Decency v bigotry
I have been absolutely overwhelmed by messages pouring in following my column in the Daily Mail today on the Gaza crisis. From these messages I have learned the following:
There is a large groundswell of support for Israel and detestation of Hamas; this is evident among people who are neither Jews nor evangelical Christians (who are usually pro-Israel) and have had no particular view about the Middle East one way or another. This in my view is a significant shift of opinion towards Israel amongst ordinary people.
There is a large groundswell of fury at the BBC in particular but also the print media for what people perceive to be morally bankrupt reporting, with gross prejudice against Israel and the ruthless delivery of Hamas propaganda which is presenting the mass killers of both Israelis and Palestinians as the victims of Israeli aggression and airbrushing the crimes of Hamas out of the picture altogether.
There is huge ignorance and bewilderment about the most basic and fundamental facts about Israel and the Middle East impasse, and considerable anger that the media has either misled people about it all or left them in ignorance.
There is an unshakeable and utterly lethal belief amongst British Muslims in an entirely false view of Middle East history, fed not just by Arab and Muslim propaganda but also by Israel-hating Israeli academics on the Pilgerite Israeli left, resulting in spitting hatred of Israel which is represented – along with its supporters -- in demonic terms. The historic resonance is unmistakeable -- and chilling.
To give you a flavour, here are some extracts from just a few of these messages (all as far as I can see from non-Jews):
*It was a breath of fresh air to read your pro-Israel article today after so many days of BBC led propaganda I am sick of seeing pictures of shell shocked wide eyed Palestinians, and not a word hardly about the poor sod's in Israel who have had to undergo a relentless bombardment for years...I have no doubt that the Islamic hatred of Israel is so great that should a terror group ever get hold of a WMD, they will, without a second thought, use it against Israel.
*You have highlighted the problem of a) Over-reaction to the Israeli bombing from a British Public who believe in the louder, more emotional journalism of people who do not understand the ACTUAL situation and b) - People who believe that the Israelis are the aggressors and do not accept or understand the restraint and, in fact, the humanitarian behaviour of the Jewish people towards the Islamists in Gaza. All they can see is that more Arabs are being killed than Israelis. They do not see the pin-point bombing of the Jews and the very selective targeting - all they can see is the greater number of civilians being killed in Gaza: people who are situated over the weapons sites deliberately chosen to create the larger number of civilian casualties by the Arabs. I despair. How can people be so ill- or under-informed? Why do people react instead of find out what the situation really is?
*AT LAST !!! Some rational and realistic comment on what's happening in Gaza. Thank you. I've been screaming at the screen for days. Historical and political ignorance is scary enough but the blind ideology and pure naivety of the liberal left is truly frightening. No doubt your comments will earn you a tirade of vitriol from the Gardianistas (do they think they're going to be excused Jihad, or somehow become immune when Iran starts popping nukes), so please accept this small token of support and don't let them get you down.
*I/we just wanted to say thank you for enlightening 6 electricians in leeds who are a long way from being thick or uneducated but, to a man, have not been able to grasp the situation in the middle east or palestine and, i presume, that's the same as 75% of this country. Thanks love for a great column much loved in the north.
*...there is something more to what’s going on in the media than you admit: the world has never forgiven the Jews for Auschwitz. For about 20 years after WWII even the most ardent anti-Jewish ‘liberal’ commentator couldn’t avoid admitting that the Jews didn’t deserve that. And this continued until the events of 1967... In other words, the actions of the Israel are deliberately misunderstood and misrepresented because they retrospectively exculpate the west, in particular the continental Europeans, from what it and they so singularly failed to do when called upon to act against fascism and later communism.*The rest of the world had plenty of time to decide how they were going to control the conflict during the cease fire, but obviously had not given it any thought whatsoever. The time was used by Hamas to refill their armaments, to be used the moment the cease fire ended and that is what they did. Had they succeeded, would the world have defended Israel? not a hope, they would still have blamed Israel. Your comment, That Israel is damned if it does and dead if it doesn't is oh so true, Nobody will lift a finger to help her - just words, words words.
*When I listen, as I always do, to BBC radio 4, my stomach ties itself up in knots when they interview yet another 'Palestinian' distorting the reasons for the current war. It seems that they are now going to target churches and schools, as the Israelis are targeting mosques and homes! What distorted logic! Do churches and schools hide bombs?
