Mocking the Welsh is the last permitted bigotry

Roger Angove

You have neglected to mention the most vilified group of all in the UK - the indigenous white majority. They can be sneered at derided, told the the very idea of British Jobs for British Workers is 'racist'. They are also pushed to the back of the queue for social housing and then lied to by the likes of Trevor Phillips who draws a substantial salary for promoting anti-white discrimination.

Ray

I have no problem with the Welsh language. What the Welsh choose to speak in their own country is their business. However, I do wish we would end this silliness of having dual names for towns and cities.

Perhaps the citizens of the said places could be balloted on whether they want to call their particular abodes Cardiff or Caerdydd, Newtown or Drenewydd, or Wrexham or Wrecsam. Then whatever they decide, please can all the road maps and road signs be amended to show just ONE name.

And, by the way, can we also henceforth decide whether we want to call this quaint little mountain province Wales or Cymru.

ian skidmore

As Jan well knows I was dropped by the BBC in Wales for the crime of being English and the BBC compensated me rather than face a race tribunal. For the Welsh to accuse the English of bigotry is calling the sospan black. Although in her defence Jan who I greatly admire is as English as I am and aliens are always the most committed. Napoleon was Corsican, Catherine the Great was German, Hitler was Austrian and at least one IRA Chief of Staff was from Tooting.Jan is from Swindon They get carried way

ian skidmore

PS; As Jan Well knows, in Medeaval times only the castle towns were administered by the English. The rest of the country was known as the Welshry where ancient Welsh law obtained and there was no extraditon. The traditon survives in town names like Welsh Franton. An English trader who dodged his debts by moving into the Welshry was said to have Welshed. Thus it is a critism of the English. The finest manufactured item in Wales is their own history. Owain Glyndwr is a case in point. His ancestors were the first family to surrender to Edward 1st to protect their wealth and he married off his children into English families. He founded universities not for the good of the Welsh but because he needed a native beurocracy

ian skidmore

PPS. H.V.Morton, an earier incarnation of the great Jan (and the last Englishman apart fom Hannen Swaffer to be made a bard) in his splendid panegeric "In Search of Wales" denies that Taffy was a Welshman has any Welsh connection. He quotes a Dutch poem in which Taffis refers to the tall hat which priests wore and accuses them of stealng meat from their starving flock

RotorHead

Oh, get over it. Sometimes I go all day without thinking something derogatory about Wales. In fact some days I don't think of Wales at all.

Andrew

It's not just Wales. The English have a profound need to look down on other nations, and its high time they got over it.

They are arguably one of the most nationalistic nations on earth, all the while criticising patriotism and pride in others.

While flooding overseas in their millions, to live in English enclaves where they studiously refuse to learn the local language, the English are hostile to outsiders and fearful of being swamped at home.

Basically they want to be treated as sahibs wherever they go and are outraged when they are not.

Wales is a nation that has managed to preserve its identity in the face of an aggressive invasion from a much larger neighbour, fighting with no hope of outside help. Outnumbered 10-1 they could hardly engage in pitched battles. Why on earth should they not speak their own language in their own country for heavens sake?

Its high time England got off its high horse and started dealing with other nations as equals.

Here in Scotland I have never heard anyone say a bad word against the Welsh. Plenty of jokes about the English though.

Doug

Come off it. Wales is no different or better or worse than anywhere else in the UK apart from the fact that its native inhabitants are the most parochial people you'd ever hope to meet. Mocking the Welsh is the last taboo? Try having an English accent in Wales, try putting up with the relentless affirmation of the greatness of Wales, the level of pride that if exhibited by an Englishman would get them classed as 'racist'. And the fact that the vast majority of people in Wales seem base their concept of nationhood on the fact they've got a rugby team.

No-one in England ever wrote a song called 'As Long As We Beat The Welsh'....

Pheez

I honestly don't agree with you on this Jan. I work in a large university (in England) with a number of Welsh colleagues and am never aware of any predudice. On completing your artical I turned to one and asked her if I were missing something, and she said not and that although years ago, this used it be the case she certainly wasn't aware of it now.

MikeF

Actually the last permitted bigotry is that of accusing anyone who thinks outside the box of the left-liberal consensus of being a 'bigot'. You can usually find an example in The Independent or The Guardian any day of the week.

dave, surrey

Nobody in all England lives further than 100 miles from a Welsh border..? Plain wrong unless I've misunderstood.. (maybe you need to get out of Swindon more)

Helen

Andrew at 10:43

"Here in Scotland I have never heard anyone say a bad word against the Welsh. Plenty of jokes about the English though."

Betrayed by your own spiteful words Andrew, as an anti-English bigot. Shouldn't you be writing to the Guardian?

Having said that, the Welsh are great (apart from the anti-English one who spat in my chips after he heard my accent 10 years ago) and if they want to speak their own language that's their own business.

John Thomas

Continued antipathy by the English to Wales is explicable by way of Connor Cruise O'Brien's principle that you never hate anyone as much as a people you have persecuted; this is too strong, here; the English never really persecuted the Welsh, nor do the English hate them; but the principle is the same.
And yes, as Jan Morris implies in the last paragraphs, Wales today has a new, renewed confidence - in its culture - that England has totally lost (though it may recover it some day, when the present awful multiculturalism and diversity receives the reaction against it that it deserves, and ordinary white English people cease to be reviled by their own government).

Sir Graphus

Well, it was your lot that started it. The Welsh and the Scots have always made their loathing of the English very obvious.

Andrew, at 10.43, talks complete rot and makes my point for me.

Phil Chamberlain

It's very interesting that in this piece Jan Morris only seems to refer to rural Wales, and particularly rural welsh-speaking wales.

The South Wales valleys, the port cities where most welsh people live, seem to be absent from this essay.

Why, to read this, you would think the whole population of Wales speaks welsh and lives in small towns...

terence patrick hewett

Ave Caesar! Morituri te salutant!

Mea culpa,
Mea maxima culpa,
Crux sancta sit mihi lux,
Non draco sit mihi dux,
Vade retro Satana,
Numquam suade mihi vana,
Sunt mala quae libas,
Ipse venena bibas.

David Richards

"Nobody in all England lives further than 100 miles from a Welsh border"

I do. So lots of people. Large parts of England are more than 100 miles from Wales.

And I doubt that many English people think all that much about Wales. Nationalism, like any egoism, always likes to believe that others think about you far more than is actually true.

oh woe is meee

Andrew 10:43, don't worry, we all know the Scots beat the Welsh at the victimhood olympics any day, in fact they beat pretty much any other country you might care to name..

Stuart Menges

"Nobody in all England lives further than 100 miles from a Welsh border"

From which Geography books did the author learn? I'd suggest that decent-sized chunks of England are over 100 miles from Wales' borders.

roger

So the English are one of the most nationalistic nations on Earth, Andrew? Oh please. Couldn't be the French could it?

Ken

Ray,

There is noting silly about cities and towns having different names in different languages - the Finnish city of Turku is known to the country's Swedish-speaking minority as.... Åbo.

And while Robert Mugabe inflicted many things on Zimbabwe, I'm glad that Hwange National Park is no longer called Wankie.

However, the fact that there is no Welsh language daily newspaper, and attempts to establish one last year foundered because it couldn't get enough subscriptions, just says it all.

Jerry

Sorry guys, but I have to chuckle over your little diatribes. We have something similar still going on the Colony. And don't call me a Yank, I'm a Southerner and my family has been in the South since 1670. Oh yeah, they came from Wales...The Raglans.

Dirty Euro

There are tonnes of acceptable bigotries, that should not be acceptable.
English people are generally more insulting to shy people, ethnic minorities, gay people, than the Welsh. The same for the Welsh.
But I do think English people should accept the Welsh keeping their own language. The Welsh should tell the English to mind their own business. It is the English elites (not upper class) who tend to be the most bigoted. The English elites get angry when Indians change the names of their own cities, from the British Empire names, which is pretty pathetic of the English elites to get worked up about. Should London go back to being called Londinium.

Tony Hook

Is it 'cos you is Welsh, Jan?

Geoffrey Hart

There are other groups can be vilified --in the film Austin Powers "fat bastard" is a Scotchman; and in "hear no evil see no evil" Richard Pryor plays Doctor Johanson from Sweden to great comic effect. It seems the groups that can be vilified must come from northern Europ thus vindicating George Orwell's point that the English become more bigoted the closer you get to the equator There seems to be no derogatory word for a Swede but consider the words used for Italians and Spaniards and once you get to North Africa the language becomes harsher still

CS

I'm usually a big fan, Jan, but so much of this piece is inflated nonsense. And petulant nonsense at that. Historical analysis worthy of the Daily Mail. I can't remember the last time I hear a "Welsh joke" which apparently flourishes. Unless it was the usual, Englishman, Welshman and Scotsman joke of which the Welshman is never the butt.

I've racked my brains and can't think of any crass stereotype of the Welsh which comes even close to that of the stupidity of the Irish or the meanness of the Scots.

