The axis of appeasement

John Birch

Oh Melanie, what a simple world you live in where "time ... is fast running out" and even the current Bush administration is full of appeasers. Please run for office because being a Daily Mail columnist clearly makes you more qualified to comment on foreign policy than someone like Condi Rice with her PhD and years of experience on the world stage.

Ronnie

So, if I understand this correctly; the right are against us, the left are against us, the realists are against us, the centrist appeasers are against us and the 'true moderates (are) still more greviously undermined'.

I'm really sorry but, from this post, I have absolutely no idea who the 'true moderates' are. I hope we find out soon because time is running out very quickly...

Jim

The way the American economy is going, Obama will be lucky if he can answer the phones three years from now, never mind lead the free world. The west is bankrupt, kaput, we don't lead anything anymore. Get used to the idea, it's called facing reality.

Mladen Andrijasevic

John Birch sarcastically writes: 'Please run for office because being a Daily Mail columnist clearly makes you more qualified to comment on foreign policy than someone like Condi Rice with her PhD and years of experience on the world stage.’

Well, below is a list of 16 books on Islam, a part of the books on the topic I’ve read in the last few years. I am convinced that Melanie has read most of them while Condi Rice with her PhD and years of experience has not. That is why Melanie is more qualified and would not come up with a peace plan with the same ideas which have already failed at
Oslo I, Oslo II, Taba, Wye, Tenet, Mitchell, Zinni, Sharm El-Sheikh, Roadmap, Annapolis.

Ibn Warraq : Why I Am Not a Muslim
Ibn Warraq; Defending the West
Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Infidel
Bat Ye’or: Islam and Dhimmitude
Bat Ye’or: Eurabia
Bat Ye’or: Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam
Robert Spencer; The Truth About Muhammad
Robert Spencer: Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam
Serge Trifkovic: The Sword of the Prophet
Serge Trifkovic: Defeating Jihad
Irshad Manji: The Trouble With Islam
V.S. Naipaul: Among the Believers
Bernard Lewis: The Arabs in History
Bernard Lewis: The Middle East, A Brief History of the Last 2000 years
Bernard Lewis: What Went Wrong
Bernard Lewis: The Crisis of Islam

Stephen Fox

At least Melanie seems to believe in something, unlike some of the commenters here.

John Birch - we all have the right to comment on foreign policy. It's called free speech, and last I heard, we were prepared to defend that.

‘Jim’ – so now that the west is ‘kaput’, who is going to lead what you admit is still the free world? The UN, currently in the process of passing legislation outlawing said ‘free speech’, at least when it concerns anything islamic? Russia and China together?

Ronnie, you’re right, things do look very confused and bad for us. Isn’t that what makes people like Melanie valuable, that she holds onto values and self-respect, even when many are letting go?

The west may lose this fight. We may already have lost the will and the means necessary to win it, but that won’t be Melanie’s fault, and even if the defeatism apparent in the culture of contemporary Britain should turn out to be more ‘realistic’ than her courage, I know which of the two I respect.

David

People who use the word 'appeasement' are the same as those who use the words 'warmongers'.

Both lack any sense of nuance, and neither are types of people who I'd like to see leading a country.

Dixon

Jim
November 27th, 2008 12:09pm
"The way the American economy is going, Obama will be lucky if he can answer the phones three years from now, never mind lead the free world. The west is bankrupt, kaput, we don't lead anything anymore. Get used to the idea, it's called facing reality."

Earlier this year people like Jim were loudly trumpeting the "reality" of the end of oil ( as it reached $150 a barrel ). Now its dropped by two thirds in price.

The only important reality is sheer physical power. No matter what happens to the US economy, they remain more powerful than every other nation on the planet combined.

Those sort of people who think America is "dangerous" had better hope the US is not as economically kaput as they currently wax lyrical over the prospect of it being...because the wounded beast is always at its most dangerous!

With thousands of nukes.

Dixon

Condi ( bless her ) has a Phd...in Russian studies.

Byron in Wahroonga

***both lack any sense of nuance***

Yes, what we need is more nuance. But David, how much nuance will we need to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program?

David

"But David, how much nuance will we need to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program?"

Rather a lot if you want to do it effectively. That's my point.

