A neighbour's child

Bob Latchford

Ms Phillips, for every 1 of these, there are 50 who die because of Israeli checkpoints preventing them from reaching their very own medical facilities.

Marin

Yes, they look the other way and I wonder why.

Hysteria

sources please Bob? 50:1..? really?

René Ragetli

Thank you for the inspiring story. I spent several days as a patient in an Israeli hospital and saw many people from the Occupied Territories receiving treatment.

Alcuin

When Anthony Fisher approached Hayek to ask his advice on how to stop the march of Socialism in Britain in the 1950s, Hayek told him it would take many years of quiet and hard preparation. So it proved, but 25 years later, the Tories were ready with the ideas and strategy to roll it back. I sometimes shudder at the thought of what Britain would now be like had Thatcher failed.

So it is with Israel and Islam, despite the latter's obvious deficiencies. The bigger the lie, the longer it takes to expose it. Just keep plugging away, and when our leaders find that they have their backs to the wall and appeasement has failed, they will be ready for the message that people like Melanie are sending. I just hope it will not take 25 years, because I would like to see it.

Tiberius

The venomous elements in the West plus the hate-preaching women in the Regent's Patk mosque revealed on C4 this week.

Thomas R

Bob Latchford -- do you have a link to share or can you point to some evidence for your assertion?

Robin

Bob,

Got some evidence?

Mel Victoria

Presumably it is also Israel's humanitarian side that forces the Palestinians to live in the dire conditions that prevail in Gaza which cause so much suffering to the elderly and young, both groups subjected to collective punishment courtesy of Israeli policy

Ann

Bob's usual venomous nonsense. Those checkpoints are there because the Arabs murder Israeli children. The likes of Bob will never grasp this. They don't have the mental apparatus.

RPK

Golda Meir said Peace will come when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us
At least one Palestinian father understands this even if Bilious Bob and his amen corner don't

Peter Thomas

Still waiting for the evidence Bob?
And Mel - why aren't the Egyptian 'brothers' part of your equation? They have a border with Gaza that they could open and they certainly aren't in the business of giving medical aid to the people of Gaza.
Hamas are busy manufacturing the 'dire conditions' and exploiting their own population (as human shields for example) - in between plotting the destruction of Israel.
No politician - in any nation anywhere - would trust them. Abbas doesn't - and King Hussein threw their predecessors out of Jordan.

davidka

yes there are many such stories which are no news to the Msm except if they can twist it into a moral inversion to slander Israel.
Which MSM pub it recemtly reported that a Palestinian had perished because he was not allowed accross to Israel, when in fact he was trying to cross into Egypt to get treatment.

Joe Camel

Well, there are things that can do you more harm than being stung by a scorpion. Believing what you read about Israel in the Grauniad, for example.

Adam B.

Bob, provide some evidence. Otherwise, apologise for your slur.

Adam B.

Mel Victoria, Israel doesn't "force" the Palestinians of Gaza to live in any particular way. The genocidal, racist Hamas administration sees to that. (And ever seen Gaza's border with Egypt? Look at a map). Amazing that people like you can't even bring yourselves to say anything positive about Israel, ever, even when her doctors save lives.

d1carter

Mel:
Pardon me, for being so late in welcoming you back. I hope you enjoyed the holiday. I tried to post earlier but didn't make it.

davod

"Presumably it is also Israel's humanitarian side that forces the Palestinians to live in the dire conditions that prevail in Gaza which cause so much suffering to the elderly and young, both groups subjected to collective punishment courtesy of Israeli policy"

Sorry mate. You can place the blame on the Oslo accords and the return of Arafat.

jose garcia

Hey Bob

if arabs dont like palestine's checkpoints, they can always go back home instead of illigally ocupaying israeli territory.

palestine=judea=jewish land, israel go free from arab ocupation!!!!!

raymond joseph douglas

No Melanie,to even report such acts of kindness just goes against the narrative we are fed about Israel from our media.Whether this is outright prejudice or just a desire not to upset those who supply them with stories,i don't know.Whatever,I challenge the BBC to report this and other good news stories about Israel!

Ozeg Moore

The simple truth is that if Israel were not deliberately targeting the humanitarian supply of much needed shoes and socks and inner soles, those two children - as well as countless others - would not have had to go barefoot.

Luke Matthew Sutton

Because there are ordinary and good people in every community. This has nothing to do with critisism of Israel's use of the military or of Palestinian groups use of terrorist tactics.

You cannot by association use this to justify or mask the poor actions of Israel’s military.

And really "The venomous west"? I tried to get angry, but this just left me exasperated. Israel gets an awful lot of attention and sympathy in the western press. I'm not criticising that, I just think you’ve got a one-eyed view of the various coverage.

Imshin, Israel

A friend spent quite a lot of time in Ichilov Hospital in Tel Aviv, recently, with her husband who had to have emergency brain surgery and during his recovery period. She told me with some irritation that the Palestinian patients actually had precedence over Israeli patients.

When a group of Palestinian patients would arrive, and this was a daily occurence, they would be treated first, while the locals had to wait till they were finished, even if they had already been waiting quite some time beforehand.

