Deeper into the trap

kondratif

The issue is preemption. McCain's message was that he would, but Obama's is that he won't. If not we will likely face a broadened nuclear race in the middle east, with an enormous pressure against Israel to denuclearize.

Conservative Cabbie

Melanie said:

"or will remain true to his radical past?"

I say follow the money. Look to his campaign contributions (and I'm not talking about the millions in illegal foreign contributions that he got). Far left groups like Moveon.org, Huffington Post and Daily Kos paid for Obama to get to the Whitehouse, they will want their pieces of meat in return. He will try to retain as much independence as possible, throwing them a bone from time to time (Guantanamo) but the leftisit will lust for more and more. Restraint is not a leftist value.

Byron in Wahroonga

How far has America fallen, in that Iran (popn 66m, GDP $294 billion) now has the upper hand in negotiating with the USA (pop 303m, GDP $13.8 trillion) - all because Iran's leaders have a stronger belief in their destiny?

Herbert Thornton

It seems to me that there are several sorts of trap. One is a trap of the nuclear sort and if any country is in danger of being caught in Iran's nuclear trap it is Israel. The consequences of that hardly bear thinking about, beyond reflecting on Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yu's description of Singapore's policy of ensuring its security by being what he called a "poisonous shrimp". Israel is of course a rather large shrimp, but unfortunately there are many fanatics in the Islamic world who would eagerly try to swallow the shrimp no matter what the consequences for themselves.

The U.S. is in a different position. It is already caught in a trap - but of a different kind. It is the trap of dependency, for virtually all its energy needs, on foreign oil, at prices that are unreliable, often extortionate, and likely to become moreso - so much so that the nation's lifeblood - dollars - are haemorrhaging on a scale that is bleeding the nation to death.

The only way for the U.S. to get out of the oil trap is to implement a massive programme to switch from oil to nuclear-generated electricity, using nuclear power. What Obama's policy on this will be is not yet clear, but such indications as I have seen suggest that Obama is likely to pursue alternatives to oil and those I should think must include nuclear power generation.

None of this is comforting for Israel, but I would hesitate to describe an American switch to nuclear powered electricty as appeasing America's enemies. Indeed I would think it tend to decrease the malignant influence of the Middle East and extremists like Hugo Chavez over the rest of the world.

This of course will be of little comfort to Israel if Iran does get the nuclear weapons that it plans to use against the Jewish State.

Bearing in mind that the U.S. and any European allies it may have are entering a new Great Depression, Israel may indeed have to face up to being alone - and to decide how it must act.

Roy

Another clear sighted assessment of the fast moving up to the minute global power movements and leadership effecting the free world.

Barackobama

The US can't win with Iran. If it fails to follow up its tough talk, it will look weak. But attacking Iran will cause problems for US allies in the Middle East, and Iraq-style domestic political blowback, without necessarily changing anything in Iran.

Mladen Andrijasevic

Why is it that politicians who concoct these “peace processes” which blow up not in their faces but in our, are never held accountable for their failures? Imagine if there were a law requiring that with every consecutive failure the fine would increase and the relevant author of the failed peace plan would be held personally accountable for the debacle. Let’s say that the first three attempts are considered reasonable and therefore exempt, but that for all subsequent ones the price of failure would be $100000 and rising linearly with each attempt. ( A geometric progression with the fine doubling every time is also an idea to be considered since it would wake up the peace dreamers much faster). For example, by now, after Oslo I, Oslo II, Taba, Wye, Tenet, Mitchell, Zinni, Sharm El-Sheikh, Roadmap, Annapolis, the price would be $800000. I have no doubts that with the fine hovering over their pockets politicians would either head for the libraries to educate themselves on why all previous attempts failed, or abandon experimenting with our lives altogether.

Jimbo

Melanie, I applaud your cogent analysis of things political...it is really refreshing in the new "weakened" politically correct and racially over-sensitive Obamanation.

Israel and America have both lived in luxurious times which allowed luxurious political philosophies to flourish. That time is rapidly coming to an end. This is where the rubber meets the road.

When a people are in survival mode, we tend to cast off superfulous idealism and focus on the necessary. Liberals around the world are about to get their noses rubbed in Obamamania, the mess on the floor.

They will be singing a different tune as, we the vanquished, smile quite smugly at their dillema and astonished shame.

David

"the election of Obama is a signal of American weakness. "

It is of course no such thing. If anything, the presidency that gave us the human rights aberration was weak-scared to the point of giving up those things the terrorists hate the most about the US.

Obama appears far more certain about America's position in the world as a beacon of rights. He's not going to give them up at the behest of a bunch of terrorists.

Andre

The US can't win with Iran? Yes we can! Iran’s avowed aim is to wipe out the state of Israel. US foreign policy must be based on the premise that a nuclear Iran will explode a device off the Israeli coast and then launch a ground war. Iran will then explode nuclear bombs in America and in Britain. Far fetched? Just read their web sites. Make no mistake about this. The war the west is engaged in is a war against Islamist fundamentalism; a cohesive aggregation of terror and theologists intend on visiting upon the world a sharia style dictatorship. No peace process in the middle east will ever work until the Arabs cast out the fundamentalists and accept the right of the Israeli state to exist. There are no concessions that will please Hamas or Fatah, Iran or Syria. I believe Obama understands this and will prove far more calculating than Bush. Put bluntly regime change in Teheran and Damascus has to be his immediate aim. If this is a war of ideas then the imperatives of liberty and personal freedom that inform Obama’s ultimate realisation of the American dream will prove a far more powerful rallying call than the crazed theocracies of the east.

Geoff M

Jimbo (Nov 12 8:41)- you are so right!

I am going to sit back and enjoy the ride. No longer do we need concern ourselves with the argument. The people (or should I say the Media) have decided.

I for one will not lift a finger as it all plays out.

Daily I expect a recall from my Territorial Regiment, the Mercians, and despite my allegiance to them I will take pleasure in refusing to fight for New Labour or the Obamaniacs.

I will look to my own as they will look to me. Let the liberals don a uniform - that should be a laugh.

I know my life and civilisation is threatened by Islam and the liberals are their best weapon.

We need to just turn our backs, frustrate their actions and criticise and complain about everything - use their methods against them.

John C.

"David
November 12th, 2008 8:57am

"the election of Obama is a signal of American weakness. "

It is of course no such thing. If anything, the presidency that gave us the human rights aberration was weak-scared to the point of giving up those things the terrorists hate the most about the US.

Obama appears far more certain about America's position in the world as a beacon of rights. He's not going to give them up at the behest of a bunch of terrorists."

Sir, it is my greatest hope that you are correct.

It is my deepest fear that you are not.

Rick Bonsteel

The biggest problem is that Obama is a certifiable megalomaniac who thinks he stands athwart history. Have we ever before been subjected to almost nonstop communiques from "The Office of the President-Elect"?

David

"It is my deepest fear that you are not."

Well, since Obama seems determined to close down Gitmo, I'd say your hopes are one up at the moment.

