On the other side from civilisation

Peter Turner

The only trouble with telling the truth is that most people do not listen or even want to listen. Even so, please continue to do so for the few that do.

Joe Camel

On the other hand, the Grauniad deserves credit for publishing Carlo Strenger’s piece on CIF yesterday, calling attention to Hamas’ exploiting the people of Gaza as cannon fodder, under the title “What victimology does not account for”.

Quote: ‘Abba Eban, Israel’s dovish foreign minister for many years, coined the immortal saying “The Palestinians never miss a chance to miss a chance.” [. . .] Eban was right: Palestinians never miss a chance to miss a chance. They make every conceivable wrong decision. [. . .] So far, Palestinians have forced Israeli governments into hardline positions by their policies. [. . .]

‘Here we come to the fifth Palestinian mistake. Israel unilaterally left the Gaza Strip in 2005. Since taking over the Gaza Strip, Hamas has chosen to try gaining points against Fatah by keeping up the barrage of southern Israel in order to show its constituency that it is not a “collaborator of the Zionists”, but instead resists Israel. Hamas is totally cynical in its policies. Israel has made it clear through every possible channel that, like any sovereign state, it cannot accept constant rocket barrages on its civilian population, and that the reaction to such barrages would be harsh. But Hamas really doesn’t care about civilian casualties of its own constituency. All that matters to them is to show that they resist Israel.’

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/30/gaza-hamas-palestinians-israel

paul

i think that after examining the evidence the rationalist would support Israels effort. I have long sususpected that those who hate the values by which they (and even any minority) benefit must be irrational. The hatred is intensified because of the undeniable superiority of those values. The hatred is extended to that of any party attempting to uphold those values (and previous prejudices reinforce it). This is why anti-Israel bias and even anti-semetism in individuals of a certain political hue or leaning, and therefore most of our media is not suprising, if not inevitable. When you think through the ramifications, you can imagine we are indeed on the last stretch as predicted in the source of what were our collective values.

Charlie Coyle

I don't know why you bother. You cannot argue with lunatics, it a total waste of time. And, once the criminal element takes control violence is the only means they know. Israel, for the sake of western civilisation, should be allowed to run its course in Gaza and eliminate these rediculous Islamaic lunatics once and for all.

Hamil Alalibi

Ed Hussein, is he is some kind of Pakistani actor who grow up in the west? if he is, he has to stop promoting terrorism,

first at all he thinks he is open minded who change his mind about religion extremism, but he is still one of them, he is narrow minded man who likes to write things he doesn't know, again we all know what is going on in that part of the world,
yes, they have terrorists like Hamas who don't want to grow up, how many times they been warned not to throw stones and rockets to their neighbor country? they been told so many times but they refuse to listen, I don't wish anything bad to happen to any people, but Hamas terrorists get what they deserve!

Michael B

The choice is between marshalling the will to change the facts on the ground and seeing this through to its needed end - or face continuing erosions. Either way, a choice will be made; to be, or not. Attempting to view it in any other way - and it simply does not add up. Illusion and reality are not the same thing.

One rather pitiable quality was outlined here recently under the heading of "The real 'goldene medina' for American Jews," but that's a reality that seemingly won't be going away any time soon and need not be decisive in and of itself.

Imo, but I believe that's how it adds up.

David

I always thought he was a smoke screen, he cannot accept that the calculated killing of many of Hamas enforcers was an attempt to free the people of Gaza from Islamic extremists, this shows that he is still an extremist.

I may not think much of the Olmert government, but I think that they have a strategy for dealing with Hamas and it might just work.

I think by this false hope has exposed himself by defending Hamas.

EdDIE

I too have read the book written by Ed Husain the reformed Islamist. I thought that he was at last a voice of hope and sanity. He has now stated his real position with regards to the Middle East and it does not seem to differ from that of any fully-fledged Islamist. I finally have come to the conclusion the Israel in its pursuit of its total defence must never be swayed by the pressures of public opinion and the media. In order to survive, Israel simply has to completely destroy its mortal enemy, Hamas. Sadly, lives will be lost.

Gil

Peter, I doubt that those that support Israel in this conflict are 'few'. Most people would agree with the assessment that Hamas and other Jihadists are a threat to the free world. Lamentably, only a few state publicly what they truly believe.

Gil

As Melanie says,Ed Hussein's piece drips with malice towards Jews:'How can the children of Holocaust survivors become such brutal killers? And during the Sabbath?'

So it was OK for the Arabs to attack Israel on Yom Kippur and during Ramadan?

How can anyone take this person seriously?

Edward

Gaza is a secular society where people listen to pop music, watch TV and many women walk the streets unveiled.

Article by William Sieghart on timesonline.

Absolutely wrong, and illustrative of Melanie's point above.

Roy

It's time for a political change in Britain. It's time for a reshuffle of the intelligentsia competing to run the place. If nothing else it could mean a change to the angle of the tiller on the ship of state. By a remote chance a leader . . . a voice perhaps, might rise from the new stack of cards that just might resonate the correct cord to bring about some resounding echo in the empty heads of the befuddled semi-indoctrinated population.

Mike

Same old Mel.....re-writing the history of 1948, 1967 and 42 years on still trying to justify the perpetuation of Palestinians being held under the cruel heel of the illegal and criminal Occupation of their lands. The Palestinians have every right to resist this Occupation by any means their desperation delivers. To equate this justified resistance with the phenomena of world-wide Islamic radicalism is convenient.....but wrong-headed.

Neil Turner

Keep on keeping on Melanie, I completely agree.

George Orwell said "Speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act"

More revolutionaries needed please !

Edward

As the smoke continues to rise over Gaza, the tragic truth is that the hopes of wider peace in the Middle East also now lie in ashes. Tim Butcher. Daily Telegraph.

More disingenuous analysis from the commentariat. A failure to understand that Israel's actions are designed to engineer a form of peace into place not scupper it.

Edward

Oh, and suddenly the Met are mindful!

Commander Bob Broadhurst, in charge of public order policing for the Met, said: "We are very mindful of the deeply passionate response this conflict causes for some people. (The Guardian)

Will the last one out please switch off the light.

Wongiranger

Jihadi turncoats = Taqiyya. Don't succumb to their deception

stanley Jerusalem

Joe Camel
December 31st, 2008 2:13am
Abba [Aubrey] Eban's comment was that " The arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity"

George

Mike,

Please explain to all of us exactly what Occupation (not quite sure why you capitalised it) you are talking about that Hamas is resisting. The last time I checked, Israel hasn't been in Gaza since August 2005.

straightchris

"Disgustingly, he draws a moral equivalence between Palestinian human bomb attacks and Israel’s operation in Gaza."

Yoram Dinstein says that the International Law of armed Conflict states that the deliberate targeting of civilians by Hamas and the indiscriminate bombing by the IDF are equally forbidden.

"To repeat for the nth time: Israel was never the Palestinians’ ‘homeland’."

Norman Finkelstien has comprehensively laid out the historical record in his book Beyond Chutzpah with extensive sources.

The international consensus is for a two state solution: Israel existing within its 1967 borders with mutual and minor adjustments known as the "Clinton Parameters."

Richard

Well done Melanie....... Felt a bit sad when you you were away on your holiday intermission. Thank God you're back.....!

Nadia Halla

If the Islamic terrorist have a dictionary to read, their is not the word peace!

Adam B.

straightchris, Israel does not indiscriminately bomb. If it did, there wouldn't be a building left standing. And Mike, how do you explain that the genocidal war against Israel started long before the "occupation" as you call it of 1967?

Joe Camel

@ stanley Jerusalem

Thank you for pointing out the misquotation. I see that over at CIF a poster named TheVoiceOfIsrael has the made the same point within a much longer post. Anybody you know, stanley?

Shanah tovah!
JC

George

straightchris,

1) The IDF isn't bombing indiscriminately. It is attacking legitimate military targets. It is the cowardly Hamas who insist on putting their launch pads and munitions stores in civilian areas who are responsible for the deaths of civilians.
2) There is no such thing as "the 1967 borders". There was an armistice line of 1949 that remained in place for just over 18 years. An analysis based on something that never existed isn't worth reading.
3) The Arab states, the PLO and the Israeli Arabs are not prepared for "mutual and minor adjustments". Ask any resident of the small Arab towns near Kfar Saba if they are prepared to be in a new Palestinian state. The answer would be a resounding NO!

James Cartwright

"Israel does not indiscriminately bomb". Errr:
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/08/02/israellebanon-end-indiscriminate-strikes-civilians

If you can't refute the report then I suggest you keep your peace.

Matthew Roberts

Hamas will never learn so it is impossible to reason with them. You can't reason with those who want to destroy you. Isreal should not concern itself with left liberal opinion in the west but should destroy Hamas once and for all,or at least until they are rendered impotent.

Mike clearly has no understanding of history or of this conflict if he thinks that Israel is occupying Palestinian land.He depressingly clearly does not understand the concept of global jihad if he does not recognise that Israel is at the forefront of the clash of civilisations. Another useful idiot for Islam.Unfortunately there are many of them!
Victory to Israel!

straightchris

George,
1) Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and B'tselem have reported on previous violations, why should this be different?
2) The International court of Justice held that the separation wall in the west bank is illegal as it was built on Palestinian Occupied territory, that is land east of the June 1967 border.
3) So what do the people in Kfar Saba want? Palestinian Bantu stands in the West bank or a one state solution?
We are agreed, however, that indiscriminate bombing and deliberate targeting amount to the same crime.
What I find particularly disgusting was Ehud Barak's orders over the past few months to withhold insulin, chemotherapy drugs, dialysis supplies and all forms of medicine from the people of Gaza.

Peter A

Hussein has done more damage than many will realise-if only to our hopes that moderate views are gaing ground here.I have long contemplated the possibility that he and others are playing the 'long game' in which,like the IRA in negotiations,it doesnt matter what you say or agree to because the end result is all that matters.Lying, cheating, creating trust and breaking it and causing confusion ,can all be justified as part of the tactics towards winning.Honour belongs to the losers in this senario.Israel must push on and destroy Hamas once and for all.

Zikomo

Hussain is as much a part of the Islamist"Fifth Column"as Tariq Ramadadan.Dangerous.

George

James Cartwright:
Irrelevant, but HRW has a notorious anti-Israel agenda.

Straighchris

1) See above answer
2) Again, there is no such thing as a 1967 border. Secondly, there are plenty of interpretations of international law that the land that was annexed by Jordan in 1948 currently belongs to no sovereign state, and as such cannot be said to be occupied.
3) The people in Kfar Saba want the same as all the people of Israel - to live in peace.
No, WE aren't agreed. The indiscriminate bombing of civilians (as practised by the Palestinians) is illegal. The deliberate and legitimate targeting of military targets is legal, even when as a result of it non-combatants are tragically killed. But that's what happens when military targets are cynically placed in residential areas.
Why does Israel have an obligation to supply medicines to the Gaza strip? Let the Palestinian Authority buy them from wherever they want and import them through Egypt.

Vicky Heath

'Same old Mel.....re-writing the history of 1948, 1967 and 42 years on still trying to justify the perpetuation of Palestinians being held under the cruel heel of the illegal and criminal Occupation of their lands.'

