Britain's slide into dhimmocracy

TD

''No people in history have ever survived who thought they could protect their freedom by making themselves inoffensive to their enemies.'' Dean Acheson

Lance Grundy

It seems Mr Cunningham and Mr Abraham are now taking on West Midlands Police with the backing of The Christian Institute. According to the www.christian.org.uk website, “lawyers for the two men have sent a strongly worded letter to the Chief Constable of West Midlands Police. The letter gives notice that the two men are entitled to bring a claim against West Midlands Police for breach of their convention rights under articles 9 and 10 of the Human Rights Act 1998.
Mr Cunningham and Mr Abraham are seeking a full and unreserved written apology, recognition that their convention rights were infringed by the conduct of the police officers, damages and reasonable legal costs.”

Anyone wishing to support the Legal Defence Fund can donate via the website.

Robin

Quite staggering. I sent this email to Sir Paul Scott-Lee, CC of the WMP.

Dear Sir Paul,

I read with disbelief that one of your Muslim PCSOs told two Christian Preachers that they could not hand out Bible leaflets in Alum Rock as they were in a Muslim area.

Can I assume from this that the policy of the West Midlands Police is now not to uphold the law of the land - which gives people the freedom to say in public whatever they want within the law - but to uphold the Islamist principle that this particular area of Birmingham is a Muslim area under Muslim law?

Can you confirm that the WMP's view is that this area is now a no-go area for Christians?

The Bishop of Rochester recently warned that Britain is developing Muslim no-go areas. Government ministers fell over themselves to say that there are no no-go areas in Britain.

Well, there is, and WMP have established that area through the actions of its officers - including the police constable who reiterated the view of your PCSO.

Yours sincerely,
Robin Davies

C Powell

Find the MP who represents the area (I believe it's Liam Byrne but I may be wrong) and ask him whether (a)he agrees with the actions of the police; (b) whether he agrees that preaching Christianity is a hate crime and, if so, to reference the legislation which made this a crime; (c) whether he agrees with the police comment that if someone lawfully carrying out their business in any part of the UK gets beaten up it is their fault and not that of the person doing the beating up; or (d) whether he believes it is the police's job to catch and prosecute the perpetrators of crimes and not the victims of it. Then publish the reply. Let's see whether the MP has any guts. Also the two Christian preachers should not just seek damages but give notice to the police that they will continue to preach - entirely peacefully and lawfully - anywhere in the UK and if they are threatened, harassed or attacked in any way in the Birmingham area, they expect the police to take the appropriate steps to protect them and prosecute those who seek to do them any harm whatsoever or they will have to consider themselves accessories to the crime (and face a possible private prosecution). Rather than rail against what is happening we need to take steps to reclaim our country. Like all bullies, the police and others will back down if confronted, just as they were forced to over the Dispatches programme.

Commondog

I was just going to pop out for a pint of evilness, but I want to be here when Patricia gets home from the day-care centre and sees this.

Think I'll stop in now and trim my nostrils.

Joe Strummer

No doubt the local British Left will praise the actions to keep these Christian " fascist imperialists and oppressors" out of the area and from harassing the local populace.

Darren

Melanie,

Thanks for this blog.

The few stories I've read on this incident curiously said next to nothing about the Ancillory officer, which increasingly for incidents such as these is the means of avoiding mention of the Muslim component to the story.

I have to add though, I'm glad a couple of blokes had the courage to go in and share their message of hope.

Augustus

This incident strikes me as a typical example of policemen passing the buck, i.e. send them away and then we won't have to deal with the consequences.

Whilst admiring their missionary zeal, one cannot help but wonder at attempts at conversion in that area of all places.

kevin o connell

This is certainly worrying, and I commend you for bringing attention to issues like this. I would still like your opinion on the fact that the British royal family is a 'no-Catholic' zone. We surely can't blame Islam for a shameful state of affairs that the British media take unquestioningly for granted.

stanley Jerusalem

What is left to desecrate in the wonderful country in which I was born and educated after the social engineers have driven everyone insane with their political correctness and their blinkered social engineering?
I feel like the man carrying the sandwich boards in Oxford Street. " The end is at hand.Prepare to meet thy doom!"
The Fat Lady is saying Kaddish over our great land as we read this..
or as Sir Edward Grey said before the Great War " The lamps are going out all over Europe, we shall not see them again in our lifetime.."
You poor suckers, get out before the Civil War commences.

Tintagel

I would like to make two points. Firstly, the most noteworthy detail of this incident is not the intolerant conduct of the Moslem policeman but, rather, that one of the Evangelical Christians is a convert from Islam which brings me to the second point. Significant numbers of Moslems, world-wide, are leaving Islam, usually as converts to Christianity, for various reasons: political and religious freedom, revulsion over the ideology of Islam, general knowledge of which has become far more public due to the Internet and, most of all, by the example of Christians. A very large number of people involved in conversions are former Moslems. They deserve our admiration, our thanks (unlike most of the useless and godless Western clergy), and our prayers.

Mark

This is outrageous and I hope that the said Christian preachers have, or will take steps through the proper channels to bring this matter to the attention of the Chief Constable, local councillors, the local MP, the local MEP and, if needs be, the local press. This kind of incident must be strangled at birth if we are not to undermine the benefits we enjoy of a 1,000 years of British history.

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Tintagel, was it Australia or New Zealand who prosecuted a former Muslim who had become a Christian preacher, for "slandering Islam" in one of his sermons. At his trial, he tried to read from the Koran to show that he had accurately described Islamic beliefs. The Muslim advisor to the prosecutor objected that it was hate speech for a non-Muslim to read passages from the Koran into the court record.

Ian G

I know I'm duplicating part of a comment made under a previous posting, but it is relevant.

