The Hamas Broadcasting Corporation (ctd)

Dave M

I saw the interview with the medic as well and immediately concluded it was a staged set-up. The BBC reporter Rushdi abu Alouf asked the medic a series of questions which seemed to have been pre-formulated for set responses. It was robotic. The introduction to the interview set the atmosphere with the reporter stressing "kids, women and children" as supposed targets of Israeli military operations. Not news at all, just propaganda. Of course, any normal viewer will be upset by the sight of injured children in this conflict but it would be absurd to conclude the IDF actually targets them. The IDF has dropped many leaflets asking people to leave the zone of conflict and Hamas is operating in crowded, urban areas. More responsible journalists admit Hamas actually wants Israel to unwittingly kill women or children as this is of great use to Hamas to demonise Israel in a propaganda war. The trouble with the Beeb is it's been well and truly hoodwinked and manipulated. It fails to understand terrorists in Gaza are so fanatically devoted to the total destruction of Israel it will stoop to any tactic to sway world opinion.

Paul

UN Speak/international communityese for "I will do bugger all".
Quote:
"This is a very dangerous moment, I think everybody around the world is expressing grave concern. What we've got to do almost immediately is to work harder than we've done for an immediate ceasefire."
-Gordon Brown
Thank God Israel doesn't have to rely on these guys. It seems being Jewish means chosing 2 options, you may be (a)perptetual victim or (b)perpetual scapegoat. Rarely rarely Jews get offered option (c) which is a combination of both (a) and (b).

Noach

Thank God you're here! May your writing continue to go from strength to strength - if only my cultured elite Oxbridge-educated anti-Semite family in Belsize Park could condescend to read you....

But as you say, somewhere out there the ordinary Briton is beginning to twig.

keep it up ..

Jane

Quelle surprise.

Al Beebzera surpasses its own disgusting standards once again.

That is not the first Wikipedia entry entry to be airbrushed of content like that - and is unlikely to be the last. I have to say I was staggered that Wikipedia collected the $6m it asked for from users simply because it is so open to abuse and so damn unreliable.

Again and again I am directed to it when it has no authority whatsoever. Staggeringly, because it has this patina of being somehow democratic because anyone can join in, the dewey-eyed Obama generation somehow thinks this equates to certifiable authority or valuable credence. It is bugger all. It is a lucky dip of loose facts and often no facts at all all presented under this umbrella of being 'knowledgable' and 'by the people'.

Which people, though? Clearly some of these Wiki people have a very strong appetite for aiding a person with as perverse an agenda as Dr Mads Gilbert.

It's not so much Wikipedia as Wikiwho'dliketospinsomething?.

Adam

Melanie, you are too emotionally attached to the Israeli side to write a balanced article. You take whatever the Israelis say as gospel and what anyone else including the BBC says is lies which is utterly absurd. The israelis are not allowing TV crews into Gaza for the obvious reason that they will show the huge number of civilian deaths caused by a disproportionate response by Israel. Whatever you say, hundreds of civilains are being killed and injured and there is a humanitarian crisis looming. You seem to think every male death is the death of a terrorist which is ridiculous acceptance of Israeli propaganda. If this is how a democratic country behaves, then its a good job there are less nations like Israel in the Middle East whose barbaric actions in the name of self defense are a curse on humanity. Who would have thought that a nation born out of a genocide of its future people would behave in such vulgar fashion against its neighbours women and children.

Tory Abroad

And excellent post, as always, thank you Melanie. I waatched this coverage last night and found it highly irregular that a so called 'unbiased' witness should be giving the account that he did. Now I know why my suspicions were raised.

The BBC coverage is indeed a national disgrace, not least because of the manner in which it is swaying public opinion against Israel. The British public deserve more than to be lied to by it's national broadcaster.

wrighty

Presumably you won't be accepting any more BBC money, Mel ? That would be a tad hypocritical.
As for your rant, why will the terrorist state Israel not allow any international reporters into Gaza ? Do they own Gaza ? What are they hiding ?
I'll tell you what they're hiding: WAR CRIMES.

hadrian

As ever, Mel, you only confirm what we suspected all along- how IS it that these forgein medics gain access to a place such as terrorist dominated Gaza and can speak so openly? Obvious answer- plenty of propaganda for Hamas. Wonder what the Norwegian centre right( are there any?!) think of their doc?
Anyway, thanks for putting this in perspective.

suffolkbor

I was watching the BBC news the other week when this medic appeared being seen treating injured folks in the hospital that you mentioned and i thought that there was something amiss when he stated that " This is murder " . doctors who work on purely humanitarian grounds are not usually given to making emotive statements that come down in favour of one side or another .This of course being the BBC it did not particularly surprise me but I had no idea that the good Norwegian Doctor was an anti Israeli Maoist .The BBC are truly despicable and they appear to be getting worse as each year goes by . Thank you for pointing this out Ms Phillips .

D Gray

As far as Bowen and the Blatantly Biased Corporation is concered Hamas are NOT terrorists....so the continued and very obvious Jew hate fest that the BBC has been building up to for the past 15 years will know no bounds.....even if 100 Jewish kids died tommorow at the hands of Hamas it would still be Israel's fault.

Tony

Melanie, thank you for exposing the truth like this. It is high time a petition is sent to Parliament to debate this matter and if you start one, I will be the first to sign it.
I did see ONE male amputee coming out of an ambulance on the news last night; both his legs were missing, although what the Hamas drama producer forgot to add was blood, gore and bones to the stretcher! The stretcher was completely clean and dry and the look on the injured man's face is the worst bit of acting I have ever seen. I was in the military for 4 years and I have seen people who's limbs have been blown off; the effort depicted by Hamas is ludicrous to the point of disbelief.
What is the BBC's goal? To incite hatred in the UK, possibly and to what purpose? Down with the BBC I say.

Louise

Bowen's poisonous report, with its unconscionable subjectivity and its snide jibes at Israel's claims that it is doing all it can to avoid civilian casualties and that Hamas is to blame for the Palestinians' plight ("Try telling that", sneered Bowen, "to the people in Gaza's hospitals ..."), plus the interview with the doctor, were not only on the BBC's News at Ten last night. They had been played at least twice before on the BBC News yesterday evening. I was enraged at the BBC's wall-to-wall anti-Israel coverage last evening. It came complete with an interview by Lyse Doucet (who, to be fair, made a stab at reminding her interviewee that Hamas doesn't recognise Israel's right to exist) with that Israeli "useful idiot" Tom Segev, who called on Israel to negotiate with Hamas and explained that Israel's action is "no longer about justice but about revenge". And, lest we viewers failed to get the message, one of the bulletins showed us a Guardian frontpage for "tomorrow" (i.e. today) - the Guardian alone - and drew our attention to the photos of dead Palestinian children.
I wonder whether many MPs (Messrs Cameron and Hague, for starters) will support Michael Fabricant's condemnation of the BBC, or whether they will be craven and keep their heads below the parapet in the face of the growing electoral clout of the ever-increasing Muslim population of Britain.

GC

It would I think have helped your case Melanie if you had perhaps made it clearer that the information you give about Dr. Mads Gilbert is available to anyone who cares to input 'Mads Gilbert' into the Google search engine and (I don't wish in any way to be offensive but the thought did occur at least to me) doesn't come via a direct satellite link to Mossad.

Indeed it's all there in two clicks including the passage you quote from Wikipedia (on translating the page via Google's translation link).

Dr. Gilbert came to Gaza a week ago to help and of course that's admirable but he is plainly very partisan indeed and I should certainly wish to have independent corroboration of any account he gives.

It's inconceivable that the BBC producer concerned did not gather all this in ordinary conversation with Dr. Gilbert and of course we viewers should have been, well not exactly 'tipped-off', but at least made aware of his extremely partisan position so that we could judge for ourselves what credence to give him.

So I do find for you on this without qualification (and on this occasion at least I'm not going to make any of several qualifications that do occur to me): it's a disgrace.

I suggest incompetence and a lamentable insensitivity on the part of the BBC to the reality of the on-going propaganda war in progress at the moment which I suggest is the real war taking place now and the casualties - amongst which our own cherished English tradition of fair play - in their way just as tragic as the human casualties in this affair.