How can Israel be in the Land illegally when the UN itself, supported by the world community, established their right to be there in 1948? Furthermore, even before 1948, Jews were buying land from absentee Turkish landlords, who, through their very absenteeism, their mismanagement of the land and their willingness to sell, showed how little they cared about it. Israel belongs to the Jews in every way imaginable. Melanie is not the one rewriting history.

logdon

Wongiranger
December 31st, 2008 10:17am
Jihadi turncoats = Taqiyya. Don't succumb to their deception

I also read the book and wondered. Maybe his style, or an impression of the immaturity jihadis often give off? Or possibly a shot at fame? As far as the latter goes he achieved his objective as 'talking head reformed Islamist' and of course the useful idiots over at the BBC lap up every mellifluous word. Yet my doubt redoubled after each broadcast. Something in his bestriding two positions and a bit of backtracking. But isn't the question of Israel almost akin to Tebbit's cricket test? I watched as John Ware skewered a decidedly squirming Iqbal Sacranie over the legitimacy of suicide bombing. Sacranie, try as he would could not bring himself to condemn it when Israel was factored in. Sure he was self righteously opposed if it happened in Britain, not so in Israel which he attempted to portray as a war zone and Jewish civilians, soldiers. Tariq Ramadam is the grand master of this strategy also, treading a fine line which appeases his Muslim cohorts and mollifies the Europeans who view the MiddleEast as yet another feather in it’s mad expansionist cap. I’ve just read the article which really confirms all the aforementioned par for course mindset from a Muslim consciousness when Israel comes up but one thing is plain to see, he’s not getting the expected massive volume of support he so obviously expected. In fact I’d say that the bulk of the Guardian Jew bashers are either in hiding or they’ve seen the light. However, it must be added, at bloody last!

phil

straightchris---COULD THIS BE ANY THING TO DO WITH HIS OPINIONS --"------------

On May 23, 2008, Finkelstein was denied entry to Israel because, according to unnamed Israeli security officials, of suspicions that "he had contact with elements 'hostile' to Israel". Finkelstein was questioned after his arrival at Ben Gurion Airport near Tel Aviv and placed on a flight back to Amsterdam, his point of origin. Officials said that the decision to deport Finkelstein was connected to his anti-Zionist opinions and criticism of Israel. He was banned from entering Israel for 10 years.------------

This man receives no respect, except from people who are anti Israel -As for your 1967 borders comment and the two state solution -who disagrees with that apart from the Arabs ?-Can you not see that it is Hamas who object to this ?or am i just wasting my time ? I have of course done that in the past with Mike ,who I see is back from his fisk lectures(assuming I have the right Mike)-but I am persuaded by Adam B that to ignore analysis like yours is to let people assume you are correct ,so its on with the diligence until this world wakes up to the truth .You will no doubt see I am trying hard today .

Joshua

Carlos Latuff is a notorious anti-Semitic cartoonist. In 2006, Latuff even entered and was placed second in the Iranian 'International Holocaust Cartoon Competition'. At YouTube, straightchris has posted a laudatory video of some of Latuff's most anti-Semitic work ("Obsession The Answer: Latuff, Heine and Finkelstein"). I think that says eveything we need to know about straightchris.

Rosa

Whilst I will never support terrorist action of any kind, I fail to see how one can condemn Hamas rocket attacks on Israeli citizens yet withhold criticism of Israeli air strikes on Gazan citizens.

Is not one human life worth the same as any other?

I’ll not enter into the great numbers debate (but one dead in six months to over three hundred dead in forty eight hours is, surely, an uncomfortable ratio by anyone’s standards); for what matters most here is what has always mattered most to me – human life. National boundaries – even the matter of national survival – should not play a part. Is an Israeli life worth more than a Gazan one?

Blaming the shocking civilian death toll in Gaza on Hamas for siting weapons caches in civilian areas is a daft argument. Without the rapist, there is no crime; without the murderer, there is no corpse; without the air strikes, there are no Gazan dead. (Of course, one could argue that some of them ‘brought it on themselves’ by giving a terrorist group support and political platform, to which one could respond that there is no such thing as guilt by association, young Gazan girls care as little about the politics that define their lives as young Israeli girls in Jerusalem cafes, and everyone has a right to life etc., but, for the sake of brevity, let’s let the argument stand.)

But blame is a difficult game, and I digress. Violence is justifiable only on the rarest occasions. This, I believe, is not one of them.

(Oh, and a non-related question to a lot of these angry posters and bloggers – who or what is this ‘intelligentsia,’ and why do people cherish such hatred for it/them? I have a horrible feeling I may be a member myself.)

Joshua

"The Palestinians have every right to resist this Occupation by any means their desperation delivers."

In other words, you are encouraging the Palestinians to complete what the Europeans started during the Holocaust, and even with the same means if that suits their purpose.

catesby

For goodness sake! To repeat for the nth time: Israel was never the Palestinians’ ‘homeland’.

They may not have had a sense of Palestinian national identity in '48, but they were capable of thinking of their fireside as their fireside, their house as their home and their orchards as their land.

And, in many case, yes these things were taken from them by force.

Tony

I predicted, when the first bombs were dropped into Gaza, that Israel would lose the media war almost instantly and then hum and har about a ground offensive until world opinion makes that alternative a non-starter.
For Ehud Barack to spend 24 hours trying to convince the French President that a 48 hour ceasefire wont work instead of unleashing a huge army into Gaza is deplorable.
It is time Generals and defence ministers were ordered to fight in the front line...they may think differently then! Why, in two wars this hesitant stop-start attitude, which gave Hizbullah and now Hamas time to pull itself together?
So, yet again, Israel loses the media war while its troops twiddle thumbs waiting to 'go in'. I would have called up 60 000 men and invaded in one massive wave, without any hint of a pending operation being offered to the world press.

Meg

Keep up the good fight Melanie.
We need your voice for the free world. Here in the US,the UK, Israel and other freedom loving nations.

Alex Bensky

As to the assertion of indiscrimate bombing, this assertion flies in the face of Hamas's own reports. Last time I checked they claimed about 360 deaths, sixty of which Hamas itself said were civilians. Even with Israel's precision munitions, so few civilian deaths after so intensive a bombing indicates that Israel is making strong efforts to minimize civilian casualties.

My sympathies for the Palestinians who lost their homes by whatever cause is no less and no greater than my sympathy for a like number of Jews who lost their homes in Arab counties after 1948 and fled, mostly to Israel. Not one of them is in a refugee camp today.

When we think about why this is, it leads us to the generally unspoken question about the horrible Israeli blockade of Gaza. Israel doesn't control all of Gaza's land borders; the strip has a border with Egypt and Israel could not control what comes across that border. But the Egyptians likewise have blockaded that border and there are reports that Gazans fleeing the current fighting have been shot at.

Yet somehow it's all Israel's fault. No one seems to suggest the Egyptians could open up their border with Gaza. I wonder why.

Well, OK, that's rhetorica; I don't actually wonder.

As to the current situation, it was summed up succinctly over a century ago by my favorite Civil War general, William Tecumseh Sherman: "War is the remedy our enemies have chose and I say let us give them what they want."

Barry Larking

"As a country, we have a moral duty to right our historical wrongs. We helped create Israel. We must now help create a Palestine."

Who are this 'we'?

Oh, I forgot! Many learned people have pointed out that 'young and angry' British Moslems from Pakistan want 'our' foreign policy changed. Dame Pauline Neville-Jones, Conservative spokesperson on these matters has said in public that such changes to UK foreign policy "where it creates problems" may have to change in order to placate the 'young and angry' but gave no details.

As far as I can tell the only way such 'young and angry' British Moslems from Pakistan will be appeased is if the RAF were to bomb Tel Aviv.

Hamas has no negotiating position other than the complete destruction of Israel. None. It has made this plain. It seeks war with Israel and plans to win by the novel technique of making its population a weapon of mass suffering. If enough of your own children die the world wide revulsion will bring victory. Stalin had a similar policy for his own people and it did him no harm. They on the other hand ...

Toby

Even in iran a newpaper was shurt down after it rpinted a letter attacking Hamas as a terrorist organization.

EDDIIE

“We find it curious that the weekend deaths of 13 schoolchildren in Afghanistan at the hands of an Islamist bomber; the Taliban suicide attack in Pakistan, which claimed 30 Muslim lives, and the unremitting internecine slaughter in Iraq (9,000 dead in 2008 alone) fail to incense the Arab street half as much as the Jews exercising their right to self-defense.”

David M. Bethune, Ph.d.

A truly magnificent essay. No more needs to be said.

phil

Rosa "-Is not one human life worth the same as any other?"that is a strange question to ask Jews -although I am not religious I do seem to remember that the only excuse for us to break the Sabbath is to save a human life .Each and every loss of human life is a tragedy and the Arabs have been trying to ensure Israeli loss of life since 1948 and stateless Jewish life before that .This attack is to try to stop hamas and its cohorts from killing or attempting to kill innocent Israeli citizens .Yes very sadly Palestinian civilians will have died too but that has never been Israel,s objective and there is the essential difference .--------The fact that the Palestinians have been less successful is irrelevant ,they have done their best .

You ask whether you are a member of the uk "intelligentsia "-well I will say that there are countless people who are appalled by those people. The people referred to are the guardianistas ,the left wing BBC newscasters (not all) the so called professors who call on boycotts of Israeli academia in spite of the enormous good they have done for health, IT,literature etc -do you think you are part of that group ,I suspect not

Louise

The BBC News at 4.30 this afternoon consisted of a long interview with a Gaza resident on conditions there, accompanied by footage of damage. In contrast to Sky, there was absolutely no mention whatsoever of the attacks by Hamas rockets today which have advanced as far as Beersheba and have struck a kindergarten. There was absolutely no reportage from or about conditions in Israel. Given the BBC's continuing demonisation of the Jewish State, is it any wonder that there is so much shrill condemnation of Israeli actions among the ignorant. This hardening attitude can be seen on internet forums, where pro-Israeli posters are harassed and vilified. But at least on that BBC News bulletin - one that will probably be shown for the rest of this day - we were spared (for the time being) the dissembling reportage of the egregious Jeremy Bowen.

L J Knoles

EDDIIE, you mention Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq, how about countries in Africa that no one mentions, let say in Somalia, Horn of Africa 50 innocent people been killed yesterday by Islamic extremist terrorists, and no one mention that, it looks like there is more Muslims killing each other.

CS

I published this yesterday, and trust it will be reposted today. I really think we should all take this on board...

As an aspiring politician, I write to thank you all for your encouragement. Israel is forced to fight the frontline battle on our behalf. We in Europe and the US have two challenges, one is the direct fight with Islamism (as Israel does) and the other is the war on stealth Islamism. It is eroding our media outlets, parliament and hundreds of other cultural/societal organs. We may be in a minority, (would you expect it any other way) but that is because so many are currently asleep or indifferent to the threat of Islamism. Let's help people to wake up! Make sure we're on the radio phone-ins, letter's pages of our newspapers, political programme audiences. We can reclaim the territory. It is not possible to win these arguments by just leaving the work to be done by the same few columnists. I for one, wrote emails to several radio shows yesterday.
Let us encourage one another to get out the message - let's not be a silent minority, but instead a very noisy one! We have the truth on our side - the biggest handicap in someways, but eventually the greatest asset.
And don't worry to much about the Christian repsonse. Christians in underground churches (China/NKorea/Iraq/Iran etc..) know only too well what we are fighting and their numbers are growing at an incredible rate. It's really best not to use lots of Western Christians as a barometer for the Christian voice right now. So many of them have fallen victim to the MSM and establishment viewpoint on all this.
So, if those posters I have read here on this blog can speak and write as eloquently for TV/radio/newspapers then they must use their skills to the max! Please!

Slater

Latest score: Israelis 4: Palestinians (large number of women and children and even more policemen - since when, however, were they classed as 'military targets'?) approx. 400. [All lies of course] but it is crystal clear who is perpetrating the massacre. Then again, I have absolutely no doubt that the bigots who write on these pages will not be satisfied until many more Palestinians have been liquidated.

joe

I applaud Eddie up above!!!

This statement alone shows how muslims really feel about terrorism and jews.

They don't!!!

Mike F

Have you invited Ed Husain to respond to Melanie's 30th December blog? I would be astonished if he could in any way substantiate his ultimately biased opinions & yet still be considered a non-radical Islamist!

Pedro Erik

Brilliant, Melaine. Unfortunately, the Ed Husain false ideas have dominated western countries, now more than ever. Obama’s election can be the turning point in history when we, from west, will deny our tradition.
I am from Brazil, but if I can suggest something to Britons (extensive to all western people) is: please, read your fellow countryman G. K. Chesterton.

Dixon

On a positive note...by way of helpful criticism...for Gods sake Israel, get some spokespersons who can speak English without a stereotype accent and clearing their throat twice in every sentence. To fight a media war with such people is like recruiting one legged blind-men to the SAS!

