Ruling by a Radical

Roland

Oh come off it Mel! How is this in any way different from the post-election emails sent out to their supporters by the Tories, Lib Dems or Labour trying to keep in the fold those who got engaged during an election campaign.
But then - what's the point? Others here have pointed out that you are banging away at this deluded drum, long after Obama won outright, long after all the evidence thet he is going to be a very Centrist President indeed.

robzrob

Oh dear. Communities organising themselves. People getting together to put forward what they want. How awful. Why don't they just leave it to Mel & Co to tell them what to do? Shocking! (Re: 'back in 2001'. Please stop this usage. Do I need to be told that 2001 came before 2008? Perhaps I might confuse the 2001 that's already gone with some 2001 that's in the future, is that it?

Anthony

This is the thing.

The constitution sits there like a lump granite under a castle and he's not stupid enough to walk in and take a sledgehammer to it straight away.

He's get to get the people who live on that lump of granite to hate it before he can touch it.

- "Look at you, folks, with your freedoms supplied by the bedrock of this constitution. It's OK, but it's not Utopia, is it?"

- "Yes, oh holy one. What's the use of this lump of granite? I mean, I know we don't live our lives like the Cubans, the Chinese, the Russians and all those other people who don't enjoy real freedom but what's that got to do with this lump of granite that supports us all?

“Mr Obama, maybe... maybe if we took a sledgehammer to what has provided for our freedom and safety so long, well, maybe we would all enter paradise. Mr Obama, I wonder if I asked you, well, if lots of us asked you, would you take a sledgehammer to it for us?"

- "Well, I never thought you’d ask.”

W. Smith

"...after all the evidence thet he is going to be a very Centrist President indeed"

Define "Centrist".

N

Roland,
Just because you are tired of hearing about it doesn't mean it's wrong or not the truth.

http://www.howobamagotelected.com/

David

"'When President Obama says, "21 members of Congress are standing in the way of my health plan", one out of 10 voting Americans start to go to work on those members of Congress', "

Ah, democracy. We can't have that. Congressmen should completely ignore the people. Who do they think they are?

pcollier

Agree with most people posting.
This sounds like a good thing to me! Bring politics to the people. Why not?

phil

This repetition is becoming paranoid -what on earth would you like this man to do to gain approval ?-Mel you have the bit between your teeth and you will not let go -I cannot say you are wrong but equally you cannot say you are right ,only time will tell -so please can I beg that you use your excellent talents to inform us of many other problems we are facing day to day .If you prove to be right I will publicly apologise for doubting you but it will be some time before we know ,and for sure many here will have disappeared from view without doing the same if I am right .

Gryphon

"Ah, democracy. We can't have that. Congressmen should completely ignore the people. Who do they think they are?"

David, you are misinformed as to the form of American democracy. It was never intended that our representatives be immediately responsive to whatever the majority of people they represent want at any one time. We elect them to represent us, not to slavishly follow the polls.

Straydingo

Roland and fellow blind, deaf and dumb monkeys I have a question for you: have you read Alinsky Rules for Radicals?

I suspect not as if you had you may give some weight to Melanie s analysis (although I am not suggesting you have to agree with it).

David

Precisely. Why they allowed this Obama chap to win just because he had the majority of the vote I don't know. They should have just declared McCain the winner. Real leadership.

Gryphon

"Precisely. Why they allowed this Obama chap to win just because he had the majority of the vote I don't know. They should have just declared McCain the winner. Real leadership."

QED. Thanks for shoring up my argument.

Dixon

Its actually the system of "community" administration by party members at the street level that was used by the Third Reich. It has nothing to do with democracy. The power is vested into the hands of "local" leaders or "organisers", be they called "chair-person" or "Co-ordinator" ( to use the Eighties terminolgy as used in the UK ).

I find that e-mail to be quite chilling indeed. Next theyll be organising group exercises out front on the street of a morning.

robzrob

The Constitution's not perfect. A slave only counted as 3/5 of a person. 'Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons'.

W.B. Harris

It is interesting how the people complain when they hear “cry wolf” too often. If people are willing to listen to only one side of a story, they will never be able to recover when the sheep’s costume is pulled away.

Apologizing will be too late! It has been said if you repeat a lie long enough over a period of time, will be accepted as truth. Our senses are worn down and that’s when the enemy of common sense will be conned and defeated.

For those who aren’t old enough – let me enlighten as well as to those who are old enough to remember… how much TV, radio and newspapers have changed in their content of standards.

That’s what the censors back then were noted for… preventing the type of garbage that is sweeping in this new millennium would not be aired or written. Smut, lies and living immoral life in the open were not visible a few decades ago.

This sort of stuff does not add to the quality of our lives, but destroys it. The thought that everyone is wrong and I’m right has traded places with accountability of our own actions.

The sad thing is that people like Ms. Phillips, town criers for us, shows she really cares, but how many times do we need ‘wake-up calls’ before we the people get off of our duffs and stand up for the rights that we still have – before its to late.

Its easier to complain than it is to go about doing good quietly?

Gryphon

robzrob: "The Constitution's not perfect. A slave only counted as 3/5 of a person."

Perhaps you're unaware that the Constitution, AS AMENDED, has no such provision anymore. No, the Constitution isn't perfect, but at least we have one that can be moved toward perfection.

How's that British Constitution working out again?

jerry

Cloward-Pavin; Cloward-Pavin;Cloward-Pavin; Cloward-Pavin; Cloward-Pavin; Cloward-Pavin; Cloward-Pavin; Cloward-Pavin; Cloward-Pavin; Cloward-Pavin; Cloward-Pavin; Cloward-Pavin; etc.

Conservative Cabbie

Robzrob

"The Constitution's not perfect"

No it's not, but considering it's only been ammended 17 times in over 200 years, it's pretty close to it. (I'm including the Bill of Rights as part of the constitution).

Saturn

robzrob, nobody in America today is treated as three fifths of a person. Or perhaps you’ll tell us where these people who are treated as three fifths of a person are?

You know full well that the clause you quoted was rendered inoperative thanks to the Thirteenth, Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution. Either that or you’re spectacularly ignorant.

The US Constitution has undergone all the reform it needs to. When you start tampering with the very foundations of a country, you need to have very good reason to do so. When this Constitution has served so many people so well for so many years, that suggests it needs leaving well alone.

robzrob’s post exemplifies exactly what Obama is up to: drumming up antagonism against the Constitution via the proxy of these community organizers, which then becomes a pretext for wholesale radical reform.

It will be sold on things like ‘three fifths of a person’ - although no one is - and then that antagonism - it’s what those other friends of Bill Ayers on Ms Phillips’ post headed From The Horse’s Mouth referred to as a ‘smokescreen’ - will be the crowbar Obama uses to lever in as much radicalism as he thinks he can get away with.

An American

W.B. Harris,
Good point.
US Conservatives must stay in contact with their representatives...both state and national.
We need to let them know we are extremely concerned with the direction our country is heading.

We need to keep pressuring these politicians to stay strong and not give in to the ruination of this country as they have in the past 8 years.

We also need to let them know that we are watching their votes and will vote them out if they go along with Obama's plan to socialize our country any further.

We all need to get tough and get busy.

Tom Cat

For crying out loud, phil, leave it out will you?

Melanie Phillips earns her living as a political analyst. She has been posting for months about all this. Now this Alinsky-inspired methodology is being put into effect via this email, she is perfectly right to point it out and to point out that it does indeed support her earlier reasoning. What she spelt out in theory earlier on is now being put into practice.

Conservative Cabbie

David & Gryphon

Re Congress as the peoples representatives.

I think you both partly right, partly wrong if you don't mind me saying.

The House of Representatives was set up by the founding fathers to be precisely what David suggests, the peoples representatives who are intended to do what the people want, hence the reason they only serve for two years.

The senate on the other hand was designed to act as a prevention against the tyranny of the majority as Gryphon suggests. In the original constitution, senators weren't elected directly by the people but by state assemblies so that they could act for the good of the state and the nation rather than responding to the latest whim of the electorate.

The constitution is genius!

David

WHat a lame dissection of a president who's not a radical, attributing community activities to a Marxist agenda, straight out of a Bob Avakian wet dream.

Peter

As you English would say: you're 'spot on', Mel. The entire concept of giving the American people a voice is radical. Although, radical connotes dangerous which in turn suggests we should be afraid to talk with our fellow citizens about our concerns and ideas. We've become so used to feeling powerless, cynical and hopeless that this whole thing could turn very ugly, indeed. What if somebody actually listened to us?

It was decided long ago that the voice of the American people would be heard through the lobbyists. Want to know how to fix our crushing health care problems? Ask the insurance companies.

A reinvention of the relationship with the American people is exactly what we need.

Don't worry so much, Melanie. The real boogy man is about to leave the building.

phil

Straydingo
December 5th, 2008 6:23pm
" Roland and fellow blind, deaf and dumb monkeys I have a question for you: have you read Alinsky Rules for Radicals?"

YUO HAVE SHOWN THE STRENGTH OF YOUR ARGUMENT WITH THE CHOICE OF YOUR FILTHY WORDS -JUST ANOTHER WAY TO PLUMB THE DEPTHS OF DEBATE .

Jeremy

The thing is, Melanie, there is nothing in what you have written above or in your earlier post, "From The Horse's Mouth", which states that Obama is a Marxist who wants to establish a Marxist dictatorship in the United States (with all which that entails).

What your argument does seem to make clear, however, is that Obama is using his earlier experience as a "community organiser" to establish ground-level support for his political programme and the achievement of his political objectives. But those political objectives - at least in so far as they were outlined in "From The Horse's Mouth" - look sane and reasonable to me, given the context of American culture and society. The whole idea of getting people to work together - in a positive rather than a destructive way - to achieve the change they want is very American - and not sinister in itself. However, I would concede that with these "community organisations" Obama could create a popular movement capable - if only implicitly - of bullying any opposition to his political objectives into silence. But whether or not that potential is realised depends very much upon how these "community organisations" are used, how they use themselves and whether or not - looking even further ahead - Obama can control them or they come to control him. That, I suppose, depends upon how radical they become. Such organisations - as we know - can be entered and hijacked by the hard left. That might, in the long run, cause problems for Obama and/or his political successors, either Democrat or Republican. But we have not got there yet, and in any case things might not work out in that way.

Besides which, it also ought to be born in mind that the United States is a republic which was born of a revolution. So the conditions and the traditions are different there from what they are here.

