Histrionics, not history

Jeremy

I don't agree with Andy Hayman. I think that Boris - who, if nothing else, has a sense of history - quickly perceived that what was taking place was a brutish and disproportionate series of raids (and an arrest)which also violated Parliament and the freedom of an Opposition front bench spokesman to do his job. I think that Boris was right to both raise the concerns he did and to express his outrage at what was being perpetrated. I mean....did the police actually think this was a good use of the powers granted to them under anti-terrorist legislation? Did they think it was wise to use anti-terrorist officers to raid the House of Commons for the purposes of stopping up leaks from the Home Office which revealed its own failures in security and immigration control? If the police wanted to arrest somebody for abusing a public office then it wasn't Mr Green they should have gone for, was it?

The words "unctuous hypocrisy" do not even begin to cover Mandelson's statement in relation to this matter. Are we expected to believe that neither he, nor Moses, have ever leaked information or been in receipt of leaked information in the entirety of their political careers? Pull the other one, Mandy - it's got a copy of Bunty on it.

However, your last paragraph was very good. It is this Labour government which has "turned institutionalised mendacity into an art form" with all of the consequences for "mutual trust" within British society that you mention.

David Raynes

There is a significant point missed by most commentators-all actually, that I have seen. Just why was Mr Green arrested? It was simply because, as so often in police work, the Police wished to avoid any external scrutiny of their actions. They wished to use the provisions in PACE (The Police & Criminal Evidence Act) which allows search of premsies following arrest. This is an essential provison of the law but intended for hot pursuit and to stop evidence being destroyed. This does not appear to have been such a case. Honourable law enforcement organisations ensure that when time allows, any search would take place under a Magistrates Warrant. The submitting of such an application with the examination at every stage of the process that follows, significantly and not least, by the Magistrate, might, just might, have given the Police time for reflection. In this case a Stipendiary would have been appropriate. The arrest was a convenience, it was unnecessary and it was wrong, it was designed to cause trouble and to intimidate. Holding Mr Green for nine hours with (apparently) only 1 hours interview was bullying. Such unnecessary arrests are a commonplace event. A minor amendment to PACE could stop this sort of nonsense.

TStern

Well, Ms Philips, I do know what a police state looks like -I used to live in one - and I can tell you that it was not as bad as Britain under Labour.

Ken

“The result is an ugly and dangerous public mood, in which reason, law and the consent of the governed are now all in danger of being trampled underfoot as the maddened people of this once-great nation lose their bearings.”

Exactly and that point really ought to be amplified and extensively discussed. Isn’t it possible that the accumulated corrosive impact of too many years of tainted, deceitful administration is now bearing fruit? The national socialist plan was ever thus according to blog world conspiracists. But there does seem to be much real anger and naked hatred out there. How do you restore sanity to public life in this ancient democracy under such conditions and where people’s livelihoods are threatened thanks to a decade of grotesquely inept state economic policy? In my view you clear out the stables of deceit that masquerade as a government and you roll back 10 years of marxist legislation, every single piece...

Jeremy

I would also like to add that if the police, in the wake of this episode, wish to restore some measure of public trust in them then they should stop throwing themselves about like a bunch of leering, power-drunken gangsters. That might make for quite a good start.

I realise, Melanie, that you and Boris have had your differences of late - particularly over Boris' (I think) disastrous proposal for an amnesty for illegal immigrants - and I have very much taken your side over this. But I do think that in the matter of Mr Green's arrest, Boris said the right thing at the right time and as a consequence he is one of the figures to emerge from the episode with some credit.

By the way, I am amazed that Boris - a person who has obviously read the history of Rome - should have been so foolish and so blind to the consequences as to have proposed an amnesty for illegal immigrants. The empire did not long survive doing a very similar thing.

Jeremy

Some Tories may have implied that we were heading for a police state because of the Green affair - a risible claim indeed. But most have made the perfectly fair point that an MP was arrested on apparently spurious grounds i.e. for releasing information that was in the public interest which clearly exposed the government's inept handling of immigration policy. And quite why Peter Mandelson is more believable than the Tories is beyond me!

www.jeremyhavardi.com

mckenzie

You sound as if you are feeling a bit left out of this one Mel?

