Our lazy firemen must make a radical change

David Short

Wonder how many fire stations McKinstry visited before giving us his plans for the service from his comfy position in front of a screen?

All this seems based on is one incident witnessed down in France, the home of the flexible worker!

Wonder if the lads will find out McKinstry's home address and make sure they get to it rather more slowly than usual in the event of fire?

Ray

Whilst I'm no fan of the FBU, it should be remembered that modern firefighting is actually about far more than just pointing hoses at fires.

Amongst other varied tasks, modern firefighters are expected to cut drivers from their cars after accidents, pump out flooded streets and rescue the residents, control pollution hazards after chemical spillages, and train themselves to deal with chemical, biological and nuclear attacks.

On top of that, there continues the important, if humdrum work of inspecting premises for fire safety breaches and visiting schools and community groups to promote the fire safety message.

Indeed, anyone who has ever requested the presence of a fire engine and its crew as an attraction at a school fete will know only too well that both will often disappear at a moment's notice if an emergency call goes out.

So, by all means, why not train our firefighters in basic first aid. However, let's not kid ourselves that they pass their entire day at the station twiddling their thumbs and watching "Strictly Come Dancing"!

Alistair Kerr

There is an important difference: the French Sapeurs-Pompiers are organized, supervised and trained by the Ministry of the Interior; they fall under the Civil Defence and Security Directorate. Their ethos is military and professional. Sapeur means "sapper" and refers to the first official corps created by Napoleon I; it was a military engineer corps. The Paris SPs are still part of the Army; in Marseilles their homologues are part of the Navy. Military training and discipline, esprit de corps and a 'can do' spirit may be the reason why they are better and more versatile.

Bickers

The article points to workload differences between the ambulance and fire service in terms of call-outs.
That alone shouts out that we need an independant review of the fire services. After all it's tax payers money that's is potentially being poorly spent in the fire service and we have the right to call the fire service to account and to modernise if necessary.
The fact that the FBU avoid any challenge to their members working practices gives the game away

I.L.Ford

maybe the idiot who wrote this article should look at this!!!
and then go and actually find out what the frs do!!
http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/boltonnews/3222463.Family_talk_of_anguish_over_critically_injured_firefighter/

Jock Kent

written by someone who knows very little about the shambles that is the modern fire service

ChrisW

Oh dear it would seem that when in France Leo McKinstry imbibed rather too much of the local tipple. Hopefully this won't lead to him needing the assistance of any of the U.K's emergency services given the dismal picture of gross inefficiency he paints...

It is a shame that he didn't take the time to actually research his article before launching his misleading and wholly inaccurate diatribe. Whilst he may hold the view that the Fire (and Rescue)Service is still in dire need of "modernisation" every one of the assertions made in the article have little basis in fact and can easily be challenged.

Good God! He doesn't even know that London Fire Brigade is run by a Conservative led Authority since Boris Johnson's election victory.

Still, if he cares to come down from his ivory tower and join the fire service for a day the invitation is there.

Pikester

It just goes to show how stupid Leo McKinstry is !. The Ambulance Service is at rock bottom, no funding, no moral, no leadership. Yet you want to see Firefighters turn up at your door rather than a professional Paramedic. Why not use some sence and print an article that fights for a properly funded ambulance service where the money is put to the front line, rather than to the managers. But dont worry Mckinstry, in a few years you'll have the same amount of Fire Appliances as there is Ambulances. And you can submitt another crap article on why a Co-Responder turned up to fight a fire in a house which could involve a loss of life, because the other crews were picking up Mrs Braidey miserable old lady (Viz). I would like to have you on my station for a shift, lets see how well you fair doing a manual job, rather than being a keyboard warrior.

Hysteria

Ok - there could be improvements to be made - what organisaiton claims to be perfect?

But frankly an article with loads of fire statistics is something out of the Gordon Brown Tractor Production school of management - as pointed out by others - traffic accidents? flood damage? the list goes on. I am no lover of hide-bound unionised working environments - but this article does not do the issue, not I suspect the Fire Brigades, justice.

And in terms of a UK force - haven't we kind of agreed that local solutions/small government is the way forward - greater centralisation is surely not the answer.

Martyn

I am most disappointed with this article the author has obviously no experience of a modern fire and rescue service. I suggest he gets of his backside and visit a fire station to find out what happens.

There are a few fire and rescue services that do coresponding with their local ambulance service.

He is more than welcome to contact me and I will host him for a day.

