Groundhog day for the fifth column of malice

Ian C

I was surprised that the shots on the BBC news that I have seen have not been of the sort of blood covered children being wailed over by screaming mothers - yet. Although the BBC managed to make it 'news' that a few hundred protesters turned up outside a few Israeli embassies, Bowen realised that Hamas have handed Israel a prime opportunity to go in hard at a very bad time - before Obama moves into the White House.

Hamas have given Israel the chance to hit them hard after they have made it clear that they have been the provocateurs. Hamas had been lulled into thinking that there would be a similar response to previous missile firings. But just after a cease fire that they did not renew and with noone at home in the White House they have handed the Israelis a clear opportunity to hurt them. Well done Israel for taking it this time.

Augustus

On BBC News 24 yesterday they were repeating, in bulletin after bulletin, that there had only been one Israeli dead, with nearly 300 Gazans dead and 900 injured, of which, according to some Palestinian doctor they had contacted, only a handful were Hamas fighters. Then they, and other Western media, try to make it all into an election issue. The BBC should indeed be held to account for its biased reporting. But, at the end of the day, they are only reflecting the socialist governments condemnation of Israel the world over. The media is just as bad in Western Europe, even in countries such as France and Holland where Jews suffered greatly from the Holocaust. But Israel will overcome all of this and will not stray from its rightful duty to protect its citizens from evil against it. Long may she show us the mettle of her pastures!

Rob-NY

The ignorance of this conflict among the general population and the media who should know better is appauling.
Please keep up the fight Melanie. Once reponsible journalists like you give up, all is lost.

Dee Rangedv

Melanie

Thank you for this revealing post.

But of course, it is Iran that is pulling the Hamas strings.

Will they open up another front in Southern Lebanon?

The British media, especially BBC and SKY news ought to be ashamed of themselves for the partial way they have reported on the situation.

Alan O'Reilly

Israel has a simple choice; fight or die.

“We will declare OUR STATE…with Jerusalem as its capitol; yes Jerusalem, the eternal capitol of OUR State whether [the Jews] like it or not! Now we are on OUR holy land, and we are regaining this HOLY land inch by inch” - the late Yasser Arafat, May 1999 (emphasis in original).

The Western media are simply the propaganda arm of Arafat's successors and their overlords.

Gil

Yesterday, I happened to be in the area where the demonstration against Israel took place, in Kensington. I heard chants of 'Allah Akbar' and cries to destroy Israel and kill Israelis. The hatred was unimaginable. The sight of dozens of people prostrating themselves in the road in prayer made clear the link between Islam as a religion and politics.

I'm still reeling after the latest shot in the war against the Jews and others whom the radical Left regard as enemies: Channel 4's lovefest with Ahmadinejad.

Winston Smith

I second Rob-NY'a comment on public ignorance. It really is frightening. Not only is the ignorance on Israel/Palestine frightening but so is the ignorance on Islam full stop!
Then again, do you really blame the public? Look at it from their point of view; the majority of the media put the blame on Israel. They also claim Islam is a religion of peace and that's straight down from the government. They are being brainwashed in schools also. Everything in society is saying that Israel are wrong and Islam is peace, can you really blame them?
There are people in society however that are not prepared to follow blindly along like sheep, but instead to question and bring change. It is this exact quality that brought the human civilisation in the West to where it is now - 1st world, free and democratic.
It is always much harder for these people as their lives are tormented, knowing that most times they are right, always attacked for what the say and ignored by the general public.
These people are the remnants.

We understand that the attack on Israel is from Palestine and Islam. However for Islam and Palestine to make out they are wrong will seriously tarnish their image they have been building to where it is now.

I am really amazed at how many people are unable to see the truth. It is unbelievable, then again, our societies are unbelievable, getting weaker and weaker every day.

I will always have full support for Israel, even though I am not religious but can see the truth before my eyes.

Koestler

"Those who scream ‘disproportionate’ think – grotesquely -- that not enough Israelis have been killed. "
Err - that doesn't follow at all. It merely means that a disproportionate amount of Palestinians have been killed relative to the supposed good that Israel is aiming to achieve. Basic really, but that won't stop Melanie smearing those who disagree with her (btw I seem to remember Melanie thinking that it was outrageous to call the 2006 bombing of Lebanon "disproprotionate". 1.2 million (yes - million) cluster bomblets in southern Lebanon - yes Melanie - outrageous indeed.

Geoff M

Every time these things happen the arabs are shown running about, shouting, and playing up for the camera.

Much of what I see is plainly a set up.

Yesterday they showed a group of, apparently, dead policemen.

Dead that is until one of them sat up and was waved and shouted at to lie down again.

The media cannot be so stupid as to believe what is going on in front of them.

Two reasons for playing along.

One, it is good Reportage. It gets you noticed by your bosses and you get promotion.

Two, the anti-semitic sentiments displayed by reporters means that they want to make things look bad for the Jews and happily conive in dishonest coverage.

Hamas holds its population as human shields. They are happy to be so, having voted for Hamas.

They have signed up for the Jihad and as such are all combatants.

Where was all the outrage as Hamas fired 3000 rockets in breach of the "cease fire"?

Why were they not filmed? Where are the jewish victims both killed, maimed and the vast numbers living in fear of the next rocket?

This is Jihad, pure and simple. Death, deceit, lies, manipulation and breaking of treaties.

Israel is doing what we should do to all Jihadists.

Bomb the hell out of them.

Its the only language they understand.

James Christie

Thankyou melanie for this timely article. I respect you so much, many blessings for the new year.

Tony

Israel has done only one thing wrong in Gaza. They have not mobilized their entire army and hit Hamas from 'day 1' with a massive, overwhelming force that could not be resisted.
Unfortunately, world pressure will come to bear before long and then Israel will have to leave before the job is done, just like in Lebanon in 2006. When will the Israeli generals ever learn? They should have mobilized 120 000 men and flooded the whole strip with troops.
Now all we will see is yet another Israeli "vietnam" or a Russian "Afghanistan" that will suck Israel's small number of forces committed to date into a stalemate.
Anyway, well done Israel and my advice to you is to ignore the media, they are all biased socialists so forget them.

Reis R. Kash

Anything written by Ms Phillips is worth reading, copying, and re-reading. The Fourth Estate has become the world's Fifth Column (or should that be columnist?)

Lazybones

Can this be true? Hamas enacts crucifixion as form of death penalty for "enemies of islam". Presumably meaning Christians. What other non-Islamic religions are there among the population of Gaza?

http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2008/12/the_realist_fantasy.asp#comments

SChurch

We, the common British people ,with no voice in the Establishment and media ,salute the Israeli people's strength , fearless ness , courage and resilience in the face of such endless harrass ment ,contumely , lies and general hatred and misinformation.

We are in a state of war. Israel , You are fighting for your very life and for the continuation of the Jewish peoples and her culture and for Western civilization Only Israel has the perspicacity and clarity of mind to see this clearly.

Our hearts leapt with joy- as you fight this terrible war of attrition to the very ,the very bitter end! We admire you.We salute you .We support you. We pray for your survival.

And for ours (since we are too misinformed to make the right decisions and take the right steps)

paul

"Many more died in Nazi Germany or Japan than in Britain or America during World War Two. Yet the scale of the Allied offensive was necessary to defeat Nazism and prevent yet more carnage amongst its designated victims."

My head has literally exploded from reading such concentrated logically fallacious reasoning.

hadrian

Paul, explain, precisely, the logically fallacious elements of the above extract!
As for the media's anti-Israel bias, the Channel Four News was at it too, giving voice to Gaza Aid workers harping on about breaches of 'international humanitarian laws' etc. Er, maybe it escaped them that Hamas has been rocketing Israeli towns and arming suicide bombers? It's easy to condemn Israel for rising to the provocation, but we all know the avowed genocidal mania that drives this bunch. The Islamic hysteria outside the Jewish Embassy only shows the irrational madness with which we all have to do.

JamesJ

Your head exploded? It figures. You obviously have no ability for critical thought.

Lazybones

@ hadrian
Unfortunately paul is unavailable to answer your question. He is no longer in our midst. Remember he told us, "My head has literally exploded"? Well then.

Brian Moshe

Melanie, a shame you have had your break interrupted. I looked only by chance to see if you might be back in view of the situation and am really pleased you will be monitoring the media at this critical time.

The TV coverage in the region of the USA where I am has been pretty disappointing, especially CNN. I have been looking at the London and Israeli newspapers on-line.

A graphic coloured photo on the Daily Mail site shows masked 'Palestinian' demonstrators wearing mock suicide bomber's belts.(Since they are masked how does the caption-writer know who they are?) Unfortunately due to lack of precision in the captioning it is impossible to say if these characters are in London or elsewhere.If they are in London why were they allowed to pose like this?

Gil - re your interesting post above - did you see these characters when you were in Kensington yesterday?

The London news reports and analyses are predictably either blaming Israel or vaguely hand-wringing for the civilians of Gaza in a way no reporters I can recall do for the innocent Israeli (or Arab Israeli)victims of the Hamas's Kassem rockets.

Given the recent war between Russia and Georgia in which the huge and aggressive Russian campaign killed civilians and destroyed much of Georgia's infrastructure on grounds that could have been resloved without Russia invading, it is quite sickening to read the hypocritical Russian condemnation of Israel's action against Gaza.

One of the actions the Russians took in Georgia was to bomb all its airbases and to remove planes that did not belong to them. Where was the world's hand-wringing media then?

I can remember the coverage of the 1967 Six Day War quite clearly. Every one held their breath as the Arab forces surrounded Israel. No one outside Israel gave her much chance but within six days the world had been turned on its head.

The only British publications that I saw that were unhappy with Israel's stunning victory were those on the extreme left and the English language propaganda mouthpieces of the Arab world. These latter were on sale in the communist bookshops of the Charing Cross Road and elsewhere.

It was over forty years ago that Arab propaganda was freely available in central London. A matter of weeks before the 1967 war an English language publication from Iraq contained an article by an Irish female writer in which she claimed that within a few weeks the entire Arab world would be removing the Zionist entity and she based this prediction on an interview with the then President of Iraq, shortly himself to disappear.

It would be quite wrong to think that the British and Western hostility to Israel in the media is something recent. Even as the Six Day War was still officially happening - although by this time virtually over - young unknown Arabs were being sympathetically interviewed on BBC TV while an Israeli spokesman was so sidelined in one interview that he said:
'I was invited here to state Israel's case. I have been refused that opportunity.'

Even then the BBC was pandering to these young Arabs by allowing them to dictate that (even in defeat) they would not sit near or take questions from Israelis.

Ann Farmer

Once again, in the media wars, it's heads Hamas wins and tails Israel loses.

Rob Tonlin

Well done Melanie !!. Keep up the good work. Our labour quislings wont be happy till we are all prostrated five times a day here in Britain. What a bunch lily livered cretins. Millibannana is a hypocrite in a staypress suit. Well done Israel fight and shame us for being cultural cowards !!.

mark

Do you consider criticism of any action of the State of Israel to be by definition antisemitic?

If criticism of Israel is an attack on all Jewish people, does that make all Jewish people responsible for the actions of the State of Israel?

I would suggest the answer to both questions is no, but I'm interested in hearing your views.

Jerry

Melanie, thank you for coming back on the scene. I do not believe we can get through this crisis without your sage and succinct observations.

pramod

Excellent description of what the ground reality is & a brilliant exposition of apologists(biased & blind) from the fourth estate & human rights(?)-which & whoose human rights these people talk of? human rights of perpetrators or victims of crime?- Once again a good article melanie, thanks for it. You have given a fitting reply to almost all the usual (one sided)arguments raised by people like Glen (in his ramblings in Salon)- who are safe & have never known what terror is nor have suffered from it. These "usefull idiots" are the ones used by terrorists & their supporters all over the world to drum up support for their inhuman acts and unfortuantely media all over the world is flooded with such dangerous,self serving idiots. Not much analysis is needed to know the mindset of the people who indulge in such acts & their supporters, the below statement from Hamas is enough:

"We believe in death,You believe in life."

It's upto us to choose on which side we need to be.

Adam B.

Israel offered to renew the ceasefire (such as it was with Hamas still firing rockets, to the deafening silence of the BBC etc). Hamas said the ceasefire was over, and rejected the offer. Hamas wanted war.

Well, now they have it.

Adam B.

Koestler, back to the "disproportionate" argument of 2006 are we? Tell me, when exactly does Israel's response to 6000 rockets become disproportionate? 50 deaths? 100 deaths? When? And who decides how Israel can defend her people, you?

Sounder

Augustus said: "On BBC News 24 yesterday they were repeating, in bulletin after bulletin, that there had only been one Israeli dead, with nearly 300 Gazans dead and 900 injured,"

Right. Because the Israelis did not bring their civilians with them to the fight.

Koestler

Some educative reading for our somewhat detached posters
http://antiwar.com/justin/justin122908.php
(oh - Ms Farmer - perhaps Israel loses because it ignores basic just war principles etc. etc. - shouldn't you care a bit more about that?).

ConcernedCanadian

The English Montreal media got it right from the beginning when Hamas started firing rockets again. It was good to see this reporting before Israel took action.

Today, in the paper and on TV, the Gaza situation was reported as a retaliation by Israel. And although there were some details missing in the reports, they got the gist of the situation, including that the majority of people killed were militants, not civilians.

Mordechai

Hi Melanie, superb article. I've written on the response of the Christian world here:

Christmas, Christians and Hamas

An American

Well...at least the US President is on the right side unlike the UK and France's ruling elites.

Guess they need that Islamic vote next election...

Fox News is using President Bush's quotes that Hamas is at fault and has continued to break the cease-fire that they agreed upon with Israel. Fox reporters have quoted the number of Hamas rocket attacks for the past years, months, days. They have had on various Israeli officials explaining why they were forced to respond to the increasing rocket attacks.

That's why I watch Fox and none of the other leftist news stations. I hope that Fox doesn't turn red after Obama becomes president. I do, however, see some of it seeping in.

I found it strange that the cameraman was filming an attack on the Hamas police academy when one of the leaders sat up and started spewing propaganda...wonder if he walked away after the cameraman said 'Cut'...

Good for Israel...you notice they aren't waiting for the Anointed One who most likely would agree with the Jewish-hating UN and other western countries and would come down on Hama's side.

I hope that Israel wipes out Hamas once and for all...
Hamas is nothing but a bunch of thugs who pocket other nation's gifts of money given to help poor Palestinian's
on weapons and rockets.

Hamas' demise would be good news for Israelis and Palestinians alike.

An American

Mark,
Of course not. You are dealing with mostly intelligent and fair-minded people on Melanie's blog.
I wonder how you would like to live in Israel today...