William Hannam

You should have waited for the Speaker. Makes you look a bit of a fool. Listening to Mandelson makes you even sillier.

tony

This is the first time ever that I have come to disagree with Ms Phillip's blog, albeit only part of the blog; namely that the UK is a police state.
In my opinion Britain is a police state, but the change has been so subtle that few have noticed it happen. It's a bit like the frog being warmed up in water until it boils to death.
Only a police state would allow millions of cameras to be installed countrywide, among many other less obvious controls.
I too, like the other commentator, TStern, have lived in a police state and even though that state, Zimbabwe, was policed in a hostile manner, it felt far less threatening than the undercurrent of 'big brother' watching you, that exists here.

Jeremy

To add to the comment above, I am afraid that this is one of those rare cases, Melanie, when you 'don't get it.'

phil

do not know enough to comment on the legal niceties of this awful matter,but I do know it is very worrying when our home secretary claims to not know what the `police are doing in so important a matter.So many ugly mistakes have been made in recent years,.not least the cash for honours case,and the hounding of Lord Levy to no avail,.combined with Jean Charles killing and now the raid on parliament -somebody has to take responsibility for the public disquiet that they are provoking -

Most of us grew up in a nation where we trusted the police to be on the side of law abiding citizens and where we had no fear of them ,sadly I believe that is not the case now .Personally I usually accept what Boris puts forward ,in spite of the many attempts to knock him .If I have to choose who to believe it is him ,because behind that facade of boyish humour is a very perceptive man .

Last night on newsnight we heard from the former head of public prosecutions ,a man of obvious intellect and education ,I believe he said he did not think the police interacted sufficiently with his former office (I hope I am right there).

I also have a worry that the qualifications for too many police ,promoted to high office ,are not good enough -I hope in future those attaining high office will be chosen from the realms of the best educated from the best universities ,people who understand the qualities and traditions of this nation,and not those who are merely time served policemen ,no matter how faultless they have been .Their experience and knowledge of police matters would be invaluable but I am afraid history says their decision making is not

Stephen Rothbart

Oh dear, now two major issues I disagreed with Melanie on in just a week!

For someone who can recognise institutional anti-Semitism in much of the Left-wing agenda in Europe and in particular in the UK, I am surprised that she cannot see the creeping Police politicisation that has gone on under this government.

The anti-terrorism law has been used and abused for many things by the Police. There can be no justification whatsoever for using it in this case.

Surely you can see what that means to a democracy, when a Police force, whose leaders get promoted by a Home Secretary based on how PC and how sympathetic to the Office they are, start to act against the Government's critics. Especially when using a law that was designed to protect us from terrorism, not leaks from an incompetent Government. That this abuse gets defended by the Prime Minister and the Home Secreatry, never mind the useless Speaker, you begin to fear for British democracy.

And anyone who takes anything coming out of the lying mouth of Mandelson seriously, begins to lose credibility themselves.

Sorry Melanie, but that was the worst piece you have written as far as I am concerned. I now you 'came out' as a Liberal last week in case people thought you were a Tory, but please, don't lose sight of what is right and what is wrong because of it.

Ian C

Just because Boris had a political affiliation to the matter does not mean that he was not right. That the party political point is made by Mandelson is unsurprising but not necessarily the wrong one also. That the police had overplayed their hand in a case that those in charge knew would become very high profile, at the very least - especially during the few days before the selection of its shortlist for new Chief is the most likely source of this trouble.

Green was playing games with a sympathetic civil servant and hiding behind the leak tradition of generations of sympathetic civil servants and the police were bloody stupid for not dropping by for a chat first - not to mention playing politics on behalf of two of Ian Blair's prospective replacements.

The Speaker clearly rubbed his hands with glee at the prospect and has now passed the buck to the Sergeant at Arms while Labour look pathetic trying to make political capital out of something that they have been the arch-exponents of.

Perhaps they should all have longer holidays so they can't screw us and the state any more than they all do at present. The police already get more holiday than most of the rest of the workforce put together…..aren’t we the lucky ones having such a bunch to preside over national life?

