Believe it

Louise

Melanie, this underlines all the more urgently the need for some kind of high-level initiative, backed by MPs, to compel the BBC - by legal means since moral persuasion so lamentably fails - to abide by its Charter and report with scrupulous fairness on the Conflict. I know that the BBC successfully resisted legal pressure to release the Balen Report and that it may not be easy. But we stare into the Abyss. Something simply has to be done.

Andy

Sad but true.

Also, the link to the first video has an extra character "." at the end in the URL.

MathewP

Melanie, I have to say I find your comments over the past week distasteful, inhumane and hysterical. Virtually the entire world population rejects your myopic fantasy world where there is no occupation, no illegal wall, no illegal settlements, no assassinations and no constant military threat from Israel. Please open your eyes, your mind and your heart to the extraorinary suffering of innocent Palestinians who literally have nowhere to flee to.

Dee Ranged

Vote Melanie's Blog as the best.

Go here http://2008.weblogawards.org/polls/best-uk-blog/

Stephen Rothbart

Today it was reported that Danish schools were refusing to take on Jewish children because of this war. Soon other Europeans will follow.

It is a MUST that all those that value freedom and tolerance, pass on this information to everyone they can.

The Press, BBC, CNN and SKY which are all we can get here in Prague are hopelessly one sided, barraging their screens with pictures of wounded children on an almost non-stop loop, and without explanation of these pernicious Hamas tactics.

The internet is now our only hope to reach public opinion.

Take a leaf from Obama, and get the message out. Circulate Melanie's article to everyone you know, and not just those you think support Israel, but also those you know probably don't.

Sharon

I have just contacted my local Conservative MP regarding the BBC and press bias and questioned why these attacks on Jewish people are going unreported. I was told that I enjoyed freedom of speech (!) in this country and if I could substantiate my claims, I should approach the BBC and press directly. I had the distinct impression that he could not be bothered and was rather annoyed by my phone call.

Stephen Plosker

One thing that seems to have been ignored by Melanie Phillips ( although I havent read all of her output so I could well be wrong) and the media is that between June 19 & 4 November 2008 only 20 rockets and 18 mortars were fired from Gaza and most if not all those were in contravention of Hamas orders. If you dont believe me please look at the the Israeli Intelligenc website - terrorism-info.org.il. The lull in the fighting ended when Israel killed 6 Gazans - they claim because they were planning an abduction of an Israeli soldier (I suspect the Palestinains will say different). So it is clear that Hamas are capable of observing a ceasefire. Many people seem to have the impression that missiles have been raining down non-stop on Israel from Gaza during 2008 which is not the case. Both sides didnt try hard enough after November 4th to try and extend the ceasefire. There is no black or white but to place the blame entirely on Hamas is unfair. Whoever is to blame the current Israeli action will only make things worse for Israelis and wont stop the rockets. So what is the point of the current military action?

Wyn

MatthewP: a classic case of inverted logic, dangerous in the extreme because so many people who should understand, do not and are not aware of what is in the offing. Think about the broader picture here, please.

Nasif

MathewP : I am sure you are a well-meaning person, but you are also brainwashed. Your post is just a rehashing of UNTRUE negative propoganda.

Jacqueline

Melanie, This morning I have heard on BBC News harsh criticism of the Israeli shelling of the school, no mention of Hamas firing from near there or secondary explosions.I heard criticism of Israeli soldiers firing on civilians after directing them to a house and not allowing the Red Cross access. This was not verified as absolutely fact by a Red Cross worker interviewed separately from the main news, she said the information had been given by unknown sources,which was suspicious but the BBC presented this as an outrage and a fact. Then I saw Sir Jeremy Greenstock in an interview desribing the wrongs suffered by Hamas. (The Hamas are not terrorists) his words. Last night on BBC News, beleagured Israeli spokesman Mark Regev was harrassed in a most aggressive way by a reporter and the Israeli government was virtually accused of crimes against humanity. Can anyone suggest why this is happening? Do Jews have any future in Britain?

Sharon

I have just contacted my local Conservative MP regarding the BBC and press bias and questioned why these attacks on Jewish people are going unreported. I was told that I enjoyed freedom of speech (!) in this country and if I could substantiate my claims, I should approach the BBC and press directly. I had the distinct impression that he could not be bothered and was rather annoyed by my phone call.

Graeme Thompson

Louise
January 9th, 2009 11:37am

Louise, the only way standards will be restored to the BBC is a wholesale purging of the subversives who have infiltrated it, both in front of the cameras and behind them, in front of the mikes and behind them. The BBC is riven with subversives serving our enemy at time of war. Sorry to say, I can't see it getting better. Our democracy is crumbling before our eyes.

Jacqueline

MatthewP is typically a product of anti Israel mass hysteria as a result of media one sidedness. The MatthewP's of this world rarely know the true facts and history of this situation and have usually never been to the area. They sadly rely on the media getting it right hence my last comment.