Dhimmitude, Caliphate, no-go zones... a rose by any other name? Thirty years ago I used to attend an evangelical Baptist church in George Arthur Road, just off the Alum Rock Road, and it wasn't the only such church in the area. I object to someone telling me that my country is now off limits to me.

Thanks again Commondog, for your posting on that other topic.

jerry

The proper job of the "bridge officers" is to make it possible to speak your mind in Muslim areas in just the same way it is permitted to Muslims to speak their minds in general population areas. Failure to provide full reciprocity of rights at all levels of a democratic society will lead to its downfall.

field

Ahad - I think that happened in Victoria, Australia under state laws. Fortunately I think the accused were acquitted on that occasion. But acquittals do not mean that the damage is undone. Perfectly law abiding people begin to watch what they say and feel they cannot speak freely about matters that concern them. Our free societies stop operating.

This is a situation we had between about 1995 and 2002 when no politician dared utter a word about mass immigration for fear of being labelled racist. As a result in the last 15 years we have allowed in the ridiculous total of 2 million plus into a pretty crowded island with a creaking infrastructure and a housing shortage! That's what happens when free speech dies: bad decisions get made.

The West Midlands Police are a disgrace and the Queen can only dismayed to think that these are her officers.

Dave M

This is specifically why myself and hundreds of others are opposed to the construction of a huge mosque in the middle of Stoke On Trent. Despite all the remonstrations and assurances of politicians, desperate to convince the public a super sized mosque is the future for the city, common sense indicates what will happen as a result. People simply fear we will have the same no go areas in this city as Melanie pinpointed in Birmingham. Why then should this project be going ahead when many schools and care homes are being closed? What happens, moreover, if the same kind of activites or intolerance (as exposed by Channel 4) take place in smaller cities as larger, more numerous mosques appear? Incidentally I was stunned to see two articles, one published in The Mail and another in the Sun that expressed astonishment at the electorate of Stoke for reacting over the mosque. The journalists who wrote the articles jumped to their keyboards before even researching we have already been on the verge of no go areas before. So, heavens knows how things will deteriorate further if the mega mosque plan goes ahead. Besides, if we must have diversity what about building a Krishna Temple, Synagogue or Jehovas Witness hall as an alternative. But somehow maybe none of those meet the diversity specification!!

Huddo

Ahad Ha'amoratzim: It was in Australia (Victoria state). The two pastors refused to back down and eventually won. The PC govt official who lead the prosecution stated that they had still committed a crime even though they were only telling the truth. I believe the actual quote was "Truth is no defence". Once the public groundswell of anger was recognised by the state govt they backed away from the prosecution.

Roy

Since the people are so stupid as to put up with this type of thing, one wonders - at a distance - what hope there is. Doesn't her majesties government give a damn? Does it take a rising of the masses, or are even they not around any more, or more likely, at the football, at the pub, or watching BBC TV.

Paul B

My understanding is that PCSOs have no powers to make threats about arrests, (which I assume he did)

I think the Police Federation maybe interested in this, on first sight this seems like the PCSO was getting ideas well above his/her station.A gentle reminder that they are public servants, paid by the public to serve the public, not to bully and harrass the public.

Robin, thank you for the email above,I hope you don`t mind, but I copied and pasted and also sent it to the CC

Paul

The Bishop of Rochester is right. There are many no go areas in our cities. I live in Peterborough and there is a large Muslim area here where I would not venture into. I know i am not welcome there.Its not just the verbal abuse or hard looks.Ross Parker was stabbed to death here by four Muslims with an 8 inch knife. His crime? Walking his girlfriend home at one in the morning through one of these areas. He was 19 years old.He was told he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The judge condemned it as an appalling crime of race hatred.
So I do not want spineless politicians mouthing off telling me that such areas do not exist. They are the ones who has allowed unbridled immigration into this country with not a thought to integration or anything else. We are walking the primrose path to hell while the politicians are living in Henley with their pensions.

Ian Parker

Careful, Melanie. Articles such as this place you perilously close to inciting racial hatred in 21st century Britain. Now, if you had just advocated the slaughter of non-believers.......

GNO

Ahh, the West Midlands Police Force!!

The very same defenders of peace and justice who wanted to prosecute makers of a TV programme instead of terror preachers spouting hatred of gays and non-muslims that they secretly filmed.

Incidentally, this story broke a couple of days ago and unsurprisingly, I have not heard a single word of it from our other esteemed public body – the BBC.

TomTom

Stories like this illustrate why The New Establishment has become the Ancien Regime. Blair's "Thousand Year" Reich speech at Conference illustrated the hubris of Djilas' "New Class" and now their distance from the populace can only be remedied by oblivion or a coup.

This looks like the end of the Labour Party, itself a result of a Bradford mill strike in 1890s Bradford....it has degenerated into a Marxist Fraternity and completely alienated itself from both Nation and People

Dhimmitude is simply the expression of revulsion and loathing regimes express when they are failing just as when Hitler ordered Speer to destroy German cities as the Goetterdaemmerung

J. Isaacs

kevin o connell: there are regular Islamist and ultra leftist stalls outside Kilburn market in Kilburn High Road in north west London at the weekends. Sometimes they use bullhorns to promote their messages. One had always thought of Kilburn as a predominantly Irish Catholic area of London. But it is not a no go area for Muslims or anyone else. Do you happen to know what the British Catholic establishment makes of the UK's approaching dhimmitude?