Si,N

Spasms abyss! Shock as Israeli Doctor treats Palestinian patient!!

Meanwhile, back at the coalface, ‘everyday’ gunpeople from the Israeli occupation forces (the children of people who love their children more than they hate Arabs…er, or something) do what gunpeople do.

29.09.2000 – 31.8.2008, 950 Palestinian children killed by Israeli occupation forces.

1. Hadil 'Abd al-Karim Suliman a-Samayri - 6 year-old - killed on 11.06.2008 in al-Qarara, Rafah district, by gunfire, from a tank.
2. Aya Hamdan Hamdan a-Najar - 8 year-old - killed on 05.06.2008 in Khuza'a, Khan Yunis district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
3. Ibrahim Farid Mahmoud Madi - 17 year-old - killed on 23.05.2008 next to Sufah Checkpoint, Rafah district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
4. Hussein 'Abd al-Karim Ramadan Ahel - 15 year-old - killed on 22.05.2008 next to Karni Checkpoint, Gaza district, by gunfire.
5. Khaled 'Abd a-Nasser Mahmoud 'Abd al-Hadi - 17 year-old - injured on 11.04.2008 by gunfire, from a helicopter, and died on 21.05.2008.
6. Majd Ziad Muhammad 'Okal - 11 year-old - killed on 20.05.2008 by gunfire, from a helicopter.
7. Ahmad Jum'ah Muhammad Muwaded - 17 year-old killed on 15.05.2008 in Gaza city, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
8. Ibrahim Hassan Ibrahim Salahah - 17 year-old - killed on 14.05.2008 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire.
9. Muntasser Muhammad Juma'h Abu 'Anza - 16 year-old injured on 07.05.2008 in 'Abasan al-Jadida (a-Saghira), Khan Yunis district, by gunfire, and died on 11.05.2008.
10. Sami Jamil 'Abd al-'Aziz Abu 'Anza - 16 year-old injured on 07.05.2008 in 'Abasan al-Jadida (a-Saghira), Khan Yunis district, by gunfire, and died on 08.05.2008
11. Mus'ad Ahmad 'Eid Abu Me'tiq - Under 1 year-old - killed on 28.04.2008 in Beit Hanun, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
12. Hanaa Ahmad 'Eid Abu Me'tiq - 2 year-old - killed on 28.04.2008 in Beit Hanun, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
13. Saleh Ahmad 'Eid Abu Me'tiq - 4 year-old - killed on 28.04.2008 in Beit Hanun, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
14. Ruwaydah Ahmad 'Eid Abu Me'tiq - 5 year-old - killed on 28.04.2008 in Beit Hanun, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter..
15. Maryam Tal'at Mustafa M'aruf - 14 year-old - killed on 26.04.2008 in Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, by gunfire..
16. Bilal Sa'ed 'Ali a-Dahini - 17 year-old injured on 16.04.2008 in Juhor a-Dik, Gaza district, by gunfire, from a tank, and died on 20.04.2008.
17. Ahmad 'Abd al-Majid Hassan a-Najar - 16 year-old - injured on 16.04.2008 in Juhor a-Dik, Gaza district, by gunfire, from a tank, and died on 20.04.2008.
18. Muhammad Zaki Muhammad al-Masri - 17 year-old - killed on 17.04.2008 in Jabalya, North Gaza district, by gunfire.
19. Muhammad Muhammad 'Abd al-Khaleq al-'Asar - 14 year-old - Nuseirat Camp, Deir al-Balah district, killed on 16.04.2008 in Juhor a-Dik, Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
20. Bayan Samir Mahmoud al-Khaldi - 13 year-old - Deir al-Balah district, killed on 16.04.2008 in Juhor a-Dik, Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
21. 'Abdallah Maher Muhsein Abu Khalil - 15 year-old killed on 16.04.2008 in Juhor a-Dik, Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
22. Talhah Hani Fathi Abu 'Ali - 14 year-old - killed on 16.04.2008 in Juhor a-Dik, Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
23. Ghassan Khaled Salamah Abu 'Ateiwi - 12 year-old - killed on 16.04.2008 in Juhor a-Dik, Gaza district, by gunfire, from a tank.
24. Islam Husam 'Ali al-'Esawi - 15 year-old - killed on 16.04.2008 in Juhor a-Dik, Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
25. Ahmad 'Aref Frajallah Frajallah - 13 year-old - killed on 16.04.2008 in Juhor a-Dik, Gaza district, by gunfire, from a tank.
26. Tareq Farid Jamil Abu Taqeyyah - 15 year-old - killed on 16.04.2008 in Juhor a-Dik, Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
27. Diaa' 'Aish Yusef al-'Awawdeh - 14 year-old - killed on 11.04.2008 in al-Bureij Refugee Camp, Deir al-Balah district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
28. Yusef 'Ali Salamah al-Maghari - 16 year-old - killed on 11.04.2008 in al-Bureij Refugee Camp, Deir al-Balah district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
29. Yusef Ibrahim Muhammad Sarhan - 14 year-old - killed on 11.04.2008 in al-Bureij Refugee Camp, Deir al-Balah district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
30. Riad Sharif Muhammad al-'Awessi - 11 year-old - killed on 11.04.2008 in al-Bureij Refugee Camp, Deir al-Balah district, by gunfire, from a tank.
31. Ahmad Nasser Shhadeh al-Gharabli - 15 year-old - killed on 09.04.2008 in Gaza city, by gunfire, from a tank
32. Bilal 'Abd Rabo Mussa al-Astal - 16 year-old - killed on 28.03.2008 in al-Qarara, Rafah district, by gunfire.
33. Tammer Ra'id Mahmoud Dawas - 16 year-old - killed on 28.03.2008 in Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, by gunfire.
34. Amirah Khaled Faraj Abu 'Aser - Under 1 year-old - killed on 04.03.2008 next to al-Qarara, Rafah district, by gunfire
35. Muhammad 'Imad Fa'iq Hlewah - 15 year-old - killed on 02.03.2008 in Jabalya, North Gaza district, by gunfire.
36. Lu'ai Jamal Farhat Jendeyeh - 17 year-old - killed on 02.03.2008 in Jabalya, North Gaza district, by gunfire
37. 'Abd a-Rahim Muhammad 'Abd al-Fatah Saleh - 16 year-old - killed on 02.03.2008 in Jabalya, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a tank.
38. Lu'ai Isma'il Ibrahim Taha - 15 year-old - killed on 02.03.2008 in Jabalya, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
39. Isma'il 'Arafat Mustafa Abu Sultan - 17 year-old - killed on 01.03.2008 in Jabalya, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter..
40. Ahmad Muhammad 'Abd al-Qader Rian - 17 year-old - killed on 01.03.2008 in Jabalya, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
41. Salsabil Majed Muhammad Abu Jalhum - 2 year-old killed on 01.03.2008 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
42. Mahmoud Bassam A'bed 'Obeid - 15 year-old killed on 01.03.2008 in Jabalya, North Gaza district, by gunfire.
43. Muhammad 'Abd al-Qader Hassan 'Aqilan - 17 year-old killed on 01.03.2008 in Jabalya, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
44. Na'el Zuheir Shukri Abu 'On - 12 year-old - killed on 01.03.2008 in Jabalya, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a tank..
45. Mahmoud Nayef Hamtu Haneideq - 16 year-old - killed on 01.03.2008 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
46. Safa Ra'd 'Ali Abu Seif - 11 year-old - killed on 01.03.2008 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire..
47. Mahmoud Na'im Ahmad al-'Attar - 17 year-old - killed on 01.03.2008 in Jabalya, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
48. 'Abd a-Ra'uf 'Abd al-Karim Mahmoud 'Odeh - 16 year-old - killed on 01.03.2008 in Jabalya, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a tank.
49. Salwa Zidan Muhammad Ghali 'Asaliyah - 13 year-old - killed on 01.03.2008 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.
50. Khaled Munther 'Abd al-Qader Rian - 16 year-old - killed on 01.03.2008 in Jabalya, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter.

