In the face of evil, a sudden silence descends

steve

So all the children who have been killed by Israel were put on rooftops by Hamas? I accept that Israel is not deliberately trying to kill Palestinian children. However, launching an assault on a small territory that is densely populated is invariably going to lead to civilian casualties and not because they were put on rooftops.

Corin

Steve, you miss the point. Now every Jewish child is a 'legitimate target' for terrorists. But people like you will trot out the excuses when a Jewish school in the West is targetted. You need to repeat every day' Hamas is guilty. Hamas is guilty'. Eventually, it might get through.

Philip Horowitz

Although it is something of a side issue, I would like to write something about this issue of the densely populated nature of Gaza. I have seen people point out that it is not the most densely populated place in the world - Singapore or somewhere else is. But what I have not seen mentioned is that, in all these comparisons, it is not clear that like is being compared with like.

From the press, one might get the impression that Gaza is extremely crowded, the whole place something like Oxford Circus at rush hour. This is misleading.

I am not sure the figures I shall give are entirely correct but they do give a clearer idea.

Gaza is about 360 square kilometres in area and has about 1,400,000 inhabitants, giving a population density of about 4000/square kilometre.

But London has an area of about 1600 square kilometres and a population of 7,500,000 giving it a population density of nearly 5000/square kilometre ie more than Gaza which is actually not very surprising as one would expect a world city to have a pretty dense population. The only thing that did strike me is that Gaza is only about a quarter the size of Greater London. It is worth pointing out though that Israel (1967 borders)is only about 12 times the size of Greater London.

Since it is now common place to compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto - an odious comparison I entirely reject - it is worth noting that the ghetto was about 9 square kilometres in area and had a population of 450,000 at its greatest. This gave a density of 50,000/square kilometre ie more than 10 times that of London.

Perhaps, Melanie, you will write about these interesting figures which seem to have escaped many commentators.

Lynda - New Zealand

One tiny bright note. In light of all the media bias et al my husband and I were a bit concerned at 'who' would turn out to an anti-Israel protest in the Capital of NZ today. My husband just rang to say - not a lot to it - a small group - rastas, greenies and a few hijabs, probably a mutant communist on the loud speaker. Banners were 'acceptable protest' in tone (it is a free country). On the side of the road a group of Israel supporters my husband said were Jewish, to whom he offered his support.

At least democracy at work without overheated polemic rhetoric.

It is amazing that Hamas ideology is not critiqued by the media. I think the free world is in a sort of peacenik pacifist bind and thinks peace can be a goal without the hard decisions being made. Hamas is an intractable enemy that only knows the rule of force, you can't negotiate with words without the backup of force. The West has lost its ability to discern and think beyond moral relativism and 'peace' at any price deals. It has no moral fibre.

Israel must win a decisive victory - Hamas is driven by an apocalyptic goal cheered on by Iran to 'fight the Jews till judgement day'. That is not going to go away now is it?

Jane

Open your eyes and really look at the situation steve.
Hamas deliberately cached their weapons etc. next to civilians and their children.
Is this the action of a civilised people?
I think not.

Dixon

steve
January 5th, 2009 11:17pm
So all the children who have been killed by Israel were put on rooftops by Hamas? I accept that Israel is not deliberately trying to kill Palestinian children. However, launching an assault on a small territory that is densely populated is invariably going to lead to civilian casualties and not because they were put on rooftops."

...and I guuess launching 10,000 missiles into school playgrounds, shopping malls, housing estates and hospitals was only incidentally going to kill Israeli children...including Arabs.

EthanII

Gee, Steve--I think you left out a part here, didn't you? Namely: 6,000 rockets shot from Gaza into civilian areas in Israel before the Israelis "launched an assault."
How come you left that part out?

Here is what the political philosopher Michael Walzer wrote about what we are witnessing:

When Palestinian militants launch rocket attacks intentionally from within civilian Palestinian areas, using civilian as human shields as they intentionally target Israeli civilians, they are themselves responsible--and no one else is--for the civilian deaths caused by inevitable Israeli counterfire.

Period.

Sheron

No steve they may not have been put on roof tops however, the Hamas as did Hizballah, cynically put their military arsenal in the middle of the civillian population. This means that invevitably civillians, including children will be harmed when an attack on their military infrastructure occurs. This is just another weapon that the Hamas use in their war againts Israel.

explummer

Steve - since Hamas stores its weaponry in residential buildings, mosques, etc., then yes they intentionally put their children directly at risk.