"Have we ever before been subjected to almost nonstop communiques from "The Office of the President-Elect"?"

This is really the first normal transition period of the new media era.
The last one was 2000, whcih was truncated massively due to Florida. Prior to that, we had Clinton 92, which was a disaster, since he dithered about which essentially ruined his first 6 months.

This seems to be a reaction to that and an attempt to ensure the ground is hit running. Seems sensible.

Frankp

"This seems to be a reaction to that and an attempt to ensure the ground is hit running. Seems sensible." (David)

Aye! And are we allowed to ROFL as the spindly legs of the Trojan Obambi buckle under the rough terrain ahead and the weight of the innumerable fellow travellers in his belly. Promises, promises! Dream on, you Obamites.

Problem is, it's no laughing matter.

Where are those now who accused our host of petulant absenteeism, sulking or slacking? As I guessed, there she was slogging and scheming on the ground and producing more shafts of light and questions that should be answered by those who have blithely enabled this oleaginous front man to gull a credulous electorate/expectorate. And while we have been amusing ourselves and abusing each other during this marathon US jamboree, the Islamic creep, oozing, spreading westwards and erupting in spurts within our own shores, inexorably and exponentially continues apace.

Mr Thornton makes some thought-provoking points, as indeed do most of the other posts above. My finger is already poised above the scroll key in preparation for the usual suspects from Team Troll.

Jill

Andre,

Obama is not more "calculating" than Bush when Obama keeps Bush's policies that European leaders designed intact with only one "change." That he will meet face-to-face with dictators and terrorists to be used by them for propaganda. Everybody around the world knows O is "weak on foreign policy." Adding Biden to the ticket did nothing to alter their minds. Biden was for your consumption.

Have you considered a military career? We're going to need naive O voters to take the place of Americans who leave the military.

Also, "American Dream" and Obama have nothing in common. American Dream is polar opposite of "spread the wealth." Liberty and personal freedom (individualism) are the dying calls of patriotic Americans facing extinction in national politics in a new socialist America of personal dependence, government management, and collectivism. Obama's rhetoric is straight from Karl Marx, and nobody on the O side cared.

Ellie

"Close Guantanamo", "beacon of rights" and so on.

Of course.

I mean, they love human rights in the Middle East, don't they?

It's not like they've been trying to destroy us for centuries. World history began with the tenure of George Bush. It's all his fault.

It's so easy to compromise with someone who believes: “Those who have disbelieved our signs, we shall roast them in fire. Whenever their skins are cooked to a turn, we shall substitute new skins for them, that they may feel the punishment; verily, Allah is sublime and wise.”

Nothing that can't be sorted out over a bowl of Ben & Jerry's.

What flavour, Mr Ahmadinejad?

David

"I mean, they love human rights in the Middle East, don't they? "

So, you want us to follow their lead? That's what they want.

"World history began with the tenure of George Bush. It's all his fault. "

I woudl say the things George Bush did are his fault. Gitmo was set up on his watch. His fault.

"It's so easy to compromise with someone"

Yes, which is exactly what Bush did. He compromised Western humanity in the face of terror. Which is exactly what these people want.

Someone who stands resolute for our rights against the slaughter strikes me as a far stronger and more courageous person.

John Birch

If the U.S. is restricted in its response to Iran it is because of the quagmire that is Iraq. It would be nice if Melenie Phillips would acknowledge the implications of a policy she supported. As for Iran, what impact do you think the dropping of the price of oil by over half is going to have on that country? It is a paper tiger, more a threat to its own people than anyone else.

John C.

David,

I read your comments and wish I were as upbeat. I really do hope everything works out fine.

But I have the sinking feeling that things are going to go very badly soon.

I just don't know.

Sue

If I did not have faith in the God of Israel, Whom they themselves have long foresaken, my heart would fail at this very insightful and well written piece by dear Melanie.

In the meantime, while waiting on the fulfillment of Biblical prophesies, I am calling all American conservatives...true conservatives, moderates need not apply.

Folks, If you are wondering what you can DO about the situation facing us in Washington now. Please check this out.

There's a serious contest going on in Georgia. There's to be a run off election on Dec. 2nd for the Senate seat in that state and the Dems. are all over it. Full story here: http://nationalrepublicantrust.com/ Please join this fight, please pass this information on to friends and family who share your concern for our beloved nation, and our freedoms.

Also here are two articles by Dick Morris that are superb rallying calls for what we all want to do:

http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/2008/11/06/an-election-that-the-republicans-needed-to-lose-%e2%80%94-good-luck-obama/#more-484

http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/

Join, Join, Join:
http://reaganaction.com
http://projectpatriotaction.ning.com
http://freedommarch.org
http://grassfire.com

Do you blog? Then blog about this, join the Patriot Revolution today!

Pedro Erik

It was terrible time for unexperienced US president period.

Brillant analysis, Melanie.

By the way, I suggest a name for Obama's dog: "Press".

All I read are newspapers wagging tails for Obama.

phil

JOHN C your address to David is one of the few sensible posts to have appeared in these columns for quite some time
"Sir, it is my greatest hope that you are correct.

It is my deepest fear that you are not."" the rounded amongst will echo those sentiments for we do not know and we can only exercise our judgement and hope we have been right .MY HAT OFF TO YOU SIR

phil

JOHN C ,a PS -I hadn,t seen the posts below from Jill and frank when I posted -the lady writes garbage by the truckload and the man wallows in his own self esteem -he awaits we "trolls" with threats of replies to scare our very socks off ,but I still await his promise to insult anyone who could come up with the name of a great Prime Minister ,in an earlier thread(content)-I did -WINSTON !! but the bully could not reply.WE NEED MORE PEOPLE WHO ARE BALANCED LIKE YOU TO GIVE US FOOD FOR THOUGHT .

Jill

From the People’s Cube, news for Groupthinks--

News Alerts:

Obama: ready from day one to place a call to UN if a US city is nuked

Obama: World Trade Center problem ended on 9/11, Pentagon still a problem

Blogger News:

Biden predicts severe test for Obama in first six months: another question from Joe the Plumber

International Scene:

World to USA:--'Fix world economic crisis so we can get back to hating you'

International community promises to suspend anti- Americanism until after Obama saves the world

Jill

Hi Sue! :) Good post. Thanks for the Dick Morris article. I'm on the ground (saluting). If you are not because of distance, pray for us.

JK, Phoenix

To this: "I mean, they love human rights in the Middle East, don't they? "

David says: ‘So, you want us to follow their lead? That's what they want.’

No, we’re not following their lead at all. All the people in Guantanamo are there because of terrorism, not because they’re homosexual etc. Moreover, the worst they can expect is a waterboarding, much less than what goes on in Middle East jails for domestic crimes (and even non-crimes).

Unlike the thousands who died on 11/9, they get a few seconds of water up their nose and get to walk away just as they were before. Quite unlike the torture of having your skin roasted off in a burning tower and being forced to jump to your death. Those people won’t be coming back from that, but instead of worrying about them, you want me to worry about the inmates at Guantanamo, David? Forget it.