*It is good to read unbiased reporting of the situation – I believe the media (especially the BBC) has been responsible for forming much of the present anti-Israel feeling by its totally one sided and extreme bias against Israel.
*You mention that Hamas wants the destruction of Israel. I think you have select hearing disorder. Hamas democratically elected, yet denied legitimacy by the world (another example of how the world continues to deny the Arabs of Palestine their rights), supported the peace initiative by Mr Abbas and was willing to accept the pre-June 1967 borders for a Palestinian State and also in consequence would be forced to accept the existence of Israel. The possibility of peace has continually been pushed to one side by Israel... You reference to the point that Israel is “tiny” and “besieged”, again this is laughable.
*You justify the killing of countless innocent civilians by the Israeli on the basis of the numbers of Germans killed in the second world war. Another crass atempt to dehumanise the oppressed. Can you not see the similarities between Gaza and the Warsaw ghetto? Or like Churchill you regard the Palestinians as Untermenchen. Shame on you and the likes of you. Today there are many Ann Franks in Gaza and Palestine.
*Have you seen the pictures of all the women and children slaughtered by your heroes I suppose it is your right to insult the memory of all WW2 fighters and reduce them to women and baby killers but I reserve my right to tell you that the Israelis will never again have the right to to play the only victims of a genocide they have chosen the Palestinians to keep them company.
*Once again the paper that employs you permits you to have carte blanche to peddle the lies, deceits, half truths and propaganda for the criminal Israeli position. Knowing your faith, one must ask if it is indeed proper for a national newspaper to permit such a totally biased and one sided issue to be peddled and propagated on such a scale and it brings home to one more than ever, that the Israelis and Zionists have the most potent, far reaching and all pervasive PR machine in the world with every member of the faith almost duty bound to peddle the Israeli propaganda.
*Hope you have enjoyed your shabbas rest. Did you pray for more Arab and muslim deaths as you lit your candles? Did you beg God to burn, maim and slice up more Palestinian children as they sleep in their beds or as they attend their prayers? I hope your family sleep peacefully tonight, unlike the people you so avidly despise.
The bad news, as this shows, is that Britain’s bigots are burgeoning – and have the media and intelligentsia in their pocket. The good news is that decency here has not yet died; indeed, among the ordinary people of this country, I get the feeling that that the penny is finally starting to drop.
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Melanie Phillips is a Daily Mail columnist. She also writes for the Jewish Chronicle and is a panellist on BBC Radio Four's Moral Maze. Her most recent book is 'Londonistan', published by Encounter and Gibson Square.
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An American
January 5th, 2009 10:55pmMelanie,
Please continue to keep up your good work.
It's true that most people are decent, fair-minded and hardworking...but unfortunately, misinformed.
The media takes advantage of that fact.
Thank you for continuing to inform people what is truly happening.
Your work is much appreciated.
God Bless.
NickC
January 5th, 2009 10:58pmI spoke with someone today, a fairly anti-Israeli, English Jew/atheist. He was commenting on the humaitarian crisis in Gaza and questioning why Israel didn't let more aid and food in etc...
I argued all the usual points and truths which he seemed pretty neutral to, then in passing happened to mention that Gaza also shares a border with Egypt.
He didn't believe me. He actually had to go away and look at a map of the region before coming back to me in utter amazement. 'Why dont we know this, why is'nt this in the news? Why are Egypt not called into question here? etc...'
Welcome to the real world I said, its a shame it took you so long to get the keys.
Thank you for all your good work, as ever.
postergirl
January 5th, 2009 11:02pmMelanie- truly you are a light in this present darkness. I pray most earnestly for your protection, both physical and spiritual, in this battle for truth.
Jeff Peirce
January 5th, 2009 11:34pmThe Jews do not have an obligation to quietly sit back and be killed by Hamas. The fact that Israel fought back has been the only good thing that has happened in the past few months. I hope they have rapid success before Obama becomes President, and tries to pull the rug out from under them.
HarleyDavidson
January 6th, 2009 12:28amTo paraphrase General George Patton, the entire idea of war is NOT to die for your country but to cause the other poor bastard to die for his. That is how you win wars!
