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Sunday 27 May 2012

Lord Carey warns British Christians not to get carried away

Friday, 17th February 2012

The British need to talk about religion. The trouble is, every time God rears His head in the public square — as we have seen this week with the row about prayers at council meetings and Baroness Warsi's speech on ‘militant secularism’ — everybody starts speaking in platitudes. The debate follows a familiar pattern: an anti-religion spokesman, probably a man from the National Secular Society, says something about Britain not being a ‘theocracy’. He then might mention America as an example of the theocratic menace, happily ignoring that the USA is, definitively, a secular country. In reply, somebody religious, probably Lord Carey of Clifton, says that ‘religious freedom’ is under threat. And finally, somebody who wants to sound reasonable — it used to always be Tony Blair — says ‘what a difficult and painful issue’ this is. We all agree and try not to think too hard.

Maybe the problem isn't the angry atheists or the religious zealots at the extremes, for once. At least they know what they think. Maybe the problem is the very confused and vaguely Christian mass in the middle. We know that we should think about the fundamental questions, but we can't really be bothered unless we can do it within the narrow mental confines of a media row.

In this week's mag, as it happens, I've interviewed Lord Carey. Far from being a rabid and narrow anti-secularist, he seemed to me to be thoughtful and civilised. He is worried about the marginalisation of faith in public life, and as a result perhaps too eager to be quoted in the papers on religious ‘rights’. But he is also aware that Christians in Britain shouldn't start thinking themselves as martyrs when they are obviously not. Here's a snippet for CoffeeHousers:

‘Lord Carey stresses that British Christians should not see themselves as martyrs. “We are still very lucky in this country,” he says. “Unlike in other countries, we can practise freely. What we are talking about here is discrimination, not persecution.”
But discrimination might be a “prelude” to something more sinister, he says. Anglicans and what he calls the “silent majority” — those who identify themselves as Christian even if they don’t go to church — must stand up for religious freedoms before it’s too late. “It’s up to us to do something. We’ve got to shake up our clergy, shake up the people, encourage them to get over the attitude of ‘We can do nothing about it, this is now a post-Christian age’.”

British Anglicans, he says, have much to learn from their African counterparts. “For them, faith is so important that they would face death for it if it came to that. It’s not an old overcoat that you can dispense. Maybe we have got to learn to be more committed to our faith — sort out the men from the boys, to some degree.”’

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chinasyndrome

February 17th, 2012 5:58pm Report this comment

Christianity is, unfortunately, linked to immigration, which is why we cannot have a rational debate about this subject; and ultimately the parties get 'carried way'. In addition, the indigenous population feel (rightly so) threatened, by recent developments.

Frank P

February 17th, 2012 6:18pm Report this comment

"Lord Carey warns British Christians not to get carried away"

Well, M'Lud. Talk is cheap. You haven't had a hammerlock and bar slapped on you and been dragged up the nick for having a placard declaiming against abortion and homosexuality like some of your flock. Carried away indeed. And banged up! One law for the shepherd and another for the flock, it seems. Perhaps it would be a good idea to use your position on the red seats to change some of the pc legislation that the last mob of shysters introduced?

whyme

February 17th, 2012 7:34pm Report this comment

Since when did carrying a placard about abortion or homosexuality have anything to do with Christianity?

terence patrick hewett

February 18th, 2012 12:13am Report this comment

Militant atheism represents and are the heirs of the worst sort of religious psychopathic mania. These psychopaths burnt and disemboweled in the 17th century and left Christianity when it no longer sanctioned such intolerance. Atheism is not so particular: Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Herr Schicklgruber afforded these madmen the opportunity to do away with millions.

Frank P

February 18th, 2012 1:40am Report this comment

Whyme

I think the gentleman in question professed to be a Christian and considered both to be against the tenets of Christian teaching. What are you saying me old flower - that Mother Mary was a back street abortionist and Jesus a bit of a poofter? Explain.

Roy

February 18th, 2012 2:07am Report this comment

"not to get carried away." The blithering fool.
What does it take before the people get carried away. Inundated by immigrants. Schools taken over by immigrants. Society turned upside down for immigrants. Towns and housing flooded out by immigrants. And still they come. The blithering fool.

Dr Crackles

February 18th, 2012 6:24am Report this comment

The elephant in the room for Christians is that the faith's high points come out of persecution and suffering. Many British Christians have little interest in taking up their crosses, hence the steady decline. Events may force them to take a stand.

telemachus'

February 18th, 2012 8:16am Report this comment

Frank P
Tell me frank was Jesus married?
What were his sleeping arrangements with the 12 after those well oiled suppers?
For that matter why has he no brothers or sisters-In those days one would expect fertile Mary to have a few more children (assuming you are right that she did not inhabit the nether regions of Nazareth)

2trueblue

February 18th, 2012 10:05am Report this comment

The christian leaders allowed the PC brigade to run away with the agenda when they should have been protecting their corner. Mr Blair presided over this agenda and chose when he would declare his beliefs. It is not a convenience it is a way of life.

Chris

February 18th, 2012 10:20am Report this comment

Telemachus you do realise the Bible states that Jesus has brother and sisters don't you? Just because Medieval Catholics were on an anti-woman drive inspired by Greek philosophy doesn't make that the belief of mainstream Christians today.

And as for the gayness, I take it you believe all the unmarried English rugby squad are gay too? I suggest you go tell that to their faces...

Austin Barry

February 18th, 2012 12:09pm Report this comment

Chris

It's a given that Rugby is game played by latent or patent homosexuals. A scrum is all about rear presentation: "touch, pause, engage, ooooh."

Marion Hubbard

February 18th, 2012 2:18pm Report this comment

So-called 'Christians' must distinguish between the essence of Jesus' teachings and the politics of the early Church.

Fergus Pickering

February 18th, 2012 4:20pm Report this comment

Among men who play rugger
You seldom find a bugger.
Nobody strokes a bum
In the scrum.
Nevertheless...

Gavin Ewart

Fertra

February 19th, 2012 10:25am Report this comment

"For them, faith is so important that they would face death for it"

Well, it's more likely to be death for others: http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2012/01/witch_hunter_helen_ukpabio.php

If support is to be sought from African religion, one would hope condemnation of such brutal superstition would clearly accompany it.

Reb

February 19th, 2012 9:05pm Report this comment

Unfortunately for Christians, they are going to get sidelined along with Muslims. Basically because the British are too scared to wrestle Islam into a palatable British faith as they did with Anglicanism. Christians are making the mistake of allying themselves with Muslims against secularists, this is only going to hasten their demise.

Tony P

March 9th, 2012 5:37pm Report this comment

Telemachus - as a point of information Jesus did have brothers and sisters. 4 brothers and at least 2 sisters. Matthew 1.25 describes him as Mary's first born son. Matthew 12.46 - his mother and brothers. Matthew 13.55-6 gives his brothers' names - James (Yakov), Joseph, Simon and Judas and mentions sisters in the plural. Acts 1.14 mentions Mary and his brothers. Roman Catholic dogma about Mary as the perpetual virgin is not in the Bible and not true.

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