Nor do I believe that I'm an exception to the rule. What I think you're using here is the lazy trick of picking up a fault of a small number of people and tarring everyone with it in order to get what you've written more noticed or make it more forceful.

If you seriously imagine that the view of the Welsh held by "the English" is determined one iota by guerilla wars of distant history, you're a lazier thinker than I thought.

Maybe these prejudices against the Welsh do exist among some in the media, political and governing classes but they certainly don't among your average Englishman. Maybe what you need to do is to re-evaluate the inhabitants of the circles in which you yourself move as they appear to be narrow and unrepresentative. A few loveless intellectuals you meet at parties are not representative of "the English".

Perhaps a sense of inferiority animates you in this prejudice which leads you to use crass generalisations to stereotype a whole nation.

CS

***Here in Scotland I have never heard anyone say a bad word against the Welsh. Plenty of jokes about the English though.***

A comment so dumb as to be surely ironic in intention, Andrew. You bitch about the English bitching about the Welsh.

Having derided the English for bitching about other nations, you then hold up the Scots as examples of good sense because they bitch about the English.

Get a life and maybe you'll see that, if you have an inferiority complex, it's not necessarily because other people have a superiority complex.

I've been to around 20 different countries in my life and no-one has ever had the slightest problem with my being English. What people have a problem with is arrogant prats with chips on their shoulders and they're pretty equally distributed throughout the UK.

Howard Browne, Virginia, USA

I once asked a Welsh friend for a code name for a web page. "Taff," he said.
"Isn't that demeaning? You know, 'Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief...?' "
"Of course not. It was English beef, and it was delicious!"

Old Man

Jan Morris.

I’m sorry to say this; but every word you say is unmitigated codswollop. There is no animosity amongst the English that I have ever heard.

But worse; you are hopelessly out of date.

I have noticed a big increase in Welsh nationalism in recent decades (I’m old) but I assume that is a natural consequence of mass and uncontrolled immigration from countries that share no real cultural ties with us. Perhaps because of the huge numbers involved, the incomers see no requirement to integrate and assimilate or identify with this United Kingdom. Obviously any sense of nationhood we once had is disappearing fast and will soon disappear altogether.

Already, Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs living in Britain outnumber the Welsh and will soon outnumber the Scots.

The various groups which made up this nation and were once united enough to be proud of their British heritage see the connection coming apart at the seams. So they take cover in their own micro-heritage. This has been evident in the upsurge of Welsh nationalism in recent years but to justify it they have (like the Scots) to indulge in grievance culture.

It is not rocket science. There can be little connection between a Muslim advocate of Sharia law from Bangladesh living in London and a Welsh nonconformist living in Swansea.

But you don’t need to Welsh or Scots to want something to cleave to, something to which to identify. Already the English from the North and the South and the South West are inclined to think of themselves as “different” from their relatives.

Why is it that artistic people who claim to be especially sensitive and caring and knowledgeable are the last to know anything?

Jamal Akhbar

I suspect that the real problem for the "nations" is that the English don't think about them at all: we're too busy just getting on with a life without excessive subsidies. We don't even dream about them. Get a life.

HH Ogden

Speaking as a Lancastrian, I have no personal or inherited feelings whatsoever of animosity towards the people of Wales, whom I have always found to be charming. I reserve all rights in this regard in respect of the Easterners from Yorkshire and their possible policy of western expansion.

jane bodington

What tosh
The Welsh are rabidily anti-English, I should know, my uncle married a Welsh woman in the fifties and his children have done nothing but bitch about England (and the football league) ever since.

I am not called by my first name just becase I was named after her, unpleasant so and so, decided this when I was 3, never had reason to change my mind.

however, if Wales is 100 km from England, the reverse is true. And how many mine workers were transient workers from the UK, trapped into staying in an area of decling industry by council housing?

no doubt all this aggressive Welshness is a result of second or third generation families seeking to find a place for themselves.

Fine. Let them and not the much maligned English tax-payer pay for it.

There is nothing more ridiculous than being in South Wales and seeing Bristol to the south, and hearing about brave Welsh independenence while standing next to one of Edward Plantagent's castles.

as if ....

obviously NuLav voters, heads in cistern.

Mark Cleminson

I thought Jan Morris was better than this crap. I was wrong.

David Short

'Don't let's be beastly to the Germans' was not 'sarcastic'. It was ironic.

But the British people didn't understand that, and Coward was villified for it.

If we now think that Britain is a very stupid country (which it is), let's not forget how stupid it was then, too.

David Short

Don't forget in Wales to hail a cab in Welsh. 'Taksi!.

There is no 'x' in the Welsh language, you see. So that's the official translation - and you can see it on signs, with extra un-ecological paint, in Cardiff, where virtually no one speaks Welsh.

David Short

'But as to understanding anything more profound about the history, the existence and the meaning of Wales, their minds are blank and their responses generally weasly.'

How can someone writing a piece saying it's wrong to stigmatise an entire people through prejudice write this comment against the English?

And why does the formerly intelligent Spectator allow this nonsense to be published?

Cymru am byth

Good article. Of course redheads are also allowed to be racially abused in England with impunity, and of course this is for the same reason - red hair is so closely associated with Welsh/Irish/Scottish - in other words all the peoples that raided Enlglish villages for so many centuries.

The Welsh win in the end though - at least they are not mocked and pilloried in every country on earth, and the English can't say that about themselves.

Cymru an byth.

Bernard (Byn or Bun) Walters

Re: "English tourists complaining....": It's what South Walians say about North Walians, and Ian Skidmore could also have cited Stalin.

croydonian

100 miles from the Welsh border, eh? Apart, from London east of Westminster, East Anglia, most of Kent, much of Lincolnshire and Yorkshire, Northumberland etc

Bingo LIttle

Did you hear the one about the Englishman, the Scotsman and the Irishman? They were having a go at each other and then along came this Welsh boyo ... Gareth I think his name was (why couldn't it just be Gary?). Anyway, he opened his mouth and they all had a good laugh. Before you know it, they were the best of pals. Who says the Welsh have no point?

Liz

The English can't think that little of Wales, they're bloody coming here in droves to live in our seaside towns. Never mind the Euro immigrants, get rid of the Tory toff types coming to Wales for second homes!

Thomas

Would it not have been a good idea to give some concrete examples of the sort of thing you are talking about, Jan? Or do you expect me to believe that the English hate the Welsh purely because you say so? Far from flourishing, I honestly don't believe I've heard an English person make a "Welsh joke" in my life. I don't know any Welsh jokes. As a Welsh person living in England I would certainly remember. In fact this article seems devoid of any sort of anecdotal evidence later than Shakespeare. English people don't look down on the Welsh; they certainly don't hate them. This is because they don't they don't really talk about them very much. After reading Jan's article and the comments below, I've come across lots of Anglophobia but not much more.

B Hughes

An excellent article by a wonderful writer. True 100%, although there are some Welsh people themselves, the monoglot English speakers, are sometimes even more vitriolic in their hatred of the language than the English. Born out of an inability to speak the language perhaps? Who knows.

The reality is the demand for Welsh medium education is outstripping supply, may I add, from mainly English speaking parents, who simply want their children to speak both our languages. Nobody is forcing anybody.

The Welsh language, handed down from generation to generation, the words spoken by father to son, mother to daughter for thousands of years, has been written off many times in the past, is flourishing and long may it continue.

Hazel

Rydyn ni wedi cwrdd â'r gelyn ac o'n ni.

We have met the enemy and he is us.

Good old Pogo to the rescue.

David Short

There's always some toady that comes along late in the day to support a dopey article in The Spectator which has been condemned by previous contributors.

I wonder who is behind this trend?

The supporting writers are never established contributors to the forum. You never see their name again.

Are they pseudonyms created by tthe people who commission thr kind of rubbish The Spectator publishes nowadays?

I think we should be told!

Mark Anderson

There are several ridiculous comments in this article; I wanted to concentrate on the following ones:

"it is probably an inherited national instinct that allows today’s English columnists and tap-room jokers to be as beastly as they please about the Welsh."

Inherited national instinct? There is no such thing. National instinct? Aha! ha! Do you mean Human instinct?

"The contact between the two peoples has been...inimical from the start, and because the Welshman was always a wily kind of enemy, a guerrilla more than a stand-and-fight man, given to ruses and deceits, boasting of supernatural advantages — because the Welsh wars of the English were never quite like their other wars, and never did end in a Plassey, a Waterloo, an Omdurman or an Alamein, a brooding sense of dissatisfied resentment was perhaps left behind in the English subconscious..."

"Dissatisfied resentment"? You wish. I do not think of Wales at all. Well, until I meet someone like you that is. Then, it isnt a matter of me consciously thinking of wales, I can't help thinking about wales because that's
all I hear about for the next hour!

'Welsh wars of the English"? What are you talking about? It was the Normans who invaded "wales".
Those castles, the ones they call welsh castles, are NORMAN castles! The Normans were not English. I have to say I do not understand why the welchers don't go on about the Romans to. After all, there are many "welsh" words in the "welsh" language that are of Roman origin. Plus, the Romans owned "wales" for over four hundred years.

