The war against civilisation

Dixon

What about the Islamist war in Southern Thailand. To go by the maistream media you wpould never know about the beheadings of schoolgirls, bombings of school buses, threats to behead anyone who opens shop on a Friday, bombing of Buddhists' businesses, etc that has been going on there for years.

Why isnt it reported? Clearly because it does not fit the narrative that the media like to impose on the world. You cannot say Muslim unrest in Thailand is a reaction to involvement in Iraq, Afghanistan or Palestine, because Thailand has no involvement in any such theatre of global affairs. So the Thai "insurgency" is carefully overlooked or else selectively referred to in terms of mythical Thai government oppressions or "clamp down".

Bernard

Quite correctly, Ms Phillips' use of language attributes to 'Jews' equal status to 'British' and 'Americans'. They are a people/nation too and deserve to be given full recognition for that.

As regards the latest attacks, the Jews, the British, the Americans and the rest of the civilised world should stand side-by-side, share intelligence information and keep a close eye on the antics of islamists in each of their respective countries.

Anthony

I agree, Melanie.

But the useful idiots' evangelical belief in all these so-called grievances - that are nothing of the kind - are as much an article of faith to them as is the religious fundamentalism to the jihadists.

It is an article of faith for these useful idiots that it's Bush fault, it's Israel's fault, it's the Hindus' fault and so on.

They simply will not even entertain the idea that, no, actually, the momentum for all this comes from the ideology of those perpetrating it.

The astonishing thing is it only took a few flawed ideas from people like Marx, Gramsci et al to turn the world on its head. The worst part of it isn't the jihadists, its their apologists. That's the only thing that has let all this spread so quickly of late.

Newsnight has spent half the week talking about Muslim 'oppression'. I just hit the zapper.

I don't beleve that all the useful idiots in the Western media don't know what's going on but, sad to say, to accept what it so blindingly obvious and which you have just summarised would just show how foolish they have been.

The useful idiots won't give up their faith to look like fools.

Frank P

How many different ways does it have to be demonstrated, both by the jihadists and by you Melanie, before the citizenry of 'Western Civilisation' wakes up to the reality you have just delineated for the umpteenth time? It appears extremely likely that you - and the Jihad - will just have to keep trying, but much harder.

How about joining one of the cruise ships for a lecture by John Sergeant and nobbling him for the 'excuse me' dance. Now that would get the attention of the MSM and the Great Unwashed.

On the other hand, if you did; and if the bloody jihadists blew up the ship while the cuddly Sergie was treading all over your feet, I'm sure most of our compatriots would still find a way of blaming it all on The Mighty Boosh!

Patricia

Just the Religion of Peace folks being themselves. I hear that they have captured one of the "perps" .. I hope they don't pour water on his face or do anything mean to him. Our new President is going to talk to all of these guys when he takes office and fix everything. Cheers!

Guptha

You are assuming a lot of things here, and all of the facts are not yet known.

You are not in possession of the all the facts, no one is as of yet.

You are sensationalising this event just for the sake of it.

As a journalist you should know better and how dangerous this is.

TomTom

And yet still the west is scratching its head...

Yes because Gramscians cannot handle Nihilism - they need a blame-game and cannot handle manic destructive tendencies

The whole ideological training in the West is that bad things only happen if provoked - it is a pseudo-religious tenet of the secularist gospel -"no reaction without a preceding action"

Anat

'And yet still the west is scratching its head...'
for much longer now then they did between 1933 and 1939. So how many millions will this one take once the head scratching is over?

Mark

Agreed, and I hope Mel that you will write a more detailed examination of this attack and the media's (specifically UK media) defensive reaction to it.
Mike Embley of the BBC kept on saying that "more Indians" were killed than "others"; what is that supposed to mean? It's really rather depressing to hear these Islamic puppets ramble on like this.

Lee Laurie

"It is a war waged in the name of islam against America,Britain etc.etc."
Yes and it's on its way to UK.
Better stop arguing with each other and get on with agreeing to some sort of common defence.

Conservative Cabbie

"If they can do this in Mumbai, they can do it in London or other British cities"

Thankfully for americans, it would be harder to do there, there is one advantage to an armed citizenry.

I was particularly struck Melanie by your comparison to a commando raid. I felt exactly the same way, it smacked more of special forces rather than terrorism, even down to arriving by boat. I saw, during the Sky News coverage, an expert referring to retired Pakistani military officers who may be involved in training terrorists. The planning, the ability to hold out and the ruthlessness are very concerning developments.

On Jan 20th, there will be 4 million people in Washington for Obama's inauguration. That's going to be a really tough environment to police, a target rich setting and about as high profile an attack as they come. I hope the CIA and FBI are on the ball.

Tony

This atrocity is inspired by the Islamic doctrine. It has openly declared war on the free world. The sooner this is realized the sooner the free world can effectively prepare to defend itself from this tyrannical and brutal ideology. Wake up free world.

Terry

You are wasting your breath, Melanie. Western leaders have learnt nothing from WW2 and continue to appease those who won't be appeased by less than domination and annihilation. Wait for the normal cabal of academic 'experts' and left wing self haters to tell us that this was our fault. It wasn't. Neither were any of the previous islamofascist genocides, including and especially those in Israel. We can appease the new nazis when they demand Israel as their sudetenland. Or we can recognise adolph to be alive and well and champing at the bit to do away with even more of us than the 60 million he managed in WW2. Master race, master 'religion'. Same thing, same outcome, same solution.

Jan Maciag

The delusion runs very deep. This morning on the BBC Sunday programme, the correspondent from India was trying to establish “who these people were”…because “they targeted people of all faiths, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Christians…”.

Yet the attackers let Muslim prisoners go, probably could not avoid killing a few Hindus and specifically searched for Americans and British people. Most tellingly, they took the immense time and effort to assault what is probably the only Jewish target for 1000miles!

And yet our media keep playing at being open minded and unprejudiced.

Steven Brown

The 'west', I'm afraid, will still be scratching its head, even after it's been chopped off.

Jack R

Yes; too many reporters/ commentators reduce the Mumbai terror to a motiveless theatrical attack by anonymous gunmen; not recognising the centrality of the fact that the perpetrators were Muslims, motivated by Islamic jihad.

It's little wonder that the right lessons about the need to confront Islamic jihad and its supporterts, rather than to appease it, seem unlikely to be learnt.

Daniel

Well said, Melanie. When one looks at the Islamist agenda ie
Hatred of Jews and capitalism.
The love of violence and militarism for its own sake.
The construction of an idealised society in one country which will imposed on the whole world by force.
It seems to be just the latest form of Nazism, which must be confronted and destroyed in the same way as the last, sooner rather than latter. Maybe the Guardianistas still think that Nazis have to wear black uniforms, with swastikas hanging around their necks and speak with German accents to be Nazis?