Seems it's not scorpions, but guns, helicopters, and tanks that Palestinian children need fear.

But never mind the ‘everyday’ reality of the murderous ‘everyday’ occupation in Palestine – what we really need to know is; was the scorpion Israeli or Palestinian?

David McAdam

50 - 1? Typical unshakeable anti-Israeli response devoid of empirical evidence. It is also symptomatic of a view that steadfastly chooses to ignore an Arab's genuine appeal for peace.

Joe Camel

This coming Monday, the first day of Ramadan, Palestinians at home in the afternoon for breaking their fast were expected to be a captive audience for the first episode of the first-ever soap opera produced by the Palestine Broadcasting Corporation (PBC), called Matabb (Arabic for "speed bump").
But at the last moment the programme has been either postponed or cancelled, reports say, because the Palestinian authorities were afraid that “certain scenes failed to show the Israeli occupation in a negative enough light,” according to a news item in Haaretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1018539.html

Adam B.

SiN,
Two can play at your game.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm

Adam B.

Bob, still waiting for your evidence, or an apology.

Si,N

Cheers for that - everybody, follow the link provided by Adam B for more victims of the 'everyday' occupation.

phil

Does the bufoon known as SI,N have the statistics of innocent Israelis murdered by the Palestinians .on purpose (btw)-I am talking about women and children S.in not soldiers -both you and latchford give balance to this thread by showing the hate and lies that emanate from your side of the fence so maybe we should be grateful .your sick mentalities will never achieve peace,but perhaps you do not want it anyway .

Bill Corr

One young Palestinian lady, cruelly burned in a domestic accident, returned repeatedly to Israel for medical treatment.

Eventually she was caught at a checkpoint wearing a concealed suicide belt and headed for what the learned Yvonne Ridley calls a 'martyrdom operation'.

She told her questioners that she was hoping to kill and maim as many Jewish doctors, nurses and patients as possible.

This appalling tale is 100% true and not an episode of the uncut Monty Python archive as scripted by Joe Orton.

Jicama

Sorry Si,N -- that stuff you're quoting is not truth but propoganda. I too could make up a list of names, and causes of death, if I was as good a fiction writer as your source!

Adam B.

SiN, they are victims of Palestinian terrorism.

