Unfair sex

David Watkins

Sir,

Luke Copper has managed to miss the main point, which is not that for transsexuals to compete as sportswomen is unfair to some natural women, who may have dedicared years to preparing for a contest - though it obviously is - but that it's unfair to all of us who value freedom of speech. Orwell's Winston Smith defined freedom as being able to say that one and one make two. If we are now to be forbidden to say that a man whose body has been surgically and chemically modified to resemble, superficially, a woman's body, is not, and never will be, a real woman, can we any more call ourselves free men and women? I think not!

LibertarianLou

David Watkins you're obviously free to say it since you just have...

Sara

Just in case anyone misses it, here's an extremely relevant quote from page 3:

"Any athletic advantages a transgender girl or woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissapate after about one year of oestrogen therapy."

The concern about trans women competing alongside cis women is unfair advantage. The science says that advantage vanishes. What is the problem?

Erin

I'm a trans woman just like Lawless. I think I transitioned a few years earlier, but I can definitely say that after only three months on hormones, I had become physically not only weaker than all my male friends, but the majority of my female friends as well (I had been pretty weak for a guy, and I am now pretty weak for a girl). I don't think there's much of an advantage at all, if any. I will also make note of the fact that burly girls who aren't on hormones/testosterone blockers and have testes will of course always be more suitable competing as guys. But the vast majority of us aren't like that.

Sarah

I'm transsexual, I don't do anything physically competitive (I race radio controlled cars - badly!), and I was never all that strong, but after a few months on hormones, I had to get used to not being as strong as I had been. It's only the people who get beat who will cry foul though. If transsexual athletes finished at the bottom of the pile, it would be a non-issue, but because some have done well, it's a major threat.

Sport is not just about the act itself, but the preparation put into it, and someone trans who's been on hormones for the required time that the relevant sports bodies require, will be of the same physical fitness and strength that they would have been if they had been born the way they now present.

Grace

I'm trans and I have nowhere near the muscle mass or body strength as before transition, a decade ago. In fact I would have to say I am way slower because although I may have slightly heavier bone structure, but less muscle to move it with, I am at a decided disadvantage.
I have a naturally curvy body, wide pelvis, and small frame. People of both sexes have natural variations of individuals of far greater prowess than I. So exactly how does my trans status supposedly give me a 'competitive edge'?

This is why I don't do sports - because no matter how good I was or how hard I trained any success would just be because I had some kind of imagined "unfair advantage". Which is garbage. I have the same hormone levels as any cis woman and the same fat distribution, and would have to work just as hard or harder to get the same results, which pretty much any post-trans women have. And this is a fact clearly recognised by the medical profession, if not the unwashed and hyperventilating masses.

David Watkins

Sara: The passage that you quote was introduced by Luke Copper with the words: "a report recently published in America this month stated that...". Who were the authors of this report? How have their findings thus far been received by the scientific community. Luke Copper hasn't told us. So, all in all, hardly grounds for claiming "The science says..." Even if it were, what "The science says" is constantly changing. Not very long ago the science said that women with XY chromosomes were men - the science had to change when some women classified as men for this reason subsequently gave birth to healthy children.

Is it equally true that women who want to be men, and who've had themselves pumped up with testosterone, should be able to compete in sports on equal terms with natural men? If not, why not? Has this ever been attempted?

I don't despise transexuals. It's obvious that anyone unhappy and desperate enough to do what they've done needs no further punishment from society. Leave them alone to follow their dream, I say - but they should leave us alone.

Debbie Wood

David... I just wondered... in what way are transsexuals 'not leaving you alone. Are you saying, as you appear to be that they should not be allowed to get on with their lives like anyone else. I can see both sides of the argument - but you seem more upset about transsexuals than you would have us believe?

JamesG

Sometimes "what if?" thinking helps to clarify.

What if Roger Federer decided two or three years from now that he's no longer consistently winning big matches and that he stands a better chance if he were to submit to sex-change surgery and hormone treatment to "become" a woman.

How would the then leading female players feel about the prospect of competing against "her"?

Debbie Wood

Mmmmmmmmmm

Well James I'd say;

1. By the time his muscles had atrophied he'd be no stronger than either of the Venus sisters.
2. His grounds for re-assignment would not be acceptable to even a mad psychiatrist and would possibly result in poor old Roger being sectioned.

Post Op

I am a post op transsexual, and my strength is approximately 30 % of that which I had as a male, I struggle to remove the lid off a pickle jar, even carrying my pumpkin for halloween was a struggle. This from a girl who used to bodybuild, I have now lost approximately 60% of my muscle mass, which pleses me.

A transsexual woman loses her strength advantage once on hormones for 6 months to a year (it differs from individual to individual).

I just wish these myths that transsexual women have an advantage in women's sport. I'll give you an example, last year great Britain tennis player Nicola Smith beat a transsexual lady called Andrea Paredes 6-0 6-0 in a futures event, so Andrea had a huge advantage (not).

Reina

I'm transgender - male to female, still on the final steps of the transition, and although I'm still some time away from hormone treatments I've come to terms with the sacrifices I'll be making - not being able to be a parent, a loss in muscle mass, adapting to many changes.
I already know that I'm going to be at a major disadvantage in terms of physical strength but then I've never been all that strong physically, mentally I've got a strong mind and a strong intellect, but physically I'm pretty weak and I'm only physically strong when my temper flares up.

Someone who's TG and has a sports career has a major disadvantage and it takes a lot of body building to get just enough strength as well as a lot of exercise, while it can be hard work for them it's clear that they want to be able to do something they enjoy - play sports - and shouldn't be looked down upon for making what is a very personal and hard step in life.

The whiners shouldn't complain, they're getting real competition and should be happy with something to work towards instead of whining and complaining about so-called 'advantages'.
Someone's who's TG and undergoing or has undergone what's required has no advantages, they have to make extra effort and work harder towards having such advantages if they want those.