Shy Guy

"And yet still the west is scratching its head...

The reason for this can be found here:

Why can't the British media use the "t" word?

Reg

I see the BBC are claiming that these attackers had no apparent motive other than a desire for celebrity martydom along the lines of the Columbine killers.

Their specific targeting of Britons, Americans and Jews must simply have been a coincidence.

I await claims that this is merely more 'anti-Islamic activity', with the only damage being done to Muslims.

PIlgering

India and its apologists can say what they want but the main point of contention between Pakistan and India is Kashmir (aside from Indias expansionist designs on its neighbours for a ‘greater India, its aggressive posturing, and its desire for hegemony in the region). There will never be peace in South Asia until Kashmir is justly resolved and Indias occupation ended.

All decent, fair-minded people who believe in substantive democracy and the right of all people to have self-determination (not just for themselves and ‘their kind) need to understand that Indian Occupied Muslim Kashmir has a right to decide its own future. India cannot deny, no matter how much they try, that there is a UN Resolution (Resolution 47 passed in 1948) which demands the holding of a plebiscite in Kashmir to determine whether the people want to be with Pakistan or India.

Indian occupation and crimes are well documented and are occasionally acknowledged by good, honest Indians like Arundhati Roy, Partha Chatterjee, Praful Bidwai etc.

Kashmir was invaded and illegally annexed by India though it was an overwhelmingly Muslim majority state whose people asked to accede to Pakistan. Hindus / India colluded with the complicit British authorities led by the pro-Hindu/India Mountbatten and the Attlee Govt (including Cyril Radcliffe who did the actual partitioning), to ignore the actual rule of partition which they had all agreed on (that Muslim majority states would become ‘Pakistan and the Hindu majority ‘India) and spun farcical nonsense that the Hindu ruler of this Muslim-majority land has signed accession to India. However, the ‘accession document has never been seen for it has conveniently ‘disappeared. But even if the Hindu ruler had acceded to India though unproven, it didnt matter because it was faith of the majority population that was important, not the faith of the ruler.

The blatant hypocrisy and dishonesty of India and of Mountbatten (and sadly Britain) can be seen by this fact: the Muslim ruler of the Hindu-majority princely state of Hyderbad Deccan asked to join Pakistan but the Hindus/India supported by Britain ignored his wishes, invaded his state and took it by force. They did the same with states of Awadh and Junagardh, both of whose Muslim princes requested accession to Pakistan. The Hindus / India aided and abetted by Britain, justified this by saying that it didnt matter what the Muslim princes wanted because the majority populations in their states were Hindus, hence according to the maxim of partition, they had to be with India.

Yet India denied this in Muslim Kashmir. It made a mockery of the principle of partition which they applied where it suited them and ignored it where it didnt as with Kashmir, a rightful part of Pakistan. This is the injustice that Kashmiris and Pakistan have asked to be corrected for the last 60 years.

Despite a UN resolution which even wily Nehru agreed to including the holding of a plebiscite, the occupier India, backed by its unjust friends and overlords, refuses to do so and the UN refuses to enforce its will as it always does in all disputes where Muslims are concerned (Palestine, Chechnya, Bosnia, Southern Thailand et al). The same thing happened with the districts of Ambala and Gurdaspur which were detached from Muslim Punjab, despite having Muslim majority populations, and dishonestly given to India by Britain.

As a result of this dispute which is of India and Britains making, India has fought three wars of aggression with Pakistan as well as the Kargil conflagration in 1999.

In light of the above, India and friends need to recognise the dirty role it has played in these realities, grievances and injustices and it needs to correct this. India is the big bully boy in Southern Asia which is responsible for meddling in the affairs of its smaller neighbours including in its use of Indian state terrorism through intelligence agencies like RAW.

Indian commentators and their neo-com chums and others always speak of Muslims including Pakistanis as having an alleged sense of ‘victimhood. Why shouldnt they when these are the things that Indians and others have done against them? And why is India now acting like a victim when in all likelihood, this Mumbai bombing is an ‘inside job to implicate a pre-occupied and vulnerable seeming Pakistan thats busy fighting American battles and American aggression.

If anyone even breaks wind in India, they blame it on Pakistan. THAT is a victim mentality; India as the perennial victim when in fact India is in most cases the aggressor in South Asia.

logdon

Melanie is airing facts often posted by myself and gleaned from various global websites respected by those who will at least acknowledge the truth of what is going on. These facts often never make the MSM which strictures and stifles itself with cloying PC pompousness. The BBC, our publicly funded State Broadcaster is the main culprit refusing point blank to name a spade a spade. In similar fashion the Spectator often and infuriatingly moderates my comments and seemingly joins the list of dhimmi's in this abject fawning. This is basically collusion with those who wish to destroy our societies by either violent jihad as we have seen in Mumbai or the slow drip, insidious hollowing out of our culture. We all know who these people are. We all know where the inpiration comes from. We all know their aims yet the reticence to blow away the destructive secrecy is plainly palpable. You may seem like blowhards when we read Melanie's admirable blogs but your moderation of the truth in other areas is quite inexplicable. Why did the Spectator not publish the Danish cartoons for instance? Misplaced respect or fear? However this situation is slowly reversing and the Telegraph for one bravely sticks it's head over the parapet. Relations between India and Pakistan, never cordial are the perfect metaphor as to how Islam, like a demanding child set's it's sights on all it observes and the old never changing tenet, 'once Islamic , always Islamic' is at play here. Normally the victim is Israel, this time Mumbai. Areas in Britain are now regarded as 'Islamic spaces'. This fact is documented by many who will not veer from honesty such as Patrick Sookdeo and Nazir Ali so will we be the target for 'another big one'? Will it take yet more carnage and wholesale death in Britain to wake the MSM from it's appeasing slumber? Here's the link http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/3535740/Mumbai-attacks-Jihadists-see-invasion-as-a-triumph.html

Joe

The reality is we are at war. The war has been going on with greater or lesser violence levels for the last 1400 years.

It will end when we either all convert to Islam/accept dhimmi status or when "Western Civilisation" in its broadest sense prevails.

Given our political lords and masters are generally acting like an overt 5th Column it does not look good for our survival.

Joe

Dagobert

There is one major country safe from Islamic terrorism :- Japan. Despite a population with a much older population profile than anywhere in Europe, they have not found it necessary to allow mass immigration of people with values at odds with those of their society.