Israel has bent over backwards to accommodate Hamas and all the Islamic terrorists vowing to destroy them...

Perhaps that has been the problem...it's time for Israel to start thinking of their citizen's future safety and forget what the west thinks.

Most western politicians are just thinking about their power base being hurt by Muslim voters since they've let Muslims take over their countries.

This is about Israel's very survival.

Frank P

Melanie, I guessed that you might have to interrupt your holiday when Olmert started to issue warnings last week - shame, but thanks for dropping by to clue us up on developments. I hope you are in a safe place; a great post and it does indeed throw some heavyweight analysis into the scales to compensate for the appalling pro-Hamas propaganda aka 'News reportage' pumped out by the lamestream media here, particularly from Sky and the BBC. It is quite obvious that most of the 'civilian casualties' footage is contrived and if the hacks on the spot can't recognise that, then they should be sacked for naivity. But of course they know it only too well and I suspect that they are complicit in these rig-ups. Let's hope Israel puts an end to their perpetual provocation, by going in with a massive surge and whacking most of the tormentors. A severe lesson in harsh reality has been due for a long time. Go Israel!

Jose from Florida

Mark,

Do you consider criticism of any action of the Hamas to be by definition anti-Palestinian?

If criticism of Hamas is an attack on all Palestinian people, does that make all Palestinian people responsible for the actions of the Hamas?

I would suggest the answer to the first question is no, but the answer to the second question is a definite yes - after all, they elected the Hamas thugs.

Bill M

Melanie, You are a truth teller. Let it rip. Go Israel!

porkbelly

I noticed the London Times coverage always carefully referred to the Israeli military action as a "blitz", and the photos always depicted Israeli tanks and other war machines while the Palestinians are always helpless, unarmed, running for the safety of the nearest camera crew...

Peter Barry

Anyone who gets his "NEWS???" form the dhimmi MSM is either insane or a fellow Moonbat. The majority of the MSM, this columnist excluded, went to the same Left Wing anti American , anti Semitic Universities and were taught by the same biased left wing professors as the Judiciary the Police Chiefs and ALL Politicians. So it is no wonder Western democracy is in such a perilous state. Now the stupid Americans have elected the Obama Messiah who is a a proven LIAR and who also comes from the same left wing, anti semitic camp wait and see what he does.

Alan Bernson

In December 1941, no American had fired a shot a Japan or the Japanese. Suddenly, Japanese planes appeared over Pearl Habor and attacked the USA. 1500 Americans died.

In August 1945, we American dropped an atom bomb on Hiroshima and another on Nagasaki. 200,000 Japanese perished and the war ended.

Disproportion? You betcha! That is what winning is all about.

Israel, always dis-proportionate " and God Love you and keep you !

barking toad

And in Australia "our" ABC expresses moral outrage at the disproportinate response and plays with with moral equivalence.

Israel will never get a fair and reasoned response from the MSM - she should go ahead and totally destroy the hamas thugs - the media response will be the same regardless.

Erasmus

Hamas, I mean, ahem, Iran does not want peace. They want to kill Jews and destroy the state of Israel. We will back Israel with whatever we have.

JB

Jose from Florida,

Palestinians do not generally scream racist at anyone who disagrees with the actions of Hamas. People who feel strongly that they are right don't need to. It's only those who know what they are doing is wrong try to shut down the debate in this manner.

gary ashton

melanie keep writing, your the sole sane voice in an ocean of media madness.
over here in australia where we have masses of islamic people who have made their home here therefore the media is just as one sided. no reference to the terrible rocket attacks israel faced, the fear the citizens live under nor the ridiculous doctrine of hamas.
yes 'disproportion' is the word of the moment, everyone shocked by the scale of what they see on their screens quite rightly, human life should not be taken and war is an awful consequence of humanity but the facts are 1,126,325,000 muslims want to kill 6 million jews who live in a strip of land they returned to 60 odd years ago. Disproportion!

Archie

Well, Miss Phillips, we owe you a debt of gratitude for returning to the fray early, and spot-on SChurch!
All power to Israel, and shame on Western media and irresolute governments!

Grumpy the Great

Sky News - what a parody of of a 'news channel'
Just saw the 'hand puppet' - Brazier in an earnest discussion on the situation with David Davis (think he has something to do with your football), discussing the fact that that the US stance is bound to be pro Israel - because both Rahm Emanual and Hillary Clinton are 'both Zionists', rather than the fact that Ms Clinton is an intelligent person who is able to read the situation as it exists ie that yet again a proxy Iranian terror group is attempting to de-stabilize and re-configure the mid east according to its goals - irrespective of whether in so doing it manages to sacrifice citizens of Gaza now and Lebanon previously.
Islamo-facism at work before our vey eyes.

But back to the buffoons - Brazier/Davis.
One should stick to only reading the prompter, and avoid engaging his limited capacity, with idiotic remarks, whilst thr other should be back in the office working the phones, and trying to get another indulged football trashmonkey (although this does'nt really fit with Gerrard) out of the toilet. Definitely not there to make comments about a situation way more complex than whether the Italian will lead the Brits to victory come 2010.

Welcome back 'our Mel'- you are loved by a group of us here in the colonies.

Maven

Next time Milliband appears on tv and says that the level of deaths in Gaza is 'unacceptable' will someone tell him that according to the UN there are 57 civilian deaths out of 320 and that means just over 80% were Hamas. Will they then ask him about the death toll in Iraq (not that wacky 800,000) by direct action of coalition forces and ask him if that was Acceptable as he presides over it as Foreign Secretary. The answer is that we in the West, and Israel, targets enemy combatants whereas our enemies target civilians.

Gary O

al-bbc is shamelessly an anti-Israeli pro-islam mouthpiece for terrorists.

I do not and never will believe a word uttered on their news programmes.

Super Blue

Thankyou, Melanie, for such an interesting piece. It counteracts the propaganda that the BBC has spewed out recently.
A good context is the size of Israel - ten miles wide in part - surrounded by Arab nations and the sea. Some of those neighbours now have a modus vivendi with Israel and some do not.
Similarly, the Gospels tell of Jesus' family not returning home after his birth because of the political climate at the time - despite our subtle difference, I am sure you find this relevant.

Autriche

Spot on. This is not about a lunatic, Islamist entity which needs to be removed one way or another (at best surgically) - this is about an assault on the West led by a supine media - a West with a spineless leadership burying its head in the sand.

It may have been turkeys for Christmas, but welcome to ostritches for the foreseeable future ...

Koestler

"Koestler, back to the "disproportionate" argument of 2006 are we? Tell me, when exactly does Israel's response to 6000 rockets become disproportionate? 50 deaths? 100 deaths? When? And who decides how Israel can defend her people, you?"
Well I suppose dropping 50 atom bombs on Gazq would be dispropotionate - don't you? Apparently not all posters here have a problem with atom bombs though.
As to the notion of disproportionality - it's basic to just war theory traditionally understood. If you accept that there is such a thing as disproportionality (see above) then a state can act disproportionately. That judgement is made in terms of the end to be achieved. I think that those who ignore the very principles of just war theory should not be the ones making the decisions about how to wage war. btw - I don't think such actions are likely to help Israel in the long run either - many Israelis think they are counterproductive.

Mladen Andrijasevic

I wonder how many people posting on this site are aware that Article 7 of the Hamas Charter which reads "O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP109206

is taken from hadith Bukhari (Vol 4, Book 52, No. 177) and quotes prophet Muhammad?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html

Emmet Sweeney

Stop paying the BBC tax. As the Americans once said, "No taxation without representation." We're not being represented, so, why should we pay them.

Frank Owen

Gary O as opposed to the truth suggested by Melanie?

phil

Here we go again -its every time the Islamists go to excess and Israel fights back they are labelled as disproportionate -well what the hell is proportionate ?is it wait till hamas have killed 10 civilians and then kill 10 hamas ?or is it in fact, put a stop to the cause of this horrific continuance of violence against the citizens of a state that wishes to live in peace with its neighbours ?

Gordon Brown got it right so why do we have to hear the ridiculous comments of David Milliband calling it unacceptable loss of life -what is acceptable ? Is it Israeli losses daily from rockets-i do not think he means that so why not clarify exactly what he would do in Britain's defence ? -perhaps the Israelis should invite hamas to tea to inspect the damage .

As usual the BBC was critical both in tone and words of Israel-but what's new?-They reported as one would expect all the demonstrations by the protesters(islamists)without saying a word about those many people who supported Israel,s action -we always see those "dead" Palestinian innocents in a number of different places ,but never the Israelis who have been rocketed for years .Has anyone ever seen these "protesters" ,protesting about Islamist atrocities on our streets -of course not .

-The sum total of all of this is that Israel will and must ignore the criticism and continue to do what is right and moral on behalf of its citizens regardless of the crocodile tears of those that never have and never will come to its aid .The best hope for the innocents in Gaza is the Israelis,who may bring peace to this unfortunate people whose lives are forever blighted by the lunatics who pass for their government .I don't suppose the incited suicide bombers will include any of the hamas elite -what a silly thought !.

Graeme Thompson

Hi Melanie, I dont know about a case for legal action against these rampantly anti-semitic media outlets, but certainly there needs to be a counter-terrorist attack launched against them in Parliament. MPs on the side of civilisation need to call a debate on the issue of the media acting as a propaganda arm for terrorism and a nest of virulent anti-semitism. At the moment I'm between jobs, so I have the time to snail mail this suggestion to the right MPs. Might be a good idea if others do so? Media abettment of terrorist propaganda and granting succour to our enemies is a national security threat that needs to be treated as such.

Ian G

Mordechai, as I suspected, you have only been looking at the liberal end of the Church. These people have the same relationship to orthodox Christianity as liberal self-hating Jews do to Judaism. Stephen Sizer is not an official spokesman for the whole Church. Actually, not even the Pope speaks for the WHOLE Church. There are plent of Evangelicals, and others, in the UK, USA and other parts of the Christian world, who do not take the liberal line. We are not fooled by the Guardianistas who run the MSM. So please, do not take this opportunity to paint all Christians as Jew-haters. It was never true. Sometimes we have been a minority, usually when the majority were kept in ignorance, and sometimes we have had more influence that we do at the moment. Nevertheless, there are Christians who love Israel for the Lord's sake and believe in her right to exist in the Land He gave her - and I am one of them.

JP

It doesn't really change your argument, but the stats in your column and the analysis you link to by Dore Gold seem to clash, you say 6000 rockets, he says 4000, you say 50 per cent increase, he says 500 per cent increase. Just pointing it out.

Sheila

I noticed that after a couple of days Jeremy Bowen suddenly started doing the BBC TV coverage. Did he fly out there early from his Christmas break? He sits in the nerve centre of the BBC's propaganda operation.

The American Thinker website is running regular commentary on the situation that just puts the mainstream media to shame. I have not bought a paper for over a week partly because of Christmas and partly because I don't see why I should pay money for Hamas apologists. Why can't I see writing like that in the American Thinker in my daily paper? There clearly people who are on the ball but aren't allowed by the mainstream media to start telling some home truths:

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/12/as_usual_hamas_hides_behind_ci.html

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/12/egyptians_fire_on_fleeing_gaza.html

Archie

Graeme Thompson: you might wish to put your weight behind Charles Moore's campaign to stop paying the "licence fee" over at The Telegraph. That might do it.

Mark

Blaming the media for the public's not knowing the facts about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is only half right. Granted, there's plenty of pro-Palestinian propagnda out there, but if I and others can learn the truth then anyone with access to the internet can. The problem is that people who, on some level, hate Jews and/or hate Israel don't seek the truth. They're satisfied with information -- regardless how false -- that confirms their erroneous point of view.

elke

Here in Brazil, the word "Desproportionate" was much louder than any other word.

It's hard to see that even our experienced journalists buy this distortion. Are they too committed to the demonization of Israel? I'm afraid yes.

timken

Does it matter a damn that a ragbag grouping of lefties are shrieking and gnashing their teeth? Is Milliband going to send in our troops to fight alongside Hamas?

Of course not.

Israel should ignore the Western rabble and do their duty for their citizens and for civilisation as a whole, and destroy Hamas's ability to spread terror.

stanley Jerusalem

JP [I hope not]
One figure is since Israel pulled out of the strip the other since 2001.
Aren't we clever then?

Franco

Melanie Phillips, YOU are a breath of freash air and a class act I'll have you know. If not for people like you, I (an American) would have little to no faith in the UK.

Frank P

Graeme Thompson

Good suggestion; I shall write to my MP. The bias has now become ludicrous. And they are taking full advantage of the fact that at this time of the year people are just dipping into the news and absorbing it at a very superficial level. Thus the distortion has a profound effect.

paul

"Many more died in Nazi Germany or Japan than in Britain or America during World War Two. Yet the scale of the Allied offensive was necessary to defeat Nazism and prevent yet more carnage amongst its designated victims."

The problem is that Melanie is equating Nazi Germany or Japan with Hamas. This is a proposterous appeal to history and would take more time to deconstruct than I am willing to give.

http://www.criticalthinking.org.uk/unit2/fundamentals/logicalfallacies/appealtohistory/

or I can Invoke Godwin's law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

One final thing for you to think about:

Amongst many confounding factors, what counted towards an allied victory in WW2 was the deliberate and systematic bombing of civilian targets. What irony!

CS

As an aspiring politician, I write to thank you all for your encouragement. Israel is forced to fight the frontline battle on our behalf. We in Europe and the US have two challenges, one is the direct fight with Islamism (as Israel does) and the other is the war on stealth Islamism. It is eroding our media outlets, parliament and hundreds of other cultural/societal organs. We may be in a minority, (would you expect it any other way) but that is because so many are currently asleep or indifferent to the threat of Islamism. Let's help people to wake up! Make sure we're on the radio phone-ins, letter's pages of our newspapers, political programme audiences. We can reclaim the territory. It is not possible to win these arguments by just leaving the work to be done by the same few columnists. I for one, wrote emails to several radio shows yesterday.
Let us encourage one another to get out the message - let's not be a silent minority, but instead a very noisy one! We have the truth on our side - the biggest handicap in someways, but eventually the greatest asset.
And don't worry to much about the Christian repsonse. Christians in underground churches (China/NKorea/Iraq/Iran etc..) know only too well what we are fighting and their numbers are growing at an incredible rate. It's really best not to use lots of Western Christians as a barometer for the Christian voice right now. So many of them have fallen victim to the MSM and establishment viewpoint on all this.
So, if those posters I have read here on this blog can speak and write as eloquently for TV/radio/newspapers then they must use their skills to the max! Please!

logdon

paul
December 29th, 2008 8:36pm
"Many more died in Nazi Germany or Japan than in Britain or America during World War Two. Yet the scale of the Allied offensive was necessary to defeat Nazism and prevent yet more carnage amongst its designated victims."My head has literally exploded from reading such concentrated logically fallacious reasoning.'

