We must fight to preserve the Union

terence patrick hewett

The English, I am afraid find the kailyard about as interesting as a sackload of spanners. And so do I suspect, do the Scotch.

glen allan

I am 75 and in the late 40s I would spend a few weeks in the summer with my Scottish granny. On leaving one year she said good bye and told me that next year I would have to bring my own passport. She never forgave my father for living "down there".Scottish Nationalism is nothing new.

Bigbone

Who in their right mind would wish to be governed by the chumps in power at Westminster? Certainly not the English.

If Scotland became independent, it should never countenance EU membership. In fact, let's all become free. Scotland free from England, England free from the EU - in all but trade.

Johnny

"For a people who pride themselves on their cosmopolitan nature, it is incredible how little the English, especially in the south, know about what goes on in other parts of this archipelago. "

Wrong. The English know perfectly well the Scots are a separate nation and culture.What is incredible is how little the Scots know of the English, apart from their enduring prejudices about us.

I wish we had a Salmond to stick up for England, Alan. I have heard some Scots him in strong terms but the English attitude is that they quite like him and certainly won't stand in the way of independence of England and Scotland from each other.

Salmond's tactic of championing the reversion of union to that of the Union of Crowns 1603-1707 has not generally sunk in yet but is starting to do so. It has a good historical basis. It provides a reassuring half way house to clingers on to the Union and gets shot of the money angle. Maybe separation will stop there?

You have to face it,Alan, hardly anyone in England will oppose further separation.Far fewer than in Scotland. Most will support it for various reasons of only to end the whole bother of Union and get back to being England.The tide of history is against you.

John Corfield

Alex Salmond is the most consummate politcian in the UK today if anybody can do it he is the one to achieve his goal of Independence.
Good Luck to him on his quest and the Scottish people if they vote a majority for it.
Many of us in England just want a resolution to this question, so fatigued are we by the toxic racism both overt and covert shown and felt towards the English and the decades of whining about all things English.
I for one would like rid of Scotland if it wishes to split from the Union.
The dissolution of Czechoslovakia into the Czech Republic and Slovakia has been a success for both Country's so I feel it would be for us English and Scottish.
The sooner the better for us all if Independence is voted for then I would visit the country again, after many years but if I visited today I would feel like an illegal immigrant in Scotland feeling too uncomfortable to wish to holiday there at present.

John Lea

I'm not so sure the Scots want independence from England. I sense that people up here voted for the SNP because they were fed up with the Scottish Labour Party, who have mismanaged this nation at local level for generations. Living in Glasgow, I see the results of this every day. I would like to think that both countries can retain their distinctive national identities, yet remain together.

Keith Young

When the families of English servicemen based at Faslane have to be protected from abuse and physical attacks from the local bravehearts,which was not reported in the English press, it is time to call it a day on the union.

Rick

As an Englishman who believes that the Union's now more of a hindrance than a benefit, and that England would be more cofident as an independent state, I wish Mr Salmond good luck!

Patrick Harris

Not hoping for Mr Cochrane - fighting for.
May I ask if you are one of those afforded the advantage of a grant to see you through university.
If so, what do you say to English university students that end up with £20,000 millstones on graduation day?
That would make a far more interesting article than extolling the advantages of watching grown men play at soldering, in the pouring rain.

Noa Zrk

Independence should mean just that. With no Scots,(or possibly Welsh or Irish) politicians in Westminster and for example, none of those nationalities working in England without a work permit.

Gareth Young

Scotland can't "leave the Union", it can only end the Union.

What a delicious irony if the English beat them to the punch (RSBC and Bank of Scotland, now effectively English-owned, could be handed back to Scotland in return for a thousand-year lease on all MOD sites in Scotland).

