The minaret vote

patricia

"Progressive Islamisation of the East End?"

Hello?

I didn't catch the Muslims or anyone else complaining when the East End was home to Britain's Jews.

So why was there no problem then but there's a massive one now?

Jewish settlement in London's East End is apparent everywhere -on Fieldgate Street Synagogue, Nelson Street Synagogue, Bevis Mark Synagogue, Beaumont Grove (South West Essex Reform) Synagogue, Princelet Street Synagogue, Sandy's Row Synagogue, Bethnal Green Great Synagogue, Brady Street Cemetery.

So why these double standards?

George

Yes, Patricia, it is part of the progressive Islamisation of the East End. Its a visual emblem of the fact that this is one of the main areas in the country in which unofficial Shariah courts have been operating.

The conservation principle that seems to govern elsewhere in the area and that has left this building “without alteration for more than 350 years” is apparently to be abandoned.

Why is this being allowed if not for the special privileges afforded to Islam?

The building’s appearance, the skyline and the pavements below are all suddenly allowed to be substantially changed, because for British politicians Islam now comes before everything.

Ravi

Well patricia when you ask I didn't catch the Muslims or anyone else complaining when the East End was home to Britain's Jews.

So why was there no problem then but there's a massive one now? I can only ask YOU if you've followed some of Melanie's articles to read the answers. Jews are benign excellent citizens of the UK who are passive in their effect on their host society. True that most Muslims are too but there is a significant Islamist number who will push their beliefs into your face until they get closer to the establishment of Shariah Law. If only ALL Muslims were like the Jews in the UK then we would have a Golden future. I make that last statement of a parody against Dr Bari of MCB who said that Muslims were being treated like the Nazis treated the Jews. He wants us to think that Muslims are the new Jews.

Commondog

Patricia.

Could be that quaint old track record of the Jewish community of refraining from threatening and preaching to their fellow citizens that Jews are superior and that theirs is the only faith which is fit to exist.

Also, they have never partaken in the demographic bullying which is seeing to it that the streets of Britain are the subject of a creeping - more of a brisk walk actually - colonisation aka multiculturalism.

The longer it takes you and your likes to wake up, the worse things will get. Hurry up please.

Ian G

It is not a double standard. The Jews did not create a major cultural shift. In fact, the Jews have always sought, as much as is possible, to seek the welfare of the people they live among. It is a religious imperative. It is in the Tenach (Old Testament, to us). Nor have the Jews sought to convert Christians. Conversion to Judaism is a very difficult process. Jews have simply sought a 'modus vivendi' with the Church. This has not always been possible, sadly, mostly because of the Church's attitude after the Emperor Constantine.

George of Currumbin

Yes i,m sure patrica would be delighted at the sight of old Churches and Synagogues metamorphosing into Mosques.
I am told by a Muslim freind that these replacements are regarded by many of his coreligionists as proof of the superiority of Islam over the old religions of the book. All in the name of multiculturalism of course.
George, you are quite right. The British elites have surrendered and believe that Islam is superior to our own culture and we must genuflect to it continuously.
The special "privileges" demanded are only essential primararily to establish that recognition of Islamic superiority becomes the mindset within British society

john doe

Patricia....When the East End was home to Jews, there were no muslims there. The Jews moved out as the Muslims moved in. What are you talking about?

Lynne T

Patricia:

I'm not a Londoner, but I'll bet there weren't a whole lot of mayors of London going down to BG in advance of elections with promises to raise money to build synagogues.

The biggest difference between the two communities is as Common Dog and Ian G suggest. The Jews came in peace, to become part of the fabric of the country. I would also venture that earlier Muslim immigrants came with the same intent. There has, however, been a shift in mindset that seems to have followed efforts by the Saudis to spread Wahhabism in the last 20 or 30 years and to ensure that the Muslim diaspora, wherever they came from, never make the break from Sharia, lest they return and create grief for the old despotic order of kings, princes and extremely wealthy sheiks like Ken's buddy Qawadari.

Dave M

There are many muslims who came to this country simply because they believed they would have a higher standard of living and participate in a more democratic society. Many came with an appreciation that the West had much to offer. However, politicians such as Ken Livingstone (and George Galloway) give an image of Britain as country wrapped up in self defeat, where maybe the elite aren't so sure democracy really does work. So, immigrants then wonder if maybe, after all, Political Islam is better than Western Democracy, so why conform? Two examples come to mind: George Galloway once became furious when Silvio Berlusconi remarked Europe had left the Islamic World behind. Yet many educated muslims will often acknowledge they would like to see more freedom and standards of living in the Middle East that compared with Europe. Also Ken Livingstone was seen to apologise over Denmark's politiicans not banning the free press when offensive cartoons were published. Why didn't he come out and state that, yes, the cartoons were offensive to many people but in free societies you can't have censorship? So, maybe someone should ask Livingstone outright if he believes in press censorship over religious issues, pertaining to Islam, Christianity or Judaism? I think he already answered that question by his conduct but now the election is in swing, shouldn't he be asked to clarify if he does actually endorse democracy and a free press?

