Ken Livingstone stoops to new levels

Michael Booth

Ken has form with insults - remember the Nazi slur???????

Jon Rosenberg

So sue him. While the libel laws have been misused by many in recent years (and not so recent years for that matter) this would appear to be a reasonable matter for their use. After all they were brought about so an individual could obtain redress from another for having the honour impugned. (Well that and to curb the fighting of duels. Which could also be fun for the rest of us, you and Ken with water pistols from 20 paces.)

Kojak

Martin,

Good luck with your letter to Ken Livingstone - but don't hold your breath waiting for an apology.

Frank Sutton

A letter to our local paper denounced the neighbours who had complained about the constant barking from a dog rescue centre as "dog haters".
The "phobe" suffix hadn't caught on at the time, but let's not be fooled by it - Islamaphobe, homophobe and surely many more "phobes" waiting to come out: a lazy slur to depict anyone you don't like as some kind of extremist.
That might cast me as a "kenlivingstonephobe" - well, sooner that than be called a "kenlivingstone denier".

Ian Walker

It's not technically possible for a gastropod to stoop, of course.

MikeF

The charge of 'Islamophobia' is not a serious one. There is no Islamophobia. The word is just an item of pseudo-sociological gibberish with which the left attempts to disguise one of its sectarian preferences in a veneer of supposed analytical objectivity. Like almost everything people like Ken Livingtone utter the term says nothing at all about the people against whom it is directed but is profoundly illuminating - you might even say it lifts a veil - on the cast of mind behind it.

In this case what it reveals, of course, is the extent to which the left cannot emancipate itself from the delusion that its opinions and policies have a 'scientific' basis - that they are somehow the only possible options available that are compatible with basic rartionality. Hence the use of a terminology that parodies the form of genuine scientific - in this case medical - vocabulary but is devoid of any of the analytical content of the real thing. To put it bluntly it is a word used purely for effect, one that tries to fool people through its sound and appearance that it is the product of deductive reasoning when in reality it is just a form of camouflage for a species of intolerant ideological narcissism that cannot acknowledge itself for what it is.

So don't say: "I am not an Islamophobe." By doing so you validate the thinking behind the charge. You would be treating mere name-calling as if it were reasoned argument. Instead treat it with the contempt it deserves.

jon dee

No reasonable person would deny your right to expect an apology from Livingstone over his serious charge.

However, whether this increasingly extreme and "sad figure" any longer understands the impact of his insulting statements, is questionable.

London and Labour will hopefully ignore his Mayoral ambitions, while I wish you luck with your request.

terence patrick hewett

Why do you care what a drunken anti-semite like Livingstone says.

Aberdeen Angus

MikeF - 'So don't say: "I am not an Islamophobe." By doing so you validate the thinking behind the charge. You would be treating mere name-calling as if it were reasoned argument. Instead treat it with the contempt it deserves.'

But Mike, Martin is a fully paid up member of the PC brigade. Amongst guardianista circles accusations of 'racism', 'sexism', 'homophobia' are regularly dished out to anyone who deviates from PC orthadoxy. It is as important to them that these words retain their potency as it was important to priests of old that the bogus accusation of 'herasy' was taken seriously.

In his last post he said Labour was becoming BNP-lite because some of its frontbenchers have been addressing, in the mildest of terms, peoples concerns that unrestricted immigration could cause some problems (concerns he also denounced as 'ignorant'). Will he be apologising Andy Burnham? He doesn't seem to like it so much being on the receiving end of these accusations though.

Sarah AB

The word 'Islamophobia' is bandied about too much - as in the example discussed in this piece - but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Aberdeen Angus

Sarah - "The word 'Islamophobia' is bandied about too much - as in the example discussed in this piece - but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist"

Absolutely - 'But I'm not a heretic, I'm a true believer. They're the heretics over there, punish them not me.'

Ian Walker

Perhaps the answer is to brand those of a religious bent "logophobic," i.e. an irrational hatred of reason and logic.

Liz

Martin - you're tired of it are you? Really tired of it? Then act. The Livingstone's and Galloway's of this world are empty vessels who's political careers only exist because people like you fail to act. Please, do us all a favour and take his to the cleaners.

