Shameful and shocking

RF1

Problem is, the "settlers" are villified and demonised by the Israeli press and ditto for the government (note the statements made by Barak, Livni et al), irrespective of their actions. Not to mention getting short changed by the elitist and biased judiciary and cheated by successive politicians (e.g. Sharon and i.e. the democracy you mentioned)

Palestinians however are treated with kid gloves, monetary hand outs etc, despite far worse behaviour.

Consequently, the settlers are adopting the arab's tactics in order to achieve their aims. Indeed other interest groups have been effective in adopting some of these tactics in the past.

It's a logical, rational and obvious outcome to the moral relativism of post-zionism.

Decry it all you want - but these people see their lives as being at stake and they see tactics that they abhor working. In the case of settlers, as opposed to the palestinians, it really is a life and death struggle.

If only they could pass themselves off as "ethnic", they might not get your support but it would be a welcome change to the "free tibet" signs we've seen the left running around with for 20 years.

Israel

RF1:

"If only they could pass themselves off as "ethnic", they might not get your support but it would be a welcome change to the "free tibet" signs we've seen the left running around with for 20 years."

I'm sorry, but what connection is there between the settlers and those in Tibet? Unless you are saying that the Palestinians have the same power over the Israelis as the Chinese have over the Tibetian people?

Tony

In other words, the Jews reacted like Palestinians and yet still get bad press!
They can't win, the poor people!

Tony

In other words, the Jews reacted in the same violent manner as the Palestinians, but still end up getting the bad press!
Poor people, they just can't win with the world's leftist media.

phil

Melanie I am so happy that you are back on a subject of which you are masterful.Is it because it is one with which we can agree ? Maybe .!
I have always felt that the worst harm caused to us as Jewish people is caused by those who call themselves Jews and behave in the most ungodly manner ,in fact these fanatical settlers -they do not represent me !!

I am not religious in an orthodox way but I was influenced by some wonderful examples of Jewish morality and compassion ,they would turn in their graves to witness what their ideal of a land meant to be "a light unto nations " has been turned into -thankfully only in small parts -by these selfcentred pretenders to Judaism .If they think God will receive them as Jews when they have desecrated so much that is holy to our ideals they will be sadly mistaken -

Much as I am angry at what passes for Arab morality by those who demean their own religion ,I still believe in both peace and justice for our Muslim cousins,those that behave in the same moral manner that I would demand from my co-religionists .

In particular I object vehemently to those that wish to live by the rule of anarchy in Israel -That land is a democracy and Jewish people round the world are proud to support its ideals .however hard they are becoming to uphold .

gastro george

The quote from Burg is much more interesting if you replace "settlements" with "villages", "Arabs" with "Israelis" and "settlers" and "Israeli" with "Palestinians".

Si, N

'Whether or not they like it, the settlers along with everyone else have to live within the law'

'As readers of this blog know, I believe the settlements are not illegal'.

Yes quite, Melanie Phillips and her supporters believe some peculiar things - one thing is certain though, the settlements are illegal under international law.

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention (1949) states: 'The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies'.

How then can the settlers possibly live within the law?

David Lindsay

The question is now not only being asked, but demanding most urgently to be answered: just what sort of country is Israel? It is quite clear that, if she gives the wrong answer, then she will rightly (even if they will never be able to say the words in quite this order) forfeit the support even of those who have hitherto been her most ardent devotees.

An American

Melanie,
Being an American and a non-Jew, I can only comment on what appears on the surface...I know that there are other circumstances involved here...that, of course, is an understatement.

I believe that the recent events in Hebron are hurting Israel and its image. These Jewish settlers appear to be almost as unreasonable as the portion of Palestinans that continue to terrorize innocent Israeli citizens.

Obama's advisors are making noises about Israel that don't bode well for that country when it comes to the US's support. It's time for some of the trouble-making settlers to start behaving themselves.

These settlers aren't helping Israel's dire situation, they are making it worse, unless they too want Armageddon.

phil

David Lindsay-do you speak as a supporter or one who would like to put down the Israelis -perhaps I am wrong but I dont remember kind words before -maybe mistaken identity -if so sorry .

we have all heard of ethelred the unready well here we have an unwelcome return, at least to me, of SIN THE UNSTABLE who cannot stay away even when Jewish people are criticising a section of Israeli society .

'-

ahad ha'amoratsim

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention (1949) states: 'The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies'.

True, David Lindsay, but Israel has not done so. Article 49 prohibits the forcible transfer of the occupying country's population into occupied territory. It does not prohibit permitting them to buy land in the territory and live there. And as Melanie has poitned out, the West Bank, having never been part of a sovereign nation but rather having been part of the Mandate and before that part of the Turkish empire, does not fall within the Conventin's definition of occupied territory.

ahad ha'amoratsim

David Lindsay, as has been pointed out many times before, the West Bank, never having been part of a sovereign country, does not meet Article 49's definition of occupied territory, and even if it did, Article 49 prohibits forcible trasnfers of population. It does not prohibit allowing one's population to buy land from a willing seller, and willingly live on that land.

Maven

"Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention (1949) states: 'The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies'" But Israel IS NOT an "Occupying Power" it is a liberator of land illegally annexed by Jordan in defiance of The Mandate For Palestine which states that no foreign power shall exercise control over Palestine. In 1967 Israel repelled the Jordanians who settled with a peace deal. Hence both Jews and Arabs now live in the West Bank as designated by The Mandate. You cannot "illegally occupy" what you have been given legal title to - unless you now call Israel a foreign country exercising control over Palestine. Even if you aregue that then Jews STILL have equal rights of settlement in West Bank

ahad ha'amoratsim

Sorry, my post should have been addressed to Si,N, not to David.

Melanie, am I correct that among the laws of Jordan that the PA adopted wholesale for the West Bank is the law that made it a capital offence to sell land to a Jew? Note that one of the claims by the seller is that the sale was fraudulent because he did not know the buyer was a Jew. Regardless of the law, is there any doubt that the seller's neighbors would insure his early demise if he admitted to the sale? The Israeli Supreme Court unfortunately endorsed the seller's theory.

The handful of Jews who are vandalizing houses and gravestones and challenging the authority of the democratic state are not behaiving as Jews are supposed to behave. (This of course assumes that the reports are accurate. For now I assume that they are.) If they want to defy Israel's laws, let them get themselves appointed to the Israeli Supreme Court.

Ben

God gave the land to Abraham and his descendants and his two sons were Isaac and Ishmael.

R. Green

Melanie,
I'm an Israeli and an avid supporter of Jewish presence in Hebron, the cradle of the Jewish people. I was just as appalled as you were by the recent scenes of violence and vandalism on behalf of Jews there.
However, the evacuation has left many Israelis angry for other reasons. They are asking themselves whether the evacuation was necessary. Why didn’t the authorities wait for a court ruling on the legality of the purchase? The Supreme Court decision did n-o-t order the evacuation, it only said the authorities are permitted to carry it out.
The Israeli army's evacuation of the house was a well planned, swift and effective operation. Many Israelis are wondering when they are going to see the army display such a tour de force of determination, planning, timing, and –well, force, directed against Hamas, which has been firing around 300 rockets per month on Israeli towns and villages.

trumpeldor

Sorry Melanie,for the first time ,I will not follow you!