Incidentally the BBC might care to note that the first entry in the Google list of hits is a CBS item which at least notes that an Israeli intelligence officer has suggested that Shifa hospital is used as a hideaway for Hamas leaders. Did the BBC know this and if so why did they not similarly report it?

Jane

The media are not allowed in, wrighty, because the IDF does not what its troops' precise whereabouts disclosed to Hamas. Your darling little Hamas, meanwhile is doctoring every syllable that foreign reporters broadcast out of Gaza.

Jane

Mel,

I see you've started listing the other stuff you've written on the side again, but what about the web-only entries you've had in the Mail recently? Are they catalogued elsewhere?

Adam B.

wrighty, the British didn't allow the media into the Falkland Islands for the same reason (and it's nothing to do with your alleged "war crimes". It is the terror group Hamas who are guilty of multiple war crimes). Do you contend that the British committed war crimes in the Falklands? If you'd been following these threads you would know we've covered this already.

CCTV

Why are Hamas so squeamish about "civilian" casualties ? every one of their terrorists is "civilian" and every suicide bomber is "civilian"

Roland

We reach a morally degraded state where dead children are cited in justifiction as looking like baby dolls. I urge everyone here to take a deep breath and look at what is being said on these pages.

Edward

Why hasn't Hamas permitted the International Red Cross access to captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit?

The ICRC website states:
"It has been almost 900 days since the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was captured by Palestinian armed factions from Gaza. To date, the ICRC's attempts to visit him and to establish contact between him and his family have been unsuccessful."

What is Hamas afraid of the World knowing?

wonderer

Jane is right, wrighty. Melanie found the media making just such disclosures a few days ago.

Curious that Gilbert apparently uses Iraq as justification for the attack on the WTC but the invasion of Iraq was later.

Also, curious that Israel is asked to negotiate with Hamas about its right to exist when we were all told that Arafat had conceded this as a core point at Oslo. As part and parcel of that, Israel had to arm about 30,000 PLO supporters and allow them into the territories. Previously they had very little weaponry there. Of course, the PLO went on to exceed the agreed quota of arms enormously.

Now Israel has to negotiate for what Arafat had already agreed. OK Hamas can say, "but now we're the elected government", but since when have elected governments had a prescriptive right to tear up the agreements of their predecessors? Something, moreover, for which the predecessor got the Nobel Peace Prize.

Of course, Israel can make further concessions to Hamas and lower its defences yet again. Then what's to stop Islamic Jihad or some other terror group popping up and saying, "That wasn't me Gov. We didn't agree to that" and demanding further concessions, and so on.

Epi

Any actual EVIDENCE apart from Israeli media sources that the IDF have actually warned anyone of anything?

wrighty

Adam: naval bombardment of Gaza is a war crime. The Palestinians have no air force or navy as the Argentinians did, your analogy is rubbish.
The IDF are cowards who are good only at fighting civilians.
Rachel Corrie RIP.
Tom Hurndall RIP.
500 Palestinians RIP.

Hui

Roland, I agree it is extremely terrible.

The primary problem here is that Israel has decided (decades ago) that the Palestinians are not equals. It has since developed into the idea that Palestinians /deserve/ punishment.

Without any human words to sway emotions, a mathematical analysis of the events overwhelmingly places Israel in the role of the disproportionate aggressor. You cannot simply speak about events and define them on the spot (for this allows complete freedom of judgment), you must analyze the events in comparison with prior global history.

Tony

The BBC website is now reporting that an Israeli attack on a UN run school in Gaza has killed 40. I've just been to the UN website and I can find no reference to such an incident. Is the BBC lying, or is the UN reporting simply slow?

Coeur de Lion

Adam B 3.38 pm
Actually, Adam, 'The British' allowed many journos to take part in the Falklands campaign (23 I think)- what about all those lucrative 'I was There' books, 'I counted them out etc etc' and Max Hastings nearly blowing the final surrender by walking unescorted into Port Stanley during the sensitive negs with the Argy CinC. Etc Etc. Read it up.

Shy Guy

The Hamas Broadcasting Corporation

Melanie, that would be the HBC.

Try the "Balestinian Broadcasting Corporation" instead.

The shoe fits.

Phil

Some of these comments actually make me sick.

Brian of London

I helped Israellycool Dave with two pictures yesterday. The both show different men carrying a wounded baby into or around Shifra (probably).

Funny thing, two different men, one wounded baby in different states of undress which creates the image of two wounded babies. Another fine day in Pallywood.

http://podcast.shirenetworknews.net

Ed Barham

Melanie

I was under the impression that journalists were not being allowed into Gaza by Israel, despite a supreme court order - is this correct?
If so no story will ever be verified. I understand the comments on the BBC news last night.

Epi

Tony asked: "The BBC website is now reporting that an Israeli attack on a UN run school in Gaza has killed 40. I've just been to the UN website and I can find no reference to such an incident. Is the BBC lying, or is the UN reporting simply slow?"

I think the answer is that the BBC is a news service and the UN is not.

A UN spokesman has just confirmed the attack in a BBC news broadcast. He has explained that the IDF had a full list of UN facilities and their positions - perhaps they are using it as a target list?

Saul Starozinsky

Unfortunately.. SKYnews now also like The Hamas Broadcasting Corporation.
I saw interview with former israeli oficial where anchorwoman Kay Burley
compared IDF with terrorists. And its only one example from many...

Tony

The BBC now say 30 dead - down from 40 an hour ago. No apoligy yet.
Without any reporters in Gaza how does the BBC verify its so called "reports" from there?

Derek J. Pickard

Melanie Philips obviously doesn't like the coverage coming out of Gaza since it portrays the reality of being bombarded by 500 pound munitions from 30000 feet and many hitting the over crowded areas of Gaza. Today it is tank shells hitting UN schools full of civillians.
Yes, Israel has been hit by rockets but after 40 years of ignoring UN resolutions and allowing so many settlements to be built on the West Bank, the Israelis are undermining any serious attempts towards a realistic peace deal themselves. All we have seen in 40 years is endless meetings, endless chat about meetings, meetings about meetings, meetings about why no meetings can be arranged etc- a circle that never joins up.

phil

Adam you have a lot to say and little of it sensible .The BBC are not allowed in as they no doubt would give away strategic positions -The pictures are coming out of Gaza anyhow showing exactly what hamas want ,some lies as usual some no doubt true sadly -this is war and a war brought about by hamas ,people with no value on life as they have regularly demonstrated-rayan himself decided to play Russian roulette with his own family ,what a sick mentality -do you go along with that ?

'-You have points to put from the other side as is your right but if you want to be given credence at least write something believable .All you are achieving is bringing the insane wrighty back from his patch to post more hatemail -what a waste of space that man is .

HUI this is war not a mathematical exercise.you seem to want to know the truth ,so can I politely ask that you study the history in depth before making your conclusions .you may well get a surprise

joe rose

Hasbara, hasbara.
Try as you may (and you really try) the truth has the bad habit of surfacing. Eventualy.

Keep on hasbaring about

Augustus

On the subject of disproportionality, of which the BBC is so keen to accuse Israel in the Gaza Strip, Mark Steyn has written: "The civilizational clashes...are not inevitable. Culture is not immutable. but changing culture is tough and thankless and something the West no longer has the stomach for. Unfortunately the Saudis, do, and so do the Iranians. and not just in Gaza, but elsewhere the trend is away from 'moderation' and toward something fiercer and even more implacable."

"...when Hashemi Rafsanjani describes the Zionist Entity as "the most hideous occurrence in history", which the Muslim world "will vomit out from its midst with a single atom bomb", that sounds rather specific, if not teetering alarmingly on the
disproportionate."

In the Gaza conflict, disproportionality doesn't lie in the difference between the number of killed and wounded of either side, that is simply a twisted, if not obscene, manipulation of the acts and intentions of a nation in self-defence. Hamas intends to destroy, and until last week, that was not Israel's intention, or its modus operandi. Disproportionality lies in the morality of the conflict, not in its casualty figures. Israel now has to commit itself to the same intentions, and with the same intensity, to which Hamas is committed. if people then say, "but that's not fair, large against small", they should be reminded that Hamas knew that would be the case when they started the attacks. Israel didn't seek out this conflict (although it was inevitable the moment they left the Gaza Strip), but now Israel certainly must achieve a convincing victory.