David

Brilliant analysis, Melanie.
But accurate analysis requires a good grasp of logic and high intelligence and intellect. It seems to me that the world is in the crab-like, cancerous grip of Leftism in all of its forms. Unfortunately, in general, the world-view of Leftists could be characterised as extreme emotionalism. There is simply no common ground between logic and extreme emotionalism as far as I can see.
Melanie, you can put forward logical and intelligent analysis and arguments until you are blue in the face, it isn't going to change the world-view of a died-in-the-wool emotionalist; there is simply no meeting of minds. Hopefully, there are some well-meaning Leftists who will finally, finally begin to think for themselves and use a little bit of their God-given intelligence.
Slightly off-post but extremely relevant, I think, is a comment that was posted by a doctor, in the on-line edition of 'The Guardian', in relation to the Baby P murder:
Quote: 'There is no hope for Britain. Civilisations dont die, they commit suicide. And before they commit suicide, they read and believe the Guardian.'

That says it all, really, doesn't it?

logdon

And oh so predictably Pakistan is stamping it's feet.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5259622.ece

Incredible! After so much carnage and despair they revert to type and circle the waggons around Islam? Didn't take long did it? This is the equivalent of a megaphone message to the world that despite all the violence, despite all the threats, despite the fact that India has been horribly violated they are the victims! And now browbeating the world by throwing it's rattles out of the pram. In case anyone is in any doubt these are the true colours of Pakistan. In the 'war on terror' in titular fashion and grabbing the international jizya of aid money, then at the slightest reaction to major terrorism trying this obvious blackmail. And even more worryingly our so called airport borders with Pakistan are forever open. Four hundred thousand flights to and fro last year. Thousands of British would be jihadis making the trips to camps and madrassa's with laughable impunity. 'Curry King' Gulam Noon who was in Mumbai is now talking of halting this never ending stream which is importing hate and huge stored problems. Very admirable but why does it take someone of South Asian heritage to articulate the obvious? If a white Brit spoke out in such manner would they be hoisted off by anti race-hate police? Has Britain in fact ceased as far as it's indigenous population is concerned? Many readers in last weeks comment pages seem to think so.

Joe Strummer

I watched BBC Question Time last Thursday as this massacre of the innocents in India was unfolding and yet again the panel were asking themselves what have WE done to deserve this latest Islamic atrocity and of how maybe we can sit down with representatives of these maniacs and come to some kind of compromise. Words fail me to type anything more.

Barry Larking

A note to 'Pilgering'. How does the situation in Kashmir improve as a result of these appalling events? How does the seizure and murder of Jews assist the resolution of this issue? (BBC et al: unarmed people who are shot dead in railway stations and hotels are murdered, not simply 'killed').

There is no certain way in an open society – almost everywhere in western Europe, large parts of south America and those parts of the world settled by British colonists – one can prevent acts such as happened in Bombay. (BBC: Please note almost everyone from Bombay calls it Bombay.) It is the definition of the openness of a society in that it will not deploy repression of rights which would be required to create a terrorist free state.

"The Islamists want to murder as many Americans, Brits, Hindus and Jews as possible. That is because they are waging all-out war against civilisation." – MP.

And Modernity. Islam – "in it's broad interpretation" (Ayman al-Zawahiri) – is being squeezed by the rise of Modernism which is sometimes confused with the expression 'western ideology'. It is somehow very convenient for the purposes of the attack upon India to wrap this up with Kashmir and disadvantaged groups inside India. But the choice of Bombay is noteworthy, because this is (as MP highlights) a spectacle of Indian confidence and willingness to embrace change.

But the real spectre on the Islamist horizon is China, in many ways the unseen hand who brought the Arabs onto the world stage by virtue of the trade known (misleadingly quaintly) as the Silk Road. Among other things rise of Mohammed can be seen as a riposte to the cultural influences brought about as a consequence of that ancient trade. China's transformation since the end of Mao and the Gang of Four is very bad news for those like bin Laden and Zawahiri who yearn for a new Caliphate. If one traces on the map of the world with a finger the outlines of the old Caliphate we see within it only countries which have not industrialised nor ever have been (except the oil industry which simply underlines the point).

I my view these are world historic forces, and the dialogue of apologetics that have taken root among guilty liberals in British media and culture will stop not them.

seb

@ Dagobert

You'd better watch it. It's true that the population of the Japanese islands contains few non-Japanese [Ainu excepted]. But don't mention this unless you want to get the Japanese in trouble with The Guardian. I really don't want to see any newspaper articles by bien pensant morons insisting that the Japanese ought to learn from the examples of New York or Marseilles.

Verity

Anthony - That was a superb, clear-sighted post. You are right in every one of your points. We should also not forget the Muslim aggression in the Philippines. Again, absolutely nothing to do with anything the Filippinos or their government has done.

Guptha addresses Melanie thusly: "You are sensationalising this event just for the sake of it." Well, Guptha, you are right. Muslims bombing the financial capital of India, and the two top luxury hotels, taking innocent hostages and shooting guests and employees resulting in over 300 now dead, on behalf of their desert diety ... I can't see anything newsworthy here at all. Just a trival news squib that Melanie's blowing up - oops! - sensationalising - out of all reason.

Why do I suspect that, despite your "name", you're not a Hindu?

Pilgering, you're talking out your arse. Kashmir is only Muslim up to Kargil. After that, it's Buddhist. Anyone from the West who has been to Kashmir will tell you that the Muslims run after you shouting, "I not Muslim, madam!" - or sir, as the case may be. "No Muslim! I Buddhist" Yeah, pull the other one, Mohammad. After Kargil, one is among genuine Buddhists who, I suspect, view the notion of a Muslim Kashmir with absolute horror and terror.

Kashmir is a part of tolerant India and, although it sadly has a large Muslim population, it is not "Muslim Kashmir" and you and your co-religionists will have to learn to live with it.

I have suggested over on Coffee Shop in the Bombay post, that young men of Islamic persuasion who inexplicably find it necessary to go to Pakistan to take "computer courses" or find a close relative to marry, should have their passports invalidated while they're away. When the airlines booked for the return flight check their passports at check-in, they would come up as invalid. No airline will let them on a plane with an invalid passport. That should get rid of a few of the trouble makers.

PS - I adore Sir Gulam Noon.

An American

I just read down the comments to Gupta....

This fellow is part of our worldwide problem.

Maybe we should start with the news media and reporters first...then destroy the terrorists.