Martin

What a load of garbage...Firefighters undergo a range of duties, not just firefighting...Think of car crashes Leo....Also, they have beds because the night shift is 16 hours long...Lazy journalism at its worse...I really am suprised that this guy gets paid for writinfg this rubbish.

andy jackson

straightaway leo couldn't even get it right were firefighters and not firemen. yes thats right women do the job.

as for more employed in the fire service. yes how true but not firefighters. the support staff have gone up. every brigade now has a fat HR department (maybe they could go to the ambo calls).

you probably moan that you cant get a police officer when you need one and the waits to long at the hospital to see a doctor. do you really want your wait for your house fire to be the same?

how about getting the printers to do the journalist bit and do away with a few journo's. i'm quite sure that they could do the job and maybe even better.

Ged

Totally one-sided view after witnessing one incident. The working day and night of a firefighter is fully accounted for even during quieter periods. After they check the appliances and all equipment are fit for purpose (required under Health and Safety), carry out vital training on different types of incidents (RTCs, Hazardous Substances, line rescue, large scale decontamination, water incidents, ladder training and all the PC policies they have to adhere to - did I mention training in dealing with fires), they now carry out Home Fire Risk Assessment which has helped reduce serious fires in the home. No one can deny that the ambulance and police service receive more calls but do you want a firefighters skill diluted by having to train to the standard of a paramedic and keep up these skills.
It sounds like Mr McKinstry would like the firefighters to cover for the short falls in government spending on the NHS.

Simon

This piece has not been written objectively, it has been written by a very nasty person, who is very ill informed if informed at all!
No mention of if Firefighters were to go out to medical emergencies, what would all the redundant paramedics do?
Would the Firefighters get the adequate training to co-respond and not just a 4 day first aid course like anybody in industry gets?
UK Firefighters work 15 hour night shifts with no shift allowance or unsocial working pay for weekends, so the reason for the beds they work 8 hours, and can rest if not out on calls.
The arguement about the army cover during the pay dispute is also inaccurate and falls down flat when you had John Ransford and Nick Raynsford openly admitting on national TV that there were double the amount of soldiers available for each shift that there would usually be firefighters and they were only actually attending a fifth of all calls, (oops!)plus they were better paid than the firefighters as one young boy showed his wage slip complaining, just so happened his father was a firefighter with over 25 years service in and his boy was taking home more than his dad and with a free service pension.
Ah and the final mention of the regional controls, another blistering political cock up, 10 times the original budget, running years late.
I think those millions could of been better spent on equipment for the fire service, instead of creating a logistical nightmare in regional controls.
One day soon Mr McKinstry you will be needing those same Firefighters you have discredited to remove your head from your fat arse, and hopefully they will do it with the professionalism and care you deserve!

Steve Howlett

http://www.chorleycitizen.co.uk/news/3222374.Chorley_firefighter__critical__following_house_fire/

I am not sure if this link works but if you find the time to try you will find out it is a report of a firefighter severly burnt in a house fire carrying out a rescue of a trapped family.
The man recieved over 60% burns and after 3 weeks is still critical, he fell out the back door alight with the casualty.

Incidently the french fire service recently had a VERY bitter dispute in a way only the French do involving pitch battles with riot police, fire fighters blowing thier hands off with IED explosives on route to the riot police, hoses turned on the police also.

So your experiance in a sleepy French hollow leaves you woefully short of the true picture of the free French fire service. Not unusual for your career / hobby, you are incorrect in your statements but this is the Spectator and any one with a little sence expects this.

Whilst Fire fighters continue to enjoy public support and are time and time again recgonised as the most admired profession yours continues as one of the sleazest and un trust worthy.

Intresting link of video of French firefighters 'spirt de corp' towards the police.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YOH51cl6Ns&feature=related

Nick Ralph

What a lazy and ill thought out article. Based on one incident in France, this person thinks that the whole of the British fire and ambulance services should be radically overhauled at god knows what cost?

Is he aware that the French fire service that he praises so highly were having running street battles with police earlier this year over a pay dispute? Is he also aware that the new network of regional control centres that he seems to think is necessary is now running over 3 years late and will cost nearly £2 Billion to get up and running? Does he also know that firefighter deaths are rising yearly due to cuts in numbers and lack of realistic training?

Maybe he should go a visit a fire station to see what is really going on in the British fire service at the moment before he writes such rubbish again.

colin ashmore

Fool!

palepete

Probably its all true, as I can't help noting the hysterical reaction. But this old cycnic doesn't think the next government will do anything either. What does Rod Liddle think?

Day Staff

Leo Mc Kinistry is a freelance journalist and as such as to come up with one or two articles every week to pay for his sojourns to the winery's of France.

and he doesn't have to take responsibility or be accountable for the contents of his articles which are just his opinion and contain little in the way of properly researched information.