Literally exploded? By that idiocy you 'literally explode' all your pseudo intellectual protest of 'concentrated logically fallacious reasoning'. And isn't this a major problem as Paul is not alone in his ignorance (or bias)? There's a whole Bowenballs BBC out there churning out the same old drivel.

Adam B.

`Koestler, thank you, but you haven't answered the question. Israel hasn't dropped 50 nuclear bombs has it? So your point is that this would be disproportionate (a rather extreme example wouldn't you say - and extremes rarely prove a point). War is not theoretical, it is a bloody mess, and it is somewhat ridiculous to talk about philosophical theories with a commander on the ground who has to make a decision in 10 seconds what to do next in a developing situation. The fact is that Israel has shown restraint with Gaza for years. Result: a strong Hamas in power, firing thousands of missiles targeting Israeli civilians (I notice you have no words of criticism for hamas at all, only Israel). Destroying Hamas (or at least weakening it considerably) can only improve the situation.

seb

@ Geoff M

As regrettable as the entire situation is - European leaders appeasing Hitler, centuries of European anti-Semitism, American getting the blame for the results of the previous two - my reaction to the scenes from Gaza were a tiny bit ambiguous. Surely, horribly mutilated people are usually covered in blood and bloodstains are to be seen everywhere on the roads and pavements. Is it true that hundreds of civilians normally spend their time inside Palestinian police stations?

I hope that the authorities, such as they are, in Gaza are not stage-managing fake dead and injured scenes as such cynical manipulation of the media erodes what genuine sympathy is due the cause of the Palestinian people.

logdon

"Egypt refuses Gaza crossing move

Last Updated: Tuesday, 30 December 2008, 09:58 GMT

Egypt has refused to consider full opening of Gaza crossing
Egypt's president has hit back against critics throughout the region and said he would not fully open the crossing into the Gaza Strip unless the Palestinian Authority was in control of the border to preserve unity.

Egypt has come under heavy criticism in the Arab world for its refusal over the past year to open the Rafah crossing, which has helped complete an Israeli blockade of the territory.'

So where is the barracking barrage from the liberal MSM including the BBC on this? Obviously big news in the Middle East but not much of a peep from our lot. Could it be that here it prejudices the prejudiced arguments and over there the Jew hatred is so visceral that even their own are fair game if collaboration is suspected?

Adam B.

JB, where has the "debate" been shut down?

Sharon

At last, someone who says it like it really is. When Israel was being bombed for the last three years from Hamas, where were the news reports then and how come nobody said that Hamas was stopping the peace process but when Israel has had enough and retaliates, after day one the world broadcasts it naming Israel as the one stopping peace and is seen as the Aggressor. But then after all when Israel is bombed, its only Jews that are suffering so nobody bothers!!

simone bacchini

A timely article, thank you Melanie.
The person who wrote that the fact that public opinion is gennerally against-Israel is not surprising, given the overwhelmingly negative media coverage, is spot on. But words can be powerful in many ways: I can still remember, years ago, holding similar negative views about Israel and my mind being changed over time by the careful reading of articles such as Melanie's.
Israel is of course not a perfect country, but it most certainly isn't the villain that most Western media shamefully depict. I am not a Jew and have no personal Israeli acquaintances, but I stand by that country, its brave people and the beacon of light they represent.
I was appalled to read Mr. Milliband's comments: a schoolboy as foreign secretary!
Is there any way of organizing a pro-Israel demo? The voices of decency must be heard and I would be proud to take part like I was to join the parade to celebrate Israel's birthday last summer in London.

Louise

Being at home yesterday, I spent much time channel-hopping betwen TV news broadcasts. The BBC was appalling. Jeremy Bowen slants his reports in favour of the Palestinians, reiterates that there have been few casualties among the Israelis, and nay-says whatever the Israeli government says with his own commentary. In stark contrast, the Sky reportage was a model of objectivity, and pains were taken to show the Israeli side of the argument as well as much footage of Israeli soldiers preparing for a possible ground assault, footage of Israelis under rocket attack, and also interviews with Israeli soldiers and civilians. Even Al-Jazeera was more even-handed than the BBC. On the weekend the wonderful Mark Regev from the Israeli PM's Office made mincemeat of Peter Sissons, the BBC news anchor who was almost haranguing him. At least in Regev Israel has a spokeman worthy of the name, a personable man who can connect with an English-speaking audience ujnlike some of the representatives ISRAEL HAS had in the past, people who can hardly speak English and are no match for Hanan Ashrawi.

mark

An American- thanks for your post.
The first thing I would say is that the Muslim vote makes up a very small proportion of most western democracies, therefore we shouldn't think of this in such simplistic terms as leaders cowing to a section of their electorate. Reasonable people can disagree about the current action in Gaza without ascribing bad intentions and motives to their opponents.
.
So, given that we can quite easily distinguish between Jews, Israelis and Israel, surely we can also distinguish between Muslims, Palestinians and Hamas?
.
Therefore, surely all Palestinians should not be held responsible for the actions of Hamas. Yes, Hamas received 44.5% of votes in the election, but are you really suggesting that voters support (and are responsible for) every action of their resulting government? If so, are all Americans responsible for Abu Ghraib? No, because it was carried out by a few soldiers acting on their own initiative. Are all Britons responsible for Britain's role in Iraq? No - the protest against the war was the biggest ever in the UK.
.
The question then comes as to how you deal with Hamas. I'd like to roughly sketch out the following argument:
1) The Israeli action in Gaza has been disproportionate. Attacking people on busy streets at 11:30 on a Saturday morning is not precision assassination.
2) Police officers are not terrorists or militants. They are defined by international law as civilians (if Melanie wants to go down the route of citing international law, that's fine). Further, it is preferable that there is some kind of order in Gaza than that there is total anarchy.
3) Israel will not defeat Hamas by force, just as they did not defeat Hezbollah in Lebanon in June 2006. Sure, they may have killed a lot of terrorists and followers of those organisations, but they will not defeat the organisation itself. In actual fact, this is likely to cause far more Palestinians to join them. Even if you disagree with my point 1) , you cannot argue that the perception (right or wrong) of disproportionality is there.
4) Ultimately, the only resolution of this 60 year-old conflict will be through peaceful means. People from both sides will have to sit down and make painful compromises.
5) Painting things in Manichean terms (Israel good, Palestinians bad) will not get us anywhere. It will make compromise impossible, because after all, if one side is absolutely good and the other side absolutely evil, how can compromise

be justified?
6) Both sides have been bad. Hamas should not be firing rockets at Israeli civilians, and they must stop or be stopped in this respect (again, there's a question as to how you should go about that).
7) Israel should know better, and our expectations of it should be higher than those of a bunch of terrorists. It is an advanced, powerful, economically developed and well-educated liberal democracy. It should be much more careful about civilian casualties. Bombing universities (of whatever hue) and pharmacies, even if by accident, is unacceptable. In the long run, its current actions in Gaza will only entrench opinion around Hamas (Hamas was not very popular in Gaza, but people are coming together against a common enemy) and make peace more difficult to achieve.
.
So, what do you think.

phil

Koestler-according to your reference of "just war" do you think 60 years of a state being under attack is sufficient for them to believe they are involved in a just war?.---------

The Just War Theory was asserted as an authoritative Catholic Church teaching by the United States Catholic Bishops in their pastoral letter, The Challenge of Peace: God's Promise and Our Response, issued in 1983. More recently, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in paragraph 2309, lists four strict conditions for "legitimate defence by military force": ----have you actually read them ? you can find them in wikipedia,under just war -------------------

I doubt that even one supporter of Israel would want to go to war with any nation but after 60 years of trying to make peace, and having achieved that peace with those states willing to do so,have you any serious suggestions of what you would do in their place ?-and please if you have ,make them pragmatic.Both Israel and Jews the world over would be forever grateful to hear your workable solution providing it does not mean them behaving like lemmings .

Bob Latchford

Hamas "rockets" fired into Israel killed 8 people in 20 years before the start of this latest wave of Israeli aggression. Israel killed 250 in more than 24 hours

Just soak those figures up

An American

Bob Latchford.
Why is it so hard to get this through thick heads like yours?
Israel is fighting for its very existence...if they don't fight back...ALL Israelis will be killed and their country destroyed.
Freedom means sacrifice of lives..hopefully the enemys. Its sad when innocent Palestinians die but do you really think that Hamas cares anything about their own people..they care only about killing Jews.

phil

Mark can I tell you what I think -I think you are trying to be reasonable ! --nevertheless some of your facts are wrong ab initio -Israel did not attack innocent people on the streets ,they attacked hamas -many of the police were hamas even if some were not just as all sausages are not pork .The university was partly a bomb factory and the weapons were hid amongst the innocent civilians-do I really need to continue ?---
- I dealt with proportionality in an earlier post as I did with peaceful means -One thing I agree with is that we do expect the best from Israel and mostly I believe we have seen it ,they are not perfect ,but they try very hard ,.sadly they are not infallible .

You suggest we should distinguish between hamas and Palestinians -I do and I have Palestinian and Lebanese friends ,we weep together for what has been lost ,but they are sensible and have left ,sickened by what has become of their homelands .You need to realise that Israelis yearn to live in peace with their neighbours ,but reciprocation is just not there --

.If this sounds patronising I apologise ,its not meant to be ,but I have lived with this history from a small boy .too long ago and sadly I know a lot ,from the desperate fight for survival in 48 to 56 ,the 67 war then 73 ,all the problems in Lebanon each time caused by the Arabs

60 years is enough as the Israelis have said this week ,it is enough not only for the Israelis but for the West itself -I could say that we are next but that would be too late its happening now .The Islamists keep telling us we are at war with them ,why cant we believe them -I well understand the frustration Churchill must have felt 70 years ago .it took until Czechoslovakia then Austria and ultimately Poland fell before it sunk in that you should believe what the evil ones say .In case you think I mean all Muslims or Palestinians should be included in this -I DO NOT -they are the victims too as we can see now .,.----
,I hope and pray for peace and justice for both sides every day and that has been for a long time ,and I have even bought the lottery ticket ,,but as you can see I am not winning .

Adam B.

Latchford, why do you write rockets in quotation marks? If one landed on your house, you'd know it. The recent Grad missiles are even more deadly, with high explosive coming from Iran. Figures prove nothing really - the rocket barrages, whilst killing relatively few (and you may feel differently if it was your loved ones) make life utterly intolerable for many thousands of Israelis. Your argument seems to be that not enough Israelis have been killed to warrant a reaction. Imagine if 6000 rockets landed on Kent, meaning that the people of Kent had to spend hours every day in shelters, live with the fear of indiscriminate rocket attacks daily, with most children suffering from post traumatic stress, and just "soaking it up" as you so eloquently put it. At what point is it justified in your mind for Israel to react? Israel not only has a right to act, it has the moral duty to its citizens to act. And why not a single word of condemnation for the racist, genocide inciting regime of Hamas? Are they beyond reproach for people like you?

Vision Aforethought

1) M's last point echoes something I actually said in an email to her once. Is the media complicit? (At the time, she was not so sure, but I appear to have won over. Good stuff.) 2) With our media in general an order of magnitude dumbed down since the 1950s, 60s, 70s and 80s, it is it no wonder people today (of any nationality or faith) are unable to form a common sense and/or honest appraisal of any given situation? (I'm reading that celeb Big Brother is to return - remember folks, some of the viewers/stars of such programming are on the streets of Kensington or working at newspapers!) 3) While we may all draw comfort from M's spot on analysis, is anyone who influences policy reading it? Will we all just fade away while reading and commenting on blogs? What can be done to turn around the propaganda machine beyond a very well written and designed web site that lays down the facts and makes lots of common sense points. (Anyone?) To be slightly optimistic, I think Israel is managing a lot better this time from the propaganda angle - as can be seen in some of the comments made by readers of the national media. I addition, there is a very enlightening piece in today's Independent by Mary Dejevsky entitled 'Don't overlook Israel's vulnerability. One of her first comments is something I say to all those who don't speak kindly of the country, "Have you been there?"

Adam B.

Mark
1. Israel attacked at 11.30 for a very specific reason, they don't just attack randomly. 80 Hamas terrorists were killed in one fell swoop at a terrorism "graduation" ceremony at that time, without ANY civilian casualties. Not a coincidence.
2. Hamas "police" are indeed terrorists - they are armed with AK47's, and enforce Hamas' absolute rule. Indeed, they act as a military wing for this fascist organization. They aren't like a good old bobby with a truncheon!
3. Israel may or may not completely defeat Hamas by force, neither you nor I know the exact answer to that yet. However, a significantly weakened Hamas, with a whole echelon of its leadership removed, will be unable to operate as effectively as it has. Remember, Hamas initiated hostilites, not Israel.
4. You are right, ultimately the only resolution of the conflict will be through peaceful means. Unfortunately, that will be inpossible as long as Hamas exists, for this very reason: Hamas exists to destroy Israel, that is its raison d'etre. In its charter, it advocates the extermination of every living Jew (not just in Israel). It is a rejectionist movement, intent on imposing Islam on all non Islamic nations. Destroying Hamas brings peace a step closer, not further away.
5. Compromise is not possible with a movement which is intent on destroying you.
6. How would you go about stopping Hamas' interminable rocket attacks? Suggestions (that would actually work)?
7. Why should Israel "know better"? Is your opinion of Arab people so low that you accept the behaviour of Hamas, but expect Jews to be whiter than white? Isn't that racist? Also, the Islamic "University" of Gaza is not like a University you or I would recognize. It is in fact a weapons cache and terrorist training centre. Welcome to higher learning, Hamas style. Please expunge an image of free debates and academic research, it doesn't work like that in Hamas' Gaza.

paul d hill

Bob Latchford;can you give me a source for those figures please?

Don't worry (-I think they are broadly correct but want some verification)

Ronnie

Thanks Bob, that's alright then. Are you saying that if Hamas killed no-one in Israel with their rockets they could carry on lobbing them indiscriminately until the end of time? After all, they are just fireworks aren't they, not pieces of field artillery. And those few Israelis who have been killed are irrelevant in the convenient world of statistics.

These people are being constantly shelled Bob, it doesn't matter a shit who they are or what your political position is. It is utterly unacceptable.