Jackie

Jeremy, Melanie Phillips has never written that “Obama is a Marxist who wants to establish a Marxist dictatorship in the United States”.

We know it isn’t about that sort of political revolution. Radicalists themselves have worked that one out. That’s way too obvious. That’s what Saul Alinksy was about. The whole point about Alinsky’s ideas is to create a mood in the public and then go about manipulating that mood for as radicalist agenda as you can get past them.

The radicalists have moved their tanks on to the turf of - as Melanie Phillips keeps pointing out over and over - cultural revolution. Re-read this post. It’s all there. You bring in Marxian-influenced political ideas through the back door of culture.

“You’re not always happy, are you? No. Sometimes you can feel real bad, don’tcha? Yeah. Do you know what makes you feel bad? It’s what’s already there that makes you feel bad. Maybe if we got rid of what’s there we’d all feel good, all the time. Yeah. Hey, let’s celebrate.

“Yeah, it feels good to get rid of that thing that made y’all feel bad. Woo hoo. What’s that? What’s going to replace that nasty thing that must have been making you feel bad sometimes? Don’t you worry ‘bout that. You just carry on feeling good ‘bout what we’re getting rid of and leave all the details about what’s coming next to me. It‘s OK, Rahm, no Marlboros for us tonight. Oh no. Cigars all round, I think.”

Laura

Jeremy says: �But those political objectives - at least in so far as they were outlined in \"From The Horse\'s Mouth\" - look sane and reasonable to me�.

We hear in that post, From The Horse\'s Mouth, Jeremy, mainly from two people with a very special insight into Obama�s political views and how he has learnt to put those views into effect under - in their words - a �smokescreen�. In other words, they back up all that Melanie Phillips has been talking about on this blog for all these months.

The political objectives that concern Ms Phillips are not the ones put in the shop window - climate change, Hillary etc - that we have read about elsewhere and that are repeated on From The Horse�s Mouth, but the political objectives hidden by that smokescreen. And that�s where things like our community organizers come in.

As in accordance with the teachings of Mr Saul Alinksy, they target quiet revolution - the cultural revolution. Undermine the cultural values and Obama gets where he wants to be without anyone even noticing it. Once the cultural values are gone, he has a free shot - not, as so many people here and on other threads seem to think, at imposing a dictatorship. Not at all. It is about radically trying to alter the relationship of the state to the individual. That is the Marxian nature of all this.

It is about, to quote Melanie Phillips� first paragraph, Barack Obama saying �the American constitution was flawed because it only provided for �negative liberty� �“ which I suggest is what genuine freedom consists of -- as opposed to what the state should do for individuals, or �positive rights� as this is known, which I suggest amounts to state control of individual behaviour�.

That is about as fundamental and radical a change as you could get to the US Constitution. It turns the damn thing on its head. It radically - fundamentally - would change the relationship of the state to the individual.

An American

Jeremy,
So... its ok to leave approximately half of all Americans without a reasoned voice in our future? We should just stand by and let liberal, radical organizers take control of Obama or visa versa...which of course, I don't believe for a minute...Obama is the one pulling all the strings.

Yeah...that makes me sleep really good in regard to my children and grandchildren and their future.

Have you seen the representatives of these organizations...ACORN, etc.
The patients will be running the asylum.

Conservative Cabbie,
I'm learning more about my goverment from a Brit... which I find humbling.

Our constitution is brilliant...isn't it interesting that Obama and his commie buddies believe they know more than our founding fathers. Intelligence doesn't change over the decades...our founding fathers would be turning over in their graves to see what a mess we're making of this gift of a great country they gave us. I only hope we can fight off the thugs who want to destroy it.
I'm good at organizing and I plan to help with some organinzing of my own to offset this looming threat to our nation.

Barackobama

Far from being an Obama innovation, pretending to be moderate in order to win presidential elections and then ruling as a radical is the defining characteristic of many and even most US presidents since 1789. Republican saint Lincoln presented himself as a moderate to win his party's nomination in 1860; appointed rivals and opponents to his cabinet as Obama is doing; appeared to seek peace with the south while really wanting war; freed the slaves when he previously said he would do no such thing and suspended habeas corpus. Woodrow Wilson won in 1916 promising US neutrality but declared war against Germany 17 months later. The clearest example of ruling by a radical was FDR who promised a balanced budget and smaller government but launched massive socialist initiatives. To win in 1940, he consistently promised to keep the US out of the 2nd World War while secretly planning to fight Hitler. FDR more than anyone else helped ensure Stalin's dictatorship was imposed on East Europe.
Ruling by a Radical may be shocking. But it's not new and shouldn't be surprising.

Conservative Cabbie

Jeremy,

That was a great post, although I disagree with some of it.

Ref your comment about not being there yet apropos Obama's bullying, I would suggest that we have certainly seen some evidence of that, particularly with respect to the media. Just some examples:

1. Following an Obama campaign e-mail, supporters flooded a Chicago radio station twice to prevent David Freddoso and Stanley Kurtz talking about their anti-Obama books.

2. There was the Joe Biden incident with the Florida TV station. They gave him a hard time, the Obama campaign responded by refusing to go on the station anymore.

3. I would consider ACORN a bullying community organisation just like you referred to in your post, that Obama has definite links to ACORN is not in doubt.

I realise that these incidents don't make him into a dictator but I find them disturbing. During the campaign, rather than his associations or the other controversies, it was his attitude to the media and dissent that worried me the most, I could see an unpalatable future in his actions. I'm sure that one of the reasons the media was so reluctant to criticise Obama was that they were worried that they would be cut off from access when he became President. It's interesting that during his press conferences at the moment, he calls on reporters from a set list of names.

Maybe this is undue worry, only time will tell, but a politician unwilling to accept dissent is a politician not all that interested in the normative democratic process.

jc

The bullying has already begun. It is no longer permitted in some parts of the US while in conversation with friends or colleagues to mention one's support for anyone other than Obama -- ostracism reigns already, a short step from bullying, and two steps from creating a state religion, called in a previous century 'national socialism.'

Believing oneself in possession of the one true and living truth makes for one-sided conversation ... and oddly enough, it is the 'progressives' who most object to organized religion who believe that literally everyone should be on board with the obsessive certainty of the progressives' views: the new religion.

Majority rule with protection of and respect for minority views is quickly becoming majority rule, period.

Ayers and Co. have done their work by twisting the abysmal US public education system to their own ends.

We are in for hard times, I fear.

Straydingo

Phil, seems as though I got your juices flowing :) - I will put my hand up and admit that I may have been a little to colourful in my description(Being an Aussie we have thicker skin than our Pommie cousins) - however, it was a moment of weakness fuelled by the frustration in the lack of debate that is waged on this blog from those with alternative views to Melanie.

robzrob

Have just ordered 'Rules For Radicals' by Saul Alinsky (an American, by the way). Had never heard of him before. Thanks, Mel.

robzrob

I suppose that if I'd thought about it and looked I'd have found that the 3/5 thing was no longer operative. I just wanted to point it out. I only became aware of its existence recently in the unamended Constitution and was quite shocked. Thanks for directing me. There. I've admitted I was wrong. Is that a first here? :)

David

Too many people drinking the Dem Koolaide
If most people can't or won't see how dangerous Hussein Obama really is this country is finished.

Byron in Wahroonga

****But then - what's the point?***

The point is that, next January, Obama will be taking the oath of office. which requires presidents to swear to defend the Constitution. What value will his oath be, given that he considers the Constitution to be flawed?

Byron in Wahroonga

***This sounds like a good thing to me! Bring politics to the people. Why not?***

Sure. Out of the beerhalls, and into the streets of Munich! That was quite successful, for a time.

Straydingo

Robzrob,

You will find "Rules for Radicals illuminating" snd therefore gain a level of insight into understanding the concerns that Mel is expressing within her posts - This book was also a popular read amongst the Clinton's and Soros clan's.

Jamesj

Americans are so gullible

LogicalUS

Don't you love the leftists here talking about how this is such a great democratic development? Is it really any wonder that leftist revolutions so quickly become dictatorial nightmares since these simpletons are so gullible?

For a clue, idiots, these organizers and rules are only one way. You will get your marching orders from Barry and his handlers.

There has already been an example of what to expect. When journalist, Stanley Kurtz, was attempting to analyze Obama's role and work with the Annanberg Challenge, Obama unleashed his hoard of "brownshirts" on a local news show which was interviewing Kurtz to hound and intimidate the show and silence this critical analysis of the leader.

I suspect that like his history tells us, Obama will be a failure in accomplishing anything as president but he will grow the leftist organizations sucking off our government.

That is what Obama did with the $155 million dollars he wasted with the Annanberg Challenge. All the money was channeled to leftist activists and groups, like ACORN, and virtually none to real educational programs for Chicago's kids. The programs was canceled after a couple of years with an admission of complete failure.

Frank P

Jamesj

"Americans are so gullible".

Come now! We all generalise from time to time, but isn't that just a tad too sweeping? Perhaps a little qualification is necessary? Brevity can be welcome on occasions, but it also indicates vacuity on others.

Frank P

rozrob

Just to get your warmed up before the book arrives, here's a primer:

http://proteinwisdom.com/pub/?p=1818

Some sane fisking with it too, just in case you get too impressed with the Alinsky spiel. :-)

daisey

You folks won't be doing the will of the people, you'll be doing the will of Obama. Facts are facts, no matter when they were written. Facts don't change because they are 7 or 70 years old. These ideas are straight out of Alinski's Rules for Radicals and Karl Marx's books. You will see. What we'll end up with is Southside Chicago politics, what BO was weaned on. Read about it.

phil

straydingo -thank you .-I know a man when I hear from him and saying sorry makes you just that :)
My temper was due to the fact that the abomination known here as mr dinnerjacket referred to us as monkeys .I dont think you meant that .

phil

off subject I know but can anyone explain why Lauras post has all those strange icons -do they mean something and I am misssing it ?

daisey

Of course Obama's plans look "sane and reasonable." Read Alinski one more time. That's the whole idea...to appeal to the masses. The proletariat. Get them angry, make them want to fight. Just like when Obama said to get in your neighbor's face. Get mad. A raging, angry person is not nearly as rational as someone who's actions are not fueled by anger and dissent. Anger gives you a cause. Makes you feel self-righteous. Makes you think everything you're doing, even if harmful or unwise, is for the greater good. Often, the consequences are not even thought out before one takes action.

An American

Barackobama,
A really interesting and thought provoking posting.

Alexandrovich.