Martin

Livingstone "comes close to" condoning suicide bombing.

You're "a bit of" an Islamophobe.

Silly stuff, isn't it?

You might have mentioned the hatchet-job documentary you made about Livingstone during the last mayoral election campaign. That's where all this originates. And the rude things you've said about your successor at the New Statesman, Mehdi Hassan.

It's just a tedious Harry's Place-style spat, isn't it?

John Edwards

I have to agree with the comment from Martin. Some claims of Islamophobia are as devoid of content as being accused of anti-semitism on Harry's Place.

Ken does not like you because he obviously thinks your documentary helped him to lose a job he loved.

Noa Zrk

"The charge of Islamophobe is a serious one, that could have serious consequences for my future work...".

Blimey Martin, you are absolutely right!

Your integrity and your safety, are sacrosanct, like your right to freedom of speech, are absolutes and you should not be subjected to any abuse or indirect threats because of it.
Especially from an ex Mayor of London for heavens sake. The man is a wretch.

Except for Rhoda of course.

Linda Smith

Mr Bright, if, as you say, you have spent "considerable time studying Islam, including three years on an MA at the School of Oriential and African studies, you must know that according to Islamic theology, the Koran is the word of God, the one true religion revealed through his last Prophet Mohammed. Islamic theology reveres the Prophets of the Old Testament and recognises Jesus (Isa) as a Prophet, not a supernatural being, and explains the failure of the Prophets of the Old and New Testaments to prophesy the coming of Islam by asserting that the Jews and Christians distorted their Holy Books, eg:

"O People of the Book! There has come to you Our Apostle, revealing to you much that you used to hide in your Scripture, suppressing and passing over much. There has come to you from Allah a (new) light (Muhammad) and a clear Book [the Qur'an]." Qu'ran 5:15

Hence, in the Koran, Jews and Christians are reviled as mendacious disbelievers who must be subjugated, e.g.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low." [Another translation says:] "pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection." Qu'ran 9:29.

Islamic theology cannot recognise Judaism or Christianity as legitimate or equivalent pathways to God/Allah with Islam because to do so destroys the bedrock of Islamic theology. Antisemitism is, a priori, at the heart of Islam.

I do not understand why, in the light of your own indepth study of Islam, you would therefore describe yourself as an "Islamophile".

I should be interested in your comments.

MikeF

Angus - maybe so. The other use of parodic language in this instance is the mock-legalese in the word 'charge'. The word should be used only in the formal context of a proper legal process. Being labelled an 'Islamophobe' or any of the other various 'phobes' that the left has invented or, of course, a 'bigot' when they dispense with the pretext of analysis and just resort to abuse is not a 'charge' - it is just, as I said previously, name-calling. That is all it is Martin - why are you so frightened by it?

DavidDP

"Antisemitism is, a priori, at the heart of Islam"

Well, less so than in Christianity, with the Jews as killers of Christ.

Linda Smith

DavidDP: At the heart of Christianity is the claim that Jesus, a Jew, was the son of God, born of a virgin, etc. That belief does not depend on whether the Jews were "killers of Christ" or not.

In contrast, at the heart of Islam is the claim that Islam is the true Abrahamic religion, that the Koran is God's word, and that the Old Testament Prophets and Jesus were "Islamic" prophets. This fundamental claim for the "truth" of Islam falls at the first hurdle because the only explanation for the failure of the OT Prophets and Jesus to herald the coming (return) of Islam is that the Jews and Christians mendaciously distorted their scriptures, notably the Torah.

If Muslims were to now say that the Jews are not mendacious falsifiers, then the foundations of Islam would be knocked from under their feet. That is why "Antisemitism is, a priori, at the heart of Islam".

By the way, my view is that all religions are human constructions.

Osred

Livingstone cant stoop, he's lower than a rats arse in a coal mine already. He merely excretes. Take no notice of the old turtle's head.

michael

Maybe people of all faiths need to be defined
by their unequivocal activities rather than their quibble-some beliefs.

phil

Martin perhaps you should consider that praise from red ken is far more insulting than any accusations he may raise .His history goes before him and surely his future is in his past .Would you have him at your dining table or rely upon him when help was needed ?-if the answer is no ,why care what he says or thinks ?