Adam B.

SiN, I'm still waiting for your response about Jewish refugees from Arab lands, Palestinian terrorism (which deliberately targets civilians), and the racism in the charters of Hamas and Hizbollah.

Nachman

Si,n or whatever you call your anti-semitic self if the Arabs would have made peace all those children would be alive today. Unfortunatrely they do not want peace or even to recognise Israel's right to exist and therefore rely on useful idiots such as your goodself to publish the deaths of children as some kind of falacious argument that somehow more dead means more right. Hamas look upon the number of their dead children not as something to mourn but as great publicity on the other hand the Jews wring their hands in despair. The difference being that Israel goes out of its way to reduce fatalities and Hamas and people like you rejoice in the number of dead - the more the better!

Si,N

Bill Corr - please provide evidence - like, the lady's name??

Jicama, like you said, you could make something up and I don't doubt that you will. Meantime, please demonstrate that what I wrote above is fiction.

You'll be wasting time - all the children I mentioned are real - at least they were - murderous Israeli occupation forces killed them with guns and tanks. It's all part of the 'everyday' occupation.

Previous poster, stats for the 123 Israeli children killed in the same period as the 950 Palestinian children can be found here:
http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

- go ahead and check - you too Jicama - they're all victims of the 'everyday' occupation.

Adam B. you can blow smoke as much as you like - I'll not attend to it.

Si,N

Nachman, yours is just a load of racist twaddle. Run along silly melunit.

Adam B.

SIN, talking about Palestinian terrorism, or Jewish refugees (more numerous than Arab refugees), or the hate charters of Hamas and Hizbollah is NOT smoke. It's real, and you have consistently refused to address these issues, despite my addressing the accusations you repeatedly hurl around. It's easy to have the conversation all your own way, isn't it? Why don't you address these issues, what are you afraid of? There is simply no engaging with you, because you are motivated by HATE. This thread is about how Israeli doctors and nurses attend to and heal Palestinians EVERY DAY (not as a one off as you flippantly suggest, with your very silly comments about the scorpion). But for you, none of this matters, because when Israel is clearly doing something good, as demonstrated here, all you come up with is more HATE. For you, Israel can do no right, ever. That's not a discussion, it's merely you expressing your inexhaustible hatred. Why should anyone listen to anything you have to say until you begin to address the concerns of others?

Adam B.

Bob, where are you hiding?

Harvey

Si N

Names, numbers . A futile exercise in the blame game . At the height of the Intifada ,Palestinian homicide bombers were crossing the border with impunity in order to deliberately target and murder innocent Israeli citizens .Buses ,shopping malls, restaurants . Yeshiva students gunned down as they study .All fair game .Your post, as the myriad of posts emnating from the left /Islamist amalgam lacks the all important requirement ie context .

Without the Palestinian terror ,there would be no retaliation and no collateral damage .

Do you not understand that for every action there is a reaction . Are you really so surprised and indeed indignant that Israel should have the temerity of striking back at its mortal enemies .An enemy which incidentally is utterly transparent in its stated objective of destroying the Jewish state .

No terror apparatus , no retaliation = no death of innocents.

I suggest you attempt to re evaluate your message and try to apply a degree of context to this seemingly intractable problem . In order to do this you need to leave your prejudices behind and resist bleating the same tired old 'victim 'mantra . Sadly I fear this may be a little beyond you.

YossiUK

Si,N The name of the girl mentioned by Bill Corr is Wafa Samir Ibrahim al-Biss. She was send by Fatah's Al Aqsa brigades, and the plan was for her to blow herself up at Soroka Hospital in Be'er Sheva where she was receiving treatment for burns she acquired due to a gas tank explosion in her home.

I understand that as you are into the numbers game, and intentionality is not all that important to you, you will just dismiss this attempted atrocity.

field

Alcuin -

Not sure why you are shuddering so much.

Had Thatcher failed we would have had an Alliance government of Liberals and SDP.

There have been various shades of government in Western Europe. There have been moments of near revolution like France in 1968.

We are all pretty much of a muchness now.

Perhaps there are bigger forces at work?

I'm not one prepared to elevate Margaret "I Closed 3000 Grammar Schools and Took Away Free Milk From Children" Thatcher to sainthood.

For me the one quote I always recall is when she said that had Labour won the next general election in 78, they were going to create trust funds for their children to emigrate. Some patriot!

George Alexander

Si,N - here is the evidence for you: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+and+Islamic+Fundamentalisg-/Attack+by+female+suicide+bomber+thwarted+at+Erez+crossing€Jun-2005.htm
Her name is Wafa Samir Ibrahim al-Biss.

Ann

"The simple truth is that if Israel were not deliberately targeting the humanitarian supply of much needed shoes and socks and inner soles, those two children - as well as countless others - would not have had to go barefoot"

Ignorant antisemites are more venomous than scorpions - and this is a perfect example.

Ann

Sin screeches:
"yours is just a load of racist twaddle"

You couldn't make it up.

Ann

"Took Away Free Milk From Children"

To the ranting Thatcher haters, this mantra is like some divine invocation. 'Free milk' is not a god-given right.

