Iran's useful idiots

Ian C

This is a direct result of how destructive the modern media is of a balanced agenda - all because it is good for sales. It is not an industry with an ethical bone in its body - it is about maximum profit and minimising truth and balance because it is easier to carp than to provide valuable critique. No mainstream exceptions.

Elke

I just cannot understand how come nobody sees the obvious you have just written. It seems we haven't learned through our past mistakes, while endorsing frontal apology to dictatorships such as Iran's, and demonize Israel, a democracy, as if it were the bad guy of History.
The President of Brazil, for instance, a bolivarian leftist known by his constant travels abroad, has visited and endorsed support to many dictatoprships, including Iran. However, he has never stepped on Israeli ground. His foreign policy is totally a favor of autoritarian governments, even if it means harming his own country.

raymond joseph douglas

Israel should act in it's own best intersts, and dammn what we in the west think !

patricia

Iran is right.

Most people with a balanced look at the region, and not a one sided pro Israeli blinkered agenda, agree that;

Iran is perfectly entitled to have nuclear energy. Its oil will run out. What is it meant to do thereafter?

Iran is perfectly entitled to protect itself and its assets against the UK, US and Israel, given recent history.

Iran's victimisation at the hands of Churchill, Roosevelt, Rumsfeld, Bush and Israeli lobbying is historical truth.

It was UK/US that killed off Iran's first nationally elected President, installed the tyrannical Shah and armed Sadam to the teeth to kill more than 1 million Iranians.

Western demonisation of Iran is a hollow cry, give the lies that came from the same people - Neoconservatives and Israel - over Iraq.

Israel has no entitlement to be the only middle east power with nuclear weaponry. It has a right to defend itself from Iran, as does Iran from a belligerent Israel.

In any case, before Israel complains about Iran's pronouncements, it should take a serious look at its own human rights violations, and the ugly pronouncements about Palestinian people and their rights that issue forth from hard line Israeli Likudniks.

Finally, wasn't it Mel who wrote in the JC - "Bomb Iran Now!" A headline guaranteed to bring Iran to the negotiating table.

Pedro Erik

I am becoming much less confindent about Western advanced countries, mainly because Obama. But now, Melaine, consider other idiots, as from South America, where does not exist right-wing parties, because elite and people confound right parties with fascism.

Dixon

I have a friend who only two years ago graduated in history. Skirting round the subject I get the impression that a degree in history now entails three years indoctrination in the hatred of Israel. If I stray onto contiguous topics, emotion visibly wells up in him to the point where he appears about to either burst into tears or an explosion of vituperation.

In the manner of my asking an agony aunt, I beseech our Melanie do tell me, how can I extend a bit of enlightenment to such victims of brainwashing without simply alienating them?

My job ( Im not telling ) involves guiding people, but even I am flummoxed by the cunning "blocks" to reason and fact that three years of indoctrination in irrational prejudice by cunningly intelligent academics have created.

Dixon

patricia
November 24th, 2008 1:30pm wrote

"It was UK/US that killed off Iran's first nationally elected President, installed the tyrannical Shah and armed Sadam to the teeth to kill more than 1 million Iranians."

No Patricia, this is just another media lie repeated endlessly until people think it is a fact. Saddams arms suppliers were the USSR and FRANCE! The US did not sell one single weapon to Saddam ( except a small number of M109 howitzers ). Name one. You can scoot about the internet forever but you wont find an example. There was none. The US didnt sell Saddam even so much as a tank, a rifle or an airplane. France, on the other hand, supplied, among other things, the AMX30 battle tank which was Saddams "best" and armed the Republican Gaurd. They also armed Saddams air force with Dassault fighters and bombers. One of Frances reasons for opposing the invasion was that Saddam still owed them many billions of dollars. Even now, the French government is still trying to extract that money from the present government of Iraq.

Most of Saddams arsenal nonetheless came from the USSSR, mostly for virtually free. Including most of his tanks ( T62, T72 ) armoured infantry vehicles ( BTRs, BMPs ) artillery, aircraft ( even Mig 25s ) guns ( AK47s )etc, etc, etc.

The lie that the US and Britain armed Saddam is just that. A shame faced utter lie.

Dixon

Patricia also wrote:
"Israel has no entitlement to be the only middle east power with nuclear weaponry. It has a right to defend itself from Iran, as does Iran from a belligerent Israel."

Again, this is another trope tirelessly repeated by veiled anti-semites, that there is a moral equivalence to be respecet. No, the point about Israels nuclear weapons is that they are never going to use them against us! Whereas Im sure plenty of higher ranks in the Iranian revolutionary gaurd would love to sail a nuke into the port of London inside a freight container, among hundreds of others on a cargho ship. It would be that easy for them to use their nukes against us.

And as for lefties suddenly telling us Iran needs nuclear energy...whilst they continue to campaign against our use of nuclear generators...well how utterly idiotic is that!

David Lindsay

How, exactly, is Iran a threat to Britain? Not Israel, Britain?

Robbit

Well said Dixon!

It is just so utterly unbelievable that useful idiots like patricia swallow all the bloody lies of the the Wests own internal anti-Westrern media.
Unvbelievable. a hard reckoning is on the way.

Robbit

Dixon... indeed it would seem that virtually any degree in any humanities subject, not just history, amounts to "three years indoctrination in the hatred of Israel"... and Western civilisation generally.

john

"How, exactly, is Iran a threat to Britain? Not Israel, Britain?"

I'm sure our Navy will be able to answer your question.

winston

Help us change the Iranian regime

Davidka

yes grumpy i'm with you on this. Since my return to the UK i have had to listen to this drivel from the university educated leftists who are far more vociferous in their hatred of anything Israeli than any of their peers in other European countries.
So the queation i am asking now, is why it is in Great Britain that one finds the worst extreme prejudice agianst the Israelis?
Is it the the universities have been hijacked, is it a form of tribalism in which frustrations or inadequacies are excised through such awful prejudices?
or is it the feeling of togetherness that permates a tribe that share the same hatreds?

Dixon

David Lindsay
November 24th, 2008 2:50pm
2How, exactly, is Iran a threat to Britain? Not Israel, Britain?2

obviously another person who doesnt read other peoples comments yet asks rhetorical questions...already answered. in the very previous comment i had suggested that ..."Im sure plenty of higher ranks in the Iranian revolutionary gaurd would love to sail a nuke into the port of London inside a freight container, among hundreds of others on a cargho ship. It would be that easy for them to use their nukes against us.2

Now, if you have bothered to read this, maybe you willtell us exactly how this might be prevented?

Dixon

Ive just checked my own comments. eek. My typing is terrible and my shift key only works when it feels like it!

My spelllling ( im not making that up ) of English never was good, but "USSSR". Eeek!

John

I notice that St James Church in Piccadilly London has a "mock carol" service organised against Israel and supposedly in support of Bethlehem. The church should be ashamed of themselves.

HarleyDavidson

How is Iran a threat to Britain? First, should Iran try to nuke Israel then Israel would have to retaliate in kind. Ever hear of nuclear radiation? You know the kind that killed more Japanese than the bomb itself?