An American

In the western world we believe that only worthless cowards could use live children as human shields and dead children for their own political publicity.

Hamas and their Islamic terrorist brethren have alway been cowards. They send out young men and women to die as so-called martyrs while they hide in cellars. They acquire many wives to show their manhood but treat them less than human...they teach their children hatred and death. Their word means nothing, they have no understanding of the idea of honor.

What a poor excuse for manhood these Hamas thugs are.

dominic lennon

Dark forces are a work in Europe as could be seen from the appalling fascistic demonstrations held in London recently. The UK in particular is paying a very heavy price for allowing mass Muslim immigration on such an insane scale. I happened to be passing t Charing Cross on Saturday and have neer witnessed such sheer hatred for jews on display. When I protested Isreal's right to be free from tyrrany to one group of youths my reward was to be kicked and spat at. The thir great Islamic jihad is truly upon us and Israel won't be the only country in the front line before long. Keep telling it like it is, Melanie.

Terry

Note - 'Jewish children'

No pretence any more of being 'anti-zionist' rather than racist antisemitic genocide killers. As if they and their friends around the world ever were merely 'anti Zionist'. A nazi is a nazi is a nazi.

Steve - I can understand where you are coming from. But it isn't good enough just to tell us that Israel will cause civlian casualties by going into Gaza. Unless you can tell me how Israel is otherwise to stop rockets being aimed exclusively at its civilians, you aren't in a position to tell Israel what to do. I heard from a relative of my wife in Ashkelon today - their children were caught in their car when the 15 second warning sounded, no time to get to a shelter. They were OK, but if I had to live like that over 6,000 times, I'd sure as hell want my government to do something to stop it. This has been happening for about 5 years. When do you suggest Israeli patience should be exhausted? I think it should have been 5,999 rockets ago, but I'm not as caring as the Israeli government for genocide murderers.

dmgold

Steve you obviously havent read the statement by the Hamas Cheerleader. He has by default extended the killing of Children (Israeli) to JEWISH CHILDREN anywhere in the world. Sounds like A PC Left wings idea of GOOD Justice. STEVE IS THIS THE WORLD YOU AND ANNIE LENNOX/DAVID ENO angling for????

Vision Aforethought

Questions: a) Why on the BBC News website is there a 'BBC News in Arabic' link yet no 'BBC News in Hebrew' link? b) How is it that there are photographers around when each Palestinian happens to be crying or looking angry? Who stages this? I don't recall a single such misuse of imagery from the West during WW2, or during even more recent (none Middle Eastern) wars. These people really are the lowest of the low and we're going to concede our country to them? If not already...

Related, a photographer with a Jewish sounding name was arrested in London and his DNA sampled recently. Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/photographers-criminalised-as-police-abuse-antiterror-laws-1228149.html
(Yes, this is just an example, but I was also stopped for photographing some businesses in Chiswick once - and had to give all my details! No DNA, and if they had tried, a few harsh words would have ensued.)

It won't be long before those who control the CCTV and DNA databases can simply perform a search to find their targets. And with Politically Correctness allowing dubious people to climb further up the ladder, it won't be long now.

Things are starting to get out of hand and perhaps it will soon be time to stop blogging and fighting back. Funny, I really really didn't think it would happen again. But then, I guess that is the problem, it's only when 'it' starts to happen that you convince yourself the world was modern and progressive in 1939, yet bad things happened then so why not today, and it's easier too, we have technology to spread evil at a faster pace...

GC

[If you see a lot of strange br/s that's a failed experiment to see if I can get paragraph breaks in my post]

I don't really understand the 'sudden silence' bit. It's been widely reported and your link after all is to The Times On-line.

And in the interest of impartiality I think it's fair to point out that it might have been wiser for Ehmud Olmert not to have upped the antes somewhat in his appeal on Al-Aribya television to the people of Gaza quoted here at this Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs link http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Speeches+by+Israeli+leaders/2008/PM_Olmert_interview_Al-Arabiya_25-Dec-2008.htm (my asterisked emphasis)

"Hamas is the enemy of the residents - not only in Israel but in Gaza. We want to live as good neighbors with Gaza. We do not want to harm you. We will not allow a humanitarian crisis and that you should suffer from a lack of food or medicines. We do not want to fight the Palestinian people but we will not allow Hamas to strike our children. We have very great and destructive strength - which we do not wish to use. *I think of the tens of thousands of children and innocents who will be in danger as a result of Hamas's actions*. Do not let the murderers of Hamas, which is acting against the values of Islam, put you in danger."

or at least thought to add one of your soothing (sanitising?)'unfortunately's if only for decency's sake.