"Perhaps a sense of inferiority animates English people in their prejudice, as they compare this inextinguishable national spirit with their own?"

Carry on making your bigoted comments. You will see exactly how inferior the English feel in the next few years!

This article is nothing more than a bitter, childish, histrionic rant.

j lilburn

I think you'll find that the English are victims more than any other in this so called united kingdom. Here is an analogy:

Dear English Football Association

As a representative of the Scottish Football Association, I would like to inform you that we wish to change the way the English Football team is managed to bring it more in line with the way our Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, is running Britain.

This will involve the following:

1. The Manager of the Scottish team is allowed to be involved with the running of the English team. However, the manager of the English team should have no say whatsoever in the running of the Scottish team. This shall be known as the West Lothian Question.

2. A sizable proportion of any money the English Football Association raises from, say sponsorship or crowd takings, shall be given to the Scottish Football Association, regardless as to whether you need it or not. This does not apply the other way round. This is known as the Barnett Formula.

3. You are not to call yourself England any longer. You will now be known as the British Regions. We, on the other hand, are still to be known as Scotland, “a proud and noble nation”.

4. Medical treatment to your players will be limited to a few treatments because of cost. No such stringent limitation applies to Scotland.

5. If your playing surfaces are flooded, then do not expect much assistance. However, Scottish pitches will be adequately provided for in the event of flooding.

6. From this moment on, the English Football Association will cease to exist. However, the Scottish Football Association will be allowed to continue to work independently.

A failure to follow these rules will see you branded as arrogant, selfish and unfair.

I’m sure you will find this to your satisfaction. After all, you seem to be happy with this state of affairs with your political system, so why not your Football team?

Yours sincerely

Mr G Brown.

PS You English are so naïve, you are being abolished and don’t even realise it.

Ref: http://www.thecep.org.uk

Alfred the OK

No, you're wrong. Mocking the ENGLISH by just about everyone is the last permitted bigotry. In fact, this government positively encourages it!

Helen Wright

Rubbish. The Welsh incomers in our small Yorkshire town host their own St Davids Day in the local pubs and not a word is said against it. I know a lot of people who refuse to visit Wales, because a local bus tour to Wales passed a sign with graffiti on it, saying "English go home." The English on that bus experienced verbal abuse in Wales on that trip. The story passed into folklore and many in this town will never spend a penny in Wales as a result.
The only time Wales get a mention, is to pass on that story and comment on Welsh bigotry and the Barnett Formula [shed loads of English money to fund that Welsh bigotry].
You made your bed with bigoted zeal. Don't whinge about it now, unless you plan to clear up your racists, which clearly you don't.

charles j jaggers

There does seem to be a lot of anger against the welsh in england. The English as an immigrant race, the welsh are the original British,feel insecure towards all other races. That is why English people try to transfer their own faults on to the Welsh.Unfriendliness , racism, arrogance are english traits. we Welsh are bigger than the English childish jibes .

Alfred the OK

charles j jaggers - sorry, you are wrong. The Welsh are definitely not the original inhabitants of Britain (even if that myth has been pedalled since Max Boyce's leek was nowt but a seedling). Presumably, you call yourselves 'Celts' - they originate from what is now Syria in the Middle East. So you see, the Celts, (Welsh, Scots, Irish and Breton) all originally migrated through Europe from the eastern Med'.

They came here in 500 BC,some 6,000 years after the channel was formed and we became an island. The Celts then appear to have eradicated the indigenous peoples - I believe the term is called 'ethnic cleansing'.

So there you have it. Read the shocking truth - the Welsh were immigrants to this land also.

History, don't you just love it?

Jeremy Smallwood

Yet Jan Morris still dances to an old familiar tune? Methinks she doth protest too much: a case, perhaps, of getting in one’s retaliation first? If it is indeed the case that the Welsh – or, feasibly more correctly, merely a vociferous and shrill minority of this lovely country motivated by alternative, personal, agendas – twitch at every little nuance of national sledging, then their elevation to the podium as fall-guys for cheap, English, humour may be – just may be – through the fault lines offered by their own, thin, skins. It was always thus between all nations, all tribes, all minorities. Candles have always been blown out to make others brighter, but it all rather depends in the end upon the strength of the flame. Behave as a victim and you’ll be a victim... Moan and carp, and you’ll invite derision. Stand tall, and let it all bounce harmlessly off...

The English have no ‘suspicion’ of the Welsh, at all. There is simply no need: they are confident in their own position, certainly not needing the artificial imposition of a comfort blanket of either niche language or arcane custom to establish a fading distinctiveness. (Although mastery of such an important global language may even have a value, as it’s always useful to have transferable skills in this shrinking world. One could even end up working in Patagonia, the other place where the Welsh language apparently has a function apart from promoting a national identity whilst confusing 75% of the locals, and all visitors, with unnecessary road signs designed only to emphasise - if emphasis is necessary - that the Welsh are 'different' and therefore need, neurotically, for the world to know it. Australia works quite well, after all, as a country streets ahead of the Welsh in both confidence and optimism, but without resorting to a need for Aboriginal petroglyphs identifying the Sydney Bridge...) (And while on this particular soapbox, why is it that one has to pay on the Severn Crossing when entering the Principality, yet to leave Wales is encouragingly free? Perhaps to encourage the wizards to desert a little sinking saucepan, Bach?)

You see what I’m getting at, Jan? You encourage your own insults, yet then complain when they strike home!

It is not ‘the English’ that erode the ‘Welshness’ of Wales: it’s the Englishness of the mass media, of the internet, and the forces of insidious globalisation. The English just happen to live next door... Unless Wales rides the wave it will cease to evolve: imagine if the tables were turned, Jan, and it was England that had failed to progress – a nation of Morris Dancers speaking Yorkshire just does not bear thinking about...

Sure: it’s easy to snipe when heads so easily appear above such a fragile parapet. Sure: such ‘humour’ can be painful – but only when the target is painted so large and is so regularly touched up by the fragile protestors themselves. Wales has so much to be proud of, not the least of which is a sense of national identity now so sadly invisible in England PC. But pride comes, they say, before a fall and – unless boneddigrwydd is embraced by everyone – all that Jan Morris can achieve through such vitriol is an acceleration of the inevitable. Or perhaps this was, and is, the object of her pebble-tossing?

Jason

This is typical anti-English propaganda. Most English people I know have been brainwashed into thinking that the Welsh are these wonderful mysterious Celts and would fall over themselves to prove a bit of Welsh ancestry. The Welsh don't seem very grateful for all the English tax money that gets sent over the border. It seems like no matter what England does it's always the bad guy. Never mind that it is England that subsidises the rest of the UK. Wales shouldn't bite the hand that feeds it. If they hate England so much then they should leave the UK and go it alone, because England sure as hell doesn't need them.

Stephen Gash

Huh! What a load of twaddle this article is.

Devolution has revealed the hatred our 'fellow Brits' have for the English. The thin gilt of 'friendly banter' has been worn away exposing the lustreless base-metal of Anglophobic bigotry beneath.
The deadliest enemies of the English are the British and the greatest threat to England is the misnamed 'United' Kingdom.
This article merely confirms the centuries-old Anglophobia pervading the Celtic psyche.
One thing for sure is that post-devolution Britain will never allow England to receive more spending per head than any of the Celtic nations. Hence the move to replace England with reviled regions.
The only answer the Welsh have in this recession is to moan for more English money. The Welsh attitude to the English has always been more of a whing than a welcome in the hillsides.
I tell you what. We'll have Monmouthshire back in England where it belongs, and the Welsh can take Wales and declare independence.

IMarcher

He says “so what” when the Welsh speak Welsh when the English arrive.
An old family friend, an Irishwoman brought up in Wales and living in England, when on holiday in Wales was charged more for her groceries in a village shop than the Welsh woman in front of her, because the shopkeeper assumed she was English and didn’t understand what he was saying to his Welsh customer. Unfortunately for him, our friend was bilingual in Welsh and stormed out of the shop, affronted at this ‘racial bigotry’. Most people would not respond ‘so what’ to this discrimination.
And talk about prejudice – how does he know ‘every London taxi-driver’ has been to Prestatyn or Gwynedd? And as to the sweeping ‘racial’ stereotyping of the English as being 'blank' and ‘weasly’, with an ‘inherited national instinct’, words fail! He even blames Welsh obesity on the English! He whinges that the National Assembly of Wales has no tax raising powers, when the English don’t have a national assembly at all! When is he going to complain about that? By the way, Wales’s ‘indefatigable patriots’ did not secure the Welsh assembly. Wales got a ‘national’ assembly in order to turn Wales into a region of the EU. He pretends to be so concerned about generalized mockery and racial bigotry, yet I don’t recall him ever complaining about politicians’ denigration of the English, with their lies about “ugly English nationalism” (oh yeah – did I miss the English burning of holiday homes? – come to that why hasn’t Morris mentioned the Welsh burning English holiday homes?), or traditional “violence”, or denial of the very existence of the English people. We can see the hypocrisy of the chattering class by simply altering the nationalties in a lamentation from this article: “the immigrants are, year by year, diminishing the Englishness of England — heedlessly, not by a war of attrition, but by a war of intrusion. Hardly a town is without its immigrant-owned second homes, its Pakistani voices in its schoolyard, Asian shops on its corners”. Such sentiments would be dismissed as ‘racist’ because mocking the English is the last permitted bigotry.