That the party political point is made by Mandelson is unsurprisng but not necessarily the wrong one also.

That the police had overplayed their hand in what the seniors in charge knew would be a high profile one, at the very least, especially during the few days before the selection of its shortlist for new Chief is the most likely source of this trouble.

Green was playing games with a sympathetic civil servant and hiding behind the leak tradition and the police were bloody stupid for not dropping by for a chat first - not to mention playing politics on behalf of two of Ian Blair's prospective replacements.

Labour look pathetic trying to make political cpital out of something that they have been the arch-exponents of.

Perhaps they should have longer holidays so they can't screw us and the state up any more than they all do at present.

David Raynes

I am now being told that Paul Stephenson is claiming there WERE warrants for everywhere but the Commons Office. If true (and let us hope for his sake it is true if he has said that) that makes the arrest and holding of Green for nine hours even more sinister. It also begs several questions, which Magistrate signed the Warrants, what was the "information" given to obtain the warrants-was it true? Under what provision of law was the warrant issued? Was the Official Secrets Act used? If it was, were there any real grounds for that? Did the warrant deal with the number of people to go to the premises? Was that number exceeded? (some reports say nine at Green's house)a staggering and intimidatory number for a private house. Was the magistrate TOLD it was for an opposition MPs house? Was the Magistrate misled in any way?

Paul B

David Raynes is correct, the Police in a majority of cases nowadays always arrest first, think later. Quite intolerable. There is nothing stopping the Police conducting an under caution recorded interview without first arresting the person. If said person then walks out of fails to co-operate then power of arrest can be envoked. Gone are the days when people would be invited in for an interview and catch a cab down to Bow Street.

TomTom

When the Police think they can seize correspondence of constituents to their Member, arrogate details of constituency membership; and cut off electronic communication with a Member by closing down Email; seizing mobile phone and Blackberry; and DNA-typing and fingerprinting a Member of Parliament....I think Constituents and Electors have a right to ask by what Authority a Policeman thinks he may interfere with the democratic system of representation in this country ?

The Police are arrogant and in need of being directly accountable to the Electorate instead of being creatures of the ruling political caste.

It is time the Electorate had a direct say in the Met Commissioner's appointment rather than the dozy former schoolteacher in Petty France.

It is time the Police in this country were accountable instead of being a Political Bureaucracy servicing the needs of their fellow Party Bureaucrats.

You are completely off-beam Melanie. The Police are out of control and the Brown Clique use exactly the same excuse about the Police Apparat as Putin's men use about Lugovoi and other Siloviki killing on contract..."nothing to do with us"

Byron in Wahroonga

***I find myself agreeing with Marcel Berlins in today’s Guardian***

Uh oh.

Melanie, please don't go Peggy Noonan on us? Green's arrest is an event which deserves all the outrage Brits can muster- which thankfully appears to be quite a lot. Now is not the time to go wobbly about the resultant breach of aplomb.

hadrian

Well, Melanie, perhaps the next time you are fed a 'leak' you may pause to consider the consequences for yourself and your household and a possible future trial. Freedom of information is vital; freedom of our MPs to collect information and disseminate it equally inviolable if democracy is to work. A line's been crossed here and let's not pretend otherwise. Broon cannot stand criticism of himself and his fist is all over this one. He has all the instincts of statist mania and this instance proves its a mindset that's seeped into our socialst leaders. This is emphatically NOT 'overreaction' or 'risible' but common sense. How excactly does a police state come into being? Full-blown, or gradually as democracy and ancient liberties die the death of a thousand cuts?

hadrian

....and if you want 'over-reaction' then just why did it take a squad of anti-terrorist bobbies to invade the MPs home, doubtless causing great distress to his wife and family?

Robin

I've read Prof Vernon Bogdanor's article (a rather poor one, I feel) and the comments that follow. Seems to me that the majority of posters felt he was completely adrift and missed the point entirely.

One is tempted to ignore most comment in the Guardian as a matter of principle. On this topic, that would be a valid approach.

Sam Armstrong

Whilst it is no business of ours if Mel likes the Tories or not, as the only real alternative to Labour, she ought to stop dissing them to the extent she has been.