Yes Daisey: "Anger gives you a cause. Makes you feel self-righteous. Makes you think everything you're doing, even if harmful or unwise, is for the greater good. Often, the consequences are not even thought out before one takes action."

But enough about Verity for this thread.

Tony Allwright

It appears Obama is simply delivering on the solemn promise he made to ACORN before the election, when he said, “Before I even get inaugurated, during the transition, we’re going to be calling all of you in to help us shape the agenda. We’re going to be having meetings all across the country with community organizations so that you have input into the agenda for the next presidency of the United States of America.”

See for yourself on Youtube,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJcVgJhNaU

ACORN has demonstrated its democratic skills in terms of both radical left-wing activism and also pro-Obama voter-registration fraud (measured in hundreds of thousands).

Mr Obama loves ACORN, having personally delivered training sessions to ACORN members and having given it $800,000 from his campaign funds earlier this year.

If you want to know how he intends to re-shape America, just look at ACORN.

Freedom'sDaughter

Obama stole the election with ACORN. McCain-Palin won; I saw the internal polls that showed them winning. Even Hillary's supporters knew they won, and announced it with the poll results in their website.

Dr. Goo Fee

Robzrob and Gryphon, the reason that a slave was given 3/5 status was that, with slaves, the southern states which were much larger than they are now, (for instance, Georgia was to contain lands that are now Alabama and Mississippi)would have given the southern states an inordinate amount of congressional seats (apportioned based on population) and therefor giving the southern, slave proponent states, a majority of power in congress. To stem this the founding fathers alloted 3/5 status to reduce the number of congressional seats the south would get.
As for most of the posters, you show that you are the ideal recruit for an Alinsky-type movement. You gladly buy into the populist-centrist rhetoric while ignoring the indsidiousness of the true agenda, which is more government power and control over people. In the U.S. we would call you "useful idiots".

Paulrevere

Settle down folks. In two years the Social Democrats will be voted out and two years after that BHO will be back in Chicago. Look at the recent election for Senator in Georgia. That was an honest election, participated in by the voters that count. They voted cause they wanted to and love this country, and not paid, coerced or bussed in from out of state. The working tax paying people of this nation will prevail.

Carlotta

None of what all of you are throwing back and forth to each other will matter if the Supremes determine that Obama is NOT a natural born citizen of the United States...

debbie

There is a huge birth certificate problem and for some reason Obama doesn't think he needs to comply. Why has he already spent a million dollars to protect his birth records and his college records. What is he hiding? How did Obama travel to Pakistan in the 1980's? Pakistan would not have allowed him in their border with a U.S. passport back then. If he takes over the whitehouse without verifying his citizenship the Constitution will be destroyed the second he takes office. When Bush's leaves I will be scared to death. Obama is talking about building roads, schools and bridges. Does he not realize that we are in the biggest economic crisis since the Great Depression? Obama wants to keep spending money we don't have. If you had $5,000 left to your name would you have a concrete driveway poured or would you save it for a rainy day? If democrats keep spending until the pot runs dry who will take care of us? Will it be China, Japan, India, Russia or France? All I can say is come January democrats will have all the control they want. Whatever happens will be well deserved.

Verity

Paulrevere - Dream on. What has already prevailed in the United States is the non-working taxpayer, catered to by the socialists, who are communists by a softer name.

My solution, disenfranchise the welfare sector. When welfare dependents can't vote themselves pay rises any more, politicians will stop catering to them. Politicians are nothing if not pragmatic people.

Atlas

"Who is John Gault"

Verity

Goo Fee - Thanks for the laughs.

You write of the posters on this most conservative of publications: "As for most of the posters, you show that you are the ideal recruit for an Alinsky-type movement."

Well, there's Melanie Phillips cleverly unmasked.

"You gladly buy into the populist-centrist rhetoric while ignoring the indsidiousness of the true agenda, which is more government power and control over people."

Gosh, how is it no one at The Speccie ever thought of that before. I mean, major hmmm ...

Here's the best bit: "In the U.S. we would call you "useful idiots". In the US? Isn't that the term the Russian Lenin used? You're trying to tell us it's an American term?

I'm not prejudiced against Neanderthals in any way and I realise you have own publicly-funded support group, and it's no shame, but when you walk, do your knuckles bump on the rocks?

You write: "You gladly buy into the populist-centrist rhetoric while ignoring the indsidiousness of the true agenda, which is more government power and control over people."

My fellow Speccie readers, we are instructed to straighten up and fly right by a moron.

Aurora Esperanza

To clarify further, the 3/5th evaluation of slaves was to block the slave states from controlling the House of Representatives. The slaves increased the population in the south (often outnumbering the whites) and thereby increased the number of Representatives, but the slaves had no chance of voting. Since slaves were sold as chattel or property, it is interesting that they were counted at all. It was hoped to be a political means of putting a brake on slavery which many thought would die out soon. Slavery ended in England in about 1827. BTW whites in the southern states had to pay a poll tax which limited the white voting public there. This can be seen in early tax records.

Gnomus

Pauldrevere, you are nuts; voters can't be bussed in from out of state.

Cara C

Very scary stuff. Americans, be prepared to fight back against the coming Marxist dictatorship.

SON OF TOLUI

yo brits--youse should be informed that madam hilary was also a devotee of alinsky --she worked for him in chicgo-and wrote her senior college theses on his techniques--melanie phillips is a british national treasure--a female paul revere--and you are what lenin called "useful idiots"--what obama proposes is liberal facism--its scary and i'm worried for my country--the last time a certain german democratically elected charismatic demigogue inspired the community--read masses--things didn't work out too well--what next --block watchers a la cuba--this is not how americans traditionally effect their government--it smacks of THE BUND!!

Chrisso

Sounds eerily similar to the aftermath of the Australian election. The new left-wing PM Kevin Rudd called a 2020 Summit of Australia's 'greatest' thinkers and minds to formulate the country's future plans. This followed a long election campaign where he proclaimed that he already had all the answers and plans to take the country forward.

Of course the summiteers where a hand picked mob of celebrities,social commentators and worringly, leading members of the media. This buy-in of support therefore shored up an ongoing compromised fan club that can no longer criticise the Rudd government. Job done.

The Guzman The Good Fan Club

This why so many ordinary people in South America are just baffled beyond belief that America has voted for Barack Obama. So many of them are forced to live with an over-mighty state - and Disneyland it is not. Barack Obama�s MTV-style celebrity supporters probably have too much coke up their nose to even notice them.

The American Dream that so many South Americans aspire either to escape to or to see adopted more and more by their own countries has elected a US President who thinks the Constitution that safeguarded all this freedom for so many years is �imperfect�.

I tell you what, it must be damn near perfect if so many people risk life and limb to live under its auspices every year. But what does that matter next to some inane chant of �Yes, we can.�

Israel

Paulrevere:

"Settle down folks. In two years the Social Democrats will be voted out and two years after that BHO will be back in Chicago. Look at the recent election for Senator in Georgia. That was an honest election, participated in by the voters that count. They voted cause they wanted to and love this country, and not paid, coerced or bussed in from out of state. The working tax paying people of this nation will prevail."

I'm sorry but what colour are the clouds on your planet?

Chambliss won a RUN OFF ELECTION because he FAILED TO WIN THE GENERAL ONE AGAINST TWO OPPONENTS. That right, this time the third party candidate was not involved in the run off splitting the vote. Also the run off election had a much lower turnout than the general election proving once again that low turnouts favour republicans.

The bit which paul and other republican supporters who are touting this win for Chambliss as some sort of vindication of republican views and values as well as a beginning of a backlash against President Elect Obama (god, l love typing that!!)seem to be forgetting is that this was a run off election in Georgia where the incumbent was a republican. DEEP RED GEORGIA!!! And only after it had gone to a run off where you had to bring all the top republican guns up to shill for an incumbent who would normally win by at least 10% in this, one of the reddest of red states!!!

Maybe you should concentrate more on that than crowing about the fact that you managed to just keep the seat.

An American

Israel,
I assume by your posting name that your may be Jewish.
Can you explain to me why American Jews have always leaned to the left politically and vote predominantly Democratic?
It seems that the right and Republican politicians are much more supportive of protecting Israel that the Democratic left.
I would appreciate hearing your opinion on this.
Thanks.

Israel

I am not Jewish. I am from a family that does claim a deep religious background both protestant and catholic which means a lot of kids (cousins, second cousins, etc) with religious names and me causing trouble at family gatherings as a child yelling out the name Emmanuel (but that's another story).

As to why American Jews have leant politcally to the left im not to sure.

If it's all the older folk who moved down to Florida for their retirement it could be because they were subject to the disgusting and less than subtle racism as depicted in the 1947 Elia Kazan film "Gentleman's Agreement" starring Gregory Peck.

It could be the right wing witch hunt in the '50s led by Joe McCarthy which saw a lot of very good Americans (mainly Jewish) who were thrown out of their jobs and wrongly branded traitors because they didn't follow in the rightwing lockstep and made very good scapegoats.

It could be the rightwing cristianists who sneeringly remark on "New York Values" or "Hollywood Values" as a euphemism for "Jew" just as "San Fransisco Values" has become a euphemism for support of Gays and Lesbians.

It could be because they didn't want to follow the Southern Democratic racists who all moved to the GOP when Johnson passed the Civil Rights Bill and actually thought that equality was something worth fighting for and having considering what Jewish people had been though for hundreds (if not thousands) of years and the fact that the party of Lincoln had drifted far away from that history and ideal .

Or, and this is the one l think personally is the strongest reason, most American Jews (unlike Joe Lieberman) remember that they are Americans first and it's the support and protection of the United States which has priority on their time and efforts.

Then again i'm just assuming, as you did with my name, and we both know what assumption is the mother of don't we?

;-)

(I Jest!!!!!)

An American

The Gusman, The Good Fan Club,

Believe me...I feel your angst.

Although the vote showed that a small majority...52% elected Obama President.

47% of the American public didn't vote at all.

This is truly alarming in the face of what is happening to this country.

The problem is that we have a very liberal media and Democratic Congress that year after year...month after month ...day after day...told the American public how incredibly terrible everything was in this country. Even though, until recently, our ecomony was booming and we hadn't had a terrorist attack for seven years.

If you say...lie...about something long enough...President Bush was demonized... people will actually begin to believe what you are telling them.

That's what has happened in the US. We have a very lazy, politically uninformed populace who were hoodwinked.

The leftists and uninformed brain-dead voted for that cute black guy with a nice smile that told them how terrible everything was and that if elected, he, the Messiah, would make it all right.