Now, if a nuclear exchange were to happen on our watch what do you suppose the rest of the Muslim world would do? Sit and watch the show or attack Israel? Does anyone here expect Pakistan to sit on the sidelines and just watch the fireworks? Or Indian not to be on hair trigger watching Pakistan? Does anyone expect the Russians to let their proxies Iran and Syria get wiped out by Israel? Does anyone expect North Korea not to get frisky during the fighting? Or China? And if they get involved then the west gets involved.

Patricia wrote Iran is right. Right for what, Patricia? Threatening to wipe Israel off the map? Right to arm and support Hamas and Hezbollah ensuring an endless middles east conflict? Iran is right? About what, Patricia?

I ask you, Patricia, has Iran or Syria or Lebanon or Saudi Arabia or any of the other Muslim states ACTUALLY tried to negotiate a peace treaty with Israel? You know like Egypt? Who got back all its land by peace. Or like Jordan who is at peace with Israel and can make water treaties and the like?

BTW, there is no such thing as an historical Palestine people. Perhaps you might recall the west bank was under the control of Jordan after the Brits pulled out and Gaza was Egyptian. Before the Brits the land known as Palestine was under Turkish control.

The Roman Empire conquered Israel and there were no Palestinians there at all. None! Not one! Zilch! Nada! Read a history book and see for yourself, idiot!

Suppose, we use the Muslim example on the rest of the world were conquest has taken place. For instance, maybe Native Americans can cry like Muslims and get better press to give back their land. Then there's Australia and New Zealand natives who could learn to cry better as well.

Are you with me, Patricia? Perhaps Native Americans should sue Britain and France and Spain and the Dutch for "war Crimes" and genocide. Especially Britain is at fault as Britain is the main historically culprit in North America and the native Americans who still pay the price.

Are you with me, Patricia?

Straydingo

The following link will take you to an interesting article on what we might expect to happen if Iran does not change it's current course:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/paul-sheehan/israeli-hawks-ready-to-fly-on-iran/2008/11/23/1227375056994.html

victoria williams

Patricia I agree with all your points but I suspect that they will be submerged by the denials from Melanies acolades.
Dixon - to suggest that Israel would never use its nuclear arsenal against us proves the point - its fine if the 'us' is those on Israel's side but surely that is exactly the issue. Its called self-defence isn't it?

Peter

Dixon: your answer to David Lindsay's question is not convincing. To go one step further, why are my taxes being used in the Middle East to further the overall strategic interests of a state far away and with which I and the massive majority of Britons have no connection? And if the foreign policy of my country turned against the interests - God forbid - of your country, would your country and its adherents have any qualms about threatening my country's interests? I doubt it. How do you spell your name, Dixon or Dicksohn?

Conservative Cabbie

Dixon

It was a good example of substance over style though. Good posts.

logdon

Here's a bit of hope. There is no doubt that if the world will not help the Jews of Israel the Jews of Israel will help themselves. Never again is the leitmotif and quite right too. Britain has a shameful record of refusing sactuary both pre and post war, Israel must know from those incidents which in the former case lead to how knows how many deaths that we as a nation are not to be trusted. A disgraceful situation which should send shudders down any right minded person but I guess better the devil you know. Here's one aspect of how it will pan out.

" Killing Ahmadinejad is an Option
by Gil Ronen

Moshe "Boogie" Ya'alon, a likely candidate for Defense Minister under a Likud-run government, was quoted by an Australian newspaper this week as saying that the option of assassinating Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad must be considered.

"We have to confront the Iranian revolution immediately," Ya'alon said in an interview with The Sydney Morning Herald. "There is no way to stabilize the Middle East today without defeating the Iranian regime. The Iranian nuclear program must be stopped."

'We have to consider killing him'

When asked whether the options for action included a military strike against Ahmadinejad and the rest of the Iranian leadership, Ya'alon reportedly said: "We have to consider killing him. All options must be considered."

However, an aide to Ya'alon denied this quote.

Ya'alon spoke to several Australian journalists in Jerusalem. According to another report on the conversation, which appeared in the Australian, Ya'alon appears to be envisioning a two-staged attack: "Ya'alon said that if Israel were forced to resort to a military attack on Iran's nuclear program, there would need to be a follow-up=2 0to prevent the regime from rehabilitating itself," the paper reported.

Ya'alon said that regime change in Iran would be brought about by the Iranian people: "Israel needs to defeat the Iranian regime, not the people."

Ya'alon told the Herald that any military strike in Iran "will be quietly applauded by Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the Gulf states."

"It is a misconception to think that the Arab-Israeli conflict is the most important in the Middle-East. The Shiite-Sunni schism is much bigger, the Persian-Arab divide is bigger, the struggle between national regimes and jihadism is much bigger," he said. "And I can't imagine the U.S. will want to share power in the Middle East with a nuclear-armed Iran."

'US lacked stomach for Iran attack'

Ya'alon, who was Chief of Staff from 2002 through 2005, said Iran has been the main sponsor of terror in the region for many years, and that he was surprised that the United States chose to invade Iraq, which was a less of a danger.

"I was chief of staff during Operation Iraqi Freedom and I was surprised the US decided to go into Iraq instead of Iran," The Herald quoted him as saying. "Unfortunately, the American public didn't have the political stomach to go into Iran."

'Big stick'

The Australian reported that Ya'alon advocated "a two-pronged approach" for defeating jihadism: "From top down, using a big stick. From bottom up, using education."

The former IDF chief said that Islamic jihadists in Iran and elsewhere believed they were on a roll: They saw Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000, its withdrawal from Gaza and the 2006 Lebanon war as victories. He added that it was time to fight back.

Joe

Would David Lindsay consider the kidnap and torture of Royal Navy personnel to be a threat to Britain? Or is that insufficiently exact for him?

derek

When you don't have logic, make it a right vs left issue.

steve

So some Iranian hack claims that an opinion poll would find a majority of Britons saying Israel is the main threat to the region and this makes it a fact? Why not decry Iranian propaganda instead of using that very propaganda to lash out against the British media and the elite whoever they may be?

Anthony

Says patricia: "Iran is perfectly entitled to have nuclear energy."

It isn't after 'energy', Patricia, it's after the bomb. It just pretends to want energy. It's what we call propaganda and they call taqqya.

"Its oil will run out. What is it meant to do thereafter?" Its oil is nowhere near running out, Patricia. Moreover, we're not talking an Arctic climate here. They don't need to turn the heating up like we do.

"Iran is perfectly entitled to protect itself and its assets against the UK, US and Israel, given recent history."

Iran isn't protecting anything, it is a leading aggressor in the effort to bring about a global Islamic Caliphate, the showpiece of which will be 'wiping Israel off the map'.

Go and have a look at your map, Patricia and you'll see just how tiny Israel is. All it wants is to be left alone to that thimble on the map. Iran, on the other hand, wants the whole globe under the rule of Islam. That's the difference between Israel and Iran.

Pete Hoskin

Simon: You're right, Grumpy the Springbok's comment shouldn't have made it through the net. It has now been taken down, as has your comment in which you quoted it. Apologies.