Its absolutely clear that Hamas have no interest in peace whatsoever. Neither in any idea of peace between themselves and Israel or in the success of the talks that were ongoing between Syria and Israel, mediated by Turkey and aimed at Syrian repossession of the Golan Heights.

Hamas used the ceasefire to restock their weapons. They made no effort to extend the ceasefire and instead resumed their bombardment of Israel for its own sake and to derail the talks between Syria and Israel, probably at Iran's behest.

I'm afraid that this cycle of behaviour on the part of Hamas will not stop until somebody stops it and we know whose job that is.

Is there anyone on earth who would endure rockets being fired on their territory and citizens for any amount of time? Is there anyone who is genuinely, and I mean genuinely, shocked by Israel's response? What would the rest of us do? Why do so many people always want to fall into the trap of accepting a propaganda exercise set up by Hamas, Bob? You can open your mind a bit and still boycott the fruit, if you think that helps.

Hamas has been elected by the people in Gaza to govern the territory. One of the first responsibilities of a government is to protect its citizens. That's what Israel is doing now but it is certainly not what Hamas does by continually provoking its more powerful neighbour into a predictable military response in the interests of a grotesque and lethal publicity.

Hamas have forfeited the right to govern. They are a danger to their own people even more than to their neighbours.

I repeat, its time that this cycle was stopped and as Hamas are not interested in a peaceful solution then that leaves us with only one alternative.

As for David Milliband, he is a disgrace and should be sacked. His job is to help find a way through this, not join others in yelling from the cheap seats.

Gil

Bob Latchford, those Hamas rockets are very real and deadly. Your attempt to wind people up by calling them "rockets" won't do. What about the disruption of normal life in the areas rocketed by Hamas? Also, is this war a competition about who can kill more people?

Ed

Amnesty International HAS condemned Hamas for preventing the injured from reaching Egypt. It's in the number 1 article on their website at present.

Ina Lotas

Simone Bacchinni, it is miracle a while ago you change your view about Israel, and I hope many people fellow your foot steps and do the same,

it is little bit difficult because we have so much narrow minded, ignorant people in the west, and there are also some Jewish people specially younger generations who don't respect there culture and they don't stand up for Jewish people's rights, and the others are the ones who believe the garbage they heard from the media, in the pub or their friends so the way they see other countries in the world is not correct,
God knows, one day the true will come out, that Israels are good innocent, hard working people.

Augustus

Didn't the Prime Minister of Israel warn Hamas and say, "You must stop, otherwise we will take measures in response"? But just before the arrival of Israeli Foreign Minister Livni in Egypt for talks, Hamas fired off 60 rockets.

The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is not a morally equal conflict. The Palestinians want a state of their own, not together with, or alongside, the state of Israel, but alone without the existence of Israel. Their aim is the annihilation of the state of Israel. They are, and always were, the agressors. Israel has been absorbing the rocket attacks, which until now have not been particularly accurate and have been launched by not particularly
'professional' artillarymen. But in the end patience becomes exhausted and Israel fights back, whereupon the media makes it big news, with Israel as the agressor.

Until now Israel has been fighting this conflict on Palestinian terms. Terrorist attacks were met with proportional force. Terms by which Israel would limit civilian casualties as much as possible. While Hamas's aim was always to kill as many civilians as they could, even placing their rocket launchers in residential areas. The dogma of proportionality prevented Israel from utilizing its full capabilities and crush the Palestinians totally. A war with only proportional force is a war which the Palestinians can
keep up indefinitely. In a war with disproportionate force, the Palestinians would lose very quickly. If in such a war Palestinian innocents were to be killed, the moral blame would rest with the party who not only started the conflict, but also misuses its own population as a protective shield for its own political ends.

Expat Brit

Thank you Melanie for this excellent article. And thank you Israel for standing on the front line for the West - even if our politicians won't acknowledge it.

Koestler

phil - yes of course I have (as well as (unlike you I suspect) Suarez, Augustine, Aquinas, Grotius etc. etc. and no - if you read the strict criteria (including proportionality in relation to an otherwise legitimate end with good prosepct of success) you will find that this does not qualify as a just war (and, surprise, surprise, the moral theoogians of the Vatican agree with me and not you!). Moreover IDF commanders explicitly reject just war theory in any case so you are defending their actions on grounds they apparently do not think ar morally obligatory. As to the point to Adam B. - I was using an "extreme" example to prove a point re. the legitimacy of using the term proportionate at all (which is standardly used by the police re. proportionate force etc.). Perfectly legitimate move in philosophical arguemnt - sorry you don't know that yet. (btw our US poster is all in favour of atom bombs - so not so extreme then). Also, even an IDF commander needs moral principles to work with, lest he be as barabaric as he says his opponents are (and isn't one reason we call Hamas barbaric because they don't adhere to JWT?). Shame his own government, and not a few rabbinic councils, reject just war theory then.

Elle Kadima

Well said Melanie! I am saddened at the way the conflict is being reported, especially by the dear old BBC. The rabble-rousing outside the Israeli embassy is having an effect on wider British society. Last night Jewish areas of London, including places of worship, were sprayed with pro-Jihad graffiti - not a word of that in the news!

Leslie

Bob Latchford:
"Hamas "rockets" fired into Israel killed 8 people in 20 years before the start of this latest wave of Israeli aggression. Israel killed 250 in more than 24 hours

Just soak those figures up"

If you got that from The Guardian,Bob,it should read "20 killed in 8 years"

But let's not split hairs.
After all,Hamas is only firing friendly little "rockets"into Israel to say "Thank you" for giving them Gaza,right?
How ungrateful those Israelis are,to be sure!

paul

Bob
You are wrong in your estimations of the numnber of people killed by the rockets fired from Gaza: around 20 have died in rocket attacks in 8 years.

In that time Israel has killed 5000 in the occupied territories.

Adam:
"Your argument seems to be that not enough Israelis have been killed to warrant a reaction. Imagine if 6000 rockets landed on Kent, meaning that the people of Kent had to spend hours every day in shelters, live with the fear of indiscriminate rocket attacks daily, with most children suffering from post traumatic stress, and just "soaking it up" as you so eloquently put it"

That's just one big, fat, strawman.

Straydingo

Bob,

The problem I have with such posting as yours is that they are completely hollow...there is no substance; no actual weight to what it is you are trying to say.

By using words such as “Disproportionate” and quoting the death tally like this is some game of cricket in which deaths represent runs and the morally just are the ones to have lost the most lives is simply....well bonkers.

Can you verify the death toll is actually as high is being quoted?

Have you been into Gaza and counted the bodies?

How many of these deaths are Hamas terrorists...sorry Fighters or Militants?

Who are your sources....Hamas?

Can you tell me how is it that the whole of the world’s MSM is able to line up out the front of a hospital so they can capture images of “Wounded” civilians in the middle of a war zone? Did this not strike you as a PR stunt?

If Hamas is so committed to the peace process why did it not engage in the process of renewing the cease fire?

Why has Hamas continually fired rockets into Israel 3 years after they left the Gaza strip?

I would welcome you or anyone else to help me understand your views on the above and to illuminate my mind by shining some new light into an area I have not considered.

I think I am safe in saying that the majority of us here that share the same views as Melanie are open to an educated debate....I certainly do not think I have all the answers nor am I so stupid to think that Israel is a perfect state.

Any fool can throw down an opinion...but to provide an informed one requires effort in investing time in researching the topic in question whilst trying to maintain objectivity and being humble enough to accept ones opinion may be wrong vs. Watching 30 second sound bites of talking heads on the BBC etc.

Andy

Israel should NEVER have given Gaza over , and should asap take it back. God will judge anyone who wants to divide up the land of Israel and that includes Israel herself.

Adam B.

paul,

How many Israelis have been killed/ You neglect to mention that little piece of information. And what about context, or doesn't that exist either?

Strawman you say - why? Please elucidate.

YA

"paul" and "bob latchford" - to your frusration - self defence of West represented by Israel is on very high level. Your "inosent pipal'" have been preparing missile production lines, fighters, bunkers, tunnels, command centers, mortar and machine gun positions, ammo stores, booby traps and so on, spent hundreds of millions of Iranian and EU money and years of workforce.
Israel turned all that to dust in two days.
See what comes next.
There should be ultimatum and request to lay down all illegal weapons, especially those supplied and smuggled into Gaza by Iran.
Declaring Gaza closed military zone, giving civilians 48 hours to leave.
Demarcation of humanitarian corridors and weapons collection points.
Then, according to circumstances. No ceasefire, but complete capitulation of hamas.
Iran is next.

An American

Wonder if Bob and Adam understand now...

Ronnie and Augustus...great comments.

davidrev

Soon after the bombing of Gaza began I saw a UK Sky News report describing an Israeli killed by a Hamas rocket as being killed in "retaliation" for Israeli attacks. Hamas must have great foresight, because they have been retaliating for this week's attack for many years.

Frank P

When are the techies going to sort out the alignment of the text in the commentary on this blog. It is erratic, unprofessional and downright sloppy. I note that it doesn't occur on other Spectator blogs, so why should it happen here? Hmmnn.

As Spike Jones would have said, "It's urritatin' ... urritatin'!

mark

Adam B:
1&2: Yeah again I guess it depends how you define civilians, I would say that police officers are indeed civilians. I think that bombing a police graduation ceremony is therefore wrong.
.
3. Yes, it can be said with near certainty that military operations will not defeat Hamas, just as they did not defeat Hezbollah, or the IRA, or ETA, or pretty much any other well-established terrorist organisation in the world. You're right that for a time, Hamas' ability to operate so efficiently will be reduced. But in the long run, it is reasonable to assume that they will only recruit more young disillusioned Palestinians to this organisation. And the blame game of who started the present hostilities is rather futile, because you can always look back and further back still. It could quite reasonably be argued that Israel's continued occupation (it may have 'pulled out', but the blockade has continued, so it's still defined in international law as occupation) of the Gaza Strip and restrictions on even essential humanitarian aid (including medicine) are themselves a very hostile act. In fact I'd say they are certainly comparable in scale to Hamas blindly firing missiles into Israel; the targets in both cases are ultimately innocent civilians. But what is really important is what is going on now, and how best to prevent further bloodshed.
.
4. Hamas will always exist in one form or another. Strong rejectionist movements exist on both sides (Islamic Jihad is an even stronger example than Hamas; religious Israeli settlers in Hebron are another example - as is Andy in the comments just above) and always will do. Look at the CIRA or comparable loyalist elements in Northern Ireland.
.
5. Why?
.
6. A peaceful and final settlement of this issue, preferably involving a two-state solution.
.
7. Er, what? I think most intelligent people on here understand my comment has nothing to do with their religion or ethnicity.
.
We have higher expectations for certain countries than others. For example, we expect that there will be a higher respect for human rights and the rule of law in countries like the United States or France (say) than in countries like Moldova or Colombia (say). (Or in Ghana than in Chad, or in India than in Bangladesh.)
.
This is based on the fact that the former have well-established governing institutions and civil society which should regulate and check the actions of their governments. The latter are much less developed and so we expect there to be more problems there.
.
In the same way, Israel is a modern, well-established, well-educated, economically, culturally and socially developed liberal democracy with institutions (governmental and non-governmental) which should act as a check on the government's behaviour. Palestine has hardly any such institutions to speak of (and Gaza certainly has none now), and it's hardly at all developed in all the areas I just outlined.
.
Plus, I don't get this insistence by so many people on here that the 370-odd dead bodies are simply made up for PR purposes. I find it quite difficult to accept that people actually believe that.

Sergey

For me any action of civilized people against barbarians is a just war. Those who written genocide into their charter have no right to complain about genocide. If the choice is between genocide of civilized people and that of barbaric people, I prefer the latter.

Colin

To all intents and purposes Israel still controls Gaza. Until they stop this I cannot see there being peace any time soon.

Tommy

highlights of the Hamas Covenant or Charter,

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

The protocols of the elders of zion--- where do these people get this stuff-- of course in their "Alice in Wonderland world" they believe stuff like this and will kill for it

Not much wiggle room here for Israel,but no doubt our western analysts and media will say that hamas doesn't really mean it

D Gray

Israel could be invaded from all sides and a million dead Jews strewn across the streets and the BBC would spin it as Israels fault.You see,in the world of the socially engineered politically correct liberal Israel is a demon who is to be blamed for everything.The constant biased reporting is nothig new...its totally expected with every passing day,we will never be given a truly un-biased report because this is not convenient.Its not a problem for me because I know Hamas are terrorist murderers who would line up every man,women,child and baby in Israel and blow them away.No,the problem is the damage it does to people who dont dig deaper then the lies they are sold.When I go into to college and the subject of 'palestine' comes up....the undiluted hatred for Israel that comes out of the students mouths is more than worrying.The BBC does its work well.

Adam B.

Colin, there was no peace before Israel went into Gaza in 1967. How do you explain that?

This is nothing to do with "occupation" and everything to do with the Arab world's urge to kill the Jews.

paul

"Strawman you say - why? Please elucidate."

Bob was making a point about the unequal numbers of casualties on each side. You Took this argument and distorted it into some bizarre scenario where the children of Kent were meant to 'soak up' a barage of rocket attacks.

Actually Adam, I'm in the mood for a bit of Deconstructionism. So lets go!

Tell me Adam, what has the county of Kent got in common with the nuclear power of Israel? Feel free to discuss population demographics, military capabilities etc.
What land has the county of Kent illegally occupied?
In your analogy, who and from where would these rockets be fired?
In your analogy, what reasons would this enemy of Kent give for it's rocket attacks?
Has the county of Kent ever launched unilateral strikes against other counties, or indeed, countries?
What response, militarily, would you anticipate Kent to make in your scenario? Where would you see Kent targeting? Can you see potential problems with the British Government if Kent the County began bombing the surrounding countryside inflicting hundreds of casualties?
What would you anticipate the British Goverments response to Kent's action might be?

The point I'm trying to make, Adam, is that your analogy is meaningless and intellectually barren and certainly does not help to advance this discussion.

phil

Koestler you are living in your own philosophical world where punches on the nose do not hurt -you need to get outside into the real world .You continue to post references to all those who have never fought or been attacked ,in fact live in ivory towers ---

.Find a little realism ,go to a boxing match and see if each boxer waits to be punched after landing a blow ,lest he should be seen as lacking in proportionality -I think you truly think the Messiah is coming and the meek will inherit the earth-somehopes !--------Of all the posts here on both sides of the problem yours are the most outlandish,perhaps when we eventually populate Mars you can try to put in a new system ,meanwhile you need to understand the one we live with here .

paul

well said Mark

clive

Superb piece. Writing of the highest order

Getting back to Jeremy Bowen, his coverage earlier in the week was a disgrace. I find the undercurrent to his reporting sinister

Interestingly the BBC, on R4's PM programme, did give 20 minutes of excellent coverage to the whole affair yesterday lunhctime. Was balanced and thoughtful. Someone was missing though.... Guess who?