Now back to reality...he isn't pulling out of the war that he promised to do so immediately. He isn't going to tax those lousy SOB rich people...at least, not right away, etc.
You get the idea. The American left has been duped... at least, so far. Our only hope is that he continues on duping them.

If not, the US will have a leftist, socialist President for the first time in it's history.

God help us and our great country.

phil

AN AMERICAN -I think you may be mistaken and Israel is in fact an African American -maybe he will tell us .but for me it is not important anyway

-As for the Jewish population of America I am not sure, but if it is the same as the Uk was .the Jews were precluded in the main from most things controlled by the right (upper classes )like golf clubs ,Conservative party , the professions etc etc and so they gravitated to the socialist party who were more receptive to working class people which the early Jewish immigrants in the main were .As they became more established some actually became MP,s in the Labour party and the population assimilated its Jews ,but the tradition has lingered .

Things are now somewhat different and the golf clubs to a certain extent have opened up ,but in any case there are Jewish golf clubs which happily accept all creeds ,is that the case in the USA ?its not my experience in Florida . The professions have also become absolutely open as has the Conservative party .This is just a background to the reasons for Jewish leanings towards the socialist side and may well tell you the same tale in the USA .I would have thought as the Jews of America became more accepted they would have moved more to the Republican way of thinking as they are by nature quite entrepreneurial ,but the compassionate side of socialism is still quite deeply felt amongst the descendants of the early immigrants -penitence prayer and charity is still probably the best known words in Jewish prayer and a huge part of the Yom Kippur service which even the least religious attend .Thus the softer side of politics attracts them .

Both parties claim to support Israel and certainly O gave an emotional speech to AIPAC as did Hillary -the Republicans also have shown solid support for their only Democratic ally in the middle east ,it just remains to be seen whether both sides can be trusted .Personally I believe the overwhelming majority of Jewish people want not only peace but fairness and justice for all the peoples of the area -it is certainly my choice .

phil

Israel-hope I got you correctly -I dont mind what you are- you are ok with me

Hannah

‘Israel’ given the history of Democrat success in Georgia, this year, of all years, it should have been a shoo-in for the Democrats. And don’t worry, the non-cultists among us are having plenty of fun too.

The news channels were banned in our place for the whole of the Mumbai siege after I kept walking in and saying things like: “I thought they were only upset with ‘US foreign policy’? Is it not all Mr Bush’s fault after all?”

I was told that what provoked the household 24-hour news ban was not my saying that but my bursting into laughter after a 30-second wait for a (still unforthcoming) answer from three Obama cultists. Oh dear.

They all thought the news channel ban would only need to be imposed for 24 hours as they thought the whole thing would be over quickly.

I did manage to keep quiet for a bit but after it was all over I couldn’t resist walking in the living room with my sunglasses on and scarf over my mouth in tribute to the Indian commandos - I used a stars and stripes headscarf for the top part to show solidarity. Didn’t go down too well. I don’t think they like reminding what the jihad is.

I think they all thought that with an Obama-presidency the boot was entirely on their foot - but they don’t seem to like being on the receiving end of free kicks themselves.

I think I might enjoy this four years after all!

An American

Phil,
My latest post didn't make it on for some reason.
Thank you for your reasonable response. I agree with your assumptions.

Israel, Thank you also for your response. I think you would have scored more points if you hadn't taken such a hard left stance on Conservatives like myself.

EC

An American,

Do you know of Fred Thompson?
I received this link from the colony this afternoon and was most amused to view his video.

Fred on the economy ....
http://www.fredpac.com

It's the same deal over here!

Anthony

I caught that pathetic thing on one of the Channel 4 supplementary channels, The Daily Show, the other week.

It was the first time I had seen it post-election and they had nothing to say whatsoever it seems, not because it was a hard news day but becuase the army of 'comedy' writers on that show have spent the last seven years getting a laugh not by writing jokes but by slipping the word 'Bush' into every other sentence. Cue gliberal laughter.

And now? It seems the Messiah is above satire - not that they could write any anyway.

Israel

Hannah:

What you wrote made almost no sense whatsoever, unless it was a half-a**ed attempt to say something about the India/Pakistan situation which has been going on for decades. Thank you for showing all here what 8 years of republican foreign policy and watching FoxNews will get you, although you will have to explain the supposedly funny headscarf thing. I still find it funny that you think that a run off election in deepest red state Georgia (for a six year republican incumbent who was not involved in any kind of scandle)with a low turn out is something to keep hanging your hat on, as well as calling Obama supporter cultists when most conservatives use any chance they get to call themselves "Reagan conservatives" (for a reference watch any of the republican primary debates again). The really amazing thing is that the general consensus expounded by NRO, Redstate, Limbaugh, Hannity, Huckerbee, et al that a hard turn further right will bring all those who didn't vote for you this time back to the fold is something you think is worth considering!!!

Oh, by the way Obama becomes POTUS in January. The actions in Mumbai, like the financial collapse, is happening under Bush. I know you guys are like him and like to forget who is supposed to be in charge, but most people do still remember.

An American:

I wasn't looking to score points. I'm sorry if any were offended by my "hard left stance" and l offer the same compassion, respect for their views, and understanding shown by conservatives to us who were against the Iraq invasion in 2002/2003.

Israel

EC:

Just watched that link you put up for Fred Thompson. My god, l cannot BELIEVE he was a seroious contender for president. Then again republicans do love them some actors!! What is really funny is that this former republican member of congress fails to mention who was in charge when all the bills that led to the deregulation of Wall Street were passed, and who is the president at the momnet whose financial team are in charge of the bail out. Funny that.

Anthony:

You don't think they wrote any jokes on the Daily Show and all they do is put up the word "bush" and everyone laughs?

I can see that you are not a regular or long time viewer. If you were you would have seen all the reporting on Clinton and Lewinski, the Florida 2000 recount and the lack of backbone with the democratic congress as well as the funniest thing they did, when Cheney shot that old bloke with a shotgun. The fact is that Bush has been the greatest gift to comedy writers in decades, just for his offical interviews. If l were you l would stay away from David Letterman's show and his "Greatest Moments in Presidential Speeches" segment. It would probably make you cry.

The Doktor

A Taste of Alinsky's Rules for Radicals

Some of these rules are ruthless, but they work. Here are the rules to be aware of:

RULE 1: "Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have." Power is derived from 2 main sources - money and people. "Have-Nots" must build power from flesh and blood. (These are two things of which there is a plentiful supply. Government and corporations always have a difficult time appealing to people, and usually do so almost exclusively with economic arguments.)

RULE 2: "Never go outside the expertise of your people." It results in confusion, fear and retreat. Feeling secure adds to the backbone of anyone. (Organizations under attack wonder why radicals don't address the "real" issues. This is why. They avoid things with which they have no knowledge.)

RULE 3: "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy." Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)

RULE 4: "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules." If the rule is that every letter gets a reply, send 30,000 letters. You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules. (This is a serious rule. The besieged entity's very credibility and reputation is at stake, because if activists catch it lying or not living up to its commitments, they can continue to chip away at the damage.)

RULE 5: "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon." There is no defense. It's irrational. It's infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions. (Pretty crude, rude and mean, huh? They want to create anger and fear.)

RULE 6: "A good tactic is one your people enjoy." They'll keep doing it without urging and come back to do more. They're doing their thing, and will even suggest better ones. (Radical activists, in this sense, are no different that any other human being. We all avoid "un-fun" activities, and but we revel at and enjoy the ones that work and bring results.)

RULE 7: "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag." Don't become old news. (Even radical activists get bored. So to keep them excited and involved, organizers are constantly coming up with new tactics.)

RULE 8: "Keep the pressure on. Never let up." Keep trying new things to keep the opposition off balance. As the opposition masters one approach, hit them from the flank with something new. (Attack, attack, attack from all sides, never giving the reeling organization a chance to rest, regroup, recover and re-strategize.)

RULE 9: "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself." Imagination and ego can dream up many more consequences than any activist. (Perception is reality. Large organizations always prepare a worst-case scenario, something that may be furthest from the activists' minds. The upshot is that the organization will expend enormous time and energy, creating in its own collective mind the direst of conclusions. The possibilities can easily poison the mind and result in demoralization.)

RULE 10: "If you push a negative hard enough, it will push through and become a positive." Violence from the other side can win the public to your side because the public sympathizes with the underdog. (Unions used this tactic. Peaceful [albeit loud] demonstrations during the heyday of unions in the early to mid-20th Century incurred management's wrath, often in the form of violence that eventually brought public sympathy to their side.)

RULE 11: "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative." Never let the enemy score points because you're caught without a solution to the problem. (Old saw: If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Activist organizations have an agenda, and their strategy is to hold a place at the table, to be given a forum to wield their power. So, they have to have a compromise solution.)

RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

An American

EC,
Thank you for the Thompson tip...he tells it like it is.

Incredible.

Please, every American, check into Thompson's little fireside talk.

The inmmates are not only running the asylum, they built it and it's now in foreclosure.

One thing Fred said that didn't ring true was that only our children and grandchildren would have to worry...I think older people who will be depending on social security need to worry.

I can't imagine how older people who don't have medical insurance, haven't saved, haven't paid their homes and cars off...must be feeling after watching this.

I have been frugal...maybe that comes from being poor at times as a child. I'll only have to worry about my heating and food bills til I kick off.

Of course, my main worry is for our children and grandchildren...how can these govermental fools possibly keep right on doing this?

Has the US gone crazy...to have voted the same politicians in that are responsible for this fiasco...both Democrats and Republicans.

And...don't forget the Messiah who wants to spend even more on his socialist agenda.

Common sense tells me that this will all collapse...and frankly the sooner, the better, before more damage is done.

I see a revolution on its way...Washington's anointed will be lucky to get out of town with their heads intact.

An American

Israel,
I think the Doktors'... Alinsky's Rules for Radicals were posted for your benefit...

Yeah, yeah...I know it's all the Republicans' fault...all of it. The liberal Democrats, going all the way back to Clinton, didn't have a thing to do with this mess we're in.

Both socialist Democrats and weak Republicans are at fault..I'm sure there are a few politicians that stood on principle for what was right for this country's future...but I could probably count them on one hand.

Come on Israel...show us that you have some common sense and a sense of fairness.