Grumpy the ZIONIST

some facts coming out of Israel today:

sole surviving terrorist -azam amir- told Indian police that 'they were sent with a specific mission of targeting Israelis at Chabad House(beit chabad) in order to avenge atrocities committed (yes you've guessed it) against palestinians (thought these asian 'terrs' would have enough on their plated avenging strocities in the Kashmir)

The 'terrs' also apparently had stayed in Chabad House, posing as malaysian students,all the while scoping out the location.

the attacks have been described by Israel as 'the product of extremist Islam (why not islam in general)- brutal and unrestrained, which tries to sow death and destruction wherever it goes'

Anybody miss anything so far - are we all on the same page here!!

phil

It is time the Muslim population of the Uk marched on London `proclaiming that these atrocities "are not in my name"-They have marched before with a different message about Iraq let them now show how much they care for all of us .

They too are the victims of these lunatics who value death more than life , and have once again demonstrated the lie that the the middle east is the reason for their war -Dixon and others have said it well enough that I do not need to repeat it

.These lunatics need to be shown that they represent noone but themselves ,a deluded branch of a religion that has no control of its deviants .Let our Muslim population speak out loud and clear that they are in this battle with us side by side along with the rest of we grateful descendents of immigrants ,who have been afforded peace and prosperity in this great nation .

Verity

In my opinion, this was a practice run. I have read several comments that noted how calm the terrorists were. No excitement, no shouting. Just calmly executing their mission in the expectation that they would be shot and killed.

I think this was a dress rehearsal for some large happenings in the West (although India is an honorary member of the West).

This worked.

Verity

I see a Kashmiri government employee has been detained. You could have knocked me over with a feather.

Marsouin

When are we going to witness the levee en masse of Western Muslims denouncing these practices in their community against humanity in the name of their religion? Will there ever be a day when the racism and totalitarianism of the jihadist movement ever become a pariah among Western Muslims? Is it unfair to argue that the many long years of silence by Western Muslims provide tacit support to jihadists and their crimes?

Jasmine

Guptha, what on earth are you complaining about?

There is a 19-year-old from this group of terrorists who was apprehended and who has given an extensive interview to the Indian authorities full of admissions.

The details of that interview that have thus far been released tally with exactly what Melanie Phillips has just written.

Elsewhere on this subject, The Telegraph really is back on form with much of its coverage this last week of this.

It has a great piece of analysis from Amir Taheri here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/3532157/Mumbai

And Charles Moore:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/11/29/do2901.xml

Dagobert, Japan is one of the few countries not stupid enough to have bought into multicultiwhatsitcalled. They are determined that Japan will remain Japanese in character and have set very strict controls on immigration.

Joe Strummer, I just watched that Question Time in disbelief. One member of the audience came out with this on the latest Indian terror attacks (we have to say latest because they’ve been going on for years only the Western media didn’t like to make too much of it):

“It is obviously a great tragedy. However, we are now living in the age of Barack Obama and we’re going to have to sit down, talk to Al Qaeda, find out what the problem is. It’s the only way it can ever get solved It’s just a matter of when we actually do that.”

That is the level of delusion we’re dealing with. Our fairytale Princess Obama apparently has the magic power to stop centuries of jihadist aggression. Where does he get this magic power from? Those cigarettes he so assiduously keeps hidden from the public?

Notice, too, how the TV channels have suddenly gone sotto voce on the events in Nigeria this week.

I mean, it just wouldn’t do to remind the world of the Muslim North’s continued aggression against the Christian South, would it?

Because then the public might connect that to what’s been going on India, the Philippines, Israel, New York, London, Madrid etc etc.

And we wouldn’t want that now, Mainstream Media, would we?

Dixon

ive read peoples comments as far as "Pilgering". Sounds ironical...like maybe intended as a parody of Pilger, But, hold on, IS IT Pilger? A whole manifesto, blathering full of conspiratorial mumbo jumbo, "The Indian commentators and their neo-con friends" What a load of drivel.

These people seem to spend all theior free time ( and probably their work time too, in philosophy classes accross the land ) trying to figutre out ways of making red into blue. The arguments of these people resemble that schoolground sleight of number that used to make it seem that one plus one equals one ( sorry, I cannot remember how it goes, I was only ten ).

steve

Conservative Cabbie: You may be right about armed Americans being better positioned to fend off such attacks, but surely the greater availability of weapons in the U.S. makes these types of attacks more likely and not less likely. It's not so easy to get AK-47s in the UK.

Angela

This guy gets it:
http://www.israellycool.com/2008/11/29/reaction-to-mumbai-massacre/

Dixon

Conservative Cabbie
November 30th 803am: "On Jan 20th, there will be 4 million people in Washington for Obama's inauguration. That's going to be a really tough environment to police, a target rich setting and about as high profile an attack as they come. I hope the CIA and FBI are on the ball."

...But ( only partly in jest ) Why would they want to attack THEIR APOLOGISTS?

You know I agree with your outlook Cabbie, but not every point. Even as someone who supports the right of Americans to bear arms ( though why theyd want the arms of a bear I dont understand ) I cant see how it would protect them from such an attack. Even in the US, not everyone is allowed to wear weapons in public ( although there are occasional incidents where permit holders do produce a pistol in public and stop an assailant, hold-up artist, etc ). On the contrary, I would imagine the ready availability of weapons in the US would make the preperation of such an attack easier. Especially given the big open space they have for the terrorists to meet and rehearse in.

Dont misunderstand me though, I am not an anti-gun hysteric by the remotest imagining.

Dixon

Ive noticed the mods here dont post up my more whimsical comments...but in the interest of levening humour, perhaps Ill be allowed to point out the uncanny resemblance between the attacker whose picture has been most reproduced and Davy Jones, formerly of The Monkees! With his Hollywood suntan. And even the same chirpy looking disposition as he sets out to mass murder!

But there IS a serious aspect to this. Israeli research with captured failed suicide attackers has found that their "handlers" use drugs ( including alcohol, permissable in prep of a "martyrdom " mission ) and psychological techniques to whip up their "volunteers" into a state of trance-like exaltation. Which is indeed the kind of look we see in the expression of that photographed Mumbai terrorist!

Kennybhoy

I note with interest the absence of the usual suspects from commentary on this article....?

Dipper

So, we're all agreed the Islamist philosophy and organisation is at the heart of the problem, but I've searched in vain through the comments for a practical suggestion on what to do about it.

Terrorist organisations that have a strong hold in a host population are very hard to eliminate, as the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq are demonstrating.

Ideas anyone?

Verity

Marsouin asks: "Is it unfair to argue that the many long years of silence by Western Muslims provide tacit support to jihadists and their crimes?"

Ummmm ... no .... sounds fair to me ...

Dixon - I've never seen anyone other than a police officer "wearng a weapon". In Texas and some other states, you can get a permit to "carry concealed", meaning you can tuck a gun in your belt under your jacket, or carry a gun in your purse, etc.

The US is vast indeed, but I can assure you that a bunch of Muslims heading for the wide open spaces would be stopped and questioned.