We have all traveled abroad and observed some way of working or different approach to life and thought that that was great

however it only works in those particular environments

it is not always possible to import and embed something which works well elsewhere into a different set of circumstances

Leo Mac is excellent at proclaiming what is wrong with the country whilst harking back to the 'good old days' without actually putting forward any sensible means of improvement.

Whilst patronising the wine waiter Leo see something that he regard as good in France and would like to see back in Blighty but immediately blames the British workers for 'not allowing this to happen'

Isn't Leo harking back to the bad old days when Red Robbo ran the country!
Surely he is aware that Maggie put the dreadful unions in their place some time ago,
or has the news that things have changed not reached his isolated Provence retreat.
So Leo you cannot any longer,thanks to Maggie, blame the weak unions for spoiling your Utopian dream lad.

The NHS was set up in 1947 (?)
At the same time the Fire Service was Nationalised.
In 60 years there has been ample opportunity to combine the Ambulance Service with the Fire Service.If the Gov't of the day really wanted this then no-one not even the FBU would have stopped them.
Indeed didn't many Borough Councils back in the 50s/60s actually have a combined Fire and Ambulance Service

Way back beyond that didn't many local councils actually have a combined police and fire service.

The decision to form totally separate Fire, Police and Ambulance Services was almost certainly taken at Gov't level so the Gov't actually went the opposite way to the one Leo desires and have shown little intention since to reverse their policy.

One side effect of this split was that members of the Police Force went on to enjoy greater prosperity than Firefighters and Ambulance Crews

Leo if you think that merging services is such a great idea first take a look at the difficulties arising out of the regional control initiative.

The FBU were advising against that from the outset.

The FBU didn't stop the project going ahead

What has been the outcome?

Leo perhaps the FBU, being close to the machinations of emergency service work, might happen to know a little more about these matters than your good self

a paid hack looking for his next article whilst indulging in a serious bout of wishful thinking whilst feeling a
'A cooling breeze wafting through the plane trees under the inky-black Provence sky.'

Stay in Provence Leo putting the world right with a bottle or two of Rose D'Anjou lad.

Leave the real work to others to do

P.S. Leo

you bring danger into the mix
Let me put this to you

Firefighting is as you say not as dangerous as Construction Work, Sewer work, Chemical Plant Operatives handling Hazardous Materials, Petrol Tanker and other LGV Drivers, Farming and so on.

These are all highly skilled people all doing dangerous jobs

and at times they get it wrong-desparately wrong

they fall, get trapped at height, get trapped underground, spill 10 tonnes of acid onto the highway, crash lorries into other vehicles trapping several people, get trapped in agricultural machinery and so on

these are people who daily get into trouble and need help

the firefighter turns out into a strange hostile environment one in which the distressed person knew so well but still got it wrong

Firefighters overcome the very set of circumstances that placed a trained professional in peril
they almost always deal with that successfully without getting into peril themselves

Just how does that happen Leo?
What gives the firefighter the ability to master the very set of circumstances that brought peril to the one most familiar with that particular job.

Just fires eh Leo ?

mike

A disgraceful inaccurate and ignorant article; not what I expect from The Spectator.
And don't think we can't recognise yet more pro eu propaganda when we read it.

DAVE

I don’t think the comments here are hysterical……..to call firefighters ‘Lazy’ it’s a classic example of how to single out a group, label them and sit back and watch the sparks fly……. not a very nice tactic or thing to do.

As a journalist...do you really believe all figures and statistics and spin before you, do u think we the public are stupid, after all we have witnessed these years with this inept Government and its obsession with spin and performance charts and figures.

It works!!! Look at the figures we can prove it. It doesn’t work [when it’s in their interest] let’s get rid, sell off. Merge it, down size it……..utter rubbish!!!!!!!!!!!

Going off this Governments performance I’m surprised they weren’t sold off years ago!

Is that the same figures and mindset buisness ideology that takes wheels of trolleys placed in hospital corridors and calls them beds or puts up a curtain in the same corridor so you can call it a ward?

Or, keeps patients waiting in the back of ambo’s tied up outside A&E because the clock is ticking on admittance time and it will up the waiting time figures…?

If the ambulance service is in a poor state……..who put it there?

Not the ambulance service and not the fire service.

I think the judges full and balanced argument [not your snapshot reporting] and comments of 'papering over the cracks' were lucid and to the point, I hope people may read it, but most of us are to busy working and paying the bills because of this so called mess of free enterprise we are all currently enjoying.

It strikes at the heart of the ideology that your article feeds, and has taken this country to the point of stagnation and incompetence, dithering from one initiative to another on the backs of sound bites and freeloaders riding the gravy train of people who are prepared to either go out and work or protect and defend this country and who are at present paying a higher price than any of us.

