Not fit to lecture anyone

Fabio P.Barbieri

You evidently know nothing about the Catholic Church, and built up your views of it from such trustworthy sources as the press and the BBC - which you quote with gay abandon. What a spectacular display of disciplined and insightful reading! From what marvelous sources of sterling integrity! I could explain what the Cardinal's real problem was with this man, but I cannot be bothered, since your tone of self-fighteous hatred guarantees that you would not listen. Instead, let me tell you where you stand and who you stand with. You stand with everything that this weekly spends its time fighting: the fanatical, secularist, state-mongering, Jew-bashing, Christian-bashing, Israel-hating, pro-Hamas, Jeremy Bowen left. Congratulations on your efficiency in its service. When they came for the Catholics, you did not just stand aside, you joined them. When they come for the Jews, will you do the same? They are the same people, you know, beginning with Brutish Broadcasting Creeperation. And you just showed that you are easily taken in by their lies, when they do not concern Jews.

Stephen Pollard

And you, sir, are clearly unable to understand English. At what point did I even mention Catholicism, let alone attack it? I was attacking the behaviour and integrity of the Cardinal. Quite how that is construed as Catholic bashing is beyond me.

THX1138

Did you hear my hero Dawkins on earlier I would have loved to hear him debate directly with Cormac Murphy O'Connor. As far as I'm concerned Stephen you can stick it to the pompous Cardinal & his bigoted evil church as much as you like & I for one will cheer you on.

Levy Malone

Stephen.

If another Catholic representative had given the same speech - someone not involved in the Fr Hill affair - would you still take umbrage at the points raised?

THX 1138.

Are all Catholics, bigoted and evil?

Ian C

Fabio - as a fellow Catholic I think that you have over-reacted here. I can understand Stephen's point while accepting his unfamilairity with the way I am sure that the Cardinal tried (but failed) to rectify the situation at the time. There can be no excuses for what has happened (and sadly is probably still happening today in a few isolated incidents). But Stephen, you can be sure that CMO'C would be far from happy with the outcome of his actions and indeed he has said as much. To continue to hold it against him in an unforgiving manner is to assume that he has no guilt or shame in the matter. I could add that that is not a very christian attitude, but you know what I mean. Just because he has made (grave) mistakes in the past does not mean he does not have worthwhile things to say. If that were the basis of man's judgement of each other, noone would get a second chance at anything. And Fabio's remarks I am sure, while zealous, are sourced in those origins. You do however, occasionally and suprisingly because it seems out of character the rest of the time, give the impression in your writing of an innate hate and such impressions do not become anybody. Knowing you to be Jewish and having followed your blogs for perhaps a couple of years, makes your remarks above seem as if that has something to do with it. My own personal position on the original subject the Cardinal was addressing is that we should be like America and leave religion to those for whom it means something. It causes unnecessary complications to try to take all religious sensitvities into the public arena of the State and politics. Equally the state should leave people frr to have Christmas trees and lights and not impose a secular nature. But we should be very mindful of our Judaeo-Christian origins in setting standards in public life as there is much to gain whether one is religious or not. I am not therefore defending the Cardinal's original argument.

Stephen Pollard

Ian C: You make a fair point and it's well taken.
Levy Malone: I think the text of his lecture is interesting, and of course I wouldn't take umbrage. I am not in the least concerned here with his argument, but with him.

THX1138

Levy- Of course not all Catholics are bigoted & evil just deluded like all believers in imaginary friends. The catholic church however I believe is one of the most pernicious & evil organizations that mankind has had the misfortune to encounter.

All It's crimes against humanity are too numerous to mention but here is a few: Millions have died in it's wars; millions continue to die and live in misery due it's ridiculous rules on birth control & sex; the support of fascist regimes around the world including it's active & tacit support of the Nazis & the Holocaust; it's suppression of science & any dissenters through to it's modern crimes of covering up sexual abuse by it's own priests against children in it's care & subjugation of women as second class citizens.

Can you tell me any other organization with so much blood & repression on it's hands ? The likes of al qadea are but amateurs in human misery compared to the evil that is the catholic church.

Levy Malone

THX1138

I would find it difficult to excuse people who follow and support any evil and bigoted organisation such as you describe; to offer the sop that you think it possible to be Catholic and at the same time, be free from evil and bigotry - well it just doesn't sit right. Try and stay honest.

It has for some time, been the easiest game to play, to reel off this - the pun inescapable - litany, berating religions generally, but Catholicism in particular.

I find it unfortunate rather than offensive that you see fit to speak in such terms, about a faith which, with all its faults, has as its main and abiding concern, the need for justice, understanding and peace.

There are millions of Catholics in this world today who, are actively working toward these ends, and a greater number than that - including myself - who wish them well in their efforts. Delusions like this: we need.

I'm puzzled as to how the rules on birth control and sex, whether one agrees with them or not, might cause people to die, as you assert? Unless your argument is that, in its insistence, the Church is bringing lives into existence which are one day destined to die? Your preference then, would be a call for anti-life, a death cult perhaps?