Dixon

victoria williams
November 24th, 2008 8:10pm
"Patricia I agree with all your points but I suspect that they will be submerged by the denials from Melanies acolades.
Dixon - to suggest that Israel would never use its nuclear arsenal against us proves the point - its fine if the 'us' is those on Israel's side but surely that is exactly the issue. Its called self-defence isn't it?"

No, its called "knowing who your friends are".

And by the way, I find it detestable that you use the word "denial", as in "holocaust denial", to yourself evade recognition that the people of Israel are the victims.

How arroigant, you think your position is a legoitimate "view" ( not actually just the parroting of rehearsed "talking poiunts" ) yet dismiss all other views out of hand as "denia;l". Not a little disgusting.

Indeed, my response to Patricia comprised of facts, setting straight her parroting of daft ill-informed lies.

Dixon

Peter
November 24th, 2008 8:14pm
"Dixon: your answer to David Lindsay's question is not convincing. "
WHY? Oh why? Oh why? Why is it not convincing. Do you not think there is enough room in a shipping container to hold even a bomb fabricated by Mediaeval throwbacks?
Tell me, why is it not convincing? Why?

Otherwise, it remaions a perfectly good answer to the earlier question "How can Iran be a threat to us".

The rest of your attempt to change the subject fails to cut any mustard either, hence your need to append a silly schoolground name-calling at the end.

The behaviour of a child.

Dixon

Peter
November 24th, 2008 8:14pm
"To go one step further, why are my taxes being used in the Middle East to further the overall strategic interests of a state far away and with which I and the massive majority of Britons have no connection? And if the foreign policy of my country turned against the interests - God forbid - of your country, would your country and its adherents have any qualms about threatening my country's interests? I doubt it. How do you spell your name, Dixon or Dicksohn?"

Ive tried to understand what this Peter is actually struggling to say, but as yet, it remains an opaque mystery. Anyone got any idea?

Dixon

derek
November 24th, 2008 9:30pm
"When you don't have logic, make it a right vs left issue."

I havent noticed anyone doing that yet. Right Vs Left is not merely "two dimensional", it is quite literally "one dimensional"!

Dixon

...Oh I geddit! Several references to "lefties". Thats a term used to identify a social tribe. It doesnt mean we are reducing it to a "left right issue", which would mean a doctrinaire reductionism into terms of a mono-dimensional ideological distinction. Me, for example: I am Id say a "libertarian". Right leaning people call me "left" and left leaners call me a "fascist". I know which I prefer, but the point is, I dont conform to any tribe. Yet there definitely are such tribes. Whether "lefties" or ...well, I dont know of another quite like it, except maybe fundamentalist Christians, who are qually meme-governed.

Zev Jabotinsky

Melanie, it's simple. Israel = jews, therefore they can do know right to the jew hating English elites and media. Just as in world war II, the British elites flirted with Hitler and admired his jew hatred. They can't help it, it has been bred into Christian European blood for 2000 years.

An American

The American press did a great job of electing Obama. They literally set out to brainwash the US public. Obama easily received 50% more positive press than McCain. There was a constant barrage of Obama the 'Saint'...
What I believe some of you have missed is that Melanie is trying to convey how certain people/entities can sway the direction and the thought process of a country's people. For example, the US liberal press crucified President Bush. It was a 7 year lynching. I'll never forgive them and will no longer buy their newspapers or watch their TV stations.
When the press was able to destroy and throw President Nixon out of the White House...I knew that we would live to regret allowing them to acquire that kind of power. The only solace I have right now is that many of the big newspapers like the NY Times and LA Times are in real financial trouble...their stocks are tanking. And ABC, NBC, CBS aren't too far behind...I'm looking forward to the day of their demise .

Mehran

Harley, don't waste your breath on educating that idiot Patricia. Her 'analysis' is so wrong as to leave you breathless for its sheer ignorance and stupidity. The CIA did not overthrow Iran's president in 1953, as it didn't have one. It had an unstable (politically and emotionally) prime minister who was beholden to the mullahs and the communists. America was fighting the cold war, and did not have the luxury of indulging people like Mossadeq, however democratically he may have been elected. Iran shared a vast common border with the former Soviet Union, and the US would have been completely foolish to allow one its most important allies become a communist pawn (we are talking about the days when America had real statesmen at the helm, as opposed to cheap showmen).

As for the 'tyrannical' shah, he was a far more pragmatic and far-sighted leader than the world has given him credit for. He started the nuclear ball rolling, so to speak, but only because of his long-term concerns of a post-oil Iran not being able to meet its energy needs. The world had nothing to fear from a nuclear Imperial Iran, as under the Shah, Iran had great diplomatic relations with most of the world, including Israel.

The people of Iran don't need the patronising pieties of the likes of Patricia with her primary school grasp of history. People like her need an excuse - any excuse - to hate Israel, and if it means using faulty logic, poor grasp of the facts and rubbish arguments to side with the barbaric mullahs then so be it.

After all, anyone who hates Israel has got to be a good guy, hasn't he?

Shy Guy

David Lindsay
November 24th, 2008 2:50pm:

How, exactly, is Iran a threat to Britain? Not Israel, Britain?

Asked and answered:

Senior Iranian official: Hey, let's attack Britain.

Miranda Rose Smith

I don't understand European Israel-haters, European suckers for Arab propaganda. Don't they realize that if Israel eve, G-d forbid, falls, EUROPE is next on the Islamofascist hit list?

Dave

So discussion and God forbid critisism of Israel is completely forbidden.
What a depressing thing for any journalist to write.

Ronnie

Mehran writes, 'America was fighting the cold war, and did not have the luxury of indulging people like Mossadeq, however democratically he may have been elected.'

The people elect a government, we get rid of it and install a 'Shah' who gradually alienates his 'subjects'. The local nutters build up support and overthrow him, bringing back their 'Messiah' from overseas. The local nutters then make their country a pariah, which in turn makes them even stronger.

Its not rocket science, you don't even need to be very liberal, elite or even Israel-hating to work it out because its a pattern that repeats itself over and over.

Perhaps if a little more intelligent analysis were applied by a few more people we might actually be able to avoid this idiocy.

Ronnie

Pedro Erik writes, 'But now, Melaine, consider other idiots, as from South America, where does not exist right-wing parties, because elite and people confound right parties with fascism.'

That may be because historically where right wing 'parties', including the armed forces, have been in government across South America significant numbers of people have disappeared, been tortured and executed in a variety of imaginative ways.

Its not rocket science, and you don't have to be very liberal, to imagine that many people in South America have had quite enough of that.

andy c

Too many of you seem to regard Israel as the last bastion of hope against the massaed battalions of 'Islamofascists'.

Don't you realise that it is Israel's behaviour, and that of its supporters in the West, that has created this new Islamic radicalism?

Why are you so blind to the needs for a peace process with your neighbours?

Why do you selectively ignore history - ie Patricia's points above on Iran?

Why do you try to justify your illegal occupations and settlements, the way you treat Palestinians, by suggesting that if you were benevolent the West Would Fall?

Too many half baked, self serving, suggestive arguments here.

michael

According to Raymond Joseph Douglas;

"Israel should act in its own interest and damn what the rest of the world thinks".