What they want is to kill and maim in order to get total cultural submission to their beliefs and vales and they want us to do nothing to stop them - as Bill Clointon’s administration did. If that administration had taken the jihadists more seriously, there may have been a chance to avert 11/9.

If a little waterboarding stops another 11/9 from happening again, so be it.

To this: "World history began with the tenure of George Bush. It's all his fault. "

David says: ‘I woudl say the things George Bush did are his fault. Gitmo was set up on his watch. His fault.’

Guantanamo Bay is not the ‘fault’ of George Bush. It is the fault of the Islamists who treat human life so cheaply that the US lost all those lives on 11/9. George Bush’s first responsibility is to the security of his citizens, not the scumbags trying to kill them.

To this: "It's so easy to compromise with someone"

David says: ‘Yes, which is exactly what Bush did. He compromised Western humanity in the face of terror. Which is exactly what these people want.’

No. The fatal compromise was to let these people plan their vicious enterprise and then carry it out. Having made the mistake of letting them do that on 11/9, the US must never let it happen again. That’s what they want, which is why they keep trying.

David says: ‘Someone who stands resolute for our rights against the slaughter strikes me as a far stronger and more courageous person.’

Stranding up for our rights is exactly what George Bush did. Our right to be alive.

Why should we be killed in terror attacks so people like you can do the dance of denial over our grave?

Ronnie

JILL! Please give us an example of Obama's rhetoric that is straight from Karl Marx.

Ronnie

My hand is already poised, at my mouth, to stifle the yawn induced by Frank P's risable self-regard.

Dave M

What we now see with Obama is America's realisation the global order is changing and America cannot act unilaterally any more. Neither can Russia. We now have the E.U., China and India to consider.Bush, influenced by the neo cons really believed God had established the U.S. as the only superpower, sort of propped up by divine intervention. There was a strong inclination to defend Israel more so from an evangelical Christian point of ideology than rational diplomacy. This has all well and truly failed. Bush's war interventionism led his country towards deep financial overspend and an economic battering because the U.S. had few allies in that war. The whole escapade had to be financed by the American taxpayer. Yet the overthrow of Saddam was really an undoing of all former policy where Iraq served as a counterweight to Iran. Thus, what Americans now want to see is Obama taking steps to right the economy, create jobs and prosperity and influence allies with solid diplomacy. Let's face it Obama is indeed a great spokesman who will be better at foreign policy. Personally, I think he will support Israel and he's even threatened to hit Al Quaida in the borderlands of Pakistan. Iran many also have underestimated Obama. However, I don't think Obama will act unilaterally. He's likely to win over international support and work more with other countries.

Andre

Jill
With respect try reading Obama’s books. I really do not think he will prove weak on foreign policy. Consider, he has lived abroad in Indonesia, went to school in Hawaii and had a father who lived and worked in Kenya. His first move has been to appoint an Israeli-related chief of staff. This gives him a much wider experience of the world than most Americans. Bush and Blair invaded Iraq – the wrong country at the wrong time. The result is the war against Al Quaeda in Afghanistan is failing and a war against Iran will prove politically impossible to bring off. As for a military career, well I was a para in the Foreign Legion. The wars you win are those with a clear cut objective. If Obama can identify the enemy and go after him then victory beckons. To me Obama does indeed represent the American dream in so far as he beat the system to win. His victory reasserts its inherent worth. Moreover the United States has always been about redistribution of wealth. 1000s of people emigrate to the States every year precisely to make something of their lives, casting off the constraints of class and poverty. Perhaps as you say I am being naďve, but I believe the American dream is still worth fighting for. In common with many here in Europe I want to believe that Obama will prove successful where poor old Bush had run out of rope. Obama’s two books give a picture of someone strong willed who believes in justice and deliverance. As a conservative (in Britain) I was oddly heartened by this. Good luck to him I say – and I think he should take an English sheep dog to the Washington.

Ronnie

Jill, thank you for inviting us to your childish, paranoid fantasy.

Actually writing for the Spectator requires a more rounded view of the world. The direction you are currently taking suggests a bitter career in science fiction.

Perhaps Philip K. Dick could provide some inspiration.

Ronnie

JK, Pheonix, why should we allow people like you to hand terrists the victory that is Guantanamo Bay?

They want to destroy our values and you can't wait to help them do it. To succeed, they need us to fear them, to lose confidence in our institutions and our laws and to go down to their level of chaos.

Our fear is their accomplice.

fellow traveller

Cabbie: "He will try to retain as much independence as possible, throwing them a bone from time to time (Guantanamo) but the leftisit will lust for more and more. Restraint is not a leftist value."

Well you're definitely testing my restraint with this nonsense Cabbie. If you've decided that Obama's foreign policy will be in thrall to the Huffington Post you've maybe been reading Jill's zanier posts.

And your closing zinger just doesn't even make sense. Surely, in a world of conservative talk show hosts throwing around allegations that Obama is Marxist/Islamic fundamentalist/Hitler (and some of the odder postings here), us poor lefties are restrained by comparison?

C'mon, you're usually far more sensible than this.

derek

LAST DAY OF SALVATION: MAY 21 2011

.....and for your folks that are based in reality, how are you charging Obama of replying too weakly when he has yet to sit one single day in office?

Stop getting your made up news from Limbaugh/WND/Drudge who are in a business of making up crazy stories so that they are filling their pockets with your money (or Limbaugh's case, buying vicodin). Or wait...I see what you're doing...you're trying to get these (non) stories ready and primed for Limbaugh/WND/Drudge to take them big time, and then you get notoriety!

Listen, I'm fine with people being liberal and conservative and anything else. We're not all going to agree on something. But spare everybody the hysterics, especially after we've had to deal with the ridiculousness of the past 8 years. Having someone who isn't grossly negligent and is prepping himself to be surrounded by varying view points will be refreshing. :)

fellow traveller

Jill: "Obama's rhetoric is straight from Karl Marx, and nobody on the O side cared."

If you want to be a journalist you'll have to try harder. It's not like being paid for blog posting. For example, a good copy editor might ask you which bits of Obama's rhetoric were straight from Karl Marx, and you'd be expected to provide some sort of evidence.

phil

Ronnie ,how many times have we asked for replies (sensible ones )from the usual suspects -so far nada -expect nothing better :)because the truth is they dont have them -chins up JK ANDRE AND FT you are not alone

Ronnie

Hi Phil, I tried to respond to you earlier but the system ate it up.

I don't think you should worry about those who only want to tread the water of agreement. They are going nowhere and their backs will be covered in red marks from all the slapping.

Frank P makes me laugh though, he thinks its his blog. I've heard you can get counselling for that.

Dan Shores, USA

Our country is in desperate need of a few politicians & mainstream media having Ms Phillips understanding of world affairs & related politics. The recent election cannot be called democracy, as some have said. It was an exercise in massive deception,voter self deception & fraud.It will contiue unabated! Churchhill once said & I quote,"You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, once they have tried everything else." The last election was not the right thing & we may gone well past the point of return!