DougtheDug

I would have thought that BBC Scotland would be very pleased that Alex Salmond wants Glasgow produced bulletins for the BBC as that would mean more money and work for BBC Scotland and it's wonderful that that arch-unionist and establishment man David Steel is being blamed for the, "Queen of Scots", title.
It's good to see that you still insist that the SNP's main aim in life is to cause "rows". It must be difficult for a man so obsessed with being on bended-knee to deal with a party that stands up for Scotland.
As you're Scottish editor of the Telegraph here's a little tip. There is no Scottish Labour Party and it has no Scottish Labour Leader. Wendy Alexander was the leader of the British Labour MSP's in the Scottish Parliament. She had no authority over any other British Labour Party member in Scotland whether activist, councillor or MP and it's the same for the current leader of the British Labour MSP's in the Scottish Parliament Iain Gray. The leader of the one and only British Labour Party is Gordon Brown.
As for Calman, it is a dog's breakfast. A minor transfer of traffic powers and the control of airguns to Scotland in return for charity law and bankruptcy practice and the registration of health professionals and the replacement of a block grant with a hellishly complicated system of assigned taxes for raising the same money the Scottish Parliament already gets under Barnett. It will never be implemented and its only contribution to independence is that Scots now now it's either the status quo or independence as devolution has reached a dead end.
The biggest moaners in Scotland are always the unionists so I'd be happy to provide all the brickbats necessary.

Stephen Gash

So, a Scot says we must fight to save the Union.

This must be to ensure that Scots, known as Macakeneatits, continue to live off English largesse while ensuring England always has lower spending per capita than the rest of the UK.

There is no good reason for England to remain in the UK. If England achieved independence today it would be 302 years 3 months and 5 days too late

Dirty Euro

I have gone off the union. It does not work. Look at a map of the UK the further you get away from London the poorer it is by region. Scotland is only wealthy because of oil when we lose that we will be put back to being periphery nobodies, who the london civil service will treat like a colony. It does not work anymore. I am sorry but we would be better off making our own choices.

Dirty Euro

We were lied to in the late 70s, by the civil service who claimed we were subsidised by England when we were not. Why should we ever trust london again. I give in. I do not support the union anymore. It is better to go now when there are a few scots at the top who would ensure we did not get done over.
We are the ones who get treated like a colony for our resources it is tough fact but it is true. Even the north of england is treated like rubbish by the south.

Dirty Euro

I will not fight to preserve southern English people getting wealthier and exploiting the resources of the rest of the uk. Everything in the UK is for the South of England. It is the Southern English empire. .

Jason

This article is entitled "We Must Fight To Preserve the Union", and yet it doesn't give any reasons why. All it tells us that the Union is under threat. It doesn't give readers any reason why we should fight to preserve it. And this buisness about "breaking down the English regions" is total obfuscation. England is not a collection of regions, England is one country like Scotland. What happens when you break down the Scottish regions? England never voted to be dissected.

Terry

The union is over. Labour's half baked devolutionary settlement started the rot. Now England is asking "what's in it for us?" and the answer is "nothing".

We need English independence, or if we can't have that, we'll settle for Scottish Independence (just give England a say in the matter to ensure it goes through) as a start!

Junius

No - let's not save the union Alan.

Let's all go our separate ways, you Scots raise the taxes you spend, and we English can spend the taxes we raise.

English Republic

"There are forces, both active and passive, on both sides of the border that are undermining it and Unionists, of the Scottish and English variety, must work harder to preserve it."
You could start by telling me what benefit this unequel union gives me instead of 4 pages of waffle. The answer is of course that there is nothing in this union for the English people, only hassle, second class status and a hefty bill to keep the neighbours happy. Independence now!

John Butler

As an Englishman I wish we had a politician like Alex Salmond to stand up for us.
The union is holed below the waterline as a result of labour's botched devolution settlement.
I'm a little embarrassed by people who call them Scotch and imply they don't pay taxes, they live in an oil rich country but keep getting told they're scrounging from our table, no wonder they ( apart from the author) seem to want to leave.
England's been sacrificed for Gordon Brown's Britishness project. I hope the Scots get their independence, genuinely wish them well, and as a side effect, we get our country back.

The Young Oligarch

What a load of whining , anti-patriotic drivel some of these comments are ?