Byron in Wahroonga

***someone like Condi Rice with her PhD***

Plenty of Brit university professors supported Chamberlain's appeasement policy, Birchy. Including some who weren't already on the NKVD's payroll. Has Condi's PHD helped or hindered her attempts to manage the threat from Iran?

Ronnie

Stephen Fox, yes retaining ones values and self respect are absolutely vital particularly when things 'seem' confused. The confusion is created amongst those who seek certainty, who wish the situation in the world was black and white, as some believe it once was.

I'm afraid it never was. It has always been a complex, wind-blasted desert of changing interests and alliances. You cannot analyse it accurately from a static position as Melanie tries to do. Sometimes she is absolutely right, other times she is completely outflanked by the facts. Then those who were friends become enemies overnight, everyone is against us... The clock is ticking.

That is when we get the literary equivalent of Melanie running, screaming, from the room. As above.

Byron in Wahroonga

***rather a lot if you want to do it effectively***

Can you be more specific? Do we need Chamberlain levels, Jimmy Carter levels? I'm wondering at what point Ahmedinejad will back down in the face our superior nuance capability.

Byron in Wahroonga

***the west is bankrupt, kaput, we don't lead anything anymore. Get used to the idea***

You sound pleased.

Verity

John Birch - Well, we can deduce from your writing style that you are not a columnist - even on the BBC or The Guardian - posting in disguise. Or perhaps you're that new blogger, Lisa something, who writes yards and yards and yards of sentences that are completely content-free.

Fact checking is all. "Here's a doozy of a statement: "being a Daily Mail columnist clearly makes you more qualified to comment on foreign policy than someone like Condi Rice with her PhD and years of experience on the world stage."

Condoleezza Rice is an academic and a concert pianist (she has performed with Yo Yo Ma, among others) and the ex-Provost of Stanford University.

She was taught at Stanford by Madeleine Albright's father, who, for God's sake, was a raving socialist.

She is also up to Olympic standards as an ice skater.

Clearly, she has a very high level of intelligence and drive, but she's a loner and she's a lefty.

Byron in Wahroonga

***the confusion is created amongst those who seek certainty***

Got it.

So with Obama's uncertainty about America's rightful place in the world, the West's future is in safe hands?

Aldamir

While I agree with much of Melanie's commentary on the Middle East, I think that the Iran focus tends to ignore the more worrying appeasement trends in Europe, where Putin is the recipient of an appeasement policy.

Russia is a key player in world affairs and Putin spends most of his influence providing cover for Iran and various other unsavoury regimes. The Russian veto is one of the main reasons why a peaceful sanctions based approach to Iran's nuclear problems is not working.

Europe has a vastly bigger economy and population than the sickly Russian kleptocracy, yet Europe, led by Italy and Germany, is bending over backwards to appease Russia. This includes delaying perfectly sensible measures to find alternative energy sources from Russian gas and oil.

Unfortunately the global warming superstition is part of this picture, as the EU wish to tie up European energy production in lots of red tape, while allowing the purchase of Russian fossil fuels with no environmental concerns about how they are produced.

Byron in Wahroonga

***all agree that the ‘centrist’ position to be taken by all sensible individuals is ‘engagement’***

A shame that some of these centrists weren't in Mumbai yesterday. They could have tested their engagement policy at the business end of an AK-47.

That's the trouble with these policies. The people who cook them up don't suffer the results.

Ronnie

Condi Rice is a lefty.

Did you hear that pin I just dropped?

And a concert pianist to boot.

Ronnie

Aldamar makes a very good point.

While we spend so much time messing about with Iran and the 'islamofacists', Russia stokes our confusion by giving our enemies just enough support to keep us busy. Hence the forthcoming joint naval exercises with Venezuela. Something else to worry the US with, while at the same time creating havoc in the Caucasus and the Baltic.