John Birch

Dan Shores, USA: Were you living in the U.S. in 2000 when the current president won the election even though he received fewer votes than his opponent and voter supression efforts occurred in Florida helping to narrowly swing that state to Bush? How does the election that just occurred compare to that one?

Ronnie

So, Dan Shores, as you won't be coming back, this is good bye.

Stu

Conservative Cabbie - Since when has the Huffington Post been a far left group? Tripe of the highest order...

An American

I find it interesting that Obama's staff refers to Obama 'ruling' America...not serving.
Israel...you're on your own now. Obama and liberal American could care less about your future. They are busy socializing our banks and industries....They're busy cutting up our pie to give to all those 'takers'...those poor unfortunates who voted for that big fat check that Obama promised them.
Israel...you better get in there quick, drop your bunker-busting bombs and get out...Good luck.

An American

Andre,
Now I understand why Britain is now a socialist country...God help it. It's so-called 'conservative' people like you who have helped
your country get where it is today. We Americans have a very different interpretation of 'conservative' than you. We're looking at you and are fearful that this is where America is heading. Melanie knows...she said in one of her articles that the US was the last great hope for freedom in the world. We're sad for Britain...Americans have a real affection for its people...I have many British friends. But we're frightened for America. Maybe we can learn from your mistakes...many of us don't plan to go down as easily as you Brits have. No insult intended.

An American

To John Birch, Ronnie, Stu, Phil, Derek, etc.
I don't understand why you blog Melanie's comments page. You never agree with anything this brilliant woman writes...is it because you are out of work and spend all of your time blogging waiting for the welfare check? I bet you all have those little wispy goatees too.
Cheers!

JuneBug

John Birch:

As regards the 2000 election you refer to, President Bush won the electoral college votes in order to win the election. In case you didn't know, the popular vote is not the decisive one. You are correct however, in that there was a valiant, organized, and systemic attempt to steal the 2000 election. By Al Gore's attorneys and the democratic party apparatus. With the help of the media who tried to help suppress republican voter turnout in their own way by calling Florida for Gore before the polls had even closed in the panhandle area.

You ask, "how does the election that just occurred compare to that one?" Well, here's how:

1) In the thick of the 2000 vote recount, the Florida supreme court tried to change election law in order to allow votes that would accrue to Gore. The U.S. Supreme court intervened, and said no, you can't legislate those changes from the bench circumventing the normal legislative process.

2) This year, the democrats got a lot more creative. Factor in stolen/phony/dead votes registered through ACORN, massive refusal by in-the-obama-tank media to even cursorily investigate obama's past, and on-going efforts by dems to steal three currently undecided senate races through magically appearing votes for dem-only candidates, as well as employing a soothsaying technique to attempt to guess whom voters (who only voted for the president on the ballot) intended to vote for in the senate race. Surprise! A vote for obama is a vote for Franken!

So, the short answer is that the difference between the two elections is really a matter of degree of democrat party instigated, systemic, and blatant FRAUD.

I have no faith in our election system as it now stands. In certain states, our votes are well and truly no more reliable than a third world banana republic.

Sue

Jill, I thought you would make an excellent blogger in this grassroots movement. See what you think:
http://dontgomovement.com/

I signed up last night.

victoria williams

'And meanwhile Palestinian children are still taught to hate Jews and told that one day Israel will be destroyed'
I don't suppose that Israel's inhumane treatment of Palestinians generally and of those in Gaza specifically could have anything to do with young Palestinians opinions and prejudices? It would be surprising if a schoolchild in Gaza did not grow up with strong feelings against the imperialists - have we not seen that before?

barckobama

Andre. How can the US bring about regime change in Iran and Syria without an invasion, as in Iraq in 2003? Please provide more detailed suggestions.

JuneBug

Regarding obama's marxist and perhaps racist tendencies, here are selected quotes from his book, "Dreams From My Father"....

"To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully,the more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists."

"I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race"

"Desperate times called for desperate measures, and for many blacks, times were chronically desperate. If nationalism could create a strong and effective insularity, deliver on its promise of self-respect, then the hurt it might cause well-meaning whites, or the inner turmoil it caused people like me, would be of little consequence"

And finally, here is Obama quoting advice his mentor - a card carrying member of the Communist Party USA - Frank Marshall Davis, gave him. Not to "start believing what they tell you about equal opportunity and the American way and all that sh*t."

Sue

I won't waste time trying to write about concerns regarding the coming Obamanization of America. Listen for yourselves from Rahm Emanuel himself:

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/11/12/audio-the-obligatory-rahm-emanuel-talks-about-compulsory-civil-defense-service-clip/

I'm envisioning the uniforms, and the lock step parading right now. So parents who have worked earnestly to instill a strong faith based world view and principles in the hearts of their children now face the challenge of state run indoctrinization.

This is hardly the stuff of "childish fantasy" Ronnie.

JK, Phoenix

Oh my, Ronnie and Phil, pardon me if I hold down a full-time job and family and don’t have the time to get on the net very often. So what’s changed since I last visited here? Oh, nothing. No devastating arguments from you at all. Just garbage.

‘JK, Pheonix, why should we allow people like you to hand terrists the victory that is Guantanamo Bay?’

No, the terrorists’ agenda is not let the US set up Guantanamo Bay and they will have victory.

Their agenda is that for: “Those who have disbelieved our signs, we shall roast them in fire. Whenever their skins are cooked to a turn, we shall substitute new skins for them, that they may feel the punishment; verily, Allah is sublime and wise.”

As people keep pointing out to you.

Why are you in denial of that?

‘They want to destroy our values’ yes, that’s right ‘and you can't wait to help them do it’. No that’s wrong. I have said at all that I’m going to kill anyone who doesn’t believe in Allah or converts to Islam. That’s all in your head, Ronnie.

‘To succeed, they need us to fear them, [the first eight words are right] to lose confidence in our institutions.’ No, we haven’t lost confidence in our institutions. If we had done that, we wouldn’t have democracy here. We’d have a theocracy. We would be ruled by Islam and have every aspect of our lives all operating according to the teachings of Islam.

‘and our laws and to go down to their level of chaos.’ Our laws haven’t gone down to their level of chaos. That’s why you don’t see public stonings of homosexuals.

‘Our fear is their accomplice.’ Your fear, most certainly. Not mine. I’m not going to grovel to Islam just because somebody threatens my life.

Hayward Maberley

Sue,
“If I did not have faith in the God of Israel, Whom they themselves have long foresaken....”
Do you mean that followers of Judaism have forsaken the God of Israel?
So to whom do they pray, whether Orthodox, Conservative, Reformist, Hasidic etc.
followed by
“In the meantime, while waiting on the fulfillment of Biblical prophesies...”.
What prophecies are being waited on exactly?
Are they chiliastic in expectation?