Why don't they do it right and hire some professional media consultants.

Bejeezus.

Rob

"hoped that if he was now told the truth about the history of Israel and the Jewish people, he would realise the error of his thinking on that particular issue"

The guys entitled to a pont of view for God's sake. There is nothing in his article that merits the hate-filled tirade you direct against him.

Steve

Look, no matter how you spin it Palestine was invaded by foreigners who now occupy the land. Anyone who fights that occupation is a hero and anyone who dies is a martyr.

David L

Here's an email I got from Israel:

Israel is, with no doubt, the craziest country in the world!!!

Israel is under a shower of Kassam rockets attack, but this fact do not stop us from forwarding the Gaza strip humanitarian aid on a daily bases.......
Israel supply's the Gaza strip with its main source of electricity, coming from a power station in Ashkelon. The fact that the Hammas shooting rockets constantly towards Ashkelon (Including toward the power station area) do not stop Israel from keeping the Gaza strip power stations from working......
Israel keeps the Gaza border gateways open, although the Hammas bombing the Gateways non stop......
Palestinians from Gaza who got wounded in an explosion due to disfunction of Kassam rockets before launching - are treated in Israeli hospitals by Israeli doctors and nurse's......
Yes. I admit. I live in a crazy country...But this is our answer to the hypocrites of the world, unfortunately, there are plenty of them all over.

Please forward this mail to your friends.

Frank P

Leopards and spots, Melanie.

HarleyDavidson

Great article. I especially liked the part where Ed Husain argues that this war will strengthen Hamas in Gaza and radicalize yet more Muslims. Really Ed? Radicalize more Muslims you say?

Say, Ed, wouldn't Muslim fundamentalist forcing Muslims under their control to live in a fifteenth century existence radicalize even people like you? Isn't that why you chose to tuck your tail between your legs and leave that world for Britain, Ed?

Slater, here's how I keep score, 3000 rockets fired into Israel this year alone. In my world you fire rockets at me or my family I will do my utmost to remove you and yours from this planet. Period!

Rosa, where were your violence comments or even your concern when Israel was being rocketed from your Hamas "peace loving" buddies?

Good hunting Israel! Its time to drain the swamp! Because HERE'S the bottom line, all Muslim states can disarm and noting would happen to them what so ever. If Israel were to disarm every Israeli would be wiped off the face of the earth by "peace loving" Arabic nations. Who can deny this reality?

wendy mann

"According to today’s UN figures, 364 have been killed of whom only 62 were civilians"

do you really mean 'only' ?

is 62 not enough?

leo solomon

The duped and deluded do not understand the Islamist strategy of heads they win tails Israel loses.They store their materials in and launch their attacks from civilian areas icluding- homes, schools ,hospitals and mosques because they understand Israel's reluctance to cause civilians harm. Hence-heads they win.
Should Israel be forced,as it is now by circumstances ,to do what is necessary with the inevitable consequence of civilian casuilties,the Pollyanna press and politicians start screaming "DISPROPORTIONATE"
Tails-Israel loses.
What is dispropotionate in war is doing more than is necessary to destroy the enemies desire and ability to wage it.

Ibrahim Syed

It's surprising a person with so much grey hair can be so frivilous with facts.

A few corrections. Most Palestinians have been indigenous to that land longer than the Jews have. If anyone has a right to that land, it's the people who can trace their roots there. And please don't bring up the Bible. Let's not oppose one form of religious fanaticism and defend another.

62 of the 390 being civilians is incorrect. 62 were women or children. To suggest that they're civilians is to suggest that to be a male Palestinian makes you a presumtive terrorist.

On the matter of the occupation, if the land the Palestinians are on belongs to Israel, let Israel take it as part of it. Either take in Palestinians as Israelis by citizenship, or relinquish that land as a Palestinian state. Palestinians don't react violently without reason. They've been subject to Israeli humiliation in that Warsaw Ghetto setting for over 6 decades.

Tim

David L, something's not quite right about that email. The Gaza Strip has been under an 18-month blockade imposed by Israel. The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs recently reported that Israel is only allowing 16 truckloads of goods to enter Gaza per day, in contrast to 475 trucks that entered the Strip each day in May 2007.

Frankly the extremism here is as odious as that of the Islamists you claim to loathe. It is not that difficult to feel sorrow for the death of innocents, be they Israeli or Palestinian. Most of us do not need to take sides, justifying the deaths of one set of innocents against another. In both cases it is wrong.

Personally I have no time for Ed Husain, but reading this a certain parable comes to mind. Plank. Eye. It's true, the arguments here are tragically appallingly.

Barrie

James Cartwright: "Israel does not indiscriminately bomb". Errr:
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/08/02/israellebanon-end-indiscriminate-strikes-civilians
If you can't refute the report then I suggest you keep your peace.

I assume, James, you support Churchill when Britain stood alone against Hitler and had to carpet bomb Germany to end his reign of terror [and incidentally save millions of Jews].
Even IF surrounded Israel bombed civilians [and they clearly don't], they would only be doing what Hitler and Hamas routinely did for years. James, you are a hypocrite.

Gábor Fränkl

Ibrahim Syed
I dropped in here accidentaly. 2(no rather 3)main things - although I could write a whole litany about the absurdity and falseness of your claims. 1. You are talking about the infamous "60 years". This spectacularly reveals you as someone who denies Israels's right to exist, which is - in and by itself - anti-Semitic not just according to many reasonable people, but even the so-called working definition of the European Union. 2. Warsaw Ghetto - your preposterous idiocy simply knows no bounds. This is patently and transparently anti-Semitic, whi smacks of - in effect - denying the Holocaust. So you are - at minimum a Holocaust relativist with the Gaza/Warsaw ghetto gibberish, at maximum a Holocaust denier. 3. Where were the "Palestinians" [there is simply no such distinguished ethnic group by the way] during 1948-67 when Egypt and Jordan OCCUPIED the - now - disputed territories? Where? Presumably they were pleased with this occupation because there were no record of their harsh protestation for a state of their own. so all the hype about "occupation" and the "Palestininans" is just a ruse, a trick, and a sick joke.
By these 3 basic points I rather proved that you are anything but an unbiased observer here.

Queen1

Look, no matter how you spin it Palestine was invaded by foreigners who now occupy the land. Anyone who fights that occupation is a hero and anyone who dies is a martyr.

That's from Steve. Well, Steve, assuming you live in England or Scotland or Ireland, you live in a land that has been invaded and conquered many times, yet the folks living there today aren't bloodily fighting their "occupiers." Human history is the story of conquest, invasion, occupation and settlement. At some point, you call it a day and work to build a peaceful civilization. The Palestinians in Gaza could expend their time and treasure in building industry, housing, hospitals, mosques, schools, restaurants, hair salons and the myriad other small businesses that make a country function. Instead of building a country, the Palestinians in Gaza wage an illegal war against civilians in clear violation of every traditional understanding of just war. Hamas has no standing in its aggression against Israel. Where it has standing is as the elected government of Gaza. The people of Gaza should demand that their government begin to build a functioning society instead of placing them in the way of the inevitable Israeli efforts to defend Israel.

Well done, Melanie. I spend a lot of time over at my blog talking about the death throes of Europe and America's position as the only healthy member of Western civilization. Keep up your efforts to stir your suicidal countrymen.

www.whenwearequeen.com

YA

moderators could you please remove posts of ibrahim sued and alike?

browsing through posts becomes uneasy.

there's nothing new, everyone is familiar with this viewpoint and fact that it is shared by billions of useful muslims or whatever.

someone who wants to discuss might go to cif or other site where that garbage is sorted.

now to the point - united kingom should deport aid hussein to the arab world and let him discuss issues of islamic degeneration there, and not poison atmosphere by these lies and nonsense.

Queen1

A few corrections. Most Palestinians have been indigenous to that land longer than the Jews have. If anyone has a right to that land, it's the people who can trace their roots there. And please don't bring up the Bible. Let's not oppose one form of religious fanaticism and defend another.

We don't have to go back to the centuries prior to Christ to discern that Jews lived in Israel well before Mohammed was a twinkle in his mother's eye. The fact is that Islam is a religion of bloody conquest and forced conversion. Even many of the "Muslims" living in Israel were probably forcibly converted many, many centuries ago. The Jews have been invaded and pushed out of Israel from Roman times. It is not religious fanaticism to assert their birthright, and certainly is as reasonable and justifiable as any Muslim assertion to a more recent "birthright."

David thomas

Possibly unrelated to this particular article but related to Israel and its UK media plight is; youtube.com/user/idfnadesk - a youtube group set up by the IDF to ensure that proof gets out of Israel clean, rather than with the typical anti-Israeli bias that gets put on things by many of the UKs media agencies - starting with the BBC and ending goodness knows where. It's very indicative of Israels plight that it has to create such things and will hopefully serve as a tool that can bring some balance to the UKs managed exposure to Israels actions. Like all good viral it probably depends on having the link sent on by all who care - maybe it's one way of getting the truth out?

David L

Tim, 16 truckloads of goods is still humanitarian aid to Palestinians who are attacking Israel with rockets.

Raymond in DC

Ibrahim Sayed claims, "Most Palestinians have been indigenous to that land longer than the Jews have." Rubbish. I challenge anyone to provide any evidence that confirms a Palestinian people, culture, state or capitol prior to the establishment of the British Mandate for Palestine.

Want more? A British census of Jerusalem in 1858 confirms that Muslims made up only 25% of the city, Jews about 50%, the rest Christian. Jews have been a clear majority since 1870. Huge numbers of Arabs who now claim to be "Palestinian" actually descend from those who immigrated into the Mandate lands from what today is Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt only after the Jews started rebuilding the land and work was available. The UN's registry of "refugees" post 1949 required residence in the land for only TWO YEARS. Oh, and that "third holiest Islamic site" in Jerusalem? Photographic evidence from the late 19th century shows it barely used and in a state of abject disrepair. Face it. The Palestinian people are a modern construct built on a fraudulent narrative.

It's also hypocritical to criticize Jews taking back their original homeland when the Arab peoples arrived there by conquest.

Anne

Hmmm. Have made a couple of comments, Melanie, to say well done, but they evidently don't pass the mods' muster. One last try--brilliant, Melanie. Keep it up--you have an audience; I hope they listen to you. Perhaps not all of Western civilization will self-immolate on the altar of political correctness.

stanley Jerusalem

Ibrahim Syed
December 31st, 2008 10:32pm

It's surprising a peA few corrections. Most Palestinians have been indigenous to that land longer than the Jews have.

Ah, now I understand. The Palestinians killed Christ during the Roman occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Oh well, that's another myth blown out of the water.Or perhaps it was the jewish terrorists.

Matt

This was posted in another forum & seems to sum up nicely the situation...

It is literally true that if the Arabs lay down their arms there will be no war, and if Israel lays down its arms there will be no Israel.

The aggression is entirely from the Arab side.

Mitchell

The story of Ed Husain reminds me of the old conundrum: can a leopard change its spots? It can certainly conceal them under a coat of whitewash, but when the rainy season begins, the coating is washed away, leaving the original spots.

James Cartwright

Barrie
No I don't support carpet bombing - (direct killing of civilians for purposes of war). So I am consistent in that (unlike you - who seems to think it justified in certain circumstances thus making it harder for you (not me) to condemn Hitler and Hamas). I apply a single standard and stick with it - you apply a double-standard (or mo moral standard at all!). But somehow I am a hypocrite!? And as you haven't refuted the report I shall have to conclude that you really should have kept your peace rather than revealing your barbarity and ignorance. Good luck sorting them out - I suggest you try studying logic too. That's the problem with internet access - it means the those who can't think feel empowered to opine thereby wasting everyone's time.

john

For sale: "The Islamist": Excellent condition, true-to-form account of a religious fanatic who went astray - 20p.
2nd volume "Still an Islamist" in preparation. 3rd volume, "Once an Islamist, always an Islamist" of this eye-opening autobiography will follow early in 2010. "Islamic Imperialism" by the same author. As new, dealing with a still current situation. A MUST READ!THIS BOOK WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE!remaindered copies. HURRY! HURRY! HURRY!