Now, that is nuance.

logdon

Condi must know that her head in the clouds policy on a two state solution is a no go, read the Hamas manifesto for a start. She is merely following in the ignoble steps of Carter and Clinton, the first being a loopy, god fearing hopeless optimist the second a man obsessed with his own power and legacy. Arafat denied them their moment of glory and as such Hamas will do the same. The US State Department defines Hamas as a terrorist organisation and also acknowledges that it is funded by both Iran and Saudi. The paradoxes immediately raise themselves when you look at both Clinton and Bush's affiliations and business interests embedded in Saudi. So hunting with the hounds and running with the hares is the order of the day and America vacillates with Condi on point. So on the subject of point what exactly is it? Melanie is therefore quite right. The US is playing a double game leaving the serpent head well alone whilst Saudi proxies and stooges do their dirty work and are therefore castigated. We'll hear no end to the approbation heaped upon the terrorists who are now devastating Mumbai yet not a peep against the controlling source. Whilst this head in sand approach may ensure the oil spigots remain open it also ensures that Islamic expansionism continues apace. One day the balancing act will attain critical mass (quite literally in the case of Iran) as Islam creep over reaches and our populations react. We are merely delaying the inevitable and pretty soon that situation will morph into something else entirely. Giving them Israel will not halt it, merely a staging post for yet more and a rallying cry for the Jihad. We live in interesting times indeed!

Kennybhoy

"If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to that moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

Winston Churchill

Verity

"A shame that some of these centrists weren't in Mumbai yesterday. They could have tested their engagement policy at the business end of an AK-47."

Ha ha ha ha ha! A nice, robust Aussie observation. And too right. I hope you're going to hang around here for a while.

Kennybhoy

PS Is there ANY chance that this sort of material by of Miss Phillips' might appear in the Daily Mail...?

Verity

Erica Duggan - "Stop moaning about the alleged 'Islamist conspiracy'".

1. No one is "moaning". Moaning is what one does when one can't find a parking place next to the supermarket door on a rainy day.

2. No one on these pages uses the leftist fantasy term "Islamist". There is no such thing. There is Islam and its adherents are called "Muslims".

3. We are not discussing "conspiracies". We are discussing a roadmap for world domination by Muslims.

I get the feeling you've stumbled onto the wrong blog.

Bill

Erica: what are you talking about exactly? You're very vague. Are you referring to the massacres perpetrated by the Bolshevik clique during and after the Russian revolution, the terrors of the gulags and the purges presided over by people like Genrikh Yagoda and his ilk, or do you mean something more recent such as the foundation of Israel and associated factors?

Barry H

Says Ronnie: "You cannot analyse it accurately from a static position as Melanie tries to do."

Eh?

The alternative is just to blow in the winds of fashionable opinion and then struggle even more to extricate yourself from those opposed to freedom once you realise where appeasement has led you.

Ms Phillips is right. We are now in a period of 1930s-style defeatism. The more pliable you look, the more emboldened they get.

There are some Americans who thought an Obama presidency would stop all this (some of them posting on The Times's website today). On the contrary, the Islamists have seen the fear in their enemies' eyes and know that this letting down of the guard provides an opportunity to land even harder blows. To their constituency, their cause now appears worth supporting because it is given credibility from - of all people - officials in the West.

And time is indeed running out. It ran out in the last 24 hours for many people in Mumbai.

If you are going to achieve the Islamists' agenda, you need your own momentum and an opposition too timid to properly get in the way of that momentum.

Today, Islamists from the government in Tehran to the caves of Afghanistan look at the pictures from Mumbai and say to themselves: 'Yes, we can.'

johndoe

"someone like Condi Rice with her PhD"

Oh please, grow up! Any fool can work their way to a PhD with their head up their posterior accumulating such narrow specialised knowledge,which is useless when it comes to the art of living...and surviving. I have not met one person with a PhD who I could call intelligent. Intelligence has nothing to do with learning specific skills..it is a gestalt perception of what is true and good and whole. Condi is a smart opportunist but an utterly useless dimwit and abject failure when it comes to serving freedom. To applaud or respect her is the acme of Pollyanish naivity and gormlessness. Probably the result of too much al-Beeb viewing.

logdon

Here's a classic from the Telegraph on Mumbai.....

'This is western conspiracy to bring down Indian economic superpower status. I cant believe people are falling for this Al Qaeda stuff all over again.
Posted by Mohammed Ali on November 27, 2008 12:45 PM'

So it's all our fault! Where to start when confronted by that? How do you explain that black is yes, black and white is amazingly, white? And, no I'm not talking race just the preposterousness of perpetual, pathological denial. It's as mad as Fred West blaming his victims yet there are those who whole heartedly believe this crap. Both Islamists and their useful idiot appeasers swallow the outragous defamations and walk hand in hand in total mutual delusion. Meanwhile a hundred innocent lives are snuffed out.