Trying to get people to laugh at the Tories whilst bigging up Brown on BBC TV, slating Boris, and now this.

I am going off Mel. There, I've said it.

Lee Laurie

"I am indeed deeply concerned about the erosion of freedom in Britain,particularly freedom of thought".
Glad to hear that Mel.Hopefully your concerns will be shared by all even when applied to those whose views you don't all share.

Mr H

Dear Mel,

Whilst I respect your opinion greatly you seem out of touch as to what happens to normal folk. When my car was damaged by a joyrider it was observed by a witness who identified the people concerned. Not only did the police let them go - but they refused to give me any details to launch a civil suit as they were under 18 and this would infringe their civil liberties and put them in danger of reprisals (presumably from me).

It seems to most people who I know that have suffered criminals that the criminals rights are what really matters these days - Thats not the fault of the policemen - thats the fault of their masters who "advise" them to act this way on fear of being sacked.

Conservative Cabbie

Phil

"Most of us grew up in a nation where we trusted the police to be on the side of law abiding citizens and where we had no fear of them"

For my sins, I was a policeman back in the early nineties. The rule of law was sacrosanct for me, and before my time in the job, and for years after, a policeman (and the service) got my greatest respect. It saddens me greatly to witness how policing has gone to the dogs. What on earth have labour done?

I disagree with you a little on recruiting. Promotion was always through the ranks, it led to senior officers who knew the demands of policing. It is in recent years that graduate programs have fast tracked the brightest and the best from universities into the top ranks of the police forces. Intelligence does not equate to 'smarts', I'm afraid I don't have too much faith in the correlation between writing a good thesis and being a good thief taker.

W. Smith

Granted, the Tories may indeed be useless: whatever they are, they're not conservative any more (if they ever truly were). ...But quoting with approval a gaggle of Leftists making obvious political hay out of a fiasco really doesn't do Melanie any favours. ...Perhaps she's hoping The Grauniad'll give her back her old job...

Anyway, onto the question of whether Britain is turning into a police state... During the summer I was at a social gathering where I knew next to no-one, and so ended up being introduced to a friend of a friend: he turned out to be a senior policeman attached to The Home Office. Having had recent dealings with the police, I asked him what he thought of criticisms such as those made above. I was a bit wary, as I imagined he was probably sick of hearing them, but to my surprise, he agreed. In fact, he was pretty keen to vent his own frustrations. He said that the police don't actually do what the public pays them to do: political meddling has made it all but impossible. The result is a demoralised target-driven bureaucracy which is a much greater burden on the law-abiding than on the criminal. My interlocutor-in-blue fair oozed despair.

His greatest concern by far, however, was the rise of a surveillance state, and the things which are being done in the name of tackling terrorism. He was particularly worried about what future governments would do with the state apparatus set up by this one. The thing he couldn't understand was how meekly the general population are accepting it. ...It seems, as someone above pointed out, that the British are indeed the slow-cooked frog...

While Melanie's thesis about Islamism is correct, it has given her a blind spot about the police and security services. I well understand the very real threat posed by (currently) dormant Islamist cells --- but I don't trust our bloated and incompetent state to tackle it. The country desperately needs a new broom. Sadly the Tories clearly won't provide it. And who else is there? Untried no-hopers UKIP talk the closest thing to good sense, although Melanie refuses to speak about them (no doubt she believes that they're the BNP in disguise or something equally daft).

It's sad that Melanie persists in supporting the government's false choice between terrorist attacks or creeping Orwellianism. *Both* threats are equally real. She's either a fool or a knave if she insists that only the former is significant.

hadrian

The 'creeping' kind are ever the more dangerous, too,W.Smith, simply by their insidious and decptive nature and a largely credulous and dozing electorate.
I do not agree the Tories are no credible alternative. They are far from perfect, admittedly, but the mere fact of a fresh start is far preferrable to more of the rotten, time-serving bunch of statists we have at present.

phil

Cabbie ,my fault I failed to include common sense in my requirements for high office -I know in my own mind what I wanted to say ,missed it:)I know from my own experience that a degree proves only so much but it is a start,but we have to start somewhere.