Now that's what I call honesty.

No PR Spin about Israel's role as the Defender of the World's Civilisation in the fight against Islam.

No reference to questionnable Biblical history.

No attempt to justify illegal settlements or occupations.

Just plain simple, from the hip honesty. Good on you Ray. You tell it like it is.

patricia

Mehran

Your naivety is only matched by your nationalism.

Go read a book.

And Mod - why have you not put up the post I sent in response to Dixon's faulty historical analyis, where I explain the role of Churchill, Roosevelt, Ango Iranian Oil

And cite the National Security Council's pronouncement in 1983 that the US would do everything in its power to ensure that Iran did not win the war against Iraq?

phil

There are many passionate views that have been posted here and a number of you have written eloquently in response to the nonsense posted by patricia ,her record here over the past few years speaks for itself,and those like andy c -but really Harley .Dixon et al you waste your time with them -they are not interested in peace or sense only to bash Israel and with it the Jewish people -its in the blood and no amount of reason or facts will change their mind -I have tried it has never worked and never will -you have uneducated people who don't even know the difference between accolades and acolytes pontificating on subjects they know little about (yes victoria )I mean you . If Mr lyndsay cannot see the difference between Israel and Iran what chance do we have of a meaningful debate ,can he really in his wildest dream think that Israel would ever threaten Britain ?

The Israelis have always defended themselves because they have had to and will continue to do so regardless of the thoughts of its detractors -heaven help them if they needed to appeal to the good nature of those people .

Pedro Erik

Ok, Ronnie. It is true. South America had right-wing dictatorship. We do not have the chance of left dictatorship like Pol Pot or Stalin that killed millions, except Cuba that proportionally killed and keeping arresting much more than other countries in the region.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Dave: Since when is criticism of Israel forbidden? Ms. Phillips has criticized Israel plenty.

GaryL

Repressive dictators have always hated Jews. It's an honour to be the target of that hatred. Who would choose to be their friends?

Si, N

PHIL
'can he really in his wildest dream think that Israel would ever threaten Britain?'

Now who is displaying their ignorance - or is it just the old selective memory at play here.

I remind you pp that Israeli terrorists have carried out innumerable terrorist attacks against British forces. In the interests of minimising the 'nonsense' that you protested against being posted here I suggest you retract what you said immediately.

patricia

phil,

Your criticism of others would be all the stronger if you could manage to accept just a tiny little bit of criticism for yourself, and for Israel.

- Israel's enemies are not going to change their tunes overnight in the face of manifest Israeli belligerence. Not until you allow a man of Rabin's wisdom to speak on your behalf, instead of those petty little hate peddlers from Likud and the Ultra Orthodox pit.

- The enmity Israel provokes regionally has its roots in Israel's continuing barbarity and disregard for international law or opinion. This hatred did not come from thin air. Every humanitarian organisation in the region, and a few notable bodies in Israel, forensically outlines Israeli brutality, for which nobody in Israel ever apologises.

The more Phillips shout "Bomb Iran Now", and isolationists like you say "Israel will continue to defend itself regardless of what others think", the more you condemn Israel, and the region, to an eventual damnation.

Must Israel take any steps to defend itself, or to defend what YOU like to think Israel should be?

andy c

That's really funny; -

"Iran should go ahead with its nuclear option regardless of what the world thinks"

It is funny because it highlights in direct terms how futile and stupid mel and phil and all the others are, when they say; "Israel should do whatever it wants regardless of what people think".

In Europe we have one community and one currency. Well, nearly. But zillions had to die in two world wars first.

How long will it take Israel and its neighbours to catch up / wise up?

phil

patricia-"Not until you allow a man of Rabin's wisdom to speak on your behalf,"

that is the first decent word you have ever written about Israel,but wasnt he killed by another lunatic who wanted no peace with anyone other than a religious fanatic like himself? -can you really think any of us condone that,and do you not see that you and people like your friend si,n are just the other side of the wheel -When you come talking peace and respect for those with different opinions to yours we will debate with you but not until .

Anthony

"Don't you realise that it is Israel's behaviour, and that of its supporters in the West, that has created this new Islamic radicalism?"

No, Andy C, the cause of Islamic radicalism is Islam.

All you have to do become an Islamic radical is to either effect to the letter - or help to effect to the letter (often surreptitiously under the code of taqqya) - instructions such as these: "Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate."

What has Israel, or any other set of 'unbelievers', done to inspire that?

stanley Jerusalem

Titanic; deckchairs...

Si, N

pp, still waiting for a retraction

Si, N

Whatever Miliband has to say on this subject will be rejected by any sensible person - to quote Melanie Phillips from elsewhere: 'Miliband’s remarks have nothing to do with international law, history or the truth, which he has misrepresented and repudiated, but with dirty and shameful politics'.

Thing is, if the dirty politicking in this instance is given credence - as Philips is happy lend it - the prospects for the future are decidedly grim.

Take the U.S. National Intelligence Estimate - Nov 2007 - 'We judge with high confidence that Iran will not be technically capable of producing and reprocessing enough plutonium for a weapon before about 2015'.

Or the IAEA - May 2008 - 'It should be noted that the Agency has no information - apart from the uranium metal document - on the actual design or manufacture by Iran of nuclear material components of a nuclear weapon or of certain other key components, such as initiators, or on related nuclear physics studies'.

Scott Ritter correctly paraphrases the warmonger's stance: 'it's not up to the inspectors to find the nuclear weapons program. It's up to the Iranians to prove that one doesn't exist…why do we go down this path? Because you can't prove a negative'. True - anybody doubting Ritter should review what he said before the Iraq fiasco and take heed. Initiating a similar war of aggression against Iran will have a devastating impact - and yes, you may find that your safe European homes are a lot less safe than hitherto.

Now then Dixon, quite the giddy little gadfly aren't we? The prospect of liquidating all those 'Mediaeval throwbacks' seems to have you panting in delight.

A couple of things: 'Mediaeval throwbacks'? Nice little coinage you use there - have you always been so happy to flaunt your racist character. Pray tell, are these 'Mediaeval throwbacks' akin to 'untermenschen'? It sounds to me like a tried and tested routine you've got going on there - dehumanise your target and kill it with impunity and a clear conscience.

Btw, your tortuous shoehorning of the word 'denial' into an imagined slight against/about 'Holocaust denial' had me in stitches. But really, need the whole world suffer because the turmoil in your mind (much like the war that rages in Phillips' 'mind') deems it necessary for us to be collectively punished as a bi-product of your fevered imaginings.

Sergey

All useful idiots of the world will not help Iran when Likud return to power, with Zeev Zhabotinsky, Begin and Nethaniyahu at the helm and Moshe Yaalon as defence minister. Wait three months and see.

Ronnie

Yes Sergey, you are absolutely right. Bibi is the leader we've all been waiting for.

Chocs away! Cry havoc! Let slip the dogs of war.

I can't wait.

Zkharya

Patricia,

"Finally, wasn't it Mel who wrote in the JC - "Bomb Iran Now!" "

could you supply a link, or reference, please?