Now, lets tackle that proportionality issue next. I've often counted twenty police cars and sometimes ten helicopters in the air chasing down ONE idiot on the highway trying to escape justice. Is that proportionality? Who was the morons who came up with that stupidity?
Gaza deaths? I offer no apology for a single death. That is the cost of war! Its ugly. Its pure horror. No soldier wants war, ask them if you don't believe me. Which son or daughter sets out to kill children? Unfortunately, that is why war is always the last option and that is why Israel never answered, military, for the rockets being fired at their own citizens for years.
Hamas and the Hamas sympathizers in the west are completely responsible for this war. The EU, the Arab world, and the UN are responsible for funding Hamas's military weapons purchases. It doesn't take a genius to figure out Hamas bought no food, built no roads, built no schools, hospitals, or industry. Where in the hell did they think the money was going?
I look at the Hamas sympathizers in the west as worst that Hamas. Idiots is much too kind a word for that lot. It only enforces my belief it's time to thin out the herd!
paul hill
January 6th, 2009 12:42amWhy are posts that disagree with Melanie now routinely being censored by the Spectator?????
Nick Collins
January 6th, 2009 12:44amIn my experience, the majority of people understand the horrendous dilemma that Hamas and Iran have placed Israel in. Israel refused to strike out for 7 long years knowing that her citizens lived in daily fear from mortars and missiles; listened to the intolerable daily stream of hatred,anti-semitism, holocaust denial of anti-zionists/semites across the world and particularly in left circles, the UN, NGOs and Iran. People do need to look at the map - if Israel wasn't strong the consequences would be catastrophic. All moral peoples' hearts bleed for the victims of this tragic conflict but if Hamas can be defanged and humiliated, the chances for peace may accelerate in ways that no one can determine at this stage.
W. B. Harris
January 6th, 2009 12:46amBravo Melanie, job well done!
Keeping the people informed with the truth enlightens the uninformed and strengthen those who have been willing to stand for truth and justice.
These are troubling times and thank you Melanie for keeping us informed.
People, the readers of this article need to stand up and be counted – protesting in many forms against the BBC and all other Brits who are either misinformed, willing to believe a lie or those willing to sell their souls for what they think is good, but are having the form a godliness, but denying there of.
We also need to support Melanie with our prayers, for evil has no boundaries of decency, and she needs the Hedge of Protection that GOD provides.
Joe Strummer
January 6th, 2009 1:34amPeople in every country around the world aren't stupid and are also asking the same questions we are about the Gaza situation, such as.?
If our own country was being bombarded for years by lethal rocket attacks, would we expect our government to retaliate as the Israelis are doing ? Of course we would, and a lot sooner than the 8 years the Israelis have tolerated this madness.
Also, the other obvious question. If the Palestinians can smuggle in thousands of rockets and arms, why can't they smuggle in food, medical aid and other essentials for their community ? So much for the myth of the Israeli blockade of Gaza the BBC keep referring to.
AlC
January 6th, 2009 1:57amIsn't it true again that the world loves Jews until the Jews fight back? I hope Israel utterly destroys Hamas.
Martin Smith
January 6th, 2009 2:17amAnother wearily predictable pro-Israeli article. Yes, yes, Israel is always the victim and anyone who dares to question this is bigoted and biased. The only dispassionate and informed voice is the one that supports Israel's perspective and its arsenal of highly selective facts. Regardless of the horror of seeing lifeless Palestinian children being dug out of the rubble just remember to stick to the mantra: Israel is the victim and this gives it carte blanche to do what it wants.
Sadly, it's precisely this blinkered failure to call Israel to account that has led it to rely on a one-dimensioned strategy based on military might. In Gaza we may well be witnessing the defining moment when, buoyed by its military superiority and US support, Israel made a serious miscalculation.
It has failed to take note of significant and subtle shifts taking place across the world. Yes, it's likely to win the battle in Gaza but may well have delivered a fatal blow to its chances of winning the war.
Even the US discovered just how little can be achieved once a nation loses its legitimacy on the international stage and turns the world against it.
How much better, therefore, if your justified concern and support for Israel's right to exist had also been used to call it to account for its own excesses and war crimes.
Nashville Gal
January 6th, 2009 3:43amMelanie - it's good to know that the BBC can no longer completely distort the truth and get away with it. Decent people must not remain quiet in the face of terror and evil. If we don't fight it together, we'll lose to it.