TDK

Don't worry, Rosa. Never fear, my dear, let me put your mind at ease: you are not, and never could be, a member of the intelligentsia.

Gil

Ibrahem Sayed (December 31, 22:32 PM), I don't know where you got your education but it was clearly an utter waste of time and money. When you need to resort to the most disgraceful and malicious comparisons (Gaza is like the Warsaw Ghetto) then it is clear you are only here to spout antisemitism. Israel gave back Gaza inc. settlements and hasn't enjoyed one day of peace since then.

It was Nasser who abolished the"All Palestine Government" in Gaza, not Israel. See Wikepedia. So, you should be criticizing your Arab brothers.

And being Jewish I can also trace my roots to Israel, for longer than the Palestinians btw.

Ian G

Imbrahim Syed. Most Palestinians are migrants who followed the Jews there. The Jews were always the largest section of a very small population. Find me a history of the Palestinian people from say the 1800's that is not mostly about the Jews. Show me a Palestinian Nation of Arabs that existed before Arafat invented it. The Arabs invaded many countries and the true indigenous people are now oppressed and persecuted. The Copts in Egypt, the Christian Iranians in Iran, The Jews in Israel. The Jews got their Land back, but only after Tran-Jordan was stolen from them and given to the Arabs. The Arabs promptly stole the West Bank and Gaza. The Israelis took it back in a Arab instigated war and they are call 'Occupiers and oppressors'! It's time you studied some real history instead of swallowing terrorist propaganda. Some of us are old enough to remember the six-day war and all that followed it. Some are old enough remember WW2 and all that followed it. While we live, your lies will always be lies.

Bob Latchford

"364 have been killed of whom only 62 were civilians"

Only 62? Wow....

Steve Lembridge

364 have been killed of whom only 62 were civilians"

Very selective and misleading use of statistics. The UN, is not classifying "Palestinian men" as civilians. So that should read 62 Women and children and who knows how many how many innocent men.

Slater

As an Anglo-Saxon Englishman I supppose I could trace my roots to the Low Countries/Northern Germany around 400AD - but that doesn't mean I have any territorial claim to that land NOW. Can't you all understand how silly your argument is about 'tracing your roots' [supposedly] to ancient Israel? And I say 'supposedly' because the evidence that YOU really are the direct descendants, ancestrally, of the ancient Israelites is not convincing. Look, rather, to the Eastern European shtetls.

Mark Rose

You've gone too far this time, Melanie.

I've heard Ed speak in public and read his book. Like most sensible people, he is outraged at Israel's excessive and inhuman response to terrorism. I am a Jew, and I agree with Ed.

Your logic of trying to brand Ed anti-Semitic and his arguments implying a second Holocaust do none us any favours.

Ed is a rare Muslim friend of Jews - he has a right to criticise Israel. He damns Hamas and Islamists, too.

You risk British Jews losing powerful friends and supporters at the Quilliam Foundation. QF and Ed Husain can reach parts of the Muslim community, ease tensions, that assist this country.

Ed is not an enemy. Melanie, please calm down and direct your anger at Israel.

Frank P

Bob Latchford

Surely there must be a Marxist rally somewhere that you could be attending on New Year's Day, rather than wasting your time here?

Read the post of 'Raymond in DC' (4.18am). Those are the facts; all you blustering bollix will not change them. But then as you consistently fail to read Melanie's impeccable analyses it's doubtful that you are receptive to accurate data. Moreover, whatever the history of the region, there are more pressing problems now - in this year of 2009, when Israel is an ally of the West while Iran and its satellite thugs are trying to destabilise the West and annihilate the Jews. There is a war on, old cock and if you want to choose to fight for the enemy I suggest you volunteer for action in Gaza, rather than doong a Lord Haw Haw here. You could help them rig up their am dram pics of perfectly healthy children smeared with the blood of dead terrorists (or Heinz Ketchup), the Western press Hamas sympathisers will take the snaps. You just have to arrange the tableaux.

Go Israel!

phil

Slater it is easy for a fool to speak, it is easier for the listeners to prove who the fool is -DNA has become the downfall of criminals and fools but comes to the rescue of truth .Your remarks are truly stupid in that they are so easily disproved -the Jewish bloodline is known to all scientists so you will have to try something else-- btw ,your ancestors seem to have cleared the shtetls -lucky you evaded them -see you soon?

Eran Steinberg

Where was all this outrage when Russia killed countless more innocents in Georgia, and raped the women and pillaged homes?

Where was the outrage when Britain set off to fight Argentina over some islands it claims to have title to?

Hypocrisy will soon again be Europe's undoing. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Never again...

phil

its panto time so I will offer you a cast of characters and you can choose your own -IT IS USUALLY A TIME FOR LIGHT RELIEF !!-------------

prince charming ---Mel
Pinocchio-ib syed
village idiot-bob latchford ,who wins a special prize for stamina and stupidity
Cinderella KATE A ,where are you ,we miss you
handsome knight -ADAM B
deluded the real mike ,with his own script writer aka fisk
wicked witch-patricia ,and yes I do have an understudy
Lr riding hood -Louise
wolf -notso straight chris
additional comical material by cartwright
Lord Mayor of London-who else but the wonderful Boris
Wuss in boots -well I,m sure you can all guess who that would be ,but she may be abroad .

Slater

Phil: 'the Jewish bloodline is known to all scientists'[???]. What complete and utter fabricated nonsense. Which 'scientists' believe that, Israel's own version of Hitler's cadre of racial quacks?

Oh, and of course what I've said makes me a Nazi ('your ancestors seem to have cleared the shtetls') - normally on this blog you've seemed relatively [with emphasis] sensible and moderate but you're revealing your true colours after all.

The bloodline issue is irrelevant. Even if it did exist, it would not reasonably establish any claim today whatsoever. Then again, common sense is clearly irrelevant as far as you're concerned.

Mike

Mark Rose: I've also read Ed Husain's book....'The Islamist' and agree with all that you say. Ed's postscript to his book reads....'Beware of extremism in religion; for it was extremism in religion that destroyed those who went before you'. The Prophet Mohammed (570-632).

Ibrahim Syed: Keep going.....you're obviously getting under the skin of several of Mel's acolytes. My experience with them is that it's not all that too difficult......never is with folk who are driven by so much guilt and paranoia!

Steve

Eran Steinberg: Britain didn't bomb civilians during the Falklands war. If we'd have been Israel, we would no doubt have carpeted Buenos Aires. Re South Ossetia the outrage was perpetrated by Georgia, a close ally of Israel, which fortunately Russia was able to repel. Georgia made a great effort to portray itself as the victim, just as Israel always does.

Gil

Mark Rose:'Like most sensible people, he [Ed Hussein] is outraged at Israel's excessive and inhuman response to terrorism.'

Mark, why don't you read before spouting claptrap. Ed Hussein is now calling into question Israel's very right to exist. This goes far beyond an argument about proportionality or not of a response. This looks like a trap that Mr. Hussein has set for well meaning people, to show that to cal into question Israel's very right to exist is now 'mainstream'.

And, do tell, what then is a HUMAN response to terrorism? Is all the evidence that Hamas are locating their weapons in the midst of civilian populations while Israel gives them ample warning to leave, not enough for you?

Get those blinkers off.

stanley Jerusalem

Once and for all [ probably wasting my breath] Ahmed Shukairy, an Egyptian journalist and politico who was Yasser Arafat's predecessor invented the term "Palestinian" in late 1964. Before that arabs caught up in their neighbours' all-out efforts to drive the Jews [Israelis] into the sea were known as refugees. No-one ever suggested they were indigenous members of a population called Palestine. Not even Gamel Abdul Nasser, King Hussein of Jordan, Brigadier General John Glubb [Pasha] ex-British Army and Commander of Jordanian forces responsible for occupying the 'West Bank' and the Old City of Jerusalem and whichever Fuad was King of Saudi Arabia at the time.
Hitler's propagandists got one thing right. If you tell a lie loud enough and often enough people will come to regard it as received wisdom.

John

Mark Rose, you seem to be an apologist for something. Like being Jewish, perhaps? You've bought into the antisemitic idea that Jews are somehow inferior. Pull yourself together man. There is no reason in the world that Israel should tolerate the actions against it by its enemies. And when you say "inhuman response to terrorism" what on earth do you mean? What response would be "human", precisely? Treating terrorsits (Hamas) with respect sounds to me like somre sort of childish ideal -- what is it going to achieve? Do you think the Queensberry rules apply?! The rights and privileges Israel accords to its Arab residents is without precedent (especially in the Arab world, but actually anywhere). To accuse Israel of inhumanity is just silly. And there is nothing excesive -- after all these years -- about Israel's response. Have you been to Israel lately? The idea of those "poor defenceless" Gazaans is preposterous. They are filled with hatred and seething with resentment -- not because of anything Israel has done but because it exists at all. If you don't understand that you must join the likes of latchford et al, who splash around the shallows of bigotry and ignorance spouting their utter nonsense thinking that they actually know what they're talking about.

phil

Mark Rose---re Ed Hussein "Like most sensible people, he is outraged at Israel's excessive and inhuman response to terrorism"------------

I,m sure you realise that most Jews are very upset at this turn of events and have no desire to kill Palestinians ,but if you are to criticise ,as is your right , you must have an alternative strategy .So far nothing has stopped the rockets and Israel has two choices ,except them or try to stop it .If you have a better idea I am sure it would be welcomed ,certainly by me .Meanwhile lie after lie is being promulgated ,including that it is an election ploy -how ridiculous is that when it was hamas who withdrew from the cease fire and started the rockets again.We Jews exercise our moral right to object when we do not agree with policy ,but Mark not when there seems little alternative .

As for Ed Hussein I am very disappointed he has chosen to use such an inflammatory statement when tempers run so high -I have written in the past praising him ,so I will not do what he has done at this time, that is lose my cool and slate him -Both he and the Israelis are understandably(understatement)aggrieved by what is happening to their co-religionists ,and I hope in time he will reflect on what he has said .We all want that elusive peace and suggestions of another Holocaust will not make things easier .

stanley Jerusalem

Steve
January 1st, 2009 3:50pm

Eran Steinberg: Britain didn't bomb civilians during the Falklands war. If we'd have been Israel, we would no doubt have carpeted Buenos Aires.
Well we destroyed the Belgrano when it was steaming AWAY from the battle area. What more do you want?

William

phil: 'prince charming - Mel'[???]. Core blimey, lucky Cindas!!

phil

Slater ,you are right I am moderate ,it is for others to decide whether or not I am sensible .Please check your facts before you start shouting and making your unseemly jokes . .what I told you is true -you have a computer -use it .try this and maybe we will get an apology from you ,then we can get back to being moderate

phil

slater missed it offf the last post

http://www.aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/Jewish_Genes.asp

phil

Mike-are you "the real mike " or another we seem to have problems with those called mike ,some from fiskism ,some just delusion-its always good to know who one is talking to.you will note I have had a lot to say here so I like to know who you are -we do have another one a paranoid professor type from liverpool where normally some sense comes from .,but not when they accuse Stevie G

phil

Steve sorry to miss you off the panto cast -didnt know you had escaped again .I have only one place left its for the nutty professor,are you smart enough for that ?

Ron

John: 'The rights and privileges Israel accords to its Arab residents is without precedent (especially in the Arab world, but actually anywhere).'

I've been to Israel John. You know very well that that is totally untrue and that under the veneer there is oppressive bigotry, discrimination and indeed hatred of the Arab minority. In fact, Livni has recently raised the prospect of [further] deportations and expulsions of the Israeli Arabs, indicating in her statement that they do not belong and are not welcome in the Jewish state.

john doe

Mike: Let's get one thing straight. Mohammed WAS a religious extremist. He was also a lot more but this site wouldn't pass my comment if I go into detail. I've tried before. So much for love of truth and free speech. This is tragic simply because the heart of the matter is Mohammed's behaviour and his teaching concerning the Jews. It's doubly tragic because Melanie is a voice in the wilderness but draws a line when it comes to the nitty gritty, to what's driving all this insane violence and hatred towards Jews and unbelievers.