Ann

"Israeli occupation forces"

This screeching, spittle-flecked nonsense tells us all we need to know about you. Gaza is not 'occupied'; but the murderous shelling of Israeli civilians goes on.

Adam B.

Sin, do you know how many innocent German children were killed in the Second World War? (Answer: Far more than British children). In your parallel universe, no doubt Germany was the innocent victim of Allied occupation.

stanley Jerusalem

Imshin Israel - Really, such naievity!
Queue jumping is an Israeli National Sport. When did you arrive here?

Matthew Blott

I'm an ardent critic of Islamism alogn with Islamic terrorism (although more insightful analysis will tell you not all Palestinian terrorism is Islamist based) but unlike Ms Phillips I am not dogmatic. Thus I am able to put the example provided by Ms Phillips in its proper context as "Si,N" demonstrates. I'm sure there Israeli medical services were sincere and it was not simply a publicity stunt but saving one child doesn't amount to much in the wider scheme of things. Phillips just needs to take off her rose tinted glasses when it comes to defending Israel and name calling anyone who disagrees with her as appeasers or anti-Zionists.

john doe

Rene Ragetli: I assume and hope you mean the ARAB 'Occupied Territories' of Gaza, Judea and Samaria.

La Cumparsita

Unlike most of the commentators here, I have visited this hospital in Afula and seen for myself that co-existence & co-operation between Arabs & Jews is possible and works. The pateitns & medical staff are approximately 50-50 Arab/Jewish Israelis, while many Palestinians from the West Bank are also treated. At the height of the intifada, the hospital was also treating wounded Arab terrorists a few feet away from the soldeirs who had been fighting them. I have met the Head of Paediatrics, a charming Israeli Arab doctor. A visit to Ha'Emek Medical Centre offers a complete refutation of the false accusation made by Israel's misguided & ignorant critics of an "apartheid" society. take a look at their webiste & learn http://www.clalit.org.il/haemek/defaulteng.asp

Imshin

Imshin Israel - Really, such naievity!
Queue jumping is an Israeli National Sport. When did you arrive here?

So, Stanley, those machines that dispense little pieces of paper with numbers on them -- they haven't made their way from Tel Aviv up to Jerusalem yet?

Richard

Well, my dear. That is because the Western media are largely either anti-semitic or crowd followers who never check their facts.

stanley Jerusalem

Yes Imshin, we do have the lottery in Jerusalem.
So what?

Andy Gill

Of course the mainstream media won't publish this kind of story. It's run by people like Bob Latchford who prefer to make up facts that fit their agenda, than report facts that don't.

Adam B.

Bob, your silence is deafening! Could it be that you realise you haven't a leg to stand on?

BJ

From June 2007 June 2008 PCHR documented the deaths of 40 Gazan patients including 13 women and 9 children. They died because they could not obtain the permits from Israel to leave Gaza for the medical treatment which is unavailable at home due to the blockade.

Bob Latchford is of course, right, as usual.

BJ

And it is also worth noting that Melanie Phillips denies the national identity of the father. He is of course a Palestinian.

Murad Adam

To The west Media:
Be sincere and tell the truth without shame or fear. Enough telling us that you are balanced and honest. Say positive things if you see them in China, Cuba, Russia, Israel or anywhere else. Say the truth about Georgia, Yogoslavia and Turkey. But Alas. That won't happen. A person living in Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Syria will never discover how twisted and unconscionable the Western media is until they come and live in these Western Countries, as they have been doing in droves since 1970s.

patricia

Yes, good news indeed.

But thereagain, how many Palestinian children have been killed by Israeli rokets and bullets over the last 10 years?

Remind me.

Jeremy Poynton

Venomous West? Venomous turncoat Phillips more like. She's a class one for statistics fudging, like Ms. Pollyanna Toynbee. Half the story is only ever half the story, whoever the byline belongs to.

Si, N

To those offering clarifications on Wafa Samir Ibrahim al-Biss thank you. It's tragic - but sadly yet more symptoms of the 'everyday' occupation of Palestinian land by Israeli 'everyday' occupation forces (the children of people who teach their children to hate and kill more Arabs than they love themselves…er, or something).

Remember - Israel was founded on an ethnically cleansed land.

Harvey, you seem to exist in a bizarre unreality where cause and effect are inverted - please run along and waste someone else's time - silly melunit.

Adam B., you are just plain odd - 'innocent German children'?? - do you mean to say that in your view there were 'guilty' German children? Not that such an assertion would surprise me coming from the likes of you. Historic/documentary evidence demonstrates that there was a compelling need to confront Nazi Germany - though much of the civilian death could and should have been avoided. Likewise, all sensible historic/documentary evidence pertaining to the Palestine/Israel issue, when handled by impartial people, shows clearly that Israel is the prime aggressor. Sadly, through the efforts of the likes of Phillip's and here hordes of brain-dead heartless melunits the historic/documentary evidence is warped out recognition. That's why saps such as you latch onto unusual stories like this involving the scorpion and present it as a norm whilst ignoring the overwhelming evidence which shows the barbarism of the Israel project. You whinge on about my wanting to debate on my terms - again I say, TOUGH - you have zilch jurisdiction over me and I'll not be harried.
Ann, you've fallen off your perch again.

michael

You said it S'in.