I hate long posts, so if you return, then maybe we can exchange on some of your other points.

Ian C

THX, not for the first time you are displaying a remarkable lack of education and awareness of what it means to have an open mind. As a consequence you have a completey unbalanced understanding of the costs and benefits of the history of the church and its influence on your life and the life of the world, not just of this country. Ignorance is not bliss it's ignorance.

THX1138

Levy & Ian - I will respond later if that's Ok, busy this afternoon. Levy as a starter I would say that millions have lived & died in misery of AIDS, STD's & over population in 3rd & 2nd world countries because a bunch of celibate men (sometimes) have decided that god doesn't like condoms how do they know may I ask ?

Levy Malone

THX1138

The main issue as I understand the position of the Church here is that sex should not be regarded casually but should be something which takes place between a married couple, to the exclusion of others.

The AIDS virus and other STDs are problems which will not go away, and for which the advice of the Catholic Church has provided an answer. Even in the event that AIDS etc were eradicated by medicine, the nature of this world is that new diseases would evolve to take their place.

That so many people choose to reject the advice of the Church, is a matter of great concern and one which is continually being addressed.

Now then, these wars?

THX1138

Levy -I made loads of points earlier but the long tentacles of the Vatican & it's suppression of truth seemed to have reached the Spectator boards & I didn't make the cut. I don't know if I have the energy for it all over again.

All I would say to your post is that millions of people would appear to be dying of entirely an preventable disease & yes dieses that would go away if men wore condoms but thanks to the evil advice of the catholic church too many don't

To quote from Christopher Hitchens

"Cardinal Alfonso Lopez de Trujillo the vatican's president of the Pontifical Council for the family, carefully warning his audience that all condoms are secretly made with microscopic holes, through which the AIDS virus can pass? Close your eyes and try to picture what you might say if you had the authority to inflict the greatest amount of suffering in the least number of words"

And that pack of lies from a prince of the church

Did you really mean to imply that it's fine for people to die of AIDS because the nature of the world is that some other disease will probably get them anyway. Ahh those christian values..

Look you got me going lets see if we can do the wars tomorrow & my thought for the day is did anyone ever grow a new arm at Lourdes?

Fabio P.Barbieri

I posted a response yesterday that does not seem to have been received.

Levy Malone

THX1138

It appears you did rather let yourself get agitated but never mind.

I have never visited Lourdes, but from reports of those close to me who have, it sounds like a very special place which continues to inspire some people to acts of great selflessness, to others it provides comfort. Most important of all, it provides a sense of peace to those who have nothing left but hope.

If, as your latest question would seem to suggest, you seek to belittle such provision, then I think I understand and appreciate your position.

THX1138

Levy - False hope is no hope at all. Now if someone had grown a new arm well that would be something to take notice of but that's not going to happen is it. Shall we call it a day?

Levy Malone

THX1138

You seem to have a fixation about arms?
I took your original scenario about arms being re-grown, to be flip rhetoric but did you really want a response to such an outlandish proposition?

Also, you tend to think in terms which inflate the empirical, and this is I think why you are having difficulty tolerating ideas other than you own, of which there are many.

I should add that besides the positive effects of Lourdes I mentioned previously, there are many accounts of illnesses abated and health returning to pilgrims, none of which of course, could be proven in the terms you recognise. But again, how do you know that your's is the one and only way to make sense of this world?

Aside from this though, you made several sweeping assertions that the Catholic faith is pretty much the cause of most of the evils which stalk the planet. I would argue to the contrary that this world would be a much nastier place were it not for the continuing work of the Church, most of which goes unreported and is therefore ignored.

THX1138

Levy -Actually the re-growing arms goes to the heart of the matter for me people might go to Lourdes & get over a nasty little cough or something if god can do that why not something really stunning like re grow the arm of an amputee why is that an "outlandish proposition" didn't god make the sun go backwards for Our lady of Fatima re growing an arm or two should be a piece of cake.

Of course they can't be proven in my terms because just that they can't be proven what other rational terms are their. The way I make sense of the world is the way the world really works through laws of nature not superstition & blind expectance of rules handed down from a man in Rome not god but a man.

I believe that religion is the root of most of the evil in the world & that catholic church along with islam is the greatest evil that stalks the world.

Levy Malone

But spiritual faith is not something you can call upon to sort out a problem, like dyno-rod.

I maintain that the hostility that people show towards religion, usually stems, initially from a deep dissapointment and resentment that we can't order a take-away miracle. Your 'arms' insistence would be an example.

On the rebound so to speak, there is then formed a passing acquaintance with the mainstream and piecemeal mythology which posits some pre-religious world of peace and harmony, which was broken up when people started to 'do' God.

The truth is that this always was and is still, a savage world, the extremes of which we are spared, almost wholly due to the works of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

THX1138

Levy-Good debate thanks for engaging.