Jews have all legal rights concerning bet ha shalom

Israel supreme court had no power to intervene into an ownership dispute
Supreme court must care for state legal principles given the lack of Israeli Constitution
The leftist judges preferred to uphold their leftist agenda
Too bad for them because today;they lost the few credit they had left among many Israelis
The same can be said over E Barak whose name will disappear from history very soon !
Some Israelis behaved badly?
Sure but fortunately no one was killed or hurt in the process!
As R Green said, Hebron is our cradle and no one will dictate us what to do there !

ahad ha'amoratsim

"God gave the land to Abraham and his descendants and his two sons were Isaac and Ishmael."
Ben, if that is your source, then you must also know that according to the same source, G-d told Abraham that his descendants would be numbered through Isaac, to the exclusion of Ishmael.

Adam B.

Hey guys, Sin's back! How I've missed his charm ("cowardly barbarians" as he calls those who have a different world view), his wit (he came up with "Adumb", not bad!) and his humanity (repeated refusal to condemn the deliberate targeting and murder of civilians by Hamas and Hizbollah). Now he's spouting his usual rubbish about law, a conversation he has repeatedly lost on other threads, but hey, if you repeat a lie often enough, maybe peope will believe it, eh Sin?

RF1

To all those worried about Israel's image, what image exactly are you worried about? The image at the UN? The image at the EU? The image in Muslim countries?

I submit that the image you're worried about is being able to sell Israel to your friends in your personal cosy sheltered make-believe fantasy world.

Read:
Fake Democracy
by Kalman Libskind- Maariv newspaper December 5th 2008

And then think again about what kind of country Israel is and how it treats its citizens (i.e. Settlers) compared to how it treats belligerents (i.e. Arabs).

IT's so sad that one needs to point out who the belligerents are and who the citizens are. It really is a topsy turvy world.

Koestler

Adam B.
You mean like how you lost a conversation with someone (JW or someone) on another thread?
Wily Arabs Melanie? Charming.

phil

An American I would have thought the image would have been improved as the state has shown here that it will not tolerate the illegal behaviour of those settlers -what more could they do ? you have lunatics and hooligans just as every country has and you punish them -so does Israel .

phil

Koestler do you ever have anything to say that merits our attention ? we recognise your theme ,and you know? we dont give a damn -ok

Raymond Joseph Douglas

.As a christian who loves Israel and believes in her place in the purposes of God, I would say this. No one defends bad behaviour from anyone, but consider this. To force Israel out of land that belongs to God given israeli territory, would be to put the security of all Jews at risk.Then there is the collective trauma and fear amongst the jewish people from those who daily threaten their destruction.The jewish people in Hebron, and other parts of the West bank, are right on the frontline here, cut them a bit of slack eh!

Si, N

So when Melanie says, 'I have been following [events] with undiluted dismay and disgust' she finally acknowledges as truth that which all of those opposed to the appalling treatment of Palestinians have been saying for decades. Whilst there is clearly a considerable disconnect from the reality on the ground, Phillips is entirely correct when asserting: [t]his is by no means the first example of settler violence against local Arabs'. But it's by no means just settlers that cause trouble for Palestinians - here is a catalogue of some the violence/illegality inflicted on Palestinians by Israelis in the last 2 weeks.

Thursday, 20 November 2008

01:00, Tulkarm – IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested 2 Palestinian civilians

01:00, Shoufa village, southeast of Tulkarm - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and summoned Sami Ahmed 'Ouda, 43, and Farouq 'Abdul Rahman 'Ouda, 24, for interrogation

02:00, Tammoun village, southeast of Tubas - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested 2 Palestinian civilians

02:00, Qiffin village, north of Tulkarm – IOF opened fire at houses and shops - besieged a house belonging to Sami Mustafa Te'ma and forced its residents out - raided and searched the house - withdrew from the village later and no arrests were reported

07:00, Habla village, south of Qalqilya – IOF besieged a house belonging to the family of 'Aqab Mohammed Kharroub, who was arrested by IOF two weeks earlier. They forced the family out and searched the house. No arrests were reported.

Friday, 21 November 2008:

01:30, Nablus and the neighboring Balata refugee camp IOF raided and searched a number of houses, but no arrests were reported

01:30, Tallouza village, north of Nablus – IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported

04:00, Wadi al-Nassara, east of Hebron – IOF raided 4 houses belonging to Bassam al-Ja'bari, 'Abdul Mon'em Jaber, Munther Da'na and Ahmed Jaber, and handed military orders to the owners seizing the four houses for 4 days for "military purposes." IOF held the families on the first floor of each house and turned the roofs into military sites - According to eyewitnesses, the military orders restrict the movement of Palestinian civilians living in 50 houses located neat "Kiryat Arba" settlement, east of Hebron - IOF took this measure allegedly to allow Israeli settlers to celebrate the Jewish Ms. Sarah Day

11:00, dozens of Palestinian civilians from Jaba', al-Fandoqawmiya and Seilat al-
Zaher villages, south of Jenin, and Bazaria, Burqa and Deir Sharaft villages, northwest of Nablus, organized a peaceful demonstration towards the evacuated "Homesh" settlement. When the demonstrators arrived at the area, IOF troops fired rubber-coated metal bullet, sound bombs and tear gas canisters at them. Five demonstrators, including 2 children, were wounded:

1. Saddam Ragheb Shraida, 16, wounded by shrapnel from a sound bomb to the nose and a rubbercoated metal bullet to the shoulder;
2. 'Emad Shawkat Saif, 48, wounded by shrapnel from a sound bomb to the face;
3. Sami 'Abdul 'Aziz Daghals, 49, wounded by shrapnel to the left leg;
4. Dirar Mohammed Abu 'Omar, 46, wounded by shrapnel to the left hand; and
5. Mustafa Tayseer Salah, 16, wounded by shrapnel to the face.

Saturday, 22 November 2008:

19:30, Zabbouba village, west of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - 3 Palestinian civilians arrested while walking in the streets.

Sunday, 23 November 2008:

01:00, Za'tara village, southeast of Bethlehem - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested Mohammed Hassan Zawahra, 19.

Monday, 24 November 2008:

01:00, Bethlehem - IOF raided and searched a house belonging to the family of 'Ali Mousa Nawawra, 21, and arrested him.

Tuesday, 25 November 2008:

01:15, Jenin town and refugee camp – IOF patrolled in the streets And opened fire indiscriminately - neither casualties nor arrests were reported

02:00, Qalandya refugee camp, south of Ramallah - IOF erected a number of checkpoints in the streets and stopped, checked and held dozens of Palestinian civilians.
The then raided and searched a number of houses and damaged a number of them - arrested 7 Palestinian civilians, including a child.

Wednesday, 26 November 2008:

01:00, al-Rashaida village, east of Bethlehem - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested 2 Palestinian civilians

01:30, al-Kassara and Jabal Jouhar neighborhood in Hebron - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested Fayez Mohammed al-Rajabi, 25

02:30, Qalandya refugee camp, south of Ramallah - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested 10 Palestinian civilians

14:00, dozens of Palestinian civilians demonstrated at the western entrance of
Qalandya refugee camp, south of Ramallah, in protest at the arrest campaign waged by IOF against Palestinian civilians in the early morning - IOF opened fire at these civilians - Khairallah Adeeb al-Jamal, 17, from Beit Sourik village west of Ramallah, was seriously wounded by a gunshot to the chest.