However you're quite right of course in the main thrust of your remarks. There's an infamous cartoon doing the rounds presently on the internet depicting an Israeli soldier firing from in *front* of a pram at a terrorist firing from *behind* a pram which makes the same point graphically and admirably.

Your ironic remark that the terrorists are prepared to involuntarily make martyrs of their own people (thus inevitably including their own children) we also know to be true from our experience of the London tube bombing.

I trust it's merely the rhetoric of evil.

For I doubt Hamas is turning an indifferently blind eye to the gaping open propaganda gift-horse maw landed them by these attacks.

GRUMPY the GOLANI

I urge your readers to visit the Little Green Footballs site (these are the guys who were instrumental in exposing the whole 'faux photo scam' during the war in Lebanon.

'We should not forget that every television image and every news photograph coming out of Gaza right now is filtered through Hamas. The photographers filing pictures for Reuters, Associated Press, and Agence France Presse are all Palestinians, and all propagandists for Hamas—or they wouldn’t be allowed to take pictures in Gaza.(end of quote)

'Israellycool'also carries an interesting item in which the same injured child is being paraded around by TWO different men.

Hamas - master puppeteers for the ill informed,deranged and just plain pigshit stupid.

Louise

Mahmoud Zahar's rant was briefly played - or rather shown, for we heard no voice - on both BBC and Sky yesterday evening. Sky's interpreter mentioned the chilling bit about killing "their people all over the world"; Jeremy Bowen on BBC mentioned only that Zahar was proclaiming that Hamas would be victorious. No doubt he didn't want Hamas to seem like a barbarian terrorist group. The BBC bulletins last evening, including a poison report from Bowen, consisted of one anti-Israel item after another. I believe they were getting revenge for Israel's ban on journalists going into Gaza, a ban the BBC tells us of frequently, although needless to say not the reason for the ban.

E Al Sante

In Europe and North America do the families of the victims 9/11, July /7 in London, Madrid bombing, Bombay, Russia terror attack by Chechnya in a children school few years ago, do those victims families try to get revenge and kill or assault by any muslims they see in the streets of America, Europe and other world? the answer is "No"

Hamas is crazy and they have to keep the anger in the middle east and not carry anywhere else,

also people have to be careful specially the European cities where you see Islamic extremist in your face every few minutes, London their are plenty of them!

Dave

This is a terrible thing for Hamas to say. Sky News reported today that 100 Palestinian children had been killed so far. This is also terrible.
We must appeal to the moderates on both sides.
But Mel, what is worse? Threats? Or actually being responsible for the death of children?

Joshua

"But Mel, what is worse? Threats? Or actually being responsible for the death of children?"

British forces have recently been responsible both directly an indirectly for the deaths of countless children in Iraq, Aghanistan and Serbia. How would you feel if Islamists, as a result, declared that all British children, wherever they may be, were now a legitimate target?

Byron in Wahroonga

***on the side of the road a group of Israel supporters my husband said were Jewish, to whom he offered his support***

Lynda, please pass on my admiration for - and gratitude towards - your husband. That is exactly what all freedom loving folk should be doing.

egh

Joshua -
You mean they haven't?

Grrenzone

Just heard the Boy Assad quoting an Amnesty International report criticising Israel. A Syrian? Using AI to criticise Israel? You couldn't make it up!

Pat Viliors

Vision Aforethought, if you needed any further evidence of the BBC's leanings, simply go to http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/tools/calculator/ There you'll find, at licence-payers' expense, a handy little Prayer Calculator so that Muslims all over the world can know exactly WHEN to pray for a glorious Hamas victory.