YA

..quite nauseous preachings from Boris Johnson. Is he really such shapeless creep? "proud by Islamic ancestry..". Sorry Johnson. I am not proud neither by my bloody cannibal ancestry, nor by my bloody slave-owning ancestry, nor by my bloody religious ancestry. I am proud by spirit of those who had courage to overcome this crap.

Verity

Patricia - I don't believe there were more than half a dozen Muslims in Britain when Jews began to congregate in the East end, learn our language, start their businesses and contribute to our national wealth; and behaved with courtesy to the indigenous society which they were joining.

Certainly, they did not challenge the ancient laws of the country (any country)in which they found themselves. They did the sensible thing. They integrated, while privately conserving their own traditions.

This strikes me as an intelligent MO for emigrants everywhere. Only the Muslims fail to follow it.

The Jews do not seek to convert, even by persuasion, never mind at the point of a demented sword, because they actively do not want converts. You have to born Jewish, unlike the Muslims, who will take anything they can get.

Jews sensibly want to exist on friendly - and very contributing - terms in the host society wherever the diaspora settles, be it Britain, the US, Canada, France, Australia, wherever. Their strand of civilisation and belief intertwines with our own and they have not only contributed hugely to the national wealth, but to the national sense of humour. And to medical innovations. And they have hugely contributed philanthropically to the arts.

In other words, they joined our fold and brought means through ideas, energy and contributions to whichever country they went to.

I haven't seen any Islamics involved any of the above pursuits. Execept some Islamic female medical personnel, trained at the expense of the taxpayer on the NHS, don't want to wash their forearms up to the elbow around British patients because this is some kind of crime against their god.

I think most people can spot the difference here.

If anyone knows of a list of Muslim contributions to medicine and science in general, plus philanthropic support of the arts, I would enjoy spending a few seconds reading it.

DOV KORET

There used to be a saying 'gone/going to the dogs'. I guess London now is 'The Dogs'.

Frank Pulley

Please someone tell me that the Boris quotes in the East London Advertiser link are scurrilous and wicked verbals. Please .... Boris? Are you there? Please!

Philip

Patricia, I think there was quite some hostility to Jews when they started settling in the East End in the 1880s. They were, I believe, linked to anarchism and socialism - both seen as threats then. But this more or less wore off and Moseley, for example, could not arouse much hatred against them in the pre-World War 2 period.

jose garcia

yeah i found it quite creepy boris answers, mind you he is not running for prime minister.......

Dee Ranged

Patricia - Your'e back at last!

It must now be clearly obvious to you from the many profound comments here that we are talking about two entirely different situations.

They are not at all relative.

On the Islamisation issue, I hope to God that Boris does not become another Livingstone.

Samuel

The new Jews are the Hindus,Sikhs,Jews,Atheists,Christians,Buddhists,Wicca,and similar ! The new White Supremacists are mostly Muslims, who have as their best friends the defeatist intelligentsia of the West and, often, the opportunistic autocracies of the East.That seems to be where the 21st century new lines of battle are being drawn !

Austin Barry

How sad to hear Boris uttering the banal "Islam is peace" mantra of the cowering.

Verity

Did Boris really say, as I just read on this thread, that "Islam is peace"?

I can't stand Boris as a person, but I thought he was at least highly intelligent and educated. That he is a coward comes as no surprise, but I thought he was too smart to be a cat's paw. Doesn't he know that islam means "submission"?

So islam means "peace". I hope Boris will bow if he ever meets me, because and I am Marie of Roumania.

FinanceDoc

I can hardly add to the eloquent comments by George, Ian G, Commondog, Verity and others who have so clearly distinguished between the megalomaniacal efforts of Muslims in the UK to remake the composition and character of the country and the Jews who always and everywhere simply seek to assimilate and contribute to the society.

I do however, encourage British Jews -- increasingly the target of antisemitic violence in the UK and across Europe (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=433030&in_page_id=1770--) to give all consideration to emigrating to Israel or the US as Islamisation and the accompanying decay in the quality of life in the UK proceeds apace.