This is the very existence of the greatest country in the world we're talking about and what do we get ?
"Thieving Jocks" ,"Persecution" and a lot of "Me ,Me ,Me" !

Our ancestors must be so proud .

Oh , and Brussels will love it .

Home Rule for England

Are the needs of the north of Scotland the same as those of Edinburgh? Why not have a North Scotland European Region? Call it Highlands and Islands. Why should Scotland be considered a nation with its own Parliament which enables Alex Salmond to argue for independence while we English are represented by the member for Kirkaldy and Cowdenbeath?
Its not just about money Alan. We English are fed up with being the country that dare not speak its name! Listen to any House of Commons broadcast on domestic matters. The MPs will inevitably be talking about English matters, because Scottish Welsh and N.Irish is devolved. Will they say England? No! All the parties say 'education is this country, the NHS in this country' etc. etc.
We English want out of this Union!

Terry

The Young Oligarch said..."What a load of whining , anti-patriotic drivel some of these comments are ?"

Out of intellectual argument already Mr Oligarch?

and...

"Thieving Jocks" ,"Persecution" and a lot of "Me ,Me ,Me" !

er, no. No one has said "thieving Jocks", no one has said "persecution" and you are the only one to say "me, me, me". Why don't you read the comments before jumping to conclusions?

You might begin again by stating exactly what England gets from this so called "United" Kingdom.

The Preston Park Panther

Hm. A Scotch socialist government which has effectively bankrupted (and possibly crippled) England. Scotch banks (what do you think the 'S' stands for in RBS and Lloyds HBOS)that attempted to destroy the financial system. Everyone in England should vote Scottish Nationalist.

John Lea

This whole Scotland v England debate is silly. I know Geordies who (culturally and politically) have more in common with Scots than they do with their fellow countrymen in London. I also have to say that many English people on this thread do themselves no credit by talking in such a derogatory fashion about other nations and asserting their own country's superiority with all the arrogance of little Englanders. Noa Zrk - hiding (typical of many cowards on this site) behind a stupid name - is one such example.

Home Rule for England

English Republic.
'Waffle' is what most journos write. They just regurgitate the same old stuff without adding to 'the debate' . In fact there is no debate over the future of the Union in the press. Merely articles containing unsubstantiated sweeping assertions such as 'we are all better off in the Union'.

Home Rule for England

John Lea "this whole Scotland v England debate is silly".
Really? Who started it? Many English accepted the Union with Scotland.
However the Scottish have always said how they are subjugated by the English and how they wanted their independence. They voted for their own Scottish Parliament in 1998 and voted for an SNP Government in 2007.
Now there bluff is being called. We English are questioning the Union and saying OK let's call it a day and the Scottish (or a considerable number of them) don't like it.
Well the damage is done. The Genie is out of the bottle and the Union is doomed. Let's put it out of its misery.
Vote SNP Set England Free!
This constant sniding at England saying we are divided nation etc. with nonsense such as the Geordies feeling more attachment to Scotland than England won't work.
Despite the best efforts of people like Brown, England still has a strong sense of national identity. Its Scotland that has identity problems!
For example, the Shetlanders feel more culturally attached to Norway than Scotland and might well join them on independence!
Catholics v Protestants (Celtic v Rangers)!
Highlanders and Lowlanders etc. etc.
Scotland has very shaky foundations!It will be very interesting to see what happens after independence. Scotland could well disintegrate.

Terry

John Lea, this debate is not about Scotland v England, it is Scotland v Britain and England v Britain.

I’m not sure about your argument regarding Geordies who (culturally and politically) have more in common with Scots than they do with their fellow countrymen in London.” . Which “Scots” are you talking about? The Western Isles and the Highlands are Celtic in language and culture, and are quite distinct from the regions of the Central Belt and the Lowlands. I’d say Edinburgh has more in common with London, than it does with Skye or Lewis, but less so with the North East of England. So what?