Thursday, 27 November:

01:00, Tulkarm refugee camp - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested 'Omar 'Abdul Qader Nasrallah, 21

01:00, 'Izbat al-Jarad village, south of Tulkarm IOF raided an animal farm belonging to Ahmed Fu'ad Kharyoush, 24, and arrested him

01:30, Deir Abu Mash'al village, northwest of Ramallah - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested 3 Palestinian civilians

01:30, Kharbtha al-Mesbah village, west of Ramallah. They raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported.

01:45, Nablus and the neighbouring Balata refugee camp - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported

02:00, Yatta village, south of Hebron - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested Khalil 'Ali al-Nawaj'a, 36

02:00, Dura town, southwest of Hebron - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested Ahmed 'Adnan al-Shahateet, 20

02:00, Deir Samet village, west of Hebron - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and shops - no arrests were reported

02:15, Zawata village, west of Nablus - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested 'Abdul Rahim Jawad Abu 'Amsha, 23

02:15, 'Aqraba village, southeast of Nablus - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested 5 Palestinian civilians.

Friday, 28 November:

02:00, Jalqamous village, east of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported.

02:15, Um al-Tout village, northwest of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses -no arrests were reported

02:15, 'Aanin village, west of Jenin. - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported.

12:10, IOF troops positioned at the border between the Gaza Strip and Israel, east of Khan Yunis, fired 3 artillery shells at Palestinian agricultural areas in al-Farahin area in 'Abassan village

20:00, Rummana village, west of Jenin - IOF raided an internet café belonging to Sakher al-Ahmed - verified the identity cards of customers and searched the café - no arrests were reported.

Saturday, 29 November:

01:00, 'Azzoun village, east of Qalqilya - IOF raided and searched a house belonging to the family of Ja'far Sami 'Edwan, 22, and arrested him

01:30, 'Arraba village, southwest of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported.

01:30, Fahma village, southwest of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported.

02:00, Toura village, southwest of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested 'Omar Fa'thi Qabha, 21

02:00, Kufor Ra'ei village, southwest of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported

02:30, al-Jdaida village, southeast of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported

02:30, Sirris village, southeast of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported

02:30, Maithaloun village, southeast of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported

02:30, Sanour village, southeast of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported

03:00, al-Ram town, north of Jerusalem - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported
03:00, Tubas town - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported

03:00, al-Far'a refugee camp, south of Tubas - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported

03:30, al-Zahiriya village, south of Hebron - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported

03:30, 'Allar village, north of Tulkarm - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported.

Sunday, 30 November:

01:00, 'Aanin village, west of Jenin -IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested Fadi 'Awadh Mansour, 30

02:15, Beit Fourik village, east of Nablus -IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported

02:15, Norther 'Assira village, north of Nablus - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported.

08:30, IOF, accompanied by 3 bulldozers, moved nearly 300 meters into al-Farahin area in the east of 'Abassan village, east of Khan Yunis. They leveled grass that grew up in the area - such operations have become routine in the area.

14:00, an IOF undercover unit moved into 'Anabta village, east of Tulkarm. IOF troops stormed a car wash facility. Soon after, IOF military vehicles moved into the area. IOF arrested Khairi Mohammed Hannoun, 21.

14:00, Deir Abu Mash'al village, northwest of Ramallah - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested Nasser Hussein Zahran, 25.

Tuesday, 2 December:

01:45, Jenin town and refugee camp - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested Ahmed Mohammed Abu 'Amira, 23

01:45, Housan village, west of Bethlehem - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested Ibrahim Bassam al-'Aridi, 25.

02:15, Zabbouba village, west of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested Eyad Hassan Abu Zaytoun, 21

02:15, 'Aanin village, west of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported.

02:30, 'Arraba village, southwest of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported

02:30, Kufor Ra'ei village, southwest of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported

02:30, Sanour village, southeast of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses - no arrests were reported.

15:30, an IOF aircraft fired a missile at a number of Palestinian children who were sitting on the roadside near the pubic medical center in al-Shouka village, southeast of Rafah. Two children were killed:

1.'Omar Mousa Hammas, 15, hit by shrapnel throughout the body and he was difficult to identify as his body was badly burnt and his limbs were severed;
2. Ramzi Ibrahim al-Duhaini, 16, hit by shrapnel throughout the body.

Another two civilians were wounded:

1. Hani 'Awad Abu Suhaiban, 14, whose condition was described as critical;
2. Khaled Nasser al-Duhaini, 17, whose condition was described as serious.

Wednesday, 3 December:

01:30, 'Arraba village, southwest of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested 2 Palestinian civilians

01:30, Bourqin village, west of Jenin - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested Mohammed Khaled al-'Aassi, 23

02:00, al-'Azza refugee camp, north of Bethlehem -IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested 3 Palestinian civilians

02:30, 'Obaidiya village, east of Bethlehem - IOF raided and searched a number of houses and arrested Huthaifa S'oud Abu Sarhan, 25

In view of such unremitting harassment, murder and misery being inflicted upon the Arab population of the land – how misapplied then is Melanie Phillips' laughable assertion: ‘this is the very behaviour from which Israeli Jews suffer constantly at the hands of the Arabs’? Where is the evidence of this constant suffering? If such relentless misery existed for Jews as it does for Arabs, for sure Phillips would be clamouring to tell.

JJS

It is regrettable that there are sme Jews acting in a barbaric manner, but their actions cannot be taken as representative of all Jewish behaviour just as the behaviour of all Muslims cannot be assumed from the actions of the perpetrators of 9/11.

Koestler

phil - you sound like a school yard bully. Who are "our" and "we"? Actually I'm not sure I want to know. Perhaps you should devote some of your valuable time to telling Mr Raymond Joseph Douglas why he is wrong. Good post though phil!

ahad ha'amoratsim

Si,N, if the PA were living up (or even trying to live up)to the commitments it made at Oslo, none of the incidents you listed would have occurred. Odd that you find it to be an intolerable violation of human rights when Israel searches a bomb factory and arrests the terrorists, but not when an Arab stabs Jewish civilians, or a bunch of Arabs tortures a Jewish child to death.

Si, N

Pp: Israel 'is a democracy and Jewish people round the world are proud to support its ideals' - really?

Here's list of prominent Jews who most certainly will not support Israel in its current state:
Seymour Alexander
Ruth Appleton
Steve Arloff
Rica Bird
Jo Bird
Cllr Jonathan Bloch
Ilse Boas
Prof. Haim Bresheeth
Tanya Bronstein
Sheila Colman
Ruth Clark
Sylvia Cohen
Judith Cravitz
Mike Cushman
Angela Dale
Ivor Dembina
Dr. Linda Edmondson
Nancy Elan
Liz Elkind
Pia Feig
Colin Fine
Deborah Fink
Sylvia Finzi
Brian Fisher MBE
Frank Fisher
Bella Freud
Catherine Fried
Uri Fruchtmann
Stephen Fry
David Garfinkel
Carolyn Gelenter
Claire Glasman
Tony Greenstein
Heinz Grunewald
Michael Halpern
Abe Hayeem
Rosamine Hayeem
Anna Hellman
Amy Hordes
Joan Horrocks
Deborah Hyams
Selma James
Riva Joffe
Yael Oren Kahn
Michael Kalmanovitz
Paul Kaufman
Prof. Adah Kay
Yehudit Keshet
Prof. Eleonore Kofman
Rene Krayer
Stevie Krayer
Berry Kreel
Leah Levane
Les Levidow
Peter Levin
Louis Levy
Ros Levy
Prof. Yosefa Loshitzky
Catherine Lyons
Deborah Maccoby
Daniel Machover
Prof. Emeritus Moshe Machover
Miriam Margolyes OBE
Mike Marqusee
Laura Miller
Simon Natas
Hilda Meers
Martine Miel
Laura Miller
Arthur Neslen
Diana Neslen
Orna Neumann
Harold Pinter
Roland Rance
Frances Rivkin
Sheila Robin
Dr. Brian Robinson
Neil Rogall
Prof. Steven Rose
Mike Rosen
Prof. Jonathan Rosenhead
Leon Rosselson
Michael Sackin
Sabby Sagall
Ian Saville
Alexei Sayle
Anna Schuman
Sidney Schuman
Monika Schwartz
Amanda Sebestyen
Sam Semoff
Linda Shampan
Sybil Shine
Prof. Frances Stewart
Inbar Tamari
Ruth Tenne
Martin Toch
Tirza Waisel
Stanley Walinets
Martin White
Ruth Williams
Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi
Devra Wiseman
Gerry Wolff
Sherry Yanowitz.