Victoria Harnandez

I am from Cuba I live in Britain, I been beat up by Muslim religious guys before, one afternoon coming back from work they was saying to me you are Muslim and should be wearing a veil, something like that, I say no, I am not Muslims, one of the guy hit me, call me a "H" word, i say no he say you deserve to be beat up because you are lying, since then I am afraid to go out, no one help me it was the underground people reading their papers didn't care about me, the police did not do anything, and the lady who is the owner of the apartment where I rent e fat English woman she was the side of those gangs, because she says it is political incorrect to report to the police, what could I do if something like this happens to me again? I don't know I don't like when people bring their believers to me.

David L

Please! Please don't follow any link that leads to bbc.com. Every visit to their website makes them stronger. And do not watch or listen too. Same goes for CNN, Reuters, AP and other shameless "mainstream" media hypocrites.

By the way, I'm convinced that the silent majority of Europeans are not buying their lies.

Pro Israel

Demonstration wednesday 7pm outside Israeli Embassy in Kensington London - PRO ISRAEL.

Philip Honour

Is it actually possible to debate this issue without it turning into a playground brawl?

Not all anti-war protesters are Hamas supporters.

Pamela Levene

Thank you for your balanced article!

How proud I am of Israel. Thousands of missiles aimed at our civilians for years; yet very few casualties (though the trauma to our children is enormous). Our priority is protection! Shelters to run to, children at home not out in the streets. A silent channel operates on the radio that ONLY broadcasts the warning siren so that people can try to lead normal lives while waiting for the next bomb to fall.

Now the northern citizens have opened their homes to strangers to give them respite from the war. No refugees here. Only welcome guests.

Sad that this protection is misreported to suggest disproportionate force, while the truth is that Palestinian children die because of the depravity of the Palestinian leadership, who crave martyrs and feed on hatred and destruction.

Pamela Levene

Let me help you, Philip Horowitz - and other puzzled readers - to understand the true proportions of this conflict.

Imagine a football pitch - that represents the Muslim lands (22 countries)

Drop a matchbox on the pitch. That represents Israel.

Now you've got it!

p.s. and they want us to take off the match-box cover "for the sake of peace"

Dixon

Philip Honour
January 6th, 2009 12:45pm
Is it actually possible to debate this issue without it turning into a playground brawl?
Not all anti-war protesters are Hamas supporters."

Not all WW2 pacifists were NAZI supporters, they just materially helped the NAZIs by their "moral" posturing.

You dont have to support the enemy to be a traitor.

robert

Pamela: exactly. Why has the craven BBC not asked the simple question re-all the millions of cash aid funnelled to Hamas by the likes of the EU (that means you and me). Where has the money been spent? Hospitals? Air-riad shelters? Medical supplies? Or, by any chance, on weapons, military training and genocidal propaganda? Why are the BBC journalists not queing up at the EGYPTIAN border, demanding that the EGYPTIAN authorities let them into Gaza? And why is it that Hamas can smuggle endless supplies of arms through the tunnels, but somehow forgot to send the medical supplies thorugh?

Saul Starozinsky

Dear Melanie!
I want to remind You that Grad rocket hit a school in Ashdod 4 days ago and "the only reason there wasn’t a massacre of Jewish pupils was--Mayor of the city ordered to close all schools...
By the way...
Look whats going on in Holland.
De Telegraaf reports that Socialist Party MP Harry van Bommel on Saturday, during the large demonstration in Amsterdam was shouting, "Intifada, Intifada, free Palestine" and that the crowd surrounding him was singing, "Hamas, Hamas, all the Jews to the gas".

hadrian

Anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear knows only too well that Hamas is a Jihad operation so we 'infidels' are ALL legitimate targets. For goodness sake, if they don't flinch from stopping so low as to use their own young and other vulnerable as suicidal weapons of mass destruction, do we REALLY expet a shred of humanity from them?
The West bleats on about the humanitarian catastrophe but conveniently overlooks the fact it protested not a cheep when Israel was being tormented by their rockets of death, and only when inevitably Israel has had enough to hit back do these 'morally superior' dolts come out of their still largely insulated holes in the West to dish out their lectures to Israel. The sight of Blair and the French President jumping belatedly in on the act was truly repugnant.
On this one my sympathies lie totally with Israel.

Pamela Levene

Hi Dixon!

There have been public protests held in Israel speaking out against what is happening in Gaza!

Can you imagine any other country in the world allowing such demonstrations?

Enemy attacks on a daily basis; thousands of missiles fired at innocent civilians.

Finally we take action to protect them and some people actually protest! And are allowed to do so. Publicly. Loudly. With no restraint.