Derek J. Pickard

A report about the UN school bombing states that "I saw a lot of women and children wheeled in," Fares Ghanem, a hospital official told the Associated Press. "A lot of the wounded were missing limbs and a lot of the dead were in pieces."
It doesn't matter if it is 30 or 40 killed. That is a superfluous argument to make.

phil

I posted this earlier on "the moral----thread and as few scroll back that far it maybe worth repeating -mr owen of course has not replied !
EARLIER POST
January 6th, 2009 1:32pm
frank owen this is for you ,and lest I forget nizar rayan was called and told to leave his home ,but chose to stay with his family ,no doubt thinking he was safe .shows some care for his children ?

Apparently, Benjamin Netanyahu gave an interview and was asked about Israel's
occupation of Arab lands. His response was "It's our land". The reporter (CNN or
the like) was stunned - read below "It's our land..."

"Crash Course on the Arab Israeli Conflict."
Here are overlooked facts in the current & past Middle East situation.
These were compiled by a Christian university professor:

BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY.... ( It takes just 1.5 minutes
to read!!!! )It makes sense and it's not slanted. Jew and non-Jew -- it doesn't
matter.

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, Two thousand
years before the rise of Islam.
2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian
people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over the
land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past
3,300 years.
4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 CE lasted no more than 22
years.
5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital Jerusalem has
never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians
occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders
did not come to visit.
6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures.
Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: in 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave
Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent
left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
10 The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality,
persecution and pogroms.
11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around
630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the
same.
12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the
Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the
100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the
world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own people's lands.
Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the
state of New Jersey .
13. The Arab-Israeli Conflict: the Arabs are represented by eight separate nations,
not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations
initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.
14. The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel
has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the
Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.
15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were
denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites
have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions
passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.
17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were
directed against Israel.
18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the
Jordanians.
19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient
Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like a policy of
preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

we look forward to your response .

Nawab Ibrahim Ali Khan.

Since 1948 the only argument necessary to the Zionist case is the existential one: new human realities have been created, Israel exists, and it has a right to live. It would be far better, and far more conducive to the creation of a genuine peace with the Palestinians and the entire Arab world, if Israel simply rested its case there.
A just and stable settlement must be based upon the creation of a largely demilitarized but viable Palestinian state in almost all of Gaza and the West Bank, a fair sharing of scarce water and joint efforts to develop new sources, some form of divided or shared sovereignty over Jerusalem, a practical solution to the refugee problem,with generous economic compensation from Israel and development assistance from the wealthy states of the international community.The official Palestinian position is that the Palestinian refugees from 1948 and 1967 must be allowed to return to their former homes and villages in what now comprises Israel. Their position is understandable, for there no longer is any reasonable doubt that many, probably most, of the Palestinian refugees did not voluntarily "flee" the country but rather were deliberately driven out by Israeli psychological warfare, economic pressures, outright terrorism, or direct expulsion by the victorious Israeli armies.
The Israeli right wing does not seem to understand the true implications of their slogans: "this is not Benelux," "Israel is a villa in the middle of a jungle," "we live in a bad neighbourhood," etc. Just what do they think will be the outcome of Israeli intransigence and provocations in a neighbourhood including growing Palestinian desperation, rising Arab Islamic fundamentalist fanaticism, and the inexorable, irreversible spread of weapons of mass destruction that can be bought from Israeli friends; left, right & centre?

Epi

Tony now says: "The BBC now say 30 dead - down from 40 an hour ago. No apoligy (sic) yet."

No, the IDF haven't apologised or apparently denied the claim of 30 dead, mostly seeking refuge - but they have suggested (on what evidence, I wonder) that the evil Palestinians had probably booby trapped the UN school.

Tony also says: "Without any reporters in Gaza how does the BBC verify its so called "reports" from there?"

The Radio 4 report I heard was based on an interview with a UN official not based in Gaza and he was going on emails he had received because he could not make direct phone contact with the school. But really, Tony, even the IDF's censorship of the international media can't completely stop contacts with the outside world nowadays.

And I don't think that the BBC's reports have done more than report claims.

Louise

What about the pernicious national broadcaster's CBBC Newsround ad website? How may of us bother to monitor CBBC regularly to see what anti-Israel propaganda might be fed to children, storing up trouble for the future?
The few times over the past decade that I have glimpsed Newsround and seen its reports regarding the Middle East, a distinct bias against Israel has been discernible.

phil

PHIL AT 5.05 could you please call yourself phil one two or even three -I have been here a long time as phil and would appreciate my own byline .

Geoff M

I thought is was a prime duty of good journalists to check out their sources.

It seems their are no good journalists at the BBC.

Just Hamas supporters.

Adam B.

Derek Pickard, name one Arab state which is complying with UN resolutions. Not one.

Adam B.

wrighty, do you know what a war crime is? Using one's navy does not constitute a war crime. deliberately targeting civilians, as hamas does, most certainly is.

Adam B.

Here you go, the school was being used as a base to fire mortar shells by Hamas. The Israeli response set off booby traps left by Hamas. Hamas' actions are utterly depraved, using a school in this manner:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231167272256&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Robert W. (Vancouver, BC)

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine the heavy bias of the reporter in this video: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/4127652/Street-battles-break-out-in-Gaza-City.html

Winston Smith

I would love to reply to this article but if I do, it will not be posted or later deleted because I dared speak badly of the 'Religion of Peace'(i.e. I told the truth about it from what I've read in the Koran, hadiths and Siras).

HarleyDavidson

Derek J. Pickard
Is there something about war you fail to understand? Haven't been keeping up with Durfur lately? Or Turkey indiscriminately bombing Kurds on a daily basis? Hamas marching around hospitals shooting Fatah? Hamas dressed up as doctors and nurses to escape what they started? Hamas using women and children as human shields? Hamas using their holy places to store weapons?

Its one thing being a Hamas sympathizer, however, its a whole new ball game when you become a Hamas propagandist as your words have proven themselves to be.

How to end the fighting? Hamas just has to stop shooting rockets into Israel. Period! What so difficult about that?

Hamas says 30 were killed in a school. Me, well I'm gonna wait until the facts come out before I take anyone's word on this.

Melaine's article was about propaganda and where and who the info was coming from. Unfortunately you failed to grasp English or comprehension when reading. In this particular case it might do you good to recall what Jesus answered when He was asked, "What is truth?"

john doe

excellent post Phil with some invaluable information to fire at the deniers and haters with short TV induced attention spans.

Gareth

My TV Licence is due for renewal this month. I am considering the option of not doing so, to provoke a court case. The BBC is surely violating its charter.

Shy Guy

As usual, England hides the facts to suit their fancy.

Here's the initial response from Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs on the UN school incident. Hamas beasts are to blame, as usual.

More details at the JPost.

David Vance

Can I just add that we are detailing BBC BIAS against Israel over on Biased BBC. Hope you may find time to pop over and add your voice to ours.

David Vance - Editor
Biased BBC

Margaret Muller-Johansson

phil, you are right, you remind him before and he never get it!

Ben 10

Derek J. Pickard
January 6th, 2009 5:44pm
"Melanie Philips obviously doesn't like the coverage coming out of Gaza since it portrays the reality of being bombarded by 500 pound munitions from 30000 feet and many hitting the over crowded areas of Gaza. Today it is tank shells hitting UN schools full of civillians."

A bit quick on the draw there Dereck.

I suspect there may be a little more to the story. Admittedly, I can understand lots of people getting very excited though.

Ben

Epi

Adam B says: "Here you go, the school was being used as a base to fire mortar shells by Hamas. The Israeli response set off booby traps left by Hamas. Hamas' actions are utterly depraved, using a school in this manner:

http://www.jpost.com/. . ."

Jerusalem Post, so it MUST be true! Except that this is the second version of the tale from the IDF. Remind anyone of Bloody Sunday?

Jimimac

'Wrighty' writes of the BBC's money, but, like the Government, the BBC only has money from the licence payer via poll tax, and, like the government, they seek to brainwash us with our own money.