Israel

The Doktor:

Wow. That was some list!!! Seems to me that Newt Gingrich, Tom Delay, Karl Rove and Dick Cheaney have all read the book as well as James Dobson, Pat Robertson and that Bozzell bloke who keeps writing to the FCC about smut. It's like every tactic the right and their media arm (Washington Times, NRO, Weekly Standard, Judith Miller, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity, et al) do when they all get sent the white hose memos on a monday morning!!!

An American

Israel,
Ahh...that tells it all. You watch Letterman. Talk about a complete fool...and he isn't even funny. Just a bitter, mean old man.

An American

Israel,
I'm laughing while I write this...You, kid, are a lost cause.
You seem quite young, so I'll forgive you for your venom. Good luck in the future...I really mean this. You're going to need it. We're all going to need it.

Anthony

Israel complains: "Hannah: What you wrote made almost no sense whatsoever, unless it was a half-a**ed attempt to say something about the India/Pakistan situation which has been going on for decades."

No. It's about much more than India/Pakistan, as James Forsyth explains here:

www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3073291/a-horrifying-agenda.thtml

Conservative Cabbie

Israel

"Then again republicans do love them some actors"

Well considering that Reagan was one of the best Presidents of the 20th century whilst the last two democratic Presidents were either incompetent or venal, I'll take the actors thankyou.

As for George Bush, strange that you haven't complimented him on his actions in Africa, or does it not fit in with your prejudices. By making the largest single health investment any where in the world, Bush has enabled a 40 fold antiviral treatment of AIDS in sub-saharan Africa, from 500,000 to over 2 million people. As Bob Geldof said, "he has done more for Africa than any previous US President". Additionally, he has thrown his full support behind providing 25 million maleria nets and has tripled development assistance to the region. I'd say that that's a legacy to be proud of.

israel

Anthony:

Thank you for confirming that what hannah said was a half-a**ed attempt to comment on the India/Pakistan conflict. James Forsyth did a much better job!!!

israel

Conservative Cabbie:

If you really think that the legacy of George W Bush, the worst POTUS in American history, will be what he did in Africa then you have rocks in your head.

Whatever the spin that comes from you, professional republican media spinners like Hannity or NRO, republican congress people or Karl Rove the simple fact is that he will be remembered as the man who ignored the 6th Aug 2001 security memo, who still has a gaping hole left in the financail centre of New York with no sign of doing anything about it, who had the chance to unite the world behind him but divided it instead, who used false information to invade another country, who sat back and let his vice president and oil buddies set up a energy policy to rake in as much as possible, who gave no bid contracts to companies who supported him in his election so they made profits off his illegal war, who let mercenaries ride roughshod over foreign lands milking as much as possible but denying active soldiers a raise or a break, who diminished America's standing around the world by authorising then ignoring the torture that was done on his behalf, who has been fine with the imprisonment without trial of people who have not been charged with a crime and will probably not face a court because they were tortured, who tried and failed to privatize the US social security system (which is a good thing in this current economic climate), whose govenrment foirst ignored, then edited reports on climate change putting a mid 20's political hack in charge of NASA, the west's foremost scientific leadership, who tried to politisize the US justice department and fill it with third rate lawyers chosen for their loyalty to him and his party not to the law so that they would falsely prosecute the opposition in the lead up to elections, who was involved with the outing of a CIA undercover agent as payback for exposing one of the lies told to go to war, then commute the sentence of the one man convicted because it would save his own hide, who only ever broke from his many, many vacations to try to pass a law as a sop the the extreme right wing christianists in his party to "save" a woman who was only alive because of the machines she was plugged into, who has eroded and reversed as many of the ecological laws as he can to enable his backers to pillage as much of the US's natural beauty as possible, the hell with safety or the future, who has illegally wiretaped US citizens contrary to the law and last of all the worst of all, LEFT A CITY OF PEOPLE TO DROWN FOR FIVE DAYS WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING.

You're right cabbie, in the light of all of the above, which l just remembered without looking up on-line, the one thing that George W Bush will be remembered for is his AIDS policy in Africa. It's like telling someone that their house burnt down and all their family died a horrible death but at least you saved their pets!!! I also love the Geldof quote. I wonder how many on this site have had a good thing to say about HIM over the years. I'm sure it must choke a bit having to use him in as a defence for the Worst. President. Ever.

Saturn

What a load of rubbish, Israel.

And it all builds up to this finale (capital letters - oooh!!):

“LEFT A CITY OF PEOPLE TO DROWN FOR FIVE DAYS WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING.”

Only, just like the rest of your post, it doesn’t stand up, does it? A poster here called Verity would have told you that. She’s already given a summary of why all those people in Katrina suffered - and it wasn’t because George Bush had abandoned them. Quite the opposite. Verity, back in July, explains:

‘Remember during the "hurricane" - which turned out to be a tropical storm passing through Louisiana on its way to Mississippie - when President Bush called the governor - then Governor Blanco - and asked her for permission to send in Federal troops to help with the "hurricane" - although by then it was a tropical storm, not a hurricane" and she kept refusing? Because she was still cutting deals? Remember, the third time Mr Bush called her from the White House and asked whether she would accept troops in Louisiana, that drooling mess by then, with thousands of stupid welfare recipients who hadn't taken care of themselves holed up in the Superdome??’

www.spectator.co.uk/email/coffeehouse/861131/coffeehousers-wall-28-july-3-august.thtml

www.spectator.co.uk/americano/2050226/will-hurricane-gustav-dent-mccains -hopes.thtml

And you have the gall to accuse others of 'spin'.

Verity

Carlotta and Debbie - How have Ayers and the acolytes got the birth certificate issue through so much so far?

Yesterday, one other challenge was rejected. Clock this:
"WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court has turned down an emergency appeal from
a New Jersey man who says President-elect Barack Obama is ineligible to
be president because he was a British subject at birth." Read the rest: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6153023.html

There now remains only one appeal with legs and that is from Philadelphia Lawyer Philip J Berg, who contends that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii at all but in Kenya. He cites the many interviews his (naive to say the least) Kenyan grandmother has told about being present at his birth.

The Secretary of State of Hawaii meanwhile, has confirmed that Obama may also be a citizen of Indonesia. I find this likely because I saw a photo of his school record, and under "Citizenship" it had "Indonesian". If he really was born in Hawaii and entitled to an American passport, wouldn't any mother be down at the US Embassy in Jakarta with his birth certificate applying for a US passport, the most desirable passport in the world, for him? That she didn't might tell us that she, too, was not in possession of an American passport for her son.

He was young enough to travel on his mother's passport to Indonesia, but what then? When he needed his own passport, why did she not get him an American one, as any mother would, if she could? Instead, I believe I read (cannot remember where; it was months ago) that he returned to the United States on an Indonesian passport.

This has all been airily dismissed ... with no proof.

Israel

Saturn:

"With thousands of stupid welfare recipients who hadn't taken care of themselves holed up in the Superdome??"

Wow. Just wow. Conservative compassion shown again for what it really is. Just ignoring the fact that they had no means to pay for hotels and no personal transport and calling them stupid. And this from that bastion of moral christian values who likes to spout them from her high horse. I didn't think the levels of contempt l had for her could be greater until now. Thank you Saturn, you have done me a favour. Now l know the type of person she is and the values she holds. I just hope she has the guts to walk up to one of the people who she called a "stupid welfare recipient" or those who had relatives die in St George's Parrish and explain to them how it was all their fault.

Verity

Oh, Saturn, my last post was sent before yours arrived on the site, making mine de trop! I hope readers will forgive me! And thank you for remembering this, because it's an important indicator of how the leftwing media engineer facts to serve their totalitarian programme.

Katrina was a real hurricane, but it was on its way to Mississippi and did damage through accompanying heavy fringe rains - that accompany all hurricanes - on its way through NO. There would have been no flooding if the levvies had held. Remember that. And President Bush was standing by to send in the troops the minute Blanco said "OK".

Israel

Saturn:

By the way, just where was l wrong about Bush ignoring the 6th August 2001 National security briefing, or the fact that no building stands on the World Trade Centre site after seen years, or the fact that the world was united on 12/11/2001, or the false evidence given by "curveball" or Chalabi or the fake Niger documents, or the closed session meetings between Cheney and the oil companies, or the No Bid contracts to Halliburton and KBR, or the money that Blackwater mercenaries are making while real soldiers are on their fourth or fifth re-depolyment for a lot less, or Gitmo, or Abu Ghraib, or George Deutsch over-riding and editing the work of James E. Hansen at NASA, or Monica Gooding from Regent University Law school who somehow became the third most powerful lawyer in the US at the age of 33, or the firing of nine US attorneys for not prosecuting democrats or persuing false claims of voter fraud, or exposing N.O.C CIA agent Valerie Plame as payback for her husband's July 6, 2003 New York Times editorial entitled "What I Didn't Find in Africa", or commuting I Lewis "Scooter" Libby's sentence, or braking his vacation (the only break he has EVER done) to pass a bill on March 21st 2005 to "save" Terri Schiavo at the bequest of dobson and falwell, or his laughable "clean skys" act (or ecologic policy in general), or his sops to the mining companies and the dereguation of safety standards, or the illegal NSA wiretaps and the retro-active immunity from prosecution for the people involved, or the fact he was yukking it up playing air guitar then celebrating with John McCain who he presented a birthday cake to when Katrina hit?

Prehaps you can tell me where i'm spinning all of these actions by the Worst. President. Ever.

Verity

Israel again: "I just hope she (me) has the guts to walk up to one of the people who she called a "stupid welfare recipient" or those who had relatives die in St George's Parrish and explain to them how it was all their fault."

Sure. Point to one and I'll ask.

Why didn't they leave when they knew there was a chance that the levvies would be breached and this vast, vast lake would flood the city?

There were scheduled buses and planes and, of course, private cars, leaving all the time before it got absolutely critical, but they chose to be passive, waiting for the government to help them while sitting in front of their TVs. Not all. Some of them who had get up and go, got up and went.

But the passive ones are the ones who ended up in this nightmareish Superdome, where lawlessness was quickly rife. Men were sitting up all night in circles while their wives and girlfriends slept. There were a couple of murders. And rapes. What happened in NO is outrageous beyond belief in this day and age and the failure was down to local management. (Mayor Nagins was safely holed up throughout on the top floor of the Sheraton. Governor Blanco was safe in the Governor's Mansion - now occupied by the superb Governor Bobby Jindal - in the state capital, Baton Rouge.)

I will mention once more that Nagins had ordered - I think it was 300, perhaps fewer, I can't remember after this time - school buses gassed up and ready to go to bus the stragglers out. The water inched up and up and up in the school bus parking lot, and the order to get them out on the streets was never given.