Winston Smith

MathewP,

Are you for real? Really, are you seriously for real?
"Nowhere to flee"????
Have you looked at a Geography Map lately? Do you not know that Israel and Palestine are dead in the Center of Islamic Countries?
What's more Palestinians could quite happily stay in their own homes and even better live in Israel, in harmony with the Jewish people under a proper, far democratic system. However, instead they choose to elect in a terrorist organisation - Hamas, that sends over suicide bombers and rockets daily.
I think it is you who lives in the fantasy world.
I also suggest that you look at this video : http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/

You will actually be surprised in what you find. I also suggest as well you find a new source of information instead of, no doubt, the usual left wing propaganda, found in such papers as the Guardian, Observer, Independent and lately the Daily Telegraph. Oh stop watching the BBC too.
What amazes me is that people like you are actually suckered into believing the left wing drivel! Oh by the way, I'd also stay away from Robert Fisk too!

wongiranger

to MathewP: yes the innocent Palestinians are suffering extraordinarily - my eyes are opened to how this was brought about by Hamas and exploited by their sympathisers. At least Israel acts to mitigate the suffering of her citizens by keeping out terrorists with the wall, and eliminating the terror masters. Palestinian rejectionism strengthens the immoral continuance of the settlements and necessitates Israeli military preparedness

David S

MatthewP - I think you have that slightly wrong.

Over the past few weeks (or even years) the world has turned its back on Israeli citizens who have had to face the realities of living next to Hamas ran Gaza - whilst you might ignore 3000 plus rockets last year, the men women and children of Sderot, Ashkelon, Neviot, Ashdod, Be'er Sheba and countless other communities have not.

Whilst the world sees fit to pander to Iranian stooges in Hamas and Hizbollah, Israel concerns itself with protecting its citizens.

A hard fact for you to grasp - but enough is enough; let this be a lesson to hamas and its string pullers, come for us, you are the only ones who will suffer.

Dominic L-R

MathewP - I note that you do not actually refute any of the claims made by Melanie Phillips about Hamas's actions and intentions. Do you deny this? If so, please give us some evidence (eg quotes from Hamas) that show Melanie's statements on Hamas to be wrong.
Yes, indeed there is a "constant military threat from Israel". And why is that, do you suppose? Could it be anything to do with the fact that Hamas are , in their own words, dedicated to destroying Israel and murdering every Jew.
It is not Melanie Phillips who is "distasteful, inhumane and hysterical". It is Hamas.

CS

Matthew P.
Ask yourself why they are suffering? For goodness sake wake-up. It's so clear their suffering is purely the fault of Hamas and other Islamists. That's not hysterical. It's rational.
Why on earth would Israel want a war with Gaza? What could their mottive possibly be? Yes, we hear this clap trap about it helping gain votes at the elections. Or even that Israel want secret oil in Gaza. Get real!
When will you open your eyes, mind and heart and see that Israel are fighting an enemy that simply doesn't care for innocent civilians. How can you not understand that?
I think this all something you either get or you don't. You either get the fact that they are engaging in Jihad, nad seek the destruction of Israel, the Jews and the west, or you don't. Instead you think that compromise, appeasement and a mutual tolerance can win through. Think again.

CS

Matthew P.
Ask yourself why they are suffering? For goodness sake wake-up. It's so clear their suffering is purely the fault of Hamas and other Islamists. That's not hysterical. It's rational.
Why on earth would Israel want a war with Gaza? What could their mottive possibly be? Yes, we hear this clap trap about it helping gain votes at the elections. Or even that Israel want secret oil in Gaza. Get real!
When will you open your eyes, mind and heart and see that Israel are fighting an enemy that simply doesn't care for innocent civilians. How can you not understand that?
I think this all something you either get or you don't. You either get the fact that they are engaging in Jihad, nad seek the destruction of Israel, the Jews and the west, or you don't. Instead you think that compromise, appeasement and a mutual tolerance can win through. Think again.

andy c

Louise.

If the BBC offends you, try Fox.

I think you ll be happier in their little hole than you appear to be in the bright light of day.

Graeme Thompson

Louise
January 9th, 2009 11:37am

Louise, the only way standards will be restored to the BBC is a wholesale purging of the subversives who have infiltrated it, both in front of the cameras and behind them, in front of the mikes and behind them. The BBC is riven with subversives serving our enemy at time of war. Sorry to say, I can't see it getting better. Our democracy is crumbling before our eyes.

dominic

Matthew, you don't speak for the entire world. What a combination of arrogance and ignorance! You actually just speak for a post modern liberalist minority that have lost all sense of history and the ability to distinguish right from wrong. The peoples of Sudan, Mauritania, the Philippines, Spice Islands, Mumbai, Nigeria and yes Israel know a jihad when the see one. It's a great pity that you don't. Read about the Arab and Ottoman jihads that islamised huge swathes of the world. Weep now because the third great jihad started around 9/11 and Israel won't be the only democratic pluralistic state in the front line for much longer. Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda and their various proxies don't give a fig about human rights or nation states, Palestinian or otherwise. Just turning Dar al Harub into Dar al Islam. By any means necessary.

dominic

Melanie you are truly a beacon of light amid the encircling gloom.

andy c

Dee Ranged - you sure are!

patricia

Stephen.

An even better way to stop TV stations from showing pictures of wounded Palestinian children, is to stop wounding them.