Jasmine, Charles Moore's piece in The Telegraph was weak and placatory. Of course, he was editor of The Telegraph at the time of the Motoon Rage and declined to print a single photo of those rather weak and watery "cartoons". They printed one in France, and Jordan and Mexico. But not in Britain, which has/d "the freest press in the world". That title was given up during Charles Moore's watch - I suspect at Alastair Campbell's thuggish "suggestion". And even now, he's scared to death to have a negative opinion about Islam.

Verity

Dipper asks for ideas. Well, Sir Gulam Noon, Labour supporter who was hung out to dry in the cash for titles scandal by Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell has said he thinks there should be a 10 moratorium on all immigration. Of course, there should, but it is quite an extraordinary thing for a prominent Labour supporter to have the nerve to say in public.

Dipper

thanks for the reply Verity, but that example illustrates the poverty of options available.

- it isn't going to happen.
- even if it did happen, you can't stop those muslims already living here and born here from visiting abroad, or embracing the islamist philosophies.
- Britains and British interests abroad are still vulnerable.
- It will do nothing to challenge the philosphy and sense of victimhood prevelant in part of the muslim community.

I can't see any alternative to having a positive engagement with those communities currently supporting islamist philosophies in an attempt to remove terrorism as the only solution they see to their concerns.

London Calling

I agree with all the points you raised Melanie, except I do not believe the West is scratching its head over the threat of terrorism, but instead those working within the intelligence services are having to think one step ahead of the terrorists, who it seems aim for what they consider an easy target, in which case Mumbai clearly was.

India has not experienced carnage like this for nearly forty years and yet now with its modern capital and endless stream of westerners it should have been apparent that it was at a high risk of a terrorist attack, for which sadly it was not prepared for considering its neighbour is Pakistan.

The threat of this kind of terror cannot be dealt with swiftly and neither can it be named, it is through combined global intelligence and security
that prevent such attacks, however if we are to defeat such
attacks in future we need to be one step ahead and I agree we may be too many steps behind at present.

My prayers go out to all those who have died in Mumbai and to their family's.

Augustus

Since 9/11 Islam extremists have carried out over 11,000 terrorist attacks worldwide. While they weren't the first to use suicide bombers, or hijack planes, they have taken both to new levels as their principle weapons of terror. They have blown up schools and students, driven busses into crowds of people, set off bombs on public transport and elsewhere, in dozens of countries in Asia and Europe. Their leaders openly call for genocide against Jews and Hindus, and their followers try their utmost to obey those calls. wherever they have had power to do so they deliberately destroy religious shrines and houses of worship, and brag about their step-by-step destruction of other faiths. They even have the gall often to claim that these things are done because they are angry at some perceived offence, some frustration of living conditions, or in defence of their own warped conception of human rights. So, while terrible indeed, are these events which unfolded in Mumbai anything new or surprising? Have these terrorists done anything they have not promised us they would do?

kiwi

It's OK everyone, relax, nothing to worry about after all. There's no evidence of any war against civilisation; only talentless malcontents, apparently, according to Al Beeb's Paul Cornish - just some wannabe celebrities looking for media attention. Phew, that's a big relief!

“Celebrity terror’

Gunmen without a cause - eager for limelight

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7755684.stm

Frank P

Steven Brown

"The 'west', I'm afraid, will still be scratching its head, even after it's been chopped off."

And scratching its balls, which have apparently already been chopped off.

Verity

Oh, wow, thanks, Kiwi! Good to know they're just James Dean/Marlon Brandoesque rebels without a cause, eh? Next stop, a new TV show called Help! I'm a Terrorist - Get Me on That Flight!

Dipper writes: "I can't see any alternative to having a positive engagement with those communities currently supporting islamist philosophies in an attempt to remove terrorism as the only solution they see to their concerns."

No offence, Dipper, but the depth of ignorance that this statement illuminates is terrifying. It is the most peposterous statement I have read all week - and this has been a week with lots of statements by Labour front benchers.

Let me deconstruct it for you: "... a positive engagement with those communities currently supporting islamist philosophies"...

What "communities"? What are you talking about? An entire religion isn't a "community" in that sense, besides which it is "community" singular. One community. Islam.

"...in an attempt to remove (sic) terrorism as the only solution they see to their concerns." (I think you meant "employ" terrorism ...).

They don't have any "concerns". If you know better, please enlighten us.
For most - not all - strains of Islam, the world is divided into two parts (not "communities"): Dar es Salaam - the house of Islam. Them. And Dar al Harb - the house of war. Us. Allah is dead set on everyone worshipping him. The whole world should be Dar es Salaam. (In a pig's eye, if I may so phrase it.) That is what this is all about. It is not about "concerns". These barbarians are not town councillors trying to solve a parking problem in a way that is fair to everyone. They want your soul.

This is why they destroy religious edificies, paintings and sculptures of other religions. (And the fact that Allah doesn't like paintings and statues because only Allah can create anything, and these infidels are muscling in on his turf.)

This non-singing, non-dancing show has been running since 800 AD. Non-stop.

By the way, the "victimhood" that you refer to is part of taqqya. Please read up on it.

Verity

Frank P - Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!

davidka

YES the BBC's refusal to use the T word to describe the homicidal murderers is justified because it considers the word to be emotional and judgemental.
That such moral judgements are best avoided might be an honourable view were it not that they have no such reservations in describing perceived misdeeds which emenate from western, american or israeli sources.
It is also obvious that it will never allows jihadists to present their 'opinions' directly on any of its public discussion programs such as 'QUESTION TIME' for example.
They simply, in their intense defence of anything Islamic, cannot allow such revelations to be aired, so instead they air these views through the shameful distortions of their own journalists.Hacks who will rush into damage dontrol at every Jihadist attrocity.
The real religious reasons behind the mass murders must never be exposed and can never be asked directly and only occasionally approached by their own academic liberals, professors, who inevitably place the reasons at the feet of self hatred and western guilt.
the result after so many, many years of jihad murder, is that even today the same questions are being aired -why do they hate us etc ,and much of the BBC sheeplike audience are still clueless and hold western imperialism and Israel accountable for these acts of mass murder.

Jackie

What is this, from Dipper:

“I can't see any alternative to having a positive engagement with those communities currently supporting islamist philosophies in an attempt to remove terrorism as the only solution they see to their concerns.”

“Positive engagement”. Are you joking me? They have nothing but ‘positive engagement’ the world over.

They have international aid money thrown at Muslim countries left right and centre. Muslims have immigrated into Europe in unprecedented numbers over the last few decades, many of them living on state handouts encompassing housing benefit, council tax benefit, child benefit, child tax credit and all the rest of it.

Their self-appointed leaders seem very good at landing 'community' handouts and government jobs for themselves as Islamic experts.