Ann

I'm very angry about the Jewish hostages taken at the Chabad Lubovitch centre in Mumbai. I'm also very angry about the two Israelis arrested recently in Thailand for drug smuggling. This targetting of Jews shows that these incidents were clearly acts of anti-semitism.

jim

Well, I would argue that the West has abandoned freedom at home in any case, so I don't think we could claim to be free anymore. I'm thinking of all the personal liberties that have been taken away in the last few years in both Britain and America.
I think we are seeing a power vacuum around the world today as American power wanes personally i find that frightening, but it looks like it's happening.
As regards peak oil, the fall in prices is only temporary. The IEA are forecasting a 9.1% drop in world oil production next year, the Cantarell field in Mexico, which supplies a lot to America has a decline rate of 28% I think. North Sea has fallen 50% since 1999. So I think we can say that we are at an energy transition point. However, I am not a pessimist, there was the recent discovery of the Patagonian fungus that converts plant cellulose to biodiesel. Obviously development work remains to be done. If it turns out to be as good as it sounds, we still have a rocky road moving from one fuel to another.
However, instability is growing again, as it did in the 70's. I think we can agree on that, but it's not something I'm pleased to see. I didn't mean to sound triumphant, I'm scared.

Peter

Ronnie: Georgia, backed by an unscrupulous US, created havoc in the Caucasus, initially pillaging, murdering and ethnically cleansing in South Ossetia, before the Russians intervened to put a stop to the bullying. This was ignored at the time by large parts of the Western media - including by the allegedly anti-American, anti-Israeli al-Beeb - but has subsequently been addressed. You need to recognise who the enemy really is.

John Birch

Barry H: Do you understand that there are divisions within Islam and that the faith as practised by Osama bin Laden is not the same as praticed by most Iranians? Do you know that many Sunni Muslim governments fear the power of Iran and in some ways feel more secure in the knowledge that Israel has nuclear weapons than if Iran had them? In other words, the world is far more complex and complicated than one would know from this blog.

Michael

'Condi is a smart opportunist but an utterly useless dimwit and abject failure when it comes to serving freedom'

erm...that doesn't make any sense.

Top effort there.

Ann

People may call me a racist for only being concerned about Jewish lives in Mumbai or for defending drug smuggling if perpetrated by Jews. But in these troubled times I think we need more Jewish racism as it is the only thing which will protect Jewish lives.

Ronnie

Barry H writes, 'Eh?
The alternative is just to blow in the winds of fashionable opinion and then struggle even more to extricate yourself from those opposed to freedom once you realise where appeasement has led you.'

No, that is not what I said. I refer you to logdon's excellent points about our leaders' relationships with the Saudi Royal family which have effectively hamstrung us for as long as I can remember.

We are not quite as weak as we think we are but we are greedy, we'll do anything for oil and huge defence contracts. And that is the basis of the two-state solution, which neither of the 'two states' in question actually wants.

I'm not talking about flapping about and appeasing, Barry H, I'm talking about really thinking and understanding the real roots of our problems.

Ronnie

Peter, I am perfectly happy to accept this straighforward version of events at face value. However, it would be wrong of me to pretend that the Russians did not set a trap for the hothead in Tblisi to fall into.

When Putin left the NATO conference in Bucharest earlier this year he seemed to be in a very weak position with both Ukraine and Georgia on the verge of becoming NATO members in the near future. This would be a significant strategic and psychological defeat for Russia in her 'near abroad'.

After the Georgian adventure and the West's shambolic response, with two regions now annexed by Russia, who seems in the stronger position now?

Not only does it seem like a bad idea to have the Georgians in Nato but to the Georgians, membership of NATO must seem worth less than they thought.

Ronnie

Louder Ann, I don't see anyone calling you anything at the moment.

Dixon

Peter
November 27th, 2008 3:40pm
"...Georgia, backed by an unscrupulous US,..."

You see, if anybody invades anybody, its always the fault of the US!

Pete Hoskin

Erica Duggan: I have taken down your earlier comment. It shouldn't have slipped through the net.

Dixon: A comment you made quoting Erica Duggan's comment in full hasn't been approved, for obvious reasons. Apologies.