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

The Christian Mission to the Jews in Whitechapel, London's East End, was founded, I believe, around the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th century (and may still be functioning), for the purpose of converting the Jews fleeing to Britain from persecution in the Russian Empire. The Christian proselytizers of those days were never "warned off" by any official of any authority in this country, and any attempt to create "no go" areas for non-Jews would never have been tolerated by an indigenous population that was totally hostile to the refugees, despite the fact that they simply wanted to be left in peace and to integrate, not to change the culture and traditions of their host country. What a contrast with the disgraceful set up today!

HAL

I am just a patsy
The Oswald in Lee Harvey
Made of my own misery
The footprints of history

Melanie Philips are you ever wrong????

Emma

Ah, poor HAL, another politically correct robot, boy they got the mind control on you all right.

Rod Munch

Meh. "Junior state official is opinionated little hitler" Hold the front page!!!

Street preachers, especially loud american ones,get a pretty bad reception wherever they go. Even in Dundee which is 99% white.

Was talking to an American evangelist in the street the other day who was saying he's always asked about Americas politics and Iraq and all the rest and it always has an adversarial tone.
That this moron was a Muslim is neither here nor there.

It not a case that there are no go areas for brits. Just no go areas for gobby American evangelists, especially ones stupid enough to be preaching the worst version of christianity to British Muslims who despite the hype, are not lacking in any identity to such a degree that the need American preachers. Communities of all faiths tend to be quite terrirtorial about these things. See Belfast/Glasgow

So the West Midlands Police did not chuck him out. So what? they need visible symbols of muslims working in the community and by all accounts can't be too picky since muslims are not rushing to aid them.
What are they supposed to do? admit Muslims have no interest in joining British society?

That they didnt apologise... Thats the serious bit.

Geoff Miller

Alum Rock has been turning into a no-go area since the early 90's. The local muslim councillors have taken over due to block voting and non muslims can expect little represenation. I know, I was a manager for Birmingham City Council and saw what was going on.

Dont forget the postal voting frauds and the judge who described Birminghams local elections as shaming even a "banana republic".

The Labour Party was all for it as the block vote was for Labour.

In return for such deals across the UK Labour is steadily giving our country away.

Verity

Jerry writes: "The proper job of the "bridge officers" is to make it possible to speak your mind in Muslim areas in just the same way it is permitted to Muslims to speak their minds in general population areas."

There are no "Muslim areas" as opposed to "general population areas" in Britain. It is one big British area. That is all. To suggest that there are "Muslim areas" in Britain is beyond idiotic. You have ceded territory in your mind, Jerry, which makes you a very dangerous individual.

Robin

GNO,

If you follow the link www.christian.org.uk you will see further links on this story, including one on the BEEB's news site.

Paul B - Croeso: you're welcome.

sebastian

I agree with Darren (below) who notes how the Mohammedan PCSO was never referred to by cult affiliation. But it's this that's so central to the issue. It's a matter of profound public interest. As such, we should know.
So here we have a Mohammedan discouraging (putting it lightly) the very freedom of conscience and speech that the law should be defending to the hilt. This looks like dereliction of duty to me. And it's shameful. Moreover, it reminds me of the treatment Christians and others risk or suffer when they do this sort of thing in Mohammedan States. Have we now not got embryonic Mohammedan colonies in Britain? Gradually introducing, by stealth and naive liberal connivance, the same Christianophobic (and other) bigotries so uncomfortably and unacceptably present in their parent Dar Al Islam? The religion of peace and tolerance indeed! Utter tosh!
WMP and its Chief Constable need thoroughly overhauling. They're a disgrace to the Force. They've turned the concept of community policing into policing for a community. The "community" in this instance, being separatist and I dare say, anti-British. It's certainly anti-Christian.
This, Rowan Williams and other foolish appeasers, is the shape of things to come. It will end, I fear, in tears.

Dave

It could certainly have been handled better but I do wonder exactly what sort of Christians we're dealing with here? Were they looking for a reaction? And I wonder if Mel would be so happy if they were forcefully making their views known outside a synagogue for example?
The Telegraph is wondering about them too.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/ukcorrespondents/faithbook/june08/birminghamevangelists.htm

Dave

Come to think of it, since this is the second story that Mel has drawn attention to in the Second City (the first being the C4 "Dispatches") perhaps she should start a new "strand" ?
The War Against the Brummies?

libertyni

kevin o'connell...as for the monarchy being a nogo area for Roman Catholics! The vatican historically, and even today, often takes a position against the interests of britain. It is dangerous as Rome is a political beast interested in political control and influence...dont you think it would be a little strange to have the head of the British forces loyal to another 'country'.

Art Cunningham

Melanie:

Thanks. I couldn't have said it better.

Art Cunningham

phil

Commondog be careful you could get arrested for upsetting Patricia and for laughing at her beliefs -I am on the run already ;)

Well said C Powell except I think you will find Liam Byrne is one of the good guys

Verity

Dave, who may not be playing with a full deck, writes: "It could certainly have been handled better but I do wonder exactly what sort of Christians we're dealing with here? Were they looking for a reaction? And I wonder if Mel would be so happy if they were forcefully making their views known outside a synagogue for example?"

He does wonder what sort of Christians we're dealing with here. Why? Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. They can say anything they like.

Dave, "we're not dealing" with any Christians. This was a reported incident. They can be any damn' sort of Christians they feel like being. No religious police can warn them away from an area of their own country; a country whose ancestors procured the right of freedom of speech for their descendants.

You also wonder "if Mel would be equally happy" ... Who said "Mel" was happy, sad, reflective or in any other mood? Are you suggesting that she would be intolerant of Christians preaching Christianity outside a synagogue? Are you mad? People are free to say whatever the hell they feel like saying, no matter what "kind of Christians" they are. Or "what kind of Jews they are" or "what kind of Hindus" they are. They can say anything they damn well feel like saying.

stanley Jerusalem

Dave - " forcibly making their views known outside a synagogue".
You're having a laugh, mate.
My late mother could take on six of them and she'd be making soup at the same time.
If you don't want to listen you walk away, you don't call the thought police - at least she wouldn't.