Hoob

Mark Twain to his visit to Jerusalem in 1867 wrote that the place was dirty and neglected; this was at the time of the Muslim Ottoman Empire. His description clearly demonstrated that not only that Jerusalem was no capital for Muslims it was not important for Muslims for centuries.

phil

Nawab Ibrahim Ali Khan.
January 6th, 2009 6:30pm -WISH YOU WERE THE NEGOTIATOR ,SADLY THAT IS THE ROCKETERS AT THE MOMENT. we may not agree on everything but it seems we could at least talk .there would be much to discuss but with goodwill it could be achieved.Maybe more like you will come forward and try to talk peace and sense .

sarah

if it is indeed facts that the BBC are reporting then apart from reporting that the UN school was targeted by Israel perhaps they should have finished the report with the facts that the UN school was being used to store weapons and a base from which to fire rockets into Israel.
BBC report the facts but ALL the facts.

phil

some of you might like to read this my good friend received this email from his friend in Israel -I trust my own friend so here it is from an Israeli citizen .
"Today on Israel radio I heard an interview with a representative of our Defence Dept who said they have access to telephone nos. in Gaza and beginning two days ago began calling the Arab population of Gaza in areas where the Israel Air Force was going to bomb and left messages in Arabic telling them to get out, since their gov't, led by Hamas, had placed strategic weapons and ammunition in their area and Israel was forced to destroy it to protect it's citizens.

First, let me say that the idea of placing ammunition and weapons among it's citizenry is a violation of human rights and the UN. This is something the Arab gov'ts have been doing in just about every war with Israel. Hamas is among the most uncaring and even among it's citizenry that supports them they have used their homes and living space to store ammunition and weapons. Hezbullah in Lebanon did the same thing.

The other point I want to make is that we have been extremely careful to avoid civilian casualties and when was the last time in the history of warfare that any gov't called it's enemy populations and told them to get out since their areas were targeted and tried to protect civilians. To my knowledge this is a first.

I don't think you'll see this story in the popular western press. But it did happen and is happening here. On two different occasions in the past two days I personally heard on radio that our gov't thru the ministry made more than 90,000 telephone calls per day to Gaza residents warning them that their specific area was targeted.

Please let your friends and neighbors know about this action that does show we care, and don't let the local media cry about the poor civilians who are being massacred when their own Hamas gov't cares less about them than their mortal enemies."

WE NEVER HEAR THIS KIND OF TALK FROM HAMAS SUPPORTERS DO WE ?

James-Guy Jacobs

Fantastic article, Melanie. You're doing a magnificent job, all power to you. I hope your article receives the widest possible audience.
Phil - great work too.
Wrighty - you're a disgrace.

Lou Dacht

Nawab Ibrahim Ali Khan.

Nicely couched but what you have to say amounts to no more than a threat. Same old, same old.

robins111

Pallywood strikes again with different actors.

I'm waiting for the Green Helmet guy and Flat Fatima.

Good objective reporting.

Graeme from Canterbury

When is Jeremy Bowen and all the other useless leftwing incompetents going to be dismissed from the Bolshevik Broadcasting Corporation?

Brian Moshe

A great post from phil (at 6-28pm). I will definately be referring to your many points in the future when I am in debate with Muslims and their useful idiots.

However, one comment in your post set me thinking: you write: "Out of the
100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs [the Palestine Arabs] is the only refugee group in the
world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own people's lands."

When what used to be called East Pakistan broke away from Pakistani rule (it was virtually colonial rule) following a bloody civil and military conflict against Pakistan and achieved independence as Bangladesh in the 1970s, thousands of citizens who had been loyal to the Pakistani regime fled to Pakistan in genuine fear of their lives.

After many years they are still living in isolated poverty in refugee camps and are stateless. The Pakistani National Front party has called for them to be deported on racial grounds. If they returned to Bangladesh they could face death, even though many of them have never been there, being born in Pakistan.

This what a Muslim state has done to loyal fellow-Muslims. Few know of this group and even fewer seem to care.

Rose

Joseph Goebbels was the architect and mastermind behind the mass psychology manipulation of the Anti-Jew Propaganda Machine of Nazism.

HAMAS has now a Propaganda Machine in place as Evil and Efficient using people who are controlled by the Forces of Darkness to sprew out Lies in the form of gross misrepresentations of the truth,twisted facts and staged distortions

Julian

We must make a distinction. Just because a lefty loony anti-semite says something, it does not make it automatically a lie.
We must acknowledge that non-combatants are being killed in Gaza. What are we going to do about that?

A. Jebusite

Phil,

"7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem..."

Excuse me.

Dave

Gosh, Mel. If only there was something you could do to protest?
I know! How about stopping appearing on the BBC?

Straydingo

Adam,

Dude are you serious...if Hamas wanted to let the western media in it could without the need of going in via Israel - they could smuggle them in via one of the hundreds of tunnels or even easier by boat – have you ever looked at the map of Israel?

I'm sure you are familiar with the concept of PR - well PR is a peacetime way of saying Propaganda and the Islamists are experts at using the media for their own PR means - Hamas are not stupid - they have some brilliant minds working for them who know how to play to the weak underbelly of the west, which is embodied by the leftwing moonbats who keep posting anti Israel hollow comments devoid of any factual references.

As I have said before, I really would like to have some new insights provided by those that may have an opposing view, as this is how one is able to broaden his/her mind and refine her/his own view.

However, I am not interested in emotionally charged opinions which are fuelled by individuals that are more interested in trying to stakeout the moral high ground whilst ignoring the facts.

I am neither Jewish nor Israeli, just a humble Aussie living in London for last 10 years who is horrified at the rise of Anti Semitism that I’m seeing spill out across Europe.

YA

both BBC and Sky broadcast images of some cloths mixed with blood, bloody spots on the wall and crying children standing quietly around.

and then an engineered interview with IDF spokeswhoman who was caught as dummy, in an unguarded moment smiling, mechanically telling in millionths time "hamas is to blame for civilian casualties".

but honestly - such simple thing as mortar crew in the UN school yard doesn't matter eh?
Obviously, it is a civilian mortar crew.
anyway, it's ours.
its blessed.
we are all hamas now.

Ven

I seen many things in my time but someone claiming that the media is actually anti-israeli? This is disgraceful. For the past 60 years Israel has done nothing but drive out Palestinians from their land and make the lives of those who stayed miserable. Somehow because the media is slightly better at reporting these crimes than before, you regurgitate Israeli lies. I don’t have to tell you more to explain the viewpoint of those who rightfully despise Israel for the terrorist nation it is than to quote the words of the founder of Israel David Ben Gurion when he said “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

ABC

wrighty,
you're trying to apply your own definition of war crimes. A naval bombardment is not regarded as crime just because opposite side has no navy.

Adam B.

Epi, the BBC said so, so it MUST be true! (Sarcasm for those unable to see it). Are you saying Hamas doesn't use human shields? What better than a school - maybe a hospital.

Believe what you want, you will anyway.

Dave M

"The official Palestinian position is that the Palestinian refugees from 1948 and 1967 must be allowed to return to their former homes and villages in what now comprises Israel."

It's true the Palestinians have rights. These days Israel recognises this. The U.S, also recognises that reality. However, let us not forget Israel is essentially a tiny strip of land, far smaller than it has been in ancient times. Israel was totally recognised and granted autonomy by the Roman Empire hundreds of years before Islam appeared on the scene. Thus, there will never ever be any justification for the denial of acceptance of Israel as a Middle Eastern State. Jews have more rights to be where they are than many other nationalities who today live in lands they occupied only recently in history. Israel is the only democratic, tolerant society in the Middle East and does not hang people in public as happens in Iran. It recognises equality of the genders and tolerates diversity. My guess is when the smoke clears, Israel will be quite willing to work towards a Palestinian State as the E.U. and Americans wish but will the Arab World ever accept Israel? It's doubtful. A huge perentage of Arabs view both Jews, Christians and infidels as unwelcome in what they somehow consider to be a purely muslim lands.

Tino

Hui (January 6th, 2009 4:28pm), what’s this?: “The primary problem here is that Israel has decided (decades ago) that the Palestinians are not equals. It has since developed into the idea that Palestinians deserve punishment.”