Keep up the good work, you reach people all around the world.
rudolph camillo
January 6th, 2009 5:33amjust so melanie. i can only quote herbert spencer, to most of the ignorant reporters at the bbc and guardian..." there is a principle which is against all information,which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in eternal ignorance, and that principle is contempt prior to investigation "...ignorami of the bbc please note.
Pip
January 6th, 2009 7:40amMelanie, you have been my heroine for quite some time, and I can't ever see that changing.
During my rounds of gleaning daily info, you are always one of the first I read.
You are the wing beneath our wings.
Archie
January 6th, 2009 7:50amIndeed, Miss Phillips. One question I have: where has all the 'Foreign Aid" money gone, apart from Swiss bank accounts? I see very little in the way of infrastructure/hospitals and schools. Why, with 2,000 casualties, are the Palestinians running out of medical supplies?
Interesting, too, that the rest of the Muslim world do not appear to be galloping to the rescue. Egypt, in fact, seems to be calling it like it is.
Eddie
January 6th, 2009 8:02amWhy don’t the Jewish community leaders organise a vigil at Broadcasting House headquarters against the obscene bias of what amounts to pro Hamas propaganda by the BBC?
Mike
January 6th, 2009 8:40am'And the 2000 Intifada which killed thousands of Israelis was the Palestinians’ response to being offered more than 90 per cent of the West Bank and Gaza for a state of their own'.
I think what Melanie intended to say in her 'Daily Mail' column was 'the Palestinians can have a state on 42 per cent of the 80 per cent of the 22 per cent of 100 per cent of their original homeland.'
Roland
January 6th, 2009 8:52amhmm - Eddie's suggestions might present problems for our Melanie as she passes the community leades on her way in to one of her regular apppearances on BBC TV and Radio
stanley Jerusalem
January 6th, 2009 9:37amThe problem with Anglo-Jewish leaders is their continual desire not to make waves is stronger than their moral outrage at perceived injustice and evil.It was ever thus and even a World War didn't alter it.
Jews of Great Britain don't hold your breath!
Gregory
January 6th, 2009 9:43amGood to hear that there is support from ordinary people for Israel and its war against Hamas. There is hope that the UK is not dhimmified yet despite the best efforts of its ruling elites.
Geoff M
January 6th, 2009 10:10amYou could do two things for us Melanie.
1. Provide us with, or direct us too, a concise summary of the information that will help argue Israel's case. E.g. number of rocketes over past years, during the ceasefire etc. Also same for suicide bombings and other acts of terror. Availablity of aid, electricity, medical supplies and care. Again info on the role of Egypt in closing their border and why.
This could easily be transmitted virally across the net.
2. What we can do to support Israel both to give voice to our support and tilt the media balance back into a semblance of fairness.
The silent majority needs a voice.
Kiwi
January 6th, 2009 10:54amArchie wrote: "Egypt, in fact, seems to be calling it like it is."
It couldn't possibly be because Egypt has its own problems with the Muslim Brotherhood (AKA Hamas in Gaza), could it?
Adam B.
January 6th, 2009 11:04amMike, where on earth do you get your figures? Three fifths of Palestine (which was not an independent entity) was handed to the Arabs in 1922 by the British, to become Transjordan (later Jordan, which has a majority Palestinian population and is, in effect, a Palestinian state). Then the Arabs were offered about half of the remaining two fifths in 1948 as well, which they rejected, and instead launched a war of genocide against the Jews. Pity for you, they lost.
steve
January 6th, 2009 11:10amHarleyDavidson: Are you saying that until now Israel has never responded militarily to rocket attacks by Hamas?
Nice Jewish Girl
January 6th, 2009 11:44amMelanie,
Please keep up the good work. Your columns and diary entries are essential reading!
stanley Jerusalem
January 6th, 2009 12:00pmThe World's press are screaming blue murder at Israel'e refusal to allow them to enter Gaza. The World's International Organisations are screaming blue murder at Israel's reluctance to flood Gaza with 'vital supplies' of medicines and foodstuffs.
Hang on a minute,doesn't Gaza have a border with Egypt; a Muslim country with at least a vestige of support for the Gazans? Where is the World's criticism of the Egyptians, who one assumes are not at war with them? What must we learn of Hamas from this?