However, an enterprising teenage boy - as is the American way - a black boy as it happened - took matters into his own hands by simply walking into the school bus parking lot hut and taking a key off the keyboard and revving up a bus. He drove around the streets saying he would take the old, the infirm and children. Keep in mind, this was a teenage kid in charge of this bus he had "requisitioned".

When he got a full busload, he set off for Houston, which is, if memory serves, around 300 miles away. Perhaps further. The bus ran out of gas and this kid pulled over and asked his passengers for any money they could spare. He bought what gas that money would buy and got back on the highway.

Don't forget, this is a teenage kid.

Next time he saw they were running low, and knowing everyone on board had contributed what they could, he pulled over on the highway and stopped cars that were also fleeing NO, and begged for money. This being America, he got it. Gassed up again and got his passengers to the Houston Astrodome, where they had beds, a safe system for people to sleep and had already installed a swipe card facility. Houston is wonderful, but that's an aside.

This was a teenaged boy who rescued a busload of people.

Jackie

‘Half-a***ed’ Hannah may have been, ‘israel’, but at least she was accurate - unlike the guff you keep churning out. The nonsense about Katrina is just the high point in a sea of drivel. Yes, those poor people clearly were ‘stupid’ and as such were clearly in need of help - help that George Bush was wilfully prevented from giving to them by the Democrat governor.

Checkout this little piece (http://newsbusters.org/node/953), headlined:

Mayor Nagin Praises Bush, Blames Gov. Blanco For Failures in New Orleans

Let us remind ourselves, israel of your accusation, and since it happened in 2005, you’ve had more than enough time to get your facts together and you clearly like posing as some sort of authority on these things. You say Bush “LEFT A CITY OF PEOPLE TO DROWN FOR FIVE DAYS WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING”

This is what Mayor Nagin says to that: “I can't stand any more promises. I don't want to hear any more promises. I want to see stuff done. That's why I'm so happy the president came down here because I think they were feeding him a line of bull also. They were telling him things weren’t as bad as it was, he came down and saw it and he put a general on the field. His name is general Honore. When he hit the field, we started to see action.”

This is the man who you say let people die “WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING”

Mayor Nagin continues “He [Bush] called me in that office after that and he said, Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor. I was ready to move today. The governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision.

“She [the Democrat governor] said she needed 24 hours to make a decision. It would have been great if we could of left air force one, walked outside, and told the world that we had this all worked out. It didn't happen. And more people died.”

So wow. Just wow. That’s how loose your grip on reality is, israel. You might say it’s Democrat “compassion shown again for what it really is”. And you dare to talk about people who just ignore facts. Why don’t you go down to St George's Parrish with that news article in your hand and tell all those people why their relatives died so they can see for themselves. It might be more constructive than smearing people.

Jojo

Israel - the second of those two hyperlinks provided by Saturn has Verity giving enormous detail as to why the Katrina delays took place - nothing to do with Bush. And I don’t know what you’re having a go at Verity for. Since when is someone whose stupid not stupid just because there’s an emergency on? I think you’re just trying to detract from getting egg all over your face (again).

Thank you, too, Saturn, you've done me a favour. I knew israel was capable of being misleading but I never knew now to what depths israel would go to. And it's all done with such shamelessness as well - breaking into capital letters to show how right he/she is. It's just astonishing you show such pride in being so inaccurate, israel.

Sarah

ISRAEL, you’re just one of those people who is determined to demonise Bush.

You complain about him being “the man who ignored the 6th Aug 2001 security memo”. That’s the memo of which CNN said:

"Much of the intelligence was uncorroborated, and nothing in the memo points directly to the September 11 attacks.”

And what do you say once they acted on the intelligence on Iraq? They’re wrong then, too. They can’t win, can they? Even when the US did impose tight airport security all they got was criticised for it, especially by British appeasers.

President Bush’s job after 9/11 was to do everything - everything - to protect the American people. He did make mistakes, as all politicians, do but he is not the inhuman person you make him out to be.

Failure to prevent another homeland attack over the course of the rest of his presidency could have resulted in anarchy. Look at what has happened in India. They have had terror upon terror over there (yes, mainly unreported by a Bush-hating, jihadist-excusing mainstream media) and now the public are up in arms. They’re fed up to the back teeth with being on the backfoot and grovelling.

They took to the streets until officials resigned. That is because it the first job of the state is to protect its citizens. Not worry about what tomorrow’s rotten Guardian leader is going to say. Would that we had seen similar scenes in Britain in the week after 7/7 over the pathetic performance of our terrorist-grovelling government.

Oh no, all we got was an enormous march to support mass-murdering Saddam Hussein. Churchill must be spinning in his grave. It’s no wonder so many school kids don’t even know who he is if all their parents can get excited about is marching on behalf of Saddam Hussein.

As for moaning about a 20-something being put in charge of ‘global warming’. What’s wrong with that? ‘Global warming’ does not exist. Ask David Bellamy. He’ll tell you. Global warming is as real as SpongeBob SquarePants.

Joanne Greco

Great article Ms. Phillips! You brought up a lot of points that many of us Americans feel about Obama. This whole house meeting thing has a very cult like feel to it. It's a shame but there are very weak minded people who get suckered into this. Count me out!

Israel

Sarah:

Bush's POLITICAL DECISIONS demonise him in peoples eyes, not me listing what he has done.

If you think that it is okay for the government to ignore it's own laws and spy on people, ignore international law and torture people, deny it's own people Habeas Corpus where you can pick up anyone off the street and detain them without trial indefinately, fill your government's law department with low grade political flunkies to pursue opponents, expose your own undercover agents in political payback, try to ignore your countries divisions of church and state for political gain, and making sure that you political supporters make as much cassh out of the country as possible, then yes, bush was a great president. Many, many more people in the US don't think so. Many people around the world who used to look up to the US don't think so. The US used to stand for something better than what the man who left the G8 summit with the words "goodbye from the world's biggest polluter". Heck, even Sarkozy manageed to use him as a puchline to reign in Putin!!

On Nagin, you and l can agree that he was (and still is) a self serving prat of a man who shouldn't be in charge of a burger bar. What he was saying is that it took General Honore to come down and get things done days later and he did, but here's the thing:

None of you who are slamming me have mentioned the number of times bush, chertoff, Scott McClellen, rice and others used the excuse that "no one could have predicted the levees breaking". This wasn't said once it was repeated for days.

None of you have mentioned the fact that FEMA director Brown was too busy eating his dinner to get up and make a call to allow relief supplies to get into the city (www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_6929.cfm). I say, and will continue to say that bush left people to die because he chose a political flunky to head what should have been after 9/11 one of the most important positions in the American government. What was Brown's resume before he was head of FEMA? He was the head of the US/Arabian Horse Trade Association. Putting a mid twenties a 2003 journalism student of Texas A&M in at NASA to censure noted scientists because he agrees with your views on global warming is one thing, putting in a man with no experience, knowledge or history in emergancy response into that role reckless, stupid, inept cronyism that will never be forgotten. People here love to demonise Clinton in the way they say that l am demonising Bush but can any here say that he would have done the same? My god, he would have been down there the next day making sure things were going right, and that is what he always did when hurricanes happened. Even now, EVEN NOW, three years after Katrina and what happened there has anything changed with FEMA? You do know that there was a media shutdown on reporting on Hurricane Ike don't you? That up till Novemeber 3rd local media was still denied access to island communities? That FEMA releif still ahsn't reached there? That there is a 30 mile long trail of destruction with the reamins of peoples property strewn anound the place? Three years later all those mistakes, all those chances to rectify, all those lessons supposedly learnt and these people are STILL useless.

My views are not popular here (stating the obvious) but i'll be damned if l change them on a man who will be regarded (whatever the spin he and his new spin department in the White House are trying their damned hardest to rewrite history right now) as the Worst. President. Ever.

Conservative Cabbie

"People here love to demonise Clinton in the way they say that l am demonising Bush but can any here say that he would have done the same?"

Two things Israel. firstly, I haven't seen anyone here demonise Clinton to the degree your laying ito Bush. Secondly, I should only need to say Marc Rich as an illustration of Clinton's venality.

Yous express surprise that I use Bob Geldof as a plus for Bush saying " wonder how many on this site have had a good thing to say about HIM over the years." Isn't that the point. The fact that someone like HIM praises Bush demonstrates what impressive work Bush has done in Africa. You criticise conservative compassion, you're not displaying much compassion yourself when you fail to give credit for his work in Africa. Aren't Africans with AIDS important to you.

As for worst President ever, what a ridiculous statement! so we read NRO, you're reading too much Michael Moore and The Guardian. How many Presidents have taken two totalitarian states into democracy. Or don't you feel compassion for the new found electorates of those countries too. It seems you're not a compassionate person either.

BTW, my vote for worst President ever; Woodrow Wilson or Andrew Johnson.

Barry H

You’re the biggest spinner of all, israel, so what are you banging on about?

You write things like:

“LEFT A CITY OF PEOPLE TO DROWN FOR FIVE DAYS WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING.”

But Bush plainly was doing something. It is just pure, spiteful spin on your part to say that he was not. All this and you dare to talk of people “trying their damned hardest to rewrite history”. And when you get shown up for what you are you start trying to smear other people such as Mayor Nagin.

You say this to someone else here of Mayor Nagin: “you and l can agree that he was (and still is) a self serving prat of a man who shouldn't be in charge of a burger bar”.

Mayor Nagin was trying to save the people and the Democrat governor was trying to stop him. What’s that got to do with your spiteful opinion of him? It certainly goes nowhere near to proving you charge that Bush:

“LEFT A CITY OF PEOPLE TO DROWN FOR FIVE DAYS WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING.”

There is simply no truth in this whatsoever.

It’s just a load of tripe. The sanctimony goes on and on and ends up with some rubbish about Bill Clinton:

“My god, he would have been down there the next day making sure things were going right” - not if that Democrat governor was blocking him the way she blocked Bush he wouldn’t.

Israel

Cabbie:

Bush's work in Africa is commendable and is worth praising, and probably would have been even better but for the "Faith Based" provisions attached to it. The thing is when you mentioned it you said, "I'd say that that's a legacy to be proud of.", as if eveyone is just going to forget everything else done in the last eight years!!! IT DOESN'T WASH.

