The Oxbridge Elitism Debate: Lynne Featherstone Intervenes

Natasha

Not entirely related to the article, but I know from experience that Oxford is elitist. I applied there, after receiving four As at A-Level (including full marks in most exams). I didn't get an interview, and the story was the same for all of the other Oxford (not Cambridge) applicants at my mediocre state school.

I later got into all the other universities I applied to, including UCL, King's College and Durham, all without interview.

Reeks of elitism to me.

Martin Bright

Really sorry to hear that, Natasha. Probably best not to get stuck on Oxford and Cambridge. Sounds like they may not have been elitist enough in your case. Their loss is the gain of wherever you went in the end.

Oscar India

I need to tread carefully here because:

a) this makes my blood boil and
b) I've been in the local watching the cricket

But....

The aim cannot be to get more state or under-privileged pupils into "elite" unversities unless, hand in hand with that, there's an acceptance that those universities need to maintain their academic excellence. Otherwise you're not widening access to the elite, you're bringing the elite nearer the norm, which helps nobody, regardless of background.
Oxford and Cambridge (and, for that matter Durham, Exeter et cetera) have always taken people based on ability, regardless of background. Nobody gets refused a place because they went to the wrong school. That was the core failing with (then Chancellor) Gordon Brown's response to the Laura Spence case - it wasn't that she wasn't "qualified" that she lost out, it was that amid a field of people who were they simply thought others would contribute more to the life of the college (and, yes, that was because of what they're backgrounds had given them no doubt).
the crunch here is that it's for schools outside the private sector to up their game, not for universities to lower theirs. Sure, we could all go to identical universities, with identical qualifications, full of identical people and do identical degrees - but what good would that do the UK? None.

Oxbridge Professor

Natasha, you probably had a mediocre to poor personal statement. Everyone who applies to Oxbridge has 4+ A's (and I'm betting you did General Studies which doesn't count) and we can't interview everyone. You getting rejected proves nothing.

Pot Head

Who want's to go Oxbribge anyway? Just end up with a shit job like a bloody journalist, politician or lifetime of corporate drudgery at E&Y, PWC or some ghastly bank- Yuck

Simon Neville

Lots of good points here.
2 quick points of my own:
1) Cambridge and Oxford are not the be-all and end-all, and hopefully one day employers will start to realise that. My girlfriend went to Cambridge for 2 years, couldn't stand it despite being on for a first, left and went to Sussex.
2) The government want to get 50% of school leavers to go to university, yet if more people end up in university it will devalue a degree, meaning for graduates trying to get a job (of which they are already few and far between) they will be forced to take on an MA, or a second undergrad degree to stand out from the crowd - hence saddled with twice the amount of debt.

Natasha

If I included General Studies, that would mean I got 5 As. I am perfectly aware that it doesn't count.

A mediocre personal statement would make sense, but that doesn't explain my 5 other acceptances on a highly competitive course (law). UCL, where I eventually went, had around 20 applicants for each place. Somehow, I don't think a poor personal statement would have carried me through there.

Ben

Natasha, the problem is not that you had 4 A's, it is that so many other candidates did too. Examinations are supposed to differentiate students of different abilities, but when they're too easy and so many students get top grades, they cannot fulfil this role.

There was a time when there were S level questions taken optionally with the A level exam, and Oxbridge had their own scholarship examinations in December. These were all harder than the A levels - and the A levels then were harder than they are today - but they could be tackled by those who had been specially coached in lieu of ability, so they did not undo the advantage that public school pupils enjoy.

In the final analysis, a level playing field will be achieved when there are more high standard secondary and comprehensive schools - something that will require a reversal of the trends of the past fifty years.

Dirty Euro

Oxford is not elitist. Haven't you seen chumps go to Oxford. Even Laurel and Hardy can get in. The place is a dumping ground for morons.

mart

Dear Martin,

I'm glad you gave a link to the report. Even a quick skim read shows the situation is *much* more complicated than the two headline figures you quote.

For example, there is commentary following the headline figures (which according to paragraph 2.2 are averages across all grades and staff groups). Also there is a more detailed table further down that page giving a breakdown per-grade together with standard deviation numbers.