Hayward

An American,
I am among the etc. in the list of people who “never agree with anything this brilliant woman writes”
I do not speak for the others but the reason I started recently to post, apart from a 21C. rendering of Descartes “Je pense donc je suis”, is that there is/was a quite irrational strain throughout many of the pieces that are put up. Particularly concerning the US President elect.
And as for some of the people who post up, the strain was even more irrational.
I work in an academic library full time, an occupation that I enjoy and also do some voluntary work as well. I have previously worked as an book indexer. proof reader and fact checker. That is one of the reasons I post as errors/typos leap out out at me.
I do not receive a cheque of any sort from the government apart from small tax refunds. Also I do not have a little wispy goatee.
Cheers

Sue

Hayward asks:

“Do you mean that followers of Judaism have forsaken the God of Israel? So to whom do they pray, whether Orthodox, Conservative, Reformist, Hasidic etc.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I do not mean that practicing, Orthodox Jews have forsaken their faith. I do believe however that for the most part Israel has forgotten the promises of God in relation to her.

Israel has failed to fulfill her calling to be an example to the world of holiness in dedication to God (Lv 20:20-24, 26; Dt 6:4,5; 7:6, etc.). While there are many believing Israelis, some even within the military, Israel today as a whole remains as wicked and godless as America and the rest of the nations. God's "chosen people," living once again in the Promised Land in fulfillment of many specific biblical prophecies, refuse to honor in their daily lives the God of their fathers who has brought them there. In these dangerous times, the vast majority of Israelis trust in their own arms and determination instead of trusting the only One who can protect them and has promised to do so.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were promised by God that their descendants would possess forever a land bordered on the south by "the river of Egypt" in the Sinai, by the Euphrates on the north, the Mediterranean on the west and reaching into Jordan on the east (Gn 12:1-7; 13:15; 15:7; 18-21; 17:7-8; 26:3-5; 28:13-14; 35:9-12; 50:24; Ex 6:2-8; 33:1-3,16; Lv 20:22-26; Dt 32:49; 34:4; Neh 9:8; Ps 89:28-36; Jer 30:3,10,11; 31:7-12,35-36; 33:20-21; Ez 37:21-28; Am 9:13-15, etc.). That area has thus been known as "the promised land." We dare not forget that it belongs to Israel by God's decree. Yet the Arabs, and leaders of the world all ignore this and continue to worry about “peace” and pressure Israel to give away the land God promised them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hayward asked: “What prophecies are being waited on exactly?
Are they chiliastic in expectation?”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The millennial reign of Christ is certainly part of these prophecies, but that time will be preceded by the Great Tribulation, that will culminate in the battle of Armageddon, when all the world, lead by the antichrist will come against Israel.

God foretold, "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling...[and] a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it" (Zec 12:2-3).
At the time of that prophecy 2,500 years ago, Jerusalem was in ruins and the land of Israel was abandoned swamp and desert. So it remained until 1948, when the nation of Israel was established. Yet God's seemingly preposterous promise was fulfilled. Today the attention of the entire world is focused upon that tiny piece of once forsaken and worthless real estate, in fear of what may happen there—exactly as Zechariah prophesied!

Andre

‘How can the US bring about regime change in Iran and Syria without an invasion?’
Subtlety, dear boy, subtlety.
‘Americans have a very different interpretation of 'conservative' than you.’ A losing one it seems

Ronnie

Sue, interesting.

Ronnie

An American, it must be really easy for you, blogging only with those you agree with, no critical thinking required.

I bet you have a big, thick, red neck.

Ronnie

JK, Pheonix, so you are not going to 'grovel to Islam'. Good man but why do you care so much about what is written in the Koran or in their propaganda?

Sadam Hussein promised us the 'mother of all battles' yet it was over in days. Did you believe him too?

Sue says here that she has lost faith in the electoral system, presumably because her guy didn't win. Isn't that evidence of a collapse of confidence in our institutions?

Guantanamo Bay is not the victory, JK, it is a victory in the cheese-pairing world of terrist strategy. Another victory is for us to see them as more than they are.

They seem to be succeeding there too.

fellow traveller

An American: "You never agree with anything this brilliant woman writes...is it because you are out of work and spend all of your time blogging waiting for the welfare check? I bet you all have those little wispy goatees too."

Aw, bless. We're sorry naughty people keep disagreeing with your mentors. Look on the bright side: most people who find the bulk of the comments here to be ridiculous choose to leave well alone.

Scarier still: most of the people who would disagree with your point of view are hard-working, ethical, responsible people who look just like you! Though probably with a different sticker on their car. So it's worse than you think: in a time of civil strife you wouldn't be able to pick us out by our small beards or beatnik lifestyles.

Conservative Cabbie

Fellow Traveller

I think you misinterpreted 'restraint'. It was a reference to the left's propensity to use government to try and solve a countries or the worlds ills. In this particular context, I was referring to the left-wing movement of which Moveon etc are part and also Congress wanting Obama to initiate and sign as much legislation as possible relevant to all their pet projects (Card Check, Fairness Doctrine, pulling out of Iraq, Guantanamo, defence cuts, bail outs, socialised medicine, tax hikes yada yada yada). I made no reference to lack of restraint in the way you meant it. However, as you claim to be struggling, I shall endeavour to show enough restraint for the both of us whilst correcting your rush to judgement.

As for his financial backers, I take it you don't believe that Obama is indebted to them. I think you're on your own there, because the type of people I'm talking about, moveon.org, NAACP, are already publicly reminding Obama of their wishlist and he hasn't taken office yet. Let me ask you, if a Right-wing government had taken office, funded by big business, and someone suggested that this new government would be required to do the bidding of it's fundraisers, would you be similarly aghast at the suggestion?

Maybe it's just me, seems like a sensible post to me.

Conservative Cabbie

Stu

From where I stand, anything on the left is "far-left". :-)

OK, maybe not far left I'll concede but judging by this from the blog:

"On exactly the opposite side of the globe from Chicago, the tropical noonday sun outside my window juxtaposed with televised images of your happy midnight, I watched you crying in Grant Park, people of America, your hearts set ablaze by your new President's eloquence, by the poetry of his improbable victory, by your sudden surge of hope that the ship of state could right its course in the wearying year to come."

that'll be just crap then.

phil

an american your quote
"November 13th, 2008 7:23pm
To John Birch, Ronnie, Stu, Phil, Derek, etc.
I don't understand why you blog Melanie's comments page. You never agree with anything this brilliant woman writes...is it because you are out of work and spend all of your time blogging waiting for the welfare check? I bet you all have those little wispy goatees too.
Cheers!" ---do you think Mel IS STUPID LIKE YOU ?DOES SHE THINK EVERYONE SHOULD THINK ALWAYS LIKE HER ?I give her a lot more credit than that.I have met rednecks like you before so I dont expect much sense from you . oh and I dont have a beard and have spent my life doing useful things no doubt unlike you ,and may I speak for all those you have tried to insult we dont give a b....s what you think

Si, N

Victoria Williams, I'm with you on this one.