Mike

MathewP: It is virtually impossible for some people to change their mindset because they have an extreme identification with Israel, emotionally, culturally and religiously. Some would say its a sort of tribalistic blindness. This means it probably never occurs to them to give any thought to what the other side have suffered for the last 4 decades.....some would say for the last 60 years.
Of course there are many, many people who generally identify with Israel but who don't continuously side with it, who don't see everything from its perspective and justify whatever it does. These brave people are generally referred to as Israel-haters, Jew-haters, revisionists, or if one is a non-Jew....an anti-Semite.

Daibhidh MacAdhaimh

SHARON:
Your MP's lethargic response typifies the spineless and vaccuously principled attitude of today's political class that lacks the stomach to stand up for truth and liberty. His conscience has been seered and captured by the moral inversion that has steadily been imputed to this country over the past few decades by slavish, nihilistic adepts of the degenerate, socially and intellectually destructive Frankfurt school of thought.

Gil

MathewP, your comments are absolutely infantile and are very counter-productive. You have no idea what 'virtually the entire world' thinks unless it's your febrile imagination causing you to see and hear things. The military threat has been against Israel from before and since its birth in 1948. The wall was put in place to stop homicide bombers.

Funny, most of the world didn't have much to say about the massacre of defenceless Jews in Mumbai or Russian atrocities in Georgia. So when your fellow travellers' aim is to negate the existence of Israel per se and using the Holocaust as a club with which to beat Israel then I'm with the Israeli government 100% of the way even though I am critical of many aspects of its policies.

RUTH

Jacqueline, most Jews in Britain agree with everybody else from all from other religions that what Israel is doing is wrong.

If not far far worse.

I know of one Jewish friend in London who has taken to wearing a Christian Cross, so as not to be mistaken for a supporter of Kadmia / Likud etc.

Gil

Mike, many in Israel and abroad did give thought to what the occupation was doing to Israel. And where did it get them/us? Arafat who was more interested in perpetual struggle then doing something for his own people. He was offered a fantastic deal at Camp David but the terrorist leader couldn't adjust to the new era of reconciliation.

When a mass movement of Islamists and Lefties in the UK call for the destruction of Israel and allow antisemitism in their ranks inc. inverting the lessons of the Holocaust for their own purposes, then there can be no dialogue with you and your 'tribe'.

Dave M

MathewP, war is always a terrible situation. Ask yourself how many German civilians died in WW2 when the allies and Russia fought to prevent Hitler carrying out his wishes to conquer and enslave Europe. How many German women, indeed, were actually raped in Berlin during the fighting? Have the Israelis raped any Palestinian women? Of course, not. How about Japan with Hiroshima and Nagasaki? There, thousands and thousands of civilians, women and children were caught up in war. So, war is really a nasty situation no matter who is fighting. It's clear there is terrible suffering amongst Palestinian civilians but the fact must be faced, Hamas is using these people for propaganda purposes. Israel does not seek to target these people but, at the same time, is forced to fight in a highly populated enclave. However the case may be, if Israel can weaken Hamas or come close to knocking it out, it would be nice to see genuine international involvement in the region. Peacekeeping forces should be allowed in to prevent any more rocket fire and also to help the Palestinian people find a new direction and abandon terror.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Yes, many people think the same this extremist is like a cult who believe to hate, it is not all the Muslims thank God but this Islamic jihads are, they teach their children when they are little to hate first their neighbors and after that they teach to hate others who are not Muslims like the west, I think the first thing for civilize people in the world to do is to teach this people moderation, and to encourage good Muslims to reject this people who are nothing but trouble makers, they need to be name it and shame it by their own people, like the guys you mentioned above, they should show the world that Hamas is just terrorists cult

RUTH

Gil - Sincerely, I pity the values of anyone who is "100% behind the Israeli Government" right now.

With your unflinching and unquestionning support for an ongoing massacre, the damage you and YOUR tribe are doing to Israel's standing across the world right now is immeasurable.

I really hope no objective viewer of this sorry State of affairs should stumble across Melanie Phillips' blog.

Because she and some of her disciples could not engender a more horrible impression, or act more destructively, against the interests of our country.

Carl

The Israeli Army herded over 100 Palestinians into a building, ordered them not to leave and then, 24 hours later they shelled it, killing many. This type of brutality will probably be put down as a mistake and we will hear the normal whines about not wanting to target civilians. Israel does not deserve peace whilst it continues to slaughter in this way.

Straydingo

My experience shows me that people like MathewP are incapable of formulating a clear and factually based argument and therefore create no value in discussing and exploring alternative views.

They are mere clones seeking comfort in mindlessly being blown along by the winds of trendy politics.

Gil

Ruth, it was Mike who first alluded to the word 'tribe' I guess your use of it is far more sinister. And as for your use of the word 'disciples' as well as your story about the Cross wearing Jew speaks volumes about you. Christians know too well about the threat to their religion from Islamists.

Adam S

Guys time is running out to vote on the 2008 blog awards:

http://2008.weblogawards.org/polls/best-uk-blog/

Remember you can vote every 24hrs, Melaine's blog is out in front but only just with the 'Made in Birmingham' blog running a concerted campaign to win. Now i have nothing against Birmingham, or creatrive types, but lets bring it on home for Melaine and show our support for her great work, remember you can vote every 24hrs!

http://2008.weblogawards.org/polls/best-uk-blog/

GRUMPY the GOLANI

Patricia - oh there you are.
For a moment, I thought maybe you might be on a little cabin cruiser, you know, hauling '500 tones'of emergency supplies, between cyprus and gaza, along with clare, tony's nutter sister in law - the usual flotsam.

now I see your back.
Rewind the tape, girlie.