Straydingo

I have come to the conclusion that all of those that are posting here attacking Israel are simply barking mad - there is not one post that offers a clear argument as to why they think Israel is in the wrong.

This is the problem with the left in that they basis their debates on emotion as they want to be seen as being morally superior vs. actually researching and understanding the historical context of the topic in question.

Personally I see most of the left-wing posters as being no different to that of the Nazi sympathisers in the 1930's.

Paul Hill

Appalling as the standard of "debate" is on this thread it's still not low enough

Where ,oh where ,is "Verity"?

Phil

One thing that the British street has in common with the Arab one is the focus on blaming others.

Augustus

The UN Security Council held an emergency meeting Wednesday night on an Arab request for a binding and enforceable resolution condemning Israel and halting its military attacks on Gaza. Sudan's Ambassador, A.A.Mohamed, said: "Time is of the essence...
because Israel is interested in time so that they can crush Hamas. Time is good for Israel, but for us it is very bad. This is why we want, as quickly as possible, adoption of a resolution."

In other words, the possibility of Israel permanently crushing the Hamas terrorists is an undesirable outcome and bad for Muslims in general. How revealing to see overall Muslim goals and those of the Hamas terrorists brought into such close alignment.

David L

here's a quote from an AP story:

"The bombing targeted 49-year-old Nizar Rayan, ranked among Hamas' top five decision-makers in Gaza. His four-story apartment building crashed to the ground, sending a thick plume of smoke into the air and heavily damaging neighboring buildings. It killed Rayan and 11 others, including two of his four wives and four of his 12 children, Palestinian health officials said. The Muslim faith allows men to have up to four wives."

By IBRAHIM BARZAK and AMY TEIBEL, Associated Press Writers Ibrahim Barzak And Amy Teibel, Associated Press Writers

Winston Smith

John Doe,

I completely agree with all you've said. I've also had many comments not published trying to tell the truth about Islam. Anything that is defamatory to Islam even if it is the truth will fall under Incitement to Religious and Racial Hatred Laws and understandably, the Spectator have to protect themselves. It's wrong, I know, but not the Spectator's fault. It's our despicable government who have sold out to the Saudis.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Slater, if six million Anglo-Saxon Englishmen who think they are originated either from Normandy France, or Germany are not respected their new country "Britain" and assaulted and killed in places like Cornwall or Devon I hope not, I am sure there will be chances some of you will immigrate back to your original places like France and Germany by this time, the difference between you and Jewish are, the Jewish if they are from Europe, Africa or Asia they still have their cultures, languages, looks, dignity and pride and of course they could go back their roots and history after all those years they live in other places, Slater, European Anglo-Saxon man like you who is against religion and God, who lost his culture, who is just angry and unhappy, who is probably left wing liberal what would you do with out Jewish people?

with out Jewish in Britain I think you could be still eating bangers and mash!

Neil Saunders

I don't think much of Slater's argument, but as another Anglo-Saxon Englishman I'd like to point out to Margaret Muller-Johansson that the Anglo-Saxons originally came from Schleswig-Holstein in northern Germany and the Angeln region of southern Denmark.

It was the Normans - a small ruling elite outnumbered by the indigenous English - who came from Normandy, France.

KateA

phil notes: "...Slater it is easy for a fool to speak, .. - DNA ... your ancestors seem to have cleared the shtetls ..."

'Fools', dear phil or 'useful idiots' - one and the same? Always, always 'opinion'; crass, sentimentalised opinion grounded in historical revisionism and Arab/Islamic assertion of 'rights'. What happened, one wonders, to factual, verifiable, evidence?

Mark Rose: "Like most sensible people, he [Husain] is outraged at Israel's excessive and inhuman response to terrorism. I am a Jew, and I agree with Ed."

Ah yes; "excessive and inhumane"! Why do not those pesky Jews just do what they did for centuries and submit? Submit to an enemy - 300 million strong - and dedicated to the genocide of 6 million Jews (Israelis).

Do you Mr Rose, have an opinion on excessive force, over 60 years by Arab countries? 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, attacks by Arab/Muslim neighbours on a sovereign state?

Do you ever denounce Arab callousness re. their so-called 'brothers' and 'sisters'? Can you tell us WHY, Egypt keeps its border with Gaza closed; WHY Jordan keeps the refugees, thousands of whom have Jordanian ancestry, in camps? Do you insist on the same impeccable, self-destructive, morality from Muslims as you demand from Jews?

Are we to disregard historical fact and bow, in awe, to the imperative "I am A Jew"?

Some in-depth study of Jewish history required perhaps? There has always been "A Jew"; or two or three or more, (usually for personal benefit, or strict adherence to religious observance), willing to appease, submit to, and/or collaborate with genocidal enemies.

I am NOT a Jew Mr Rose but a lifelong student of Jewish history. Collaboration and submission resulted only in millions of deaths (Middle East, Russia, mainland Europe and even England) well before Herr Hitler's final solution.

That history is accessible to all who care to avail of facts. Are you so arrogant as to believe a small cohort of contemporary appeasers will have more success with fascist ideologues than your ancestors?

If so, you are either a fool or totally ignorant of the history and ideology of Islam. Israel does not 'occupy' Gaza. Gaza is entirely the responsibility of the Hamas government elected by a majority of the people of that area.

Why then, did the Hamas regime raze to the ground solid stone buildings which might have served as schools, hospitals, civic institutions et al; why did they loot and destroy well-established and productive greenhouses - foundation stones for a viable economy?

There is no documented history of an Arab/Muslim Palestinian people. No language specific to such a people. A serious investigation shows that, after the Six-Day War in which Israel defeated nine Arab states and took legitimate possession of Judea and Samaria, the Arab dwellers in those regions underwent an anthropological miracle and discovered that they were Palestinians.

Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist has written: “Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian? ... we [were] Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag”.

So too Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council:

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".

WHY do apologists for Hamas, Fatah and Hizbullah NEVER engage with these facts? WHY, for such apologists, are Arab/Muslims absolved of all adult responsibility for a situation which they have created and continue to exploit?

Is there no justice for Jews Mr Rose? Have you and your ilk learned nothing from the history of your own people and the bloody history of Arab Islam?

Linda Rivera

Deceitfully called the Arab/Israeli conflict, it's GLOBAL JIHAD Against Israel and the world.

Hamas Charter:
'Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'

The planned Second Holocaust extends far beyond Israel. Leaflets were distributed in major British cities which included slogans such as: "The final hour will not come until the Muslims kill the Jews."

Muslim immigrants welcomed into our countries call for mass murder:
"7/7 on its way"
"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Europe, you will pay, your 9/11 is on its way!"
"Jihad Against European Crusaders"

Violent Muslim Protest Outside the Danish Embassy in London (February 3, 2006). Ferocious screams:
"Death to you, by god."
We want Danish blood."
"May they bomb Denmark! So we can invade their country! And take their wives as war booty!"
Threats are made against Jews: "The army of Mohammad is coming for you."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoMeUcC_M20

Shortly after the 1967 Six-Day War, the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff submitted their report stating Israel can only be defensible if it retains Judea, Samaria, Gaza, the Golan, the tip of the Sinai, Sharm El-Sheikh and all of Jerusalem. Armed with this knowledge, the US/EU are seeking a Second Holocaust via a Muslim terror state reducing TINY Israel at mid-section to 9 miles wide INDEFENSIBLE, Auschwitz borders.

Slater

Margaret Muller-Johansson (assuming you're not phil in disguise): what would we do without Jewish people? I can think of better things to do than eat bangers and mash. Your implied suggestion that but for Jewish people there would be no culture of any worth is plainly ridiculous and predictably racist. You are phil in disguise aren't you?

Ann

phil: looking forward to the panto. Good to see that you've nothing worthwhile to contribute, only attempted soundbites. Ha, ha.

YA

Margaret: those who want proof that you are right, might request Wiki on "British Jews" and "British Muslims".
What a contrast.

"Slater" - even Arab street makes distinction between "terrorists" and "Palestinians"..
As George Clooney asked recently - "Who you are??!!"

Stephanie

phil: Mel as prince charming? Are you making an alternative adult horror/vampire movie? Do you really think this is fit for the kids?

Slater

phil: why should I apologise for exposing your crude and unfounded racial theories?

J Christie

Dear melanie,
'so I gave him the benefit of the doubt, --I was wrong' you wrote, Dear melanie.To be deceived is so easy. To dig out truth is hard work. However I am encouraged, checkout faithfreedom.com.
Keep writing, very appreciative reader.

George

David L,
Nizar Rayan's building was also used as an arms storage, which makes it a legitimate military target. He was warned more than once that his building would be targeted and he chose to ignore the warnings. He, and he alone, is responsible for the deaths of his wives and children.

stanley Jerusalem

David L
Did you have a point to make or am I missing something? Polygamy has never been an issue.

Margaret Muller-Johansson
What's wrong with bangers & mash?
The 'Jewish' brought only fried fish and bagels to the British table. To science and the arts, OK. But to the table, goornisht mit lokshen.

Wide Awake in North America

Thank you, Melanie for speaking the truth. Hopefully your insightful and poignant article will serve to awaken those who are oblivious to the danger that faces us all.

Graeme Thompson

I read Ed Hussein's book to. All very promising stuff, but at the end he waxed lyrical about the glories of Islam, including its 800 year occupation of Analusia. Signs that the old Islamist hadn't actually died within, and now has come back fully to the surface. When Ed Hussain and colleagues founded the Quilliam Foundation (named after a C19 British convert) Islamists took glee in pointing out how Mr Quilliam was one of them, advocating the worldwide Caliphate. No need to change the name it now appears then.

phil

Phil
January 1st, 2009 8:02pm

"One thing that the British street has in common with the Arab one is the focus on blaming others." ---------------I have aquired another impersonator.please use another name .

phil

Welcome back Kate A -well said--hope you are rehearsing for my panto-happy new year .

phil

Rosa we await patiently for your observations ,or did I waste my time --I am used to it .
phil
December 31st, 2008 4:43pm

anglicus

The existence of Israel is based upon a letter from the British Foreign office to a group of international "banksters" who were able to pressurize Britain into supporting their criminal occupation of Palestine:

Foreign Office,
November 2nd, 1917.

Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet:
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely
Arthur James Balfour.

Please would somebody write me a letter giving me part of France?

stanley Jerusalem

anglicus
January 2nd, 2009 12:14pm
Please would somebody write me a letter giving me part of France?

Bearing in mind their behaviour in two World Wars, no.

phil

anglicus-YOU SENT IT IN WHY DONT YOU READ IT !!!!the british government did not give it away -quote!His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this objective"-you van write so I find it difficult to see why you cannot read .-----

But what the hell I give you Provence -HAPPY ?

Margaret's friend

Slater, Margaret is not phil, she is just Margaret, don't worry, you be okay, have a good day!

gary

"The existence of Israel is based upon a letter from the British Foreign office ..."

That's utter rubbish. The existence of Israel is due to Jews knowing how to re-establish the sovereignty of their nation on the land of their source. Britain, then the League of Nations, and later, the UN agreed, but that's all secondary.

Beema

For those of you who are frustrated by the lack of freedom of speech, I recommend www.Jihadwatch.com. excellent website where you can express your opinions and learn much. I guess this post will disappear but it's worth a try.

Dixon

David thomas
January 1st, 2009 1:42am
Possibly unrelated to this particular article but related to Israel and its UK media plight is; youtube.com/user/idfnadesk - a youtube group set up by the IDF to ensure that proof gets out of Israel clean, rather than with the typical anti-Israeli bias that gets put on things by many of the UKs media agencies - starting with the BBC and ending goodness knows where. It's very indicative of Israels plight that it has to create such things and will hopefully serve as a tool that can bring some balance to the UKs managed exposure to Israels actions. Like all good viral it probably depends on having the link sent on by all who care - maybe it's one way of getting the truth out?"