I'd like a handout for the non-Islamic community and a government job as an expert on how to stop the global Islamic Caliphate - but I doubt I'll be getting any ‘positive engagement’ any time soon.

What do people like us have to do to be taken seriously by Western governments about our concerns?

Threaten or carry out our own violence?

Are those the new rules now?

The jihadists had nothing but “positive engagement” with the reverence afforded to anything remotely Islamic. Islam seems to be rapidly moving into a position where it trumps everything - that’s what they want.

Funnily enough, the more Muslims are waited upon hand and foot by the rest of the world, the more aggressive the jihadists among them get.

That’s because they don’t have any ‘concerns’, as you so pathetically put it, other than creating a global Islamic Caliphate.

That might be their ‘concern’. It sure as heck isn’t ours - or anybody else’s.

A LEG FOR A TOOTH

To DIPPER re: SOLUTIONS
A few years back I proposed an idea. Goes a lot
fuher than the Israeli's have gone and involves
not communalpunishmnt, but FAMILY PUNISHMENT. As follows: Terrorists should be warned that their families will be hunted down
and killed. Their entire families. Old and young. mothers, fathers, brthers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents. So when they contemplate murder they will be condemning their familes to death.

Verity

Wot Davidka said so well.

To all lefties and terrorists, listen up: the West doesn't hate itself. We think we are the cat's whiskers: clever, wonderful, on the whole, nice-looking, invent incredible things and have the best dress designers and marvellous shoes.

Those Pakistani bints who insist that wearing niqabs and all that crap is a religious duty have never read the q'ran. It's the habit of a desert tribe, to keep blowing sand out of their eyes and noses. Men in the desert wear keffiyahs for exactly the same reasons. It's not religious, it's intelligent and practical. It doesn't translate to Luton.

Dipper - because you seem to have followed the leftist/Muslim Council line wholesale, let me just mention that nowhere in their Q'ran does it instruct women to wear hijabs, burqas or - the full monty fright outfit - niqabs.

Nowhere. The radical young women who say they are just following their religion are lying or ignorant - as are many of their imams. There are no academic qualifications to be an imam, by the way. There is no dichotomy between imam and moron.

Biff Clarence

Britain should first acknowledge its role in being the common factor for the two major conflicts that are the root cause of terrorism:
1) Partitioning India to India and Pakistan.
2) Partitioning historical Palestine to Israel & Palestine ( Balfor declaration).

And let us not forget the rape and pillage of those lands by the British empire for centuries pre-dating WW2.

Susan

Ms. Phillips, I hope that you take solace in the fact that people ignored Dorothy Thompson, too (tho' it probably distresses you to recall it). All this means is that you are right, and must never give up. "Thank you" is such a small thing to say, but I mean everything when I say it: THANK YOU.

Paul

And yet the west is scratching its head...Is it any wonder when the morons... sorry ministers.. of this shower of lobby fodder are forbidden from using the words islamic and terrorism in the same sentence? This is a religious war and it is being carried out against the west by ISLAMIC TERRORISTS!!!

Conservative Cabbie

Steve/Dixon

On america and guns, of course you are both right; the point I made was somewhat flippant although the police are armed and I suspect more likely to engage in a firefight than the Indian police it seems.

Conservative Cabbie

Biff Clarence

"Britain should first acknowledge its role in being the common factor for the two major conflicts that are the root cause of terrorism"

Why should we? You're talking about events that happened decades ago, the people responsible for those events are no longer in power, in fact probably all dead. The past s the past, we should be looking to the future. Liberal guilt serves no purpose except the joyous contrition that liberals delight in punishing themselves (and the rest of us) with.

Charles

Biff Clarence,

British "rape & pillage" of India, Pakistan and Palestine for centuries?

That's a first - where did you conjure that up from?

Emmet Sweeney

I fear that the "big one", the one which will finally make even the lefties waken up and realise that radical Islam is at war with the rest of the world (I refer to a nuclear strike on a western city), will happen just when things appear to be going the right way. Populations of ordinary Muslims, tiring of the violence and savagery of their co-religionists, may start to go secular in a big way, or even to convert to other faiths. This is particularly likely to happen as ordinary Muslims now, for the first time, are being educated and have more access to information via the internet. It's just at this point, when in might appear that the danger is passing, that some Al Qaida group, supplied with nuclear material by a Pakistani scientist, may strike a desperate blow at the west. Such a blow would mean the immediate collapse of the world economy, plus the fall of virtually every democracy in the world; martial law everywhere, and the rise of fascist and communist dictatorships. Impossible? It's only five kilograms of plutonium away.

Geoff M

Previous posters say that Britain is responsible for the messy division of India and centuries of pillage.

Which Britain? Not my Britain or that of my forebears who didnt even have the vote. Rich and powerfull people on all sides did this.
Ordinary Britons have no responsibility.

Geoff M

Emmmet Sweeney (10.05am) says ".......when it might appear that the danger is passing, that some Al Qaida group, supplied with nuclear material by a Pakistani scientist, may strike a desperate blow at the west. Such a blow would mean the immediate collapse of the world economy, plus the fall of virtually every democracy in the world; martial law everywhere, and the rise of fascist and communist dictatorships. Impossible? It's only five kilograms of plutonium away."

I approve your concept but the nuclear material is already out there, we already have economic collapse and Britain is already run by a dictatorial Marxist government as unfolding evidence of the past weeks activities by the Politicised Metropolitan Police only demonstrates.

John Birch

The connecting issue with what happened in India with what is happening in Afghanistan with what is happening in the UK is Pakistan plain and simple. In that sense it is less about Islam and more about Islam as practised in Pakistan. Pakistan is in many ways a failed state with some powerful institutions, including an intelligence service, that support militant Islam not because they desire some sort of world revolution (the idea that the West could be toppled by 10 men armed with AK-47s as suggested on here is ridiculous) but for geopolitical reasons in Pakistan's never-ending struggle with India and in a desire to keep Afghanistan weak. Thus, the grievance over Kashmir has been promoted by these same Pakistani agencies and, in turn, that has been used as a tool to radicalize young men and encourage them to use terrorism to fight what they see as the oppression of Muslims. Until the Pakistani government is willing to root out in a fundamental way these elements within its political system these attacks will continue. The real danger for the UK and for the US is, as people have pointed out, that thousands of Britons travel to and from Pakistan every year. The U.S. government is rightly concerned about some of these individuals receiving terror training in Pakistan and then with their British passports travelling to the U.S. to carry out an attack. That's why the U.S. briefly floated the idea of requiring Britons born in Pakistan to have special visas before they can enter the U.S. Again, these individuals don't threaten western civilization but they certainly are a terrorist threat to the UK and to the U.S.

john

And Neturei Karta will still act as Ambassadors for them! As my father, z'l, used to say "They ain't seen the programme yet"

Geoff M

Fotunately terrorist attacks in the UK will be in major, multicultural, centres for the biggest "kill rate". Most British people now live well away from them.