Adam B.

Mark

1 and 2. The Hamas police are part of their military wing, whose avowed intention is to exterminate the Jews.
3. Are you a clairvoyant? Many would argue that the IRA was indeed fought toa standstill.
4. Your moral equivalency between Hamas and Israeli settlers is disgusting.
5. Because there's nothing to talk about, other than how to bring about your own demise.
6. Great. How do we do that?
7. it's called double standards Mark.

Colin

Tommy, can we have a few Israeli quotes too please. Just in the interests of balance you understand.

phil

Mark is there some sort of weird game going on here "an American " did not answer you ,but I did ,and now you do not address my points -we normally try to adhere to a form of net etiquette here ,am I missing something ,perhaps I was too polite .

Frank P

I posted the following comment at 1.50am approximately today but for some reason it did not pass through the mediation process. As I am anxious to offer support for Melanie's excellent essay, which she interrupted her well earned holiday to compose, I'll try again:

>Hamas and its backers in the Middle East exploit the latent residual anti-Semitism that pervades Western democracies. It seems the holocaust taught us nothing.

Those engaged in Islamic Jihad intend, if fact quite openly state that they intend, to re-establish the Caliphate - to destroy or neutralise other religions, either by force or by infiltration and subversion.

Israel is therefore being crushed between the overt military assault of Iran and its puppets - and the hypocrisy of the West and the oft-naked hostility of the propaganda of a very large majority of Western media entities.

Israel will prevail, but those of us who are not Jewish who have supported Melanie's blog campaigning for many years must do more to make our voices heard, not simply because Israel is a vulnerable ally, but also for very practical reasons of self interest.

Israel is on the front line of a war that the Muslim world is waging against Western civilisation. It is therefore 'our' war. The only way to win a war is defeat the enemy, destroy its military capability and the economy that feeds that capability. It must be all-out war and it must be waged until the enemy sues for peace. Peace can only be achieved through forced capitulation of the enemy - unconditional surrender or annihilation. Though diplomacy has its uses, it does not win wars. The West stopped short of total war in both Iraq campaigns – we are still paying the price for squeamishness and a desire for rapid ‘victory’ before the enemy submitted.

That is the harsh reality of current geopolitical existence. Palestine is to the Islamic world, a useful idiot. As the neo-Marxist movement uses minority grievances for its nefarious ends, so the Mullahs use the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to weaken the West.
We are in the midst of the Fourth World War of modern times; moreover it is by no means certain that we won the Third World War (the Cold War); recent signs indicate that the fall of the Iron Curtain was a mere ploy in the Long March – a strategic retreat in order to regroup and employ a more nuanced movement. It seems that the some of the forces behind the Left in the Third World War have now merged with some strands of Islamism both external and internal intent on subverting the West in a marriage of convenience; now our battered culture and heritage are in dire danger of annihilation. Why are the useful idiots who occasionally buzz this blog with their inane pro-Leftist, pro-Muslim bunkum prattling on about proportionality again? Well we can guess, can’t we? They are either part of the neo-Marxist movement, or sympathetic to the resurgence of Islamism, so obviously any retaliation whatsoever to the bombardment by munitions and propaganda of their comrades is disproportionate as far as they are concerned. The problem is that, though they are outnumbered on this blog, they have powerful allies within counter-culture enclaves of the mainstream media.

What is the Conservative Party response to all this? So far – silence! Perhaps those from the Spectator who have contact with David Cameron and his top cadre of Cameroons could give us a clue about their intentions if and when they take power, as unlike those of Islamic jihad, they are by no means explicit, if indeed they have even yet been formulated.

phil

Koestler -you were correct .I had not read the people you referred to,and it has taken some time to find them -the first one passed away in AD430-the next AD1274,and the last that I could trace was AD1674-I have to say I do not think the Islamists are paying them much attention -perhaps you should read generals Patton or Montgomery even Eisenhower ,all of whom are a little nearer to reality .

phil

Frank P-I have criticised you many times in the past but I must compliment you on your last post which was to the point and excellently put -well done -as was that by D Gray -I wish you both A HAPPIER AND MORE PEACEFUL NEW YEAR .

Koestler

phil
You quoted froma Catechism the foundations of which are (among other things) the thinkers I mentioned and which is more contemporary than the generals. Now you seem to have abandoned that approach (because it doesn't suit you) you opt for Eisenhower and others. Just as doctors are no medical ethicists, generals are not moral philosophers. While their practical experience etc. should inform debate, it was never generals who developed just war theory. Both he IDF and Hamas (and the US in Japan) have abandoned this doctrine. In doing so they have become barbarians - and we should never defend barbarism (no matter how "realistic" you think their "moral philosophy" (or lack thereof) is). I do tend to listen to scholarly saints more than generals that can justify nuclear strikes, but then I'm a bit old-fashioned that way (i.e. civilised). Happy New Year though - and we can all pray for a just peace.

Koeslter

phil
Why, if you believe my posts outlandish - do you refer to the Catechism!!! I am heartily sick ofd "realists" who basically tell people to forget about morality (unless to use in order to condemn Israel's opponents) because there's a war to be fought. Just war principles were crafted in times of war and by people who knew of and in some cases had fought in wars. They are our moral patrimony. Israel (and many other countries) has wholesale rejected them. In doing so they, like Hamas (though in difeerent ways) reveal their barbarism. It is a great sadness for me that this is the case. But it is. Careful too - sooner or later even your (minimal) moral framework will be deemed "outlandish" by a bully in a hurry - and he'll tell you go to a gladitorial contest and learn something and stop condemning child-killing or something.

phil

Koeslter(copied) you are definitely losing it -if you cannot tell the difference between legitimate defence of ones citizens and barbarism ,what is left for us to debate ---------
-You speak as if you represent your religion and in turn our own fundamentalists deign to speak for us -neither represent the majority view of those with compassion and care for all human beings be they Catholic ,Protestant ,Jewish or Muslim-I do not want thrust down my throat your personal interpretation of religious ethics which take no account of reality .You may continue to live in an age long since past,consoling yourself with the dreams of those that fought with sticks and stones.please allow me to live in today's world ,you know the one with suicide bombers and rockets for civilians,one that massacres athletes at the Olympics, living under a charter that calls for a peaceful nations annihilation .I believe you mean well but you are living in another world .

Let me make it plain for you .Jewish people whether Israelis or not want peace and justice for all but we will never again stand quietly by whilst those that want to massacre us get on with their unholy job -Israel is defending its citizens as it has had to do for more than 60 years and will not wait for people with your ideas to defend us .If that is what you call barbarism ,so be it .

An American

Its interesting reading Phil and Koeslter's give and take.

It seems there are two very different sides of an important arguement here.

One... is realistic. If good and a nation's freedom is to survive and an attacker defeated, you must fight back with everything you have.

Two... is people who believe if they get down to the level of their attackers by fighting them, they lose their humanity. It seems they would perfer to lose their freedom and their country but feel that their moral compass is still intact.

They are both right but at odds. You need to be a realist if you are to survive. Anyone who has fought a war or knows someone who has, knows that you lose some of your humanity. I suspect that's why so many soldiers won't talk about the wars they've fought. Although they're considered heros by the people they've protected...they know the ugly side of war and that their actions will be something they will have to live with until their last breath. The more moral a person... the more war shatters them.

That's why I respect soldiers so much. They put more than their lives on the line to protect their fellow countrymen.

Israel must fight back if it is to survive. They are not dealing with people who have the same moral compass.

Adam B.

Colin, why don't you provide them? Or are you, as I suspect, completely ignorant but like to attack Israel anyway?

phil

I wish a happy new year to everyone who does not come here with hate even if they do not agree with me.

Adam B.

Paul, OK, I’ll make this really simple for you.

Firstly, the analogy is not between Kent and Israel, it is between Kent and the towns of southern Israel. This renders the rest of your silly post incoherent nonsense. Israel may be a nuclear power, so is the UK, so what’s your point? Incidentally, Israel has not illegally occupied any land either. If youy read Melanie’s previous posts, you would know that.

Secondly, it has nothing to do with demopgraphics etc. You’ve completely and wilfully missed the point, which is this:

Would the UK accept that one part of the country is relentlessly bombed and rocketed (with 6000 rockets) without responding? No it would not. Would it accept 10% of its population needing to run to air raid shelters several times a day without responding? No, it would not. Should it accept such a situation without responding? No it should not.

Seems your only problem is that Israel refuses to lay down and die for your pleasure. Sorry to disappoint you.

An American

To celebrate the Christmas season...Hamas and Iran have decreed that infidels can be crucified. It will take a longer time for the victims to suffer than merely cutting off their heads.

Interesting... that this news is just getting out. Did the leftist media ignore this news to protect their Islamic friends or to protect Christian feelings in this most holy season?

That should tell everyone where our news media stands in today's world.

To all the people who blog here...Wishes for a very Happy New Year.

Alexandrovich

Koestler: in a nutshell then, you're a conscientious objector.

Best to stop torturing yourself, handwringing on the sidelines - you're in the way.

It doesn't strike you that your mealy-mouthed lectures about morals will do nothing to stop this conflict?

The Israelis have a job to do and I for one hope that, this time, they complete it.

Now that's life affirmation.

That

Ted Crilley

Well said Frank P. Happy New Year to you and to all the contributors on this site who make it so compelling.

Lyndon Larouche

Well done Israel and Melanie! If Britain had responded similarily to the IRA attacks over the years by going after the Catholic areas of Belfast then that conflict would have ended much earlier.

Koestler

Oh dear. I have merely reiterated standard just war theory (which doesn't rely on religious presuppositions - but you don't even know that). But you seem to be unaware of that (yet have the chutzpah to quote a catechism!). Conscientious objector - well we are bound to follow our conscience - and the conscience must be informed by sound moral reasoning - so yes (and rejection of the just war tradition has, for centuries, been regarded as barbarism.\I find it incredible how ignorant warmongers are when it comes to the central moral disputes at stake - doesn't stop them though. Do not mistake conscientious objectors with pacifists. Alexandrovich eloquently makes the case for ceasing to think morally - Hamas will be pleased with him. Torturers, war rapists etc., nuclear bombers also have jobs to do in war - best not stand up to them then with woosy moral arguments.

Brian Moshe

Frank P. - thank you for a highly incisive post which summarises the essence of the problems facing the Western world.

The Marxist Left's self-defeating support for the growth of Islam can unfortunately be traced back to the communist bloc's support for fascist-Baathist Arab regimes that bought Soviet and other communist bloc arms from the 1950s onwards and were recipients of communist aid - thus magically transforming them into 'progressive' regimes in communist propaganda. There was also the Soviet and Chinese support for colonial liberation struggles, which after June 1967 meant the Marxist Left in the West increasingly saw the PLO as such a movement (along with the other similar groups).

I seem to recall from things I've read, BTW, that William Hague, a close associate of David Cameron, has no grasp of the threats facing Israel. Perhaps someone can enlighten us on this score, and as Frank P. asks, does anyone know what David Cameron's position is? It would be a tragedy if he merely parrots the pathetic Miliband.

Currently in the USA, I can't quite keep up with London-based media coverage, but wonder why it is that we hear so little from 'Labour Friends of Israel' - the Parliamentary Labour Party's Israel support group? I believe the Conservative Party also has such a group.

May I wish Melanie and all those who have contributed so much of interest since Melanie started her blog: 'A very happy secular new year'.

An American

Frank P
Great comments...you gave us a lot to think about. I've read it twice...thanks for persevering.

paul

"Firstly, the analogy is not between Kent and Israel, it is between Kent and the towns of southern Israel."

Either way, your analogy is still logically incoherent; one really has to wonder if you're trying to get a rise out of me.

Please clarify:
Who and from where are these rockets being fired from?
What neighbouring country is the UK illegally occupying?
What country on the UK's border is the government imposing crippling economic blockades?
In what neighbouring country has the UK killed more than 5000 over the past 10 years?
What country on the UK's border does the UK currently have a long and bitter terratorial dispute?

"How many Israelis have been killed/ You neglect to mention that little piece of information"

My Apologies Adam. Roughly 1,000 Israelis have been killed in the same time frame, which is utterly despicable also.

Mordechai

Ian G - my aim is not to paint all Christians in this light! Rather it is for moderate and sensible Christians to be aware of the antisemitic attitudes from within.

Harry Czeiger

Thank you for your astute comments in your brilliant article.

adam

Let's see now. Isreal occuppies illegally, builds a wall, gets billions of tax payers money from USA, denies cargo of medicines, food. Squeezes the life of the Palestinians for 50 years.

General Assembly Resolution 194, Dec. 11, 1948 was broken by Isreal.

Security Council Resolution 242, Nov. 22, 1967 was broken by Isreal.

Israel's settlements in Palestine are Illegal.

Security Council Resolution 446, March 22, 1979 , broken by Isreal.

Palestinian have the right to Self-Determination.

General Assembly Resolution 3236, November 22, 1974, broken by Isreal.

Reaffirmation of a Palestinian State

Security Council Resolution 1397, March 12, 2002, broken by Isreal.

International Humanitarian Law: the Geneva Conventions - 150 years of international designated protection of civilians during wartime and Israel's explicit violations..broken by Isreal.

Shall I give you hundreds more paul? Hmmm?

Paul, wake up and smell the coffee. You're talking about Isrealis been killed. 50 years of occuppation, kiiling Palestinians

Given by UK, United Nation. Who had right to give to Isreal? Eurpean Zionists. Not even Jews but Zionists.

You don't see Jews marching on TV against Isreal.

Laes Honolila

Paul stop talking about how much and how much killings, and stop comparing Britain to Israel, Britain is not located in the middle East and surrounded around enemies, the British did murder and did horrible things to people in the past, I think you don't know your history, the white man who wipe out the native Americans was British not Greece or Swedish, the British was one of the first people in the west to trade slavery from Africa, look who is talking, I hope you go to the British library and do some research

phil

Koestler ,was that your answer to mine at 4.05 yesterday-what on earth did it have to do with catechisms-?you never answered one word did you ?-You continue to quote Catholicism (as you see it) from the dark ages even though it has evolved and been updated by various Popes -I will remind you the earth is no longer flat and that you were given legs to walk ,a mouth to eat with ,ears to hear ,eyes to see ,private parts to procreate and a brain to use to decide right from wrong ,all but the last I assume you use ,so why can you not use the brain to make decisions rather than follow the advice of the ancients come what may ,no matter that they are way past their sell by date ----------

. I seem to remember certain ideologies being quoted as the reason for atrocities in the past "-we were following orders"-they were soundly rejected by modern justice ,so I hope you will feel comfortable when you meet your maker and tell him you were following orders rather than using your brain.Would you have followed the crusades for instance ,they were designated as essential were they not? would you have attended the burning of heretics ?,even helped out in 1492---------

I am not suggesting for one moment you abandon a great religion ,just live in the now Koestler ,you will be a far happier man .