'an even better way to stop tv stations from showing pictures of wounded palistinian children' is for hamas to stop firing missiles into Israel in the first instance and to desist from hiding behind whatever poor palistinian can be dragooned into supplying cover.

So you see, its just a case of getting the sequence correct.
And of course having the cerebral capacity to make these sort of fine distinctions.

David S

Ruth

The fact that you feel that one can not support a nation from protecting its citizens is one thing - but to claim that:-

"the damage you and YOUR tribe are doing to Israel's standing across the world right now is immeasurable."

is laughable - who are you kidding, situations like this are entirely what gets people like you off - Jews being attacked, betcha love it right!

Not so nice though when we fight back is it?

andy c

Phillips and Co. say Hamas' methods are a latter day iteration of Herod's version of childcare.

They point to Hamas extremism, terrorism, teachings and hatred of Israel, and by extention the West, as justifications for this invasion.

But when others suggest that PART OF the justification for Hamas' actions might be found in Israeli blockades, embargoes, checkpoints, repression, bombings, assassinations, settlements and the Wall, Phillips and Co. have nothing to say argument, choosing instead to maintain their refrain.

And if the BBC, Amnesty or the UN criticises Israel, Philips and Co. fill the blog with cries of anti semitism and foul play.

It really is not for nothing that Phillips and Co. sit in the backwaters of the blogosphere, because their lack of common sense, logic, the laws of action and reaction or appreciation of other people's points of view, seem completely and willfully to escape them.

phil

MathewP-I for one appreciate your concern and I assume compassion ,but I doubt you know the history of this area .There was no thought for the emerging state of Israel in 1948 just an immediate war and bombing of Tel Aviv on the day the state was born and a cry for the Med to be filled with the blood of the Jews -it has never ceased ,war after war -all started by the ARABS/PĀLESTINIANS.do you wonder when the Israelis say enough is enough

-I hate the killing on both sides .I care for the innocents and it could all be stopped if the Palestinians would come to the peace table and say we will reject the call for death to all Jews .Israel started life with a wish "to be a light unto nations " and now its citizens are becoming hardened to the facts of life in this tragic area -I blame that hardness entirely on the Arabs -We Jews have always been "softies"-do you know any?- hope you will look deeper into this tragedy ,we all deserve that .

Trent

RUTH, you do not know what what British Jews think (in fact your post PROVES it) so pls. do not speak on behalf of anyone but yourself. And then, in the interests of a saner world, don't bother.

LaurenceF

Carl: Please let us know, using non-Palestinian sources, where you got a preposterous story about Israel bombing a building after herding Palestinians into it. This reminds me of the Palestinian claims of massacres of between 500 and 1000 in Jenin in 2004. These 'massacres' turned out to be 52 people of which 26 were combatants. Considering the fact that prior to the Gaza conflict Israel sent automated phone messages to individuals in areas where bombing was likely warning them to flee or seek shelter, I think we can safely add your story to the long list of Palestinian lies about Israel's slaughters and ethnic cleansing. Goebbels oft quoted "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it" has never seemed more apt and more dangerous than right now.

Pierce

Andy C. You completely miss the point. HAMAS are evil terrorists, Israel is defending itself.

BBC, Guardian, Oxfam, UNRWA, ICRC, etc, by accepting and disseminating HAMAS propaganda blindly and uncritically, are acting as its mouthpiece.

HAMAS could not wish for better dupes which amplify the consequences of its terrorism.

phil

Mathew P i wrote to you without scrolling down and I see that so many have told you in so many different ways what they think.including the totally deluded Mike whom I have corresponded with for years -he wears blinkers round not only his eyes but his ears too,but at least I think he means well (,sadly gets his cut and paste from fisk,a man who refers to us as nazis ),on the other side of the equation is the mellifluous andy c and the unspeakable patricia who have been here for so long stinking this column out -Whilst people like that are spreading poison about there is less and less chance of the sensible and caring ones to make progress --sorry for sending two messages

Tolberone

Required reading

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/4207857/Britains-Muslims-should-condemn-Hamas-not-Israel.html

Carl

LaurenceF: You can find this "preposterous story" in the Times and many other leading news sites.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5482850.ece

An American

Ruth,
Come on...don't hold it back...tell us what you really think.

AFS

You've got it right, David S, the world really does hate it when Jews fight back. They prefer it when Jews meekly submit to gas chambers; can't stand it when they fight back -- as they are doing with all the integrity and compassion that is humanly (and humanely) possible in the circumstances. In this blog alone you have individuals like Ruth and patricia (and the others but I don't have the appetite for scrolling up to find their "names"), faces no doubt contorted with hatred, siding not with the victims of 60 years of harrassment in the mid-east (i.e., the Israelis) but, perversely, the perpetrators. The loss of civilian lives in Gaza is indeed a tragedy, but the murderers of these innocents are Hamas, not the IDF.