Nicholas Storey

The Cornish are a generally unseen and silent minority and, although much more under the cosh of the English than are the Welsh,still subjected to English derision too. However, such bad manners do not concern me enough to protest at any length. There is one point arising, from the posts above, on which correction is needed. Not all of the British who have the gumption to go to live somewhere sunny and where ordinary personal freedoms are not increasingly stamped upon by the State, wear sola topees or handkerchiefs on their heads (depending on their class), live in exclusive condominiums, dream of battered cod and chips and think that shouting loud enough at Johnny Foreigner in English is just the job. The British generally are being marginalized, derided, parodied, trampled on and marginalized and it really is about time to pull together and stop the rot instead of writing articles indulging in gazing at the respective navels of Hengist and Horsa.

Stephen Gash

Speaking of Prestatyn, the Prat (it's the same in Welsh) of Prestatyn, John Prescott, wrote "There is no such nationality as English".
An Anglophobic bigotted Welshman like Prescott, attracts mockery to his countryfolk.

Terry

Charles Jaggers said "we Welsh are bigger than the English childish jibes"

Yeah right. Here we have a BBC reporter who admits to hating the English...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1512096.stm

and here we have evidence that the feeling is widespread...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/english-the-victims-of-racism-in-wales-710971.html

and not just contained to words...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7656442.stm

and here, they attack horses that are suspected of being English...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-557741/Thugs-slash-horses-face-anti-English-attack-Wales.html

Childish jibes and "mocking" would be welcomed!

Maybe if we should stop giving them our hard earned money, they might be a bit more grateful.

Myself

Some of you claim that English insults against the Welsh do not happen and ask for examples. One of the ridiculous things English people keep saying is mentioned by Jan Morris - the story about going into a pub and everyone is speaking English then suddenly changing into Welsh. An Englishman claimed this to me the other day. I honestly can't think why you English are convinced a group where all the people are Welsh speakers would speak English to each other until they see an Englishman, unless of course you just can't accept that Britain could have any other native language than English. Just look at the complaints below, one of you can't stand that we have our own word for 'taxi'. To the ones who say they spend no time insulting Welsh people, that may be the case for you, but as a Welsh person I get it all the time, insinuations about our relationship with sheep for example, imitations of the way we speak ("from the valleys are we, that's lovely"). Some of it might be harmless but some isn't.
As to the insinuation that we pick on English people, come to north east Wales once, there are almost more of you than there are of us, how could we pick on you?

Toby

How Bizarre... If I'd known that whilst growing up in Wales and being beaten up regularly for not being Welsh (and precisely because I WAS English) that I was the bigot, I probably would've felt jolly guilty...

Mererid Siaradsens

Blanket statements presented as fact: yawn. My mother's auntie's Welsh cousin was a nationalist idiot, therefore they all are. Etc. The comments are hilarious, and the ones about language are particularly chucklesone - ooh, you gotta fear the bilinguals and their different ways.

Oh, and by the way, taxi is similar in many languages. But it's not 'Taksi' in Welsh. We don't do 'k's. Like, duh.

fred forsythe (not the)

ANDREW SAYS:"Its high time England got off its high horse and started dealing with other nations as equals.

Here in Scotland I have never heard anyone say a bad word against the Welsh. Plenty of jokes about the English though."

Equals are self sufficient and independent. When you are both you will be entitled to valid comment.
We English never joke about the Scots or Welsh, they are not funny. We would not think of them at all if we did not have to keep them.

Victoria Hamilton

hey, guess what, its not all that original, indigenous africans from poor village to a bit poorer village do it too, its one of the many hideous and plain banal sides to humanity

Taffy Ashton

The English are of course developing their own sense of Englishness, as distinct from being British, witness the Cross of Saint George now being waved at the international football and rugby matches, instead of the Union Jack. English sports fans used to wave the British Union Jack in the mistaken belief that this was an English flag. This was resented in Wales and Scotland. However, it is worth noting that the simultaneuos erosion of a British sense of identity which this symbolises, plays nicely into the hands of Brussels. There are many in Europe who would like to see Great Britain broken up into its component part and each one weakened. It would be much easier to manipulate us all then.

Paul

Actually it is racism against the English that is socially acceptable. Try wearing an England shirt in Wales or Scotland and see how long you get to live. Lenny Henry makes racist jokes against the Native English and it's called art. The fact is, the English are the most tolerant people on the planet. No other nation would put up with 50yrs of mass immigration, without bloodshed.

david rodway

I am Engilsh and live in a Welsh-speaking part of Wales. I've never encountered anything but friendliness and hospitality from the Welsh. The anti-Welsh claptrap and anti-minority language junk on these comments do however represent the views of many of my fellow Engish who live here or visit in passing. They feel superior, end of story. They look down on the Welsh and resent their language. They brand them racists when they ask that people who move here learn a modicum of Welsh, and they deride their history and culture. I agree with Jan Morris.
I'm ashamed but not suprised by the anti-welsh bile and clichés I've seen on this page - it's only a matter of time before the old 'I walked into a pub and they all changed to Welsh' line.
Many of us English learn no languages, are anti-European and live by the anglo-supremacist credo that all foreigners are inferior. But many of us who live in Wales love the place and its people, and are ashamed at the pap being spouted here.

david rodway

PS - prime example linguistic arrogance from David Short on taxis and Cardiff - he seems to think Taxi is an English word! All languages use a version of the word Taxi, from France to Turkey. They spell it in different ways, (as in the Turkish Taksi). I find these anglo-supremacists don;t now even about their own English linguistic history! They'll be saying that television, radio etc are English words!
10% of the Cardiff population speaks Welsh David.
Do you actually know anything, or are you just seeing the whole world through your prejudice?
Perhaps you're called Dafydd?

david rodway

Terry - the story you cite about Beca Brown is a crock - it wa sinvestigated and shown that she had nothing to answer to. Also she is English. She moved to Wales when she was a kid and has English parents. The article - that was highly selectively quoted by someone well-known for attacking Welsh-speaking culture - does not say what you purport it to say (I know, I can read the original), and you carefully don;t cite the stories that followe din which she was not only cleared by her attackers were caught out.
If the rest of your so-called facts are like that then I rest my case.
I'm English, live in Wales, learned Welsh and like and respect my neighbours. I've never encountered any prejudice, violence or threat.

Patrick McGuinness

I too am English and live in Welsh-speaking Wales (Caernarfon). My children go to school in Welsh-medium education and I'm one of a number of English parents with kids here. We've never encountered any of this so-called anti-English attitude. But then again, we obviously respect the Welsh more than some of the people on this site!
I love it - Jan Morris writes a piece about anti-Welsh bigotry , and she gets, in response, a farrago of ... er... anti-Welsh bigotry. QED as the Romans used to say. Ranging from clichés about the language to accusations of racism (the idea that one people is 'more' racist or parochial than another is idiotic), to lectures on linguistics (form people who don't even seem to know their native English), to pseudo-economic 'factoids' about how the English subsidize the Welsh - none of which is supported.
As for the so-called economic contribution of Wales, we might consider how much of the wealth Wales generated in mining and steel for Great Britain it actually kept for itself (hardly any), and what it got in return for putting generations of its people to work down mines (very little - except for the odd lecture from Welsh-hating anglo-nationalists). We might also think about the drowning of Welsh villages to provide water (uncosted) for English cities, and the mockery the protestors received when they went to make their case (they were told they had no culture, were spat at and mocked in the streets of Liverpool, etc).
When look at the minority-culture-hating rubbish on this comments site, I'm astounded my Welsh neighbours have managed to stay as tolerant as they have. The last time I heard one of them complain about the English was when they objected to the English fascist Nick Griffin moving to Wales with a crowd of other Nationalist morons.
One of the reasons I and many others who live in Wales (whether Welsh, English or whatever) would like to see Wales move towards more self-government is so that we don't have to have Wales dictated to by the kind of people who have so liberally paraded their bigotry and ignorance on this site in the last week or so.

Andrew

A) I reserve my right to mock any nationality or religion, and do so as I please. Anyone who doesn't like it can go away because I believe in freedom of speech and more importantly, a bit of banter.

B) It should be frowned upon to take offence too easily, which is what everyone is doing these days.

C) Let's not forget that the Welsh towns like Swansea, and even Cardiff were created by the English and that the Welsh were not allowed inside. Why should we call them names which were made up by people who weren't even allowed to live there?! I have no doubt James of St George would entirely agree with me...

