I found an undiscovered country: Great Britain

David Short

I'm not sure this writer has really put across anything meaningful, other than that there are no Asians in remote Scotland.

Did he expect there would be?

He also oddly chooses Scotland as a place to talk about Britishness, when Scotland is less British and more anti-English now than it has been for decades.

As for there being no songs about Britain, he shows his ignorance.

Has he not heard of, or heard, 'Jerusalem'?

I would also suggest that 'I Vow To Thee My Country' is a British patriotic song, as well as hymn to Christianity, as are many stirring hymns written during Victorian times and at the height of the British Empire (the existence of which explains the presence of the writer in this country).

It's no coincidence the Princess of Wales had the latter song sung at her funeral.

sarfraz

hello thanks for your comments but I think you have somewhat missed the point of the article. Firstly the fact that there are hardly any Asians in remote Scotland is not the substantive theme of my piece. Secondly yes I know that there is anti English feeling in Scotland but my piece was a reflection on feeling British and my time in Durness made me think about being British which is what prompted the article. Thirdly not only have I heard OF 'Jersusalem' I was present at the Last Night of the Proms where it was sung this past weekend. I did not say in my article that there were no songs about Britain, I said there were no songs that made me feel that I had a stake in this country, in the way that Woody Guthrie sings about America. The hymms you cite may well be stirring but to quote Morrissey they say nothing to me about my life. And finally my presence in this country has more to do with an enterprising father than it does any hymm no matter how stirring and inspiring. So while I thank you for taking the time to write, I do feel you have almost heroically failed to get the gist of my piece. Best. Sarfraz

David Short

OK, I looked back and here is the quote: 'Growing up, I wondered why there was not a British version of Guthrie’s song, something to reassure me that I had a stake in this country'.

I want to be as polite as you are, but a quote like this talking about a 'stake in this country' makes me wonder why on earth the Speccie publishes this stuff.

I was born in a cold water, no bathroom, Tyneside slum in the Fifties in a class-ridden British society, and certainly had no 'stake' that society.

As for: 'I do feel you have almost heroically failed to get the gist of my piece'.

You are right. That's why I my opening sentence was: 'I'm not sure this writer has really put across anything meaningful'.

Perhaps I am just stupid.

I have only ever been to Edinburgh, and I went there the first time simply to attend the TV festival there, as a media hack.

It was sometime in the early Nineties, and I had never crossed the border even though I was born one county away, and we as a family were always used to Scottish influences (I am part McPherson, and many Geordies have Scottish blood), and eagerly read [past participle] every Sunday, the Sunday Post, a good and pious newspaper, with the Broons and Oor Wullie for the children.

To me as a child in the North East, Scotland was this friendly country to the north. We never needed to visit it. We never went further than the local beach in our home town anyway.

There had been a lot of inter-marriage with the Scottish people and the local people because our town was a local holiday resort for Scottish people coming 'south'.

I had probably visited 25 countries before I first visited Scotland, and I was probably in my late thirties.

And even now I have only ever been to Edinburgh. I was amazed by the place the first time I stood there on Princes Street and could see mountains.

One night at one of the Edinburgh TV Festivals, without a hotel room within reasonable distance (I'd been put in Falkirk), I realised I could simply get on the last train and go to Newcastle and take a taxi from there to my mother's house, then return in the morning.

My past is a past where Scotland and England had no quarrels, a past where you could have fond thoughts of a country you'd never been to, and didn't feel you needed to visit.

That is a past time. There is a baleful type of Scottishness now.

As I'm sure people at the Spectator know.

David Short

I'm doing a PS.

If you were 'doing some telly' up there, you should have let us readers know.

The piece came across as just some 'un'savvy Asian person visiting a remote part of Scotland, out of pure fun.

If you were there just as a visitor, without the kow tow and agreeableness you might get as at tellyperson with a hungry and thirsty crew, do tell us. Did you go there as a private person, or were you making a telly programme?

We await your response.