If you think I’m being hysterical read Gen Mike Jackson’s outgoing Dimbleby lecture speech to the nation and Government.

Your article has done all people who work or fight for this country a great disservice.

We all suffer……. workers, emergency services and our armed forces with running down of conditions and even increasing loss of those precious lives.

If you want to protect the public, go and do it or even pick up a rifle, save a life or give your own, or use the privilege of free speech[that people fought and died for]…. to encourage those in power never to start ’ War’ that no one wanted other than for those with a vested financial interest.

Would you be first in a war zone or a disaster or even fire, to commit a selfless act to help someone or would be first to grab the last life jacket when it’s still women and children first….I wonder? But then I have learnt never to pre-judge people by what you see or think you see and always be aware of your own prejudice.

Actions speak louder than words..Im sure you know.

Don’t attempt to set firefighters against ambulance against police against soldiers against workers against unions and against employers…… it wont wash………………..were all to busy trying doing our jobs wading through the daily garbage of policy data and performance pie charts [that you read]whilst trying to do the real work of protecting people.

I don’t think Firefighters are ‘Lazy’ but I do think you need to think about others when your writing……and what you’re your prepared to do or not do, in times of an emergency or war….and your own prejudice before you put pen to paper.

If you don’t like what you think you see here as wrong at home………all I can suggest is Bon voyage…..!

Bruce Paterson

Bring on Ronald Reagan - fire'em all

Stephen Brown

Oh, dear. Lots of knee-jerk reaction and very little thought behind most of the responses to this article.
Yes, the firefighters are a professional cadre; they do a job which I could not contemplate doing, and I was a police officer for 30 years. However, the country where I served had an ambulance service which was part of the Fire Brigade (they fought to keep this terminology!). Ambulances and fire appliances were co-located and the personnel were all cross-trained to varying degrees as it improved their pay rates. It was not unusual to have a big red fire appliance front up to the scene of a person collapsed and the crew to debus with oxygen and defibrillator in hand as they were the closest source of trained help.
This was in the previously-British Crown Colony of Hong Kong. This tradition continues today with firefighters/paramedics on motorbikes zooming around giving immediate information on fires, accidents and casualties faster and more accurately than was the case before their advent.
Every firefighter/medic with whom I had dealings impressed me deeply with their committment to total professionalism, and they didn't have a union!

John Barton

Whilst not wishing to get involved in the debate over whether firefighters are lazy or not I’d like to give a point of view on the value to the community of firefighters carrying out Co-Responder duties.

Notwithstanding the court judgement which ruled that Firefighters could not be forced to co-respond as it was not a part of their Rolemap. A number of retained/part-time firefighters have provided this service for a number of years now. In their case this is an additional voluntary duty which they cannot be compelled to perform.

Not however in the major cities, but in the rural and semi rural areas of the country where time and distance are very important, they arrive on the scene prior to the arrival of the ambulance which is also mobilised to the emergency.

Co-responders are not paramedics but posses the skills necessary to maintain life until professional help arrives, they carry and use defibrillators and save live lives year on year. It’s fair to say that the people they serve are full of praise for what they do and this is reflected in the fact that very often the community donates medical equipment to them.

Given that the Pompiers are established and administered in a very different way to the UK Fire and Rescue Service, Co Responders do not crew ambulances, although some hone their skills by riding with paramedics in their own time to gain more experience and a better insight into the job.

It is very easy to generalise, but as things stand, the law says that firefighters cannot be compelled to co-respond against their will. However, the opposite side of the coin says that those who want to do it should be encouraged and due appreciation be shown for their willingness to do so.

There are a number of arguments surrounding the funding of the ambulance service and I don’t wish to become embroiled in this either.

Firefighters who co-respond are saying quite clearly, ‘it is not for us to play God and stand idly by when we could save a life’ while this argument takes place.

I wholeheartedly support them

John Barton
General Secretary
Retained Firefighters Union

Pikester

John Barton.

Tell you what then, Get your members to do it for Free then !!! Why not tell the people who will read this article the true amount it costs the Ambulance service to run Fire Brigade Co-Responders, Why not point the readers of this article towards your all members circular calming them because they thought the funding was being cut ? You and the RFU are only interested in Co-Responding because you get extra money, and the ill out thought that your station will get special treatment from Authorities who are looking to save money ! Community responders dont get paid for these duties, why should you and the rest of the RF Who ??