D) More importantly, let's get rid of the Scots from the Union, all they bring is never ending wingeing and rotten politics...

Sonya Porter

Oh no, no, no! The last permitted (in fact, it is encouraged)bigotry is anti-Englishness. The whole world can do it and there's nothing we can do about it. We can't even call it racism.

Ken Davies

There is no such word in English (and probably not in Welsh, as far as my limited knowledge of the language of my fathers goes) as "weasly". Do you mean "weaselly", or are you referring to Ginny Weasly in the Harry Potter novels?

john McThomas

Taxi IS derived from England. It was first used in 1907 when the term taxi cab was born. Any other form of taxi, i.e. the word taxi in any other language comes from this.
as far as the we speak welsh so that automatically makes us superior to you brigade go, why do they feel the need to waffle in welsh? why can't they talk crap about english people in english? of course, they jabber on because they think it's a big laugh to be annoying to english people. well, if the welsh want to be taken seriously they need to grow the heck up. They need to act like adults. Sniggering about how you got one over on the English is very, very immature indeed. I have walked into shops in wales and experienced the silent treatment and the welsh trait of going from talking in English to welsh to. Why do the welsh feel the need to attract attention? why are they attention seekers? It is because they feel inferior. Those who feel inferior act inferior. The welsh need to grow up. They need to stop talking about the past when it suites them. They need to stop going on about how great wales is if all they're going to do is harp on about the past. grow up for god's sake!!!

Robert Heming

Jan certainly struck a nerve with her article. She also unearthed a lot of grumpiness, sourness and nastiness. All under the guise of denying her thesis. Despite the denials by many respondents, perhaps she has a point

Caractacus

Hi...
As I am new to this forum,I would like to introduce myself... I am who I am..A Welshman living in Canada
The name is Caractacus..The Welsh King that made macaroni out of Caesar's breechcloth.(Not Julius,cos' he never got that far)
Firstly,can someone point out how to identify as to who is talking to whom with the current layout.
Bearing that in mind I will place my first observations on the table(an old Bushism.so to speak)

I started reading the forum a couple of days ago and found Jan Morris's article somewhat challenging and rather incitefull..Oooops sorry.. I mean Insightful..
The deception...sorry again This keyboard is really acting up ..I'll start afresh
The perception from some is that the English people are apparently as 'Andrew' pontificates(below) thus...."most nationalistic nations on earth".. "look down on other nations" .."studiously refuse to learn the local language".."are hostile to outsiders" "fearful of being swamped at home"..."started dealing with other nations as equals".."all the while criticising patriotism and pride in others"... "want to be treated as sahibs wherever they go"

(Sahiba/Sahibs was a condition of respectfulness in India in Colonial Times for authoritative white Europeans ; It was used after the name).

This approach path to a very sensitive internal problem is to say the least...pompous and performed in a quite shameful and dogmatic manner
Pragmatic shots(Practical) must be the order of the day..every day..They may be hard-headed at times,even a matter-of-fact appoach can be tolerated at times considering the sensibility that must be of concern.

Jan
When readers,be they educated or not, see the insinuation and innuendo then blatant ingratiation,for gaining acceptance and affection for yourself by persuasive and insidious blandishments(teasing-flattery) ,their sensory system automatically kicks in..and they smell a rat (for want of a better expression)

Jung's pragmatic methods with his Theory of Enticement prides itself on the credo that one should ALWAYS provide the insult BEFORE one tells the transparent calculated lie..You perfected and bore witness to Jung's 3rd Law of Cerebral Massage in the statement below, found in the first three paragraphs.. page one of your hateful article.
I say "hateful" fully aware that there is currently great emphasis in the Western World in engendering(spawning) the differences in cultural and social human activities into one great "Hate Crime Law" that would raise George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) from his grave ..crying and shaking in disgust.and pleading "Mea maxima culpa,"

Your "activation/stimulation/arousal" words have been duly noted in the very first paragraph.."Germans..racial bigotry ....genocide... evils... war.. Jews..blacks...wogs..frogs..Micks...Poles..Eyeties..Muslims"..et al

Jan..sez
"Nobody in all England lives further than 100 miles from a Welsh border,yet the public ignorance of the English about this intimate and ultimate neighbour is sad to contemplate"

Lack of knowledge is a totally acceptable progressive pre-condition of Learnedness.....Laziness and the auto-acceptance of guesswork is not an acceptable discipline for the Spectator online.. I am quite sure

In the North..Bamburg Castle, Northumberland(NNE from Welsh Border and well below the Scots border) is 180.43 miles away from Flintshire which is just below the North Wales capital..'Liverpool':-)).....
In the South,.Chepstow Monmouthshire is 177.79 miles..to Ramsgate/Margate in Kent..Even Nautical miles would be an exaggeration .
From the Welsh Border to the innermost coasts of England ..The Thames Estuary to Cheptow is 141.42 miles
The Wash at Lincolnshire is 118.15 miles from Flintshire..Therefore the nearestness of the Eastern coast of England (North Sea)is 118.15 miles
Chepstow(Monmouthshire) to Bognor Regis(West Sussex) =100 miles..

So starting at the Northern most point of the Scotti(an Irish Tribe)and English(Angles)border...down the FULL and longest (Eastern) coast of England, then around the English "Witches Rump"(Ips and Nor) down to sunny Margate ..around the Southern corner to the picture perfected pulchritudinous Dover and along to good old Brighton and then to Bognor Regis(what CAN one say about Bognor Regis)..is Considerably well outside Jan's United Kingdom

Hence from here on(from Bognor Regis),.Jan's casual comment of conflicting metrological conditions is true...(except half of Cornwall)....Even the Isle of White is inside Jan's Phishing zone..JUST
As the crow/pigeon flies, we have 352.26 + 324.66 + 173.78 = 850.71 of Englander coastline of which 192.27miles(English and Bristol Channels) is inside the 100 mile limit.(except half of Cornwall of course.. that's three sides)
I trust from here on that Jan will not throw scorn at her pigeons when they get back a little late from..say Dover and stop adopting that accusative stance and charging said pigeons of "sight seeing " after their long trip back from Germany... and from behind enemy lines too.

Old (fictitious)
"Nobody in all England lives further than 100 miles from a Welsh border,yet the public ignorance of the English about this intimate and ultimate neighbour is sad to contemplate" (Agenda compatible)

New (trueness)
"Nobody in all Wales lives further than 100 miles from a English border,yet the public ignorance of the Welsh about this intimate and ultimate neighbour is sad to contemplate" (Be Aware..NOT agenda capable)

Do you think we should vote on it Jan:-)You want proof..Can you handle it..Good.

Proof
Hay-on-Wye in Powys mid Wales on the ENGLISH border =98.54 miles from Ynys Dewi(Ramsey Island) Pembrokeshire(includes the 4 Rock Island lines 3 miles west of Ramsey in the Atlantic Ocean)

Ramsgate..part Eastern England...
Ramsey partWestern Wales
Is there a rationale here somewhere?

One wonders at times, why the old Scribes and Monks... (say) Gildas(Welsh) and Bede(English) back in the 6th and 8th centuries(resp) could be so more precise in their judgements of distance than our beloved author of this article..Do you think living by yourself sustains the memory banks maybe..Do you think that not living by yourself strains the memory and cripples the banks..Be as it may you say..Should all BBC Wales narrators/narratess's, storytellers and fun loving wannabee Druids spend 10-15 years in a prime Monks habitat..You can be the Judge and Druiry..I mean Jury.

Roger Angove..Very well expressed indeed Rodger (with a "D".).. Rod for short..Masculine and mighty.
I totally agree.

Ray sez"this quaint little mountain province Wales or Cymru.".."silliness of having dual names ".."please can all the road maps and road signs..."
Don't come to Canada as the French and English descriptions on ALL products will give you good reason to be further confused..Even the imports from China must have dual specs...But NOBODY complains about it.
Don't you think Raymond that you are being a little light-headed and Monty Pythonish on what could be a very serious problem for your children and possibly their children...be they Limey,Taffy, Jocks or Paddies

If you are having problems getting around Wales...then buy a satellite router..Welsh of course...If you have the cash, there are many manufacturers out there that are marketing high resolution HD ,wireless(of course-dur) digital multi-language routers that will fart for you.. if you programme it correctly...
Sit down with a couple of mates who has a similar aversion and come up with an idea that could alleviate the problem..A problem that probably many hundreds of thousands have....and get rich while doing it..

Ian Skidmore sez
..."I was dropped by the BBC in Wales for the crime of being English..