This is missing the point somewhat because devolution has happened and the Scots see themselves as a single nation with a national Government. That process needs to be completed by ASKING the forth nation of the UK, if they would like constitutional equality with the other nations of the UK. To deny them is to put an intolerable pressure on the Union and the longer it goes on, the less people in England will care for the Union.

Those that want this process to be completed don’t hate the Scots or anyone else, they would just like to be treated equally. BTW, the most derogatory statement I’ve seen on this board is “arrogance of little Englanders”.

John Thomas

Celtic nationalism might have meant something in the past, but as we're now all ruled by Brussels/Strasbourg, it means nothing at all. No doubt lots of people, Alex Salmond, and English politicans, are making use of the "independence" delusion.

Fearless Frank

@ Dirty Euro
August 6th, 2009 11:47pm

As a South of England imperial swine, I look forward to visiting our Celtic possessions while we can still do so without a passport. I suppose I'd better take some precautions against uppity natives - what would you suggest, Dirty Euro? And while you're about it, could you tell me where I can engage a porridge-whalla - I do like to toy with going native when I visit the colonies.

My journey will, of course, take me through our own ravaged provinces - I look forward to seeing if they cope as bravely as do your plucky tartan-clad natives with the rapacious taxmen sent out by we southern oppressors to pillage every hovel, slum, croft and bothie for every last pathetic mite we can pluck from your half-starved orphaned hordes.

Is it true that Londoners are still allowed to own slaves in Dumfries? I do hope so!

Fantasy over, I grew up (in the 50s, in the south east) with the idea that the United Kingdom - all of it from John O'Groats to Lands End (and Ulster) - was our land: all it it, all of us. And the fact that the different regions and countries all had their own identity didn't get in the way of this at all.
Naive, wasn't I!

John Lea

Home Rule For England: yet another blog by someone so brave and passionate that they hide their true identity behind a silly title. Also, as a proud Englishman, you should learn to write grammatically, you illiterate halfwit!

Terry writes: 'the Scots see themselves as a single nation'. Really? You know that, do you? You've actually spoken to a wide range of Scots, have you? I thought not.

Stephen Gash

@ John Lea
Scots delude themselves that Northumberlanders have more in common with Scots than with other English people, but I can assure you, that is not the case.

Having witnessed the hostility towards the English by Scottish visitors to Berwick Upon Tweed there is little love lost between people in the north of England and Scots.

This is why the north of England was split in two by Scots-led Labour. A north of England region would have exposed and reinforced the real north-south divide, Scotland v England.

The people in the north, and I live in Carlisle, have rejected the regional carve-up of England, as have the rest of English people.

We are not going to stand by and watch our country disappear for the sake of the Union, only to watch Scots then walk away.

Scots hate the English which is why an English girl living in Scotland was told to pay top-up fees recently and why English people are constantly beaten up and verbally abused in Scotland.

A Scot talking about 'Little Englanders' and their 'arrogance' is contemptible. Perhaps you'd like to remind us ad nauseum how the Scots invented everything, ran the empire and run the country! It's all gone as nose-thumblingly silent from the Macakeneatits as it has gone horribly wrong in the British economy.

When I hear a Scottish politician stand up and say the English are getting a raw deal from the Union and it needs redressing, I may take Scots seriously. Instead, all we hear is why Scotland needs more money and - of course - 'it's oor oil'.

In God's name go!

Big Alec

The Scots, Irish and Welsh all hate the English. they can't all be wrong.

John Lea

Home Rule For England: yet another brave, passionate blogger who chooses to hide behind a daft pseudoynm. All I will say in response to your blog is: learn to spell and use grammatical English before vomiting your badly constructed sentences and general ignorance over the rest of us.

Terry writes: 'Scots see themselves as a single nation'. You know that, do you? You've spoken to a wide range of Scots (different locations/age ranges) and your proclamations are based on empirical data? I thought not.

Those people on this thread who hide behind idiotic pseudoynms yet proclaim that England would be better off without those bitter Scots, should remember that the Scots (along with the English, Irish and Welsh) fought pasionately and sacraficed their lives for the integrity of this country (the UK) in two world wars, and do so even now in Afghanistan. Many of these men gave their lives, while people like 'Home Rule' and Stephen Gash (was a blogger ever more appropriately named than he) can only make snide remarks and pat themselves on the back for doing so and thinking themselves smart. Truly pathetic.