Gen

Carl, wish I had a penny for every biased & untuthful report published in "the Times and many other leading news sites"

Straydingo

Carl,

I think you will find that the Times and the other "Leading" news sites are all drawing their information from Hamas controlled Palestinian sources as their are no Western representatives from the Media (unless with the IDF) or Aid agencies in Gaza....all news coming out of Gaza is therefore being vetted and controlled by Hamas...so if you trust a terrorist organisation for accuracy in its reporting on events happening on the ground then you may as well not post here any more.

Ordnance

Its pointless trying to get the BBC to reform as its rotten to the core. Here's a solution – reduce the License free by 50% and transfer it to PAYE so that the unemployed, students and the elderly wouldn't pay anything. The BBC would get 1 Billion Pounds annually for public service broadcasting, with another £Billion going to support quality programming on ITV, CH4, and C5.

david

Lets not even bother trying to get the BBC to be fair...lets go the root and get rid of the license fee.

phil

An American nice to see your style as a blogger is developing ,started very serious and now your personality is coming out -GREAT ,but I dont think ruth will become your friend:)

Mischa

I am saddened by this text and what it conveys - a distorted view of reality - but more than anything, what worries me is the motivation behind it.
I would like to remind you that a group of 27 Israeli fighter pilots declared in 2003:
"We, veteran and active pilots alike, who served and still serve the state of Israel for long weeks every year, are opposed to carrying out attack orders that are illegal and immoral of the type the state of Israel has been conducting in the territories. We, who were raised to love the state of Israel and contribute to the Zionist enterprise, refuse to take part in Air Force attacks on civilian population centers. We, for whom the Israel Defense Forces and the Air Force are an inalienable part of ourselves, refuse to continue to harm innocent civilians. These actions are illegal and immoral, and are a direct result of the ongoing occupation which is corrupting all of Israeli society. Perpetuation of the occupation is fatally harming the security of the state of Israel and its moral strength".
Or, as Gilad Atzmon put it a few days ago:
"It is not Judaism per se that directly transforms Israeli politicians and military leaders into war criminals".
Sorry to see you go down the extremist path Ms. Phillips - I used to enjoy your writing.

LaurenceF

Carl: And so was the Jenin "massacre", which at the time the UN claimed over 400 civilians had been killed, and that Israel had prepared mass graves. Wait till the full story comes out. If Israel really goes out to "slaughter" people like you suggest, then they must be have utterly crap fighting force - after all Syria managed to kill up to 38,000 in one day in 1982. Israel does more than any other army in the world to try and avoid civilian casualties - it's not perfect, but it also doesn't try to "slaughter" people either. Hamas on the other hand.......

Wyn

And all the while this goes on, Iran happily enriches Uranium....

Phlebum

Wyn -- precisely! I was wondering when someone was going to make the connection.

Nicole S

The link to the video is not working.

Louise

Andy C, like the Guardian or the Telegraph or any privately-owned media outlet, Fox News is under no obligation, save its own conscience, to report fairly on the Conflict or upon any other issue. Moreover, it can please itself what editorial line it takes - right,left, or centre. Unlike the BBC it is not state-sponsored and receives no licence fee; it is not bound to objectivity by a Charter that in return for a pledge of objectivity gives it its increasingly anomalistic and untenably privileged position (in this era of multi-channel broadcasting)of being featherbedded by what is in effect a poll tax on every household in Britain with a television set.
What pro-Israeli critics of the BBC (and they are legion) wish to see is not a pro-Israeli partisan line from the BBC, merely a cessation of its anti-Israeli partisan line. That means scrupulous fairness in reportage, and an end to editorialising by reporters, commentators and studio anchors, whether by word, tone, look, or gesture.
Graeme, I know the BBC News organisation reeks from top to bottom with militant leftists, but I still think there must be some in that organisation who are appalled by the partisan line taken by Bowen and his ilk. Some reporters seem to strive for fairness - I think Mike Sargent seems to be one of them, and although Katya Adler is on record as expressing admiration for Jeremy Bowen's journalistic style, she would appear to be another.
Margaret Thatcher should have privatised it while she had the chance. Let the BBC raise the revenue for its own propaganda.

jose garcia

"Lets not even bother trying to get the BBC to be fair...lets go the root and get rid of the license fee."

this is the only solution, talking is futile

jaine

Mischa. So what what those 27 pilots said, Israel has its 'lefties' too. Who are just as silly there as they are everywhere else, not seeing hte wood for the trees, but having good intentions and motives that do not work in this cruel world.

davo

the butchery that Hammas is conducting on its own people is totally ignored by the western press. Children are positioned outside buildings for Hammas use. They then pick them up like sack of pototoes to use as human shields to fire at the Israelis.Even the SS never did this. A wedding party who had the temerity to play music and sing is vicously gun downed by maurauding Hammas gunmen.
Palestinians are shot in the head in their hospital beds.
Such examples show how the Gazans are merely canon fodder for exploitation by the Hammas monsters who will stop at nothing to achieve their islamists aims.
This is the realty and yet all the BBC and the other pro hammas networks are doing is promting more oppression of the palestinian peoples

DJI

There is no balance to this article or the responses. The actions of Hamas are wrong and the Israeli response is wrong. You are either against violence or not. Arguing over the BBC is rather missing the point.

davo

and just to validate my comments about hammas, check out the video at youtube.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1M4eH9Kk7I

Tom Jones

the link is bad.