Chris

Hi Sarfraz,
I enjoyed your article very much. Your trip to Sutherland obviously affected you deeply. The scenery is spectacular, but the Gaelic culture that clings on in remote parts of Scotland is also fascinating. I recommend that you try to hear some traditional Gaelic singing on your next visit - you will hardly feel that you're still in Britain!

Mike

Dear Sarfraz,
You say "the hymms you cite may well be stirring but to quote Morrissey they say nothing to me about my life. "

Why not? Why, must we now invent new songs for you because you refuse to accept the great ones we have already? And of course that means the indigenous population must also be deprived of them because they are not "inclusive" enough. That is what is truly p*sses many many indigenous people off about newcomers to these Islands who want to take ownership of this land without respecting the people who came before them.

sarfraz

hello
David: There isn't enough space here to fully explain what I meant by a 'stake in this country' but if you are interested I would suggest you read my childhood memoir 'greetings from Bury Park' which I think you may find illuminating. Borrow it from the library if you don't want me to give me any cash.
I was in Durness to make a Radio 4 documentary about John Lennon who holidayed there as a young boy. It was just me and a producer, no huge equipment and so on, just a tiny machine to record sound. You can hear the programme on October 12th.

Chris: thank you for your kind thoughts and yes I would love to go again and maybe inflict soem singing on the shocked locals!

Mike, to quote Mr Winner, calm down dear. I don't want to invent any new songs for me thanks very much and I dont want to rob you of anything either. And I am not sure about 'newcomer'- I've been here 33 years and my dad came in 1963. But more substantively the point is surely not to deprive anyone of anything but also to realise that what may appeal to you may not appeal to others, that doesnt mean you cannot enjoy them but I am allowed to say it doesnt speak to me. And the reason I even got to this topic is because someone had commented on why Jerusalem and a couple of other songs would not suffice as songs about England. Honestly you are finding things to get irritated about that are not in my article or my head.
best. sarfraz

Wily Trout

This article seems to have provoked some responses of home-grown anger and alienation. Perhaps these are now the characteristics that bind us all, wherever we come from.

Max

All very nice I’m sure, but the fact is there are no happy multicultural societies anywhere in the world. There are only varying degrees of unhappiness, from general disaffection and a bit of terrorism - which we have now - up to all out civil war. That’s why the Americans strive so assiduously to make everyone “American” and insist that patriotism is not just a virtue but a requirement for all citizens.

The American population is multi-ethnic but it’s not supposed to be multicultural.

In Britain it’s different. Our new citizens refuse point blank to be British in any true sense. Instead Britishness has become one of those weasel words that mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean. (I’m surprised Mr Mansoor had not realised that). For most (all) it just means that they have a right to live here while allegiances remain elsewhere.

The recent “The Olympic Games are coming to London” celebrations were graphic.

At the closing ceremony in China most of the people representing London and the beneficiaries of a lovely, all expenses paid trip, where black or Asian - including the little girl who was given special attention (for reasons I now forget).

I’m glad they all had a lovely time in China – but I think more white people, (in proportion to the population, say) might have enjoyed it as well – given the opportunity.

However; at the “Party” held outside Buckingham Palace (celebrating the same occasion remember) but not “all expenses paid” and the occasion not quite so lovely; there was hardly a black face to be seen and not one person in 10,000 was Asian. This might seem odd considering the huge black and Asian population living within virtual walking distance - if we all didn’t know the situation.

Obviously, the authorities are trying hard with this integration thing, but the new ethnic population is not taking any notice.

Mr Mansoor’s article might have been well meaning but it does not herald any hope.

If anyone wants a glimpse into our future they just need to look at what’s happening in the Metropolitan Police.

Toxic, utterly toxic.

dougal

I'm a bit puzzled as to how David Short can think an article set in Scotland couldn't possibly be about Britain, while simultaneously thinking that a hymn about "England's green and pleasant land" is.

Although, actually, I'm not really puzzled. I think his line about Sarfraz and the British Empire tells us all we need to know about the man.

For most of us "Britain" means something modern, multi-cultural and inclusive. Mr Short seems to have confused the word "British" with a sort of grim, thankfully-departed Enoch Powell Englishness. "Inter-marriage with the Scottish people," indeed.