But then Ian you went on to spell "extraditon".."traditon".."beurocracy.."....No Ian, it is not you BEING English ..its just(somebody else tell him please)..Don't blame the English boss in Wales Ian..Its your English is to blame ...spelling that is....I like the English,but not the spelling.:-)
Just a thought...Is the Cymric starting to wear you down..They do have a couple more vowels than you.
When I make a misake in gramer or spelin Ian..I have a legitimate excuse...I'm Welsh..What's yours.
I just hope to God that you are keeping your cutting and pasting to a bare minimum Ian ,else you could do more harm than the Italian and Spanish Inquisitions combined...Philologists and Lexicologists will be out of work..On the Dole...and they hate that word "dole"..Thats the reason they came up with the alternatives 'shell or parcel out'

Ian sez "aliens are always the most committed..."Napoleon".."Catherine".."Hitler ".."IRA Chief of Staff "
Ian is attempting to exemplify (illustrate) that both he and Jan are English and how committed they were/are to the BBC Wales, comparable with/just like Napoleon...Catherine...Hitler ... and the IRA chief and were not necessarily born in the country they controlled..I think Ian should renew his efforts in Googling another set of "associated idols" in his next illustration...and one wonders why the young Welsh kids are misled/led astray sometimes...sheeesh.

Ian sez."The finest manufactured item in Wales is their own history"
You are under a massive disadvantage here Ian,.just like 98% of the worlds population.You cannot understand/read both Old English and most definitely Old Welsh..What you are repeating is inherently just that..So much easier to manage(memorised copy and pasted) and if ever one Historian should be doubted or gets into etymological and problems with humanistic studies of languages and literature, then there is always another with a similar charge..
Like the old London Copper saying goes "Hello Hello Hello..What do we have here then..Lets move along now"...End of tuition for today..See you tomorrow children.

Just as he has been schooled..Ian puts to paper the classical takedown of the 'last Welsh Prince of Wales'."Owain Glyndwr"(14/15c) as they have also done for the past 1500/1600 years with the Welsh King..."Arthur"..What Ian is wholly incognisant of is that the History Books in "Private Libraries" has not as yet surfaced for the ordinary bloke in the street, They pulls his caricature of Historical truthfulness to absolute shreds..Cannot blame Ian as this is how/what he was lectured..
Hence the disparaging term "Lectured" ...to be bawled out....to be lambasted.....to be rebuked....to be dressed down....to be called on the carpet... to be taken to task.....et al.
.
Billy Shakespeare,not known for his fidelity in historical matters is much more accurate than the brief that Ian raves about in his deposition above.

It appears that this whole response from Ian has been deliberately engineered in its design by some group/team/assembly/community/ and pieced together while being 'nurtured' to supplement Jan's outcry of 'shame on you Pommies'..This is the rationale for taken these two budding Orwellian's to task

John Thomas..sez
"Wales today has a new, renewed confidence - in its culture "..
See Andrew re..'Wales is a nation that has managed to preserve its identity in the face of an aggressive invasion' and Doug's..'try putting up with the relentless affirmation of the greatness of Wales'..
It is as they highlight..It is not new and the renewal process stems back for thousands of years..It is perpetual in its aeonianic and ageless existence..Just like the Jews...
"Renewal" suggests there was an end and then a replacement ..That is NOT the case...Replenishment YES

Mark Anderson.sez
."because the Welsh wars of the English were never quite like their other wars, and never did end in a Plassey, a Waterloo, an Omdurman or an Alamein, a brooding sense of dissatisfied resentment was perhaps left behind in the English subconscious"..."Plus, the Romans owned "wales" for over four hundred years." ..This article is nothing more than a bitter, childish, histrionic rant."

Mark dear chap,what a very childish manner you have in/by assuming that the English are walking the streets of Blighty today with their heads down between their legs just because your anamnesis that passes for Historical knowledge is limited to 250 years of battles...one of which lasted only two weeks + a day...I think that when Winston Churchill said "Before Alamein we never had a victory. After Alamein we never had a defeat." I just cannot see him referencing in his mindset all that which had gone on 1,965 years before(the "Caractacus" period).....However,he was a limited scholar was he not?..But you should approach your own History teacher and ask him his opinion...

You do know that the Romans owned the English and not the Welsh at this time in the evolution of Britannica ..All paid up and present..The English were by far the best fighting mercenaries the Romans had..How the hell Mark do you think the Angles got into Piccadilly Circus in the first place..Remember this is 400 years before the Welsh(Cymru) hired the very same Angles(descendants of) and the Saxons to get rid of those pesky Picti and Scotti (Irish tribe) from way up north..Above Northumberland.

I do partially agree with you that this article is a kind of melodramatic splodge ,but you are only forming your conclusions on the content and not the content and the emotionalism in the reactions/responses..Ask yourself the question "Why would the Spectator just permit as you say a "histrionic rant"..There is method to all madness nowadays..Your problem is that you want it to come up from behind you and bite you on the ass..It has to be obvious..a no brainer before you pass your one paragraph limit.

The Romans owned the Welsh for over four hundred years you say..I suggest Mark that you firstly learn Modern Welsh then Old Welsh and some Latin..Also Old English and Middle German...Just learning those two languages and Latin will give you all the epinephrin (adrenalin) you are looking for..For you will find Mark that as much as that which has been deliberately destroyed by the Victors(and losers) over the last three thousand years Much remains..More than enough to satisfy that the actions of our World can still be found by research, translation and interpretation and the truth be known..
So make haste Mark and Design,Engineer and Manufacture your two-seater Time Machine (don't forget your video camera at lift off)....did I hear someone snigger then:-)

J lilburn...sez
"I think you'll find that the English are victims more than any other in this so called united kingdom. Here is an analogy...et al"
Very insightful(not inciteful) answer Jill....Perception is 90% of all potential resolution

Helen Wright..sez
"You(Jan Morris-assumed) made your bed with bigoted zeal. Don't whinge about it now, unless you plan to clear up your racists, which clearly you don't."
The WHOLE message from Helen indicates that the writer of the column(Jan) has found at least one individual here that fits the profile of "potential assistant" in spreading smear and discontent in any future articles/events etc. The other Helen at 23 July 1.07pm does not qualify...
Please Ms Wright..look over your shoulder You may be being used inadvertently.

Terence Patrick Hewett.
Ave Caesar! Morituri te salutant!
Mea culpa,
Mea maxima culpa,
Crux sancta sit mihi lux,
Non draco sit mihi dux,
Vade retro Satana,
Numquam suade mihi vana,
Sunt mala quae libas,
Ipse venena bibas.

What is Terry attempting to say here..but more importantly "to whom"... In this revised Latin prayer of exorcism against Satan

translated
Hail,Caesar, those who are about to die salute you.
My own fault
My most grievous fault
Let the Holy Cross be my light
Let not the snake lead me
Step back Satan
Begone Satan! Never tempt me with your vanities!
What you offer me is evil.
Drink the poison yourself

(Shows how old this gentleman is...Looks 'Vulgar' I know ,but its not too bad.)
He obviously is not addressing Julius because Caesar would have ask him just one question
"What's this bloody "Holy Cross" you're jabbering about Terry"
Could be Claudius or..et al

Maybe the continuance here to Terry's Latinised outburst(why did he stop?) will fill in some blanks for us?
"Cruz sacra sit mihi lux! Nunquam draco sit mihi dux"
(May the Holy Cross be my light! May the dragon never be my guide!).

Is Terence actually bowing down to Jan(Caesar) and at the very same time acknowledging the
strength possessed but still fighting the evilness that surrounds this circle of commentators(you and me mate)
that willingly and unknowingly walked into this devils pit ..

Terence stops before thee "May the holy cross be my light! May the dragon never be my guide"
The Dragon...could he have meant the Red Dragon of Wales..or the bleached white one of England
Is Terence an Med-Englishman in Welsh sheep clothing...and is that his rationale for the Latin Speak.. Questions..Always more questions..Never any damn answers with this Latinised codswallop.

I think the last Englishman that used a Latin phrase was Alfred...after he burnt the cakes...Some Historians swear blind that it was Latin..The more scholarly Ph.D's define it as just an old Scotti tribal blessing that Alf picked up when he was up North

Terry could have "sticked it" out and said it in Coelbren ..a Welsh language that
the forefathers used a few thousand years ago and not as THOSE HISTORIANS (Welsh and English )have you believe..See my remark to another 'commentator' below regarding "Welsh being Celts indeed-bull "

Pheez
"I honestly don't agree with you on this Jan. I work in a large university (in England) with a number of Welsh colleagues and am never aware of any predudice. On completing your artical I turned to one and asked her if I were missing something, and she said not and that although years ago, this used it be the case she certainly wasn't aware of it now."

Your honesty is so visible and sincere Pheez..
As much as you dislike causing anxiety for fellow companions, be aware and mindful to the fact that there are very manipulative people out there in that big world of ours who would sacrifice their soul for riches that we would not even consider moral,righteous,ethical or even honourable...They want to infect and infest the goodness in people knowing that the more kindly a person is..the more likelihood they can be "bought"(and sold)..and they enjoy that challenge.