So IMHO the statistics can't be used to make simplistic conclusions.

Also I don't understand how Ms Featherstone could be said to have "unearthed" the report. It's published on a Cambridge University official web site.

Finally it seems to me that in collecting, publishing, and analysing their own salary data in this way, Cambridge University are demonstrating an enlightened attitude to the subject - the opposite of the impression one might get from your article.

I'm enjoying your blog by the way - thank you and please keep the articles coming!

Fergus Pickering

Natasha, I'm sure you know that four As is nothing much. Or of you didn't before you will now. You suppose that Oxford is 'elitist' by whichyou mean thatit prefers children from public schools. I don'tythink thatis the case. A fiend of mine from school, now an Oxford professor, would bend every rule in the book to favour children from state schools, children like the ne he was. OK, that's anecdotal. Here's another anecdote. I, along way short of a briliantscholar, got into Oxford in 1964 with a clutch of mediocre Scottish Highers. London wouldn't look at Scottish qualifications so to hell with THEM. Oxford took me on the strengthof their entrance exam, an essay about the Beatles if I emmeber, and a series of interviews. When I got there I found public school people MUCH better educated than I was - well what would you expect, all that money paid and nothing to show for it? Incidentally one of my friends, working class from Hainault, was let in on his very good A levels alone, thoughhe didn't like Oxford much. We state school kids certainly had to catch up. Well, I did catch up. I found I was just as clever as a lot of the public school lot. It's just that initially I knew less and I wasn't as good at presenting myself. Oxford gave me confidence though it didn't in fact give me much money. I'm glad I went. Edinburgh, where I WANTED to go, wouldn't have been as good for me. Scotland is a very parochial place. Anyway, if I were you I wouldn't go about thinking Oxbridge has slighted you. They haven't, and what's the use of a great big chip on your shoulder. That way socialism lies, and you wouldn't want that, would you? Incidentally, neither of my daughtersent to Oxbridge. Given the different things they wanted to do, Oxbridge was not appropriate.

Oxbridge Professor

@Natasha

"A mediocre personal statement would make sense, but that doesn't explain my 5 other acceptances on a highly competitive course (law). UCL, where I eventually went, had around 20 applicants for each place. Somehow, I don't think a poor personal statement would have carried me through there."

UCL is a worse university. They have so many applicants per place because most people who apply to Oxbridge also apply there as a backup (rather like, um, you!) 4 A's means nothing! What about the public school educated people who get rejected despite having 5 (proper ;-)) A's and a personal statement vetted by three or more teachers, and 2 or 3 practice interviews? Does this prove reverse discrimination? Of course not.

A-Levels are principally about jumping through hoops, and while of course there is certain degree of that in Oxbridge, it is too a much lesser degree (no pun intended, lol).

Elf

Natasha, I go to a comprehensive and have got an offer from Cambridge. When just about everyone who applies is predicted straight As, grades clearly are not going to be the deciding factor. It seems to be more about the overall candidate - their extra interests, how they think on their feet, whether they are willing to challenge themselves. And Martin, it's not the individual schools' fault. I got really helpful advice, tons of support and encouragement when I was feeling a bit wobbly and never encountered any of the 'long-standing resistance' you say exists in the state sector.

Lynne Featherstone

Mart - I've talked about how the numbers come to light in my second posting on the topic - http://www.lynnefeatherstone.org/2009/02/cambridge-university-pay-continued.htm

I agree there is a lot of complexity in the detail of the numbers - but we shouldn't lose sight of the forest for the trees. The headline figures I've used are accurate - and not easily explained away.

THX1138

My Wife went to a Northern Comp and with no parental support she got a place at Oxford and turned it down to study law at UCL, exactly because of the attitudes of people like "Oxbridge Professor" and possibly the better nightlife.

In the real world in a very high profile media job she now employ's many Oxbridge graduates but she insists the that the UCL graduates are far better.

Martin Bright

This is a really fascinating thread of responses. I will revisit this issue as soon as I can.

Isaac bl**dy Newton

Why so keen to go to university anyway? There seems to have been a pretty well matched correlation between Britain's decline as a world power and the growth of higher education. And, as for Oxford bl**dy 'University', look at the front benches in parliament and tell me which alma mater takes credit for that lot?