William Boreham

As an ex-fireman , I agree entirely with McKinstry. The general public doesn’t seem to understand when it comes to the crunch, firemen will put their own vested interests ahead of the public’s safely and protection. I still remember with utter shame 1977, when we totally abandoned our age-old commitment to protecting the general public (our neighbours, women and children) and walked out on indefinite strike. I attended one of the big meetings before we struck and listened to all the discussions as to how to put into practice the ins and outs of our coming confrontation and at the end, the organisers asked if there were any further questions. I stood up and pointed out that nowhere had anyone mentioned to effect our strike might have on the people we’re obliged to protect. One would have imagined I’d stood up and uttered a string of obscenities. From then on, I was considered some sort of employer’s nark. It has to be remembered that the Fire Brigades Union is of an extreme left-wing bent and left winger’s have always had nothing but contempt for the ‘workers’ they’re supposed to champion. As it turned out, much to the frustrated fury of the FBU and it’s acolytes, a limited number of obsolete Green Goddess fire appliances, manned by untrained squaddys, dealt quite adequately with every incident that cropped up during the 9 week strike. I met some, and as McKinstry observed, they initially imagined they’d been fighting fires all the time and were quite excited at the prospect, but by the time I spoke to them, they’d become disillusioned and were now quite bored. I recall during another dispute, our workshops ‘blacked’ every appliance that came in for repair. Eventually, about half of our ‘fire-engine’ capacity was stuck, idle, in workshops. I was one of the most fulfilling periods I’d had during my service as we were actually busy during our shifts dashing hither and dither and with gusto, tackling incidents in areas where cover was (in theory) lacking. The Union suddenly got the message that those in authority might observe that we could still manage quite adequately with about half the established allocation and quickly called off the dispute. What McKinstry doesn’t mention is the real reason that firemen don’t wish to take on extra work, is of course, that it might mean they will have less energy left to work at their second jobs - the old traditionally enshrined and a not to be messed about with - ’part timers’. In many cases, firemen are far more energetic, enthusiastic and active at their second jobs and will fight to the death any change in their ’cushy’ shift system and work commitment that will upset this happy arrangement. Any real professional would jump at the chance of adding another professional skill to his ( or her) bow and the chance to be more active in serving the public. I only wish I’d have had the opportunity.

Peter

First class article by leo, but the post by William Boreham sums up the Fire Service and the insular organization that it is.

Rick Ogden

With all the talk of hype and hysteria let alone knee jerk reaction, i think it is necessary to point out a few basic facts...

The fire service nationally has undergone more 'modernisation' within the last five years than either of the two other emergency services put togetherin the previous twenty. The performance of the fire service was never in question it was far more a case of a fundamental change of becoming a proactive service than a reactive service. The reason the service was traditionally reactive was down to the legislaiton of the 1947 fire service act that governed the organisaitonally nationally.

I dont need to harp on about what the fire service do, any individual with a modocom of common sense is fully aware of the role that they play. It is probably worth a mention that on the 7/7 attacks the fire service were the lead agency and directed the heart of operations at all sites.

The pressing issue that i see, is how a respected publication such as the spectator has chosen to publish such an ill informed and badly written article. Surely the spectator can stand tall without the need to employ the services of a silly freelance journalist who feels the need to write deeply offensive inaccurate material?

jose garcia

"Oh dear it would seem that when in France Leo McKinstry imbibed rather too much of the local tipple. Hopefully this won't lead to him needing the assistance of any of the U.K's emergency services given the dismal picture of gross inefficiency he paints...

It is a shame that he didn't take the time to actually research his article before launching his misleading and wholly inaccurate diatribe. Whilst he may hold the view that the Fire (and Rescue)Service is still in dire need of "modernisation" every one of the assertions made in the article have little basis in fact and can easily be challenged."

REALLY!!!!!........

2 years ago my old man supervisor at work had an asthma attack (heavy smoker with cronic emphysema)

i called the ambulance , iknew it was serious and i told them so clearly, when they arrived at the hotel in watford where we were working, they strolled like models from the front door to the back of the reception, i screamt at them this is an emergency why arent you running!!!!!!!.

i was told "in case of an accident..."

it took them 15 minutes to give the guy oxigen and wheel a stupid wheelchair inside the back room of the reception to take him out

the old man died of a heart attact on those fifteen minutes induced by the asthma attack.

they didnt even see it happening
i saw his eyes roll up and become glass. first time i seen somebody die in front of my eyes.

y was blind with fury,

everytime i see ER i dont know wether to laugh or cry.....

a month ago i had a fight at the hotel, people pissed as usual, one grabbed a bottle and cut a huge hole on the neck, the guys who did it ran off, the guy with the cut was bleeding like a pig from the neck , i dont know how but i kept my hands on his neck for 30MINUTES!!!!!