Dixon

Pete Hoskin, perhaps she slipped in some way, but I thought it was pretty clear that that was what she was saying. Hence I understand your removal of the comment.

EC

Ann: "People may call me a racist for only being concerned about Jewish lives in Mumbai or for defending drug smuggling if perpetrated by Jews. But in these troubled times I think we need more Jewish racism as it is the only thing which will protect Jewish lives."

Wow, just WOW! That should wipe the self-satisfied smirk off Phil's fizzog. Welcome back!

EC

Mumbai? Have you lot been brainwashed by the BBC? It always used to be called Bombay when I was lad. PC,BAH HUMBUG!
Peking anybody?

Herbert Thornton

I feel almost as pessimistic as does Melanie. But at the same time, I'd rather wait a while before judging Barack Obama quite so harshly.

Even Mark Steyn has dropped a hint that Obama may act even more firmly than Bush and has just mentioned the closeness of America and India. Here are a couple of lines from Steyn's recent discussion with Hugh Hewitt, that touches on the extension of the jihad to Bombay -

"I don’t rule out, by the way, that this might be, insofar as it’s connected to Obama, it might be a preemptive response to his planned invasion of Pakistan, which should be taking place in two or three months time."

The full transcript is here -

http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/talkradio/transcripts/Transcript.aspx?ContentGuid=6eeda56c-fe82-415b-8993-b5b126dff3bb

Andre

Percipient as ever, Melanie and very welcome. Rather than see this as a struggle between the rest and the west I am inclined to view it more simply as a struggle between freedom and dictatorship, freedom under the law, freedom of speech, freedom to vote in audited elections, freedom to travel, to write poetry and swim in the ocean. I see these freedoms being opposed by the forces behind Islamic fundamentalism. I see this as struggle between right and wrong. I see freedom of religion as being under threat as much from the secular left as from Islamic radicalism. As we approach Christmas or at least advent I am reminded of the biblical verse where it says know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Is the truth to be found on our own personal Calvary - at least on the stony road to Bethlehem - the house of bread. I believe so, Christ said I am the way the light and the truth. Despite our concerns I believe good will ultimately triumph over evil. I hope this affords everyone a measure of comfort.

Augustus

Deterrence relies not on the presence of a country's weapons, but on its leaders who are capable of convincing their foes that they are willing to use them. If they smell fear, then deterrence is dead.

Herbert Thornton

Verity,

Thanks for reminding us that "Islamist" is a fantasy term. Unfortunately, in some countries - e.g. Canada - many people feel it prudent, when discussing atrocities like these in Bombay, to use words like "extremist" and "Islamist" in the hope that it will shield them from prosecution for promoting "religious hatred". In Britain, I gather that some people, instead of saying "Islamist terrorism" think that we should be even more mealy mouthed and call it "anti-Islamic activity".

However, I there is some hope that Canadians may partly regain the right to speak plainly. Since the B.C. Human Rights Commission decided not to penalise Macleans Magazine, the pressure on the Federal Government to repeal Section 13 of the Federal Human Rights Act has increased somewhat. In the meantime though, many people still feel threatened. The Rev. Boisson for example is still in danger of being imprisoned should he deliver a sermon or send an email hinting that he dislikes homosexuality.

Michael B

"... the anti-western left, the isolationist right and peace-process zealots all come together in common cause."

Bingo. That reflects so much that is happening in critical areas of foreign affairs; bloodless, weak-kneed triangulations => fundamental tergiversations.

The only place where analyses of M.E. affairs are more bloodless and more weak-kneed and deluded than at Departments of State is in academe, the preeminent cossetted, self-enamored environment wherein ideality is never forced to come into contact with reality.

And this from Eli Lake's piece:

"... the Israeli-Palestinian struggle was a symptom of deeper pathologies within the Islamic and Arab world, and not the underlying cause of Middle Eastern terrorism. Within the Obama administration, this dynamic is likely to be reversed. It may be the White House--and, more specifically, the likely national security advisor, James Jones --that will be the passionate proponent of peace processing. Or, as he told the newsletter Inside the Pentagon last month, "'Nothing is more important" to regional security in the Middle East than resolving the Israeli Palestinian conflict."