Robin

Dave,

It's not "The Telegraph" that's wondering which sort of Christians these two were/are, it's just one writer who clearly hasn't a clue about Christianity. All the respondents to his article had no sympathy for his viewpoint. Rightly.

david skinner

There is a great deal of posturing and hypocrisy on this thread, with people shouting about freedom of speech and that this is Britain and all the rest of it. But I put it to all those who have contributed, how would they respond to what those preachers actually said? There are many here, I guess, who would be offended by the Christian message, what the Bible actually says . It is not all soft soap but says some very unpalatable and harsh things. After all, why was Christ put to death? Why were all the apostles put to death? Why are Christians around the world being persecuted in their hundreds of thousands?

I am a Christian; I don’t believe God is mocked and if the nation turns its back on Him with bringing in humanist laws that are a stench in His nostrils, He will not sit idly by. I believe Islam is God’s judgment on Britain, the beginnings of which we are only just seeing. We have seen nothing yet.

susan

so true melanie so true, none so blind as those who cannot see!!

wonderer

Further to Verity's response to Dave, Jews do not seek to proselytise in this country in any areas. Muslims do so actively.
From what I heard from my grandfather, when Christian missionaries, particularly apostates from Judaism, did seek to convert Jews in Jewish neighbourhoods in early C20, the reaction was argumentative, occasionally provocative (eg,of a proffered tract "Is this soft paper?"), not violent.

Marwan

Surely the warning given by this member of the UK's ordnungdienst is fully consistent with our government's hot off the press Prevent strategy. If we dhimmis refrain from visiting the Dar al Islam we won't provoke radicalisation! Simple really.

Art Cunningham

Stanley Jerusalem wrote: You poor suckers, get out before the Civil War commences.

But, isn’t this “wonderful country” worth fighting for?

GNO wrote: Incidentally, this story broke a couple of days ago and unsurprisingly, I have not heard a single word of it from our other esteemed public body – the BBC.

GNO, surprisingly the BBC did a 10-15 minute TV interview with Joseph Abraham on Saturday morning whilst we were doing a public outreach at the Victoria Square in our city center here, and we both did a radio interview Saturday night from the BBC HQ here in B’ham, but for their own reasons they did not use either interview.

Rod Munch wrote: It not a case that there are no go areas for Brits. Just no go areas for gobby American evangelists…

Shouldn’t Americans also be protected by the laws. How is it that America is singled out for ill use- have we not stood by this country through thick and thin? I just don’t get it.

especially ones stupid enough to be preaching the worst version of Christianity.

As far as ours being “the worst version of Christianity” “We preach Christ crucified…” (1Co 1:23), the only hope of salvation for Muslims or anyone else. What version do you preach?

British Muslims who despite the hype, are not lacking in any identity to such a degree that they need American preachers.

The point is that they do need to hear the gospel, and we are just as happy if they hear it from British Christians. The gospel transcends all national identities…we are just playing a small part in that effort.

Dave wrote: … I do wonder exactly what sort of Christians we're dealing with here?

Christians who believe the Great Commission still applies to us today, and who believe the only hope for forgiveness of sins is the atoning work of Jesus Christ. Also, we believe every Muslim has the right to hear the gospel, and shame on us if we don’t make the effort.

Were they looking for a reaction?

No, we were looking for Muslims who the Holy Spirit has prepared to receive the precious seed of the Word of God.

And I wonder if Mel would be so happy if they were forcefully making their views known outside a synagogue for example?

We were on the High Street, in the public square, not by the mosque.

Come to think of it, since this is the second story that Mel has drawn attention to in the Second City- the first being the C4 "Dispatches," perhaps she should start a new "strand"? The War Against the Brummies? –

Help me out here Dave. Shouldn’t we who live in Birmingham also be entitled to the protection of the law?

Art Cunningham

david skinner

Art Cunningham, you, and others like you, are the surviving remnant of a once glorious and mighty faith, that has now dwindled, withered and often sold out. But God always works through a minority, a remnant. You are part of that dedicated group of believers to whom our Lord will one day say, “Well done, good and faithful servant”. So I exhort you to keep on keeping on, to remain faithful, even if you are the last one in England to do so. But I am sure there are many others like you who are still fighting the good fight. It is people like you who encourage me to keep going. I salute you.

stanley Jerusalem

Art Cunningham- The one thing a civil war is not is civil.
You don't know who are your enemies.
Of course England is worth fighting for. Not geographically, although that's what it may come to, but idealistically. After 66 years I feel safer in Jerusalem than in Kilburn or Greenford and I think I'm a bit too long in the tooth to take on a mob of deranged idiots in order to defend my wearing a skullcap in MY STREETS.
Or perhaps you would perceive my headgear to be a racially insensitive challenge like the B.A. girl wearing a tiny crucifix last year?
Our evangelists got the same shrift from what was ostensibly a member of the law- enforcing establishment.
So who will protect you if you choose to stay? Or will you organise 'protective measures' 'cos that's how it will start. Not vigilantes but 'protective measures' who become pro-active. Then we have the 'Rivers of blood'. R.I.P. Enoch Powell. I loathed what he stood for but it seems he wasn't all that far off the truth. Just adversary's identity.

Art Cunningham

david skinner wrote about:

the surviving remnant of a once glorious and mighty faith...

What it was once, it can and will be again, by the grace of God. " 2 Chron. 7:14

Logdon

Is this some kind of PC closed club? Verity complained about this last week. I posted two comments yesterday on this thread, one a copy deemed ok even in the Guardian and yet nothing. What is the point in wasting time if posters are excluded with no explanation? Rather pathetic! Maybe the real censoriousness resides at the Spectator rather than the Guardian. Shame really.