THE AMBULANCE TOOK 30 MINUTES for a life and death case, apparently there were only 2 on duty on a saturday night.

next one

my knee hurts , i need an MRI scan, guess what ? there isnt one in watford general hospital....

i have to go 15 miles to hemel hempstead , the waiting list was 4 months but they lost my file so i had to have another appointment to be referred to have the scan.

it gets even better......

i actually had an operation on my knee 2 years ago(at the watford hospital of course), the surgeon didnt see anything
, the pain continued, at the end i came back to see somebody else, who bothered to do an x-ray and saw a lateral meniscus cartilage out of place, so now i have to do the MRI scan and do the operation again.

did somebody said something about public service efficiency???????

FF Wiltshire Fire & Rescue Service

Dear Sir,

I am a current serving wholetime Firefighter within Wiltshire Fire & Rescue Service, and have been for many years. I read with interest Leo McKinstry's article and was so abbhored at its content and insinuation that I have had to reply. I have also read the reply from the Chief Fire Officer of Lincolnshire in which he outlines the predicament of most Fire Services around the country. I find it difficult to disagree with most of his letter, however there are aspects that I would like to counter.

In Mr McKinstry's article he clearly labels all Britains Firefighters as lazy, non conformist, arrogant and egotistical. How dare he. I and many of my colleagues joined this service during an age which has seen a very different service to the one the public enjoys today. We have adopted many changes, and have modernised in more ways than his ill informed, and perhaps ill researched article, gives us credit for. I am personally insulted by his acusations. I pride myself in my professionalism and dedication to the safety of the public. I am not in this profession for an ego trip, I am here because I can make a difference to somebody when they need our help. All I ask for in return is a wage. I do not ask for thanks or gratitude and I certainly do "big up" my heroism, in order to stir up public sympathy.

Just what does Mr McKinstry want from the Fire Service? For the money he pays in his taxes he can expect the follwing .... When he makes a 999 call he expects someone to answer. He expects someone from the Fire Service, if it is them he needs, to deal with his situation, listen to his problem and initially assess his situation, followed by dispatching an appropriate appliance and crew. He then expects them to arrive promptly, and refreshed, and highly trained with adequate equipment, to be able to help. In the event of his home being on fire with possibly someone trapped within, he then expects this crew to risk their lives to save someone. We may not deal with fires like this everyday, but we are always there, just in case. Something, our Retained colleagues, cannot promise to provide. This brings me onto the letter sent in by the CFO of Lincolnshire.

As I have said, I agree with a large amount of what he said, however, I struggle to support his praise of the Retained service. From my experience, they are the ones who are egotistical, and big up their part. They will readily tell stories of being in the Fire Service, but not of being plumbers, housewives, postmen etc .... There are many who have tried to become wholetime but have failed and have found an easier route into the service, via the Retained Duty System. Yes it is true that they provide medical support (co-reponders) to the Ambulance Service, and yes it is true, to a point, the the Wholetime service are reluctant to adopt this role, but our argument is this. We are more than happy to adopt a medical role, but, it should not be at the expense of the Ambulance Service, it should either be inaddition to a properly funded Ambulance Service, or, go the whole hog and amalgamate the two. For either, make sure we have the proper, professional and on going training. Just one thing, don't accuse me of being lazy and non conformist. Unlike some Retained units, we provide a 24hr service. Some Retained Firefighters will tell you that they only do the job out of a sense of moral duty to their community. If that were true, why do they, on occaision at some stations, take an appliance "off the run" (made unavailable), just because they want to go out on the beer. That to me is an unacceptable face of the modern fire service. Yes their shift eats into their family time, but that's part of the job and they know that when they sign on. In Wiltshire alone, retained appliances are off the run for 100's of hours throughout the year.

Stop bashing the Fire Service, we're here when you need us, and that's what you expect.

Duncan

I am a serving wholetime Firefighter and what a disappointing article this is, the research appears to have been done on a whim during a holiday. He should have spent time at a Fire Station in this country. I believe that the daily attacks on firefighters are as a direct result of this kind of reporting, it leads to a minority of people to believe it is right to attack our professional emergency workers both verbally and physically.
Some of the points raised are worth discussion. I for one believe that the Fire and Rescue Service should be run as it is in the USA where the Fire and Ambulance are combined. However Co-responding is an expensive way to get a first aider (and that's all you get) to an life threatening incdent. I would like nothing more than seeing a paramedic symbol on our Fire Engines but I am not happy about attending a medical emergency without any training.
Every person in the Fire Service knows that the Regional Fire Controls will be a complete disaster and people will die as a direct result of this crazy decision by ill advised politicians. I work in a Fire Service where there are 45 Firefighters 'on duty' each day but at the same time there are around 100 people working everyday who are not on the frontline. These range from HR department to the Chief Fire Officer. Why does this never get a mention?
The answer to this disgraceful reporting is for all frontline emergency workers to stick together, hold ours heads up high on our low salaries and attempt to raise our shoddy British press to appreciate us as the American press appreciate theirs. Oh yes, and the Amreican firefighters and paramedics 'rest' whenever they are not on an emergency!