Adam B.

Sin, you don't engage with these issues (Palestinian terrorism, Jewish refugeesfrom Arab countries, and the racist charters of Hamas and Hizbollah) because you can't - you are literally left speechless in the face of them. Let me clarify, due to the poverty of your intellect. There were no guilty German children, that's the whole point. You make Israel out to be the aggressor because innocent Palestinian children have been killed, as if this fact alone, without context, proves your entire case. Following your own logic, Britain must have been the aggressor in WWII, as innocent German children were killed. I can't really put it in simpler terms for a simple mind. Are you incapable of understanding context or intent? Let's talk about ethnic cleansing, shall we? Once, not so long ago, a quarter of Baghdad was Jewish. Now, I believe there is not one single Jew left living there. In Israel, almost a quarter of the population is Arab. How does this tally with your baseless charge of the Arabs being ethnically cleansed? If they were ethnically cleansed, the Israelis can't be very good at it, considering the Arab population continues to grow. Contrast to the demise of Jewish populations in the Islamic world. In case you hadn't noticed, most of the Islamic world is not prone to pluralism or freedom. Contrast with Israel's vigorous democracy (the Prime Minister is about to be indicted - imagine one other coluntry in the region where such a thing would be possible, just one!)and Israel's pluralism. You're just FULL of HATE!

Adam B.

Patricia, how many Sudanese children have been killed with the support of the Arab league in the last ten years? Remind me - I bet you haven't a clue.

Groovy Times

To SiN

The beauty of Israeli sovereignty is that YOU have zilch jurisdiction over the Jews, which really gets your goat dosn't it? Otherwise you would be diverting some of your precious time to other just causes, such as emancipation for women in Saudi Arabia campaigning against child executions in Iran, or alleviating poverty amongst the millions upon millions of untouchables in India - yes they still exist even if officially not by that name. Or the Coptic Christians living on rubbish dumps in Egypt, or shedding some crocodile tears for the millions of dead and maimed in the Congo. And by the way, I'd rather be a party to the 'Zionist project' than the barbaric legacy of you morally superior Europeans - isn't it terrible when you have a colonial itch like Israel that you just can't scratch?

charles soper

To all the haters of Israel two simple questions:

A/ What happens to Palestinians who advocate non-violent negotiations with Israel?
B What happens to Israelis who advocate non-violent negotiations with Palestinians?

Two possible answers for both:
1. They get lynched as collaborators.
2. They get funded by the EU and human rights groups as peacemakers.

Answers on a postcard please to BBC Worldservice, Bush House, London.

James Hodson

I admittedly state that I have made a real fool of myself recently in mailing Melanie with a couple of songs that had nothing at all to do with much at all.

But, I have had the decency to re-mail her (twice, indeed), to say sorry.

Those who post hereabouts who are one the "left" side of life do not seem able to even able to consider that they may not necessarily be correct.

James - merely one who is prepared to listen

john doe

Adam B: That's good, very good. I admire your tenacity in dealing with the morons on here with their repugnant venom and wilful ignorance. And you are right to focus on the plight of Jewish refugees from Arab lands, who amount to almost a million people.

Steven Boldovitch

Melanie:
This isn't a comment but a question.
What is the pervasive reaction in Britain to the Dispatches documentary on Islam?

Steven Boldovitch

field

"Adam B. says:

Patricia, how many Sudanese children have been killed with the support of the Arab league in the last ten years? Remind me - I bet you haven't a clue."

Don't expect an answer any time soon. If there is one thing Israel-haters dislike, it is being asked to apply the same standards they apply to Isreal to other countries.

One tends to find posters evaporate into thin air when challenged in this way.

Alan Bernson

Bob Latchford says:
Ms Phillips, for every 1 of these, there are 50 who die because of Israeli checkpoints preventing them from reaching their very own medical facil-ities

Mr. Latchford I have two questions: You fail to mention that the checkpoints are there to keep out Palestinians who want to enter Israel to bomb and murder Jews.

You say for one Palestinian it saves Israel kills 50 Palestinians.

Well, thats a lot better than the Palestinian score which is zero Jews saved for ever 50 Jews murdered.

phil

Adam B ,you bring it on yourself by replying to these appalling people -why ? do you think you will get any sense from the nutter known as sin .all that has happened is that michael and patricia have crawled out from under their stones to be joined by other equally horrific posters who just lie to wind you up -up to this moment in time the last 7 posters have only spat out hate here on a thread about saving the life of a child , and even started by the inestimable bob himself -from your posts Adam you always appear a decent human being so I ask, as I have before, why mix with these awful people ?-If you reply can you tell me what a melunit is ,he only ever refers to me as pp (previous poster)-you know like a low life that cannot look you in the eye -regards to you.

phil

Adam B .in case of any misunderstanding I totally support your views and admire your energy -I just think it is wasted on the haters who will never change their ways -you reply with dignity which is not always the way on these threads and receive stupid insults in return -my suggestion is just ignore them they will eventually get fed up.