Do you think that this is a statement that casts some people as unequal?:

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."(48:29, The Koran)

Or this:

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (5:51, The Koran)

Or this:

“Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." (9:73, The Koran)

Do you think that those teachings have influenced this Hamas MP Yunis Al-Astral (aired on Al-Aqsa TV on April 11, 2008):

"Allah has chosen you for Himself and for His religion, so that you will serve as the engine pulling this nation to the phase of succession, security, and consolidation of power, and even to conquests thorough da'wa and military conquests of the capitals of the entire world.

"Very soon, Allah willing, Rome will be conquered, just like Constantinople was, as was prophesised by our Prophet Muhammad. Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam – this capital of theirs will be an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread through Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, and even Eastern Europe.

"I believe that our children or our grandchildren will inherit our jihad and our sacrifices, and Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them. Today, we instil these good tidings in their souls, and by means of the mosques and The Koran books, and the history of our prophets, his companions, and the great leaders, we prepare them for the mission of saving humanity from the hellfire on the brink of which they stand."

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x_qbKrOF64w

This Hamas MP seems to think, like The Koran, that the jihad is a global one and that its purpose should be to have everyone in the world subjugated (that’s unequal, Hui) to Islam.

Since you’re so worried, Hui, about people being treated unfairly or being assumed to deserve punishment, you will no doubt tell us what you think of Article 7 of the Hamas Charter, which reads: "O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP109206

That little sentiment, from Hamas is based on Hadith Bukhari (Vol 4, Book 52, No. 177) and quotes Prophet Muhammad:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html

So, you see, Hui, today it’s Israel, another day it’s New York, another day it’s Madrid. The global jihad views any non-Muslim as inferior (that’s unequal, Hui) to Islam. So where on earth have you come up with this rubbish that: “Israel has decided (decades ago) that the Palestinians are not equals. It has since developed into the idea that Palestinians deserve punishment.”?

Adam B.

Ven, what's the source for your quote? I believe it to be false. Perhaps you can tell me when "Palestine" was an independent entity? Surely it would have to be in order to be "stolen". When did a separate "Palestinian" identity arise? Do you know anything about the history of the area?

Dixon

I forgot to mention...excellent article Mel. The absurdity of Gilberts statements on TV were apparent to me even without knowing his background. Clearly, he is NOT going to see dead Hamas fighters, because they arent going to be taken to the hospital. He therefore has no real basis to make any evaluation of the proportions of combatants to non-combatats involved.

Dixon

Adam, "Who would have thought that a nation born out of a genocide of its future people..."

Ive tried, but cannot make head nor tail nor any sense out of that line of yours!

Dixon

Winston Smith
January 6th, 2009 7:09pm
I would love to reply to this article but if I do, it will not be posted or later deleted because I dared speak badly of the 'Religion of Peace'(i.e. I told the truth about it from what I've read in the Koran, hadiths and Siras)."

I know your irritation, but try re-phrasing what you have to say.

phil

ven I have no idea where you got your quote from as you do not quote your scource-hamas? but here is a quote and its scource (-maybe ADAM B OR KATE A will be able to deal with what is probably a lie)

"""

"The world will not permit the Jewish people to seize the state as a spoil, by force." Second the Jewish people did not have the means to do so. And third and most important, it would be immoral, and the Jews of the world would never by this immoral cause. "We would then be unable to awaken the necessary forces for building the country among thousands of young people. We would not be able to secure necessary means from the Jewish people, and the moral and the political sustenance of the enlightened world. . . . Our conscience must be clean . . . and so we must endorse the premise in relation to the [Palestinian] Arabs: The [Palestinian] Arabs have full rights as citizens of the country, but they do not have the right of ownership over it." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 97)

Similarly in 1928, Ben-Gurion stated that there is no contradiction between Zionist and Arab aspirations. He stated that Zionism stands for absolute justice for both parties. He explained that:

"our sense of morality forbids us to deny the right of a single [Palestinian] Arab child, even though by such denial we might attain all that we seek." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 159)--------------regardless of all this we are dealing in the now ven DBG is long passed (rip)

Adrian

Phil
"Crash Course on the Arab Israeli Conflict."
Here are overlooked facts in the current & past Middle East situation.
These were compiled by a Christian university professor:"…”it makes sense and its not slanted Jew or non-Jew – it doesn’t matter.”

Can you please confirm your source. I ask as I found this list interesting because I felt it was still biased and missed what I considered as significant information which could assist greater understanding of the current situation.

A five minute search via Google on these "facts" led me to MiddleEastFacts.com which purports to be a website for the truth. Interestingly this website also has on its front page “Attention: If you are seeking the Mohammed cartoons that inflamed the Muslim world, please find them in our Photo Gallery.”, as well as the opportunity to vote for my favourite Jew.

I reserve my judgement on this being a neutral source.

This website attributes a list of identical 20 facts as being “a compilation of articles by Aish HaTorah."

Aish HaTorah is described by Wikipedia, (which I accept is not always accurate) as:-
“Aish HaTorah ("Fire of the Torah") is an Orthodox organization and yeshiva. Aish HaTorah, is a staunchly pro-Israel organization that promotes Jewish pride and helps send young Jewish Americans to Israel. The organization's stated mission is "providing opportunities for Jews of all backgrounds to discover their heritage." Its headquarters are in the Old City of Jerusalem. The government of Israel awarded it 40 percent of the land facing the Western Wall."

Assuming that what I have found is accurate, to have these facts presented as being by a neutral source is questionable. Thus my original question regarding their source.

For a balanced view PLEASE, PLEASE do your own research and question what are presented as the “Facts”

Oh and if you are interested Middleeastfacts.com also has 9 facts which prove that (and I quote) “For those of us who believe that the "Israeli Occupation" has been bad for the Palestinian people, these facts may change your perception. The "occupation" seems to have brought nothing but good to the Palestinians - we can only imagine how much worse they would be if Israel hadn't helped them!."…….

Dominic

EPI,

You posted a question asking "Any actual EVIDENCE apart from Israeli media sources that the IDF have actually warned anyone of anything?"

The answer is "Yes, there is evidence".
The following was reported by The Associated Press on December 27th:
"Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons."

You can look it up on AP's website (Here's an URL for you
- http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/The+Associated+Press?tid=informline).

Actually, three are many news sources which confirm this and the other measures taken by the Israelis to warn the Gazan civilian population. I thought that you'd find Associated Press to be the most credible but there are others to choose from.

Lee Laurie

Epi....were you present on "Bloody Sunday"? No?
Didn't think so.

phil

Adrian-good try ,but do you oppose the facts is more the question not where they came from .I think your interest is tongue in cheek ,n,est pas ? I did quote my scource too .

phil

A. Jebusite-what is it you wish to say "-excuse me " is hardly a historical comment

phil

for those with a more historical interest --According to the Hebrew Bible, the Jebusites were a Canaanite tribe who inhabited the region around Jerusalem prior to its capture by King David ..I THINK A JEBUSITE IS ONE WHO SPLITS HAIRS

A. Jebusite

phil,

Not "the region", the city - there is more to the truth that Wikipedia.

Joshua 15:63 "As for the Jebusites the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem unto this day."

ps. Yasser A was one too.

Tommy

Tzipi Livni said that Israel "doesn't do deals with terror, we fight terror," adding that Israel would "change the equation in the region" and that the days of "Hamas firing rockets and Israel showing restraints" had ended...
................................
Regarding the Mumbai attack
It is now emerging that the Jewish center Nariman House was the primary target in the islamic jihadist attack-- the reason--"they wanted to sent a message to Jews across the world"
I think the Jews got the message but our gullible media didn't

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1218869&pageid=0

Israel is fighting for its life against islamic forces obeying koranic and hadithic dictats and our media cannot fathom that if Israel fails-- the death knell of the west has been sounded

Emmet Sweeney

Please stop paying the bastards their license-fee, sorry, tax. No taxation without representation.

phil

A. Jebusite go for a haircut :)honestly I dont know what the point is you are trying to make-is it just humour ?

tommy

We unfortunately have a media that abhors fact in favour of fiction

"REMEMBER JENIN"
Even here Israel was condemned out of hand by the world press
.................................