Fergus Pickering

THX whateveritis, Well she would, wouldn't she? And if an Oxbridge graduate behaved in the same way it would be put down to Natasha's 'elitism'. As for the front bench, don't forget that McBroon DIDN'T go to Oxbridge. And John Prescott didn't go anywhere.

Oxbridge Professor

@THX1138

'My wife turned down a place at Oxford for UCL...now insists that the UCL grads are better.'

Funny that.

Look, UCL is a perfectly respectable university, and no-one would claim that Oxford's night life can compare to that in London, but the undergrad degrees in Oxbridge are simply much more difficult than those at any other UK university. And that's before you even get to the tutorial system which gives you a chance for a weekly 2-on-1 compared to the classes of 15 you get elsewhere.

If you don't want to shoot for the stars, and want a straightforward ride without being truly pushed for 3 mediocre years, then sure, go for UCL/LSE.

Just don't let the chip on your shoulder weigh you down for the rest of your days.

Fergus Pickering

Ah, Oxbridge Professor, but back in 1964-66 I had a weekly 1 on 1 tutorial with a polymathic genius called John Jones who was the cleverest man I ever knew. Those were the days, my friend. And Richard Burton gave me a ride in his car to Cardiff Arms Park.

THX1138

Fergus P & Oxbridge Prof one of Mrs THX's subordinates once whined went beaten to a promotion by someone who had gone to a Northern Redbrick, they said and I kid you not "but I went to Oxford and so and so only went to Manchester " as if something that happened fifteen years ago mattered now. Mrs THX thinks that for some Oxbridge graduates their sense of entitlement gets in the way in the real world .

"Well she would, wouldn't she?" and "Funny that."

Yes she would say that because she knows what she is talking about and actually interviews, hires and works with these uber high achievers in an extremely competitive and very high profile area in the entertainment industry.

It's so quaint that in today's massively competitive world that you think that she could afford to be chippy about this and discriminate in favour of her old Alma mater, people are hired and promoted because they are bright,talented, get on with the job and err that's it.

Fergus Pickering

THX, I don't know your wife, but if you think that people are hired and promoted ANYWHERE just because they are bright and talented then you really should get around more. Did John Prescott get where he did by being bright and talented. Did Fred the Shred? Jonathan Ross? My old boss used to hire typists (there were typists in those days) according to a sort of sexual quotient. Presumably that works for weathergirls and newsreaders.

THX1138

Fergus "ANYWHERE" including Oxford & Cambridge university then?

If you went to Oxford what we're you doing with a boss? I see your attracted to the glamour of the entertainment industry too or why name drop Richard Burton?

I promise if you want a top job at the business end of the entertainment industry it's very competitive & demanding nothing will keep there in the long term but raw talent.

KB

Oxbridge Professor,

You should use a possessive with a gerund.

(OTOH, thanks for sinking to the demotic.)

Oxbridge Professor

"If you went to Oxford what we're you doing with a boss?" - Incomprehensible.

"I promise if you want a top job at the business end of the entertainment industry it's very competitive & demanding nothing will keep there in the long term but raw talent." - OK

Fergus Pickering

Ah THX 1138 but you never got into Burton's Rolls. AND it had a cocktail cabinet. Incidentally, the date when this must have happened shows conclusively I am a bit old for the business end of the entertainment industry. And my boss went to the LSE. He also went bankrupt. Oh, and Wales beat Scotland 3 points to nil good for Burton but not so good for me.

THX1138

Fergus this is getting fun sorry if my last comment was a bit sniffy, your a good sport. No I haven't been Richard Burton's Rolls I bet that was good fun. While we're name dropping, I have however been in a Private Jet with a major British Movie star and yes it did have a drinks cabinet and lovelies to serve the drinks.

Mrs THX reports directly into the Chairman who of course didn't go to university at all and I hope they don't go bust but it does seem that the masses like cheap escapist entertainment in these difficult times.

Nick Kaplan

Natasha;

The plural of anecdote is not data. That you have experience of one aspect of unfair treatment does not prove that there is elitism.