David S

Mischa - "Or, as Gilad Atzmon put it a few days ago:"

Gilad Atzmon, really, you're citing this man as a source to speak on behalf of Jews and Israelis - why not just quote Mahmoud Zahar, at least he's honest about his desire to rid the world of Jews.

Might I suggest you actually read up on Atzmon - a man who is so far removed from reality that only the SWP and PSC pay attention to him.

phil

I POST D THIS A WHILE BACK AND IT GOT LOST ,SO I think its worth another try ;)

TINA WILL YOU MARRY ME :)? i HAVE FOUND A SOUL MATE XXX --------and those who cannot understand bowen -its easy his coopers y-fronts are too small ,concentrates the brain into a very small area -you can tell by his voice .haw haw had the same problem he ordered the wrong size before the war. so its not really his fault .somebody send him some Calvin Klein and he will be lovely

aND BTW there is a very interesting if a trifle long post from a Norwegian about the crazy doctor on "the hamas broadcasting"thread,by-line .no at jan 9 1.53-its worth flicking right through it .very interesting

lehsen

Yes, the link is no longer working... can someone fix it?

Adam B.

Matthew P, it must be nice to be so impressed with oneself that you feel you are able to speak for most of the wrold's population. Perhaps a little humility?

Emmet Sweeney

Andy C, and others like you, who seem to derive your entire view of reality from the liberal-left media, can I ask you all a question: Was it Israel that caused the slaughter of 200,000 moderate Algerians by Islamist fanatics in the 1990s? Was it Israel that caused the Islamist regime in Sudan to slaughter around 2,000,000 Christians and animists in the south of the country? Was it Israel that caused Isamists to murder up to 70,000 Hindus in Kashmir since the mid-90s? Was it Israel that provoked the slaughter of Buddhists by Muslim extremists in Thailand, which is now ongoing? Was it Israel that caused the Beslan massacre, the Mumbai bombings, and quite literally tens of thousands of deadly attacks by Islamists all over the globe since 9/11? When are you people going to waken up? Stop swallowing the crap the BBC and their lefty fellow-travellers are peddling. It'll end up getting you killed.

Dixon

andy C et al, have you ever looked at a map of Israel. Gaza has a coast for iuts entire length plus a border with Egypt. Israel closing its borders to Qaza no more constitutes a siege than Britain closing its borders would be a "blockade" of mainland Europe. Its idiotic.

Dixon

DJI
January 9th, 2009 6:00pm
" There is no balance to this article or the responses. The actions of Hamas are wrong and the Israeli response is wrong. You are either against violence or not. Arguing over the BBC is rather missing the point."

Another kind soul who just doesnt GEDDIT! The point is..I for one and almost every person I know personally...are NOT against violence, we are against those who would destroy our freedoms or, indeed kill us...and we are disgusted that the BBC does their propoganda work for them.

Dixon

Isreal's actions today are one of the few news items that actually give me hope that there is at least one Western nation that actually does "geddit".

That the US abstained from the UN vote is the next best thing.

That Obama has refused to condemn Israel ( so far ) is even more reason for hope.

Various trolls posting comments attacking Israel here are just the naying of sheep that are part of the noise and irritation of life in our lovely "democracy" today.

Mischa

David S and Jaine:
I know very well who Atzmon is, a decent human being and a wonderful artist. As for the pilots refusing to commit crimes against humanity, they are also decent Jews.
Rabbi Michael Lerner says the best way to “destroy Hamas” is for Israel to “rebuild Gaza and the West Bank with a massive Marshall Plan type enterprise—adopt our Strategy of Generosity and renounce the strategy of domination.”
Is he also 'far removed from reality'?
Israel’s military operation in Gaza is aimed primarily at forcing Hamas to end its rocket barrages and military build-up. But it has another goal as well: to expunge the ghost of its flawed 2006 war against Hezbollah in Lebanon and re-establish Israeli deterrence. At any cost.
That is a sick reality.

Dixon

Heres something else its hard to believe. Theres a programme on Ch4 nas I write about the "tightest person in the UK". By which they mean, financially prudent. TWhat for the backing track...klezmer, the stereotypically "Jewish" music!

So what are they implying? Is THAT not racist?

HarleyDavidson

Patricia darling, MatherP, MIscha

1. The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.

2. Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by Microsoft-Israel.

3. The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel. Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely designed, developed, and produced in Israel.

4. The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel.

Now, I realize you all have a genuine hate thing about the evil Israelis so in a effort to give you all the means to strike back at these Godless savages, out of the kindness of my heart I might add.

I'll wait here quietly while you all destroy those Jew computers and cell phones. You wouldn't want these sorts of things in your homes, would you? Might I suggest you replace said devices with Arabic made models?

But how do we stop the war, you might ask? Simple. How about the Palestinians and Hamas asking for a peace treaty? It worked for Jordon and Egypt and each got back all their land. Unfortunately, that's the only thing Palestinians and Hamas and their sympathizers have NOT tried nor asked for.