David King

Iam sickened by this as much as the rest of you,but how many of you will vote for the same cretins who have brought this on us?Most of you, thats how many. You moan and bitch but just put up with it. Well, not me,thats for sure. Melanie writes regularly on such matters regarding Muslims and Islam,and being Jewish herself has a rational concern.But when it comes to the solution,the Far right, she runs a mile, usually after calling them all the old boring insults like "NAZI"!Time really is running out for Britain and its people. Im afraid the old gang have let us down and always will. Change your voting habits, people.

stanley Jerusalem

Art Cunningham quoted the following:-

'david skinner wrote about:

the surviving remnant of a once glorious and mighty faith...'

And Art commented:-
'What it was once, it can and will be again, by the grace of God. " 2 Chron. 7:14'

Sorry to be picky friends but this particular cherry was picked from a comment to King Solomomon concerning Jews.
I don't recall seeing either Christians [or Palestinians for that matter] appearing in Chronicles. Really folks! Anachronisms at 10 paces! Tut tut!
If he is hoping it refers to Christians then I think 1 billion of them isn't a bad turnout today.
I know we're off the plot here but let's get our own houses in order.

adela

"Imagine there`s no country..
Nothing to kill or die for.."
John Lennon was a visionary after all.
There is no England anymore.

Dave

Art: Thank you so much for your kind response. Speaking personally I find it deeply depressing that people who believe in fairy stories can together create a situation that needs the police to be called because of leaflets about an imaginary higher power.
(For what it's worth I think the police volunteer was in the wrong, but then clearly so do the police and have taken action accordingly.)
This isn't a question of "dhimmitude" or "free speech" at all. I tell you what most British people would tell you, your behaviour was just rude.
In a big old city like Birmingham we all get along because we none of us set out to provoke and we all try and tolerate each other.
I find the behavour of everyone involved in this pretty pathetic, but if we need to point a finger... well you started it.

Radiosgalore

It gets even Better. according to there church website The Christian Voice is getting invlolved. full story at www.gbfchurch.co.uk Seems to have more info and more getting involved by the day

Michael Petek

I'd suspected that al Qaeda had infiltrated the police; I just didn't realise that it was so overt.

Ann

"Street preachers, especially loud american ones...Just no go areas for gobby American evangelists"

What a disgusting racist rant.

Ann

"But I put it to all those who have contributed, how would they respond to what those preachers actually said?"

I am an atheist, and I would be quite happy for them to say their piece. It is ENTIRELY about freedom of speech, and to say otherwise and claim that we are hypocrites for objecting to its erosion by one particular intolerant group is nonsense.

New Boy

Hi, very lively and entertaining blog.

'When one dog barks, he easily finds others to bark with it'
(Midrash: Exodus Rabbah 31:9)

Dave M

All of this is inevitable in a multicultural society. Also, as I recall stating some years ago, the reason the U.K. and Europe adopted multiculturalism per se is really due to the collapse of the USSR. That led to the U.S. being the only remaining superpower. Since the U.S. is itself a country of immigrants, the E.U. has been heavily influenced to follow the same pattern of social development which is why we opened our borders to the Middle East. The U.K. has also followed along those lines. But my argument has always been this: The U.S. as a superpower is unproven by the authority of time (even more so the E.U.). Multiculturalism has likewise failed repeatedly in the past but it takes more than 40 years for that process to take place (i.e. The Roman Empire). Thus, the U.S. has also only been a global power for some 40 years. Whereas the Romans were the dominant force for some 400 years!! My theory is radical Islam will get a stronger foothold in the U.S. because the U.S. will struggle to reconcile multiculturalism and equality with the real dangers they face from within. Take the 9/11 attacks: These were planned from within the U.S. and Europe, not in Iraq. Terrorists trained to pilot planes to be used as missiles within the U.S. itself. So, not to beat about the bush I believe multicultualism is a far greater threat to the free world than communism ever was. Multiculturalism is effectively destroying national identity and culture to create tribal societies, divided on religious, ethnic lines. Governments, Police and Politicians are paralysed by the scourge of defeatist political correctness and the insane view all societies are equal. Clearly all societies are not equal since some of us are free democratic societies and others are not. I mean, did the Classical Greeks when they fought Persia really believe those who surrounded their islands were equal to their democracies? Or did they believe democracy was superior and worth defending? The problem is I think the West has made such a serious, crucial mistake, history will never forgive in the long run. The outlook appears very bleak indeed.

stanley Jerusalem

DOG BOY - Thank you for your contribution to the discussion.
It's good to know all those years of studying and sacrifice weren't entirely wasted.
Your teachers would be proud of you.

stanley jerusalem

New Boy [Dog Boy]
"Blessed be those who have nothing to say and cannot be persuaded to say it". [ after Shimon Hatzadik Pirkei Avot I,17]

manners

I seem to recall from once being a law student that the police have a duty to keep the peace. Any lawyers can correct me on this but as I recall if there is a confrontation, in order to keep the peace, the police can act either agsinst those who are provoking it or those who are provoked.

This presumably is on the eminently sensible basis that it may be easier to remove two obnoxious herberts from the scene than an much larger angry mob.

I recall feeling this was rather unfair on the herberts, (and maybe it is) but (if I'm right) had the police in this case in fact arrested the preachers (which they didn't do of course), this would not really have represented a new departure from what is probably a centuries old practice.

Talk of dhimmitude in the circumstances or of AQ infiltrating the police is frankly beneath scorn.

Perhaps no one comes out of this well, but as for the preachers, I'm with Dave on this. Being rather English, it does seem to me that it may have been rather bad manners on their part.