Neil

Interesting thoughts Sarfraz. I would reccomend listening to some Billy Bragg, who has covered a fair few Woody Guthrie songs. Despite his being a raging commie and me disagreeing with a lot of his policies I think you will find something there for you. Yes it is mainly about England, but that quality you seem to be looking for I have found in his music.

A. MacAulay

Dear Sarfaz,

Thank you for your thoughtful article. The next time you go to Durness take a drive down the West coast through Lochinver and then to Ullapool. You will travel through scenery for which the cliché, "breathtaking" becomes reality. Take the Ferry to Stornaway and there you will meet the Macastanis who are Asian immigrants and who have lived on Lewis for generations.

Also, David Short you have practically proved that "a Geordie is a Scotchman with his brains bashed in." Please find some humanity and humour, and if you find being a Hack such a burden, either develop some curiosity and become a journalist, or start making an honest living. To criticise this article in this way just says you've lost your bearings.

Scotland will become independant again, sometime in the next generation because the forces that drew the countries together no longer exert either attraction or pressure.
Nonetheless, the Scots and the English will always be neighbours and if they organise themselves either this way or that, nothing will change this. So let's just live with it!

So, Mike that's the point. Something new has happened, and the idea of being British will either find new poets or it will fail.

John

I am delighted Mr Mansoor feels British.There is a Great Britain: its other name is the 'United Kingdom.'Much blood was spilt and many dangers faced in unity by the inhabitants of these misty isles to forge the British people and all the devolutionists and European integrationists will not make it otherwise. Britishness and its proud contribution to civilisation are irremovably embedded in the history of the world. Whether you were born in a slum in Tyneside,in a manor in Surrey or your forebears came from a village in the Punjab your British birth makes you British.As an Empire builder now vastly unpopular,once said, "To be born British is to win first prize in the lottery of life." Congratulations on winning the lottery Sarfaz.

A. MacAulay

I'd like to allow myself a P.S. too.

Perhaps Sarfaz has had the realistion that, "Britain" is an island, which is not so obvious to someone brought up in a city. And an island is very diferent to any "mainland", as I can attest after 25 years abroad in "Europe". Islands forget nothing and somehow forgive everything. Islands are wierdly rigid but endlessly tolerant.

Take for instance the part of Britain called Scotland. There are plenty of immigrants in Scotland; Jews, Italians, Poles, Asians, English, etc. But you don't really notice them because the Scots are still more concerned with the left-overs of the Reformation than strangers who make themselves at home. Until the English make their presence felt, of course, who have a strange capacity to make themselves unloved by everyone in Scotland. But that's only because we know them better than they do themselves. Otherwise we'd have to invent them.

David Short

MacAulay, the comments you make are racist, insulting and dopey. I am just glad that at least my opponent is so dopey that he cannot spell correctly the goal he has.

It's 'independent' not 'independant'

You seem to overlook the fondness I had as a younger persons for Scotland, even though I had never been there.

There is a different type of Scottish person now in the public arena, but I know, because I am not a racist, that they are not representative of that clever, sometimes gentle, sometimes not, but certainly remarkable people that thE Scottish are.

We came together as part of the same nation because Scotland became bankrupt (not the Scottish people's fault).

If the Scots want to be a separate nation, that's fine by me.

Don't judge all Scottish people by the awful example of the m.d. of this very magazine!

As to the author of the article, I'll buy the book on Amazon and I'll stick a reminder on my phone about the broadcast, even though I am not a fan of Radio Four's political stance (and I know they are not meant to have one! but I have known enough people there to understand what it is.....).

David Short

dougal, everything you say about me is ill-judged and badly reasoned.

I'm at least glad I caused such a debate, and I'm sure the writer of the article is too....

David Short

PS, what's wrong with saying 'inter-marriage with the Scottish people'?

That's what happened. Lots of people in my English home town have Scottish in-laws.

Or have you got something against one race inter-marrying with another?