Barackobama

The problem is not what Iran intends to do, but what we intend to do about Iran. And the problem we have is that, after almost 30 years of trying everything from covertly supporting Saddam Hussein in his war with Iran in the hope he would bring down the mullahs to sending cakes to Iran's leaders to make them love us (both done incidentally by the administration of Ronald Reagan), we still don't know.
There is a simple explanation: there are, as every US administration from Carter to Bush has been forced to recognise, no choices in Iran that do not involve unacceptable pain to America itself.
There is no sign this impasse will be end under Obama. Sorry folks.

Adam B.

Yes Sin, some "hotheaded" Jews dared to attack the British army at a time when the British army was sending survivors of the death camps back to Germany, publicly flogging Jews and even hanging some who had fought in the British army in WWII in Acre prison. Funny how you call this "terrorism". Tell me, is it "terrorism" when a jihadist goes into a pizzeria and murders twenty completely innocent people - or is that "resistance"? You're so transparent!

Tony

Si, N, that National Intelligence Estimate report has the credibility of an Alistair Darling promise on economic growth - it even contradicts an earlier report from the same organisation.

Max Boot notes:

'What particularly concerns Gulf Arabs is the possibility that Iran could go nuclear - a concern unlikely to be erased by the ambiguous findings of the new NIE. While this NIE claims that Iran stopped its nuclear-weapons program in 2003 (in direct contradiction to an NIE finding issued just two years ago that "Iran currently is determined to develop nuclear weapons"), it concedes that "Iran's civilian uranium enrichment program is continuing." Such a "civilian" program could be converted speedily and stealthily to military use. As the new NIE notes, "Iran has the scientific, technical, and industrial capacity to produce nuclear weapons if it decides to do so."

'That thought fills Sunni Arabs with dread. "If we accept Iran as a nuclear power that is like accepting Hitler in 1933-34," warned one senior Arab official, using the kind of analogy that back in Washington would get him dismissed as a neocon warmonger.'

Sounds like the only 'fevered imaginings' on this blog are yours, Si, N.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110010968

Augustus

Iran says that it has recruited 52,000 walking muslim bombers (30% of which are women) since the start of their recruitment drive in 2004. Their purpose is to attack targets in America and Britain should the West decide to bomb Iran's nuclear installations. Recruitment is still ongoing. These suicide bombers were first seen in public in 2006 during a military parade. Dressed in olive green uniforms and wearing explosive girdles they marched through the streets. According to a Revolutionary Guard source, 29 targets in the West have been earmarked, and they are ready to attack as soon as the signal is given.

Iran is full of religious fanatics who believe that Allah
has reserved a special place in paradise for anyone who commits suicide in his name. President Ahmadinejad was himself one of the instructors of the Basidji children who were sent to blow themselves up in the minefields of the Iraq-Iran war to make a way for the military vehicles of the Revolutionary Guard. 450,000 Basiji children were sent to the front, and beforehand they were told that a mysterious phantom rider on a white horse would appear to them and beckon them on. They had at first sent donkeys and dogs into the minefields, but this strategy didn't work, because after the first donkeys were blown up all the others scattered. But with the Basiji children the mullahs didn't have that problem, the children marched dutifully through the minefields. The years of indoctrination had proved successful. Khomeini's culture of death is also Ahmadinejad's view of the world. He is a psychopath of the very worst sort, and like Hitler, is a master in mass manipulation.

Elizabeth

WTF is this from ‘Si, N‘?

“'Mediaeval throwbacks'? Nice little coinage you use there - have you always been so happy to flaunt your racist character.”

'Mediaeval throwbacks'. Yes. It was way back around then that this war on the ‘unbelievers’ got up its momentum. Why won’t they give it up?

‘Racist’? Since when was Islam a race? Islam is not in a person’s DNA. It’s a set of beliefs set down in words.

But, oh, yes, I keep forgetting that you’re in denial that this is to do with a set of ideas.

That’s why you tried to smear someone else as being intolerant when they weren’t intolerant at all. And how you suddenly lost your tongue over something that was not just intolerant, but murderously intolerant: “Make war on the unbelievers…”

That’s what intolerance looks like, Si, N.

‘It sounds to me like a tried and tested routine you've got going on there - dehumanise your target and kill it with impunity and a clear conscience.’

Si, N, if you want to know what dehumanizing your target so you can kill it with impunity looks like, try this for size:

47.4: “Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks and when you have caused a bloodbath among them, bind a bond firmly on them.”

Goodness me. Merely being a disbeliever legitimizes dehumanizing you so you can be murdered and your murderer’s conscience kept clear because the murder is sanctified by a deity.

This is the sort of practise you profess to be interested in, Si, N. Somehow, though, I don’t believe you.

Dixon

He also says: " But really, need the whole world suffer because the turmoil in your mind (much like the war that rages in Phillips' 'mind') deems it necessary for us to be collectively punished as a bi-product of your fevered imaginings."

The phrase "collectively punished" suggests that it is fear that determines his craven willingness to surrender our freedoms.

Dixon

...notice also the prissy way he says "Now then, Dixon..." like he assumes he has succesfully dealt a fatal blow to each and every other person posting here before getting up the wind of righteousness with which to zap the offending "gadfly".

I think the arguments with those other people ought be considered ill attended and worthy of rethinking before drawing me into it.

Dixon

In any event, what is there that is "racist" about characterising somneone by their actions ( "mediaeval throwbacks" ). I stand by it. Their beliefs are Mediaeval. Whether they are Iranian Islamists or Christian "creationists". I wouldnt be happy for them to be running things either. The label "racist" is a disgusting stereotype.

Adam B.

Patricia (and Victoria) is a fine example of the poisonous mindset which, driven by a completely obsessive hatred of Israel and the west generally, supports the Ayatollahs and a fascistic regime which she herself could not bear to live under for five minutes. She declares "Iran is right." So forget the hanging of minors in public for "loose morals", forget the women who are buried up to their waists and then stoned to death by a baying mob, forget the Holocaust denial conference which intited members of the KKK, forget the holocaust cartoon competition (winning entry, Anne Frank having sex with Hitler), forget the discrimination faced by the Bahai, Zoroastrians and Jews, forget the support for Hamas and Hizbollah, both organizations openly advocate the extermination of ALL Jews in their charters), forget all these things about Ahmadinejad's Iran.

"Iran is right"?

Grotesque.

Si, N

Speaking of 'Useful Idiots'…

…thanks Adam B., you have in one post revealed the true extent of your 'poisonous mindset' and thuggish character.

So 'terrorism', when it's the handiwork of 'hotheaded' Jews, is easily explained away by you - you simply outline the grievance and conclude that violence is acceptable. Yet when the violence is perpetrated by 'hotheaded' Muslims there can in your view be no explanation and ALL Muslims must be punished. Hence, you and the other sheep-like warmongers call for the annihilation of Iran because you perceive its leadership to be 'hotheaded'. And please don't twitter on about Ahmadinejad threatening to 'wipe Israel off the map' - he never said it.

I find it a teeny bit galling that you, a self-professed supporter of terrorism, can accuse me of being a supporter of acts of violence against innocents in pizza parlours. Please point to a single instance of my supporting/explaining-away acts of violence against civilians. I expect you will attempt to wheedle your way out of it by carping on about intentions and unfortunate accidents - or making generally dumb remarks about 'moral equivalence' (read double standards).