A more concise summary of "peace processing" muddledness and delusional feel-goodism would be difficult to find. It's all too common, the sentiment is promulgated almost universally via sundry media outlets, but it's the type of commentary one might expect from Britney Spears.

That's a caustic remark, but is more accurate than not.

Michael B

From Eli Lakes's piece, it is worth emphasizing Hillary Clinton's seemingly clear-headed appraisal of critical and fundamental aspects of the Israel vs the Sunni Arab cause aka "Palestinian" nationalism:

"... since becoming senator, she's been a persistent critic of Palestinian media and schooling, an issue that has traditionally been swept under the rug by the State Department and a central argument the Israeli right has used to warn against the delusions of the Oslo process. Clinton has described the teaching of anti-Israel views in Palestinian textbooks as "child abuse," and held hearings on the topic in an effort to get the Bush administration to do more on the issue.

"By focusing on the underlying tenets of Palestinian culture, Senator Clinton has in a way made common cause with the Bush administration hawks. While General Jones wants to take steps now to empower Abbas and his Fatah party to take over a Palestinian state, Clinton is asking if even the Palestinian moderates are ready to govern. At AIPAC's annual policy conference in 2005, she said: "How do we expect to have a democratically elected Palestinian government if their textbooks are still preaching such hatred, and this if we allow this dehumanizing rhetoric to go unchallenged? Because what is happening is young minds are being infected with this anti-Semitism, and that is going to run counter to what we hope can happen over the next years as we do work for peace and stability."

That analysis, from New York Senator Hillary Clinton, holds some promise in that it is particularly clear-headed as it addresses fundamental and pervasive aspects of that Sunni Arab culture, without diluting it in some triangulating, feel-good sense. Of course if that analysis is merely a result of Hillary qua New York politician, rather than a reflection of conviction, cause for concern remains. But it reflects solid, substantial and undiluted commentary nonetheless, thus is genuine cause for (ever watchful) hope.

Laurie Lee

Mumbai..used to be Bombay...landed there in the 60s on the way to Singers.Saw the biggest rat I'd ever seen in my life walking about on the airport tarmac.Thought it was a dog at first...a very large dog.Well a medium sized dog anyway.

Emmet Sweeney

Melanie is spot on, as usual. The "conservative" Daily Mail has been almost as anti-American (ie anti George Bush) as The Guardian over the past few years, with useful idiots like Max Hastings and Peter McKay all too ready to pronounce Bush the "greatest threat to world peace". The axis of appeasement runs deep indeed. The alternative apparently is too frightening to contemplate: namely to face the fact that we're facing a threat from a violent and totalitarian ideology (Islam) which is espoused by around a billion people.

Ronnie

Laurie Lee, do you realise that what you've written at 12:23 am could easily have been scripted, by John Cleese, for the Major in Fawlty Towers?

'Umpf, Germans...!'

tommy

Never mind Obama I just wonder how much appeasement is going on in the uk
1. the countries financial institutions need bailed out
2. Mr Brown has a jolly time begging from the saudis,even meets a former guantanamo inmate

who knows what agreements have been made-- Mr Brown is not the least gullible of our politicians.

3.A British barrister Stephen Hockman QC, a former chairman of the Bar Council, reportedly suggested that a group of MPs and legal figures should be convened to plan how elements of the Muslim religious-legal code could be introduced.

When I put together the above,I can make a connection--- I just hope that in this case 2+2=5

barckobama

US Middle East policy since 1945 has been reactive and, in total, largely counterproductive. After spending trillions and the loss of thousands of American lives, the US' position in the region is as potentially hazardous as it's ever been.
Just consider the record of US interventions. The US covertly supported the Egyptian coup that deposed the monarchy and brought Nasser to power (against British interests); the 1953 Iranian coup, which gave dictatorial powers to the Shah and eventually brought the Mullahs to power; the withdrawal of US and French troops from Suez in 1956 just at the point when the Nasserist regime might have been deposed; the 1962 coup in Iraq, which temporarily brought the Baathists to power, and the 1969 Libyan coup which brought Gaddafi to power (against British interests). The US sympathised with Saddam in his 1980 invasion of Iran in the hope it would bring down the Mullahs. From 1982 until the moment of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, the US provided overt support to Saddam in the form of financial aid and intelligence sharing (the UK thought lethal materials were being secretly supplied too and had people in Iraq watching what the US was up to).
Ronald Reagan co-operated with Saudi Arabia to finance, train and equip the people who formed Al Qaeda.
For more than 60 years, US presidents, administrations, officials, politicians and generals from the conservative (Oliver North secretly organised weapons sales to Iran) to the radical have floundered in the Middle East. The pattern is likely to continue.
What we see today are, in reality, unintended consequences, not the results of a plan. It's a cock-up, not a conspiracy.
But if it's a conspiracy of secret anti-Western forces at the heart of the West, it involved Ronald Reagan (and Margaret Thatcher), Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz and George Bush Jr too.