JohnAnt

I'm a little puzzled: you say 'I had no experience of Britain beyond the claustrophobic limits of my family and my hometown. It makes me think whether I might have felt differently if I had had a chance when young to see Britain in all its wild, rural and scenic beauty.' You didn't get 'a chance'? Why not? Even a bit of general reading as a child, or the odd geography lesson, would surely have given you an inkling as a child that there was life outside the place you grew up? I can't buy that self-pitying pathos, sorry.

A. MacAulay

Thank you David Short for being so friendly and pointing out my spelling error. This sort of thing happens from time to time and a discreet word from a friend prevents public embarrasment.

I would also like to make it perfectly clear that some of my best friends are Geordies and that I am very tolerant and in no way hold any bias or prejudice against members of the the Northumbrian race. Some people think I am dopey because of this, so it is especially hurtful to stand accused by someone from Newcastle.

sarfraz

JohnAnt:
if you're not into self-pitying pathos you are going to HATE my book.. but on the substantive point I actually loved atlases and reading about far off places when I was a kid. But we didn't have the money, and my parents didn't have the desire to see them for ourselves. Now if you think that is self-pitying pathos that's your right, but it happens also to be true.

Ken W

Safraz

Glad you enjoyed your trip, but
your article is mere superficial navel-gazing.

Don't you think it might have been worthwhile asking some asians in Scotland just how 'British' they feel, or indeed anybody in Scotland ummm, at all?

sarfraz

hello
Ken W: one man's superficial navel gazing is another man's profound rumination, so I'm guessing you didn't think too much of it but I was trying to make points that weren't only personal. As to the other point, I was actually in Durness to make a Radio 4 documentary on another subject but visiting led me to have the superficial navel gazing thoughts that so failed to impress you.

David Short

I've taken a full turnabout, and no longer think there is anything called 'Britishness'.

This revelation came to me yesterday when I took a break on the Freewheel cycling event.

I escaped the general bossy bootedness of the event (it still seems to bear the stamp of Ken-style Stalinism rather than BoJo laisser-faire) and sat in a serene St James's Park, something I had not done for many years.

I realised that there still is a quality you don't get elsewhere, and it is the Englishness of a beautiful park in early autumn.

Luckily, there were only nicely-dressed Italian and French tourist walking past me.

I would hate to have had to look, or listen to, or smell, modern English people.

(not from Newcastle, by the way).

A. MacAulay

It may be a consolation to hear that Bavarians loathe Prussians. Badenser regard Württemberger as miserly hicks. A Leipzig (Saxony)accent is met with derision everywhere and East Frieslanders are generally considered to be mentally challenged. Wessis (Westies) think Ossis (Easties) are a bunch of scroungers who never learned to work, and Ossis think Wessis are boastful windbags. They all manage to wave a black-red-gold flag when Germany plays football and when that's over they get on with being themselves.

There is something called a German identity, but your average, common or garden German will have exactly the same problem in saying just exactly what it is.

And just to get you smiling again, David Short, the greatest unrequited love affair in the history of peoples is that of Germany for England. (the generic term for Britain) And if you knew the reasons for this Anglophilia, including the hallucinations of Rosamunde Pilcher, you would fall on your a.se for laughter

CharlieRay15

I had to laugh at the mention of Rosamunde Pilcher. It's great stuff, all those Germans in Cornwall - you couldn't make it up!

A. MacAulay

Yes, just ask Rosamunde Pilcher what "Britishness" is.

"Oh wad some powr the giftie gie us,
to see irsells as ithers see us,
it wad us from mony a blunder free us,
and foolish notion".

Freely after Robbie Burns, and if anyone notices the spelling mistakes in my Ayrshire dialect, please keep it to yirsell.

Max

A. MacAulay.

I just wonder what Germany, the German sense of identity and the situation there has to do with this.

If you are alluding to, or using some sort of metaphor for the situation in Britain, you are mistaken I can assure you.

Perhaps perceptions about the present state of Britain and “Britishness” depend on where you live. In and around London a very large percentage of the population (up to 99 percent in many areas larger than most British towns) would be insulted if you accused them of being British.

As said before, “Britishness” now means whatever the speaker wants it to mean, but what is even more extraordinary, the meaning of “Britishness” can - and usually does - include the meaning “Not British”.