And you know what? I think it is fantastic! They have the right to express their opinion and they are given that right.

WELL DONE ISRAEL.

If only the Palestinians had such freedom of speech. Then I am sure they would speak up against their corrupt leaders and call for peace.

Sadly it will never happen. This week alone 30 Palestinian "collaborators" have been lynched by Hamas.

David L

Philip Honour
read this before debating http://www.thebulletin.us/articles/2009/01/05/herb_denenberg/doc4961c29b5ed1a649711765.txt

Dixon

Lets flag up another media deception which journos no doubt believe as they repeat it. That is the assertion tirelessly repeated by those who havent a cog knows of the facts that Israel can only go to war thanks to US technology and weapons. Lets consider a few of the facts:

Israel does possess American aircraft, but it also builds its own. The Kfir is a supersonic fighter bomber in the same class as the F16. Israeli built UAVs are now being purchased by Russia. The technology of the US anti-ballistic missile system is being developed by Israeli engineers in Israel on Pentagon contacts. The Pentagon is BUYING Israeli Arrow missiles.

More pointedly, on the ground the most "up to date" American ( ha ha ) weapon "technology" is the M4 rifle. Thousands of these were sold to Israel SECOND HAND over THIRTY YEARS AGO! But they also use their own infantry weapons, including the venerable Uzi, the Galil and the new modular bullpup assault rifle system.

All Israeli frontline tanks ...the Merkava, are Isreaeli designed and Israeli built. The most "modern" American armour in the Israeli arsenal is the M60 tank...built 40 years ago, and the M113 APC, now fifty years old.

The Israelis did once have fleets of British Centurion tanks ( designed during WW2 ) but long ago converted these...along with Russian T55 and T62 tanks ( fifty years old ) captured in 1973...into immensely protected APCs and bulldozers.

In fact CAT bulldozers are almost the only military ordnance that Israel has acquired from the US in the last twenty years, other than aerial munitions, which is indeed a large import, including deep penetration "bunker buster" bombs suitable to use against Iran.

The parsimony of the Israeli army can be seen in their continued frontline employment of armoured vehicles designed in the 1940s ( Centurion ), converted to Israeli specs in the 1970's-1980's and still in absolutely frontline use. Such...lets be frank..recycled old junk, is the backbone of the Israeli army.

The idea that they are armed to the teeth with US weaponry is utterly ridiculous. Unfortunately, however, journalists like those on UK Tv are utterly ignorant about anything technical. That Alex bloke on CH4 news even referred to an F15 ( during the Lebanon attack ) as an F16...a mistake that no schoolboy of ten with an interest in such matters would ever make, akin to confusing a giraffe with a rhino.

Such is the level of reporting.

In fact, Hizballah in Lebanon were using more up to date Russian anti-tank missiles than anything the Israelis possess.

Incidentally, when leftists tried to organise a boycott of CAT in the US, the share price actually increased! Thats democracy through Capitalism.

One

Saul Starozinsky

Sorry!
I want to correct - Grad hit school in Beersheba and not in Ashdod.

suffolkbor

The left and their media chums in Britain and the west could not care less if Jewish children are targetted for murder by the Islamists .Idealogues as a general rule do not possess values of compassion and decency but rather take the view that the end justifies the means in whatever supposed struggle that they have comitted their mindset to .

hayley, 19

im sorry but some of the comments.. MY GOD! they scream IGNORANCE!
Israel had a tight siege on Gaza for most of the time during the ceasefire, which by itself was a violation of the terms of the ceasefire for those who are quick to defend israel!
for the most part of the ceasefire the borders were blocked so there was no food, medicine etc entering gaza, even when hamas wanted them to lift the borders ISRAEL REJECTED. IN ADDITION, for those of you who thought hamas was firing at "civilians" - if you had done your research you will have found a tunnel was hit - the SAME tunnel which is the source of all medicine, food etc enetering gaza. when israel rejected to lift its borders and allow these necessities to pass through, gaza was suffering and had no other alternative and i truly believe israel knoew this was inevitable SO whilst the world was so focused on the U.S elections, gaza was crying out for help but never heard.
i leave you all with a saying from steven hawking "THE GREATEST ENEMY OF KNOWLEDGE IS NOT IGNORANCE - IT IS THE ILLUSION OF KNOWLEDGE"

i have heard strong arguments on BOTH sides, i have come across jews who have blamed israel and muslims who have blamed hamas along with my own research and i have come to my OWN decision - i am NOT conformist and never will be.