JJS: 'It is regrettable that there are some Jews acting in a barbaric manner but their actions cannot be taken as representative of all Jewish behaviour' - here here. Pp, Tony, ahad ha'amoratsim, and trumpeldor be careful, you besmirch the name of Jews worldwide when you associate them with Israeli thugs.

JJS

Si - typical of the way you collect "evidence" -- you deliberately misquote and/or take things out of context and present them as if they are the truth. Thanks for exposing your dishonest methodology for all to see. As for your lists of lies above, be assured that anybody with even a rudimentary brain cell to their name will simply scroll on by knowing that you've manufactured them just as you distorted my post!

Adam B.

Koestler, you mean like pointless, empty comments such as yours? Why not actually contribute something? Grow up!

Adam B.

Sin, do you condemn suicide bombings against Israeli civilians?

Everyone, please note that Sin will never answer this question, and he has repeatedly refused to do so. The absence of an answer tells you everything you need to know about him, and his so-called concern for human rights. On endless threads he produces lists, I provided him with a long list of innocent Israelis murdered by Palestinians, to which he didn't respond. His tactic is to always attack, thereby negating the need to ever answer anything put to him. Until, he answers the above question, I suspect people will treat his comments adn motives with suspicion.

Sin will never understand that Arab genocidal hatred of Israel and the Jews predates his silly "IOF" comments. And Sin, what exactly is your list of Jews supposed to mean? You know as well as I do that they are in a clear minority of Jewish opinion, a fringe element, in fact many of these people don't identify with being Jews (ie have nothing to do with community life) until it comes to attacking Israel - then suddenly, they discover their Jewishness, and write stupid letters to the Times to show how acceptable they are to a non-Jewish readership. Really, this list proves nothing other than that there are always useful idiots. I could produce a longer list of Jews who collaborated with the Nazis. So what's your big point Sin?

Adam B.

Another thing Sin, your list provides absolutely no context - not that it will bother you. In your morally inverted world, people using violence to defend themselves (Israel) is worse than people using violence to carry out a racist and genocidal agenda of extermination (unfortunately most of the Islamic world against Israel and the Jews in general).

Adam B.

Sin, here's a list for you:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm

Si,N

ahad ha'amoratsim, Oslo was a joke - from what you write it's clear that you missed the punch-line. The type of incidents I listed have been happening for decades - from the initial and ongoing ethnic cleansing of Arabs from the land through to the current criminal acts that are rightly described by Melanie Phillips as the acts of 'barbarians'.

Also, truly 'odd' is your assertion that I would approve of a situation where 'an Arab stabs Jewish civilians, or a bunch of Arabs tortures a Jewish child to death'. What an utterly bizarre fantasy world you live in - please point to any instance where I have condoned such actions.

JJS, I don't 'collect' the '"evidence"' but I do deliberately quote it. The work is undertaken by umpteen brave Human Rights agencies operating in the occupied territories and Israel. One such, B'Tselem, is particularly effective at exposing the aggressive actions of the IOF and increasingly belligerent settlers. B’Tselem’s initiative, ‘Shooting Back’ (http://www.btselem.org/english/Video/),
has amassed a miserable wealth of images showing graphically the daily torments that are recorded in the reports that I deliberately quoted. Why don't you have a look – see it with your own eyes, you may as well. Thanks to the honest work of courageous individuals the world is seeing: IOF thugs shooting a handcuffed blindfolded Palestinian detainee (July 2008); settler vandalism to Palestinian olive trees (February 2008); a helmeted IOF thug head-butting a Palestinian lady and man in Jerusalem (November 2008); house demolitions in Far'un village to make way for the illegal separation wall (January 2008); and on and on, much like the list I posted – constant misery inflicted on a daily basis by a monstrous occupation force – for 6 decades.

The recent events in Hebron are not even the latest events.

You say I am dishonest. I say look at the ‘Shooting Back’ footage. As a supporter of Israel, like Melanie, you should be truly horrified by what you see. You see I’m assuming it is honest ignorance that impels you. If you repeat your slur, it’s clear that you side with those who act like barbarians.

phil

SIn you missed the partridge in a pear tree-what a waste of your time I bet nobody read any of it -due to the catalogue of your previous lies .

koestler Adam has taken the words out of my mouth-as for RJD what an intelligent, articulate, and compassionate person .you should study at his feet .

Adam B.

Sin, do you condemn suicide bombings against Israeli civilians?

Everyone, please note that Sin will never answer this question, and he has repeatedly refused to do so. The absence of an answer tells you everything you need to know about him, and his so-called concern for human rights. On endless threads he produces lists, I provided him with a long list of innocent Israelis murdered by Palestinians, to which he didn't respond. His tactic is to always attack, thereby negating the need to ever answer anything put to him. Until, he answers the above question, I suspect people will treat his comments adn motives with suspicion.

Sin will never understand that Arab genocidal hatred of Israel and the Jews predates his silly "IOF" comments. And Sin, what exactly is your list of Jews supposed to mean? You know as well as I do that they are in a clear minority of Jewish opinion, a fringe element, in fact many of these people don't identify with being Jews (ie have nothing to do with community life) until it comes to attacking Israel - then suddenly, they discover their Jewishness, and write stupid letters to the Times to show how acceptable they are to a non-Jewish readership. Really, this list proves nothing other than that there are always useful idiots. I could produce a longer list of Jews who collaborated with the Nazis. So what's your big point Sin?

hadrian

One cannot but be sympathetic with the plight of some of the settlers though there is no doubt deliberately provocative settlement of land does the Jewish cause no good. However the real point here is that some of these ouls have gone on the rampage under the delusion that mimicking Islamic violence will ensure long-term success. Emphatically it will not. That implacability finally destroys even itself. Shun it like the plague.
Another embarrassment for Christians must be the ludicrous situation of four rival denominations, all claiming possession of the Church of the Holy Sepluchre in Jerusalem, and all at each others' throats most of the time so that the keys to the building have to be under the guardianship of a Moslem! We all fall far short of true holiness but such behaviour is downright un-Christian!