Byron in Wahroonga

Thanks for those kind words, Verity.

I'll certainly be hanging around, Melanie's insights are both fascinating and addictive. Only downside, the ADHD atheists, cultural cringers and appeasement fraternity that infest this otherwise delightful forum. I guess the more worthy the wall the more likely it attracts graffiti? For someone with an idealistic -perhaps even romantic - view of what Britain has to offer the world this blog is a place where I can also study the mindset of those holding those derailing that mission.

Archie

EC: quite right! I'll call Bombay 'Mumbai' when they change the name of their film industry to Mumblywood!
Verity: spot-on, as usual!

Byron in Wahroonga

***if it's a conspiracy of secret anti-Western forces at the heart of the West, it involved Ronald Reagan (and Margaret Thatcher)***

Uh huh. Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, in a 'conspiracy', against the West.

Y'know, I'm glad to be 'meeting' you online only.

Because on a public street, having to back away without breaking eye contact would be quite unnerving.

Barackobama

Byron
I do not believe Ronnie and Maggie were conspirators. My point is that US Middle East policy since 1945 has been very unsuccessful and will continue to be regardless of who's in the White House.

Peter

Do I take it that Jewish racism is approved of on this blog, given that my earlier post in that regard under the guise of 'Ann' attracted satisfied attention from some individuals? On past experience I suspect it is highly acceptable here. Your fellow blogger, Peter.

Dixon

Byron, very witty, made me laugh, but I think you misunderstood his point. The point he was making was the very one that the idea of such a "conspiracy" is ridiculous, therefore supporting his contention that UK-US foreign policy has been flawed by "cock ups" not conspiracy.

I would partly agree. But in my view its short term thinking that is the problem. Creating the "Majahadeen" in Afghanistan was short term thinking directed at the Soviets. At the time I thought it was disgusting. The war in Afghanistan was between Mediaevelists and...not Communism but Modernity. The US and UK then supported the Mediaevalists. They created a Golem. Now we are that Golems targets. However, although I thought, circa mid-eighties that the representation of the Mujahedeen by Western Media as heroes ( that was indeed the narrative ) fighting for freedom ( how bizarre ) was repugnant in itself, I never expected to see them launching attacks on us. Nor, obviously, did our leaders. For that, I think they can be forgiven. Even though I dont think it was right to support mediaevalist maniacs whose only concern was the freedom to abuse women and children that they regarded as "their" posessions. Even Ms Bhutto supported such people. Theres another example. She directed the ISI to create the Taleban. Later, their camp assassinated her! Hows that for a cock-up! And thats not a US or UK policy but one from a politician of the region!

Meanwhile, its interesting to note that the US created an earlier Golem in Ho Chi Minh. When Vietnam was under Japanese rule, the US armed and funded him. Eventually, of course, he went to war with THEM!

My motto is "You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs".

Dixon

Peter
November 28th, 2008 1:51pm
Do I take it that Jewish racism is approved of on this blog, given that my earlier post in that regard under the guise of 'Ann' attracted satisfied attention from some individuals? On past experience I suspect it is highly acceptable here. Your fellow blogger, Peter."

Peter, Ann, make your mind up! Just how many clones have you got on here? Is it that apart from me, everyone here has been invented by "peter"/"Ann". Crikey! Aint that a bit rum?

Why do you need to maquerade under mukltiple monikers? Is it so you can use one to support the other?

Thats cheap isnt it!

On the web, you ( that is, whoever you are representing yourself as for tactical advantage ) are whats known in some forums as a "sock puppet".