John Lea

Stephen Gash: 'Scots hate the English which is why an English girl living in Scotland was told to pay top-up fees recently and why English people are constantly beaten up and verbally abused in Scotland.'

Even by your moronic standards, that is laughable. Yes, yes, it's true, I spend all my waking hours beating up anyone with an English accent.

Stephen Lawrence was (allegedly) killed by a bunch of white Essex boys. Let me see, using your 'logic', that leads me to believe that all Southerners are racist murderers who go around abusing minorities.

Stuart

Dear John Lea,

When living in Aberdeen I was told in all seriousness not to be on the streets when the film Braveheart kicked out because the great unwashed fired up by this pathetic and totally untrue film would be hunting for the English. Just one of the unpleasant incidents I experienced whilst I was there. The dire fate of English children enrolled in Scotch schools was also well known.

I held am SNIP card the whole time there and was hoping to be around to vote for Scotch independence but have since moved back to civilisation.

Begone and soon.

Terry

John Lea opined “Terry writes: 'Scots see themselves as a single nation'. You know that, do you? You've spoken to a wide range of Scots (different locations/age ranges) and your proclamations are based on empirical data? I thought not.”

John, I’ve not spoken to any more Scots than you’ve spoken to Geordies, but unlike your supposition, my proposition IS actually based upon empirical data. There are many examples, but this one by the British Social Attitudes Report 2008 is UK Government sponsored and considered to be both recent and reputable… http://www.scottishbroadcastingcommission.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/4/0000404.pdf

As you can see it is published by the Govt and reproduced by the SBC (why doesn’t the BBC have an EBC?). To save you the time looking it up “73% of Scots describe themselves as only or mainly Scottish”. I’d say that “Scots see themselves as a single nation”, is a fair statement in light of this independent empirical data, wouldn’t you? Or do you need more empirical evidence?

BTW you didn’t respond to my other statements, so I assume you now agree with them.

DG

This comments section is bound to be overun by Nationalists as they all email each other or subscribe to RSS feeds with content searches for anything that mentions Scottish Independence.

Those of us who remain British and wish to keep the Union will be drowned out by the vocal minority.

Generalissimo Hernandez

"We must fight to preserve the Union"

Why?

Terry

DG said this board is ”…bound to be overun by Nationalists as they all email each other or subscribe to RSS feeds with content searches”…and therefore ”...[we] will be drowned out by the vocal minority.”

Do you have any other conspiracy theories that you’d like to share DG?

For the record, I don’t have the time to email 59% of the English population that’d like to see an independent Scotland, or the 68% who’d like to see an English Parliament. see here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535193/Britain-wants-UK-break-up-poll-shows.html. (Dontcha love empirical data JL?)

Maybe you’re the vocal minority and we’re the recently not-so-silent majority, huh DG?

Home Rule for England

John Lea the word is sacrificed not sacraficed! I suggest it is you who needs to learn to spell!
I am not hiding behind the name Home Rule for England. I use it because it shows in one glance that I want an independent England out of the 'well past its sell by date' Union.

Home Rule for England

Oh dear Mr Lea. I've just spotted another one!There are two ss's in passionately! Tut tut!

Ken Stevens

"wants to do away with London-produced UK network news programmes ...so as to give a ‘Scottish perspective’ on the news, whatever that is."

Probably the same 'whatever that is' as necessitates a specifically designated Scottish Editor of the Daily Telegraph.

I'm a Unionist by upbringing & inclination and a reluctant but confirmed English Parliamentarian by force of circumstance. Scrap nation-based devolution or proceed to federation or independence. The present situation is untenable.

...and btw I perhaps comprehend a little more about Scotland than yer average Anglo, being married to a darling Scotch bird for 40 years.