Auzzi Shezza

Melanie I think you did not read the actual supreme court ruling. the supreme court ruling was that the government could remove the residents of "peace house" pending the outcome of the the matter in the lower courts. That is, it was at the discretion of the government whether or not to remove them. The defence minister Barak chose to remove them. Please also have a look at the original supreme court judges on the case and who they were replcaed by. Just on another note the "Supreme Court" ruling overturned a lower court ruling that there was no legal reason to remove the residents from there home. I am in no way Justifying the behavior of the rampagers, however, several of the claims made by the police have been withdraw for example acid being thrown at a policeman. This leads me to believe that the behavior being reported is perhaps not what actually happened. These people have been demonised by the press for a long time in order to make their mistreatment palatable to then general population in Israel. Perhaps it would be prudent of you to fully investigate the matter before being so horified. What you find out may be completely different to what the media is spinning.

George Steiner

I think Melanie Phillips indignicates too much. And from a safe distanec too.

Saul Starozinsky

Dear Mellanie! As some others I for the first time , will not agree with you! I hope that next time You will not be i a hurry to analyze such like events! I understand it was disgusting to watch jewish rioters on TV. But there are suspisions that some of them were security services agents provocateur. And others were simple hooligans who lost their faith in democracy. And they really must be punished!!!
Look today Kiryat Arba resident Zev Baruda was released from custody by Jerusalem Magistrate Judge Malkah Aviv. Baruda was arrested for shooting at two Arabs in Hevron last Thursday. The police claim that Baruda committed a crime while Baruda maintains that he shot in self defense.
Judge sharply criticized the police. She said: “The police blindly follow the press’ version of events. I have no doubt that the suspect poses no threat to his surroundings.”

Koestler

"you mean like pointless, empty comments such as yours?"
What is the comparison Adam B. = Phil? I've seen how you treat contentful comments and it ain't pretty. Still, if you wish to devote your life to sycophantic combox drivel based on what appears to be minimal knowledge/reading re. the Middle East (you read Hebrew and Arabic don't you!) then that it your choice. That it is a degenerate one is rather depressing. Still Adam B. = Phil I'll leave you to it.

Koestler

phil = Adam B. - hmm RJD is right is he: "To force Israel out of land that belongs to God given israeli territory, would be to put the security of all Jews at risk." Some Christian - seems to have missed out on the New Testament and the New Covenant. But then that wouldn't concern you would it. Still, keep up the idiocy Phil=Adam B.

Adam B.

Koestler, most of your post is rather incomprehensible, but i gather that you are very upset that Phil and I tend to agree with each other. I will now say that Koestler=Sin, to even up the score. Now you can enjoy your ignorant and hypocritical Israel bashing together - sorry you felt all alone! Maybe next time you could actually engage in the debate, rather than snipe from the sidelines with any worthwhile contribution.

Adam B.

Sin, do you condemn suicide bombings against Israeli civilians? Still waiting...

Adam B.

Koestler, where does it say in the New Testament that the land no longer belongs to the Jews? And if so, does that make Jesus a Jewish settler from Bethlehem? I seem to remember something about that...

Adam B.

Koestler, do you speak Chinese? If not, I assume you have no opinion about Tibet, being unable to read any primary sources in the original language. What a silly argument!

Raven

Wow.

I didn't know that Alexie Sayle was a 'prominent Jew' - Last I heard he was a unprominent comedian.
Jerry Sadowitz hasn't signed up to this self hating shower of shit brigade even though he's openly Jewish and much much funnier. Doesn't need to be adored by the Guardian intelligensa to feel.......accepted.

Leaving the lights on for the Germans. Nothing more, nothing less

Koestler

No I don't read Chinese - nor do I spend a lot of time commenting on Tibet. Unlike you and the Middle East it would seem. The New Covenant supersedes the Old - the Old Covenant does not remain so there can be no land-based claim based upon a Covenant that no longer exists.
btw I have on this forum expressed no opinion whatsoever about the settlements - but you will jump to conclusions.
You don't know the languages, the relevant theology etc. etc. Shame you still devote so much time to what you don't know. Just the kind of people Alan Dershowitz loves - ignorant calumniators. Good luck finding a life Adam B. = phil.

Adam B.

Koestler, oh dear, more upset. I must have really done something to upset you - defend Israel against hateful individuals like Sin it seems. So you have no opinion on Tibet, nor on settlements. Yet you continue to comment and say precisely nothing. In light of this, I think it's you who needs a life (and an opinion - go on, live dangerously!) By the way, I didn't realize that believing in the New Testamnet means that one no longer believes in the Old Testamnet. Somehow, I don't think you've quite got that one right (and have you read it in the original language? If not, how can you believe in anything?)

Nachman

Si, N thank you for pointing out how diligent the IDF are in protecting me and mine from Islamist terrorists who you no doubt support wholeheartedly in their quest for Jewish blood - I will sleep easier tonight

Si,N

Adam B. [hairsplitter in denial], 'still waiting'? Koestler's right, you need a life.

Btw, your repeated query about an aberrant and abhorrent response to the ‘constant’ murderous oppression systematically meted out in occupied territories is a transparent attempt to deflect attention away from the barbarian antics which Melanie rightly excoriates. When will your eyes open?

Why don’t you stop ‘waiting’ around and do something useful like view the ‘Shooting Back’ footage? Then you’ll know what ‘genocidal hatred’ actually looks like.

Barbarian

Adam B.

Sin, we're back to "barbarian" are we? At least it's not "cowardly barbarian" as it was last time. I stopped name calling in the playground - apparently, you're still there. And why am I a "barbarian"? Because I have repeatedly asked you whether you condemn suicide bombings which target innocent Israelis. You have refused to answer, and it is apparent that you support these Islamist killers, whether in Tel Aviv or Mumbai. Who's the barbarian now?

It's really funny to see you "agreeing" with Melanie, so I suppose you also agree with her comments about the Palestinian lies of Pallywood, and how most settlers are peaceful and are frequently attacked by Palestinians? It really irks you that someone doesn't leave the field open to your hatred, doesn't it? hence the personal attacks, which are a badge of honour coming from you, or koestler who doesn't have an opinion, other thann to say he deosn't have an opinion!

phil

KOESTLER DO YOU HAVE A POINT-?its getting very boring

-cant be bothered with sin he,s off his chump -although I see he has changed his name to barbarian -much the same -

best regards to ADAM B :)this is good fun

Koestler

Adam B. = phil
"I didn't realize that believing in the New Testamnet [sic] means that one no longer believes in the Old Testamnet [sic]"
It doesn't - nor did I say it did. Re. my earlier posts re. Covenants (somehow you didn't manage to read them before moving toward your fallacious response). Moroever the OT is written in Hebrew (one of the languages I referred to as one you are lacking - so try and guess whether I have read it in the original language Adam B. = phil). And it does help reading the original (you (and our fundamentalist Christian Zionist poster)appear not to have even understood some basic truths of an English translation of the Good Book). Moreover I never said one cannot comment when one lacks proper knowledge of primary sources. If you had read my original post you would have realised that too.
You haven't upset me and I haven't read your exchanges with Sin but I do note you call him a hateful individual, which seems rather uncharitable. Goodbye.

ahad ha'amoratsim

I think Uri Orbach sums it up nicely at http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3634156,00.html

"One can be in favor of the right of Jews to hold on to the House of Peace in Hebron, yet at the same time be outraged by the thuggish behavior of the youths there. One can see the injustice inherent in the court ruling, yet continue the fight without going crazy. " [i.e. the fight in the legal and political sense]

"One can be both a rightist and a religious Zionist without Daniela Weiss’ ecstasy representing us and leading us by the nose, as if this is the only way one can love the Land of Israel.