George

Si,N,

I'm not sure why I bother answering you, as you seem incapable of listening, but I'll give it a try.
About the instance of Wafa Samir Ibrahim al-Biss, you state "It's tragic - but sadly yet more symptoms of the 'everyday' occupation of Palestinian land by Israeli 'everyday' occupation forces (the children of people who teach their children to hate and kill more Arabs than they love themselves…er, or something)."
I served in the IDF, and my two sons are currently serving as officers in a combat unit. Believe me, I didn't educate them to hate and kill any human being for any reason. Nor did the parents of their friends. You have absolutely no idea whatsoever about what you are talking about, so I suggest that after you have apologised to me you go somewhere else.

Si, N

George, I will continue to post comments here as regular as I see fit - the comments will largely be concerned with Israel's illegal occupation of Palestinian land - I will at times mention the fact that Israel was founded on land ethnically cleansed of Arabs - I will refer to Israeli occupation forces also.

If you don't want to be exposed to such comments I suggest that you 'go somewhere else'.

As for your demanding an apology - dream on - you don't have the whip hand here and this is not one of your checkpoints.

phil

George ,neither did he say what those teenagers were doing when ,if as he alleges ,they were killed or injured -not firing guns or rockets by any chance?

Ronnie

I simply wonder if, taking a step back, we could put ourselves in the place of the saved boy's father and appreciate just what this is really all about?

No mangled statistics, murderously competing versions of history, ludicrous justifications and facile arithmetic, white noise or mutual yelling over heads. Merely the simple fact of a young life saved by fellow human beings.

Is it so difficult now?

Adam B.

Phil and John Doe, thanks for your kind words. I know very well that the likes of Sin, Patricia and michael will not consider anything I, or you, have to say. They are wedded to their hatred, it is how they view the world. They define themselves by their hate, it is in fact an obsession, otherwise they wouldn't keep coming to the blog of a pro-Israel writer to spew forth their venom. The conversation is always a one way street and goes like this: hurl an accusation, then wait for the defence. When cornered, ignore it and make a completely new, unrelated accusation. When this too is dealt with through evidence, find another accusation, and round and round we go. When you turn the tables on them, and ask for their opinion about something negative on the Arab side of the conflict, they simply will not respond, as witnessed by Sin's repeated refusal to condemn Palestinian terrorism which deliberately targets civilians. I know all this. The reason I write is because when lies go unanswered, and are repeated often enough, they begin to be believed, and the discourse begins to take these lies for granted. They must always be opposed, so that people reading lies are given the real version of events as well. The filed mustn't be left open to them. That is why I write. Another reason is that I enjoy annoying such Jew haters (let's be honest, that's what they are). Believe me, I find insults from such twisted hateful people a compliment!

Adam B.

George, Sin clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. Walking in Tel Aviv last year on a weekend afternoon, Jews and Arabs were out having barbecues, laughing and enjoying themselves. Everyone was getting on and just enjoying being with their families. I remember thinking how abusrd were the accusations of the far left about Israel. I bet neither Sin, Patricia or michael have ever been to Israel, yet they present themselves as experts. You can't take any of them seriously.

Adam B.

Still no word from Bob I see. Perhaps he's emigrated.

phil

Well posters ,I think sin has proved my point -he will do and say what he wants regardless of the veracity of his news -I suppose we should all be proud of contributing to a column which lets everyone have his say-we should just consign his comments to a dustbin in the ether -the man if that is what he is ,is merely a fool, and should cause us no concern -George both you and your sons are worth a thousand of him .

Lynne T

Si, N
September 8th, 2008 2:11pm
To those offering clarifications on Wafa Samir Ibrahim al-Biss thank you. It's tragic - but sadly yet more symptoms of the 'everyday' occupation of Palestinian land by Israeli 'everyday' occupation forces (the children of people who teach their children to hate and kill more Arabs than they love themselves…er, or something).

Remember - Israel was founded on an ethnically cleansed land.

I see. That's why Yasser Arafat had to sell his people on giving their children up to martyrdom if they felt themselves too old and tired to do it themselves (while Suha Arafat and her daughter lived in luxury in Paris), and handed out cheques to the surviving (extended) family members, named streets and schools after the martyrs, postered walls with their images and had PATV broadcasting martyrdom tapes. I guess that's also why Hamas published an on-line magazine for kiddies that prepares them for battle to recover Al-Andalus from Spain. Yes, this phenomena is nothing but a natural outgrowth of the evil occupation by Israel, and not the cultivation of a death cult as it suits the purposes of various Muslim and non-Muslim Communist regimes that tyrannize and oppress their own populations with incredible brutality.

As for "ethnically cleansed land", as New Historian Benny Morris explained to the likes of Noam Chomsky who continually misread Morris, the only explanation for the lousy job Israel did of ethnically cleansing Israel was that they never intended to and, in fact, didn't. Most Palestinians fled the massacre promised by surrounding Arab armies and stayed in camps despite Israel's invitation that they return because that's where the Arab League wanted them, instead of settling them in Trans-Jordan (i.e. 82% of Mandatory Palestine) per the UN resolution that brought Israel into being.