Ann

Dixon: please ignore the wannabe imposter Peter. That post was by ME and not by anyone else. I believe this 'Peter' is a certain regular blogger here who I have previously liaised and then fallen out with on j-date.

Dixon

Ann
November 28th, 2008 2:36pm
Dixon: please ignore the wannabe imposter Peter. That post was by ME and not by anyone else. I believe this 'Peter' is a certain regular blogger here who I have previously liaised and then fallen out with on j-date."

Crikey, this is like being IN THE MATRIX or something...me noggins spinning!

Kennybhoy

Emmet Sweeney wrote,

"..the Daily Mail has been almost as anti-American as The Guardian over the past few years.."

Indeed. Although I would give you an argument over that "almost" man. Not only does the Daily Mail's anti-Americanism exceed that of the left-liberal media, it is FAR more dangerous.

The left-liberal media preaches mainly to the converted. The Daily Mail on the other hand, with it's Middle England readership, does a hell of a lot more damage! It legitimizes and emboldens deep rooted but until recently dormant tendencies toward anti-Americanism and antisemitism in a section of it's naturally conservative readership and it poisons the minds of many who were, at the very least, previously neutral or potentially right thinking. Miss Phillips has in the past written in despairing tones of the reception that our shared views have met with from Middle England audiences on, say, Question Time. Over the past few terrible years the Daily Mail has played no small part in laying the groundwork for such receptions.

The always insightful Michael Gove's article at the link below is as true today as it was back in 2004.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/print/the-magazine/cartoons/12126/the-deadly-mail.thtml

Deadly indeed....

Ronnie

The axis of appeasement; j-dates, sock puppets, leftists, rightists, leftist sock puppets, centrist realist imposters, exceptionalists, exceptional sock from M and S...

They're all here and yet still I don't know who the 'true moderates' are and, need I remind you, the clock is still ticking!!!

Dixon

Kennyboy, i keep telling people on American forums that it matters not one jot WHAT THEY DO, the British are inherently contemptuous of WHAT THEWY ARE!

The same may be true of other non-American communities. But as a Briton, I have all my life been encouraged to regard Americans as a loud, bumbling breed of half-wits. This being from non-leftward leaning people who acknowledge America as our genuine ally. In my family, for example, one of my brothers has been a US citizen since around 1970, but his siblings would still, beneath the surface, regard him as ha\ving thrown in his lot with a nation of inferiors.

All this guff about "restoring Americas respect in the world" is just such airy faery nonsense. There is nothing any US president can do that will change the way America is regarded, even by its friends. It was so long before W Bush or his dad took office, or were even born. Remember that saying "Yanks: Over paid, Over sexed and Over Here". Look at movies of the time and the British sense of superiority over their "cousins" is apparent, even during WW2.

I agree. To encourage this strand in our culture is a mistake.

anglicus

I have just read this brilliant article which says it all.
Give yourself 5 minutes to read it. It says it all, no one comes nearer to the truth as this man. What I couldn't comprehend was why he got such a large Jewish vote. Now I don't know if he is a Christian or a muslim, but I couldn't see him in a Baptist chapel singing Gospel songs. I think they will rue the day.
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3661#comment-29017

epaminondas

Robert Gate is NOT a republican, mizz mellie.
He is an independent appointed in a bypartisan manner by Bush

An American

Dixon,
You do go on and on.
Sorry you feel so superior to Americans...if I remember, we lost lots of our sons, brothers, uncles and husbands helping you out in WWII. My family lost two young men in that war and one came back in very bad shape.
There are always ingrates and loud mouths the world over.
I'm sure you'll read this late posting since you seem to be interested only in what you have to say.

Jeremy

Unfortunately, in a multicultural world - with multicultural nations in a multicultural West - pulling up the drawbridge and looking the other way is no longer an option. If what Melanie periodically refers to as the policies of divide-and-rule and appeasement of specific grievances have not and are not achieving peace and security for us all, then what other options are left open to us? Only the more radical ones, I would suggest.

Melanie writes that time is "fast running out". My own fear - pace Gore Vidal - is that we may indeed be living in "the last five minutes of the Roman Empire". And we all know how that ended.

Shevvers

Keep up the good work, Melanie! There are always dark periods throughout history - thankfully there have also been Davids, Alfreds, Wellingtons and Churchills!