And so what if she’s “one of us?” What do we have to do with the stone throwers, the people who vandalize tombstones, and those who attack officers and rabbis? And who decided, for God’s sake, that every time Ben-Gvir, Marzel and their buddies decide to get angry, which happens every two weeks, we all need to drop everything we are doing at the time and enlist to support their agenda?

This fight is not only about Hebron; rather, is also about our right-wing views and our Zionism and our religious views. It is a struggle about their substance, and to a large extent about the proper conduct befitting civilized Jews."

"normal rightists know how to distinguish between appropriate, well-supported positions and a violent and crazed style adopted by 16-year-olds. Indeed, for every blow that a soldier sustains, the religious Zionist camp and its love for the Land of Israel sustain two blows."

Adam B.

Phil, I like nothing more than winding Sin up! Well, not quite true...but good fun nonetheless! I think he's about to explode in his own venom. We better not appear too friendly - Koestler might feel left out!

Adam B.

Koestler, you haven't read the exchanges, so you don't know what you're talking about. Interestingly, you feel you can comment on this in your ignorance, but not on anything else. Note he calls me a barbarian. Isn't that uncharitable, old chap? Just what are you saying about languages then? Please elucidate, because at the moment, you're not making any sense. And in some round about way by referring to Covenants, you seem to be making some kind of anti-Zionist statement, without being clear. Come on, out with it.

Terry

Melanie

I don't disagree that some of the Hebron Jews behaved badly towards the arab settlers on Jewish land which is nonetheless in dispute over its status. But we shouldn't expect different behaviour from people who are demonised even by the Israeli left. I understand, for example that the composition of judges in this case was altered to favour left wing opinion and come down against the Jewish residents of Hebron.

I don't excuse some of the behaviour that took place, but I believe you are wrong, Melanie, to divorce such behaviour from the gaza dispossession. This was the most disgraceful event in Israel's history. The government of a Jewish state dispossessing lawful citizens of their homes, communities and businesses under the sole criteria that they were Jewish. An act that even handed 'judenrein' territory to fascist murderers who worship the ground *itler walked upon and certainly crave the genocide of all Jews.

And the dispossessed Jews of Gaza have been left in abject poverty without proper compensation ever since.

Perhaps if the arabs were to stop craving Jewish genocide, there would be far fewer incidents like the recent one in Hebron. This was ugly, but no less ugly than the Israeli left's crusade against law abiding Jews in order to appease nazi arabs.

Adam B.

Sin, do you condemn suicide bombings against Israeli civilians? Earth calling Planet Sin...

phil

koestler -I must repeat have you a message -or am I dealing with a man who is totally discombobulated I have no idea what it is you want to say -but I do note you tell us you have not read our comments to sin -nevertheless you seem to know what we have said -well that at least is in accord with the strange loops your mind is taking you -
What is it in the bible you want to tell us .do it in either English or Hebrew ,which you seem to imply you speak .

Si, N

Ah bless, Nachman's had a humanity bypass too.

Adam B.

Sin, where is YOUR humanity when you refuse to condemn terror attackes deliberately aimed at civilians?

phil

planet zog to adam b --sin calling -from koestler,s cave -all my words are being lost in translation over the ether and I am really a lovely person just totally confused from years of cerebral starvation -I wish to obtain Israeli citizenship and return to earth where I would be able to condemn attacks on civilians -I would become an ambassador for peace and never tell an untruth again even against Israelis who I love -please adam b forgive me -I knoweth not what I do -much love to you and phil my best friends on earth .I am sending this through phils name as outer space will not pass on my name .please Pete see this gets through I love those guys

phil

ADAM B just to clarify it was indeed me who wrote the message from outer space -thought it would give you a smile -anyway he doesnt have a sense of humour -best regards phil

Koestler

Adam B. = phil
"hateful indvidual" was written as a description of "Sin" in a post directed at me (so I read it without reading the correspondence itself). Still haven't read said correspondence nor do I intend to - I'd rather read books by bona fide scholars on these issues - just thought the reference was, in all likelihood, uncharitable (and given your readiness to jump to conclusions chances of lack of charity are likely to increase). Haven't made an anti-Zionist statement (again -how quickly you assume) merely pointed out that the Christian Zionist argument deployed by the Christian poster cannot be backed up by Biblical claims understood through Christian teaching re. Covenants. I made no comment re. whether Zionism could be justified, defended on other grounds. Simple really, if you care to think/study logic/read etc.

Adam B.

Yes Koestler, you've said nothing at all. What's the point of contributing then?

Phil, it certainly did make me smile! A sense of humour is always appreciated (by some!)

phil

Koestler have you arrived from zog to bend my mind -I honestly havnt a clue what you are trying to tell us .
How about starting with where you stand on the issue of Zionism ,as you keep mentioning it -try Christianity and Judaism and at least we will know what we are dealing with here
.
Just to clarify my own position for you I despise Sin and any other haters who come along here to waste our time with a pack of lies -now its your turn .

Si,N

'[Y]ou've said nothing at all'. That's rich!

Allow me to adumbrate the hair-splitter in denials (hid) contribution to this thread. Of the 17 posts attributed to Adam B., exactly none has even attempted to address the issue of settler violence. Though hid's 'point of contributing' is adumbantly clear: to obfuscate and generally deflect attention away from the subject of the thread. Hid clearly approves of the the behaviour that Melanie Phillips has honestly characterised as 'barbarian'. He's a disgrace.

Pp (Handwringer in Chief), I have some old copies of Jinty and Bunty for you - bit of a literary challenge to flex the weary grey-matter in the winter months.

Si,N

Koestler, 'I'd rather read books by bona fide scholars on these issues'. Right on. Have you got around to Norman Finkelstein yet? 'Beyond Chutzpah', 'his destruction of Alan Dershowitz' risible, 'The Case for Israel', is a staggering work. Both books and the attendant Human Rights reports/rulings from International bodies etc(which Finkelstein cites extensively and Dershowitz wholly ignores - he has to disregard them - they damn Israel)should be required reading for anybody commenting on the seemingly interminable occupation by Israel of Palestinian lands.

Best wishes.

Adam B.

Sin, see Melanie's posts about the corrupt international bodies you love.

Adam B.

Sin, you refuse ppoint blank to condemn Palestinian terrorism which deliberately targets innocents, (and kills) yet with an instance of settler violence (which actually killed no-one), you jump in with both feet to declare your moral outrage. In fact, it is simply an expression of your obsessive hatred against the Jewish state. You are utterly transparent.

Koestler

Hello Si,N
Yes I have read both Finkelstein and Dershowitz (Case for Israel and Case for Peace)and many many others with differing views (Karsh, Cruise O'Brien, Morris, Shlaim, etc. etc.) I have yet to see any refutation of any of the claims Finkelstein makes against D. addressed - only distracting name-calling from D. that doesn't address the points put before him (sound familiar!).
As regards international bodies/human rights orgsanisations etc. - I have my problems with them but there is no doubt that a great deal of valuable data has been collected by HR groups (and of course Zionists are very keen on citing international law when it comes to the original recognition of Israel). Nor are the HR organisations "anti-Israel" as far as I can see - they (despite what certain propagandists say) condemn Arab regimes more than they do Israel )just check their websites and read their reports)and were, arguably, biased toward Israel when reporting on the 2006 conflict with Lebanon. I suspect that merely stating this uncontroversial truth will qualify me as a "hater" by certain charitable posters. Who cares. As to making a point - well I did attempt to get them to look at some theology so as to examine Christian Zionist arguments re. Jewish settlements etc. (one more relevant point than phil=Adam B made)I fear. They apparently ignored this. Their loss. Si,N, I wouldn't bother spending too much time with these ill-read types (their posts suggest that Dershowitz, Phillips and Wikipedia are about as far as they appear to have got). As to wasting your time phil=Adam.B - you seem to be rather good at doing that without assistance.