“Not British” is the new “British”. How cool is that?

As for the English; they have a death wish – the only wish guaranteed to come true - and you’ll be pleased to know, they are writing themselves out of history altogether as fast as they can.

A. MacAulay

Max, it is true that in the last 35 years, I have spent about 2 in Britain. I will route myself through anywhere rather then spend a minute at Heathrow, so I haven't seen London for a very long time either.

Nonetheless, I am aware of the developments you describe. The analogy to Germany could easily be carried over to any other country, but clearly I am describing my experience. The Germans are interesting insofar as their national identity is so burdened that only now does the post-post war generation allow themselves a party-time national oneness at football games. Otherwise regionalism lives and kicks the same way it does everywhere.

Historically, the genius of the English (used deliberately) constitution was that it didn't really exist and was able to change and adapt without breaking. It was possible to find a place in a hierarchy, which was able to reward those who could rise within it. Sounds convoluted, but if we take the author of the article, Sarfraz, we see that his aspirations are "British", and so decidedly so that he can find a place for an article in the Spectator. Perhaps one day he will be a modern day Disraeli? He is part of the system, and if he doesn't become a latter day Disraeli it would not be because the system didn't allow it.

So for the masses maybe the aspiration to Britishness means buying on credit a sofa suite as seen on a banal afternoon Soap. So long as they aspire to something within the social spectrum of Britishness, then they are much more British than they either realise or wish to admit.

Max

A. MacAulay.

You have been away for a long time haven’t you?

Against all the odds’, having no formal written constitution has proved to be remarkably successful for the British, but its success depended on a broad agreement on the fundamentals. That consensus no longer exists.

Unfortunately Britain, in its new status as a land of immigrants (please don't tell me Britain has always been a land of immigrants) has a disadvantage probably unique in history. For the first time ever known, people from all over the world are flocking to live in a country and amongst people whom they hate.

Most immigrants are from the countries of the old empire and are filled with resentment. What makes them most proud? If you can believe it, practically every immigrant is a descendant of a freedom fighter beaten-up and jailed by the cruel British. Our immigrants do not admire us, or our way of life. They do not wish to join with us to improve and enhance our British institutions and customs. They do not integrate, assimilate or identify with this country. Instead they wish to replace us and our ways.

It is normal for famous people – even those relying on the goodwill of the public - entertainers etc - to be scathing. One famous Asian film producer tells how she always enjoys “batting the British” another entertainer says that though she was born and brought up in England she “will remain forever a place which is not England”, mocking a famous First World War poet. Even a well respected campaigner for civil liberties says that as she was born in England; she can admit to being British – but English – “that would be going too far”.

Can anyone imagine a similar situation arising in the USA or other country of immigrants?

What is most strange to me is that our non-European population, having fled the backwardness and the poverty and the failed cultural system that made them poor, want to introduce into this country the very same culture that failed them so disastrously that they had to flee in the first place.

Britain is now the land of forced marriages, honour killings, female genital mutilation, wife beating, the cast system, weird ideas concerning the position of widows, witch craft, cow worship and diverse other insanities. The list could go on forever.

And now we have – and its official - Sharia law. And the ethnic wars have begun. Are you aware of the situation in the Metropolitan Police?

“Aspire to something within the social spectrum of Britishness, then they are much more British than they either realise or wish to admit”. (Your use of "they wish to admit" is revealing). But, I’m sorry I’m being distracted. There are a flock of pigs flying past my window.

I congratulate you on your escape and would urge all people under the age of 40 to escape also.

Roger Inkpen

I wrote to Gordon Brown early last year after he’d raised the issue of ‘Britishness’ (a word unrecognised by my spell-checker). I’ve written to politicians of all shades and levels of seniority and at least had acknowledgements. From him there was none.

I’d like to see a more ‘inclusive’ Britain, and certainly avoid dismantling the kingdom – something the BBC seems intent on doing with its constant references to England, Scotland, Wales and even Northern Ireland as ‘countries’. To me the ‘country’ is Britain. The idea of a special day to promote Britishness is awful, although I’m sure few would complain if we had an extra public holiday. Did the minister really suggest we could celebrate by drinking?