According to Charles Johnson, for his sins still spreading some word, there is an organised "flag it up" campaign against the IDF youtube videos and at least one...showing arms caches exploding after a hit triggers them... has been removed by the people running that site.

So its not even possible for Israel to use the "uncensored" internet without being censored.

Dixon

What would happen if we applied the logic of the anti-Israel lobby to Britain? Could we not claim to be "under occupation". If only 1% of British Muslims are Jihadist sympathising "militants" , thats more than 20,000. In other words, parts of Britain are "under occupation" by a hostile army of people who have come here from all over the world but most certainly cannot claim this land to be legitimately "theirs".

Its remarkable how those who adopt the fashionable opinion of the day seem incapable of seeing the inconsistancies in those opinions. According to the rubric that has it Hamas is in the right, then the BNP ( and its most violent of followers ) would also be justified! If "nationalism" is bad for anyone anywhere else in the world, how come its a virtue when exhibited in its most extreme, black uniformed, goose-stepping form by a group of people in a bit of the Mid East?

Consistency is a fine thing, if you can find it in the "thinking" of the left, then it is like gold-dust.

Straydingo

KateA,

That was an excellent post and I think the below quote you included plainly illustrates what it is the Israelis are up against:

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel"

Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council

The problem is that the MSM and Academics that are spewing out the venomous lies are not interested in the truth.

phil

ann and stephanie .sorry don't be bitter you can have parts -I forgot the ugly sisters ----

.ann one thing I am sure of is that you are not the ann who used to regularly correspond with me -that lady new right from wrong even if we did not agree on how she said it.so far all we have heard from you is a pathetic snipe on a very serious thread -quite pathetic.

john doe

This song by Dylan about Israel increases in relevance, so I'll post it again with appropriate accompanying images and the lyrics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ENZZrYe_rg&feature=related

phil

Margaret Muller-Johansson-many of us here will join me in hoping you are not upset by the ignorant ones here like slater.your opinions are both valuable and necessary on a thread where people exercise their democratic right to free speech -we have a price to pay for that and it includes slater and his kind .we have survived much worse .in fact my grandmother came from one of those shtetls that give him such amusement, that grandma produced .professors ,doctors ,lawyers, accountants -and even a psychiatrist ,who could have been of assistance to slater .--. his ancestors produced him :) not much for all those years .

happy new year and keep posting

phil

Slater
January 1st, 2009 11:55pm

""phil: why should I apologise for exposing your crude and unfounded racial theories?""

slater I was not expecting you to -it was just a bait to show what an ignorant man you are -one who is a poor excuse for an opponent and a waste of my time .

George Steiner

Those of you arguing against Israel should rejoice. This incompetent Israeli government will loose this war just as they lost the last one. Hamas will claim an important victory. Its 15,000 man army is intact, 95% of its arsenal of rockets is intact. A few hundred Palestinian dead don’t count a fig to the martyrdom vendors. The Brits and the Europeans will rebuild the destroyed buildings. With every lost war Israel will find it ever more difficult to win the next one. But Melanie Phillips will be able to write lots of indignant postings with the same devastating effect as the last one.

Slater

phil: another soundbite from you, with all the arrogance of one who knows nothing, yet thinks he knows everything. Ignorance is bliss: is that your motto? I don't know why I waste MY time.

Ann

phil: I am not the 'ann' of whom you were so fond and with whom you have previously corresponded on this blog re your 'j-dating' experiences (remember everybody?). Anyway, how you can accuse others here of 'pathetic snipes' is beyond the rest of us (see your own posts dear). And then you pontificate about this being a 'very serious thread' (so why are you here?). Happy shabbas.

Koestler

Could someone tell phil that the Jewish people were once victims of the sort of racial bloodline theory which he now propagates. If he really is Jewish - which I doubt - rather than wanting to make things worse for Jews, could he please just consider the implications of some of his rants?

Mark

We're very fortunate to have someone as eloquent and well read as you to write like this Melanie. Thank you.

KateA

"The existence of Israel is based .. international "banksters" who were able to pressurize Britain into supporting their criminal occupation of Palestine"

Not just "rubbish" Gary but perpetuation of the 30s libel originating with Herr Goebbels:

"The Jews wanted war, and now they have it .... If international finance Jewry should succeed in plunging the world into war, the result will be not the Bolshevization of the world and thereby the victory of the Jews, but rather the destruction of the Jewish race in Europe." (The Jews are Guilty! by Joseph Goebbels 1941).

Koestler*

phil
I am NOT the author of the 6.48pm post - someone is using my posting name. I am adding an asterisk after my name on this thread - I had no intention of commenting on this thread - and someone is now using my name to spread confusion. I have no comment to make on what you are discussing - so whoever is making it look as though I do pleases desist.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Thank You phil, I am back now,
I admire Jewish people, they are such a clever people

Happy New Year to you too!

hadrian

Mel, this is an excellent critique of the sadly shallow thinking that passes for serious analysis on the part of so many Westerners.If there ever were ( God forbid!) another jewish genocide and Israel destroyed it'd be cold comfort to know there'd be a huge blanket of unutterable guilt over so many of the West's 'intelligentsia'.
As for de-radicalising Islam, I think you can forget it. Self righteous fanaticism is built into it.If they are to remain Moslem the best one can do is hope most moslems will realise their own self interest is best preserved by ignoring large swathes of their religion and quietly following moderate Western values.

Catherine

After watching FOX News and their biased slant for the Israeli attackers, and their risible attempt to justify the Israeli airforce's indescriminate bombing and murder of civilians in Gaza, it was a breath of fresh air to watch the BBC News and see reality.

Keep it up Auntie!

TT

Catherine, thanks for your really funny post. Excellent satire, congratulations! You could get a writing job at the BBC. (Actually, you probably already have one.)

Derek

What Englishmen would appreciate from Melanie Phillips would be an article setting out her ideas on what can be done by us as individuals to roll back the numbers and influence of the wrong-siders in our country who so shame the rest of us.

James Michael Price

I listened to the BBC's "external services" since I was a teenager, four decades ago. The BBC was not always reflexively defamatory of Israel, it became that way after the oil embargo of 1973, when oil dependence and recycled petrodollars re-sculptured world opinion and behavior towards Israel. When Margaret Thatcher's austerity program cut the government's subsidy to the BBC, the Saudi royal family stepped in with a lucrative contract for the BBC to do radio and television broadcasting in the kingdom in newly built, state-of-the-art studios and other sweet business deals on top of that. The BBC obligingly stuck it to Israel over the following 35 years with relentless, gross distortions of the Arab-Israeli conflict. It is one of the top petrodollar whores on the planet, but by no means the only one.

People like Catherine are refreshed by listening to the predictable, daily evisceration of Israel. Arabs around the world are refreshed daily by the ugliest racist hate since the publication of Der Stuermer, the Nazi newspaper of record, typically mimicking it. And an oil-dependent world continues to milk this conflict for every political and financial advantage they can squeeze out of it. Clearly, a real and lasting peace is only five more Israeli confidence-building concessions away.

Ethan II

The continuing attacks on Israel from those who claim to favour civilised values are based on a perverse inversion of reality.

When theocratic devotees of a Jihadist death cult launch murderous attacks on Israeli civilians, the fashionable approach is to ‘understand’ these criminal actions. And when Israel fights back against this violence being directed at its civilian population it encounters a firestorm of criticism and abuse, being accused of ‘racism’ and painted as a bloodthirsty monster that delights in ’slaughtering’ and ‘massacring’ women and children.

According to the UN, about 1/4 of those Palestinians who have been killed or injured in the Israeli air campaign are civiians. That means 3/4 of them are not c ivilians, they are Hamas soldiers. That is hardly "indiscriminate bombing."

But what about the civilian casualties?

Here is what the political philosopher Michael Walzer wrote about what we are witnessing:

When Palestinian militants launch rocket attacks intentionally from within civilian Palestinian areas intentionally targetting Israeli civilians, they are themselves responsible--and no one else is (repeat: no one else is)--for the civilian deaths caused by Israeli counterfire.

That says it all, and in a nutshell.

Ethan II

Anyone truly interested in seeing the face of Islam that we are confronting should check out the following:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Xl68kP4wo.

This shows a pro-Hamas demonstration in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. Watch the fat, bearded, fanatical imam leading these people in "prayer", followed by their shouts of--get this--"Jews, to the ovens! Jews, go to the ovens!!"

I am now making this up, it is a real video, and it should shock us all.

Ethan II

Oops, Sorry! That last sentence should be:

I am NOT making this up. (!!)

Repeat, everyone should go see this video clip:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Xl68kP4wo

You will be horrified. Again, this is Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, USA

Frank P

For those who have a genuine interest in understanding the aims and objectives of Hamas, I commend another seminal piece today on the American Thinker blog by Andrew G Bostom - "Confronting Hamas' Genocidal Jew-Hatred." I doubt it will open the closed minds of the trolls who have been brainwashed by the Palestinian propagandists that seem to have taken over the Western media, but here it is:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/01/confronting_hamas_genocidal_je.html

Frank P

Another riveting link:

http://www.andrewbostom.org/content/view/79/56/

phil

Koestler* I know we do not agree on some things but I was surprised at the disgusting outurst above -I thought it wasnt your style and I am happy to hear it was not you -thank you .there is a difference, we argue about our passionate beliefs ,these others come here just to be nasty with no platform other than hate.

phil

Margaret Muller-Johansson
:):)-I think we have rid ourselves of slater now ,but you will see we have other fools to deal with -just keep smiling -they only amuse each other and are rehearsing for my panto .

Iana

Thank you Melanie - I feel so isolated among my socialist/lefty/intellectual 'friends'. Reading your blog has given me strength. And thank you KateA for an extremely clear, calm and insightful explanation.

Augustus

UNRWA (the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees in the Near East) is a large UN organization which gives a lot of aid to Palestinians in Gaza, on the West Bank, in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. It employs 29,000 people. In the Advisory Commission there are Australians, Canadians, Danish, Dutch, British, Spanish, Saudis etc. 95% of its budget comes from governments and the EU. In 2008 it had a budget of US$542m. This figure is on top of the individual government donations around the world to Palestinians.

So we are all contributing with our taxes to keeping the conflict going, for in normal circumstances the weaker party would have sat at the negotiating table long ago.
But the Palestinians in Gaza, and elsewhere, have no need to negotiate, thanks to our tax money. Why are we exactly all rewarding the Palestinians with our taxes? So that they can improve their rockets? It is no wonder that we, or any other country in the EU, gains any respect from Israel.

Frank P

James Michael Price: Your brief, breath of fresh air midst the miasma of baleful bias that pervades the MSM coverage of the current ME eruption (and the echoes of it resounding off the dense skulls of the trolls who infest this blog for obvious reasons) is timely and refreshing. On this early January day it reinforces the promise of the sun shining through my den double glazing. Thank you. It is good to know that are patches of perspicacity within your generation. I for one will be watching for more input from you James. As you are obviously at that time of life when you are actiively engaged in important matters, I hope you will be able to find the time to return with your coruscating snippets. Price according to value is a rare phenomenon these days!

phil

ann do you want the part or not? -you don't seem to have much else to do -btw what is j-dating ?-I would appreciate the reference and where I posted it if in fact I did.--Do you have anything constructive to say ?or are you just one of those that goes to the hairdresser and rings her friends after weddings saying how awful the food was ?just asking . Please try and find the other Anne ,she was intelligent if a trifle belligerent,and she did actually have opinions ,mostly that I agree with ,just the tone I did not like .If you read here you will see I try to correspond with intelligent people whose opinions differ from mine ,but I also will write back just as rudely to people like you who have nothing to offer us except sarcasm -.You amuse me so don't worry I am not offended, but your sarcasm about the Sabbath is not appreciated .You can continue you're childishness ,that is the beauty of the Speccy they tolerate most people .

Adam B.