Why don't we?
Jane
January 6th, 2009 12:12pmWhen it comes to the march of Islamism there is now a complete disconnect between most mainstream media commentators and the public - that's why you got the reaction you did, Melanie.
The dogs in the street know we're now fed a daily diet of half truths and distortions all designed to apologise and assist the Islamists and yet so many journalists think the public haven't seen straight through them.
Thank you, Melanie.
Dr M Grave
January 6th, 2009 12:39pmBless you Mel, for your intelligence, courage and commitment to the truth. People are listening, at last, and understanding. The trust abused by the lying, cheating, stealing BBC is at last vanishing.
Byron in Wahroonga
January 6th, 2009 12:53pm'Why dont we know this, why is'nt this in the news? Why are Egypt not called into question here?
Well done Nick C! If your colleague wants to learn the contempt the BBC have for their audience, he might care to check this out:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20090101GazaRocketsMortarsChart.jpg
A chart showing the escalation in attacks since Hamas took the helm.
Byron in Wahroonga
January 6th, 2009 12:58pm***another wearily predictable pro-Israeli article***
No. But definitely another of your wearily predictable pro-Jihadi forum posts, Martin. Keep them coming? It's helpful to know how Hamas thinks.
davidka
January 6th, 2009 12:58pmDo you think BBC reporters on the street in Gaza would report the movements of Israeli troups to the hammas terrorists thereby causimg loss of young israeli soldiers lives, if they had the chance?
do you think they would willingly participate in falsehoods and pallywood type mise en scenes?
Israel has enough lies and mendacious reporting to deal with already.
perhaps that answers the question of allowing reporters on the gound.
Deb - London
January 6th, 2009 1:09pmTo those who would wish see Israel sit complacently not reacting to attacks from Hammas into Israel- what do they think Hammas has been doing building an arsenal of rockets, SAM missiles and possibly WMD. Their stated aims are to destroy Israel what would those people suggest Israel do to defend itself???
Arab countries other than Syria and Iran are happy to let Israel do the job of disarming Hammas as they fully understand the threat to the whole region.
No one wants war - Israel does not want to repeatedly send it's young people to fight - what is their choice??
Melanie keep telling everyone how it is!
stanley Jerusalem
January 6th, 2009 1:10pmWhat immutable law of the Universe says that the media should have access to a battle zone? This is tantamount to a new religion where a bloke with a long beard says " I went up that mountain and god gave me these commandments for you lot to obey. Now jump to it".
And they think that if they say it loud enough for long enough we'll believe them.
Let them go to hell. What do they imagine they will contribute to peace? Bugger-all thus far.Just improving their publishers' turnover.
stanley Jerusalem
January 6th, 2009 1:12pmPS Israeli authorities today arrested an Iranian journalist who reported detailed Tzahal troop movements before the Government announced them officially. It was called spying when I was a kid.
hadrian
January 6th, 2009 1:25pmWhilst I have no problem with people disagreeing with us ( we do live in a democratic society-still!) I must say the final messages you recieved, Mel, are nothing short of fiendishly abusive and quite, quite revolting. It is indeed blame the victim time, when Jews can have such virulent hatred spewed forth at them for daring to suggest there is a right to self defence and yet those who'll stoop to blowing up their own gullible youngsters to advance their cause are regarded as perfectly rational and acceptable. Where are the howls of horror at the almost unbelieveable wickedness that Hamas boasts about in the name of Islam?
EyeSee
January 6th, 2009 1:28pmHamas. An organisation that is happy to kill other Muslim Arabs, because they do not follow the right strain of Islam, with weapons supplied by Persians. Just the sort of people the Left love.
Adam Ali (Jewsih forname, Muslim surname, go figure)
January 6th, 2009 1:41pmIn the 7 (seven) years since the launching of the Palestinian primitive Qassam rockets started, and until this massacre started 3 days ago, they killed a total of 13 innocent Israelis and one foreigner. In that period Israel killed 2990 Palestinians (634 of them children!) in the Gaza strip, (total of 4781 in Gaza and the West bank), very large number of the killed were innocent civilians, including many women and children.
phil
January 6th, 2009 1:51pmmike why don't you respond to my post on "groundhog"? I will update you -I DID DINE WITH MY lEBANESE FRIENDS LAST NIGHT-and was expecting great support for the Palestinians -but not only did they say how sick they are with hamas ,they told me how the Lebanese (apart from those in the south-pro hesbollah) despise the said hesbollah but are terrified of the control through fear of their citizens -they want them to go to hell and leave the beautiful Lebanon that they had lived in -they are Muslims !!!!-not only that but they have lived side by side with Jews and like them ,as they did all faiths ,the problems all started when Arafat and his pals arrived and ruined a beautiful and peaceful country .Maybe you will remind mr fisk of that .
phil
January 6th, 2009 2:03pmAdam Ali (Jewsih forname, Muslim surname, go figure).