Very few British people know about their country because they haven’t seen it, apart perhaps from London. If they go anywhere on hols, like Safraz, they go abroad. Bristolians are more likely to meet Geordies in Spain than they are at home. The only reason I’ve seen so much of Great Britain is through work: I’ve lived in the SE, NE, NW and Midlands, North Wales, and West and North of Scotland (not far from Durness, in fact).

So I would like to see opportunities given, as we do with town-twinning abroad, for tie-ups between say, Aberdeen and Plymouth, Sunderland and Swansea, Coleraine and Corby. Pack schoolchildren and community groups off to visit their British twin towns to get a better idea of what makes their places different, and equally importantly, what ties them together. Currently school groups might visit other places, but only in their own groups, with little interaction with locals. Perhaps there’s room for lottery money to give disadvantaged Asian (and of course Black and White) kids a chance to stay with families in places like Durness (and the reverse of course).

Oh yes, Mr Mansoor, the Guthrie song is called “This land is your land”, and the Waterboys did an excellent cover in the Eighties on Fisherman’s Blues, changing place names to British ones.

Andrew

Another article attempting to analyse what it means to be British. Well I'm sorry I don't need Sarfraz Manzoor to define it. I'm British and I'm also English. Sarfraz is and will remain a Pakistani. I concur with much of Max's (Sept. 23) analysis of the situation we
find ourselves in but I don't think the British people are ready to abandon their country to these invaders. In the past we've been duped by our politicians and the liberal establishment but now every day brings more evidence that the multi racial/ multi cultural experiment has failed. It will take time but I look forward to the day when here in North London I will not see anyone wearing a hijab.

David Short

'practically every immigrant is a descendant of a freedom fighter beaten-up and jailed by the cruel British'

Now, Max, I very much doubt this absurd generalisation.

And anyway 'freedom fighters', in whatever numbers, were more likely to be duffed up by their own people.

Why have a dog and bark yourself?

As for Germany, very few British people visit it, because it doesn't have sunny southern beaches, nor any proper ski slopes.

It's a pity, because there are very few places more civilised than German cities. Even something as simple as a hot bratwurst and a cold beer standing at an imbiss on a cold winter lunchtime is a great pleasure.

Duncan MacDonald

Isn't it revealing how the Metropolitans see the natives these days. Of course it's that type that have damaged this country so much in the first place through their uncontrolled mass-immigration, and multi-culturalism mantra. Unfortunately, it won't be long before the Durnesses of this world go the way of the rest of Britain.

A. MacAulay

At the possible end of this thread, I did not have time to respond yesterday, I can only say that the desolation and anger of Max and Andrew's contributions is unsettling. Actually more worrying than the immigration mess itself.

Whilst worshipping a cow is no sillier (in my opinion) than taking the Archbishop of Canterbury seriously, slavery, coercion, murder and mutilation (gbh?) are illegal, and not only in Britain. The question then is where is there a Wilberforce or Macaulay (pure coincidence) who can channel political and public awareness into putting these evils down? Or must one wait for the likes of Bono and Geldof to discover injustice a bit nearer home?

I would not accuse any person more than I do myself, but fundamental liberties have been trampled on within the UK for decades because those trampled were foreign and female! The mess we're in now has been caused by moral cowardice, but that does not mean we have to remain so! Protesting FOR liberty cannot be racist. How about a protest march through an asian quarter to campaign against iilegal forced marriages? You don't have to be a crypto-fascist looney to support that; rather the opposite!

Otherwise Max is right, the English are doomed and we can rename the rump, "Whingeing Pomerania".

And, at the last, David Short. Prost!

It is true that Germany has perfected the pork sausage as well as the beer to wash them down with, which fact has not prevented millions of Muslims moving here. There are real ghettoes though where showing your white face is just asking for trouble however civilised the surface of these cities may seem. Indeed, the complaint Max makes also holds true here, as in other countries with significant immigrant populations. It hasn't yet reached the dimensions of Britain though.