Groovy Times

To Sin

I refer you to my previous comment about Israeli sovereignty - you don't have the whip hand there either and never will - and that is what drives your inverted morality and pomposity. You are livid that you just can't boss those bloody Jews about anymore and are so obsessed with the indignity of it that you have lost the ability to register real injustice the world over. Two-bit psychology this might be, but it will do for your transparent and one-dimensional crusade against Jewish oppression.

phil

Adam B at 7.18 -beautifully written ,in fact so well done I think I am a convert ,all that was missing was "Irest my case " lol.

You are of course right too about lack of answers ,I have written on many threads and they have run away -well we write her to persuade and I think you have persuaded me .regards phil

Juan Tebbit-Regglie

This is all a bit depressing, isn't it?

Ann

"Remember - Israel was founded on an ethnically cleansed land"

Stupid, ignorant and sickeningly demented antisemitic drivel.

Ann

"Israel's illegal occupation of Palestinian land"

And so is this ignorant, hysterical antisemitic drivel.

SI, N

Adam B., you are: incredible – a textbook obfuscator - a mangler of truth, and wilfully blind to injustice. That is why I ‘will not consider anything’ you or any other melunit ‘have to say’.

Yet again I will demonstrate why you’re such an obvious idiot.

You reckon that I:

‘hurl an accusation, then wait for the defence. When cornered, ignore it and make a completely new, unrelated accusation. When this too is dealt with through evidence, find another accusation, and round and round we go’.

Again reality is inverted. If you actually read my posts you’ll note that I make 1 point – that is - ‘it's not scorpions, but guns, helicopters, and tanks that Palestinian children need fear’. It seems to really upset you that I should intrude into a 'pro-Israel' blog - but you see I happen to think the fact that ‘it's not scorpions, but guns, helicopters, and tanks that Palestinian children need fear’ is a REALLY important point to make. The point I made is wholly relevant to the thread and I have not deviated from it.

In FACT it’s you who ACTUALLY makes ‘completely new, unrelated’ interjections:

German/English ‘innocent children’, ‘Jewish refugees from Arab lands’, ‘the racism in the charters of Hamas and Hizbollah’, ’Sudanese children’. There’s quite a list. Add in the ‘unrelated accusations’ from other melunits and the original point is lost in a quagmire of obfuscation - & you’re right, we go ‘round and round’. You never sought to address the relevant point - certainly there’s no evidence of your having ‘dealt with through evidence’ my point at all. No, just ‘ignore’, lie, and deny. In fact,the usual smoke blowing – and no I don’t think that Sudan, or any other human-made misery, is a trivial matter – I just think it’s obscene when those miseries are invoked to either justify or deflect attention away from the barbarism of the illegal ‘everyday’ occupation of Palestinian lands by Israeli ‘everyday’ occupation forces.

Bleat on...

phil

Adam I see eventually the bufoon has written to you again and once more ignores the points that are made to him ,but he always does ,doesnt he ?-I wrote thus to George and no doubt the incredible one read it but has chosen to bury what passes for his/her head yet again

"George ,neither did he say what those teenagers were doing when ,if as he alleges ,they were killed or injured -not firing guns or rockets by any chance?"

He likes to refer to us as melunits ,well its different at least to being called pp(previous poster )but do you know what one is:) please enlighten me -well its been a busy morning for writing so I will try to seek the sun now before stanislav starts counting my posts again lol regards

Groovy Times

To Sin

We get the point of the destructive and lethal nature of the IDF's hardware, but we don't need to be patronised by you - as if we have no understanding of the conflict or the fact that lives are lost.
What we ask you to do is put that conflict into a wider historical and political context.
Yes, Melanie Phillips is partisan and we appreciate her ability to articulate many or our own feelings towards Israel, just as you do when you read the paper of you choice. But do you think we are unaware of the Palestinian narrative? That until your evangelical quest to show us the light and redeem us from our wicked pro-Zionist world view we had never heard an anti-Israeli argument or considered the moral or political implications of Israeli control over the West Bank?
So be honest with yourself - and with us Sin, why does Israel mean so much to you that you feel compelled to write here? Is your criticism of Israel relative to the time you spend on other just causes, or is it just the Zionists that are deserving of your apbrobrium?
We think your arguments smack of double standards and you harbour anti-Semitic tendencies because you place a premium on the Palestinian tragedy. That is why we barrate you over your concern for their children, not because those children don't matter, but because we get the feeling that for you, nobody else matters unless they are victims of the Jews.

Ann

Groovy, those obsessive antisemites simply have screws loose somewhere.

Adam B.

Phil, hope you enjoyed the sunshine! I have no idea what a melunit is, I suppose by labelling us as such, Sin can pigeonhole us all as being the same and avoid listening to (and responding to)an argument which upsets his twisted worldview. I think Groovy puts it very well.

Groovy Times

Thanks Adam. Sin is conspicuous by his absence, but perhaps this is already old news, or maybe his talents are being put to good use in another of the world's troublespots where his balanced scrutiny, considered criticisms, military expertise and moral superiority are sorely needed.

phil

Groovy ,si n is just following his pattern of throwing his barbs ,shouting insults ,never responding to any intellectual challenge and disappearing-we should expect nothing better then we will not be disappointed .