I wonder why?

davo

One of the most appalling aspects of the news coverage of this conflict by the BBC especially is the cover-up of Hammas’ true nature.

its obvious that the BBC primary aim is to sanitize Hammas to such an extent that it is viewed as a force of "liberation" of the Palestinian people with albeit some mildly islamist views which can be acceptable owing to the 'brutality' of the Israelis. Such sanitization will obviously work wonders amongst the hordes of blinkered viewers it indoctrinates daily.
That is why the evil murderous nature of Hammas must be continually exposed.And exposed in relation to how they prey on their own people rather than on Israel.

Straydingo

Mischa,
The problem with your post is that in any defence force around the global you will find individuals speaking out in respect to wars they maybe be asked to fight in.

Now if your post was saying that a SIGNIFICANT majority of present day Israeli pilots were refusing to execute their missions then that would be worth noting. However, this is not even close to being the case.

Again I ask those of you that oppose this war to provide some hard alternatives that have yet been tried by Israel in seeking the peace we all want to see.
On nearly every one of MP Blog entries one us that supports Israel current position asks this question and all we get in response are "Make Love Not War" statements designed to make those espousing these words feel morally superior.

Un:dhimmi

I read an article in one of the free Tube tat rags on the way home tonight. It seems that the Met are 'concerned' about the potential for violence over the weekend as demonstrators once again descend on London by the Socialist Worker coachload, in order to throw shoes at the Israeli Embassy.

the British Board of Deputies are holding a (no doubt small by comparison) counter-demo on Sunday in Trafalgar Square.

Hmmm... I wonder which rally they're really worried will get violent?

Answers on a postcard.

davo

Emmet
you left out Black September which is very relevant to the current issue.

logdon

Nasif
January 9th, 2009 12:50pm
MathewP : I am sure you are a well-meaning person, but you are also brainwashed. Your post is just a rehashing of UNTRUE negative propoganda.

Nasif, I don't know whether you are British but your forename suggests that you are Muslim. The absence of any follow up to your comment, the first response as it happens to the ludicrous Matthew P is quite oddly rude and I feel that it should be put right. If more of your co-religionists would take your stand I'm sure that the purblind lefties who inhabit these pages and others would think twice before spouting their kneejerk bilge. You deserve full approval for your stance which quite bravely busts the stereotype. I raise my glass to you.

Shlomo

Anyone watched that abominably inappropriate show Diary of AF on, of all channels, the BBC? The cast have just been carted off to do some real honest work. Good riddance!

Michael B

MatthewP's tragi-comic arrogation. Hilarious. Pathetic. Infantile. Not content with having an opinion - a boorishly infantile and malformed opinion, but an opinion nonetheless - he needs to arrogate "virtually the entire world population" to his cause, his sensibility. Reminiscent of a two-year old's sense of self and the world and naive beyond belief - and yet, it does not surprise since it's not at all untypical of commentaries variously proclaimed from the left, from left/Islamicist de facto alliances and from other political/ideological precincts as well. An unintended commentary on the psychologies and motivations in general of so many - who have "an opinion."

Dixon

Mischa
January 9th, 2009 7:43pm
David S and Jaine:
I know very well who Atzmon is, a decent human being and a wonderful artist. As for the pilots refusing to commit crimes against humanity, they are also decent Jews.
Rabbi Michael Lerner says the best way to “destroy Hamas” is for Israel to “rebuild Gaza and the West Bank with a massive Marshall Plan type enterprise—adopt our Strategy of Generosity and renounce the strategy of domination.”

Thje flaws in these points are several;
Firstly, the pilots, whoever they are, wrre only 27 in number! So, by definition, a tiny monority of their group.

Second: billions of reconstruction dollars and Euros have already been poured into Gaza. Hamas just uses the money to buy weapons, take expensive "conference" trips abroad and other purposes that its not intended for.

Thirdly, were Israel to try to build things in Gaza, the contracyors would all be targeted by Hamas as Israeli collaborators. Look at Afghanistan. Anyone who tries to do anything constructive is regarded by the Jihadis as "collaborators" and "legitimate targets".

MathewP

Michael B you may berate and ridicule, I refer you to Schopenhauer "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
I guess you're still in the first stage, your bile suggests you may be about to graduate to the second stage, and I won't hold my breath in anticipation of you ever evolving enough to reach the third stage...

Dixon

Thankfully, as Olmert pointed out, it's not the "entire world" that races to condemn Israel, China and India do not, for starters, and thats about half the population of the planet covered.

The nations that want to condemn Israel and endorse its enemies ( apart of course, from such enemies and their 3rd world friends themselves ) are almost exclusively those of "old Europe". Decadent and increasingly due for a rude awakening.

Then, its only the "elites" who engage in the Israel bashing. If a million turn out to protest against Israel, that means that about 200 plus million Europeans abstain. So the "everyone on earth" claim looks really quite stupid.

Again, I have quite a large circle of associates, none are Jewish to my knowlege, but they almost all support Israel simply because they recognise Islamist fascism when they see Hamas nutters ranting on television.

Lizzy

MatthewP find Melanie's recent *comments* "distasteful, inhumane and hysterical".

That's rich!

Not a word from MatthewP against the distasteful, inhumane and hysterical death cult that is Hamas!

What sort of rarefied consciousness do people like MatthewP have? One who thinks "virtually the entire world population", no less, agrees with him. Give us a break!

Lizzy

MatthewP, you are nowhere near the truth and quoting Schopenhauer doesn't get you there.