Secondly you bring up Marc Rich. My god, you think that Marc Rich is a balance for Duke Cunningham, Jack Abramoff, "Scooter" Libby, Tom Delay, Ted Stevens, Claude Allen, Ken Lay, Bob Ney, Kyle "Dusty" Foggio and the myriad of others which would take to long to list here?

Do you think that the stunt that Pittsburgh US Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan is planning to pull will be an equivalence to the 2006 firings of nine US attorneys which led to Alberto Gonzales resignation?

The still sectarian fractured Iraq (why are those areas under Sharia law which we were supposed to get rid of still there do you wonder?) and the still Taliban infected Afganistan (you do remember that we are sending more troops there, right?) may be roaring successes to you but the still daily car bombings which no longer get the press of three years ago and is why there is still violence (in a country which we never should have invaded in the first place, but are now too embarrassed to admit will be controlled by Moktada al Sadr before too long) do make me sad for the people. I'm just annoyed at the idiots over here that helped enable it, that's all.

BTW Andrew Jackson?!?!?!?

The dude was a bad-a**!!!

Fought a duel and had to live the rest of his life with the bullet in him as it was too close to his heart to remove!!

Now if you said Herbert Hoover................

Israel

Barry H:

“My god, he would have been down there the next day making sure things were going right” - not if that Democrat governor was blocking him the way she blocked Bush he wouldn’t.

So let me get this straight. The Worst. President. Ever. george w bush, the man who called himself "The Decider" who spent years ignoring not just democrats in the US but people around the world who disagreed with him stayed away from Louisiana because of the Democratic Governor? You should email that in to Karl Rove and Karen Hughes at the White House, who are at this moment trying to rewrite history to scrub up his poor profile and legacy. I don't think that even they have come at Katrina from that angle.

Cabbie:

Another couple of possibilties for worst president: Lloyd Bridges in "Hot Shots: Part Deux" or Jack Nicholson in "Mars Attacks"?

Verity

I can't be bothered responding to a bigot like Israel any further. All his posts in The Speccie are one long self-righteous shriek of hatred for the right. You can't argue with bigots and the mentally iffy.

Let me just add, to the Katrina fringe rain saga, the top brass sent down a three-star general - General Honoré - himself from New Orleans. He knew how to get everyone primed for action. On one of the high freeway overpasses, he stopped the convoy, jumped out of his jeep and started the rescue operation over his mobile phone. It was great tv. Just too neat for words.

He knew how to get those people, the lazy ones who stayed behind watching TV and waiting for the gubmint to "do something" to MOVE. He also knew how to deal with the lefty media. He had an informal chat with three or four of them and he set the guidelines: I'll only take questions about this particular operation. An idiot woman from CNN immediately asked him about something with no connection to it and he said, "See, your trouble is, you've been drinking too much stupid." Her empty little face fell. He was canny enough to soften it immediately, by saying along the lines of, "Now, I apologise, but I told you what I'd take questions on." But the insult had gone in. Tee hee.

Gavin Something from the Beeb was poling a flat-bottomed boat alone the streets, dressed up in a poncy little safari shirt and a twinky little solar topée, which was hysterical because people were walking past him with water up to their knees. He had was just elaborating pettishly (he was from the Matt Frei school of TV reportage) that the government was doing nothing when he kept having to raise his voice to be heard over the TWO helicopters overhead winching people up. It was a great TV moment and lol funny.

(BTW, the Beeb also had someone reporting on Katrina - you are not going to believe this - from his air-conditioned condo in Los Angeles. You couldn't make it up. Your licence fee at work.)

They should put General Honoré in charge of fighting terrorism. He is a direct thinker.

Conservative Cabbie

Israel

Andrew JOHNSON, not Jackson. You know, only one of two Presidents to be impeached along with your friend Bill Clinton. I agree Hoover is in the running.

On Iraq and Afghanistan, I don't know how much you know about war Israel, but you can't just click your fingers and expect everything to be done with. Sometimes these things take time and certainly, in Iraq, things are definitely improving.

On Scooter Libby vs Marc Rich. One committed perjury, one, tax evasion. Both bad. The difference is that one did a runner and then gave money to a President for his library and funded the President's wife's run for the senate. The other one didn't.

I found this quote from wikipedia interesting; "Libby is the highest-ranking White House official convicted in a government scandal since Henry Cisneros, Secretary of Housing and Urban Development under CLINTON plead guilty to one count of lying to the FBI". So under Bush, it was a dodgy staffer, under Clinton, it was a dodgy cabinet member. I think that wins me a point!

israel

cabbie: On Rich you get the point, on numbers of convicted l get the game.

Verity:

you must be looking in a mirror to see someone shrieking. Just change the words "left" to "right" and you describe yourself. i suppose in school days it would have been a case of "i'm rubber, you're glue" but in your case l really don't care.

Cabbie: Got to work now mate, interact with you on another post.

Conservative Cabbie

Good old corrupt Illinois Democratic politics. Governor Blagojevich has been arrested for corruption relating to Obama's resigned senate seat. As the Chicago Tribune quotes, "They allege that Blagojevich put a 'for sale' sign on the naming of a United States senator". I wonder if Obama will get embroiled in it. God, I hope not, that means we'll have four years of Joe Biden - only five years of Gordon Brown is worse than that!

PS - only kidding about Obama being embroiled, I'm sure he's not involved.

Barackobama

Tory Taxidriver.
Bush's presidency was overshadowed by Iraq. Justifiable as the 2003 invasion was and as beneficial as I hope it may ultimately prove, congress wouldn't have voted for it if there hadn't been incontrovertible evidence that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that were almost ready for use. Bush now says that intelligence was false. If what he admits now had been known in 2002 and 2003, there would have been no invasion of Iraq because Republicans in congress wouldn't have voted to spend trillions of dollars and sacrifice thousands of young lives solely because the president didn't like Saddam's regime.
But false WMD intelligence, which may have been planted by America's enemies, wasn't Bush's fault. People should stop blaming him for being failed by the US' rubbishy intelligence system. It is probably the most thoroughly infiltrated and consistently ineffective spy network in history (failed to stop the assassination of three presidents; failed to spot Pearl Harbour was coming; backed Tito and Ho Chi Minh instead of their opponents; failed to recognise Stalin was a monster; failed to warn that China would enter the Korean War; failed to spot Saddam planned to invade Kuwait; failed to warn about 9/11: the list is endless). Shouldn't it simply be closed down? It would save taxpayers in the US billions (trillions if you count the cost of their many errors).

An American

Its interesting and informative reading all the poster's responses to Israel.

Compare what happened in Mississippi compared to New Orleans.

The hardest hit area from Katrina was the Mississippi Gulf Coast. There were large areas with towns literally wiped away.

Yet, the Republican Governor did a good job of informing his Miss. people to evacuate with resulting low mortality. These residents have come back to rebuild unlike a majority of New Orleanians.

The Democratic Gov. and Mayor Nagle did an atrocious job of protecting their residents, who by the way did have a way out of the city. There were tens of thousands of their cars still parked in their driveways rotting away afterward.

Many of the people from New Orleans used poor judgement. They thought it would be fun to go to the superdome and have free food and drinks...you know, take your comfy pillow and blanket...no food or water, that will be taken care of...'Let's have us a free party' while the storm passed over.

And these same people are still...to this very day...complaining... after billions have been spent to help them.

The truth is that there are some people you will never be able to help because they are unwilling to help themselves.

Houston, Tex. is paying for their goodwill. Their crime rate has more than doubled since helping and giving homes to all of these 'poor' New Orleanians.

I think all of you are wasting your time with Israel. He kind of reminds me of some of these New Orleanians...he is a lost cause...he is so hysterically, stridently, left-leaning...that I doubt he can walk upright or for that matter help himself.

Jackie

israel, you say that Bill Clinton would have been "making sure things were going right" - no, you can't do that without the governor's consent.

The important thing about Katrina was that something was done.

You allege over and over that George Bush did nothing when quite the reverse is true. The thing that stopped Bush trying to help was the obstructive actions of the Democratic governor.

Yes, Cabbie, I've just seen that story. Looks as if the political cesspit of Chicago politics is at it again. And this is the vipers' nest from which the US now has a president.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/3690546/Illinois-governor-arrested-on-suspicion-of-trying-to-sell-Barack-Obama-senate-seat.html

Tom Cat

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if someone is trying to sell Obama's senate seat. How else are they going to raise the bail bond money for Tony Rezko?

I mean, it just wouldn't do to have St Barack paying the bail bond for a fraudster who gave him his Mandelsonian mortgage.

Conservative Cabbie

Barackobama

I am no great fan of George Bush as a President although he strikes me as the type of person who would make a good friend. I just believe he isn't the disaster that the left make out and that in the long term, his legacy will be a lot stronger than it currently appears. As for the Intelligence services, over the course of sixty years, they're not going to get everything right and we are more likely to hear of their failures rather than their successes. It would be wrong to dismiss them as a complete failure.

BTW, I'm a conservative, not a Tory but enjoyed your little switcheroo, it's alliterative that way too.

Verity

Many British posters don't understand that a governor is not a kind of understudy to a president. They're not an executive vice president who "reports" to the president. They are the chief executives of their state, which is an independent entity. I'm sure, in the event of insurrection or something, the president could over rule them - I don't know. But do not believe the president can send armed forces into a state against the will of a governor. Someone will correct me if I am wrong.

I have neighbours from Mississippi whose house was swept away so dramatically that when they returned after Katrina had died out, all that was left was the concrete slab and their refrigerator. Everything else had been scattered to the four winds. The whole block was the same. Just a street of concrete slabs and some odd bits of furniture or kitchen appliances.

But the Republican governor had made sensible provision for shelter and he had the federal insurance people in immediately, to start processing claims. Of course, he had asked President Bush for troops, and the troops were on site and clearing the streets and rescusing people as soon as the storm died out. And that is the state in which Katrina actually touched down. NO only got the fringe which, as I know from experience, is only very heavy rains and high winds for a day or two as the eye of the hurricane passes through. Badly flooded streets and telephone and electricity sometimes, but not always, affected. But by and large, a tropical storm is not life-threatening. It was those levées that poured the gigantic Lake Ponchartrain through the city.

The army brass sent the very best general to clear up the mess and to rescue those who had stayed behind watching TV - once they had permission to come in. To say he is a take-charge kind of guy is to understate the case.

An American

Chicago and Illinios is a political cesspool. There are many corrupt state goverments, but Ill. takes the blue ribbon for their abundance of crooks.

Illinois politicans would all be very comfortable and do very well under hipocrits Nancy and Harry's tutelage.