Tony, this Max Boot geezer - he's another advocate of wars of aggression isn't he - not particularly level-headed at all is he really, with his ethos of 'American might to promote American ideals'.

Elizabeth, you contrive as much as you like petal - like Dixon with his vile formulations - you too will have innocent's blood on your hands.

phil

sin you are of course aptly named (by yourself) so you exhibit a certain amount of intelligence -surely enough to know that I would never engage with you,no not before hell freezes over -it is people like you who make the continuance of this impasse possible .Hatred is not on my menu my son .and I have no doubt it is ruining your life .

To some extent you are tolerated because you bring a little amusement to these threads ,but you must realise that few have any interest in your opinions ,even you must realise that .Some will enter into arguments with you ,a waste of time as I see it ,but not me .

Those that come here with differing opinions about Israel,s policies receive replies ,and debate takes place ,but not when hatred is the main purpose of the post ,so this pp as you like to refer to me as (previousposter , for those that are not intimate with sins humour ) is signing off with you -call me again if hell freezes over .pp

Si, N

Pp states that he will not engage with me whist engaging with me - such is the level of melunit logic.

logdon

Lets face it Israel is damned whatever in the eyes of Patricia and her cohort of antisemites who disguise the bigotry with cod erudition. This is the truth of the matter as this visceral hatred feeds into public consciousness and increasingly strident Muslim sensibility alike. What are the police doing because you can bet your bottom dollar that if the converse was to happen in Brick Lane all hell would be let loose.

Anti-Semitism Arrives in Golders Green

by Hana Levi Julian

'(IsraelNN.com) Anti-Semitism has begun to rear its ugly head in northwest London’s Jewish neighborhood of Golders Green.

Jewish students are increasingly being targeted by rock-throwing hate-mongers, according to a report published in The Jewish News. Concerned parents have organized a private bus to transport their children in order to keep them safe from the daily attacks on their way to school.

At the Hendon Park Café, vandals scrawled “dirty Jews” and a swastika on the walls of the eatery. A sketch of a gun and the word “kill” was scrawled alongside it as well.

The unsightly vandalism stunned the upscale neighborhood, including the outraged café owner, Jason Ezekiel, who told The Jewish News, “I was shocked when I saw it… I feel I’ve done something nice for the community. I feel, why target me? They did it at night in an area where they wouldn’t be seen. It was a cowardly act.

“I’ve lived in Golders Green all my life and this is the first I’ve seen of anything like this,” Ezekiel added. “Even the police officer I was speaking with said he hasn’t seen this kind of vandalism in many years.”

As in Israel, however, the incident was not allowed to disrupt business, nor did it remain visible for very long. Ezekiel said the graffiti was painted over by mid-afternoon, as soon as police had come and photographed the evidence, saying, “we didn’t want to encourage the people who did this; we didn’t want them to feel powerful.”

Local authorities strongly condemned the “disgusting incident of racist graffiti” in a statement issued by Barnet Police spokesman DI Alison Turner that appealed to the public to come forth with any information about the perpetrators.

phil

Adam B.didn't know you were a thug:) I think the lad has taken a turn for the worse .and Dixon,s turned into a pharmacist-Elizabeth he likes you really .its just his way :) and finally Tony ,you need to write in very simple language to him-you know kicking K,s and such -well I did say he is amusing -of sorts .OK I will get back to serious stuff after an interlude for amusement

phil

anyone know what melunit means -I have looked everwhere ,cant find it -maybe that is what his problem is ,wires in brain disconnected-Adam B you understand this guy better than me what do you make of it ?(lol)-oh I think I had better go and do something useful now

From Websters -they have him worked out .
" The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search bar above."

Suggestions for melunit:
1. melanite 2. melilot
3. manliest 4. maloti
5. Maronite 6. mellitus
7. melanites 8. moonlight
9. Malinois 10. Menotti
11. manually 12. mannitol
13. melanocyte 14. Mullerian
15. Molina 16. moonlit
17. Mennonite 18. melanotic
19. malignity 20. manumit

Tony

Si, N, it’s not Max Boot’s fault if the National Intelligence Estimate extinguishes its credibility by contradicting itself.

It’s not Max Boot’s fault if a Sunni Arab tells him: "If we accept Iran as a nuclear power that is like accepting Hitler in 1933-34."

Adam B.

Si,N, me again. Yes, of course you completely missed the whole point of my comment, so consumed in your irrational, obsessive hatred of the Jewish state. It is you who makes no distinction between deliberately targeting civilians and targeting military personnel (the former are terrorists, the latter are guerrillas - words often confused by the morally bankrupt of the left such as yourself). So would you say that Hamas and Hizbollah are terrorists, seeing as you are so outraged by the "terrorists" (your word) of 1948, just after 6 million Jews had been murdered? If not, why not? And when on earth did I say Muslims "must be puinished"? Please learn how to read. I look forward to your next rant. It always makes me smile.

Adam B.

Yes Phil, I'm a thug - not the neo-nazis of Hamas and Hizbollah mind you (SiN would NEVER describe such sweet innocents like them in such terms), no, it's me, for writing a comment in a blog which he didn't like. Previously, he called me a "cowardly barbarian." He's a real charmer!

Si, N

No A dumB, I got the point loud and clear - in your view, any violence is ok when perpetrated by Jews.

Never thought I'd say such a thing to a melunit - but thank you for your honesty.

phil

Adam are you a melunit too? cant find it in any dictionary :)ah well I suppose a pp cant have everything lol

Elizabeth

Si, N, you start calling me petal and then bang on about me being contrived!

And then you moan about ‘vile formulations’. It’s not my fault, Si, N. Those are the words of Allah, according to Mohammed. This is what drives Ahmadinejad’s agenda.

And you say I “too will have innocent's blood on your hands”.

Since when have I called for innocents’ blood on my hands? You’re confusing me with someone else. Let’s spell it out for that little brain of yours again:

47.4: “Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks and when you have caused a bloodbath among them, bind a bond firmly on them.”

Adam B.

Sin, I also see you're a misogynist, calling Elizabeth "petal." Not used to people disagreeing with you, are you?

Adam B.

Sin, you clearly have not got the point Let me ask you again, and answer these two questions directly
1. - do you condemn Hamas and Hizbollah? Would you label them as terrorists, seeing as you are quite happy to use the word elsewhere?
2. - Is deliberately targeting civilians and military personnel morally equivalent?

phil

sin just to show you i can be nice try this site you will love it -all of you will too

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=njhYhOd8Qyo&feature=channel

Dixon

Si, N
November 26th, 2008 11:18am
" Pp states that he will not engage with me whist engaging with me - such is the level of melunit logic."

No, he didn't "engage" with you, he made an assertion, lets call it a "fatwa" shall we.

He had to do that in order for the status Q Vivendi reach your awareness. Obviously. So really its you, Sin, who needs some logic.

Adam B.