I went to a private school. I had friends who got 10 A*s at GCSE and 5 As at A-level, they were involved in lots of societies etc. Many of them got rejected from every single Uni they applied to, including Oxbridge, without interview. This does not prove there is reverse elitism, your example (however unfair) doesn’t prove there is elitism; the system is simply strange.

Lynne Featherstone;

“The headline figures I've used are accurate - and not easily explained away.”

How typical, a politician more concerned with the headlines, then with explaining the actual details. I would imagine these “headline figures” are somewhat like the “headline figures” Harriet Harman quoted a few months back when she talked about the gender pay gap on the basis of women working part time earning less than men working full time, quelle suprise!

Of course when you spend five minutes looking at such figures and actually compare like with like (e.g. unmarried women without children working full-time as compared with unmarried men with no family working full time) you find that women actually earn very slightly more. But that would be too much luck doing the hard work, plus you wouldn’t get any political points would you? And after all its only the latter that matters.

lynne featherstone

The detail gets even more interesting then the headlines. The headlines are pretty damning but it gets worse if you actually do go into the detail. The “market pay supplements and other pensionable and non pensionable payments” table shows that these are mostly paid to men and that up to 125% of salary has being paid in this way. Anyway - the point is - I am not judge and jury - but I am equalities spokesperson for the Liberal Democrats and having come across what looks like a whacking great gender pay gap etc have referred it on for investigation to the body (EHRC) that is the judge and jury. Would Nick K prefer me to ignore all of this?

Nick Kaplan

I certainly would rather you ‘ignored all this’, a ‘commission for equality,’ which is to act as judge and jury sounds extremely Orwellian to me, but I suppose the left thought 1984 was a manifesto rather than a warning so that shouldn’t surprise.

Oxbridge Professor

@KB - "Oxbridge Professor,You should use a possessive with a gerund.(OTOH, thanks for sinking to the demotic.)" - Care to elaborate??

A student

I'm shocked at just how obnoxious Oxbridge professor comes across. To people reading this entry- I ask you would you want to be taught be someone like that? As for his assertions that UCL and LSE are worse universities I would refer him to the recent government university assessments. LSE consistently outperformed Oxford, and in many areas drew with Cambridge. In law our career prospects are higher: higher average salary, and the highest earning barristers in the country are from LSE- Gray's Inn tax chambers, Cherie Booth (was highest earning female barrister) and Lord Grabiner.
My advice if you do not go to Oxford or Cambridge, is to ignore the likes of 'Ox Prof' and judge your loss for yourself. The PM isnt oxbridge, the head of the civil service isnt. Many billionaires arent- Alan Sugar, Bill Gates, and George Soros. If you believe in yourself and work hard you can get to the top- and when you do- u can enjoy the knowledge that you did it without the 'Oxbridge badge, but as a strong individual.' My advice is ignore bitter idiots like 'ox prof' who clearly feel a need to undermine others, and to enjoy your degree.

A parent

for every state school child who gets turned down, I can tell you five stories about top private school scholars being turned down. if anything the evidence of reverse discrimination is far stronger. The problem is , of course, that we have far too few decent universities in the UK because education always comes second in resourse allocation and the better universities have failed to raise money from private sources because they have decided to rely upon the state.

Ruth

It isn't just about academic excellence; if all your applicants have 3 or 4 As, what do you do next? You take the ones who are impressive basically. I got into Cambridge and I'm a single mum from a state school. It isn't elitist in terms of the school you went to, it is elitist in terms of how impressed they are with the candidate- I know that from sitting in on interviews after finishing my degree. if you don't come across as tough, determined, polite and passionate about your subject, your 4 'A's won't get you a place against another candidate with 4 A''s who as, or appears to have, these qualities during their interview. Perhaps the comment from Natasha betrays the reason she wasn't accepted; the mental approach of assuming that not her getting in was someone else's fault... The ones who get in love their subject enough to be happy to do it at any of their choices, and if they are tough enough to get through it (and very few accepted drop out- I never met one) they are tough enough to take rejection and apply the following year anyway. Trust me, you need to be tough as well as a 4 'A' student, unshakeably good-mannered and you need to love your subject more than merely the idea of studying it at Oxbridge.