Cuffleyburgers

Martin - unfounded abuse repeatedly heaped on the heads of those whome they disagree with/are jealous of/don't like has been a defining characteristic of the Labour party modus operandi for a number of years now.

I'm sorry you feel put upon, but you have been supporting these bastards all along.

Livingstone is an unpleasant individual who debased all he touched, no different from Blair and Brown, Ed Balls, Mandelson Campbell, Whelan and the whole crowd.

Osred

RE:DavidDP@ 1:13pm

"Antisemitism is, a priori, at the heart of Islam"

Well, less so than in Christianity, with the Jews as killers of Christ."

You sure? The Koran and the New Testament - compare. Locate and compare examples of anti-semitism within each text.

Vulture

Cuffleyburgers:
Exactly so. Despite his MA, Martin is not very Bright if he fails to see that the scum he has been happily supporting these past many years are exactly that. Scum.

I guess he has invested too much emotional capital in 'the Left' to admit it. So he is going to have to spend an awfully long time ( along with other Jewish journalists like Nick Cohen and David Aaronovich) pretending that 'the Left' are not what they quite clearly are : a bunch of Islamist-appeasing, anti-Semitic arseholes.

Alexandrovich

"For the record I am an Islamophile, not an Islamophobe. i have spent considerable time studying Islam, including three years on an MA at the School of Oriental and African studies while working at the Guardian and the Observer. I have written widely on the subject of the Islamic extreme right and travelled across north Africa and the middle east to do so."

So what did you learn Martin? Anything? Care to share it with us?

Rhoda Klapp

"I have written widely on the subject of the Islamic extreme right"

Just for my education, as I seem to have missed all the writings, what is it that makes them extreme right? Are they for individual responsibility? Private enterprise? The free market? It can't be the forcing people to do what they want on pain of death, becuase that in no way distinguishes them from the extreme left. In other words, they are religious nutters, not extremist Adam Smithers.

Andy Gill

Livingstone is an increasingly sad and embittered figure, who should be kicked while he's down. So drag him through the courts. He deserves it.

merlinthepig

Martin

Despite the still glowing embers of my resentment at my comments previously being moderated off your blog by some delicate flower, on this occasion I support you and say with all sincerity let him have it. Both barrels. I have been physically close enough to this man to know how odious he is.

Old Georgetowner

If you don't sic your lawyers on him, he'll do it again -- to you or to someone else.

So whether he keeps doing it is really up to you, isn't it?

Linda Smith

A couple of days ago I asked Martin Bright for his comments on my post re Islamic theology and antisemitism (see above).

I copied my comment to Stephen Pollard, the editor of the Jewish Chronicle - Mr Bright is a JC journalist - Mr Pollard immediately responded. Martin Bright's silence is deafening.

Cole

Today you can be accused of being an Islamophobe for reading the news, for example, on the religious repression in the Islamic world. And then to speak about it you might be tarred with a worst brush!

Like for example what is going on in Iran, with its converts to Christianity, which Ken would happily overlook!

Biodegradable

Let's get Livigstone's remarks in context, or rather let's see how out of context they are:

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/32126/livingstone-you-have-libelled-me-apologise

The ex-mayor made the remark after being asked by his interviewer, the Telegraph journalist Andrew Gilligan, whether he was fond of a drink.

Mr Livingstone replied that “it was a smear by Martin Bright, who was basically a bit of an Islamophobe”.

So, asked about his drinking Livingstone accuses Martin Bright of being an "Islamophobe".

Maybe I need a drink to follow that logic...

Biodegradable

Vulture
May 24th, 2010 6:09pm:

"... along with other Jewish journalists like Nick Cohen and David Aaronovich..."

Nick Cohen isn't Jewish:
http://nickcohen.net/2009/02/12/jesus-im-turning-into-a-jew/

Linda Smith

Biodegradeable: I noticed that lapse of logic too. Maybe Ken has converted to Islam? As you probably know, alcohol is forbidden in Islam.