And manners, as I would have thought Melanie might be one of the first to say, are rather important in a civilised society.

Mike Woodman

Dave M: can you give references to your research material. I think your thesis is very interesting.

New Boy

Thank you for your interesting quote our stan in jerusalem. By the way, have you seen ann frank the musical? I loved it!

stanley Jerusalem

Dog Boy
Tasteless but informative -
a self-loathing Jew.

Verity

Dave M - This statement does not make sense: "Since the U.S. is itself a country of immigrants, the E.U. has been heavily influenced to follow the same pattern of social development which is why we opened our borders to the Middle East"

1. The original immigrants to the United States were monoracial and monocultural - or bicultural only if you consider Ireland a separate civilisation. Other peoples mainly N Europeans, came over a century later, when the Anglo culture had taken root. They adapted to this culture. Then came Jewish immigrants and Italians at the end of the 19th/beginning 20th Centuries. (And, of course, there were the unwilling immigrants brought over in chains, and, out of self-defence, they developed a culture of their own, but now they are in the main, assimilated into the major culture.

2. The EU has been "heavily influenced to follow this pattern of development"? The EU countries have been "developed" for almost 2,000 years. They have no need to adopt the culture that began around 300 years ago. [Disclaimer: this isn't anti-American. I love the United States, but your comment makes no sense.]

They opened their borders to the Middle East because Pompidou et Cie had made an insane decision to form "Eurabia". Oriana Fallaci wrote about this.

Infiltrating millions of fast-breeding Muslims into Europe was deliberate, moonbat, planning but it had nothing at all to do with the organic development of the United States.

Commondog

The penis: mightier than the sword

wonderer

If "manners" has his way Muslims will continue to proselytise in Christian areas, or let's say non-Muslim ones, and they do, mainly because the rest of the population are too tolerant, or apathetic, to make a fuss. Anyway, if his view is correct, why are the officers concerned to be given re-education on hate crime.

Joe

Multi-culturalism sounds nice in theory, but in practice it just does not work.

At best, we gain more food options. but beyond that, all the different ethnic groups tribe up with themselves.

And for Europe in particular...the real losers in multi-culturalism is the host nations indigineous population - ie-whites [yes whites are indigienous to europe..its your land people, even if it doesnt seem like it anymore].

Dave

@wonderer: "If "manners" has his way Muslims will continue to proselytise in Christian areas, or let's say non-Muslim ones, and they do, mainly because the rest of the population are too tolerant, or apathetic, to make a fuss."

I have NEVER seen a Muslim proletysing in Birmingham. Christians? Yes. Muslims? No.

"Anyway, if his view is correct, why are the officers concerned to be given re-education on hate crime."

The Muslim Community Officer is being "re-educated" He handled the situation badly and was wrong about "hate crime" laws. His supervisors are making sure he doesn't make that mistake again.

@Joe: Perhaps. But Birmingham is a great city with a huge mix of cultures that do mix. (To a much greater extent than other cities such as Liverpool for example)
There's much more to multiculturalism than a good curry. You might want to ask your nearest hospital for an ethnic breakdown of its surgeons for example.

wonderer

@Dave. I haven't been to Birmingham but I have certainly seen Muslims proselytising in London in areas you wouldn't thini of as Muslim.

Ann

"Any lawyers can correct me on this but as I recall if there is a confrontation, in order to keep the peace, the police can act either agsinst those who are provoking it or those who are provoked"

Well, you can sue your law teachers because they were telling you porkies. The police are NOT entitled to threaten people who are exercising their legal freedom of speech.

Dave

Ann: Don't be silly. You try dressing up as a Nazi and giving an anti-semitic speech in the middle of a synagogue. Let me know how you get on, I think the police will be very interested in you and "I'm exercising my right to free speech" will be a less than useful defence.

Mr. Beer

Why do you Europeans hate yourselves so much? Someone else here already posted about your heritage: white and Christian. I am not saying this culture has to remain static and inflexible, but, people who come to YOUR country must adapt to your traditions, not vice-versa. To do nothing, actually, to aid these lunatics, is sowing the seeds of your own destruction.
Do the French, British, etc..really hate themselves and their cultures THAT much that you'd want to see it vanish?
Replaced by EURABIA and Londinistan?
I was in London about two months ago; there were more women walking around in veils and hijabs than I've seen in my trips to Turkey! Jeez....

Ann

"Ann: Don't be silly. You try dressing up as a Nazi and giving an anti-semitic speech in the middle of a synagogue. Let me know how you get on, I think the police will be very interested in you and "I'm exercising my right to free speech" will be a less than useful defence"

Dave, what nonsense you do talk. Your analogy is utterly silly. They were not dressed up as mass-murderers and they were not inside a mosque and they were not inciting racial hatred. They were on a public footpath in a British city.

You want to surrender your country and your liberties to immigrants who have nil respect for your rights and your culture? How pathetic. I do not.

Joe

Yea, mr.beer...I think only outsiders of Europe notice how pathetic the native Europeans are.

Myself, im a American who lives in the UK off and on depending on what my job requires of me [im in the tech field..offices in both uk and america].

Anyways, as a outsider myself...going to the UK and seeing the native Brits [whites] bending over backwards to accomadate and PLEASE foreighners is so sad to watch-its just downright pathetic. They go so far as to shit on thier own culture and history, while promoting immigrants culture over thier own.

I really dont get it. Ive traveled to quite a few countries outside Europe aswell...Muslim nations mostly, and some East asian nations...and oh boy...if you'd ever, EVER try to pull what the Muslim immigrants in the UK pull over there...you would have your house bombed, and your family killed in a nana-second. If you tried it in East asia - they would just laugh at you. The idea to them, of moving aside and letting foreighners take over large areas of thier cities culturally is not something that would happen.