Dave, surrey sez
"Nobody in all England lives further than 100 miles from a Welsh border..? Plain wrong unless I've misunderstood.. (maybe you need to get out of Swindon more)"

Being in Surrey,I bet that came as a big surprise mate when you couldn't see the Mountains of Snowdonia and its sheep.:-)
No need to ponder Dai..We found that Jan had her inside out map upside down, so she is going to read Bede's Books (all 5 of them..Assume she can speak Old English)and correct it ...Could be a long night for Jan.
Pray for her,as she needs all that she can muster to fight this devil that Terence Patrick Hewett speaks of above..

Ooops ..Just checked on Google Earth..
You're in it Dai..Right in it... Smack dab in the centre of all Surrey..100 Miles from the Welsh border
"The White Horse Pub" in Shere- 6 miles east of Guilford ..a Little Pissy ass pub..
Sorry about that mate..As Terence Patrick Hewitt (great name for a wicket-keeper or an explorer) would say "Mea culpa,Daffyd " but only if he were one of those old Welsh Monks from the 5/6th century..They couldn't,t find an Italian word for David so they used the Welsh one..Now the Italians have a lot of words for David apparently and you have probably heard them when Beckham scores for England,but they don't seem half as nice as the Welsh "Daffyd"..
Is it because Wales never score :-)..So the Italians keep their mouth shut.

RotorHead sez
"Oh, get over it. Sometimes I go all day without thinking something derogatory about Wales. In fact some days I don't think of Wales at all."

You did not finish RotorHead..Did you run out of characters..Here let me.."Then there are other days when I don't think AT ALL ..those are by far the best...no worries..no thoughts..no money ..no brains...no hope...bang"
You need to get out of this depression Rotor....can I call you Rotor..thanks....Ignore the Welsh,they can be thoughtful enough for everyone..Just look after yourself RH and you need not keep piling those pennies into the jamjar for the Salvation Army anymore as they can look after themselves to..

Over here in Canada Sally Ann has gone Public..No you dope,I don't mean 'out with the public' (heavens forbid) They call them "Thrifts Shops" and they get a lot of thinking people(what was that RotorHead ?) going to all sorts of other people(shady..very shady and very very shady) and just getting things...They be filing tax returns next year..Progress 'eh.. Pilgrims Progress(ha ha)...
Just realised Rotor..Your name spells backwards as well...that's smart ..really really smart mate.
Keep on thinking but be more choosing..Forget the Welsh, as they already think "They Are The Chosen"..Little do they know that the patent has already been filed...Nice chatting to you RH (my Right Hand man)

Andrew sez
A lot about the need for English people to accept ,more or less ,EVERYTHING..
They apparently "look down on other nations".."most nationalistic nations on earth".."studiously refuse to learn the local language".."are hostile to outsiders" "fearful of being swamped at home".."started dealing with other nations as equals".."all the while criticising patriotism and pride in others".."want to be treated as sahibs wherever they go"

Meaning...Sahiba/Sahibs was a condition of respectfulness in India in Colonial Times for authoritative white Europeans ; It was used after the name.

Then
A.."It's not just Wales. The English have a profound need to look down on other nations, and its high time they got over it.
B.."Why on earth should they [Welsh]not speak their own language in their own country for heavens sake?"
C.."Here in Scotland I have never heard anyone say a bad word against the Welsh. Plenty of jokes about the English though"

"It's not just Wales" ...Why do you include Wales so non-chalantly when you are driving the instrument of execution through every English person's lifeline..One could consider that you seem quite vindictive, bordering on vengefulness..Not a very helpful position to put yourself in Andy..

"Here in Scotland I have never heard anyone say ..et al" You also said ".."all the while criticising patriotism and pride in others"..A joke can cut like a knife and that knife can be hidden

"Why on earth should they [Welsh]not speak their own language "..I don't think the Welsh are having any significant problems with their language.

Doug sez
"try putting up with the relentless affirmation of the greatness of Wales, the level of pride that if exhibited by an Englishman would get them classed as 'racist'

This is not the impression I have witnessed,but I know instinctively that you are correct...What is it that pits the minority , one or many against the stronger majority..There again I really don't think its a "what" but a "who"..and why..Why do the Host always got to defend against those that should be thankful..The common denominator of the "Who" is like the proverbial 9000lb elephant sitting outside the Governors mansion with a big bag of cash..and they then try to tell us that the Protocols of the Elders is just all a hoax..Sure

"No-one in England ever wrote a song called 'As Long As We Beat The Welsh'...".
Nothing rhymes with Welsh. that the reason:-)..................Cymri..Cymru.Cymric..Khymri Khymric..Khymru...YES
You do know Doug that the words Welsh and Wales are derogatory Old German names/words..The Angles and Saxons never looked ahead..except when they were paid Roman mercenaries..then Cymru mercenaries, kicking the Picti and Scotti(Irish Tribe) asses all over Northumberland.
I'm sure Cliff Richard with come up with something sooner or later..Has he got a #1 this decade yet??
Would an instrumental from Hank Marvin and the Shadows suffice..Old Jet Harris would appear if I asked him nicely..Assuming Welch and Bennett are still there(There's that word "Welch" again..English spelling of course)..
That would provide Thomas(Woodward/)Jones the impetus to start a new band....an over 70's band singing the 70's music..Note to Self..."What a brilliant idea..Got to phone Tom tonight"

A compromise Doug...Tom Jones fronting the Shadows,but they must ALL wear miners lamps on their head with a jet black rear curtain and a couple of 100 watt incandescent bulbs stuck in the corners ....with a spare long life battery for Tom..Cant take any chances these days..Total cost, less than 6 quid + insurance on Hank's and Jet's guitars = Total Cost $12,000,000 (pound is $1.60)...Shall I make the call..Cheap over here after midnight.:-)
Sorry about that I just lost my pound key:-)

MikeF sez
"Actually the last permitted bigotry is that of accusing anyone who thinks outside the box of the left-liberal consensus of being a 'bigot'. You can usually find an example in The Independent or The Guardian any day of the week."

You right Michael..Cannot think of any genuine Engineer, Scientist or (say)Philosopher that thought that a complete consensus was required before anything lifts off the ground.
Don't understand how this part "of the left-liberal consensus " contributes to the sentence as I am 5000 miles here in Canada and although still a Welsh-Brit I am still attempting to understand new words like "whinge" and the frequent use of "brilliant" and many more that has me reading the Spectator and others..
It seems that the print media policies set down by the big blokes over there have completely reversed the status quo's of the 1970's..I still cannot believe the change in the London Times..

John Thomas sez
Continued antipathy by the English to Wales is explicable by way of Connor Cruise O'Brien's principle that you never hate anyone as much as a people you have persecuted; this is too strong, here; the English never really persecuted the Welsh, nor do the English hate them; but the principle is the same.
And yes, as Jan Morris implies in the last paragraphs, Wales today has a new, renewed confidence - in its culture - that England has totally lost (though it may recover it some day, when the present awful multiculturalism and diversity receives the reaction against it that it deserves, and ordinary white English people cease to be reviled by their own government).

John....I assume with the surname and the tenderness you handle whatever conflict may/may not be with the English people.. that you are a Welshman..I'll try even harder..You are over 55 years old..If I'm wrong,don't tell me :-))
Have you ever establish the population percentage differential between the English and the Welsh in respect to
total incoming immigrants, foreign casual workers and holiday makers and any other groups(say) that would create possible alarm to the native peoples.What are the numbers

I have been reading and replying for hours(1st day) to comments that just outlines the current problems in the UK..It reminds me(in late1970's) of our Group Engineering Meetings at a well known Appliance Manufacturer, where I as Manager needed professional thinking people who could leave their College/University days/classes teaching outside on the road , as then ,as is now ,no systematic critical thinking methods were ever applied to problems...They had however been developed many years prior.

I read your comment and I ask myself several obvious questions and I find that your simple proportional analogy(your assumption) between the English/Welsh non-conflict with that of Conner O'Brian's principle of hate and persecution ratios ..
I am aghast at the premiss that you believe that the Zionistic Laws of O'Brian (that's where he got them..Its Freudian)applies to the greater makeup of all things normal..Drawing a comparison in order to show a similarity..It is the size exaggeration of that similarity and conclusions that gives me heartburn..Just for the sake of a "comment"

"when the present awful multiculturalism and diversity receives the reaction against it that it deserves, and ordinary white English people cease to be reviled by their own government."
Get off your ass and do something John..

"when the present awful"..."awful "
Cannot imagine anybody speaking like that.
If there be good men then there be no need for any inflammatory or seditious behaviour..
JUST THINK AS A GROUP AND FEED OFF EACH OTHER..HAVE YOU NOT EVER BEEN IN A "GROUP THINK-TANK" WITH FULL SELF DISCIPLINE BEING MONITORED by CHAIRPERSON...Sheeesh

Donald Breyer

You say "...it is instantly advantageous to tell foreigners that you are Welsh, not English." I say "Not so". Telling people that you are English still gets a lot of good will in the US. Telling them you're Welsh...well many more people here are familiar with a welsher than a Welshman. In fact I've never heard anyone identify themselves as Welsh in the US.

caractacus

Donald Breyer Sez
August 4th, 2009 5:28pm
"" You say "...it is instantly advantageous to tell foreigners that you are Welsh, not English." I say "Not so". Telling people that you are English still gets a lot of good will in the US. Telling them you're Welsh...well many more people here are familiar with a welsher than a Welshman. In fact I've never heard anyone identify themselves as Welsh in the US.""