It's worth commenting further on that ridiculous quote from Phillips:

'meanwhile Palestinian children are still taught to hate Jews and told that one day Israel will be destroyed'

That from a woman who supports Israel - a state that routinely brutalises ALL of its children by giving them guns, instructing them in killing and leading them to believe that one day Palestine will be destroyed.

As for Oslo as an 'appeasement process' - given the fact that it was the Palestinians who made ALL the concessions one can only assume Phillips refers to the appeasement of Israel. The outlandish favouring of needs as opposed to rights in this matter was a blatant attempt to seek legitimacy for the land grabs and annexations that continue apace. See now how the residents of Nilin are being hemmed-in - the mooted tunnel to allow access to Palestinians whilst settlers commandeer the roads for use by Jews only is an utter disgrace.

And that comment: 'by pressuring Israel to give up yet more land for Hamas/Iran to colonise'. What kind of garbage is that? Hamas are Palestinian - in what way can they be considered colonisers? Yet again Phillips inverts reality.

michael

if you hang around people like you - of whom you will find many more in the US than you will here - no wonder you think the pervailing opinion is jaundiced against Obama.

Meanwhile, in the real world....

Keith

"Obambi" I predict will become commonparlance in the next few years.
Brilliant.

Harvey

Si N

I understand your genuine greivance that Israel maintains its policy of National Sevice and thereby its emphasis on a stong army .It must be quite frustrating that Israel sees fit to protect its citizens from the constant threat of annihilation from its neighbours for the pat 60 years.

It's a tough neighbourhood .No army no Israel.Sorry not to oblige!

By the way check out MEMRI or Palestinian Media Watch for real examples on how to teach 3 year olds to hate .

Jill

Ronnie,

Obama's "spread the wealth," traitorous interview on the US Constitution from 2001, and plans for National Civilian Security Force.

I only listed three. There are so many to choose from.

If you are still not convinced, pay attention to Americans reaction over the next few years. The first clue is Americans are stocking up on guns and ammunition. Why?

Google Representative Broun.

It doesn't help when Biden asks the far left to join him and Obama to control "American resisters" after a 9/11 attack he "guarantees" will happen in the first six months of O's administration. They envision the need for controlling us because they intend to make a decision most Americans will disagree with, such as, doing nothing to defend us or inviting the UN to send our own troops against us.

Does that sound like a Constitutional Republic of self-government to you?

You can read from Broun that these conclusions are wide spread. Why?

Jill

Sue writes: Jill, I thought you would make an excellent blogger in this grassroots movement. See what you think:
http://dontgomovement.com/

I signed up last night.
-------------------------
Sue,

I'll check it out :) Thanks, Sister.

An American

To Ronnie, Stu, Phil, Derek, John Birch, etc.
Thank you for my morning's chuckle...I must have really touched some nerves there... Honestly, its interesting and entertaining reading all of your commie comments, it reminds Americans why we need to keep up the good 'conservative' battle for the future of our country and its children.
All of you are so typically liberal...you're quite nasty in your personal comments but are real weinies when it comes to taking it.
Since I can't vent against our great Marxist leader and the worse Democratic Congress in US history...it helps to unload on all of you. Thanks for the opportunity.
Cheers.

An American

Just curious...did any of you see Obama give his 'middle finger' salute to both Hillary and McCain while he was saying 'nice' comments about them.
On top of being a Marxist...he's a very petty, immature person. Woe to anyone that crosses this fine fellow. I guess that goes along with anyone with a god complex.

I think we should start using Obama's salute on him....you know...like 'Heil Obambi' with our middle fingers extended in greeting to our great leader.

Conservative Cabbie

An american

Yes, I saw it, too much of a coincidence to be anything but deliberate. Have a listen to the crowds reaction the second time, they knew exactly what he was doing.

Trouble is the KosKids like that sort of thing. Not exactly Presidential?

Hayward

An American,
I do believe you were the one to start the ad hominem attacks referring to people being unemployed and blogging while awaiting their dole/unemployment cheques. Addding the wearing of a wispy goatee as what you regard as the final definer of an idler and ne'erdowell.
I seem to remember that George Armstrong Custer wore what was probaly a goatee, look what happened to him. I syill do not have one on that account!
So what about people in glasshouse being concerned about the throwing of stone.
I try never to make ad hominem attacks, just ad verecundiam

Ronnie

Jill, I'd like to know more about this National Civilian Security Force please - lots of links.

Hayward Maberley

Ronnie,
Now we have been made aware by Sue of exactly where she is coming from, chiliasitcally speaking, I am not sure whether to have a really good laugh, or to be shit scared. Speaking of the chiliastic, when Israel made that last foolish foray into Lebanon there were postings all over the strange sites connected to this sort of stuff.
Many people were becoming very excited about the possibility of the End of Days and the Rapture.
Talk about Strange Days

KateA

Sue: "God's "chosen people," living once again in the Promised Land in fulfillment of many specific biblical prophecies, refuse to honor in their daily lives the God of their fathers who has brought them there. In these dangerous times, the vast majority of Israelis trust in their own arms and determination instead of trusting the only One who can protect them and has promised to do so."

What nonsense! What an insult to the dead. Israel should sit on its collective hands and wait to be 'saved'; just like in the 1930s? Do you know anything of Jewish history?

Literally MILLIONS of European Jews believed God would protect them; even in the face of an horrendous history of pogroms. Six million (at least) were exterminated.

I had a beloved Jewish teacher who survived Auschwitz-Berkenau. She ended up there because her parents were orthodox Jews who could not abandon their belief that they would be 'protected'. They ignored offers from relatives abroad to help them get out while there was still time. My teacher was the only member of that large family to survive.

Conversely, in the 1970s, I spent time with Israeli contemporaries; some of them children of survivors. Angry, passionate and dedicated to Israel, their heartening message was 'Never again'; translation: 'God helps those who help themselves'. May it always be so.

IIsrael exists ONLY because "the vast majority of Israelis trust in their own arms and determination". Had that not been the case, their neighbours would have long since succeeded in exterminating them.

How easy it is to sit in the good ole USA and admonish Israel. Do you pray for more Jewish 'Tribulation' - purity through persecution to speed up the return of the Messiah? Are you of the 'Rapture' and 'end days' persuasion?

"While it is considered a period of immense suffering and sacrifice, greater than anything before in history, believers are promised strong faith and powers to help them endure and prevail." against the Antichrist.

Have not enough Jews died yet to satisfy the God of the evangelical Right?

phil

I don't enjoy referring to you as "an American" as you demean the very words -you should spend more time painting your neck red and less time advising us, and btw Israel does not need either your support or advice -I,m sure they would be most offended by being associated with right wing nutters-Anyone who thinks those that disagree with your ignorant ways are "commies"has no idea what a real one is -I FOR ONE AM A CONSERVATIVE .silly man !

phil

Kate A -welcome back I am always uplifted when I see your posts .so many here write horrible things ,I wonder what motivates them ?