5050 noline

Well done, Hayley. Bless.

A lot of older, wiser heads than you have also done their homework and come to different conclusions. We have perhaps exhausted our idealist zeal and become Realists.

wrighty

During the ceasefire Israel nonetheless killed 30 Gazans; how does THAT work ?
Nice one Hayley.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Philip Honour, if the protesters were not supporting Hamas, who else did they support? of course someone like you will think they did not, how naive, the main idea about protesting was being against Israel and supporting Hamas and Islamic terrorists

phil

hayley, 19-if that refers to your age its good to see younger people taking an interest ,but you will have noticed that your applause is coming from the likes of the insane wrighty -Stephen Hawkins ,s quote needs to be heeded if you want us to believe you and so far many of the facts you quoted are out of context -The borders are shut to keep out suicide bombers and infiltrators and the tunnels main purpose is to smuggle weapons in .It is well known amongst those that care to know that Israel sends in humanitarian aid ,food ,medicine etc as well as the electricity to help its enemy .do you know of any other nation that ever did this ? We all wish for a speedy outcome to this disaster,but not one that will just precede another .I can applaud your care but it must come with pragmatism to be truly useful.You will no doubt notice that I write a lot too,its because I care as much as you .

Towncar

Oh, to be 19 and know everything again..

Lynda

Victoria from Cuba - beaten up by Muslims! You poor thing. Come to New Zealand. It isn't perfect but you won't be hassled to convert or be Muslim. We would love to have you! Don't put up with it guys - come to New Zealand.

Adam B.

wrighty, who was killed? Or is Israel not allowed to kill the Hamas men who were firing dozens of missiles during the ceasefire (and for your info, the missiles were fired first).

Adam B.

hayley, doesn't Egypt have a border with Gaza?

Barbara

Haley, perhaps you do not understand how countries work. Israel is a sovereign nation. The Gaza Arabs have no right to enter Israel, and no right to expect anything from Israel. They are not Israelis, they are Egyptians. If the Israelis want to take pity on them, and allow humanitarian aid to reach them through Israel, that is because the Israelis are civilized and humane,not because the Gazans have any right to it.

The tunnels were used to smuggle weapons, not food or medicine. There has been massive humanitarian aid of food and medicine and fuel through Israel, even with the occasional closure - and the closures have ALWAYS and in every case been in response to terrorist attacks from the Gazans.

Even now, the Israelis are treating in Israeli hospitals and at Israeli expense, any number of Arabs from Gaza, Judea and Samaria. That is a lot more than I would do, I would let their own people take care of them, or not, I couldn't care less.

If you look at them, the Gazans are well-nourished and well-dressed. TV shows us that they have many cars on the roads, many of them fairly new. For all of their whining it is clear that the Arabs of Gaza are far better off than many truly poor people in this world. Considering that per capita the Gazans and the Arabs if Judea and Samaria get more aid than any other group in the world, including more than the Israelis, maybe it is about time that the Gazans took care of themselves instead of being eternal beggars - and the way to do that is to stop spending so much on making war on their neighbors.

GC

Saul Starozinsky @ 1:08 PM

De Telegraaf at http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2919543/__Van_Bommel_roept_op_tot_intifada__.html merely reported that Harry van Bommel was chanting 'Intifada, intifada, Palestina vrij' ('Intifada, Intifada, Free Palestine') at the demonstration. It doesn't (and neither did any Dutch media) report the accompanying crowd chanting 'Hamas, Hamas, Joden aan het gas!'.

I've looked and listened to the YouTube clip claiming this. I can make out 'Hizbollah!' and 'Allah akhbar!' clearly and after several attempts could just make out at one point (it's very unclear) a chant that might possibly have been 'Hamas, Hamas, Joden aan het gas!'.

However my suspicions are aroused as to whether this can be genuinely so (I mean I'm suggesting the audio track was doctored or simply something else was being chanted).

The chant is question is a football hooligan chant and you can hear it for example at http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rFXsFN_fmb0. Needless to say it's been roundly condemned in the Dutch media. The crowd at that demonstration didn't look to me like football hooligans and I'm quite sure that if Harry van Bommel had heard it he would have gestured disapproval.