Anyways, yes europeans are a pathetic lot nowadays.

Alan Tye

talk about the enemy within ! why dosnt Britain wake up and see what is happening !before it is too late ! or is it already ?

Neil Saunders

Good to see that Ann has slapped down Dave, that smug, intellectually dishonest, Guardian/Independent/BBC-brainwashed "useful idiot" for the Islamic takeover of Britain and Europe.

Ann

Thanks, Neil, much appreciated.

manners

I think Ann and Neil Saunders owe Dave and I an apology. Turns out that the intellectual dishonesty lies on the other side and that Ann has been sounding off on something about which she knows nothing. Turns out my recollections of studies long ago which were so promtly slapped down were correct.

The power to arrest to prevent a breach of the peace is a common law power about which there is quite a bit of case law going back over many years.

Let's give a three recent examples.

Kelly v Chief Constable of Hampshire involved a hunt saboteur who had been arrested to prevent a breach of the peace when a breach of the peace seemed imminent. Unknown to the policeman oncerned the huntsman involved had in fact already assaulted the saboteur, but the policeman acted to prevent a confrontation. The arrest was held to be lawful. In giving his judgement Lloyd LJ said, “If, on the information known to (the constable), he has reasonable cause to believe that a breach of the peace is about to occur, he is entitled to arrest one or more of the participants to prevent that occurrence.”

(Laporte) v Chief Constable of Gloucestershire is along similar lines. In this case it was said that, “The important feature to note about the ability to take preventative action is that its justification is not derived from the person against whom the action is taken having actually committed an offence, but based upon a need to prevent the apprehended breach of the peace. In some situations, preventing a breach of the peace will only be possible if the action is taken which risks affecting a wholly innocent individual.”

R v Ramsell, a case that was decided around the high watermark of human rights law stresses that the power should only be exercised in limited circumstances, but there is no suggestion that it no longer exists. In this case Buxton LJ said. “It is not surprising to find that, when a person is not himself going to be violent but is simply being arrested in order to prevent violence on the part of others, such a power ought to be envoked only in very narrow circumstances.”

Apologies please.

Ann

"If, on the information known to (the constable), he has reasonable cause to believe that a breach of the peace is about to occur"

Irrelevant and immaterial. Hunt saboteurs have attacked hunters in the past, have declared publicly that they WILL attack hunters, and those involved in this case could reasonably be presumed to be there with the express purpose of preventing the hunt by means that are likely to involve physical violence.

The two preachers were not members of a group known to have been involved in initiating violence against Muslims in the past, had no previous form personally, and therefore there was NO reasonable cause to suspect them of any such thing. Look up 'reasonable cause'.

The rest can be disposed of similarly.

Note the reference to NARROW circumstances, in conjunction with reasonable cause.

Citing all kinds of irrelevant matters will not do. I await your apology.

Ann

PS. And none of your cases even attempts to address the explicit threat by the PCSO (a stupid title if ever there was one), to wit: If you come back and are attacked, it will be your fault.

Neil Saunders

As I'm sure you know, Ann, there are two basic modes of leftist dishonesty in the face of the pejorative social changes their policies often bring about:

1) To deny that the harm is occurring at all, or - if this strategy fails - to redefine it as a benefit, albeit one whose subtle merits are unappreciated by an ungrateful and doltish public;

2) To claim that some novel outrage is merely "business as usual" and then to cite fraudulent precedents.

manners

Ann

Unfortunately this thread has now fallen off the first page and therefore off most people's radar. So briefly...

This is completely hopeless. I state what I believe the law to be. You know nothing about it, but effectively call me, or at least my lecturers, liars. I provide you with 3 judgements (I could have provided many others) confirming the legal position is more or less as I had thought it was, and ask for an apology. You reply aggressively, so far as I can see, don't dispute the law, and then... wait for it, ask for an apology yourself..

Brass neck or what?

Brian O' Connor

You have no points on the law or anything I have said, but still feel able to question my integrity. Pretty disreputable in my view.

manners

The reference in my earlier post to Brian O'Connor should have been to Neil Saunders. Apologies to Brian.

Neil Saunders

To manners

I claim no expert knowledge of the law, but I note that, in your zeal to absolve the Muslim PCSO, you make a spurious analogy between a hunt saboteur (engaged in a clear act of provocation/obstruction in relation to what was at the time a lawful activity) and the Christian preachers (going about their lawful business and intending no harm to anyone). There is no moral equivalence between the two scenarios, and absolutely no justification for the PCSO to accuse the preachers (falsely) of a "hate" crime, and to compound this by refusing to take action should they be physically attacked.

This is a concrete instance of the kind of spurious precedent that I have already referred to.

manners

You misrepresent me, possibly intentionally, but more likely because you are blinded by set of preconceived ideas and by a loathing for muslims and for anyone with a view of the world that is a little more liberal than your own.

So to correct a few misapprehensions:

“zeal to absolve the Muslim PCSO” - I am not seeking to absolve the police or the PCSO. Whilst I think we need to be careful as to what exactly happened here, I suggested that perhaps no one (which would includes the police) comes out of this well. I also suggested I had some sympathy for anyone arrested in the theoretical circumstances I described. So not trying to absolve anyone.

“spurious analogy” - I'm not making any analogy. I was trying to state the law. My source was a textbook. I quoted three cases and the statement of the law in each of those. I could have quoted from many more going back to the beginning of the last century, and probably with a little more research before that. You make much too much of the facts of one case and ignore the others.

Now for your views:

“no moral equivalence” - Maybe so, but not really relevant. The question is what the law is.