Julio

England needs it's own parliament. It's ridiculous that England, one of the dominant cultures of the last millenium is denied this - and by an unelected Scotch Prime Minister.

http://anglofuture.blogspot.com

rhys burriss

The fact is that a recent, democratically elected, First Minister of Scotland ( not even an SNP person) thought it was big to state that, once Scotland was defeated, he would support any team in the world against England.
In the face of that kind of gratuitous unpleasantness and rejection of any idea of good neighbourliness towards the English what are we supposed to do? Carry on kow-towing in the hope that one day the Scots will start 'liking' us ? Independence Now ! The sooner the better. [A return to the Union of Crowns is a good idea. Even better - England can become a Republic and they can keep Charles all to themselves.]

jon livesey

It's worth considering a bit of history here. No English King ever wanted Scotland for itself. Not Edward I, not Edward III, not even George I.

The only reason English Kings ever wanted to keep Scotland under control was that Scotland was the back door into England.

Every King who went campaigning in Europe had to watch his back carefully in case the French sent an Army into Scotland. And in fact, every time an English King imposed a settlement on the incompetent French Kings, it contained a French promise to leave Scotland alone.

And the same is true today. An independent Scotland is a puff of smoke. Let the Scots have a taste of raising their own taxes and they will be delighted to rent us as many bases in Scotland as we wish to have. They will bust a gut to entice English tourists to their picturesque wastes.

The real issue, just as in the Middle Ages, will be what mischief the sly continentals can make of an independent Scotland, and how we deal with that.

Dwight Vandryver

In the not too distant future, England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland will simply be separate administrative regions of the European Union. The House of Commons will serve no purpose except as an English Parliament that defers to Brussels. The House of Lords will be disbanded, and the Queen as head of state will be an anachronism.
Since the three main parties are all in favour of further integration with the EU (although they may argue over the detail), the Union will fade into an historical curiosity.

CH

We'll all be the poorer for the break up of the Union, but it's just a matter of time since Blair created England as a second class state within the Union. It will be a shame, but the status quo of the larger nation playing second fiddle politically will eventually boil over.

John Lea

Terry: of course the majority of Scots see themselves as Scots first. That is not the same as wanting independence from the rest of the UK. The question asked wasn't 'Do you wish to be an independent nation?' There is a fundamental difference between devolution and independence.

Home Rule For England: two quick points: typos are not the same as being unable to construct a grammatical sentence. The former are the result of exigency, the latter of ignorance. Go back and look at your original email, then come back when you can write a coherent sentence without the help of your special needs tutor. Second point: other people - with equally passionate views on this subject - do not hide behind daft pseudonyms. Grow up and give your name if you want to be taken seriously in any adult debate! At present you are akin to a dirty phone caller, who is happy to make sneering remarks yet hides pathetically behind his anonymity. What a brave man you are!

Rob Roy

John Lea
August 8th, 2009 10:20am

"...do not hide behind daft pseudonyms. Grow up and give your name if you want to be taken seriously..."

So who are you, John Lea?

Should we know you?

Ed Abrams

Who gives a damm about the UNION, a union is supposed to be EQUAL and we English are treated a second class in this supposed great UNION. For many years England has had no voice but now thankfully we English are waking up and demanding change, it will not be long before folk are asked to choose at the ballot box
English or British
I know what I will choose.
The big 3 spout outdated and old policies, none of them care for the good people of England and thankfully there is a movement afoot in England that defends the English people, that movement is the English Democrats, albeit small but a growing political movement that has already changed the face of English politics forever

Kieran Marchant

What a load of rubbish. The English know nothing of what goes on in these islands, I think you must have been cut off up there for far too long.

Personally, I wish Mr Salmond and the SNP all the very best (as well, of course to their counterparts in Wales).

I think it is about time that we were all free from this outdated Union. Maybe then we could claim back some sense of self.
If we do not England will soon not exist to be replaced by EU regions.

Do you believe that if we break up the Union the walls will come tumbling down? The people of these islands will still be bretherin. We will still be the biggest trading partners of each other.