Riccardo la Torre

Shouldn't mr Mckinstry do his research before going to print, for what i'm sure is a much larger salary than any firefighter gets?! He has no clue of the work we do every day e.g fire prevention, community safety, home fire safety visits, drills, routines too name a few. I won't even go into ipds! I lost a friend recently, a great firefighter from hertfordshire who lost his life saving another, he was only 26. How dare mr Mckinstry spit on his memory, when i'm sure he himself has never got anywhere close to performiong such a brave and selfless act, HOW DARE HE! Not to mention the 4 brave firefighters who lost there lives serving there community recently in worcestershire, i wonder if he feels they were lazy and underworked?

Ross Brodie

Wow Leo, you witness a woman fall over and now you are an expert on the amalagmation of emergency services? Ask yourself why fire related deaths are falling... Is it just an accident, or are firefighters doing endless work in the community giving out free smoke alarms and advice freely to anyone who requests? I can guarantee you I speak to more Ambulance /Police personnel than you, and most suggest that firefighters responding to medical calls is not what they want at all. The whole dated beds issue has been discussed and investigated by people much better informed than you, and until you give a sensible suggestion of what constuctive work a firefighter can do at 0300 then the status quo will remain. Presumably you dont want the crews at Belsize to be keeping you up all night practising ladder drills! I Look forward to your half-heated praise when the next bomb goes off, or when half of the west country is under water!

Tom Armstrong

This author obviously does not know what he's talking about. With no experience of any of the emergency services. The reason for the fire brigade and ambulance to be seperate is because they are too totally different jobs, but can work together well in emergency situations. If the fire brigade attended ambulance calls that would lead to less fire appliances avaliable for fire calls and fire brigade emergencys where they were to attend. The fire brigade is a very specialised job, where many different rescue techniques are learned to save lives in a number of different emergencys. They also have basic first aid equipment and most stations are being given defibrillators to deal with any medial care they can provide before the ambulance crews arrive to do there job. The UK emergency services are renowed to be the best in the world, and better than france. The need for firefighters to be firefighters is far grater than them being shafted into doing ambulance work. As for lazy firemen, this title shows the authors ignorance and lack of what he's talking about right from the outset of the article (including the authors use for the term firemen, when women play a key part in todays fire service), firefighters do many different jobs when not attending emergency calls at the station and only get certain "stand easy" periods when they are allowed to deservedly relax, which is usualy interupted by a shout anyway. The reason for the decrease in the number of fires is due to the firefighters and fire brigade themselfs working with the community to make them aware of fire safety and their initiatives of putting up free smoke alarms and fire safety regulations. The fire brigade is a service which does a very diverse and challenging job, the situations firefighters are put in are like no other emergency service, and the time taken to incidents can be vital which is also why a combined ambulance service would be a complete disaster and i believe would result in more deaths as a result. The reason for beds in fire stations is that you are allowed to sleep from 00:00 to 06:40 hours if not summond from your sleep for a shout. Unlike the other emergency services firefighters ability to make quick decisions and be physically able as well as mentaly able is vital that beds are there. The fire service where firefighters work full time are always busy, the author really shows his ignorance with the use of words such as "lazy". If not attending emergency calls which range from a number of different emergencys where there skills are needed to rescue people and resolve incidents, the author only shows "fire statistics" not any other type of emergency calls that they attend, as well as the mass of paperwork they have to do after incidents and generally in the station as well as a constant need for trainign. It is bad enough the government "modernisation" has removed fire appliances from the capital and has even shut down stations,firefighters would have every right to strike if there were proposals to combine it with the ambulance service, as the reason the roles have always remained seperate is for a very good one, that the ambulance service do there job which is a very worthwhile one and necessary job but the fire brigade, are the rescuers and the people who will devise any way possible to rescue an injured or trapped person and reduce risk to property. They are not there to ferry people out to hospital as that is not there job and would be a total waste of there resources the whole point of the ambulance service is to give immediate treatment and to transport a patient to hospital. The author says that when the army did the firefighters job there was "there was very little disruption as a result of the strike’ and had "with fatality rates no higher than average". This did not prove anything about the fire brigade or "call there bluff" as is the author writes. The reduce death rates higher than average would have been partyly luck for the week they were striking, and partly due to more people aware of fire safety when the professionals were striking. The army would have probably sat about when not attending calls unlike the fire brigade who have numerous station routines and fire safety initiatives to deal with when not attending calls, and as i can remeber rightly they were very lucky with the limited number of serious fire and incidents they attended. Firefighters shere professionalism and skill always stands out when amatures are working a profesionals job. A firefighers job will bring them into so many challenging situations most people would'nt even contemplate possible or be able to do. Most of the people like the authors self who have negative views of the fire brigade have no knowledge of any of the emergency services in this case particularly the fire brigade it seems, and highlight there ignorance when they speak or write about somthing they clearly are writting out of pure bloody minded ness. The majority of the comments below mine tend to disagree with the author too.