Terry

Funny, but when Russia invaded a sovereign state and handed its territory away, on the thinnest of pretexts, no-one was blabbering on about 'disproportionate force'.

I hope Israel disproportionately kills every hamas fascist it can find breathing. Then Israeli Jews will be disproportionately safe from the arab genocide that the bbc, U(nited)N(azis) and eu crave for. Sorry guys, but nowadays we just don't roll over for you bastards. We've got an army and we use it - not often enough, not always long enough, but usually with some authority.

I hope hamassholes enjoyed 2008. 2009 won't last as long for them.

Adam B.

Paul, you have missed the point again, which is this:

What would you expect Britain to do if we were in the same position as Israel, having a part of our country being rocketed by a terrorist group from a nearby territory - a terrorist group whose declared aim to not only to destroy Britian, but kill all British people wherever they are in the world? Would you expect the British government to turn a blind eye to the plight of its citizens who were being deliberately targeted? Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Adam B.

Paul, some who make the (erroneous)accusations you throw at Israel would make the same (erroneous)accusations against Britain.

Adam B.

Happy New Year to all people of good will - especially Phil!

Anglica

Yet again: Well said, Frank Pulley. Thanks.

Happy New Year to All.

Pip

Well said Melanie.
Good to see you back, missed you.
Happy New Year to you and yours.

Gil

To compensate for Ed Hussein's wobble, here's another ex-Islamist telling it as it is:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733118401&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

phil

ADAM B many thanks that was kind

paul

Adam

Well see there, all you've done is come out with a massive strawman (again). On top of that you're guilty of inductive generalisation with insufficient evidence.

The first big problem is that you need to provide evidence or logic for how or why Britain might have arrived at your scenario; what's especially problematic about your argument is that there's no way of knowing how the UK would have dealt with a comparable situation as the past 50 years of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: I'll wager very differently indeed. The second big problem is that your argument cannot be used to justify Israel's actions because they do not provide any proof that the actions of Isreal are effective (which is what this whole debate is about). In short all you are saying is "if A carries out action on B then X must carry out same action on Y, therefore the actions of A are correct"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning

-----------

"Paul, some who make the (erroneous)accusations you throw at Israel would make the same (erroneous)accusations against Britain."

What?

Koestler

phil
I have not said I was Catholic -you have merely assumed it. You, not I, brought up the Catechism (a very recent version). If you read it you would see that considerations of proportionality are there. I then brought up the just war tradition (the arguments of which appeal to the natural moral law). The catechism you quoted is indeed "updated" and builds on that tradition (seeing as you appear to know next to nothing about the tradition I find it hard to believe you know anything about more recent Church teaching - esp. since you appear to think it in some way contradicts past teaching (based in the n.law tradition) and can be used t o support presnet Israeli actions.
In short, it would be difficult to pack in more errors and demonstrations of ignorance into a short comment (your previous comment suggested I thought I spoke for a religion (I'm not particularly religious) on the basis of nothing - merely my accurate rendering of both the tradition and the view of present Vatican teaching.
The Church has always taught that people must follow their conscience - i.e. follow moral reason - which ultimately is found at Christ, but can be understood at a natural level (i.e. not mere "order following"). Your understanding of Church teaching is a crude caricature of it- as are your rather tired historical references - read Riley-Smith on the Crusades etc. etc. The 1492 and flat earth stuff is utter nonsense - the flat earth story was popularised Washington Irving !(detailed account of how many believe such an arrant nonsense about our predecessors beliefs can be found in Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus and Modern Historians) - oh btw Columbus was an extremely devout Catholic who was never persecuted. phil - you don't know what you are talking about because you opine without studying what you need to in order to opine on a particular subject. Don't bring up things you know nothing about (Catechism, Church teaching, historical events etc.) esp. when you appear blissfully unaware that there even is a just war tradition. Still, I do wish you a happy new year - and I thank you for the advice re. meeting my Maker - at present I don't fancy my chances so any prayers gratefully received! Be assured of mine - esp. at this sad time.

BJ

There is an excellent article in the Guardian today by Daniel Barenboim on the Israeli attack on Gaza. There is at least someone who gets the Israel/Palestine conflict and the solution to it.

Also Robert Fisk in the Independent has put the futility of this aggression into historical context. And pointed out that eventually Israel will have to negotiate with Hamas as of course, it has in the past.

phil

Koestler -I really do not care what religion you are, it is not relevant to what i have to say to you .I wish I could reply to your last post but the content of it eludes me ,apart from your never ending assertions that I know nothing.I know enough thankfully to judge when I am reading nonsense,and also when a poster cannot answer the questions posed to him .If anyone else reads what we have written I am happy to let them decide who is living in the now and who is letting blackadder write his script .
btw I know nothing about catechisms ,and I didn't know I had quoted one -perhaps you will tell me what it was -if it was "the meek"etc do not bother I didn't know it was one ,but I don't see it happening ,do you?

phil

ADAM B-this guy Paul is not a normal poster and certainly not worth your time and effort as I am sure we all can tell his posts are nonsense -they are supportive only of anyone who will write something anti Israel -no logic no solutions just silly accusations -I suggest you try and deal with Koestler ,as that is one complicated and I feel very confused mind -he is beyond me-but not in the same category as SI,N -I think he means well and does reply unlike mark ,rosa and the mellifluous latchford who just disappear into the ether when confronted with some sense .

Koestler

But phil - you really don't know anything much - not even that you brought up the (contemporary!) catechism on this thread (see Dec 30). (Yet another misrepresentation then, on your part). As you don't take seriously what you write (if you don't care what religion I am don't bring it up) know next-to-know history (see your earlier posts) and seem to think the history of ideas irrelevant ("I'm in the present-me so I don't need to think about things people wrote a while back") there really is no point debating you (or, it would appear, your mate/other identity). And you wonder why people "disappear" from "debates" with you. Same reason as people make for the exit when faced with time-wasting know-nothing pub bores.

Adam B.

BJ, cart before the horse I think - Hamas is the aggressor, not Israel. Is that the same Fisk who alleged Israel was using phosphorous weapons, which turned out to be garbage, the same Fisk who waxed lyrical about the terrorist (and hoarder of a billion dollars of aid money) Arafat?

Adam Ant

Shame that Israeli ministers spread garbage by admitting that Israel uses phosphorous weapons:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6075408.stm
and

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/777549.html
or that Fisk consistently denounced the Arafat as corrupt etc. Still, truth not your forte eh Adam.

paul

"Shame that Israeli ministers spread garbage //etc etc// Still, truth not your forte eh Adam."

heh, pwnage!

phil

Koestler
January 2nd, 2009 12:44pm -was that in English ?-I think I need to apologise to you as I appear to have driven you over the edge-I know I was light-hearted in my panto cast,but if the last post was a joke -i do not get it .sincere apologies if you are dyslexic .

Adam B.

Adam Ant, you are quite right, I got that one wrong. Fisk lied about uranium, not phosphorous.

That's OK then.

But then I guess, truth is not Mr Fisk's forte, eh Adam Ant?

Adam B.

Koestler, are you going to say anything of any relevance to this thread? And did you write a book on just war theory?

phil

koestler I obviously have more desire to do the work than you and nobody can say I have not tried, so here goes

koestler I have just realised what you meant re catechism -you really were not clear were you and i doubt that you have read it anyhow as you will not respond but no matter -------"the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in paragraph 2309, lists four strict conditions for "legitimate defence by military force-for your edification see below and then tell me if the Israelis have not tried everything ----

--2309-----""-The strict conditions for legitimate defence by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

- there must be serious prospects of success;

- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition. ""

Do I need to remind you of 60 years of unrelenting attacks on Israel ,their numerous attempts to make peace (some successful) and of course the hamas charter

If you care to respond please try to do it in a form that is understandable as your last efforts were mumbo jumbo ,apart from your usual insults which are beginning to define you .

Pete Hoskin

Si, N: your message received. In answer: it's because of the "cheerleading" claim in para 2.

Si, N

Thanks Pete.

Si, N

SChurch, speak for yourself – I’m among the ‘common British people’ and I strongly oppose the slaughter of innocent people in Gaza. Though I thank you for acknowledging that you are ‘too misinformed to make the right decisions and take the right steps’ – in that you speak for those registering their support for the massacre of the oppressed and captive population of Gaza.

Just one point about Melanie Phillips citing Rubins to bolster her piece about the massacre: the ‘reporters who are not on the spot’ are ‘not on the spot’ because Israel has actively prevented them from being ‘on the spot’. Precisely why Israel has prevented journalists from being ‘on the spot’ is clear – Israel doesn’t like the world to see it at its dirty little job of massacring innocents.

Sounder, there’s a problem with your notion that Hamas ‘bring their civilians with them to the fight’. It may have escaped your attention, but the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza (many refugees from Israel’s ethnic cleansing campaigns, over 50% children under 16 years of age) have actually been incarcerated; their movements have been severely restricted by Israel – and latterly, with Mubarek’s acceptance of the US dollar bribe, by Egypt too. Since the so called ‘Disengagement’ Gaza has been on lockdown. You mightn’t recall Dov Wiseguy’s avowal that '[t]he idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger.' You see the plan was to ‘soften-up’ the Palestinians and then kill them with the weight of Israel’s considerable military muscle – all brawn you see – but no brain. This I fear is the onset of the ‘bigger shoah’ as promised by Matan Vilena.

You see that’s one of the wonders of this conflict; Zionists baldly make clear their intentions but the full import of their proclamations is wholly ignored or denied by those who cheer on from the sidelines.

Here’s a word or 2 from an honest Zionist, David Ben Gurion:

"[i]f I were an Arab leader I would never deal with Israel. It is obvious: we occupied their territory. It is true that GOD had promised it, but what does it mean to them? Our GOD isn't theirs, we came from Israel, it is true, but two thousand years ago, and what does it mean to them? There was anti-semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but what was their fault? The Arabs only see one thing: that we came here, that we stole their land. Why would they have to accept such a thing?"

And this from a flip flopping Ehud Olmert:

"(I am saying) what no previous Israeli leader has ever said: we should withdraw from almost all of the territories, including in east Jerusalem and in the Golan Heights,"

Some things are just too important to stay put in the memory hole.

So ConcernedCanadian when you say that ‘there were some details missing in the reports’ of the ongoing slaughter, I agree with you whole heartedly. The problem is, an obvious detail missing from 99.9% of mainstream reporting is the very detail on which the conflict hangs; that is, Israel’s ongoing violent occupation and ethnic cleansing of Palestinian lands. Really, it was true 50 years ago when Ben Gurion uttered those words and it remained a truth right through the period leading to Olmert’s admission in August 2008.

It’s still true today.

It’s incredible to read on this blog the hysterical nonsense about ‘al-Beeb’ and so called ‘pro Palestinian’ bias. No such bias exists – as usual on this blog the apologists for genocide have inverted the picture. How can reporting that is bleached of context – that fails even to mention the ever tightening grip and disturbing developments in the West Bank – that is, the increasing belligerence of Israeli settlers, whose behaviour Melanie Phillips, rightly for a change, categorised as ‘barbarian’, and the ongoing construction of the illegal separation wall with its attendant ethnic cleansing – how can such reporting truly be ‘pro Palestinian’? No, the resounding story that emerges from the reporting is that Palestinians are dedicated to the destruction of Israel for no other reason than an innate Arab hatred of Jews – that is precisely the story Israel and its apologists have chosen to disseminate – that is what has been reported so quit carping.

Not that the reporting should be balanced – quite the opposite – the reports should in fact be ‘pro Palestinian’ – demanding balance in this matter is obscene, as disgusting as would have been calls for balance in reporting Saddam Hussein’s occupation of Kuwait or Hitler’s in Poland and France. There is no ‘pro Palestinian’ bias in the reporting, just some grudging recognition that very many innocent people have been: incarcerated, taken to the brink of starvation over a 2 year period (Dov Wiseguy’s promise), and then blitzed mercilessly by one of the worlds mightiest military machines (Matan Vilena’s promise).

Go Israel!

An American

Si, N

So what is your solution?

To force all Jews from Israel and give what was once a desolate rocky desert good only for goats to forage on... but is now a beautiful prosperous, modern nation to the Palestinians?

Liberals seem to have plenty of complaints but not even nominally reasonable solutions.

Koestler

phil
You can't read your own posts, you can' understand simple posts, and, as has been demonstrated, you misrepresent your past assertions. On top of that you show contempt for the history of ideas. The Catechism (a product of and overseen by the Vatican)gives conditions - which clearly rule out Israel's actions on several(and the Vatican agrees - so you use a document the authors and guarantors of which think that Israel is waging unjust war!). Yes "Adam B.", I do know rather a lot about Just War theory and have done scholarly work in this area (though not a book)- you do not (see your ignorant comment re. disporportionality conditions). I'l leave you to misrepresent Fisk and I'll leave phil to confuse accurate representations of what his words reveal about him with "insults".

Dave M

Watching the B.B.C. coverage of the conflict and listening to E.U. diplomats I can't help but think Israel has braced itself for this backlash. To my mind, all of this backlash is a predictable symptom of the gradual Islamisation of Europe and the U.K. The deep seated fear of our politicians is this current military action is going to upset Europe's more radical muslim population as well as muslims all over the world. There is perhaps also an unexpressed fear of terrorist reprisals within Europe or unrest. The simple facts are these: Israel has been attacked by hundreds of rockets over the last few weeks. There is a realisation Hamas is smuggling ever more deadly, more sophisticated rockets across the border in order to kill Israelis. Something has to be done. How odd the B.B.C. seems to be rejoicing in the fact the terrorists can still fire rockets into Israel after several days of air raids! However, the Israelis must already know Hamas has its rockets stored in schools, hospitals and mosques no doubt. Air strikes cannot target those areas so the rocket attacks continue for now. I haven't heard one U.K. politician or journalist thus far come out and say Israel is doing the right thing and does its utmost not to harm women and children (difficult as this may be). If Israel simply sits back and does nothing then the day will come when Hamas has enough firepower to hit Telaviv, possibly with WMD. Or simply the scale of the rockets will be sufficient to cause chaos within Israel. Thus, Israel should get this job over with now, grit its teeth in the face of the usual anti Jewish hysteria, go into Gaza and destroy as many rockets as they can get hold of.