“no justification for the PCSO to accuse the preachers (falsely) of a “hate” crime” Maybe not. What we know is that the police have spoken to the PCSO about what a hate crime is, so maybe that is what he did and it was inappropriate – I don't think we can be confident of the facts and I don't know the law, and I suspect neither do you.

But, assuming you are correct, the point here would surely be that the police seem to have acted to try to ensure it doesn't happen again.

We come back therefore to the point of my original post, that to say this somehow amounts to a “helter-skelter slide into dhimmitude or of Al Q infiltrating the police is ridiculous.

Robin

Don't know if many are now reading these comments on this topic, but I had reply yesterday from the WMP Chief Constable's Office as follows:

Dear Mr Davies,

As a result of correspondence received on behalf of Mr Cunningham and Mr Abraham appealing our decision in relation to their complaint the matter is now subject of an internal review by West Midlands Police.

In light of this we are unable to comment on the details of this case however West Midlands Police would like to reassure all communities that there are not any 'no go' areas in the West Midlands Police area and we will defend the rights of the individual to freedom of expression and religious faiths.

Yours sincerely

Darren Miles
Chief Inspector
Staff Officer to the Chief Constable
West Midlands Police
Tel: 0845 113 5000 Ext: 2012

d.miles@west-midlands.pnn.police.uk

Neil Saunders

To manners

You would have to clarify what you understand by the adjective "liberal" before I (and other readers of this forum) have any real understanding of your remark about "anyone with a view of the world more liberal [than mine]".

Liberal, it seems to me, is one of those slippery words, like "liberty" or "democracy", that mean vastly different things to different people.

The problems of definition aside, I would assume (on my own understanding of the term) that I am somewhat more liberal than people who think it appropriate and morally defensible to amputate thieves' hands and feet, to bury 15-year-old girls who have been raped up to their necks and then to stone them to death as "adulteresses", to gouge men's eyes out, to behead criminals in public (or in private for that matter), to give (as happened recently in Iran) a man 1000 lashes before encouraging the family of his alleged victim to stab him repeatedly and then to hang him from a crane, or to push walls onto alleged or proven homosexuals.

I cannot understand your caution in respect to "what exactly happened" in the case currently under discussion; it is characterised by a rare but surely unmistakable clarity. If I were not utterly persuaded of your unwavering integrity I might conclude that you are trying to suggest for purely rhetorical purposes that there is some kind of ambiguity, obscurity or moral unclarity in this issue.

Despite your unconvincing denial, a spurious analogy was precisely what you were making. Your fig-leaf of merely "stating the law" (as if this were somehow inconsistent with making any kind of analogy) is laughably transparent.

I accept your point that, from a narrowly legal view, moral considerations are "not strictly relevant"; but, like other posters on this forum (and Melanie herself) I am not viewing the matter from a purely legal point of view.

It is very magnanimous of you to concede that "maybe" the PCSO was wrong to accuse the preachers (who were doing nothing either illegal or intendedly provocative) of a "hate crime". (We can leave to one side for the moment the issue of whether the law should be compelled to recognise in general such controversial notions as "hate" crimes. There are those of us, myself included, who regard this as a sinister development.)

I suspect that the heavily politicised West Midlands police force would have been only too happy to allow Muslim PCSOs to interpret the law to suit their own purposes had this case not been forcibly brought to public attention. The only appropriate course of action would be to dismiss the PCSO forthwith.

You do not think that this represents a "helter-skelter slide into dhimmitude or of Al Q[aida] infiltrating the police" and dismiss the notion as ridiculous. I have no idea whether any radical Islamic organisation has infiltrated the police, although the idea is not self-evidently absurd to me, but I do think that we are witness the as yet slow but inexorable restructuring of our public institutions in an Islamic direction. Whether you consider this to be a positive or negative development will depend entirely on your attitude towards Islam itself.

Headless chicken

Neil Saunders, as briefly as possible.

I think your inabililty to see why anyone might feel uncertain as to what happened is symptomatic. Like your stuff on liberalism and your anti-Islam boilerplate, I think it rather illustrates the point I was making in the first para of my previous post.

Read the Daily Mail article though. I was going to say it's the preachers' story, but it's not even that really. We don't have a full account of what happened from the preachers and we don't have any account from the police, from any member of the (presumptive/alleged) muslim mob, or from any neutral member of the public. So caution perhaps?

On "spurious analogies", I'm not going to get into how the common law works. However I suppose your argument in essence is that Kelly (ie the Kelly case) should not be followed because, crudely, while hunt sabateurs are fair game, preachers are not. Fair enough, I'm not sure I like it very much, but it's an argument. The problem is you ignore all the other cases.

We're in danger of forgetting however that in fact nobody was arrested anyway. The point I have been making is that in the right circumstances arrest of the preachers might have been one of the options open to the police and there would have been nothing new in that.

But the police didn't arrest anyone and we don't know why cos we don't really know what happened. It may be that in the end they were able to difuse the situation by persuading the preachers to move on. But we don't know.

But let's say we put all this to one side and look only at what we've been told,. Then what?

MP thinks it represents a "helter-skelter slide into dhimmitude". I think this is nonsense. Overblown nasty nonsense, the purpose of which is to demonise muslims and to inculcate fear and prejudice. I note you don't really defend this (ie MP's) view.

Michael Petek (above) thinks it's evidence that Al Q are overtly infiltrating the police. I don't think it's evidence of anything of the sort. Again it's just about working up fear and hatred, and taking, it seems to me, pleasure in hateful fantasies.

Dave

Ann
Bless, you've missed the point really. Reductio ad absurdum and all that.
You appeared to be claiming "Free Speech is all". Turns out what you really meant was "Free Speech for people like me"