I see in another post you are unclear about the location of a school you claim was hit by a Hamas missile.

It's not impressive Saul nor helpful nor courteous to Melanie who might well have taken you up on these posts in her pieces and possibly faced criticism as a result.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

GC, Melanie wrote her post yesterday and she did her research right, but Saul posted his opinion later today, well it doesn't matter really we all get the point, thanks Saul for trying your best!

Straydingo

Barbara,

Well said.

Hayley,

10 points for having a go but I think a little more research is in order.

Oh, and try to avoid using source like the BBC, Reuters, Guardian, Independent (or the Not so Independent as I like to call it) etc. It would also help if you visit Israel.

Finally, I liked the Steven Hawkins quote:

"THE GREATEST ENEMY OF KNOWLEDGE IS NOT IGNORANCE - IT IS THE ILLUSION OF KNOWLEDGE"

Personally though I feel that you and your learned Pro Hamas lovers have more to gain from having this quote marinate within your minds.

Roland

Barbara's comment -how morally debased can you get?

peter

Adam B.

Your concern for the nutritional welfare of the Palestinians is touching.

Silly old everybody else for thinking they re in a bit of a spot when they have evidently never had it so good.

Thank you for highlighting their seemingly undeserved well being so admirably.

GC

MM-J @ 8:09 PM.

Thanks for responding and I stand properly corrected about the rocket report and yes I was unthinking to say Saul's contribution was unhelpful and do apologise to Saul for that.

But I stand by my remarks on the Hamas chant he refers to. De Telegraaf did not report that and the YouTube clip is at least suspect in my opinion.

Roland @ 11:06 PM.

Point of your comment? I can't see anything debased, morally or otherwise, about Barbara's post.

Adam B.

peter, to what do you refer? I made no such comment. If you want to make something up, I'll say this:

Your concern for the victims of the nazis of Hamas is truly touching.

Adam B.

Roland, the answer is much more - you can become a Hamas sympathiser.

phil

hayley, 19-HAVE YOU LEFT ? debate normally needs a response .

Roland

GC - re. Barbara's comments. I say they are morally debased because of this: they attempt to de-humanise Palestinians and to diminish and deny their suffering. She describes the inhabitants of Gaza as being 'well-dressed', driving smart cars, and accuses them of 'whining' - a word which has especially disturbing connotations with anyone with an ear for history. She couldn't, apparantly, care less about the medical treatment they receive.
I understand that passions are inflamed in times of conflict - now more than ever we need to watch out for our common humanity and decency.

hayley, 19

yes the 19 does refer to my age and yes i know my vocabulary may not be as developed as some of the older people in here but that does not give some people in here the right to be be condescending gosh. Barbra you say they are all well nourished if this was the case what was the 3 hour ceasefire today about? And if they are truly well dressed then I can only imagine the high flying jobs they must have and the many business they must own(!) and if a reply to this consists of “Israel provides..” then I wont be reading the rest because im sorry but only when the pressure of the world watching amounts, Israel decides to “help” casualties.

An American

Roland,
When reasonable people see common humanity and decency from Hamas and the Palestinians that elected them...then you'll have a leg to stand on... until then...you reasoning is frankly, ridiculous.

hayley, 19

i do apologise for my long essay type comments.. i have just read a comment which ifeel i have to reply. from a magaret muller, i see beyond relegion and see people. i support neither hamas nor IDF. i am on the side of palestinians and israeli CIVILIANS. however i cannot help but feel more empathy for palestine. the same people who are "blamed" for choosing hamas. i mean this war has been going on for so long and every time SOMEONE has let them down. they have all screamed change but done nothing.. when 70% of palestinian children suffer from pychological trauma, i can only imagine what the elderly suffer from, god can only know the sights they have seen over the years. being physically, emotionally and mentally drained i can understand why hamas was chosen, as for the islamic terrorist state - if this was a christian state (for example) i would be furious! would it be called christian terrorist state? NO it would not. this is over land and has always been over land.