Phil, I've asked him before what a melunit is, but he failed to elucidate. I think he speaks a different language altogether - it's called HATE. Pretty unpleasant stuff directed against several bloggers - he thinks he's making his point forcefully (ie it's all the Jews' fault), but any objective reader can see that the violence of his language betrays the violence and hatred in his heart.

Adam B.

Sin, when did I say Muslims "should be punished"? Still no answer...

phil

Elizabeth he is being nice to you -better a petal than a melunit -whatever that is -I,M SURE THAT IS NOT NICE !chin up Adam we will survive .

Dixon

Si, N
November 26th, 2008 1:07pm
"No A dumB, I got the point loud and clear - in your view, any violence is ok when perpetrated by Jews."

This statement is pure and undiluted anto-semitism. Right up there with Goebbels Greatest Hits. Moderators, you've omitted several of my posts, are you keepiong an eye on this Sin person.

All he does is scream abuse at people anyway. Prates of "logic" and his superior "intelligence" but hasnt encountered the concept of Ad Hominem.

Laura

There is nothing that Si, N wonâ™t try to spin is there?

He says Adam B has said: âśALL Muslims must be punishedâť - yet thereâ™s no evidence to support this at all.

So he makes up things that havenâ™t been said at all and then denies things that have been said.

Says Si, N:

âśAnd please don\'t twitter on about Ahmadinejad threatening to \'wipe Israel off the map\' - he never said it.âť

Yes, he did say it.

Only it got to be so embarrassing for useful idiots like you that two of them Jonathan Steele (The Guardian - where else?) and Juan Cole set about trying to pretend he didnâ™t say it.

We see how just how phoney their argument is here:

\'Translators in Tehran who work for the president\'s office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad\'s statement, including a description of it on his Web site (www.president.ir/eng/), refer to wiping Israel away. Sohrab Mahdavi, one of Iran\'s most prominent translators, and Siamak Namazi, managing director of a Tehran consulting firm, who is bilingual, both say \"wipe off\" or \"wipe away\" is more accurate than \"vanish\" because the Persian verb is active and transitive.\'

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/011895.php

Dixon

Elizabeth. I thought your post last night was good but that you ought really make your source explicit when quoting Sutrahs at someone like "Sin". Otherwise, as has become clear, because he hasnt read the Koran, as we have, he wont understand that you are quoting from it.

Ive found over the years that in these disputes with the wrong-headed that you should not deploy any kind of subtlety. They just dont get it. Indeed, a TV producer taught me many years ago that...particularly for the benefiit of people like Sin, one must observe the broadcast medi rule of "KISS"..."Keep It Simple, Stupid".

Dixon

...I meant of course, Surahs, thats my typing again!

Si, N

Elizabeth, I attributed the 'vile formulations' to Dixon - do keep up.

Also, you seem to think that I am responsible for, or support those dodgy passages you keep citing.

They sound like the usual hellfire and brimstone nonsense that often emanates from those with peculiar religious beliefs.

I'm more concerned with the very real hellfire that the warmongers (would you support a nuclear strike on Iran?) want to rain down on the entire Iranian nation.

I could of course parry with a list of despicable quotes from zionists - there's a lot of that about - the thing is, there's an awful lot of evidence of the zionists actually actioning their horrid agenda - pace the ongoing occupation and ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

Si, N

Laura (cipher) - I repeat, he never said it.

phil

Ok guys we don't have to make more of a fool of him than he has himself ,we have had our fun and he is doing the best job himself -I am sure he realises the stupidity of his words but he is just plain stubborn -He has traditionally backed himself into a corner and he is usual finished off by either me or Adam when he has no answer whatsoever.I seem to remember him making a fool of himself as usual this summer with ridiculous allegations about Hayarkon Park near TelAviv -he disappeared in a hurry when his nonsense was revealed ,but that is par for the course ,so why don't we let him be ,he is a waste of our time .

Adam B.

Sin, still waiting for those answers... they're really not difficult questions. Your silence reveals everything one needs to know about you. Phil, I think he senses he's on a losing wicket...I just can't wait to see what he says next!

Dixon

Im still waiting to hear why my response to "how is Iran a threat to us " ( a nuke in a freight container shipped to London ) is "unconvincing".

Dixon

Si, N
November 26th, 2008 2:16pm
" Laura (cipher) - I repeat, he never said it."

He's like O'Brien in 1984: "I repeat, I have eleven fingers".

Doesnt matter what he repeats, parrot - like, the earlier commentor actually disproved the contention. O'Brien doesnt have eleven fingers and Old Me Dinner Jacket DID say he wanted to wipe Israel off the map ( like a stain ).

Dixon

phil
November 26th, 2008 2:42pm
"Ok guys we don't have to make more of a fool of him than he has himself ,we have had our fun and he is doing the best job himself "

No, but its fun to wind him up and watch him strut!

Sin himself said:
"I'm more concerned with the very real hellfire..."

Being launched from Predator UAVs over Pakistan, to marvellous effect, almost daily. LOL!

Si, N

Pp, when you say you are going to 'do something useful', do you mean compiling lists like this:

'1. melanite 2. melilot
3. manliest 4. maloti
5. Maronite 6. mellitus
7. melanites 8. moonlight
9. Malinois 10. Menotti
11. manually 12. mannitol
13. melanocyte 14. Mullerian
15. Molina 16. moonlit
17. Mennonite 18. melanotic
19. malignity 20. manumit'

?

GaryL

"... the ongoing occupation and ethnic cleansing of Palestine."

Palestinians have been increasing in numbers - that's a very strange type of ethnic cleansing.

The only valid claim of ethnic cleansing is the decades long attempt to get rid of all the Jews.

"... occupation .." ??? - Yes - the Israelis get things done - they're occupied, they have occupations. Is that a crime?

There's some really semantically disadvantaged people on this blog.

Si, N

A dumB, my silence merley reveals that I haven't said anything about a particular matter.

Conversely, the post in which you champion terrosism carried out by Jews reveals all we need to know about you.

Cheers

phil

Dixon ,Adam look at himat 3.36 looks like he has blown a gasket :)

Si, N

GaryL, one would need to go back to basics to deal with your pathetic remarks - I can't be bothered.

Suffice to say, the occupation and ethnic cleansing of Palestine continues.

Adam B.

Sin, this is truly pathetic. Every time anyone questions your bile, and you don't have an answer, you pretend that you're not answering as part of some great scheme, when in fact you simply don't want to say that yes, you think Hamas and Hizbollah are good guys, you have no problem with them blowing innocents up, that it's terrorism when it's Jews (against military personnel) but not when it's jihadists (against civilians). Even when exposed with false slurs against other bloggers (WHEN did I say Muslims "should be punished"?) you won't admit your mistake. Go on, call me something else now - I really do enjoy it coming from you!

Dixon

I think its a big red herring to quibble over who is or is not a "terrorist". Thats why the "War on Terror" is so misnamed. Terrorism is a tactic, not an opponent. Just about everyone who has ever gone to war has used terrorism in some form or other. Its acknowledged as the legitimate attempt to undermine enemy "morale".