Geoff

I lived on the Isle of Dogs for 7 years until late 2003.

Apart from the "safe area" around Canary Wharf and some of the south of the isle much of the East End around Shadwell, Brick Lane, Mile End and Whitechapel were already no-go areas for non muslims.

Stabbings, sexual assaults, intimidation, church and cemetary vandalism were rife.

I doubt it is much different now and with the increasingly islamised nature of the area is set to get a lot worse.

My last involvement was with a police "initiative" to control the 100 or so muslim gangsterrorising the streets.

They lauched it in the Sunday Times but only had about 5 officers on the project which doomed it to failiure.

Most of my neighbours have sold up and moved away. Fortunately there are still enough innocents around to buy the houses hoping for a killing.

Some, I fear, will get just that!

I just wish I could drop our labour ministers off there one evening without their minders and see how they got on!

The government knows exactly what will hanned but are more interested in muslim votes than muslim vilence and no-go areas.

They are traitors to the rest of the country.

phil

What I despise most about patricia are not her despicable views but the fact that she has goaded us to scrape the bottom of the barrel by entering into dialogue with her -I have deferred from using the phrase anti semite on most occasions as I find it emotive and over used but for her it is not descriptive enough -I just wish none of you would respond to her ..not only is it a waste of time but it degrades us all .I think people who post here because they care about this world are worth more than that

Kontein TRinya

How much the Islamic world mocks at the rest of us as they explot our celebrated ideals of democracy, for which they have no resect in their own religiously totalitarian states. In no majority Islamic country does anybody enjoy the liberties they receive in the west. A wake up call, before this Jihad moves into the very control of the government of UK, which is the ultimate goal.

YA

"patricia": I love your Muslims, I love your mosques. I love your Jews, I love your synagogues. I see, everything is in order, every synagogue, every Jew is counted. You do have from where to make copy-paste. You are my girl.

Verity

Phil, I believe we are responding to Ms Phillips' post about The Minaret Vote. That is what she put it up for.

phil

Verity you are of course right and you wrote a beautiful post .but I believe we are all degraded by including this stupid woman in our thoughts ,as far as I am concerned she is beneath contempt .There are many conflicting ideas put forward here but none so filled with hate as this person -her words have no value except to fellow haters ,so why bother ,we will not change her she is lost

Commondog

Phil.

I hear what you say and I can appreciate your point.

But.

The Patricias of this world cannot be allowed the blank canvas they crave. You know and I know that their reasoning lacks solid foundation. However, their thrill is in depositing in the public domain, what they see as - and what they dearly hope will be seen by others as - incontrovertible argument.

Until their flawed thinking is pointed out, then their aim is met, and subterfuge is allowed to flourish.

The beauty is that it's a very easy task to deal with such callowness.

phil

Commondog -thanks for you remarks -my point was that on a thread like this one she is wasting her time and ours .if it were the guardian/independent site then I agree,but here the lunatics are seen for what they are -regards phil

Canadian Woman

Oh Britain, my beloved Britain. I have loved your cities, your hamlets, your cathedrals and your stoic beliefs in your remarkable past. Your careful preservation of that history of your wonderful country.

What has become of you??!!

Verity

Well, Canadian Woman, the same thing that's become of your country. That is why a group of aggressive Muslims in Canada, having viciously managed to get Ezra Levant, the owner/publisher of the wonderful Canadian Standard bankrupted through a frivolous thought-fascist law suit that he fought and lost. They are now using the same bullying tactics on MacLean's Magazine means the media are Canada are now minding their step very carefully.

Mark Steyn, a realist and a very funny one at that, will soon have no voice in his native Canada. Fortunately, he lives in the great state of New Hampshire, where they have their heads screwed on the right way.

As you know, the daft incorporation of shariah law into the law of Ontario was only beaten by the skin of the teeth (with the whole hearted support of Islamic women, it must be said).

Canada is no example of free speech, I'm sorry to say. Drip, drip, drip, drip, drip. One tiny triumph after another. Pretty soon, it adds up.

Andy Jerd

What about the progressive Judaisation of Barnet with the eruv?
Melanie Phillips is a hypocrite

phil

andy jerk ,does it get in your way.do you even know where it is .or what it is for? surely you could do better than that ,well probably not

Commondog

Andy Jerd.

Yer avin a larf incha?

Those boys with the menacing ringlets, they'll be kicking off anytime now.

Open your eyes and make a responsible assessment of the situation as it IS. Not how the socialist workers' manual says it is.

What you forward here is just a pathetic cat-call, the likes of which you need to put aside if you want to join in a grown- up debate.