Ian Mills

As always there are two sides to every story, whilst Mr Leo McKinstry blows off the Sapeurs-Pompiers he so much admires and tries to stick a big knife into the backs off all UK firefighters lets look at another incident from Paris.
One night late in an underpass a car crashes into a column two of the occupants are killed outright, two are seriously injured.
The highly trained Sapeurs-Pompiers arrive and spend far too long firstly stabilizing the casualty, trying to release the two surviving casualties and in the confusion of no clear direction waster valuable time in getting the seriously injured occupants to an operating theater for their much needed medical attention sadly one dies.

In mighty blighty the same incident, the fire crews fresh from their bed arrive at the scene and stabilize the vehicle and working with the overworked underpaid Paramedics who have already stabilized the casualties decide on a plan to release and transport the two victims to hospital. Specialist teams from both the fire and NHS (FRU and HEMS) arrive to assist in this operation, outcome well we will never know, many feel that if that crash had happened in London or a Major City in the UK then maybe just maybe.

Peter Ellis

I'm afraid I have to echo many of the comments above: this article lacks a critical understanding of the issues involved, and presents an overly simplified version of the facts.

Many points have already been covered, but I would like to add one more.

In the typical urban French fire station, there are indeed fire appliances and ambulances (although there is in fact a separate medical response service in France, the advanced SAMU). However, it is not a case of firefighters either staffing a fire appliance or an ambulance. In actuality, on a particular shift separate crews are assigned to each vehicle, as there can obviously not be a situation whereby no fire cover is available due to just one simultaneous medical emergency. In reality, therefore, this is a zero-sum game: dedicated medical response staff exist under both systems, the difference being their employment by the SDIS (Fire and Rescue Service) in France as opposed to an NHS Trust in Britain.

In rural areas (as in the author's example given) the situation is different. Rural France is indeed staffed very largely by volunteer firemen, who again man both fire appliances and ambulances from local fire stations. However, rural Britain is also covered in large part by non full-time Retained firefighters on a similar, albeit not identical, basis. The ambulance service has no equivalent part-time service in the UK. Is the author therefore suggesting that the full-time ambulance service in rural areas be replaced by a part-time service attached to the fire service? And is his principal issue therefore with the ambulance service, rather than the fire service?

In reality, I fear that he has simply extrapolated from one incident, and reached erroneous conclusions which do not stand close analysis. He has witnessed a medical emergency being attended by volunteer French firefighters in a village, and has decided to re-draft the nationwide provision of emergency service (with no meaningful distinction between the very different rural and urban situations) on the basis of a misunderstanding of the situation.

steve

why doesnt mr mckinstry spend some time at some of the stations and rwalise what we actually do before passing any comment. He should realsie that the ambulance service and police are government run so their shortfalls are the governments failings and not that of the fire service. If i wanted to be a paramedic, i would have chosen to be that and not a firefighter, whixch is a completely different job. I wonder if the writer has ever experienced help from the fire service? he would soon change his unwanted views.

Wills

Mr McKinstry, you appear to be able to write editorial copy. I presume therefore that you are available to write copy for advertisements in the magazine also. No? How inflexible is that? What are you, lazy?

Malc

Dear Leo was just having a little plonk inspired joke. This becomes immediately clear on reading the line:

"but then there are a host of other jobs which are even more dangerous, including deep-sea fishing, construction work or soldiering."

Oh right! Yes, far far more dangerous! Of course infinitely more socially responsible. I like the deep-sea fishing one the best.

I will doff the hat in respect when next enjoying the fish finger, look on the hard hat with renewed sense of awe and as for soldiering... can't think why it didn't occur to me.

What about adding "being a citizen of an USA arse licking government"? Looks pretty dangerous to me.

I can't recall however needing a fisherman or a soldier in a hurry, um construction workers... well lets just skate over that one.