Full Devoloution should be welcomed not feared.

bobbyboy

It's a shame that some people here just want to slag others off. It makes me realise that for most of my life in London this has been the case. Go into a pub and within a couple of hours the Scots, Welsh or Irish will start moaning about how bad the English are. The English most of the time walk away and forget it. I was once a believer in the Union, I am now 60 and have been worn down by this childishness. It is absolutely clear that the Union is dead and for my part the sooner it happens the better. I am English and 100% sure that my country will do well without having to listen to these whiners.
You are a bunch of hate preachers and the sooner we get this sorry mess sorted out the better. To the nice Scottish people, I hope my remarks don't offend you. They are directed purely at the hat preaching, miserable whiners.
To the Grammarians, if you don't like the way I write then up yours.

Dave

Simple solution. Gives us all - English, Scots, Welsh and NI - a vote on whether we want to keep the union or go our own ways. The majority wins and the issue closes for a generation. Or are our politicians frightened of democracy? Wait a minute...

Jon Lee

"So who are you, John Lea?
Should we know you?"

Good point, it could lead to confsuion!

Terry

John L, I didn't say that Scots wanted independence. I said they see themselves as a single nation.

Multiple nations can exist within a single state (like the UK so far) or multiple states within a single nation (like the US).

It doesn't mean that each nation no longer sees itself as being "a single nation".

Having said that, there is evidence to suggest that the majority of English would like to see Scotland independendant, although Scots themselves are more reluctant.

Roger Mortimer-Smith

Wake up guys. Without Scottish votes, Labour would only have won a single election since 1945. I don't imagine Salmond has England's well being in mind when he calls for full independence, but this may be a win-win situation (then again, Scotland may find the benefits lifestyle less attractive without English taxes to pay for it).

Terry

Roger, I agree with your analysis regarding English taxes having to underwrite the Scottish benefit culture, dependence upon public sector jobs and their disastrous foray in banking, but labour would have would still have won every election in England since 1997, including the 2005 one. See http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/area/uk/ge05/seats.htm

Someone is bound to say “what about the oil” or refer to the McCrone Report. If we were to agree that Scotland has been a net contributor to the UK purse (it’s extremely doubtful and the bank bailout wipes out any uncertainty) since the 1970s, what about the first 270 years?

As I have said all along, what is in the Union for England? Nowt as far as I can see.

Home Rule for England

The Tory's 'answer' is localism in England (although they never say England)
Of course, when local decision making in the English NHS results in the post code lottery, MPs like Tory Grant Shapps don't like it.

A. MacAulay

Pity this debate is so rancourous. It does nothing for quality. So let's all keep it in mind that Scotland and England are neighbours and will be so, as far as forever goes.

It must be accepted that the convergance of the 2 nations, as wished for in 1707, has taken place to an aston1shing degree. There really is a "British" pars pro toto culture which can not only be found on our islands, but in degrees, worldwide. Nonetheless, neither Scotland nor England have disappeared as cultural entities.

The Union of the Crowns and then Parliaments made possible the astonishing and spectacular achievements of the British Empire and just as those horizons have closed, the entrepreneurial vitality and idealism that found its chance there has withered. In other words the union of Scotland and England has lost the wider context that made it possible.

Where Westminster may be blameworthy is in not seeking a new, visionary ideal for "Britain's" future, and leaving the monarchy alone as factor of continuity. Sad but hardly surprising when one sees the low quality of our pols who only work for positions within a status quo and not for an ideal, as exemplified by Alex Salmond.

No, Great Britain was truly great, but now is time to think about what comes after it.

David Lindsay

It is the public ownership (which is, of course, the British ownership) of key industries that could again, as once it did, bind together the Union by creating communities of interest across the several parts of the United Kingdom, often in the form of companies with the word “British” in their names.

When it comes to weakening either national self-government or the Union, some things have done as much damage as the destruction of the nationalised industries. But nothing has done more.

The controlling public stake in the Bank of Scotland (as also in RBS) is now a non-negotiable safeguard of the Union. As public ownership always is, in fact.