Part of a report by J Goldberg
:-

One more thing, speaking of pornography -- we've all seen endless pictures of dead Palestinian children now. It's a terrible, ghastly, horrible thing, the deaths of children, and for the parents it doesn't matter if they were killed by accident or by mistake. But ask yourselves this: Why are these pictures so omnipresent? I'll tell you why, again from firsthand, and repeated, experience: Hamas (and the Aksa Brigades, and Islamic Jihad, the whole bunch) prevents the burial, or even preparation of the bodies for burial, until the bodies are used as props in the Palestinian Passion Play. Once, in Khan Younis, I actually saw gunmen unwrap a shrouded body, carry it a hundred yards and position it atop a pile of rubble -- and then wait a half-hour until photographers showed. It was one of the more horrible things I've seen in my life. And it's typical of Hamas. If reporters would probe deeper, they'd learn the awful truth of Hamas. But Palestinian moral failings are not of great interest to many people.
http://tinyurl.com/6qadcr

A. Jebusite

phil,
I should have thought it was quite clear. You said "7. King David FOUNDED the city of Jerusalem...". But he didn't, it was already there. The Jebusites were living in it. And continued to do so for long afterwards, alongside the Jews. Do you not appreciate the significance of that?

Andrew

I'm appalled by the biased BBC reporting on the conflict.

Last night they had Gordon Brown on the news saying....."So first we need an immediate ceasefire"...... they then cut him off mid sentence.

What he said (in full) was....

"So first we need an immediate ceasefire.....and that includes a stopping of the rockets into Israel. Secondly, we need some resolution of the problem over arms trafficking into Gaza, and thirdly we need the borders and the crossings open and that will need some international solution."

One of the few times that Gordon Brown gets it right and the BBC can't even report it accurately.

Shame on them.

peter

Talking about media.

Why does Israel block the media from going into Gaza?

What are they frightened of?
That the truth might get out?
That pictures of fathers cradling dead Palestinian children might work against them?

Says it all really.

Adrian

Adrian-good try ,but do you oppose the facts is more the question not where they came from .I think your interest is tongue in cheek ,n,est pas ? I did quote my scource too .

Phil,

Happy to clarify that my interest and thoughts on such a serious matter are not lighthearted or tongue in cheek.

The point I was/am attempting to make is in relation to what is the truth and the media’s responsibility to provide accurate and well researched information.

Your post relied on the independence of the source of the 20 facts to provide it with greater weight and gravitas.

In my opinion, the source is not independent and that the selection of these specific 20 facts has occurred not to generate understanding or knowledge but simply to support one persons position.

As they say – in war truth is often the first casualty.

Re: “do I oppose the facts” – yes, some I do, but it is more that I see the majority as irrelevant to the current situation. I could equally provide a list of 20 legitimate facts that would add weight to the Palestinian position.

For clarity I do not support the Hamas position nor however do I support the current Israeli approach to resolving their legitimate security issues.

So I am not accused of sitting on the fence – what is my position?

It is varied and allocates blame and responsibilities on multiple parties.

As a start I support the implementation of the spirit and laws as outlined in the Israeli Declaration of Independence. Section Six is a good starting point, or the later addition to the Declaration: - the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty.

I would also like to see the recommendations from the Bertini Report implemented by BOTH sides. (This report is an interesting read – should anyone be interested the link is http://domino.un.org/bertini_rpt.htm)

I would like the spirit of the original Balfour declaration to be honored; the establishment of a home for the Jewish people BUT “nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine…”

I abhor the Hamas rocket attacks as well as the severity of the Israeli response and sincerely wish for the safe return of abductees and prisoners on both sides. It is a fine line between terrorist and soldier and it is often the powerful party that makes this distinction.

I would encourage Israel to release and seek release of all EU and US funding that is currently being withheld and for the PA to use this money wisely and for humanitarian purposes. Depending on th survey between 50 to 80 percent of the population in Gaza live below the poverty line, and this is before th most recent round of destruction.

I could go on and on but I shan’t.

Kind Regards

hadrian

A few posts up we're told 'it doesn't matter whether the death toll's thirty or forty- this is a superfluous argument to make.'
Right, if that's the case then you'll understand Israel's final loss of patience with their Hamas tormentors and the incessant rocket targetting of its citizens.
Palestine's problem is its underlying adherence to Islamic Jihad which'd see the genocide of first Israeli Jews and the Jews everywhere they can be found. Sound Familiar?
Again, on the 'infants as dolls' remarks, I must point out this was to refute accusations that Israeli troops were deliberatley targetting and tearing children limb from limb.
wrighty, if your country was being daily bombarded by deadly rockets I rather think you'd want the source quashed...Remember it was Hamas that broke the ceasefire.

Straydingo

Adrian,

I have only quickly skim read the post from Phil you reference and most of the state ments seem pretty sound.

My question to you is which one of these points do you think false as this would enable the community to provide feedback?

wrighty

Hadrian: "Remember it was Hamas that broke the ceasefire."

No sir, a common (and of course deliberate) mistake. Israel killed 30 Palestinians during the so-called ceasefire. How many Israelis did the Palestinians kill ?

Ronnie

A. Jebusite, Ghengis Khan's original name was Tamujin (Iron Worker).

Do you not appreciate the significance of that?

phil

wrighty if you changed your name to billy liar we might take heed of you .the Israelis kill hamas killers and never target ordinary Palestinians . WHY NOT JUST TELL US THE TRUTH AND SAY I HATE JEWS,WE WOULD HAVE MORE RESPECT FOR YOU .

phil

A. Jebusite Semantics seem rather unimportant in the present situation ,so I will leave you to it .

phil

Adrian sorry you need to get real -I am not getting involved in what you believe about sources -reject them if you like that is your privilege-You can write to the PA and any other authority in the Palestinian world and tell them what you would like to-see -I wish you luck ,just tell us all when you achieve something.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

I think their is a reason about all this things, and I think something good is going to come out,

Hopefully peace is going to happen very soon!

Barry Larking

"It is beyond appalling that the BBC should have presented this apologist for Hamas as a dispassionate first-hand observer of the situation in Shifa hospital. Whether it is cynical, malicious or just plain incompetent, the BBC’s coverage of Gaza is a national disgrace. Given that such propaganda will invariably incite people to hatred, hysteria and even violence, the case for Parliament debating the BBC’s performance is overwhelming."

Just shows what one can achieve by planting a few simple bombs on London Transport. "We (sic) have failed to listen." Meanwhile there are dozens (yes, dozens) of references in BBC programmes to the debt 'we' all have to Islam. Ever feel you are being led by the nose? And what of that large elephant in the room which the BBC cannot see ... Iran?

A. Jebusite

phil,
Semantics? It was you who (randomly) posted a list of statements making exclusive claims on Jerusalem. What I pointed out was that one, an important one, was incorrect. What do you think the dispute is about, if not matters like the Palestinians' rights over Jerusalem.

Ronnie

A.Jebusite, I really do think you have to bring your arguments a little more up to date to allow us to grasp your point.

We'll be smiting the Hittites next.

phil

A. Jebusite looks like you have been smoked out now -what about the other 19 - try and find some other straws to scratch .

HarleyDavidson

wrighty- No sir, a common (and of course deliberate) mistake. Israel killed 30 Palestinians during the so-called ceasefire. How many Israelis did the Palestinians kill ?
=================================
Wrong again, lad. Here are the facts:
The Qassam rocket was first launched into Israeli territory on March 5, 2002, by the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades

A total of about 450 Qassam rocket attacks were launched against Israel over the two years 2003 and 2004.

During 2004 HAMAS was responsible for an increase in Qassam rocket attacks. A rocket attack on Sderot on June 28 was the first fatal attack against Israelis using Qassam rockets. Two Israelis died in the attack. In September, two Israeli children were killed in Sderot from another Qassam rocket attack.

Adrian

Straydingo
Dingo

I am sorry that I cannot provide a detailed personal response to you request. I am currently travelling and time is short.

However I offer as an alternative the following link:-
http://www.ilaam.net/Intl/ZionistMyths.html

This is from a pro Arab website and just like the original list of 20 provided by Phil, I do not necessarily agree with all that is on here.

A few quick personal points as to the original 20 facts.

To me the Israel became a nation in 1948, I suppose it comes down to what is your definition of nation.

I object to the mixing of state and religion in point one. Any valid comparison should be between state and state or religion and religion. It is interesting to note that there is a branch of Zionism that does not recognise the state of Israel.