As for Israel, I can't see why the Arabs want to destroy Israel.

The demographic changes will mean that, within this century, Arabs living in Israel will outnumber Jews and it will becomean Islamic state anyway and the wealth and infrastructure will be for the taking.

Its just a matter of time.

Tancred

Steve, you say that the absence of an armed population may make us safer in the UK as guns are harder to come by?

Not for criminals and terrorists they aren't.

I travel to/from the UK by ferry many times a year. My vehicle have never, in 6 years, been searched coming into the UK but is searched approx 50% of the time coming out again.

Barmy!

If they want guns they can have them - and probably already do.

phil

Dipper read mine

phil

Dipper and your romance with the fragrant one started so well :).)you should have tried studying the lifestyle of a certain lady spider before you engaged .try black widows (lol)

Cabbie on the money as usual at 7.46

Robbit

Kiwi... yikes! I have just read the Cornish effort you drew our attention to (thanks!). My God, what a load of drivel. If this is the level of thinking at the top of an institution like Chatham House there is no hope at all. Utterly sickening.

Dixon

Biff Clarence
December 1st, 2008 5:59am
Britain should first acknowledge its role in being the common factor for the two major conflicts that are the root cause of terrorism:
1) Partitioning India to India and Pakistan.
2) Partitioning historical Palestine to Israel & Palestine ( Balfor declaration).
And let us not forget the rape and pillage of those lands by the British empire for centuries pre-dating WW2."

Just silly. Palestine, along with most of todays Arab countries, was ruled by Ottoman Turkey until ww1 when it was Britain that liberated it...and the rest of the Arab countries.

Ever heard of the movie "Lawrence of Arabia". Thats what it was about. T.E. Lawrence, British Special Forces leader guiding the Arabs to freedom. Not something set on another planet, called "Dune" maybe.

This is what always baffles me about that sort pf comment. Britain LIBERATED the Arab Middle easy, not opporess it.

Dixon

Emmet Sweeney
December 1st, 2008 10:05am
I fear that the "big one", the one which will finally make even the lefties waken up and realise that radical Islam is at war with the rest of the world (I refer to a nuclear strike on a western city),..."

No, mate, you dont realise how twisted their views are...if that ever happens,the same mouthpieces will immedia\tely be lining up to blame US as did after 9/11. Moreover, such a catastrophe will ( I agree, it is only a question of time before it DOES happen ) cause a polarisation of communities in the UK. and you can guess which side the media, authorities and mouthpieces of the left will take? People who want to resist the terrorists will be rounded up and put into camps, labelled as "racists", if we dare say anything in support of resistence.

You will never see an end to the writhing sophistry of the self-hating Western Intelligentsia, because that is what it is, tortuous inversion of one thing into another that never acknowledges the simplicity of many situations.

The world is NOT really a complex place. everything in it ultimately reduces to one question: "Them or us".

JWT

The War against Civilisation...

So, how are we defining Civilisation? Aren’t we sliding into the trap of extremism by assuming that our values are universal and therefore provide the uniform solution for progress? And aren’t we doing the same when we talk about the Islamic Conquest? For an Islamic conquest to be a real and not imaginary threat we would probably need a united and powerful Arab World, something like Saladin’s ... We would also need motivation – expansion, resources etc. As I see things at present, the only way to experience these two circumstances combined is by using Dr. Who’s TARDIS. In contradistinction to ‘an Islamic Conquest’ we have though all the preconditions of ‘a Western Conquest’. I do agree however with the Hatred of the West (and of Israel as associated with the West), but then what causes hatred? Let’s not forget how and when the Arab nations emerged. Taking into account simple preconditions for a nation to emerge, such as ‘national identity’ (preferably laic) - are we sure that each and every nation in the Arab World had its unique identity at the moment of its creation? Are we also certain that the Arab World experienced its Enlightenment (secularisation) before translating to an array of nations? Let’s not forget that guerrilla warfare is born out of desperation and that it would be too simplistic and unjust for us to categorise it as an Islamic invention (think of the Jews and the Warsaw ghetto). All these arguments do not justify the atrocities in Mumbai. However, they allow us to put these atrocities into context and once a fair context is provided we could probably allow for them being just another instance of failed forecasting with grave and sombre repercussions... Then work on solutions...

PS. I would not involve Marx and Gramsci into this; I would rather stick to Mountbatten and Balfour

Tony

Melanie, reading through some of the comments on this page, I fear that you are still talking to the deaf, dumb and blind. You are a visionary and can see the path ahead. Islam has declared war on the West, a long time ago in fact, and it's high time everyone woke up to it. I am sick to the stomach with political correctness and a despicable left-wing media that wrings its hands when confronted with the truth, twisting it to suit their own escapist agenda.

ahad ha'amoratsim

JWT, you need to learn the difference between guerilla warfare and the deliberate torture and mass murder of unarmed civilians. This may teach you, among other things, why your comparison to the Warsaw Ghetto is nothing less than obscene.

raymond joseph douglas

I felt that I had to phone BBC's any answers, to protest at Caroline Lucas trying to pin the blame for the Bombay terror attacks on, guess who, Israel! The shame and idiocy, of the liberal-left has no bounds! Any questions, 29/11/08

Jeb, Texas

JWT says: “Aren’t we sliding into the trap of extremism by assuming that our values are universal and therefore provide the uniform solution for progress?”

How are we extremist?

If you look at the history of the West, it has become increasingly secular, yet now everywhere it is suddenly expected to make its financial, legal and cultural structures subject to religion. Actually just one particular religion - Islam. How are we trying to convert people to religion with the threat of or use of violence?

I don‘t see anyone else blowing up people for not making law, finance and culture shaped in accordance with their religion. Why can’t Islam keep itself inside the mosque in non-Islamic countries?

JWT says: “For an Islamic conquest to be a real and not imaginary threat we would probably need a united and powerful Arab World, something like Saladin’s ... We would also need motivation – expansion, resources etc.”

No, the Islamic world doesn’t need to be universally united at all to pursue global conquest at all. Germany wasn’t united under Hitler. All you need is enough people in enough powerful positions to be united with a common agenda and with enough wherewithal at their disposal to purse that agenda.

We are very nearly on the point of no return with that. Saudi Arabia has almost limitless money to push Wahhabi Islam the world over and Iran nearly has the nuclear bomb. Call it division of labour. Iran grabs us by the throat, Saudi Arabia’s Wahhabist program does the talking.