Ethan ii, it is utterly horrifying, and very scary. This is the mentality Israel (and the West) is up against. Such moments show you what these fanatics really think.

gary

The biggest mistake Israeli spokespersons keep making is to give lengthy explanations. They should just tell all the big name international diplomats - "You know what's going on. Stop your pretence and leave us alone. Pick some other country to use as a pawn for your power games."

Grumpy the Golani

Watching the coverage of the pro-pali march taking place in your capital, lead by a broken down old pop singer, a dangerously deranged ex mayor (flying his true/opportunist colours) and the always entertaining part Irish/part Scot/part rabid hyena gorgeous george galloway (really lends gravitas to the occasion)not to mention the self hating Jew - Sayle.

Oh Engerland - how the mighty has fallen.Once the home of a brave people ......now home to whatever flotsam and jetsam will march in a 'rent a crowd'.

At the end of the day, it will be left to those few nations still with the guts and backbone to face down islamofacism - whether in the back alleys of gaza/bin jabeil/baghdad, missile sites in iraq and syria or possibly facing down the ultimate home of terror-iran.

Sleep well or sleep walk through all of this.

Raj

Things will only change when Christians accept that the 'return' of the Jews to Palestine has not brought about and is not going to bring about the return of the messiah and world peace as forecast in the Book of Revelations. Once this aspect of religious fundamentalism (upon which probably most of the current support for Israel is based) is disposed of - and it will be eventually - then we will see reason. And Israel will have no more useful idiots in the US/UK to exploit.

Colin Blake

When the Serbs did this to the Croats, Bosnians and Kosovans, the world protested and took action. Why is it that Israel gets away with it scott-free? Does anybody really subscribe to the notion that Israel is still a weak, helpless little David cornered by the mighty, powerful Arab Goliath? Yes if you read Melanie Phillips.

Simon

Margaret: re contributions by a certain group (without which we'd be eating bangers and mash), ever heard of the Blind Beggar gang, the Bessarbians, Jack Spott, the Krays et al (I could go on)?

Stephanie

Is this Melanie Phillips' blog or phil's blog or are they one and the same? He always seems to be here, waiting, creeping, popping up ....

Wallace

What is Disproportionate force? Is Gaza another Guernica? Nonsense.

The charge that Israel uses disproportionate force keeps resurfacing whenever it has to defend its citizens from non-state terrorist organizations and the rocket attacks they perpetrate. The same charge was used against the United States when it responded to the attack of 9/11. From a purely legal perspective, Israel's current military actions in Gaza are on solid ground. According to international law, Israel is not required to calibrate its use of force precisely according to the size and range of the weaponry used against it For example, Israel is not expected to make Kassam rockets and lob them back into Gaza.
When international legal experts use the term "disproportionate use of force," they have a very precise meaning in mind. As the President of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague, Rosalyn Higgins, has noted, proportionality "cannot be in relation to any specific prior injury - it has to be in relation to the overall legitimate objective of ending the aggression." In other words, if a state, like Israel, is facing aggression, then proportionality addresses whether force was specifically used by Israel to bring an end to the armed attack against it. By implication, force becomes excessive if it is employed for another purpose, like causing unnecessary harm to civilians. For example, Israel could use a nuclear bomb to deal with the problem of Gaza; but that would be disproportionate since it is likely to be able to end the aggression with conventional weapons. The pivotal factor determining whether force is excessive is the intent of the military commander. In particular, one has to assess what was the commander's intent regarding collateral civilian damage.

Paraphrased from the following:
http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=1&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=378&PID=0&IID=2808&TTL=Did_Israel_Use_“Disproportionate_Force”_in_Gaza?

Augustus

Israel has now invaded Gaza with land troops. 'So fari, so goodi'.

Markus

Islamofascism? How about Judeofascism, as currently imposed on Gaza and practised avidly on this blog?

Rob

"Ed Husain argues that this war will strengthen Hamas in Gaza and radicalise yet more Muslims. It is surely rather more likely that many Palestinians, who have themselves been terrorised by Hamas, will blame Hamas for the current situation, just as Fatah and Egypt have done"

I'm sorry Melanie, but this is supremely naive. Human beings are not rational, especially when angered. There are many Palestinians who now loathe Hamas- but there loathing of Hamas will be easily outweighed by their loathing of Israel. Once Israel ends this military attack (which I do think is tragic but necessary) it needs to end the blockade which is fermenting so much insanity in Gaza.

Straydingo

Grumpy the Golani,

I live in London and I am ashamed that fellow Londoners took part in the farce.

Where are all these protestors when it comes to the tens of thousands either dying or suffering in Sudan, Zimbabwe etc....Oh that’s right they can’t blame Israel or the US whilst ignoring the uncomfortable truth that most of the conflicts going on the world have one common denominator - “Islam”

Straydingo

Markus,
Easy to deliver a one liner like that - harder to deliver an informed opinion which lays out a clear point(s) which can then be weighed and debated by the collective.

Let me guess your primary sources of information (misinformation) when formulating your thoughts (I’m being generous) is the BBC & the Guardian.

In my humble opinion posts like yours are nothing more than senseless graffiti.

Ian Goff

Colin Blake: quite right. Indeed, the non-Serb factions in former Yugoslavia were much, much better armed, trained and able to fight than the Palestinians are now, yet the world still, rightfully, helped them resist the Serbs. It does seem that Israel can be as cowardly and callous as it likes and get away with it. Hope it makes them feel good.

Straydingo

Rob,
"Ed Husain argues that this war will strengthen Hamas in Gaza and radicalise yet more Muslims”
This old and much worn-out argument put forward by the likes of Ed Husain is ridicules.

The Allies during WW2 fire bombed German cites and dropped nukes on two Japanese cities, intentionally targeting civilians, so as to break the backs of our enemies.
However, since the close of WW2 there has never been a case of German or Japanese Suicides bombers targeting US or UK civilian targets as a reprisal for these events.

This type of argument has been cooked up by an Islamist propaganda guru back in the 90’s then feed to the MSM who loved it as it gave them a simple story that could be delivered within a 30 second sound bite.

Kate

I live in London and today I proudly marched with many other sane decent people to protest against Israel's vicious attack on civilians--men, women and children.

Felicitas

Markus just like your name what are you talking about? real people practise this blog, if you don't like it you could always go somewhere else

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Simon, yes I have heard those guys they were true heroes who could blow your head off,
Did you heard Charles John Huffam Dickens, not David Beckham?

Milan

I hope that people will now boycott the forthcoming, totally inappropriate film 'Defiance'. Why is it we allow those people to control the media and film industry?

Brian Moshe

In his post above Simon
January 3rd, 2009 6:05pm
writes:(quote) "Margaret: re contributions by a certain group (without which we'd be eating bangers and mash), ever heard of the Blind Beggar gang, the Bessarbians, Jack Spott, the Krays et al (I could go on)?"(end of quote)

I am aware that your comments are primarily addressed to Margaret but I do not understand exactly what you mean here? Are you suggesting that the names above are all Jewish or what?

If so you are highly misleading; you have been reading too many books about East End gansters from long ago.

The Krays were not Jewish (although one of their victims was); and who were the members of the Blind Beggar gang supposed to be?

Can you name any of the Bessarbian gang? Tell us when they operated and where?

Jack Spott(sic) was a Jew and went by the name of Jack Spot Comer. He slashed the face of William Joyce aka 'Lord Haw Haw' as the latter walked beside Mosley as they led the infamous 1936 anti-Jewish Blackshirt march into Cable Street (Stepney, London).

Seventy two years later and we are again seeing anti-Jewish marches through London. As one of the posters on the previous thread - Gil - starkly writes of witnessing the anti-Israel marchers in Kensington going to the Israeli embassy earlier this week, clearly suggesting it was frightening to witness such hate.

No doubt some of the anti-semitic posters and left-wing propagandists who have discovered Melanie's blog here in recent weeks would argue that London has a proud and long democratic tradition of allowing marches and demonstrations. What few will know is that about four years ago and almost unreported (although astonishingly I read this in the Guardian), a group of elderly Jewish ex-servicemen, some WW2 veterans, and all wearing their medals, were attacked as they marched down Cable Street.

They were attacked not by anti-Jewish neo-nazis (or even old Mosleyite survivors), but by young Bangladeshi-East Ender youths and men (I refuse to call them British).

In 2005, when the Guardian writer, Jonathan Freedland, went to Vallance Road in Bethnal Green,in the East End of London (yes, Simon, that's where the Kray twins and their non-Jewish family used to live)to attend a commemoration ceremony marking the sixtieth anniversary of the last German V2 rocket to fall on England in WW2, he was doing so in memory of his aunt who was killed in that raid.

The block of flats where she lived was mainly occupied by Jews and it was ironic that Hitler's last bombing fatalities in England were nearly all Jews.

A rabbi was among those leading the memorial ceremony, although there was a clergyman and local worthies as well as relatives of the dead.

One would have expected the residents of the replacement blocks of flats to have shown some respect for what was happening. Unfortunately no such feelings were shown. The residents of the block and those around are now mainly of Bangladeshi Muslim identity. The sight of a rabbi and some obvious Jews standing in Vallance Road was altogether too much for these residents: they showered everyone with stones and other missiles. The ceremony had to be aborted.

This is the state Britain has descended into. I think of this insult to the dead of that V2 rocket and those brave old soldiers attacked in Cable Street when I see film of shouting thugs marching through London on behalf of Hamas.

Amanda

Kate: well done, it's good to see that there are some truly decent, generous people writing on this blog.

Marian C

Yet another great article by you Melanie. Keep up the good work.
Well said also to Grumpy the Golani, Frank P and especially those by Phil.
I must say, I am disgusted by the biased reporting from the BBC

Winston Smith

Kate(January 3rd, 2009 8:18pm)

I also suppose you were, like the rest of the socialists/left wingers/communists doing absolutely nothing when Hamas were firing rocket after rocket into Israel? I suppose you also turned a blind eye as well when suicide bombers were blowing themselves up killing men, women and children in Israel?
Let's just hope the UK doesn't become Islamised as you'll be wishing for Israeli attacks on the UK to free you, only they will never come.

HarleyDavidson

What a whining bunch of Muslim terrorists loving morons on this blog. 3000 rockets fired from Gaza in 08 alone and yet you sit at home and support this madness? What is wrong with you lot?

Let me ask you, did the Palestinians begin building the state that is supposedly their great national aim? No. No roads, no industry, no courts, no civil society at all. The flourishing greenhouses that Israel left behind for the Palestinians were destroyed and abandoned. Instead, Gaza's Iranian-sponsored rulers have devoted all their resources to turning it into a terror base -- importing weapons, training terrorists, building tunnels with which to kidnap Israelis on the other side. And of course firing rockets unceasingly.

In the Middle East, as elsewhere, the only way one defeats foes is with disproportionate force -- not with truces, cease fires, humanitarian aid, or vows that the safety of enemy civilians is the primary concern. In the Middle East, as elsewhere, one defeats enemies not by winning their hearts and minds, but by crushing them. And in the Middle East, as elsewhere, while one can begin a war with airpower, one can end it only with troops on the ground.

God speed, Israel! You do what you must and WE will deal with the terrorists loving idiots on these and other blogs where ever we find these cowards!

Adam B.

Milan - "those people"?

Now we really see your true colours, and the colours, I suspect, of most Israel bashers.

Ed

HarleyDavidson: 'Let me ask you, did the Palestinians begin building the state that is supposedly their great national aim? No. No roads, no industry, no courts, no civil society at all.'

Bearing in mind that Gaza has been subject to a punishing economic blockade ever since the Israeli withdrawal, is it any wonder that little progress has been made?

Adam B.

Ian Goff and Colin Blake, what a ridiculous comparison. Up to 300,000 people were killed in the break-up of Yugoslavia, mostly civilians. Around 400 have been killed in Gaza, over 300 of whom were Hamas terrorists, in a conflict initiated by Hamas.

Israel

Straydingo:

"Where are all these protestors when it comes to the tens of thousands either dying or suffering in Sudan, Zimbabwe etc...."