Donald old chap..Who in hell is your snarky reply for....or is it your manner in getting a hate punchline on record without accusing anyone.
Check your etymological history Old Chap and you will find that the word was actually given to an Englishman,yes dear boy,to an Englishman in the 17th century while visiting Mid-Wales when "the Gentleman" refused to pay a merchant 1 shilling and 3 pence for items bought..He said they was not "genuine"..So he just walked away..Did he use body English and just dissappeared..No he became the very first "Welsher"
The question is does "Welsher" really mean the "screwing of a Welshman"..Just as a screwdriver means the driving of a screw.:-)

Later this became a pub(not public) saying in the London area for someone not paying their bets WHILE PLAYING CARDS..
Thats why you will never see a Welshman play 3 card brag with a Cockney.

Welshmen/women if born in the States WOULD MOST CERTAINLY CALLED THEMSELVES US AMERICANS and be proud of it.
Now Obama..I just don't know..

Your task for the next week Donny is to find a man born in Wales (not to be confused with the Australian province) and ask him his nationality.....and report back year promptly...and also bring back with you the URL for MY answer to "Welsher"....with a capital "W"

tommo

Hardly a town is without its English-owned second homes, its English-managed pub, English voices in its schoolyard, English shops on its corners, not to mention cultural importations like obesity and leylandii hedges, er yeah like we in England have had to fund Wales for however long paying for free prescriptions and allowing your teams to play in our football league when in reality you have your own league. You can't have it both ways.

Edward

"Nobody in all England lives further than 100 miles from a Welsh border."

I live in Norfolk, which is easily more than 100 miles from Wales, and unless the border has mysteriously shifted to incorporate THE WHOLE OF CAMBRIDGESHIRE overnight, I doubt this is an accurate statement.

"...because the Welsh wars of the English were never quite like their other wars, and never did end in a Plassey, a Waterloo, an Omdurman or an Alamein"

Are you attributing Plassey, Omdurman and El-Alamein to the English alone, because El-Alamein was fought by forces from The United Kingdom and their allies (wikipedia says Australia, India, New Zealand, South Africa, Greece and Free France), and Omduman was fought by the United Kingdom and Egypt. Though Plassey was fought by the British India Company, they represented the British interests over seas and may well have included some Welsh in their ranks.

"Of course they have had many other hereditary enemies... France...Colonies...Germans"

Colonies formed by Welsh/Scottish settlers too, don't forget. Just like the World War against Germany and her Allies was fought by troops all across Britain and Ireland. Or are you telling us every British soldier in the world wars was English?

"Cultural importations like obesity and leylandii hedges"

Wait. Are you telling us that before England slithered its way into Wales, everyone was lithe and athletic?

"They have, if not a parliament exactly, at least a National Assembly with some real powers."

Which is more than you can say about England, certainly.

"Perhaps they are beginning to understand why it is instantly advantageous to tell foreigners
that you are not English, but Welsh?"

I live in Norfolk, and so the only foreigners I'm likely to meet is people from Suffolk, but I can't see any advantage to claiming I'm Welsh, unless I'm in Wales or Scotland and wanted to avoid a savage beating.

Terry

David (sorry for the delay in responding) you say Beca Brown was investigated and was found to have nothing to answer?

She wrote (not said) that she hates the English "as a race, as people, as a country, and for what they've done to Wales and the Welsh"… and they found she nothing to answer?

She also went onto say “If there were such a thing as a Racists' Anonymous, I'd go there and say: 'I'm Beca, I'm Welsh and I'm racist.' I hate the English because they're the English”

Are you saying she didn’t say these words?

If not: if this kind of language is not considered racist in Wales, I can see why some are saying there isn’t an anti-English problem there. Do you want to eliminate a racist problem? Just redefine racism!

Karen Wraigsam

If you did visit the Eisteddfod then you will have encountered the Dragon. Deffror'r Ddraig is Awaken the Dragon and is a campaign to let all those residents of North East Wales know that they need not be swallowed up by Cheshire or Merseyside which would indeed make everywhere only 100 miles away. see righttobewelsh.com

Stevie Stedman

Hello there, I'm new to this thing here and caught this article as I was researching Wales and its lost history.

(forgive me as i may have a few typos on the way)

I'm 18 years old, on an Animation course in England. Once i graduate i plan on moving to Wales to take on the Celtic History Degree there.

I am English, i can trace my routes back to Poland, England, Wales, Ireland and France. So hows that for some culture ;3

I'm constantly studying the history of Wales and the rest of Celtic Britain and Europe.

There is history of Celtic peoples on this Island WELL before 500bc as Alfred the OK wrote. And when i can pull up my research i'll be sure to post that information up :3

Point is. None of that history is RELEVANT, concerning the above article as a lot of your comments are all pulling up history that doesn't matter.

Lets look at the facts TODAY.

The UK AND IRELAND are multicultural, we're becoming as much as a melting pot as America. It has it's pro's and con's, but either way, there's always something to take a jibe at.

At the same time, over history of language evolution, the english vocabulary has many welsh, french and other languages routed deeply into it.

The English have hated the Celts, France, Europe, Everywhere for as long as England has been voyaging the world.

The same can be said on the other foot. Whether we are Celtic, English, European, from the Americas, or Asian or anything........ We all take a jibe at another country.

I say this as a majority thing. I know plenty of irish, welsh and scottish people. I've heard PLENTY of jokes about every single one of our countries. No one is an exception..... neither is it a PROBLEM. Pub banter, random jokes....it's fine, it's fun. It's a laugh. To be able to laugh at yourself is what's fun. If you cant take a joke about your own culture when you know that part of that is true.......cause lets face it...I'm English, born and raised Londoner...we're egotistical, we tend to think of ourselves better than others. And other countries do the SAME. No ones exempt from this. (But not EVERYONE is like this. Personally i couldn't give a penny for whether someone is foreign or not. A persons a person.)

But that's the same with a lot of other places....everyone has some egotistical route.
Over history we've invaded many countries, warred with many countries.

In the end we get some routed suspicion of another; from our families, from STEREOTPYES, and from history. We get jokes and laughs; we laugh at them, we laugh at ourselves.

But there's having a laugh and then knowing the difference between that and flat out racism.

I'm at a University with so many people from all over the world. Yeah in the first few weeks you hear the jokes occasionally, then people moved on and got on with their lives and work and fun.

Wales is entitled to an ego, as are we. Wales has a wonderful language, and i'm pleased it's kept it's culture and it's language in tact, even after Englands attempt to quash it at a point in history. Welsh Knot/Not?

March 4th, Wales Yes party won the vote, and Wales now has control over some of the law in its country, just like Scotland. It's a step forward from being so closely dependant on England. It's doing well, slowly but surely, devolution is a progress that's happening...when it does....there will probably be a big to-do and more articles like this may pop up...

(you can tell i've lost my point. Forgive me.)

What i'm getting at, is you cant say one place is better than the other, or worse than the other. You cant even say that bigotry is permitted, it may not be PC but it's not something FORBIDDEN. Racism on the other hand is. Ridiculous jibes and banter is not a crime, it's a product of stereotyping and historical rivalry

And if it bothers you that much, why start a big thing about it? Because, and i speak for all the people /i know/. None of us care...not a single person i know, cares about slandering another country; English, Welsh or otherwise.

It isn't a real issue for our generation. People i know are more concerned with real issues like Uni fee's, Jobs, Education and living their lives. They don't have time to be bothered by another nationality....Cause really, nowadays that's just silly.

We're brought up surrounded by culture, and those ignorant to it are usually the ones who come out with racist slurs, ridiculous articles, and constant jokes until it's boring.

A few jibes about a 'taffy', a 'ginger', a 'yank', a 'limey'. It's a normal occurrence. Constant teasing, and directed insult with intention to hurt is racist. Banter is not.

In all honesty. I found this article ridiculous. If you wish to mock the welsh, then that's your (as a collective) prerogative. it is 'permitted bigotry' after all.

But here, today, i can honestly say. No ones takes these jibes seriously... People should get on with their lives and stop worrying about everyone elses. We have enough problems within our own lives and countries without having to bother to slander that 'taff' or that 'frog'.

In conclusion. No one cares what the other person is doing, unless it's something SERIOUS, like plotting war.

I cannot COMPREHEND why, for heavens sake, you are all so worked up over this article.

We're all egotistical, we all have an arsenal of jibes for the other country. At the end of the day, i'm left wondering, why you have the time to slander someone else...when you should be doing something better, like living your life.

Now please excuse me. I have an assignment due in that i need to work on.... maybe if i have time i'll go 'mock the welsh'.....dont see why i should though...All the welsh people i've met have been lovely. Same goes for everyone else i've met.