January 6th, 2009 1:41pm
I have no idea as to the accuracy of your figures but do you think Jewish people do not care at the losses you have sustained ?-I will tell you WE DO ,WE DO, WE DO !! but it is not for the lack of trying by the terrorist factions amongst you that such a difference has occurred-WE WANT PEACE and that would be relatively easy if you stopped trying to kill us -how about spreading that message ?and then see the love and kindness that Jews are famous for .
Adam Ali
January 6th, 2009 2:08pmWinston...
Hamas were DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED.
Its what all the Western Govts wanted.
You cannot have your cake...
Tory Abroad
January 6th, 2009 2:38pmWell, I'm glad you've seen some support, Melanie. Where I am, in the European Parliament, the vast majority of correspondence coming in AND messages from members are anti-Israli and full of vitriol. I despair, sometimes! How can intelligent people be so blinded to the facts?
tommy
January 6th, 2009 2:57pm396 truckloads of humanitarian aid that have been delivered through Israeli crossings into Gaza since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead, including basic food commodities, medication, medical supplies, blood units and donations by various governments and blood units. [3]
80 truckloads of humanitarian aid expected to arrive in Gaza on Jan. 5 [4]
20 Palestinians evacuated to Israel for medical treatment (including two children) [5]
800,000+ leaflets disseminated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to Gaza civilians instructing them to stay away from terrorist and weapons storage sites [6]
70+ times the IDF warned populated areas before conducting airstrikes [7]
10,000 tons of aid transported into Gaza at the request of international organizations, the Palestinian Authority and various governments since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead. The World Food Program informed Israel last week that that it would cease shipment of food to Gaza because warehouses are at full capacity, with enough food to last two weeks. [8]
0 wounded Palestinians allowed by Hamas to cross from Gaza into Egypt for treatment. [9]
................................................................................................................................................................................
In fact Egypt was shooting at those who wanted to cross out of Gaza (fellow muslims who had done them no harm-- that act speaks for itself)
Why must Israel be responsible for these things-- Egypt could open a corridor to supply gaza with everything it needs.
Why doesn't it
It lets weapons through
ray douglas
January 6th, 2009 3:12pmMelanie,The BBC just can't help it!They just can't bring themselves to drop the pro-palestinian blinkers they have worn so long!On BBC five live this morning, some one texted in to say that the BBc must have worked hard to find a pro-palestinian jew.Would they work as hard to find a Pro-jewish palestinian? Peter Snow on Channel four is just as bad at peddling his vile Anti-israel bias!
Adam B.
January 6th, 2009 3:31pmAdam Ali, I guess then that the people of Gaza have no-one to blame but themselves for voting for a neo-Nazi terror organization such as Hamas. By the way, was it democratic when hamas members threw Fatah supporters off the rooftops?
Emily
January 6th, 2009 3:42pmWinston Smith: 'The Palestinian people deserve what happens to them ....'
Perhaps one of the more revolting comments today, though you do have a lot of competition.
Pete Hoskin
January 6th, 2009 4:17pmWinston Smith: a couple of your comments have been taken down because of their content.
Johann: your comment hasn't been approved, for obvious reasons. Apologies.
wrighty
January 6th, 2009 4:20pmWhy do all the BBC-haters here even watch it ? Fox will give you the one-sided views you all seek.