Adam B.

Sin, you have refused to condemn Palestinian terrorism deliberately aimed at civilians (which kills many) but jump in with both feet to declare your moral outrage at an instance of settler violence (which killed no-one). Why?

phil

sin and koestler glad to have had the chance to introduce you two .you can now write to each other as no doubt you have noticed that Adam B and myself are the only ones who write to either of you and it must be obvious its only to take the mickey -ADAM LETS LEAVE THESE KISSING COUSINS TO ONE ANOTHER NOW we have more important things to talk about than the dross these two produce .

Si,N

Koestler, thanks for that. Yes you are correct, there is a wealth of recent writing that seeks to understand/explain the occupation in terms that diverge from the tired narrative that was foisted on the world. I too have reservations about International bodies – but I think they’ve largely been hobbled by the cynical veto power of Empire builders. Far more worthy of our attention are the human rights organisations who painstakingly document the transgressions of Palestinian and Israeli alike. The thing is, the reports utterly damn Israel, whose ‘full spectrum’ oppression of the Palestinians can only be described as systematic and genocidal.

I try not to squabble with Hairsplitter in denial and Handwringer in Chief (Adam B. and pp [phil]). I generally try to get in, make my point and sign off. But their myopia where Israel is concerned and their insistence on deflecting attention away from the ongoing occupation by Israel of Palestinian lands often spurs me to linger and reiterate facts about the occupation over and again. Obviously that is important, otherwise terms like ‘disputed territories’ become common currency.

You’ll notice that Hairsplitter in denial has been badgering me for an answer to a particular question – a sensible person could have deduced my feelings about it from my posts on this thread alone. However, I did once on another thread give a full response to the very question he asks here. Unsurprisingly he ignored all the points that I made and started talking about a conflict on another continent. Handwringer in Chief never really says anything and generally breaks down in a welter of incomprehensible remarks about old comics – hence my comment to him a about Jinty and Bunty – thought I’d get the silliness in first on this occasion.

Again, best wishes.

Adam B.

One more point Koestler - doesn't it bother you at all that Sin refuses to condemn Palestinian terror deliberately aimed at civilians? Doesn't this tell you something?

Koestler

All I can tell is that Si'N wants to answer that question with a detailed response and that he says his points regarding it were previously ignored. Given my experience here the latter part of the statement certainly rings true (sadly). If you must know, I condemn all deliberate killing of civilians (as well as torture, disproportionate (to a just end) and foreseable killing of civilians, foreseeable killing of civilians in an unjust war or for an unjust end, killing of civilians through collective punishment etc. etc.)

Adam B.

Koestler, it doesn't require a detailed response - this simply means that such a condemnation would need to be qualified. Such qualifications and excuses for terrorism are morally reprehensible in my book. And one other thing - I have never seen Sin answer the question, and certainly not with a condemnation. Unfortunately, you seem to engage in this moral blindness as well, with words such as "foreseable" (sic), which is open to any interpretation one wishes to place on it. Of course it is right that every precaution be taken to avoid civilian casualties in a war, but you must surely see the difference between deliberately aiming to kill civilians, (Hamas and Hizbollah) or taking action against terrorist groups in self defence with due care, which sometimes has the tragic result of civilian casualties. To say that one must never take any action which COULD result in civilian casualties leads to the inevitable conclusion that one must never engage in any kind of armed conflict at all; war is messy and imprecise, and no matter how many precautions one takes to avoid civilian casualties, tragic mistakes will always occur. The answer in the case of Israel and the Arabs would be for the Arab world to give up its idea of annihilating Israel. Then Israel will not need to respond to rockets, suicide bombers and sniper attacks, which are often cynically carried out from civilian population centres, with the knowledge that any reaction from Israel will either be impossible (to avoid civilian casualties) or would cause civilian casualties (propaganda victory). Only when the genocidal war against Israel ceases will peace agreements stick. I am however grateful for your reply, and that you do indeed condemn the deliberate targeting of civilians.

Si, N

You see, there's that myopia again, hid wholly fails to take into account the fact that Israel is the prime aggressor. Israel was established on land ethnically cleansed of Palestinians/Arabs. Israel has since occupied more Palestinian land and continues to illegally transfer an imported populace of Jews into those occupied territories. Remember, the 'barbarian' antics of the 'settlers' is the topic of this thread. Hid's posts now number 22 - not one has addressed the issue of 'settler violence'.

If anybody is ducking the issues around here, it's hid.

Koestler

Adam B.
USe of the term forseeable is absolutely standard when applying the principle of double-effect - central to area of moral philosophy in relation to war etc. I took care to distinguish between just/unjust ends and proportionality etc. (so foresseing the deaths of a huge number of civilians for what was originally a just end (say taking out one ineffective rocket launcher) would, on the face of it, be morally wrong given the disproportion (though of a different type than deliberate killing). Of course PDE generally assumes that one CAN undertake actions that will, as a side effect, result in civilian deaths - and I agree with that (sorry if that wasn't clear before - I thought it was).
That said a complete refusal to take seriously the harm of civilian deaths in pursuit of a reckless war is, very very wrong (compare a liar (deliberate killer) with someone who speaks with no regard as whether whathe says is true or not (bomber insufficuently concerned about proportion of civilian casualties to the moral/strategic importance of his mission). But I suggest you check out some work on double-effect - it's useful for clarifying intuitions about the ethics of war (see David Oderbeg Moral Theory). The questions which Si,N allude to concern matters of historic justice etc. which are, it seems, his main concern. These are going to be largely historical questions - questions where we need as much data as possible in order to assess the justice of a particular position etc. Highly partical accounts either way aren't going to help achieve any solution. Of course how one sees the present conflict and the putative justifications of the actors within it will be informed by one's view of the historic injustices that one percieves one or other side to have suffered. Such considerations are likely to have an effect on how one views the culpability of either side re. actions - even when such actions are morally wrong in themselves. Also, what one regards as a legitimate military operation or targeting of a military barracks will be dictated by the kind of wider considerations that I presume Si,N is concerned with.

phil

Koestler , I had no intention of posting again ,but now you have chosen to state your views which is a start ,so I will respond .