The real issue is, what do you believe in. If you think that a woman is worth one quarter of a man and its fine to have children by 14 year old girls, then you can support the "Palestinians", the iranian theocracy and Hizb'Allah, et al. But if, likle most of us, you think such attitudes are disgusting and Mediaeval, then you should regard such entities and groups as a legitimate "enemy". We are at war with them, because they, through the institution of a party called the "Muslim Brotherhood", founded in 1930's Egypt, long before modern Israel existed, have declared it upon us. It was articulated by their ideologue Sayyid Qutb during WW2.

Its not about "The West" versus an oppressed people. Its about Modernity, being attacked by a people who are oppressed by their own Mediaeval belief system. The slaves of the Mullahs are their followers.

It is a war, because they are struggling to kill us on our streets, buses and trains, etc. If "everythings fair in love and war" I dont oppose those people because they are "terrorists" but because of what they believe and want to put into effect.

Dixon

Si, N
November 26th, 2008 3:43pm
"A dumB,"

Thats just silly and childish.

phil

Dixon this is totally unfair -you know what you are talking about .and the other silly so and so,s don,t-how can that be right?

Ronnie

Dixon, Oldmedinnerjacket. Wonderful.

Augustus

A viable Palestinian state living peacefully alongside Israel will not be possible without disconnecting Iran from those groups who are attacking Israel on its behalf. This may require destabilizing the Iranian regime - hopefully through intensified sanctions against its nuclear programme, and by military force if sanctions fail. Without stopping the momentum of the Iranian led jihad against Israel the appeal of Hamas among Palestinians will intensify. As long as the international community tries to create a Palestinian state without seriously confronting the jihadists, Iran and its proxies will continue to make peace impossible, not by derailing negotiations, but by making those negotiations irrelevant.

Adam B.

Laura, thanks for the info. Now watch sin go uncharacteristically quiet.

phil

its not much fun without him is it -he does serve a purpose as a useful idiot ,but he blew a gasket at 2.36 yesterday -come on sin give us some more

Dixon

This thread is no doubt drawing to a close, but one last thought. If as Melanie contends in the above article, Irans wonks examine British opinion closely, then our efforts on forums such as this may actually count for something! Could it be that if enough people say enough things on enough web forums that the Mullahs will get the message...no, the British people are not a bunch of European "cheese eating surrender monkeys".

Ronnie

Or, Dixon, they may instead have seen a Wallace and Grommit movie where cheese seems to feature quite a lot.

Si, N

Dixon, I agree, the 'war on terror' was a misnomer - the tactics employed by this 'west' that you seek to spread globally was pure unadulterated murderous vandalism on an industrial scale.

You state that '(t)he real issue is, what do you believe in' - well clearly, that which I or anybody else believes in is immaterial - if it doesn't concur with what you believe in you will have us liquidated - and seeing as you have the biggest guns that shouldn't require too much effort.

So you want the world fashioned in your image do you? Well aren't you the tolerant one.

And what of this Western 'modernity' that you hold so dear. Would that be the same 'modernity' that sent 6 million of Jews to their slaughter?

The same 'modernity' that saw 23 million Russian deaths in WW2?

The same 'modernity' that saw 5 million Polish deaths in WW2?

The same 'modernity' which sees a baby battered to death over a 5 month period while the States' mechanisms turn a blind eye?

The same 'modernity' in which a father batters, rapes, and sires children to his own daughters over a 25 years period whilst the States' mechanisms turn a blind eye?

The same modernity in which rape, murder, paedophilia, and incest is rife. Are those the values you are seeking to uphold in the West - would you enjoy a wider roll-out of those horrors?

Would that be the same 'modernity' that favours wars of outright aggression - see the Iraq fiasco (over a million dead and counting) - 2 million of us took to the streets in the U.K. alone to voice our disapproval and loudly proclaim that we think 'such attitudes are disgusting and Mediaeval'.

I believe that it is obscene and not particularly modern or sophisticated to impose murderous sanctions on an entire nation - the Iraqi people endured 10 years of deadly sanctions which resulted in the deaths of 567,000 Iraqi children. I suppose you share the oh so modern Madeleine Albright's evaluation that '(t)he price (was) worth it'.

Also, are you aware that before the very modern sanctions period adult literacy in Iraq was 95%, education was free at all levels including tertiary, and 92% had access to safe drinking water. Iraq’s public hospitals were free and there were 9,000 doctors. Not so anymore - the pursuit of your 'war' and the furtherance of your 'modernity' has effectively thrust the country back to 'mediaeval' standards of education and healthcare.

A similar picture emerges in Lebanon where the oh so modern Israelis decided, in the words of the very modern Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, to 'turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years'. How civilised?

And here's a striking piece of 'modernity' for you to ponder: the economic sanctions imposed on the Palestinians following the democratic election of Hamas is a real breakthrough in terms of 'civilisation' - never before has such a disgusting measure been inflicted upon an occupied people. I suppose to you that's progress. As for the oh so modern 'mediaeval' siege of Gaza - is that an exemplar of the 'modernity' you seek to impose worldwide?

Pp, you are a senior poster on this blog - that you are impressed with Dixon's awful proclamations is sad indeed. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

phil

sin a good friend just emailed me with photos of old copies of the dandy ,the beano ,hotspur ,wizard .radio fun etc-I so wish I could send you them -it would make better reading for you than the rubbish that fills your mind-you continue to quote lies and insults ,and yes we do laugh and I SUPPOSE WE MISS YOU WHEN YOU DISAPPEAR BUT IT GETS RATHER BORING WITH CONSTANT REPETITION -oh there goes the cap lock again -how about a lecture on what happened in Mumbai yesterday -you know islamists killing innocents or maybe have a go at Sudan -There are loads of topics you could wax lyrical about ,so many slaughters that we may have missed by your heroes ,did you see the lunatics at Glasgow airport?

Well anyhow my hero was desperate dan .just in front of Wilson in the hotspur I think -but of course this was long before your friends decided to attack humanity and give you a cause to follow

I have to tell you that this pp is no senior poster ,flattered though I am ,and Dixon is worth a thousand of you (sorry Dixon ,don't want to be accused of exaggeration) and I need to confirm I am definitely not ashamed -if its any consolation sin I do believe you are speaking on behalf of others ,deluded though you may be and that I find better than the garbage that emanates incessantly from a woman known as the fragrant one who this week told us about her dream of making men have vasectomies and women having their ovaries cut out in order to continue getting benefits -even you are not as deranged as that .

You will note I have engaged with you again -I missed you !!

Dixon

Phil, everyone, I only came back to this thread because I saw the number of comments had gone up, ...when the topic was over, finished with, two threads old. So ive got to say it would have been best to have NOT replied to that silly boy, left him yabbiting away at an empty room instead!

Next time!

Adam B.

Sin, as you have such a problem with modernity, stop using your computer!

What a silly, senseless argument. I could give you an endless list of disgusting crimes committed in Sudan Somalia, Iran, Syria, Libya, areas controlled by Hamas and Fatah etc. Is the West perfect? Of course not, but it's a damn sight better than the backward ideologies which you so admire. By the way, still no answeres to those questions, including a completely baseless smear....hypocrite!

Neil Saunders

I have just read that the vile regime in control of this most unfortunate country plans to blind a man with acid.