The protesters were on the streets calling for action. Probably the reason YOU didn't notice them was because they were not blaming the US or Israel. I am interested (only in the mildest terms of the word) in your explanation in how Islam is provoking the crisis in Zimbabwe. It's a pity you didn't mention the protests about Chad or Congo either. Then again that wouldn't make your point, would it?

bob

"Gaza has been subject to a punishing economic blockade ever since the Israeli withdrawal..."

Rubbish. Philanthropists handed them a $100 million pa greenhouse veg industry. Enough for all of them to be rich. They are scorpions stinging the backs of the frogs they ride the flood on -

Their 'own' people Fataah and Egypt want Hamas eliminated more than anyone (and are likely assisting Israel to this end). Who knows them better? Yet British idiots support them. Hullo? What planet are you on?

Straydingo

Israel,

In respect to my earlier post your are referring to I was not trying to draw a direct link with Islam and the troubles in Zimbabwe (although I can now see why you made that conclusion).

The point I was trying to make is that we have not seen the same level of global protests (and subsequent media coverage) of the scale that occurred over the weekend when it comes to Zim, Sudan, Chad etc.

You say that the protesters have been on the streets when it comes to Zim, Chad and Sudan – well I can tell you as someone that has family living in Zim that there is and nor has there never been the constant level of global attention given to the crisis facing Zimbabweans on a daily basis....the same can be said of Sudan where HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of CIVILIANS have been butchered – the scale of disasters in these two countries alone far out way that of the topic that is being debated here and do warrant the label “humanitarian disasters”.
It is my observation that we only ever seem to see the passions and emotions of the collective leftwing socialist/liberals being unleashed when it comes to topics in which the US, Israel or Western civilisation as a whole can somehow be blamed for the wrongs of the world.

Straydingo

Israel,
I have a question for you and anyone else who would welcome like to offer an answer:
“What is the one common denominator that links current conflicts or threats of conflict within these countries – Iraq, Sudan, Philippines, Algeria, Indonesia, China, India, Pakistan, Caucasus (Chechnya), Spain, USA, Palestine, Turkey, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Netherlands, Serbia, Macedonia....?

anglicus

Hey cheers phil, I'll take Normandy as well. Obviously I didn’t write it, I was just reporting some facts, unlike other pontificates on here. Please use a spellchecker in future.

phil

Stephanie
January 3rd, 2009 6:07pm

""Is this Melanie Phillips' blog or phil's blog or are they one and the same? He always seems to be here, waiting, creeping, poppingup-"" ---------------------------------------

Sadly it is because those like you have to be answered lest some assume you are right-I wish more people put your remarks where they deserve and then we could spend our time writing constructively ,until then I will continue to put your thoughts in the garbage bin -now if you do not mind I will go back to thinking about the desperate state both the Israelis and Palestinians find themselves in ,not least because of idiots like you who stoke the fires ,march for terrorists and never are seen protesting the attacks by hamas ,hesbollah and Islamic extremism

phil

anglicus, I do use a spellchecker but not on that occasion and c is next to v :)
I could offer you Burgundy too but you will have to read the statement that you sent in to qualify .Let me know I will see if Henry V is using email

Abdul Rahman

Yet another misinformed rant from the neo conservative sympathiser, Mellanie Phillips.

She likes to talk about ¡§civilisation¡¨ but obviously disagrees with the institutions which are responsible for the formation of many western countries, of which ¡¥democracy¡¦ is the most important. No matter how much disinformation she places in her article, she cannot deny the fact that Hamas were elected under the guise of international observers under the leadership of Jimmy Carter. Feel free to check any record for that piece of factual history!

¡§It is surely rather more likely that many Palestinians, who have themselves been terrorised by Hamas, will blame Hamas for the current situation, just as Fatah and Egypt have done.¡¨

¡§Fatah and Egypt¡¨ „³ Melanie obviously believes that Fatah and Egypt are great bastions of democracy, who champion human rights and respect rule of law. Frankly laughable!

¡§On the contrary, they tried to take the Jews¡¦ homeland from them by force ¡V and are still trying¡¨

You must have your head in the sand. Or maybe the sand in your head has paralysed your ability to read history. There are whole nations of Jewish people who have lived in that region since the time of the caliphate rule, that will testify to the opposite of what you have ¡¥conjectured¡¦.

¡§The fact that so many among Britain¡¦s educated class think like this means that they too are on the wrong side in the great battle to defend civilisation.¡¨

This sentence, even though she studied at Oxford, shows her insecurity around intellectual academics who have spent a lifetime understanding the history. You are not at their level and with your tabloid style conjecture, will never be at their level.

Ronnie

Augustus, somewhat belatedly, I wonder if anyone asked the Sudanese ambassador to the UN how much more time his government needed to kill all the people in Darfur?

KateA

Mr Rahman: Melanie Phillips is well able to speak for herself and requires no defence from me; suffice to say you exhibit an amusing deficit in English comprehension.

"No matter how much disinformation she places in her article, she cannot deny the fact that Hamas were elected under the guise of international observers under the leadership of Jimmy Carter."

INDEED - as you write "under the GUISE of" competence in the English language.

Further you opine: "Melanie obviously believes that Fatah and Egypt are great bastions of democracy, who champion human rights and respect rule of law."

Wrong. The 'record' (over and over again) shows such inference to be totally incorrect. Only a rigidly literal 'translation' devoid of context, or previous reference, could lead to such a conclusion.

Ms Phillips, and many others here, are TOO well aware of the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab/Muslim states; nearly 1 million between 1948 and 1960. Jews and their descendants, indigenous to the region for 2,000 years, driven out by Muslim pogroms.

Oh dear - resort to personal, uninformed insult:

"... even though she studied at Oxford, shows her insecurity around intellectual academics who have spent a lifetime understanding the history. You are not at their level ..."

Really? I have ‘spent a lifetime’ in third level education/teaching/lecturing, ‘understanding history’, ergo philosophy, theology and the human condition. No discipline is vacuum-sealed. Whatever the self-interested perspective, you are quite wrong and clearly misled by the woeful dumbing-down of 'hard'
scholarship in Britain over the past 30 years.

Ms Phillilps on the other hand, is accurate in her assessment of the great number of so-called "intellectual academics" infected by a politically correct, anti-historical revisionism, and post-colonial ‘guilt’. They display NO comprehension of the history, tenets, ambitions or the violent, threatening and destructive nature of ideological Islam world-wide.

‘Orientalists’ to the last man and woman – I presume you are familiar with Edward Said – such people patronise the 'oriental' with a euphemistic ‘gloss’. Some were the ‘useful idiots’ of the Cold War; the new generation, are the ignorant, appeasing apologists for Islam.

This 'thanks be to God' does not apply to all. There is still a small, rigorous core of 'intellectuals' who have not abandoned strict adherence to textual evidence. One such is Dr Denis MacEoin at
http://mid-eastplus.blogspot.com/

a scholar who specializes in Arab languages and culture, highly qualified and able to draw on personal experience of teaching at University level in the ME. I recommend a close reading.

Martina

Interesting, another member of Quilliam also had trouble naming the ideology as pointed out in this article several months ago Former Islamic extremist renounces ideology - but doesn’t name it

phil

Kate A as always you continue to amaze me -wondeful !

Grace D

Kate 8.18 Do you not realize that Hamas has instituted the moat vile version of Sharia. So you have marched for the abuse of women and children. You have marched for stonings ,and amputations, and turning a blind eye to killing females for "honor" even when it is a cover up for rape or incest. You have marched for executions including the execution of the under 18s. You have marched for the legality of child marriage. You have even marched for turning a blind eye to female genital mutilation which has been known to happen in Palestine. You have marched for Polygamy which will endlessly produce the very high birth rate that occurs in Palestine and the attendent poverty and overcrowding. You have marched for men whose ego requires their wives and small children to die with them.
This whole conflict is about the difference between modern thinking and medievalism.
Patriarchal societies do not and cannot truly protect women and children. When women are damaged they are not emotionally available to their children and they are quite often cruel. Where studies have been done domestic and family violence is rife.
Everyone feels
sadness and sympathy in terrible times but the Islamist system produces malignant narcissists . These are as dangerous in their violent egocentricity as any instigator of any genocide. We need to be very clear who deserves support.
Leaders and diplomats have to be able to put aside their own feelings and speak politely to people they can't stand. Hamas is not capable of doing this. They are narcissists and perpetual adolescents. It is always my gang will kick your gang, nothing more useful or mature than that.

Abdul Rahman

KateA. It seems that the neo conservative lens, with which Melanie Phillips & Co view the world, is something you share as it is apparent in every nuance emanating from your text.

“INDEED - as you write "under the GUISE of" competence in the English language.”

To actually understand the significance of this point, please see:

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/01/carter.hamas/index.html
“Jimmy Carter (Ex Us President): Give Hamas a chance”
“He [Carter] said Hamas is "highly disciplined" and capable of keeping any promise of nonviolence it might make.”

“Wrong. The 'record' (over and over again) shows such inference to be totally incorrect”

Because you are blinded by such ideological thinking, you fail to see the obvious point being made.

The article states:

“It is surely rather more likely that many Palestinians, who have themselves been terrorised by Hamas, will blame Hamas for the current situation, just as Fatah and Egypt have done”

She references Fatah and Egypt to justify an implicit point within the paragraph, without any evidence to back up the statement. Fatah and Egypt are allies of Israel. This is clear, unless you have your head in the sand. They want the democratically elected Hamas out of Gaza as Hamas is at odds with their interests. So for the author to quote Egypt and Fatah to justify a point, shows how naïve she is. But like you implied, she is not naïve, so if she is not naïve, she has mentioned a corrupt group and a dictatorial government in an implicitly supportive context. The point that was made showed irony – which obviously your ideologically clouded intellect failed to grasp.

“Ms Phillilps on the other hand, is accurate in her assessment of the great number of so-called "intellectual academics" infected by a politically correct, anti-historical revisionism, and post-colonial ‘guilt’. They display NO comprehension of the history, tenets, ambitions or the violent, threatening and destructive nature of ideological Islam world-wide.”

“the new generation, are the ignorant, appeasing apologists for Islam”

You obviously have not studied Islam. That is clear as day. This is evident with your statement: “violent, threatening and destructive nature of ideological Islam world-wide”. This is the same language used by the neo-conservative ilk and the fascist red knecks of Southern America. With this understanding you probably believe that George W Bush was actually waging a war on “terror” and that the “Crusade” was a real Crusade. Wake up and smell the “desert” KateA. Your narcissistic hatred, for that which you have evidently not studied, shows your shallow nature however glossed it may appear.

Mark Jolley

M Phillips claims that most of those killed were Hamas fighters and quotes the UN. Let me correct this yet again fallacy by our right-wing author. The UN in Gaza only considered women and children (under 18) civilians. I.e, any male over 18 is considered a combatant! Having said that are 400+ children OK to bomd and burn with white sulphur? Also M Phillips claims Israel acted in self-defense. Israel and Egyptian put Gaza under a murderous seige for the last two years and Israel assassinated no less than 26 Palestinian leaders during the last 6 month alone despite the truce!

Mark Jolley

Kate, you suggested we check Denis MacEoin! why do people insist on reading books that serve nothing but reinforce their opinions (in your case prejedice!)? Well, read thru this to find out about this ex-Bahai and "pro-Israel" author. Look for the bit about his plagiarism too!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_MacEoin

Stephen

In your last sentence there's something interesting said: You accuse some people with whom you disagree of "moral confusion."

If there were actual moral clarity, we wouldn't be bickering now, would we? What you don't admit as a possibility is that there are two competing moral claims, each with justice and injustice on its side. Both are right and wrong. So how do we go about settling it? There's only one way and it's been known for a long time.

"Justice is the interest of the stronger." We just don't yet know which it will be. It is for this reason that I refuse to criticize either side, but I'm rooting for Israel as the underdog. Their situation looks hopeless.

One thing that's apparent from all that's gone on is that there is no solution.
There's no One State nor Two State Solution. There will only be a slow, grinding carnage. There's no moral clarity to be found, and what resembles it is a mirage.