SIN aptly named chooses to lie and has done ever since I have come across him -He well knows who started the 1948 war ,1967(just in time to avert the strike by the massed armies of nasser),1973 .and was the cause of the 1980 invasion of the Lebanon at the request of the Christians as well as the latest Lebanese problem ,in every case it was the ARABS --History does not lie

.The stated objectives is the annihilation of the Jews and Israel as it is written. Tell me what would you do to `protect your family ,as in every case of withdrawal by the Israelis ,they have been further attacked from the new advanced positions .Are you going to invite sin and his friends round for tea to discuss the problems -I think not
.
In 1948 Israel was immediately attacked by multiple Arab armies and Tel Aviv bombed ,not the other way round ,they were cut off from Jerusalem which was within the borders set out by the UN -land was stolen by conquest which later was taken back and has become the lie "occupied territory" quoted by 242 in sins demented mind -enough now of the history lessons as there is much more I could tell you

-I just ask you if you can really find reason to agree with this ridiculous man who cannot see that by sitting down with those that want peace ,would obviate the necessity to retaliate and kill unfortunates ,many of whom want no part in this insanity

If you want to support hamas and hesbollah .tell me and we need not discuss this further.,personally I would like to see a peaceful Palestinian state living side by side with Israel and with it the possibility of seeing the desert bloom again -justice and peace for the future generations together with hope for the children of both peoples ,this Mr Koestler is the real desire of the Jewish people around the world but it needs the care and compassion of the enemies that surround us -Your "friend"sin is certainly not one of them -he never writes about peace only about accusations and lies .Without wishing to patronise you may I suggest you study the history in detail of this unfortunate area before falling for the lies and obfuscations perpetrated upon us all by the likes of the sin .

phil

Koestler I wrote my previous response before your last was posted-and I am left wondering whether you do know the origins of the state of Israel and of the conflict.or in fact are you judging the moral issues on more recent events -I am not sure so maybe you will clarify-I believe I have many more years on this subject than the ridiculous sin who can only list "atrocities " and even those only from one side ,so if you really want to know what happened just ask -you will get some sense from either me or Adam B and then you can choose to believe it or not as maybe .There are numerous others who write here who know far more than us and you can go back through Mels threads and read for yourself -You will read scholarly posts rather than the category of lies sin has posted since ever we came across him -he and his type bear a heavy responsibility for the lack of progress on this sad subject

Koestler

phil
I have read an awful lot about the history and the conflict - with a particular concern for primary sources. I have made an effort to read a wide range of historians etc. on the conflict and have tried my best to get a clear picture of the situation (btw I think you meant 1982 Lebanon war). Sadly much of the debate outside of scholarly discourse (and even inside to some extent) is so incendiary that I try to steer clear of it and am unsure whether Blogs are the best place to get into it (as opposed to using Blogs to make more general moral points about current news events). Of course it's unrealistic to suppose that in making such points the historical record will come up. All I can say at present is that I do not support terrorist groups or groups that carry out, on a regular basis, the kinds of activites I listed earlier. I really don't think that Melanie is a serious source on these issues (I suspect she wouldn't think so either) but I have read Effraim Karsh, Walter Lacquer, Cruise O'Brien, Howard Sachar (and more e.g Samuel Katz) all of whom are more or less Zionist and who strike me as more plausible (scholarly) defenders/explicators of some of the actions surrounding the founding of Israel. That said I think that the so-called New historians have undeniably uncovered some very troubling and ignored information about the same period. I certainly think that Dershowitz is unreliable and can;t understand why serious Zionists would enlist him when there are capable historians they might refer to. As to lies - I haven't read enough posts - but might they not be errors rather than lies? And I think it best if we try always to address facts presented to us (on either side) carefully - if we think they are false/misleading we need to refute them rather than shoot the messenger - so if you think Si,N is wrong in citing data from human rights orgs (I just looked at it briefly) then say why (I haven't investigated these specific claims so I simply don't know who is telling the truth). Sorry not to be more helpful - I am only trying to bring to bear moral judgements on what I thik I have good reason for believing (which will tend to be more recent events) - re. earlier events I prefer to express my views in academic journals etc. as they are a more appropriate forum for this kind of thing.

phil

Koestler thanks for a reasoned response -we now know a little more of one another -as for sin many of us here have tried and failed to reply and point him in another direction where he can then evaluate his facts but he is not interested and that is why he gets such aggro from so many

.Harsh words I know but he is a liar who flits from one lie to the next never answering those that challenge him ,in fact he just disappears,waiting for another chance to strike just like a virus -Adam B has shown more patience than me and more than sin deserves,as I said earlier he and his like are part of the cause of this conflict not being resolved .their hatred and unbending attitude keep all the fires burning and I despise him for it .

You will no doubt hear from him again if not here he will be waiting an opportunity to abuse both Israel and the Jewish people ,so as Adam has taught me I will not ignore him lest anyone thinks he is telling the truth due to a lack of a response .

I would point you in one direction that is to read what Roslyn Pine writes here from time to time ,she is really well informed and will cite places to check her facts ,better than ever I can do

phil

koestler I did indeed mean 1982 -sorry to fast on the keyboard

Adam B.

Phil and Koestler, now the debate has become interesting and measured - thank you!

phil

ADAM B :)

tom

'Hideously, this is the very behaviour from which Israeli Jews suffer constantly at the hands of the Arabs.'
i love you melanie!! who else could help me form my opinions with so little effort required on my part?!?!

Si, N

Pp (hic), ‘so as Adam has taught me I will not ignore him lest anyone thinks he is telling the truth due to a lack of a response’.

But handwringer, you and hid habitually ignore the documentary content of my posts - beyond screeching your default mantra: ‘hate-filled – anti-semitic – lies’; you have never responded sensibly. When I point to what appears to me to be compelling documentary material, I hope that those who could consider that I believe I am ’telling the truth’, actually view the material - acknowledge its existence and comment upon it - rather than savaging the teller.

This is a gem: ‘he and his like are part of the cause of this conflict not being resolved .their hatred and unbending attitude keep all the fires burning and I despise him for it’.

Now we begin to see who it is doing the hating around here. Sadly, your hatred blinds you to a certain truth: the conflict can never be resolved until all of the crimes cease and as many wrongs as possible are righted. Of course suicide bombings are to be deplored – I deplore them - but no more or less than I do the maltreatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories. When so much evidence exists to refute such a claim; only a fool would say that suicide bombings are lies. I’d never trust anybody who posited such a notion. But, that’s effectively what you do when you say that I spread lies. I’ve yet to discover whether it’s mendacity or just ignorance that drives you. Whatever, the net effect is that you do everything in your power to keep submerged the true extent of the crimes committed against the Palestinian people. For sure, drowning out the voice uttering unpalatable truths with shrieks of lies lies lies merely assures further conflict. And yet in all your inflexible pomposity you assert that mine is the ‘unbending attitude’ – can no degree of Arab suffering force you to take an honest peek from behind your rigid spite?

My posts are forceful because that is the standard set by the self-confessed ‘aggro’ merchants that you are. I expect nothing but ‘aggro’ from you – however, that will never stop me posting on this blog.

phil

sin "Of course suicide bombings are to be deplored – I deplore them -" did you really say that after all the years Adam has asked you to?

-You have been a one way ticket all that time and of course I despise you for it ,its not the same as hate ,look it up-hatred eats away at one as it has for you but not me as I would not waste my life hating you -despise you and your kind ,yes I admit guilty as charged -because you have no balance, your hatred of Jews and Israelis blinds you to any form of reason ,which confirms my description of you as one who prolongs the conflict .

Both Adam and I seek solutions other than blind accusations which are your forte ,as are your childish names of hic and hid whatever they may mean -maybe you will tell us -pp I have worked out thank you

.I think we respond to you because you amuse us and are available to practice our humour on ,but you will have noticed that we both try to post with common sense to others on the whole even when we don't agree with them -maybe you will engage your mind on that and wonder why you are the recipient of so much abuse-You will never achieve anything for your cause until you learn respect for others and their opinions too .The Palestinian people have a right to a better life which I have no doubt would be quickly available to them when those like you have sunk below the parapet ,both they and the Israeli children will have a life to look forward to, but not as long as your hatred continues to fuel the conflict .