Si, N

Harvey, it’s a tough neighbourhood because Israel was aggressively established in the locale. The ‘Irgun Jewish terrorist organisation’, and other incoming extremist groups, bombed the British out of the area. Then followed a 60 years and counting campaign of ethnic cleansing and violence against Palestinian/Arab residents of the neighbourhood. It must quite pleasing that Israel sees fit to maintain its annihilation of its neighbours for the past 60 years and counting with its policy of National Service. How civilised?

Are you aware of the vile treatment of and barbarous conditions being imposed on the residents of Nilin? Things sure are tough in that part of the neighbourhood.

By the way, check out http://tinyurl.com/66hfn8 for real examples of how to familiarise 3 year olds with killing tools.

Kate A

Dear phil - thank you. The answer to your question is: narcissism (of the most "fragrant" kind) and ignorance.

Witness, over past weeks, the hysterical conflation of: Marxist, Communist, liberal, radical and socialist.

According to that lexicon, Margaret Thatcher, the last great British 'radical', was a Marxist; Cameron's Tory Party is communist and the Lib Dems? Repressed Stalinists!!

Laughed out loud at your 'red' paint suggestion. Regards

Sue

KateA-

I definitely do NOT hope for more tribulation for Israel. I have studied ancient Jewish history and I certainly know about the unconscionable crimes of the holocaust, and I in no way relish the suffering and persecution of the Jewish people. I love Israel, and respect Jews as God's chosen people.

Where I differ from you and Hayward is that I have a Biblical world view. I take the scripture literally. I believe it to be the Word of the Judeo-Christian God, Who says of Himself that He is the ONLY God, and there are no other gods before Him.

Of course Hayward thinks it is "a laugh", and you express your ignorance of what the Bible says regarding the last days...
"Do you pray for more Jewish 'Tribulation' - purity through persecution to speed up the return of the Messiah? Are you of the 'Rapture' and 'end days' persuasion?"

*"While it is considered a period of immense suffering and sacrifice, greater than anything before in history, believers are promised strong faith and powers to help them endure and prevail."* against the Antichrist."

Nowhere did I say what you quoted me as saying, nor does the scripture say that "believers are promised strong faith and powers to help them endure and prevail".

The 'tribulation' will be a time of God's judgment on the whole of faithless mankind, not just Israel.

Perhaps to people who neither believe, nor understand the scriptures, it would appear that Christians are waiting hopefully for the antichrist.

For those who understand what scripture teaches about the eschatology of end time events, there is a great sense of anticipation as world events begin to mirror bible prophesy.
Not because we are cheering for the appearance of the antichrist, but we are looking for our "blessed hope", Christ Himself!

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

And Kate, the only reason Israel exsists is because of her strong military and weapons. The One whom the Bible 203 times calls "the God of Israel" has sworn by an everlasting covenant that Israel (three times called the "apple" of His eye-Dt 32:10; Lam 3:18; Zec 2:8) will never cease to exist as a nation: "Therefore fear thou not...O Israel...though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I...will not leave thee altogether unpunished" (Jer 30:10,11). "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the city [Jerusalem] shall be built...it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever" (Jer 31:38-40). The language could not be clearer here and throughout God's Holy Word.

Jill

Ronnie,

Different threads hang loose right now. We don’t know how they will all come together, but none of them are comforting:

Thread One: National Civilian Security Force
Obama at a campaign rally:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s
Paraphrased: we need a national civilian security force just as powerful and funded as the US military. (300 billion per year.)

Emanuel volunteers Americans to do 'a lot'
'If you're worried about having to do 50 jumping jacks the answer is yes' E quipped:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=80829
Emanuel wrote a book outlining a plan for a National Civilian Security Force.

An article about the words O said and reaction of Americans:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/11/obama_fear_and_the_security_fo.html

Thread Two, a few warnings about terror from Biden and International leaders:
Biden in Seattle at a lefty fundraiser during the election: "Mark my words, mark my words, it will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama like they did John Kennedy. The world is looking. We're about to elect a brilliant 47-year-old senator president of the United States of America. Remember I said it standing here if you don't remember anything else I said. Watch, we're gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy. I can give you at least four or five scenarios from where it might originate," Biden said mentioning the Middle East and Russia as possibilities.

"And [O's] gonna have to make some really tough - I don't know what the decision's gonna be, but I promise you it will occur. As a student of history and having served with seven presidents, I guarantee you it's gonna happen. I can give you at least four or five scenarios from where it might originate. And he's gonna need help. And the kind of help he's gonna need is, he's gonna need you, not financially to help him, we're gonna need you to use your influence, your influence within the community, to stand with him."

FYI, those rich liberal lefties have no influence in my community. Hence, they need a the National Civilian Security Force to control chaos if they do nothing about a terror attack. Biden announced this twice during the campaign and said it would not be apparent O's decision would be "right." He also said he expects the crisis to be as big as 9/11. O's popularity will suffer, so he needs the lefties to stick by him [to keep O's popularity?].

The combination of O, E, B, and months of "leaders" in Washington giving taxpayers ultimatums, and basically scaring the hell out of everybody with their incompetence, has resulted in widespread fear that Marxists are taking over. Maybe they are not so incompetent:

Obama election triggers national gun rush
FBI reports 49% increase in firearm background checks in 1 week

Don’t forget, too: International leaders have warned of an attack bigger than 9/11.

Thread Three: We are watching "Big business" align with the federal government with the bail outs, supposedly to survive the transition? Isn’t that what happens right before a totalitarian take-over?

And what is the manufactured international crisis? Or is it a terror attack worse than 9/11?

We're scared and don't know what direction the attack on US citizens will come from, but Biden guarantees it will come. Will it come from our own federal government or the terrorists?

One of my state representatives said the National Civilian Security Force sounds like Marxism and was silenced with media pressure. I emailed him at 8 PM yesterday and told him I'm scared, and I asked him, “just who exactly are our representatives representing?” because he apologized in the press for saying “Marxist.” He wrote me back thirty minutes later and said, even though he apologized for the reference to Marxism, he will continue to fight for liberty! <---he used the exclamation point.

We hope we are not witnessing the threads come together that say Marxist takeover or a terror attack so bad that O thinks he needs a new kind of military force to control us when we begin to defend ourselves. Naturally, it would be risky to demand the US Military to control armed US citizens. They would not do it, and the feds would lose control of the US military. A National Civilian Security Force of indoctrinated youth would do it.

Obama will not answer questions about this, but has started an online website to begin organizing the force. The MSM is not asking q's.

Ronnie

Hayward, at least we can't accuse Sue of lacking a plan.

phil

Sue you are obviously a sincere lady and probably a little misunderstood ,but some of us are also decent and sincere with different views KateA for one .
So a little Jewish joke (very old)may help you to understand a different mindset -

ok here goes -An impecunious Jewish guy was praying one day to the lord "please can you help me ,can I win the lottery ?and a voice came down to tell him the lord would bear it in mind .6 months later and no win, our man prayed again saying he had not had any help ,the voice came down again -"can you not help me out a bit and buy a ticket at least ?-Well that illustrates only that we believe we should help ourselves and if I am right (I am not too learned ) Jewish law encourages people to take their own path and to influence their own destiny .I can,t believe the literal translations of the bible but I can take its influence for good rather than evil -from past experience those like KateA and hopefully myself and others here live with feelings of compassion and caring regardless of their origins and religions .