Mike
January 6th, 2009 5:24pmphil; I recall telling you sometime last year that I had always believed the Palestinians who fled Jordan for Lebanon became the catalyst for the Civil War which broke out in 1974. I was there.....remember? What this has to do with Robert Fisk I can't imagine. Anyway, I don't wish to pursue any of this with you.......we've been down this route before. I'm glad you enjoyed the hospitality of your Lebanese friends.........I envy you.
phil
January 6th, 2009 6:07pmmike thank you I did enjoy my time with my Muslim friends -if you want to read fisk try todays independent and you will see a column of unadulterated lies and hate . Sadly whenever you cannot answer me you disappear ,so whats new .
phil
January 6th, 2009 6:08pmAdam Ali we await your reply to my post
Adam B.
January 6th, 2009 6:10pmwrighty, how dare we waych it. we only have to pay for BBC lies.
Englishman, South Yorkshire
January 6th, 2009 6:10pmKeep up the expose of Hamas and the BBC's manufactured television.
You might like to point out to everyone that Hamas also view Spain (Al Andalus) as being "occupied territory". It would be interested to see how many "useful idiots" could explain that one........
Commondog
January 6th, 2009 6:42pmI just want to register the fact that at this most desperate time, I am glad that there is this place to go to in order to balance the anti-Israeli barrage as put across by the BBC and other 'mainstream' media sources.
Ann Farmer
January 6th, 2009 6:46pmMelanie, it's heartening to read the positive responses to your Monday column. Actually I was surprised that the BBC reports mentioned Hamas rocket attacks at all. It would be nice to think this was a small step in the right direction - but sadly, probably not.
Coen de Jong
January 6th, 2009 7:36pmIndeed, there seems to be a reversal of opinions. Compared to the ridiculous onslaught of anti-Israel propaganda in 2006 during the Southern Lebanon invasion more people, and certain governments too, seem to understand that condemnations of Israel simply mean condoning Islamic terrorism which is akin to condoning extreme-right fascist racist violence. Maybe this has something to do with the realization that the increasing agression of Muslim extremists in practically all western countries is not going to go away by governmental collaboration on the islamist agenda. Maybe some spineless European governemnt finally remember they are supposed to serve their citizens, and not islamic racist extremist.
Lou Dacht
January 6th, 2009 8:48pm"Why do all the BBC-haters here even watch it ?"
The clue is in the 'British' part of its title - as Britons who are compelled to fund it, we keep on looking in, in the hope that the 1960s might show signs of waning.
Mike
January 6th, 2009 8:51pmphil: Kindly allow me to spend my free time as I wish. There's far more going on in my life than writing threads on Melanie's blogs. If you have a NEW question then please put it to me, and I'll do my best. Meanwhile, I'm delighted you read the 'Independent', but yet again you attempt to smear Robert Fisk by describing his column as 'unadulterated lies and hate'. These are words I would never use......not even when I disagree with Mel, or anyone else for that matter.
James Christie
January 6th, 2009 9:30pmI hope the BBC is privitised and sold off into lots and lots of little parcels. It might help the country pay of some of our national debt (thanks to gordo).
phil
January 7th, 2009 9:55amMike just spend a small amount of your free time and read the article I referred too-IT IS A DISGRACE .You have spent an inordinate time criticising Israel in the past and present ,so I DO NOT BUY YOUR EXCUSE .
Mike
January 7th, 2009 11:54amphil: Ah....the NEW question! Answer: Why you consider the article you refer to as a 'disgrace' escapes me. I don't agree with you, and I don't expect you to agree with me. If we both agreed with each other there would be no point in spending time writing on this blog. What else do you need to know?
However,what I would like to ask you is why you don't give any thought to what it must be like, what emotions it generates, what horrible acts start to appear justifiable, when you have a hostile foreign army control your borders and airspace and internal affairs for 4 decades, one which builds walls around you, imposes the most intensely humiliating conditions on your daily life, blockades your land so you are barred from leaving, and prevents you from accessing basic nutrition and medical needs for your children? It seems to me that so extreme is your emotional identification with one side (Israel), that you never try to imagine what it is like to live in those circumstances. So when people insist that I should put myself in the position of a resident in Sderot....as though that will, by itself, prove the justifiability of the Israeli attack, the idea literally never occurs to them that they should imagine what it is like to live under foreign occupation for 40 years, and to see Israel continue to occupy and expand its settlements on Palestinian land.
phil
January 7th, 2009 7:46pmMike ,you just never see what stares you in the face -It was the ARABS WHO ATTACKED ISRAEL !! THE FACTS ARE THEY CONTINUED TO DO SO .Sadly the rest of the Arab world never provided Palestinians any more living space -why?? They did not have to live in camps did they?I think most people are fed up with your intransigence which shows ever more with your support for the insufferable fisk ,a man who never fails to show his hatred for Israel ,and a man who has managed to whip up the worst anti -semitism that I have ever witnessed in the comments section of his column -If you were the man you purport to be you would be ashamed to show any allegiance to him .Alan Sugar has been warned about his own security as have many other Jews because of the inflammatory remarks made in certain parts of the media -have you heard of any Jews threatening anyone ?