Adam B.

Koestler, how did I misrepresent Fisk? I admitted I said phosphorous when I meant uranium. Otherwise, I was accurate. As for your beloved just war theory, I prefer to live in the real world rather than a theoretical one. Tell me, are you an academic? It would explain your inability to see morality clearly.

Adam B.

DaveM, you're right, except the rockets haven't been fired for weeks, it's been 8 years (with hardly a word of press coverage). All the people whining now about Israel's actions against Hamas are people who hate Israel anyway, all the usual suspects. In light of this, anything Israel does would be wrong in their eyes, so Israel may as well do its best to protect its citizens.

Adam B.

Some interesting and illuminating comment and info:
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001000.html

Si, N

‘Koestler, how did I misrepresent Fisk? I admitted I said phosphorous when I meant uranium. Otherwise, I was accurate’

Not quite Adam B., your second claim about Fisk…

‘the same Fisk who waxed lyrical about the terrorist (and hoarder of a billion dollars of aid money) Arafat?’

…also misrepresents the man – see this from Fisk:

‘So the death of Yasser Arafat is a great new opportunity for the Palestinians, is it? The man who personified the Palestinian struggle -- 'Mr. Palestine' -- is dead. So things can only get better for the Palestinians. Death means democracy. Death means statehood. That the final demise of the corrupt old guerrilla leader should be a sign of optimism demonstrates just how catastrophic the conflict in the Middle East has now become... The reality is that the outlook in the Middle East is bleaker than ever.’

Both claims incorrect + 100% misrepresentation of Fisk = totally inaccurate post.

Simple enough for you?

Dave M

"It’s incredible to read on this blog the hysterical nonsense about ‘al-Beeb’ and so called ‘pro Palestinian’ bias. No such bias exists.."

Well, I'm still waiting for some U.K. journalist or politician to bypass all the anti Jewish hysteria and examine the facts. Also to state the obvious that the IDF doesn't get a thrill out of civilians being caught up in the violence. It's also about time the media got used to the fact Islamic extremists hide behind civilians, including children. They did the same thing in Beslan after wiring up a whole school with explosives while children were still in the building. The BBC, as usual, is behaving disgracefully by swallowing hook line and sinker the propaganda myth that Israel actively targets these civilians. I would go so far as to say it actively supports Hamas. If not, why did the Beeb repeat all those scenes of Alan Johnson being freed by Hamas on the hour, every hour some months back while suggesting Hama's election victory had saved the day and gotten him released. Rather than point out Hamas could care less about any BBC journalist unless such an individual could be exploited as a propaganda tool. Basically the BBC are biased and it shows a lot.

M Aasim

MY GOODNESS!!!!!
I fail to understand how one can think that everything shown on camera (NOT through MUSLIM media but the UNBIASED SECULAR media) is all staged! children dying and dead, new borns injured, houses bombed, demoloished, women crying....

If they can act so real, lets SHIFT HOLLYWOOD TO PALESTINE.

Mr. Bush says that its Hamas' strategy to hide in civilian areas...hence no option left for Israel but to bomb civilian areas.

Will Mr. Bush allow Israel to attack some 'CIVILIAN AREAS OCCUPIED BY AMERICANS' if it is reported to be Hamas hideout?

Moreover, as per Mr. Bush's conclusions, Israel has every right to 'PROTECT ITS BORDERS'

'ISRAELI BORDERS'? that didn't even exist just a few decades back!!

If it were German's who did cruelty to jews, then in my opinion, its Germany who has the responsibilty to repent and take Jews back...NOT palestine!!!

Kimberley McKaig

Melanie-In an upside down world where the victims are called agressors and the aggressors "agress" by making photo-ops available to the "step-n-fetch-it" wing of their army called the world media, I enjoy reading your pieces that speak truth, and interpret reality simply by...presenting the facts....an art long-abandoned in most journalistic quarters in favor of interpreting reality by turning the facts upside down.
Appreciative of your pith and vinegar, in Oregon state.
Kimberley McKaig

Mike

Who needs me when guys like
'Koestler' and 'Si,N' are threading their way so effectively through the mine-fields laid by guys like 'AdamB' and 'phil'!

However, I've just received an e-mail from the folk on 'J-Street' which hopefully may re-introduce some balance into this often juvenile debate. Fingers and legs crossed with the hope the Moderator(s) will allow it:

Israel has the right and obligation to defend its citizens from short and long-term threats, such as rocket attacks – including taking military action designed to address the specific threat.

The more relevant question is whether Israel’s attack on Hamas will accomplish its security goals. Retaliation is inevitable, though we don’t know how far the violence will spread or how many more Israelis and Palestinians will die and suffer in the days and weeks to come. We think escalating the conflict will prove counter-productive and only deepen the cycle of violence in the region. This attack will deepen animosity between the Palestinian and Israeli people. It will further damage the international standing of both Israel and the United States. It will ignite further anger across the Middle East, further challenging the governments of allied Arab regimes. All of this damages long-term prospects for peace and stability for Israel and the region.

For more visit: http://www.jstreet.org/

Louise

Frank P and David M, your long comments are brilliant, pertinent, and searingly perceptive.
Frank, as a paid-up member of the Conservative Party I share your exasperation regarding its stance, if stance it can be called.
Jeremy Bowen, on the BBC 10 pm television News last night, commented in his customary funureal tones (to footage of Muslim men at Friday night open-air prayer while armed Israeli soldiers looked on), that the Palestinians feel that Israel's intent is to strip them of their identity and religious. Not a hint that Islamo-Fascist Hamas wants to strip an entire nation of the same, not a hint of its Jihadist agenda. Several people have said to me: "Bowen's not so bad - he's not an Orla Guerin!" As far as I can tell, the essential difference between the two is that one came across as a strident fanatical harpie and the other prefers to dissemble, in a weary here-trigger-happy-Israel-goes-again tone, with a raised eyebrow here, a grimace there, and dissembling half-truthes everywhere. Guerin or not, he and the BBC (with its disproportional airtime given to opponents of the Israeli position), is having a deleterious effect on Israel's case and ensuring Israel's defeat in the struggle for public opinion.
Isn't it ime for those with the "necessary" to found a Jewish News Channel! Such a channel has been proposed from toime to time, but nothing has ever come of it. Hasbara? Humbug!

Koestler

Adam B.
Fisk continually attacked Arafat as corrupt and even compared to the Grand Mufti (who he is severely critical of). Simply look at the index of his most recent. Yes, I am an academic. The "real" world is governed by moral laws - torturers usually say they are in the "real" world and accuse those who would condemn them as living in an ivory tower. It's not an argument, just an excuse for ceasing to think carefully. I think we had better stop - but I implore to read about just war theory and then ask yourslef why it is immoral/impractical. I do not bring it up to condemn Israel (people act for all sorts of reason more or less understandable) - but because I believe it to be true and applicable to all and therefore in everyone's best interests to follow. I condemn Hamas because, among other things, they think they are being "realistic" in rejecting basic moral norms. The case is different with Israel - but she is also rejecting certain moral norms and no good can come of it.

phil

Koestler your last post to ADAM B was a calm assertion of your thoughts -How about in the same tone telling us what your solution is to the problems facing Israel-in fact how to avoid war at all -You continue to put forward just war theory when we do not want war in any way .

Israel as you no doubt know has been under attack from its first day as a nation -its now more than 60 years -The Palestinians have only been known as a "nation" for the same amount of time and in fact are Jordanians ,Syrians ,Lebanese etc -They live in "camps" forced upon them because those nations will not take them in quite apart from their argument with Israel -They have been expelled by Jordan and Lebanon ,who seem to believe they have a reason -I hope you can explain to us why that is the case .Please do not leave it to S,IN whose lies grow bigger with every post he writes.

I have made it clear in earlier posts that I believe you mean well and I do think you are truthful even though we do not agree ,so lets have your considered opinion of the solution for Israel without war just or otherwise

phil

Mike I have read the statement from J street,and you will probably recognise they reflect a lot of my attitude to this terrible problem except I believe they are not workable-I will quote the last para----------"Even in the heat of battle, as friends and supporters of Israel, we need to remember that only diplomacy and negotiations can end the rockets and terror and bring Israel long-term security and peace."

The Israelis have been trying this for years without success,why do you think it will work when hamas is dedicated to Israel's destruction ,and to remind you it was hamas who finished the ceasefire -I have asked Koestler for his solution and now I ask you for yours-please make it practical as those Israelis are not going to leave their country ,and please remember the Palestinians voted for hamas not fatah who might well have brought them peace.

Jonathan Klineberg

To M Aasim
And where would all the Israelis thrown out of Arab countries go, pray tell?

Jonathan Klineberg

What I do fail to grasp is that when Britain helped to bomb Serbians in 1995 and managed to kill over 1000 innocent men, women and children & in a war absolutely nothing to do with us, no-one here seemed particularly bothered.

Dave M

M Aasim states:

"ISRAELI BORDERS'? that didn't even exist just a few decades back!!"

This is the problem when it comes to any analysis of the conflict. I can't recall any BBC documentary ever broadcasting a historical explanation of the crisis. Most of the Arab World simply doesn't accept there should be a State of Israel as if Jews had suddenly landed from nowhere. Yet, in actual fact, even under Roman domination Jerusalem was a virtually autonomous Jewish region, recognised by the Romans. Prior to that in 1000 B.C., Israel and Judea were established in the region. So, why does the Beeb talk about "occupation" because "occupation" is the Muslim interpretation. Nobody can really occupy a land where they already have ancient, roots. The basis of the Hamas argument is really that, in their eyes, the whole global outlook should be structured around Islam so other religions and cultures are viewed as a threat. The Palestinians themselves are also not an ancient culture as the Beeb would have people believe. They arrived well after the Romans left and occupied lands the Jews had been displaced from. There is, in actual fact, no logical basis for making a claim all land in this region should be termed "Muslim Lands" which is the ill informed BBC outlook. In fact the Romans themselves wouldn't have understood the term "Muslim Lands" because Islam didn't exist in their period. So why should history be re-written to suit more radical Muslims?

Adam B.

Sin and Koestler, I find it interesting to note that Fisk's lies about uranium munitions don't bother you. As for Arafat, Fisk whitewashed his pioneering work in the field of terrorism, criticizing him only because he felt he let down the Palestinians, not because he was a murdering thug. Such is Fisk's morality. I regard that, and your defence of Fisk, as despicable.

Adam B.

Sin, it is also interesting to note that you hate Israel, whatever it does (and seem to suggest that it should be destroyed) but think the BBC is fair. Says it all really.

Adam B.

Koestler, are you a member of the lecturer's union which voted to boycott Israel (and only Israel, alone in the world)?

Frank P

Louise,

As I promised to do on an earlier thread on the Coffee House blog , I have contacted my local Conservative MP and referred him to Melanie's recent posts on the lamestream media's treasonous reportage, BBC in particular (though Sky is almost as bad and I never expect better of Julian Mannion of ITV - a flake of the first order), together a replication of my above post. Should he deign to reply, I will let you know what he says via Melanie's blog. It will at least give us some idea of what one Conservative MP thinks of the current destructive propaganda. Thank you for your supportive comments; it is nice to know there are more kindred spirits out there and I know from my American friends that this blog is widely read over the Herring Pond, too.

Mike

phil: I'm not going to get into it with you. I've been down this route before and it's not going anywhere. If you wish to pursue your question then put it to those who are in a position to do something about it. Wait 17 more days and perhaps Barack Obama may be able to help you. Meanwhile, the hundreds of thousands of peoples demonstrating around the world today may provide you with an answer. Tune in. Finally,(says he hopefully)if you are sincere about what 'J-Street' are trying to do then register with them....uncover what other Jews are saying and help find the peace.

theod

Our esteemed columnist notably says NOTHING about the illegal settlements and de facto occupation of 40 years that feed Palestinian anger. Stop that and Israel regains moral high ground.

Si, N

Adam B (hairsplitter in denial)., with each successive post you reveal yourself to be ever more incapable of the simple act of reading - it's having a big impact upon your ability to reason logically.

It has been clearly demonstrated that your post about Fisk was 100% inaccurate yet still you opt to dwell on the subject. Beyond Chutzpah.

2 things: please point to the bit where I suggest 'Israel should be destroyed'; also, you state that I 'think the BBC is fair' - where did I say such a thing? Trackback and read my post and, if you concentrate really really hard, you may discern that what I actually said is the opposite of that which you attributed to me.

As the man said, 'truth not your forte eh Adam'.

wonderer

Koestler, Phil put a fair question to you. When you reply could you answer a related one? What countries, faced throughout their existence with terrorist violence, combined with explicit, credible threats of genocide from their neighbours, as Israel has been, have behaved as you would wish Israel to behave?

Ed

Melanie Phillips said recently that Britain's libel laws are too strict. Now, she is asking for legal action against parts of the media for "blood libel". She should her mind up before she writes on her blog.

Louise

Frank P, thank you. My own perception of Sky News is that it is far less biased than the BBC, but perhaps I haven't been looking at it systematically enough to make an informed decision. I certainly consider that Sky's Dominic Waghorn (who is on as I type this) is an objective reporter. Needless to say, it is the fact that the BBC so constantly and brazenly flouts its Charter and its Producers' Guidelines binding it to impartiality that is so outrageous and so galling. Their online News site seems to be virtually, if not entirely, captive to the forces of assertive and arrogant Leftism that crept into the BBC from the 1970s onwards; as far as its coverage of the Middle East is concerned, it doesn't help Israel's cause that all of the online News staff (to judge from a group photo of them once posted on the site) appear to have all been born after - in most cases well after - 1967, and were therefore born into an era (and probably, given the BBC's apparent recruiting preferences) a milieu in which Israel is seen as an aggressive imperialistic occupier and "Zionism as racism".

Si, N

An American, the ‘making the desert bloom’ narrative does not excuse violent occupation and ethnic cleansing. As for solutions – to begin with, in Gaza I’d advise against the current tactic– it’s barbaric and ultimately, as any sensible person can deduce, it will not improve Israel’s security in the long term. Though it will most certainly create more enemies for Israel – worryingly for Israel there is growing evidence that it is actually alienating those who would traditionally turn a blind eye to its belligerent behaviour. Obviously Livni and Barak know that ‘Operation Cast Lead’ (such a playful name for so deadly a pursuit) will not improve security in the long term – security you see is not their main aim; getting elected is – if killing Palestinian civilians and lobbing Israeli conscripts (groundforces are now moving into Gaza) into the line of fire is the price, so be it.