Terry

The bailout of HBOS wasn't much of a "safeguard of the Union".

A No. 10 spokesman was asked at the daily press briefing (Sep 08) if Brown had urged the bank to “minimise job losses in Scotland?” the spokesman said: "Absolutely not. …The prime minister did not lobby on issues of jobs relating to any part of the UK”

However, Brown popped up on Radio 5 Live and said that he “had made his concern about the future of HBOS's iconic Edinburgh HQ 'very clear' to Lloyds TSB bosses… and said its 'management focus' would be on saving as many staff as possible north of the border.”

Darling, also lobbied hard for England and Wales to take the brunt of any job losses, as he told Radio 5 Live: “'HBOS and the new group will continue to have a very significant presence in Scotland.”

Why else did the clause on page one of the formal takeover document promises that "the management focus is to keep jobs in Scotland"?

There is no similar reassurance about jobs in England and Wales.

As Brown said in a Scottish Daily Record article, his government, ‘has never stopped focusing on delivering for the Scottish people’.

Yeah, we’ve noticed. There’s nothing in this Union for English workers, just ask the ship builders in Devonport and Tyneside.

Safeguard of the Union? Ha!

Justin Miller

I find this all extremely depressing. I was born and raised in England, but my mother is Welsh and my father Scots-English. I have never, never understood this puerile tribalism between the constituent countries (ambitiously called) of Britain. Britain was built by the hard work of remarkable Welsh, Scots and Englishman. Our combined talents built an Empire that dominated a fifth of the world's land surface and crafted a modern nation which remains one of international influence. I don't understand why people honestly cleave to such facile notions of Englishness or Scottishness. To my mind you may well as talk jingoistically about being Salopian or Northumbrian or Lothian. We are British. I would be astonished if there was anyone left in this country whose family has been here more than four or five generations who does not have a mix of English, Welsh and Scottish ancestry. The bizarre ill-will between some people is leading towards the fracture of something that was Great. It would be a shame if the Union was to perish under the snide self-interest of myopic nationalists.

russell morrison

PRESTON PARK PANTHER
Dear Oh Dear....life is SO simple for you, isn't it my little meerkat?
If the S in RBS and HBOS is intended to suggest that Scots are somehow or other PARTICULARLY to clame for the banking crisis, does that mean that the good citizens of Halifax, Cheltenham, Gloucester etc are also either complicit/blame -free/bemused depending on point of view as well.
You really DO need to stop and think a little faster than you can type..."Seemples...(squeak)"

Ken

Reading the seething anti English hatred of such article makes me as an Englishman glad of the rise of the SNP and the coming break up. The English, as usual never consulted, do not want any Union; bring on the day when we can be rid of Scotland.

Cpt Combustable

I for one would be quite happy for the Scotts to reclaim their countryman, our prime minister. They should have him all to themselves...and we should have an English prime minister. Seriously, can you imagine the Scotts settling for an Englishman as their leader? Of course not, they are far too sensible and that would clearly be silly. Well, I guess both sides of the border can at least agree on that.

Chris

Yes The English have tolerated The Racism from the Scottih led Labour party for too long, waiting for the develution to be balanced out and made fair as Brown often mentions, but no... it is not a choice anymore of waiting for our own parliament but firmly driving a wedge between England and Scotland that is iireversable, this is well underway.

Noa Zrk

John Lea.
What an objectionable and gratuitously insulting twerp you patently are! Rather than logic this obviously forms the basis for an argument for you. A Sauciehall Street drunk displays similar levels of reason, and comprehensibility, in debate. To make it understandable for you, my point was that independence has consequences; why should Scots have automatic rights to work or residence permits in England? We'll naturally give preference to English people and re-build Hadrian's Wall to keep you in your place. Oh, and the Scots can learn to pay their own way and of the consequences of biting the hands that have fed them. By the way I'll call myself whatever I want in my own country, but I do look forward to the day when you can practice the feast of insults in the McSpectator. Plonker! the you'll preferential r ; the has So the basiI've just picked u