Machiaveilian Emanuel is an Illinios politician and is 'The Messiah's' best bud. He's now the second most powerful person in the US.

You cannot be a sucessful politican in Ill. and be honest. It takes a special kind of subhuman. You need to be ambitious and corrupt to the core.

Obama is not the innocent that he and our liberal media professes and protects. He's been embroiled in shady deals...his generous buddy, Chicago slum landlord Rezko...for example.

I use to be sooo naive and believe that most people ran for office to protect and help my country. It's truly amazing how corrupt the majority of all of our politicians are...both Democrats and Republicans. Some of them were wealthy when they entered politics but most became mega rich afterward...odd.

I could have volunteered for our Senator in the Capitol but chose not too...I just couldn't stand being around all those slimy SOBs.

Frank P

Tom Cat

A very prescient remark. You wouldn't be Patrick Fitzgerald by any chance would you?

Bwaahahahahahah!

I'm surprised they didn't put the senate seat on EBay. That's Chicago for you!

One wonders just how much the boys behind Obama paid for it last time. Any idea Tom Cat?

Of course Obama doesn't know anything about all this does he? Not the sainted Obama. How could you think such a thing?

Bwaaahahahahaha! (as Dan Collins would exclaim).

phil

what a load of codswallop the only sense I saw here was from the fragrant one .otherwise just a game of tit for tat
"
"You can't argue with bigots and the mentally iffy"------oh boy straight from the mouth of babes!!! --I have been crying laughing -it is her who wants to repatriate immigrants with a pay off or am I mistaken ?.or is it an extract from Enoch,s "rivers of blood "speech that fell out of the sky and attached itself to poor innocent verity

-Are you all so callous that not one of you can be bothered to read what she wrote and object -if you are so right wing, what is the point to anyone here who has any care for human beings bothering to say anything -I HOPE AT LEAST SOMEBODY WILL FEEL A SENSE OF SHAME !! one does not need to be a left winger to have compassion for the less able ,wake up before your souls pack in altogether .
I know I waste my time but at least I SLEEP AT NIGHT

Conservative Cabbie

Boy am I frustrated with Obama right now. I was all ready to be fully supportive of him over this Blagojevich issue. I am sure that Obama has no culpability in the attempted sale of his former senate seat. In fact, Blagojevich said that all he was offered by the Obama team for considering Obama's choice was "appreciation". Great, he's acted honourably, all well and good. And yet...

Consider Obama's statement - "I had no contact with the governor or his office so I was not aware of what was happening."

Now consider his chief advisor's, David Axelrod, statement from Nov 23rd- "I KNOW HE HAS TALKED TO THE GOVERNOR and there are a whole range of names many of which have surfaced, and I think he has a fondness for a lot of them."

Is Obama just a pathological liar? If he has nothing to hide which I was (and probably still am) sure, why is he lying? The one time I was ready to give him my unqualified support and he goes and let's me down. Very annoying!

Sorry about the rant.

An American

Conservative Cabbie,

You are a very astute fellow but sometimes a little too trusting.

Obama is part and parcel of this corrupt Chicago, Illinois political machine. Look at where he is today!

He's the scum that's boiled up to the top... which should tell you something.

Obama became a Senator by ridding his opponents by finding a way of opening up their messy divorce papers to the press. What a very noble way of obtaining a Senate seat.

Of course Obama was talking to the Governor. He wants someone that he alone selects for the Senate that will toe the line and be ingratiated to him.

Thanks for coming around...I knew you would.

Sorry about the earlier rant...but I just can't stand dishonesty in people...especially politicians who people send money to for their campaigns and get out the vote for them. It infuriates me.

Phil, Good man...You must get off the Verity track. I fear for your health. She's not going away.

Frank P

Oh my word, Con Cabbie! You should have stayed in the Job a little longer.

Obama is slime ball from the cesspool that was once the Onion Field. It's the Combination! The Unholy Alliance of bent politicians, black supremacists, bent unions, the Italian Mafia, bent Police, Property developers and now, to add to the toxic mix, the counter culture warriors like Ayers et alia who have added to the sulphurous brew and conjured up a new President of their choice. He won't be able to satisfy all his 'backers' because they have divers objectives. Remember what happened to the Kennedys when they crossed the Chicago Mob? Read back to the very beginning of Melanie's posts and the commentary since she joined in the fray. Obama is a shill. What more do you need to know? What a wonderful name for the Governor: Blagovitch!

If a fiction writer drummed up that name for the Governor in a political corruption thriller he would be ridiculed for silliness. But the Governor is a hoodlum and he speaks and looks the part. What has to happen before the scales fall off your eyes, guys - a signed confession from The One? Melanie laid it all out for you; it's there in Chapter and Verse. She has great sources. She was ahead of the game by three months.

The only problem one can see with this time bomb of a scandal is that Pat Fitzgerald is a politician too, as well as a Fed Prosecutor. He might just fancy the Gubernatorial accolade for himself. This all springs from the Tony Resko aka Rezko enquiry (remember – Obambi’s friend) and it will run and run. I warned you at the outset that eruptions were due. Trouble is the Fed now has a vested interest in keeping Obambi's name out of it. Can you imagine the confusion if he gets impeached before he's inaugurated? On top of the collapse of capitalism, a scandal of that magnitude around the POTUS elect would be the nail in the coffin of Western civilisation. At the moment it won't need a coffin, it will indeed be a bonfire of the vanities. Sit back and watch the sad, sad fun folks; as for the people that voted for Obama, I warned you to be careful what you wished for. Now live with it. Trouble is the rest of us will be consumed in the firestorm. How the Mullahs must be enjoying this, as their plan unfolds according to their desires. Anyone fancy a short break to Athens? Con Cabbie you're hired! How much would you charge for the return journey?

barackobama

ConCab. 627pm
Bush was better than most people think, but there's no chance of the attacks stopping so long as he is blamed, rather than the intelligence services, for ordering the 2003 war which would have been impossible without incontrovertible evidence that Iraq had WMD. He now says this evidence was false. How intelligence that was totally wrong was served up to the president as totally right has never been explained. My guess is that the Russians concocted it to suck the US into war in the Middle East in the way the US sucked Moscow into Afghanistan. It also sent the oil price up, to the delight of Putin (as well as Chavez and Khamenei). The biggest gainer by every measure is Iran, which is why it's not impossible Iranian double agents were behind it. Remember, the Persians invented checkers and aren't as dumb as Ahmadinejad makes them look. And any detached survey of the history of the CIA and other US "intelligence services" suggests that infiltration by the Russians (and even the Iranians) is not just possible. It's a certainy.

Verity

Frank P - Senate seat on eBay! Excellent thought!

Given Chicago, what difference would it make? But what a great idea! Rotten buroughs again. What's new?

Indeed, I throw this out for consideration, and I am not the first to have done so, but perhaps people who have made a fortune in the real word should be able to buy a constituency. In fact, I could warm to this.

You look at a sleazebag like Gordon Brown, who has almost inexplicably become the Prime Minister of Great Britain by buying his way in through taxpayer payouts ... and one thinks, why is this desirable? Why not allow someone who has fought in the real world to buy a constituency? Wouldn't this be better than sleazies like Edward Heath? Blair and the Manatee? Gordon Brown? Jacqui Wossname? Ed Ballshit?

Why not that feller who owns 'The Sunday Sport' who made his own sleazy fortune over Peter Mandelson who got his money off the taxpayers who didn't have a choice. I can't stand Richard Branson, but rather him, who knows how to operate in the real world, than Ed Balls, who's never done a day's work, never mind created a fortune, for God's sake! Or aspirant (failed) rock star Tony Blair, who had never done anything in his entire life before slithering under the door of No 10. Let Alan Sugar buy his own constituency. Why not?

The current Parliament should be cut, now that they have nothing to do given that the EUSSR rules, by a half.

The remaining half could be purchasers of seats. They have a better grasp of the real world than slag heaps like Gordon Brown and Jack Straw and Ed Balls and his ghastly wife, and would serve Britain better.

Conservative Cabbie

So David Axelrod is being thrown under the bus. How very predictable. Obama's usual pattern in responding to a potential scandal. Deny all knowledge and then do the dirty on a close friend and ally. I'm glad I'm not a friend of Obama's, you'd be constantly checking for that knife in your back.

How many corruptocrats does it take before the cultists realise that you can't associate yourself with so many dodgy characters and remain as pure as the driven snow yourself.

phil

An American thanks for your concern:)-you may well not know who Enoch Powell was in the 60,s ,he was a cabinet minister expected to attain the highest office until he made his "rivers of blood" speech-HE WAS DISMISSED BY THE PRIME MINISTER AND MADE AN OUTCAST BY THE BRITISH PEOPLE -THE SENTIMENTS MADE BY YOUR FRIEND VERITY WERE JUST THOSE EXPRESSED BY HIM ,NOT ONE OF YOU HAS MANAGED TO REPRIMAND HER FOR HER DISGUSTING OUTBURST - so I will stick with the company of normal Brits if you don't mind -we are normally polite ,not racist ,and pretty well balanced as a whole -at times here I feel as if I am in a cesspool of right wing bigots applauding one another .

I have never had any doubt that she will not go away .not so long as you and your friends keep egging on her excesses .no doubt for your amusement -none of you would dare to make those comments in public or in your golf club-you would be thrown out .

Thankfully we have free speech here so she can continue and so will I expose her whenever she does it .no doubt she will enjoy your applause and slither away from the disgust that I still know many feel for her -they just do not come here anymore -how sad !

Israel

barackobama:

Dick Cheney and l think either Richard Perle or Paul Wolfowitz set up the Office of Special Plans and then decamped to Langley where they cherry picked through all the intellegence information there. Prominence was given to any intellegence that would show Iraq as a danger while those that disagreed with the premise were given short thrift. The blame was left squarely at the feet of the intellegence service while another department was supplying the bullets. Where do you think the information from "Curveball" (who the CIA called an unreliable drunk and a liar), Chalibi and the Niger falsehoods came from?

barackobama

Israel. Cheney wouldn't subvert his own country by falsifying intelligence. What makes sense is that he distrusted the CIA, comprehensively infiltrated by everyone, and other federal intelligence agencies so he developed his own sources. Unhappily, this made it much easier for the Russians, with or without Iranian help, to fool the the White House into believing there was imminent Iraqi WMD danger, the first big lie of the 21st century and perhaps the most costly ever. Getting rid of Saddam was great, nevertheless, and long overdue. It's a pity that the main winners were Moscow and Tehran.