My plumber a Jehovas witness,long since taken, warned me on a regular basis of what was due for us next week and indicated obtuse passages in the bible to prove it -They never happened of course and he is up there now finding out how wrong he was it proves nothing of course ,but does bring to mind the great Mel Brooks doing a sketch about Moses coming down from Sinai and observing the Israelites dancing round a pole and worshipping an idol called Phil (as it happens )-HE SMOTE THE ROCK (YOU KNOW THE REST) and the Israelites took fright exclaiming "lookout there is somebody bigger than Phil.

Sue we are all different but what is important to me is that compassion and care that I referred to earlier and without them religion is useless ,so whoever you worship ,may he bless you .

Jill

Andre writes: Obama does indeed represent the American dream in so far as he beat the system to win. His victory reasserts its inherent worth. Moreover the United States has always been about redistribution of wealth.
---------------------------
Jill writes: the Internal Revenue Service has never been a collection agency that takes in our paychecks and then redistributes them. That is a brand new concept. The American Dream is over if O gets his way on taxes. Nobody will be able to overcome the $150 to $300 wall. You'll be able to get there, but will be prevented from going beyond it. Most small businesses make that much in a year. They will be prevented from re-investing and growth. It will hurt them the most and they provide 45% of all jobs in the USA. People will not get raises and may be laid off. O made his millions during the Bush economy with the Bush tax cuts, as they are called. O plans to take those away. Anybody who wants to make millions in O's economy won't be able to do it. The election of presidents is not ever supposed to be about fulfilling the dream of a solitary family. It has always been in the past about all American families. Low taxes, limited government= American Dream. That part of our history is over, at least for the present. I was fighting in this election for my American Dream and every other Joe the Plumber out there, but we lost. Our dreams are over. We're hoping our states will defend us and will re-ignite our dreams. We have a distance to travel before we re-claim our dreams and be free.

Conservative Cabbie

Hayward

I'm starting to get a little concerned about your obsession with chiliasm. I think it would be fair to say that you are a liberal, wouldn't you agree? Aren't liberals supposed to demonstrate tolerance and understanding to others? I feel it is only right to point out that you are failing miserably in your liberalism right now. I'm only saying this for your benefit, I want you to turn aside from your dark obsessions and rediscover the light of a tolerant liberalism that will allow you to focus on a persons character beyond their religious beliefs.

Consider it a favour and you're welcome!

phil

Jill how sad -we all shed tears for you ,but I must say you are resilient,maybe dizzy even.as you certainly don't know when both you and we have had enough .I think the referee should stop this contest to save you from further punishment and give you a chance to continue you career-on other subjects have you tried chess or bridge ?,they would keep you busy-if you need any help many of us here would be glad to point you in the right direction . Better still write something other than a blast at Obama and consider brevity ,you may well get a better response from those that criticise you including me

KateA

Could somebody explain why my posts to this thread have been blocked for two days??

I have attempted two responses to 'Sue' - two to 'phil': one to each Sun - disappeared, one to each Mon - disappeared; repeating myself indeed, BUT is that any reason for censorship?

KateAa

Sue: Posted this response on Sun evening and again Mon afternoon. Neither appeared.

Apologies for, uncharacteristically omitting reference to a second quote from a National Council of Churches USA pamphlet on "understanding the religious 'right'".

You write: "Where I differ from you and Hayward is that I have a Biblical world view. I take the scripture literally.."

That is as may be, and is certainly your 'right' BUT I fear you will find few supporters of Israel (Christian or Jew) on this site in agreement with your opinions on, and plans for, Israel and the Jewish people. Certainly NOT Melanie Philips.

The Bible Sue, is a collection of 66 books written by about 40 authors, in three different languages, on three different continents, over approximately 1600 years.

That being so, and understanding something of the vagaries of human perception and memory, plus variations and errors in translation, I cannot comprehend HOW it can be read in contemporary English as the immutable 'word of God'.

Further, in the words of a Jewish, Hebrew scholar, Dr Irene Lancaster, "you can't understand the Hebrew Bible (alias 'Old Testament') without knowing Hebrew, as it is based on punning and innuendo...!"

She refers, of course, to linguistic nuance; original meaning lost in translation. I would posit that one is therefore faced with logical problems, in imposing a personalised literal interpretation on Old or New Testament texts. The latter originally in Aramaic and Greek.

These things are precisely why, Christian scholars of theology and Jewish Rabbis have been engaged in revising and updating original texts for centuries.

The King James bible, which I have studied, is a wonderful example of allegory, poetic language, imagery, mysticism, prophecy, parable, Jewish history, humanity's need to make sense of existence AND a moral compass.

It is NOT a literal narrative, and, whilst the genealogy of the Israelites is an historical record, the majority of stories are designed for a mainly illiterate population more accustomed to the oral than the written tradition, ergo allegory and parable.

Careful reading of Pentecostal/Charismatic chiliastic doctrine suggests a deficit of cognisance; the movement 'Jews for Christ' et al does not denote 'respect' for the religion that gave us He who lived and died a Jew but rather the opposite.

There is indeed, an historical resonance of the oldest - if not hatred - certainly holy 'superiority'. The history of the exile is fraught with Christian persecution and pressure to convert. Even that (conversion) did not save those of Jewish ancestry in Hitler's Europe.

So, while at this point time, your certitude presents as peculiar to specific far-right Protestant denominations in America, it is nonetheless disturbing in its totalitarian overtones. Those who do not learn from history live to repeat it.

It is, I believe, a huge arrogance to claim superior exegesis; to patronise Jews on how they should 'view' themselves or conduct the affairs of their sovereign state.

To my mind, fundamentalist certitude is a rejection of God-given intelligence – a retreat into wishful superiority and attractive only to those requiring the absolute ‘security’ of shared delusion. Something to do with God in their own image!

I am a traditional Anglican. That God is Divine, all-powerful and in consequence 'unknowable' is, in my personal faith, a 'given'. What conceit to imagine we can ever 'know' his ultimate intent.

Judaism, with its history of study, rational examination, dissent and capacity for revisionism, confirms that concept. As does the conflicting versions of God and God's Will articulated by innumerable Christian sects. I wish you well in your beliefs Sue, but repeat - I doubt such proselytising will find converts on this particular site.

Hayward Maberley

Mr Cabbia,
Just a brief visit. Interesting that KateA/a, who is obviously a student/scholar of things Biblical/Judeo/Christian, also expresses some concerns on the chiliastic! There is hope for rationality on the blog yet!
Ta, til the New Year

KateA

Hayward: " KateA ....obviously a student/scholar of things Biblical/Judeo/Christian..."

Thank you but theology is not my discipline. I am a friend of Israel. In that context it is important (today) to be informed - cover all the 'angles' so to speak!