The use of the word Palestinian as a key defining group. In point 2 as I referenced in my last post, the Balfour Declaration acknowledges Israel’s obligations to the “non Jewish inhabitants of the land.” If we replace the word Palestinian with the term “non- Jewish inhabitants” are the 20 facts still accurate.

My issue is that I still see most of these facts as irrelevant. The question of sovereignty over Jerusalem has been discussed and decided in many of the accords and agreements written, agreed and unfortunately mostly broken in the past 50 years. These agreements should be given priority of importance on the matter than the direction in which Muslims pray.

To me the minute we start using history as a definite source to defend our positions, particularly in the Middle East we will have failed. The only solution, again in my opinion, is looking to the future and whilst being cognisant of the past we should not be beholden to it.

Phil, what can I say.. sorry you feel this way. If via this board I have caused anyone to question and research the information that they receive as "the truth" then I have achieved something.

Kind Regards

Adrian

H.Thornton

Melanie's description of the BBC as "The Hamas Broadcasting Corporation" is accurate so far as it goes.

But the BBC is clearly not only brazenly anti-Semitic, but anti-Christian, and sympathetic to the aims of Islam generally.

Further - combine all that with the fact that the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip and Britain's "No Go" areas have a great deal in common. Both are sources of Islamist terrorism that is determined to drag Israel and Britain towards very similar futures - but instead of condemning Islamist terrorism, the BBC is concentrating on being anti-Israel. The BBC has indeed, so little concern for the British people that it comes close to being anti-British.

The BBC is, to my mind, considerably worse than merely pro-Hamas.

Adam B.

wrighty, you are simply wrongy.

FACT: The Palestinians broke the ceasefire first by firing several rockets, (the Israeli civilians were in their shelters, so casualties were relatively low - perhaps this was unsporting of them). The Palestinians you mention were Hamas operatives firing the missiles (and I don't think it was 30 - what is your source)? I suppose it was unsporting of Israel to fire back - didn't they read the script? And why don't the Palestinians have any shelters? They had the money for building them.

Adam B.

Jebusite, what are you going on about?

The conflict is about whether the Islamic world can ever accept a Jewish state in the Middle East.

phil

Adrian ,there is no need to apologise ,all that I ask is that you get things right ,you quote "It is interesting to note that there is a branch of Zionism that does not recognise the state of Israel." are you aware the Zionisn is the desire ofsome of the scattered Jewish people to return to the land of Israel?,nada mas Adrian ,so your quote is rather strange unless it is from another weird sect of so called Jews that people dig up from time to time .

david

i just wanted to say, fantastic article, but wrighty, u are talking lies. at least when u argue, get your facts right! you man as well you say you hate jews, as that is obvious! thats all :)

rob

I despise Hamas and everything they stand for. But innocent people are being massacred here and to make unjust political capital out of this is just despicable.

Anyway Dr Mads Gilbert is not the only source of the reports… there are a number of Doctors such as Eric Fosse, working at al-Shifa and they have all been reporting the same thing

.no

I’m Norwegian, and I apologize in advance for any violation of your English language. I feel compelled to comment on this article, as some of the other comments are asking what the Norwegians themselves are saying. I’m unbiased to the conflict, not Arab, nor Jew, just plain male, straight, adult, white .no
Let me start by saying that what Melanie is writing is only partly true. Not because the research or facts she has found on Mads Gilbert isn’t true, far from it, she is spot on, but partly true because there is more, and much more.
First of all, there has been two Norwegian Doctors @ Shilfa in Gaza, Mads Gilbert and Erik Fosse. Together these two has been taken into the warmth of Western media, mostly on live broadcast, to give their comments and observations, in their own tone of voice, under the assumption (I mostly believe) from Western broadcast media that they were some kind of unbiased, “Medicine Sans Frontiers” (I’ll revert to that (MSF) in a minute) light version, and Western broadcast has let them go on and on, on the air with no questions asked, and no information to the Western audience about their background, political standing or history. And alas, Norway has got 2 brand new world known Rockstars and heroes to worship! And boy do we do! The Norwegian media coverage of the current conflict has since they became aware of Mads Gilbert and Erik Fosse’s presence been a transition from uncritically letting them on air at all hours and to freely let them comment and broadcast their own stories in their own tone of voice, their pictures, movies to the Norwegian people (Without telling the Norwegian people anything about their background or political standings), then transitioned into personal interviews about which BBC’s and CNN’s of the world they have been broadcasted on, and what their broadcast agenda are for their next day’s, topped entirely when the anchor at NRK (Norwegian BBC) encouraged Norwegian viewers not to miss Erik Fosse’s announced participation on Larry King.
It is understandable that this happens in Norway. If you look at the past thousand year’s history of us, it pretty much goes like this…
Year 1000 - Vikings ruled the world… Medieval, hit by church, plague and little ice age, never to recover until… 1966, the Americans found oil outside our shores.
Since the Medieval ages Norway has been tossed back and forth between Denmark and Sweden, Sweden and Denmark, and we had a short visitation from the Germans in the 1940’ies. We have centuries of history as underdogs and inferiority in our genes, and our most famous person worldwide is Ole Gunnar Solskjær!
Now, the Norwegian media off course new all the history of the two Doctors Gilbert and Fosse, and so did those of that follow politics and media with a critical eye. (Not many Norwegians do, cause it doesn’t matter, we’ve got oil you see…) The main Norwegian broadcasters NRK and TV2 and “all” (the ones I have managed to follow) the radio stations, printed and online media has up until the 7th of January let the 2 good Doctors speak freely to the Norwegian people as mentioned before, without giving any information about their background, whilst a massive discussion was going on in the online chat and discussion rooms. You see, Gilbert and Fosse is mostly marginalized and hidden far up north @ the University Hospital of Tromsø, but they do surface from time to time with their extreme radical left opinions. Here’s a couple of highlights. (Because there is so much more).
In general:
• Both are sworn communist for more than “30” years, members of RED on the far-far left side, and has supported everything from Stalin, Mao to Castro, and their actions, over the years.
• Both have been members of the Pro Palestine movement for the past “30” years, supporting everything from PLO, Hezbollah to Hamas, and their actions, over the years
• Gilbert supports terror and terrorism as a legitimate method of achieving your goals.
• Gilbert has spoken up to support the 9/11 attacks on WTC.
• Both denounces and actively works to discredit the Nobel Peace Prize winners “Medicine Sans Frontiers”, because they do not take side in a conflict.
• Both have spoken out against the Norwegian Doctors and Surgeons going to Afghanistan to treat wounded Norwegian men and women servicing as peace keeping soldiers there.
In particular, two translated quotes from biographical interview with both of them.
Source: Apollon. Reasearch Magazine University of Oslo: http://www.apollon.uio.no/vis/art/2002/3/portrett
Quote: ”I sommer dro Fosse tilbake til Kfair med sin 14 år gamle sønn. Området hvor landsbyen ligger, er ikke tilgjengelig på vanlig måte, men takket være kontakter i Hizbollah, kunne far og sønn komme seg inn. Mens andre fedre drar på fotballturneringer med sine barn, reiser altså Fosse med sin sønn inn i et forbudt område under beskyttelse av en shiamuslimsk gerilja.”
Translated: “This summer Fosse went back to Kfair with his 14 year old son. The area where the village lies is not accessible in ordinary ways, but thanks to contacts in Hizbollah, father and son could get in. Whilst other fathers goes on football tournaments with their children, Fosse on the other hand take shis son into forbidden areas under the protection of a Shiite muslim guerilja.”
.no: My 2 c… I wonder what his son is going to grow up to believe and fight for.
Source: Dagbladet 30.09.2001. http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2001/09/30/284907.html Same article where Mads Gilbert defends the 9/11 terrorist attacks on WTC, another of his comerades, Hans Husum, also residing at the University of Tromsø Hospital (Yes, theres a whole bunch of them up there) states:
Quote: ” - Jeg behandlet en 12 år gammel palestinsk gutt i Beirut i 1982. Han het Tariq, og hadde fått hele familien, slekt og venner utryddet av Israels krigsmaskin. Etter flere operasjoner berget jeg den hardt skadde armen hans, men han var så deprimert at han verken kunne snakke eller spise. Han holdt på å dø av fortvilelse, helt til jeg sa at han kunne skyte med den andre hånda. Da bestemte han seg for å leve og for å bli det Bush kaller terrorist. Har vi rett til å kreve at alle Tariqer skal ligge og dø? spør Hans Husum.”
Translated: “- I treated a12 year old Palestinian boy in Beirut in 1982. His name was Tariq, and his whole family and all his friends had been exterminated by the Israeli war machine. After several surgeries I managed to save his injured arm, but he was so depressed that he could not speak nor eat. He was dying of despair/grief until I told him that he could shoot/fire arms with the other hand. That’s when he decided to live and become what Bush calles a terrorist. Do we have the right to demand that all Tariq’s shall lye and die? Asks Hans Husum.
.no; My 2 c… What if the good Doctor said; “you can live to help and aid other people with the other hand…
So the answer to som of the comments above, What about the Norwegians?... Yes many of us know them, the vast majority of Norwegians do not. The Norwegian broadcasters aired everything Gilbert and Fosse could send, in all programs at all times without telling the Norwegian public about their background. The chatrooms and discussion rooms are full with threads/questions like. How did they get in through Egypt? How could they have had such perfect timing? Why is there only civilians sent to Shilfa? Etc etc…
I guess, as the Norwegians go, we wonder, like the rest of you, how is this going to end.
Best regards, and again, parden my english.
.no
Footnote: Yesterday 08.01.09. a pro Israeli demo outside the Norwegian Parliament supported Israel’s, Norway’s probably also UK’s rights as states to defend themselves against foreign or domestic aggression and attacks whether it was done by terrorist, enemy nations or whatever. The 50 or so demonstrators where heavily protected by police because of all death threats they had received. The counter demonstrators, Pro Palestinians turned up in around a 1000. They threw bottles and fireworks over the police and barriers into the Pro Israeli group. Afterwards they fought with the Police and vandalized Oslo city centre… But the images spoke a thousand words! Pro Israeli in front of the parliament, quiet, legal, playing by rules. Protected by the police on 3 sides. Surrounded by 1000 Pro Palestinians on 3 sides. Rockets thrown over the fences, over the police, to land and explode in-between the demonstration that demonstrates for the right for any state to defend itself against aggression. Where have I seen this before…