John H

As much as I find the comments above informative - we are in large part - speaking to the converted. Reinforcing one's own view (incidentally I invariably agree with Mel and particularly her take on Israel) is not good for either objectivity or waging a logical debate with, and ideological warfare against, fundamentalists. I hope that some of us will make the appropriate responses to pressTV (on second thoughts this is probably a waste of time?) or at least take part in the equivalent discussions in the Guardian and Independent. Sadly, it is not always easy to know when the blinkers are down, and objectivity is not always easy to grasp as I well know from personal experience. So - the debate urgently needs to be extended to more uncomfortable platforms. Incidentally - if you have not seen the video done by David Horowitz on his Freedom Centre Website - it is well worth a look. (Simple but very effective). As we are both 1960s ex lefty Marxists, I know only too well the danger of "secular as well as religious ideology". The 1960s generation that has a lot to answer for in the current anti America and anti Israel mindset.

phil

Hayley it was me who wrote to you and I posed you some questions which you have not had the courtesy to reply to .You have shown concern for others which I have applauded but I am sorry to say you have arrived very late on the scene of the middle east and know very little of its history ,so it is very galling to hear your pronouncements which are obviously derived from soundbites .The vast majority who bother to `post here care deeply at what is happening ,and for both sides I might add. You have every right to comment but please make them balanced and with knowledge of the facts before you apportion blame .

Mordechai

Hi Melanie, great post. For all the anti-Zionists who assure us they're not antisemites!

Nick Clegg is supposed to be "liberal" and a "democrat" yet doesn't seem to care about liberty for Jewish people in this country, or listening to the voice of Jewish communities.

As church leaders are declaring their support for "peace" in the Middle East, where are their condemnations of Hamas? I thought they all "loved Jews"?

I've asked on my blog "How will British churches respond?", but I think the same goes for political parties, Islamic groups, journalists and "critics of Israel".

Also, aren't there laws against supporting terrorism - how about the British people who say "We're all Hamas/Hezbollah now!"

Adam B.

hayley, you sound like you are trying to really understand the conflict and look at it from all angles. I would just like to say this - don't you think the Jews are drained as well? After the Holocaust, they have had 60 years of a genocidal war against them in their homeland. The Middle East conflict is not about Gaza, or the West Bank, or the status of Jerusalem - all of that is scenery (important though it all is). It is about whether a Jewish state can exist in the Middle East at all. The Arab world has consistently said no, and acted accordingly. Remember, the Hamas charter doesn't just call for an end to occupation, or even just an end to Israel. It calls for the extermination of all Jewish people - period. This isn't the result of "weariness" and there is no excuse for it (and it will never lead to peace). Let me put it this way - in 1945 the Jews had just lost a third of their people, 6 million had been murdered in the most horrific way. Did they strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up in German restaurants and cafes? I'm not saying this to have a go at you, I just ask you to think about some of the received wisdom that the media propagates (hope that isn't condescending! I don't mean it to be).

phil

Adam B it looks like hayley has gone the way of so many who shout the odds and run like hell when shown how wrong they are .it is sad as I think she means well,probably embarassed now maybe if we had been rude she would have responded -ah well we tried .

Ta-da! Logical Response

By weight of evidence, I must conclude that there are no limits to the depths of depravity to which Islamists will sink. As such, western civilization should root out the Muslim presence and repatriate it to its natural habitat.

Dan Maxwell

Victoria from Cuba.

Your best bet is to learn some form of self defense like Krav Maga and fight back.
Also try and avoid going into the underground at night, and if you see those thugs there, leave immediately, go grab a coffee and return later and catch the next train.
In a big city like London, no-one's going to care ahoot about you if you get attacked. They don't want to get involved. Same thing happens in Boston and New York. Learn Self Defense and Train Hard.

John

Israel is practicing ethnic cleansing via the demolition of Palestinian homes, leaving them without a roof over their heads, electricity, food and very little water. Where do you think the refugee camps come from? Israel's only objective is to have all Palatines leave Israel to seek a meaningful existence else where. Unfortunately they have no where else to go. Any human life forced into squaller would resist. This is not a century old problem, it started 60 years ago with the creation of Israel. Most of the regions violence occurs in the occupied Territories. Israels occupation is illegal under all UN resolutions. Was the French resistance movement a terrorist organization for resisting Nazi Germany???

Israel is Americas massively armed influence in the middle east. When oil runs out in fifty years and America loses interest in the region, this problem will be resolved and possibly Israel as we know it will be dissolved.

If you think the Palestinians are are naturally violent people, please go to Gaza and be forced to live without adequate food water and housing. Pay tax and have no vote, be imprisoned without the right of a lawyer. Maybe you will also resist?