JWT says: “I do agree however with the Hatred of the West (and of Israel as associated with the West), but then what causes hatred?”

This might give you a clue (they‘re teachings from The Koran):

"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." (9:5)

"Make war on the unbelievers [that’s all non-Muslims, JWT - just thought I’d spell it out because you seem unfamiliar with all this stuff] and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." (9:73)

"When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take a ransom from them, until War shall lay down her burdens." (47:4)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."(48:29)

So you see, JWT, it’s known as religious fundamentalism because it’s inspired by religion - and it was around for centuries - well before Mountbatten and Balfour. You think all that is 'imaginary'. None of it is imaginary, it was all made real over the last week in Mumbai as it has been made real in countless cities and countries the world over for centuries over before now.

You say: “In contradistinction to ‘an Islamic Conquest’ we have though all the preconditions of ‘a Western Conquest’.

In that case, you will kindly provide me with the equivalent statements from secular Western governments that speaks of killing Muslims the way that The Koran speaks of killing ‘unbelievers’.

The precondition for any conquest is an ideology - a set of beliefs that drives that conquest. The jihadists have this, all they lack for the present is the power to totally effect that. Until that ideology is changed, we will always be in the same position our ancestors were - defending ourselves from jihadist aggression. You seem to think that the West has an unalterable prospectus similar to that of The Koran‘s designs as set out above. Please give us chapter and verse on it.

Perhaps, JWT, you’ll go and read The Koran, the Hadith, Marx and Gramsci and then you might see where the Islamic terrorists are coming from and how it is that you’ve been so blinded to where they’re coming from.

Verity

Jeb, Texas - Awright!!!!! Excellent!

phil

RJdouglas -try reading at this site it is another view on the delicios carolines accusations
http://www.honestreporting.co.uk/articles/critiques/new/The_Guardians_Week_in_Gaza.asp

Dipper

AQ seeks to establish itself as the dominant ruling force in the muslim world. They are doing this by pointing to the many perceived injustices against muslims round the world, and claiming to be the only group who can resolve these issues for muslims; they use violence to demonstrate their power to set the agenda and force the non-muslim world to act on AQ’s terms. So issues like Palestine and Kashmir matter because they enable AQ to portray themselves as the only people with the ability to act on behalf of the perceived victims.

The solutions suggested here are to variously punish family members, prevent immigration (presumably just muslims) and remove benefits from muslims. All these actions punish individuals by association as defined by their religion. This provides recognises AQ’s claims about the nature of Islam, and ultimately can only strengthen the hands of islamists.

We have nothing to fear from the majority of muslims any more than we had anything to fear from citizens of Irish origin when the IRA bombing campaigns were at their height. We need to support diversity in the Muslim community by refusing to allow any one individual group to speak for Islam, and I don’t accept the notion that we should listen to the Muslim council of Great Britain.

Phil – a march would be nice, but its not something in our power to deliver.

Wallace Edward Brand

"The 9/11 attacks have inspired two diametrically opposed interpretations regarding their "root causes". According to the first school of thought, the attacks were the latest salvo in the millenarian "clash of civilizations" between the worlds of Islam and Christendom, a violent backlash by a deeply frustrated civilization reluctant to come to terms with its long-standing decline.
"For many centuries Islam was the greatest civilization on earth--the richest, the most powerful, the most creative in every significant field of human endeavor" wrote a prominent exponent of this view. "And then everything changed, and Muslims, instead of invading and dominating Christendom, were invaded and dominated by Christian powers. The resulting frustration and anger at what seemed to them a reversal of both natural and divine law have been growing for centuries, and have reached a climax in our own times."

Not so, argues a vast cohort of academics, journalists, writers, and retired diplomats. The attacks were a misguided, if not wholly inexplicable, response to America's arrogant and self-serving foreign policy by a fringe extremist group, whose violent interpretation of Islam has little to do with the actual spirit and teachings of the religion. Not only does Islam specifically forbid the massacre of innocent civilians but the evocation as a jihad in the context of 9/11 makes a travesty of this concept, which means first and foremost an inner quest for personal self improvement and not a holy war as is widely believed. "Muslims have never nurtured dreams of world conquest," runs a typical argument in this vein. "They had no designs on Europe, even though Europeans imagined that they did. Once Muslim rule had been established in Spain, it was recognized that the empire could not expand indefinitely"
See: Karsh, Islamic Imperialism: A History, also his Empires of the Sand showing that Britain's, France's and Russia's efforts to save the Ottoman Empire were undone by Enver Pasha, the Young Turk.

An American

Jeb, Texas
Well done...the best and most concise blog explaining what we are all up against. I sure like plain talking Texans.

Verity

Dipper - So many hazy notions, so little time.

"We have nothing to fear from the majority of muslims any more than we had anything to fear from citizens of Irish origin when the IRA ...".

Protestants and Catholics are both Christians. Neither the Pope nor the Archbish advises them to kill one another for purposes of conversion. (Ireland was a territor war.) Neither does God promise one side or the other 72 virgins for killing people on the other side. Neither does either church style Jews and other unbelievers "descendants of pigs and monkeys ... Neither advocates women not being allowed to leave the house unless draped in black sheets and accompanied by a male, even if it's just a small boy. Neither says that men can have four legal wives, and can legally shed them by saying, "I divorce you" three times.

Neither were killing for world domination for their God.

I think you can spot the differences between the Irish and the Islamic "community".

"I don’t accept the notion that we should listen to the Muslim council of Great Britain." You mean there are people who do accept the notion?

"The solutions suggested here are to variously punish family members, prevent immigration (presumably just muslims) and remove benefits from muslims." Well, I don't think we should punish anyone for he malfeasance of someone else, and I don't think most other of us do, either.

"All these actions punish individuals by association as defined by their religion" ... you mean, similar to the way Muslims murder innocent human beings going about their business in, oh, let's say, Bombay? Or London? Or New York? Or Buenos Aires? Or Madrid? Or Bali? ... oh, wait! Where were we?

You appear to know nothing about the history of this aggression. Clue: It's been going on for 1,400 years, so you can tell they're not going to give up.

The Muslims in Britain and the West in general are the advance guard. The foot soldiers sent in to dig the trenches.

Jihad means holy war, and it is undertaken at the behest of Allah through Mohammad of the Cartoon Mohammads.

Oliver

Dear Melanie,
Thank you so much for your clear words!
They are a credit to our European culture and societies.
Best wishes,
Oliver

John Miller

Melanie,

You have hit the nail on the head. Australia is as blind as the the disunited UK because multiculturalism is a failed doctrine. No country should permit residency to those who seek to destroy it from within.