john

You may be interested to know the following:
I am certain that BBC 5Live Messageboards do not allow links to your pages.
A post was removed today that linked to your site.
I shall do a test posting to check this and report back.
Many obscure sites and blogs remain up.
If this bias is true then it is clearly wrong.
Overall,I find them reasonably balanced in their modding,but:
I had a post removed today which referred to Hamas as "genocidal fascists".
Yet posts refer which refer to the Jews being like Nazis,Gaza being a Warsaw ghetto,a "Holocaust occurring in Gaza,remain up.
You may like to investigate this yourself.
I am just bringing it to your attention.
Best wishes.

Instamatic

I understand the questions about the press using a left wing doctor from Norway

"He is a political activist and member of the Norwegian Maoist ‘Red’ party. "

- Yes he is a member of the Red Party, a new political party which is a kind of co-operation of small far-left parties, but it's utter nonsens to say its a Maoist party. Maybe some of the members are Maoists, but it's mainly a semi-marxist party turning more to socialism than communism. The party has been through a reform the last 5 yrs.

"Gilbert and Fosse could send, in all programs at all times without telling the Norwegian public about their background"

- I think Ive heard 10 times on TV that Gilberg is a member of the party Rødt "Red", which is known as a dark red party. It's not a maoist party though. The writer of this article dont have a clue about it. Gilbert is a marxist. I do not support them by the way.

"Gilbert supports terror and terrorism as a legitimate method of achieving your goals."

He does not support terror in general, but it's a bit like being a black metal fan. Most of them do not support to put churches on fire, but the european church has done so many awful things without being punished the last 700 years that they "deserve it anyway". A weird example, I know, but it's a thought lots of people are thinking. I dont support terrorism by the way, but every single (at least almost) political theory shows that if u put 1,5 million people in a "camp" which is about the size of my hometown with 4000 inhabitants, then it all goes wrong.

The so called pro-palestinans "attacking the police" in Oslo were a bunch of pro-palestinians, lots of frustrated immigrants, plenty from Blitz (anti-police anarchist movement in Oslo) and football casuals (!) and non-educated youths (youngest one 13 yrs old, caught by the police). A TV-channel reported to have seen about 30 football hooligans ready to fight anyone. There was by the way a quiet and MUCH bigger pro-palestina demonstration 30 mins later in Oslo with approx 5 - 10 000 supporters.

The pro-Israel supporters were listening to a speech from the most beloved and most hated politician in Norway, the anti-immigrant/anti-tax party leader Siv Jensen. The party is just as much (or more) to the right than what Red party is to the left. She and the rest of the party is well known for not liking arab people and black people and her speech was an extreme anti-arab speech. She has pissed of quite many norwegians too because she said that "Gilbert is a member of the Red party and can therefore not be trusted", which is an ultra non-democratic comment. Her party, FRP, is a strange party, because they are supported by anti-immigrant supporters, those who wants cheap booze, pro-Israel supporters and even some "brown" elements in Norway.

The Pro-Israel supporters were mostly quiet and legal, but some of them were provocating the "mob" cause they were shouting and giving the finger.

But, that said, I do not support violence from so called pro-palestina youngsters at all. Its ridiculous.

Mads Gilbert is a hero in Norway. Not because he is a member of the Red party (which most norwegian knows after watching the guy on tv a couple of times or more), but because he risks his own life to save lives. Maybe he supports Hamas (a legally elected "party" and not the Israeli government), but he prefers Fatah. He supports Hamas because Israel is even worse. He still was a great insider in Gaza. I don't know what you prefer.. a norwegian doctor inside Gaza, an illegal american plumber (Joe the plumber) reporting for an ultra-conservative outside Gaza or the ultra-conservative christian press in Norway reporting from Jerusalem.

I dont really know where u get all your "facts" from.

You choose what to believe, I believe in a left wing doctor who is right where things are boiling and I believe extreme religious papers such as Norge I Dag and DagenMagazinet, both Christians, are making up things to make Israel look better. I can't prove it, and you can't prove it wrong.

Stu

If the mad doctor condones attacts against the USA in the form of the Sept 11th attacks as retribution for supposed acts of violence committed by the USA on them, then why should he have a problem if Israel responds to acts of violence (thousands of rockets over the last several years) commited against them?

I think the doctor's bigotry and hypocracy is shining brightly!

Fred Max Leopold

Do you bloggers ever pause to reflect how fortunate you are to be able to express your opinios so freely?
Try doing this in Gaza if you are not a Hamas supporter!!
You would be taking a short flight off the 6th story of the nearest apartment building.
Call THAT Democracy ?
No, it demockery.
Those who so glibly condemn Israel's response to 8 years of rockets and over 60 years of venemous hatred should take a vacation in Sderot for a few weeks.
And while you are there, take a look at the schoolbooks used to educate young Palestinians.
Then talk to me about proportionality !!

Jon Grunewald

As usual, Melanie does her very best to play down the huge death toll (and much greater toll of serious injuries) among innocent civilians in Gaza. She does this by saying that it is partly the fault of Hamas (not relevant - Israel must take responsibility for its own actions) and that some of the witnesses are biased (so would most of us be, if we worked out there trying to save the shattered bodies of injured children). I wish Melanie could be sent to Gaza as The Spectator's frontline reporter before she offers her opinions masquerading as her own thoughts rather than the carefully crafted offerings of Israel's "Ministry of Truth". Please, even if Hamas are the most evil organisation on earth it does not justify the death of innocent civilians. Israel has admitted that Hamas's rockets and supporters are huge in number and this invasion has not yet dented Hamas. Surely it is time for Israel to heed the condemnation of the international community before further harm is done to Israel and to the safety of all jews.

Mark Urban

In screaming 'spin' in this instance, the Kettle calling the pot black doesn't cover it. That you choose to resort to a (quite easily exposed lie, that) wikipedia entry as evidence of Hamas-controlled media is rich, but you do reach your nodding supporters, which only shows that people only ever see things as they are predisposed to.

But I have to say it, you are a coward for making Dr. Gilbert your target.