Do you have anything good to say about hamas/hesbollah and if not why should Israel not defend its citizens from these extremists .I realise I waste my time with you but others who read what we both have to say will no doubt see the nonsense that you try to spread .
Adam B.
January 8th, 2009 12:41amI see Mike has started his sanctimonious condescending pontifications again.
Mike
January 8th, 2009 9:31amPhil: I'm not going to get into any argument with you about the history of Zionism.....about 1948, 1967, 1973, 2006 etc etc since it would fill pages and pages. However,60 years later, it's still about the Occupation of Palestine and the Palestinians resistance to it. I have my views on this....you have yours. If this is 'intransigence' on my part....so it is on yours.
However, I do recognise, and understand, that you were trained from the cradle to identify with the Jews of Israel as 'my group'.....to identify with them emotionally, culturally and religiously so perhaps it is this which gets in the way of your objectivity...well-intentioned that you certainly are. I don't have this 'problem' so hopefully my objectivity remains intact.
Those who defend Israeli actions in every case, or who find justification in attacks on civilians, or who find a simplistic moral clarity in a whole range of complex issues, where both sides share infinite blame, are guilty of either a refusal, or an inability, to at least try to minimise their tribalistic blindness.
Incidentally, I see that your colleague and ally Adam B has tried to 'put his oar in'...as they say. Since I've tangled with him in the past, I've no wish to be at the start of a New Year with a sour taste in my mouth. Unlike you....he's not well-intentioned....rather the opposite in fact as countless posts of his testify.
Adam B.
January 8th, 2009 11:11amYou're right Mike, I'm not wel intentioned to people who spout obnoxious poison about the Jewish state, come what may. You don't believe in Israel existing at all anyway, in any circumstances, so where are your good intentions?
phil
January 8th, 2009 3:55pmMike you are so wrong again Adam is not Jewish yet supports what he sees as just causes and I commend him for it -Israel has a special place for righteous gentiles on the Mount of Olives
How are you objective anyway ? I blame fisk for infecting your mind with his hatred of all things Israeli and his rubbish that you continually quote , even though I do not think hate is in your heart .As you say I am well intentioned and with that comes objectivity and a care for both sides as you well know .
Adam B.
January 9th, 2009 1:04amPhil, you have much more patience than me!
Mike
January 9th, 2009 9:22amphil: You are so right......there is a substantial difference between, on the one hand, basically well-intentioned people who are guilty of excessive emotional and cultural identification with one side of the dispute and, on the other, those who adopt a psychopathic rage over widespread civilian deaths as something to view as a strategic asset.....the more dead the better. This is an indication of every defining attribute of the Terrorist.
Those who enthusiastically support, are indifferent to, not just civilian deaths in Gaza, but in every actual and proposed attack on Arab/Muslim countries....from Iraq, to Lebanon,to Iran and Syria and even an escalation in Afghanistan, are able to do so, because they don't really see Muslims they want to kill as being fully human. For obvious reasons this sociopathic indifference, feeling power from a safe distance, one finds in society's weakest, most frightened, most paranoid and most insecure individuals. One finds this on both sides....Israeli, Palestinian and sadly on these pages.
I hope Adam B finds peace at last on the Mount of Olives!
phil
January 9th, 2009 12:00pmAdam B I havnt but you taught me not to ignore people who write crap :)
phil
January 9th, 2009 4:02pmMike you are so wrong again Adam is not Jewish yet supports what he sees as just causes and I commend him for it -Israel has a special place for righteous gentiles on the Mount of Olives
How are you objective anyway ? I blame fisk for infecting your mind with his hatred of all things Israeli and his rubbish that you continually quote , even though I do not think hate is in your heart .As you say I am well intentioned and with that comes objectivity and a care for both sides as you well know .