A similar disdain for genuine security can be evidenced in the route of the illegal separation wall that Israel is constructing in the West Bank. Israel claims that the wall deviates from the Green Line in order to maximise its security potential by exploiting topographical features. That is demonstrably false. If you study the maps it becomes glaringly obvious that the route of the wall, or the ‘Seam Zone’, is actually determined by the pattern of settlement and effectively compromises Israel’s security. For example, where the wall encompasses the settlement of Zufin, the Palestinian village of Jayyus is afforded optimal topographic dominance. Furthermore, because the wall cuts-off Palestinian access to farm land it will increase the number of Palestinians entitled to permits to cross the wall.

None of the measures currently employed by Israel will solve the conflict. Olmert got it about right when he said ‘what no previous Israeli leader has ever said: we should withdraw from almost all of the territories, including in east Jerusalem and in the Golan Heights’. That approach should be adopted along with a serious consideration of the Arab Peace Initiative - which states:

‘For the first time, Arab states commit to a collective offer to end the conflict with Israel. This is probably one of the most important demands of the average Israeli citizen--the knowledge that the conflict is terminated, and that no further claims on Israel or its territory will be put forward by Arabs--all Arabs’.

Wouldn’t that be a positive starting point? The Arab Peace Initiative is still on the table and Hamas are signatories – don’t be fooled by smokeblowing warmongers jabbering about the Hamas charter – Hamas’ acceptance of the Arab Peace Initiative trumps the outdated aims of the charter.

However, I fear all that is academic – following Olmert's unprecedented remarks Livni has let it be known that she prefers to continue with the ethnic cleansing approach to solving the ‘Palestinian question’ – see her comments about the Israeli Arabs having a ‘future elsewhere’. Sadly, that will prolong the conflict and demonstrate to the watching world that Israel, as ever, favours expansionism above the security of its people.

Neil B

Don't forget about the economic issues, the water/electricity/food etc. issues which stress the population in Gaza. There is also much creepy irony in all this. Check http://www.alternet.org/audits/116855/america%27s_hidden_role_in_hamas%27s_rise_to_power/
Money quote:

Still, at the time of the Oslo Agreement between Israel and the PLO in 1993, polls showed that Hamas had the support of only 15 percent of the Palestinian community. Support for Hamas grew, however, as promises of a viable Palestinian state faded as Israel continued to expand its colonization drive on the West Bank without apparent U.S. objections, doubling the amount of settlers over the next dozen years.

Koestler

phil and wonderer
I am making a statement regarding universal moral absolutes. If something is wrong it is wrong for Israel and it would be wrong for any country faced with a similar situation. You presumably think that what Hamas is doing (e.g. targetting civilians) is absolutely wrong (at least in this instance). What exactly one is to do is, of course, a very difficult question. I am concerned to rule out certain options - because if they're not ruled out then we have fall into an "anything goes" mentality - for we have removed the very moral norms that would allow people to condemn what Hamas is doing and also prevent people from reigning in subrational feelings of vengeance/destruction/hate which tend to lead to brutal actions.
So all this talk of "what would you do" can be answered, up to a point, by pointing out what I would never ever do. And we need to be clear on that beause if we aren't we can't really know what we should do. So, to those who would dismiss JWT - the question is, what do you rule out and on what basis? No clear answer to that is likely to lead, willy nilly, to an "anything goes" mentality.

Now, re. conditions, can ISrael be certain (or pretty certain) that its end (has this been very clearly defined or is it vaguely aspirational?) is achievable? Will it make things worse in terms of hate, vengeance etc.? Did a similar incursion into Lebanon actually help the overall situation despite massive casualties/displacement - is this operation relevantly similar?
It seems unlikely to me that either the end is likely to be achieved (even with huge civilian deaths) (and this is the view of very many Israelis that the govt. is supposed to represent). Is this the best way? - complex question - but Israel did break a ceasefire agreement on Nov. 5 so it's really difficult to say that tried all other options beforehand. Israel has repeatedly said in previous conflicts that it effectively does not accept the concept of proportionality (1.2 million cluster bomblets in South Lebanon - which were not proportionate to any declared end of their actions)and, in the words of both IDF commanders and certain influrential rabbinic councils, collective punishment. Proportionality is judged in relation to the goodness of the end to be achieived. Even on this ground (without going into the figures) the present action can't be said to be proportionate once the earlier considerations are factored in (time will tell - tell me if I'm wrong when this bloodbath is over). Israel has used indiscriminate bombing (See HRW on Lebanon 2006 (unrefuted report) and IDF leaders have justified bombing civilian areas (a 1 ton bomb in a densely populated area killed a Hamas leader some years back - classic case of disproportionate killing). These acts have been celebrated and there is no reason to suppose this mentality does not govern the current invasion. Israel has no objection to the use of nukes - which, in practice, always involve the infliction of massive civilian deaths - usually intentionally - if not then treating civilinas nearby as having no significant value - and effectively as morally justifiable as indiscriminate killing (never justifiable). So, the leaders of the army fighting reject just war theory and don't appear seriously to rule anything out (incl. torture). Hamas, even more obviously, don't seem to rule anything out - and that's why they are frightening. All of our actions must be governed by moral concerns. It is always better to die than be killed, be a victim of a Nazi or a terrorist or a Stalinist than to be a Nazi or a terrorist or a Stalinist. When countries, in the name of self-defence, ignore moral norms they eventually destroy themselves.
If you think rape is wrong, it means it's NEVER an option, even if raping someone might end a war. Similarly, disproportionate killing, torture, indiscriminate bombing etc. are always wrong.
As to wider questions re. the seige of Gaza, what to do about aid etc. these are huge and complex questions which urgently need addressing. Many other countries may well behave as Israel does (or considerably worse - I don't doubt this) - they too should be condemned. Wars can, however, be fought (when they satify the high demand of being just) in self-defence. The question is, how are we to fight them and what must we avoid in order to remain fully human. JWT offers us some moral absolutes and moral principles that help guide our prudential judgements.Nobody said this was easy. Too tired to write more -and that's my feeble excuse for any lack of clarity etc.!

Adam B.

Sin, are you saying that Fisk was accurate in alleging Israel used uranium munitions in Lebanon? Additionally, Fisk wrote in the most lyrical and syrupy terms about the PLO leaving Beirut in 1982, comparing these killers to a painting by El Greco. His writings are consumed by hatred, like you. You make the most ignorant and hateful allegations about Israel, hurling the term "ethnic cleansing" so that it has no meaning. Were not the 800,000 Jews from Arab nations ethnically cleansed? Baghdad used to be a quarter Jewish, a quarter! Now not one Jew lives in the whole of Iraq. Meanwhile, the Arab populations inside Israel, and in Gaza and Judea and Samaria continue to grow rapidly. Now that looks like a strange kind of ethnic cleansing. But then facts never intruded into your obsessive and unending hatred.

ryan

I believe that continued settlement is relevant. The Israelis continue to take new Palestinian land and settle it, regardless of what political tack Palestinians take. Until the settlements are rolled back, there will continue to be justification for violence from the people being dispossessed.

Mike

Koestler: Excellent!

Koestler

Adam B.
You mistake correcting your original assertions with some kind of generalised defence of everything Fisk ever wrote. You are again inaccurate re. Arafat - Fisk did/does condemn his excuses/smokescreens for killing innocent civilians, so you're wrong again (read his book). And no, I am not part of union advocating boycotts - nor do I advocate such (though you seem to think that no country should ever be singled out, and I see no reason in itself for that). That said, I do not support the boycott (you really do assume an awful lot about what other people think without any evidence. It's a bad habit and it needs curing).

phil

Koestler ,I am grateful that you took the time to write such a long and thoughtful piece ,but I am regretful that you could not find a solution to the problems Israel is faced with -You received a round of applause from the indefatigable Mike ,who in many discussions with me has also never found a solution ,he only manages to find blame and relies on fiskism for his journalism -at least we are trying !

My desire is for a two state solution with both living in peace and cooperation ,but this will never be achieved so long as hamas stay in power,I am sure you know what is their dedicated aim -the destruction of the Jewish state and its people .I also continue to believe that given a fair chance the Palestinians would take the necessary steps to make peace and a good start would be to stop the rocket attacks ,that will not happen until hamas is subdued ,that surely is obvious .The evil that is the hamas entity is victimising not only Israel but its own people ,so if ever there was a just war this must be it and it is not with ordinary Palestinian people ,it is with hamas .

Koestler ,we write and we debate and sometimes I wonder why we bother ,particularly after yesterdays demonstrations ,led by those like galloway and red ken who continue to display their hatred of all things Jewish-- If anything could persuade me which side is in the wrong ,the support of those two would convince me -

I ask myself why these people never demonstrate against Islamic violence ,the bombings and the murders of our own civilians ,it is always the same picture veils ,scarf's,Palestinian placards ,no apology for London,Mumbai ,Bali .Darfur ,the list is endless ,and we write ,what for ?--WE MUST KNOW WE WILL ACHIEVE NOTHING -my only explanation is that it cleanses our souls and that at least we are trying , so I will continue and I have no doubt so will those like Adam B and Kate A who incredibly still display morality and compassion in the face of blind hatred and lies from the likes of S,in and his useless idiots There are numerous others too.like Adam and Kate and I salute them .

L Nouria

M Aasin, people like you who been brain washed by the media don't have anything to say but hate peace, and love hate,
here for along time even an Arabs like me wanted Israel and palestine live together or next to each other peacefully, I think some people like you who are terrorist supporters don't want this, and this is harming the people you care not helping them, if Germany takes Jewish it is not bad, if you don't know there are many Jewish who live in Germany already, if Palestine takes jewish it is not bad either, if the Jewish take Germans is not bad and if they take palestinians is not bad, the bad is someone like you who hate peace!

bronxmike

When Hamas is vanquished what do you think will happen?

Will the Israelis stop building illegal settlements? Will the Israelis release the thousands of Palestinians being held without trial? Will the Israelis start to treat the Palestinians as equals even?

The answer is no and that's the problem. It's unbelievable that thinking,breathing human beings can't see past their biases and realize this. Incredible.

Mike

phil: 'You received a round of applause from the indefatigable Mike ,who in many discussions with me has also never found a solution ,he only manages to find blame and relies on fiskism for his journalism'

Can't let you get away with that. See the following post.

'Mike
July 23rd, 2008 4:26pm
Phil: for the record.
1. 'he never answers questions'...not true. I have a copy of all my posts on this site. If there are any of your questions unanswered kindly identify which and I'll do my best.
3. 'Actually I now believe that much of his material is sent by his friend Fisk'...not true..I read his column in the 'Independent' like thousands of others, including you. I've also read his books. Other than that I have no contact. He is not a personal friend of mine.
4. 'The last straw for me was defending the show of glee....' Please re-read my post. I end the paragraph with the word 'appalling'. You should have realised that when I described the whole scene as a Hezbollah propaganda exercise that is precisely what it was. Obviously it was intended to play well in the 'Arab Street'.....I found it appalling!
5. I asked you 'You call the invitation by the Christian Lebanese an incursion'......what is the relevance of that in the context of our chat?'......I would still like to know.
Finally, for quite some time now you have tried to persuade me to walk hand in hand with you....stand full square with you...in your belief and conviction that Palestinians and Arabs are always in the wrong and that Israel and Israelis' are always in the right. I can't do that'.

You chose not to comment on any of the foregoing.

phil

Mike we can indulge in semantics ad infinitum-I will try to make it clear ,you support the people who are the cause of the wars and continually blame the Israelis,who react to terror -they do not start it -The Palestinians continue to reject any movement towards peace and instil a hatred in their children to all things both Jewish and Israeli. Until this stops there are no prospects for an end to this terrible circle of violence .

As is apparent you bend your knee at the alter of fisk ,who I believe is demented ,but I get much of my knowledge from friends and family who live in Israel and want peace and justice for all and who do not live with hatred in their hearts for all things both Arab and Palestinian. You remain blind to the fact that all the Israelis want is to live in peace with secure boundaries and next to a nation with hope for a better future,does that seem to much to expect ? Rejection of that dream is unending by the section of the Palestinians and their supporters who terrorize the ordinary members of their society -

I cannot understand how an educated man can support hamas ,hesbollah and the Iranian lunatics who have hijacked a great people ,and then reject a nation who wishes to live in peace ,one who continues to add to medical science and most other scientific studies for the benefit of mankind ,what do your friends offer this world apart from war and terrorism ?

phil

L Nouria -the Arab people with the mentality you have displayed is the best hope this sorry world has -there are others like you and that number needs to grow and I think it is doing -well said

phil

bronxmike you sound like the font of all knowledge -don,t you think they should be given a chance prior to your condemnation ,and if you bother to reply please tell me what happens to convicted murderers in the Bronx ?DON,T BE SHY THERE ARE VERY FEW POSTERS LEFT ON THIS THREAD

Mike

phil: I agree the Jews of Israel have so much to offer the whole of the Middle East, and beyond. Just because I don't support Israel 'Right or Wrong' doesn't necessarily mean I support Hamas, Hezbollah or the policies of the present Iranian regime. Surely for an educated man you are not as stupid as George W Bush who said 'Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists'. Your smear of Robert Fisk is totally unwarranted.....you should be ashamed of yourself. Get's you nowhere.

phil

Mike i do not think GWB is stupid.inarticulate ok ,wrong sometimes as we all are but stupid no!! others will decide if I am stupid or not .and as for your friend fisk ,when he writes factual truth I will applaud him but not for biased rubbish when he has the talent to do so much better.

This palette has so many shades of grey ,neither side is always right nor wrong ,but there is one inescapable fact ,ISRAEL WANTS PEACE AND HAMAS /HESBOLLAH DO NOT ,

I am eating with a Lebanese family tonight ,we will "weep" together no doubt for the loss of life and opportunities ,we will accomplish nothing because the evil that you cannot see do not want us to.I have written castigating an evil rabbi today in another place ,one that has been denounced in Israel for his horrible ideas -he is alive and we cannot help that but we do not have to countenance his ideas -I just wish some on your side of the fence would do the same .

I spend too much time writing here ,but I want to contribute and I do not know any other way to do so -I am mostly "preaching to the converted "of which I am well aware ,but just occasionally I get a response from one that has an open mind ,and that makes it worthwhile -At least we swop ideas unlike the nasties who tried to put me down last week on the libel thread ,you and I try to make progress and they just issue sarcasm and childish insults (I get a good laugh and probably give better than I take though)-I just wish I could persuade you to think outside your box and see who is trying for peace .

Koestler seems to have given up the debate .it could have been your applause that sated his ambition -hope not come back Koestler -there is only we three left here:)