The good philosopher would find you very lazy for not exploring and scrutinising all the facts before you, such as the videos Melanie has provided as evidence. Come back when you have done your homework.

Leon Trimble

It's time for both sides to grow up. as usual, innocent citizens on both sides are the casualties. this has been going on for far too long. as far as i can see it will take a truly brave man from each sides to bring peace. it's probably a lot more more difficult than taking the lazy violent option, but long overdue.
ghandi said "an eye for an eye will send us all blind" and the pictures from both sides show this to be the truth.

floatingvoter

Although India and China have not condemned the war this doesn't mean alot. Both care very little for both Israel or Hamas or anybody else in the middle east unless they are trading partners. The Indian media however have damned the war.

Terry

Here is a poem from the American Thinker website, which, well, really sets you thinking.

Regarding chidren (a poem)
By Mimi Evans Winship

Some children are cherished,
Some used as shields.
These are the realities
Fanaticism yields.

Do we blame the defenders
Who fight for their young
And champion the militants
Who safeguard no one?

Let reason prevail
Put emotions aside.
In whom do the hopes
Of the children reside?

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/01/regarding_chidren_a_poem.html

A post on the United Numbskulls’ admonishment of Israel:
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/01/irrelevant_world_governing_bod.html

And this post covers much of what Ms Phillips has been talking about today in relation to violence against Jews, there’s material here on what‘s been going on in the UK and in Europe:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/01/europes_rampant_muslim_jewhatr.html

Straydingo

MatthewP,

Please read this article printed in the Times and written by someone with far deeper insight than you are anyone else blasting Israel could every imagine:

http://tinyurl.com/82fj3y

Please provide me with your thoughts once you have read it and prove me wrong in thinking you are nothing more than a Moonbat

JFGentile

Matthew P said:

‘...I refer you to Schopenhauer "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."’

You seem to forget, Matthew, that you were claiming that virtually the whole world agrees with you. If you knew anything about Schopenhauer, you would know that he instinctively took the opposite view from what the whole world believed, For example, he thought, quite rightly, that Hegel was a charlatan. So he would have been ultra-sceptical of the left-liberal consensus, which you seem to share, that Israel was wrong and Hamas/Jihadistan was right.

Dixon

Leon Trimble
January 9th, 2009 9:36pm
It's time for both sides to grow up. "

You should read a bit of Transactional Analysis. "OK Words" is a good starter.

Concerned Jew

Looks like Israel is facing waqr crmes allegations. They have already admitted lying about the children who died in the school. Now news comes out of people who were asked to shelter in a building which the ISraelis shelled.

Dixon

Another ray of light on the horizon is a system being developed by Israel called "Iron Dome". This can shoot down any projectile from the size of a large mortar round ( 155mm ) upwards. Including Qassam missiles and their Grad siblings. It is supposedly very effective but not yet at the deployment stage.

Now I wonder how the anti-Israelis will try to spin such a system to look like an offensive move...the way they have with the anti-suicide barrier.

Meanwhile, I find it instructive that Israeli rocket-propelled projectiles are referred to by the British media as "missiles" whilst Hamas rocket-propelled missiles are referred to as "rockets". Why this selectivity in media vocabulary? Surely it is because "missile" sounds sophisticated and deadly whereas "rocket" sounds like something primitive and insignificant, even conjuring up images of Nov 5th.

An object projected through space as a weapon is a "missile" by definition, whatever the specifics and whoever projects it.

Dixon

floatingvoter
January 9th, 2009 9:44pm
Although India and China have not condemned the war this doesn't mean alot. Both care very little for both Israel or Hamas or anybody else in the middle east unless they are trading partners. The Indian media however have damned the war. "

Their governments have not. whereas Chinas mercenary inclination to support whichever side suits them is precisely what I consider to their credit. They are not interfering, because they have nothing to gain. If all western nations did the same, Israel would be allowed to finish what they have to do without interference.

Its the moralising and squaemish of the West that sickens me and which I see very little evidence of in either China or India ( as states ).

Adam B.

MatthewP, why not talk Schopenhauer to Hamas? I'm sure you could have a good discussion with such open minds, full of intellectual rigour and curiosity. Or perhaps you could actually say something substantive on the issue?

Utterly clueless...

Michael B

MatthewP, quoting and arrogating Schopenhauer, rote-like, chapter and verse, and absent literally anything that is more cogently, more coherently forwarded - that would almost certainly not set well with Schopenhauer himself. First you arrogate and absorb "virtually the entire world population" to your cause, now Schopenhauer, and both with facile ease.

As to the suffering of those who are more truly innocent, we can at least agree to hope that will be minimized. As to who is more truly innocent, that is likely to be a different subject entirely. I wish you well.

Derek

To MathewP (in particular): "Virtually the entire world population rejects your myopic fantasy world where there is no occupation, no illegal wall, no illegal settlements, no assassinations and no constant military threat from Israel." Well, yes, and at one time "virtually the entire world population" thought the sun revolved around the earth and the earth was still - "eppur si muove"!

Trev

Thank god someone has finally got the bottle to stand up and tell it how it really is. Thank You Melanie Phillips your a truly beautiful person.and very very courageous.

W.B. Harris

Which is worse… being brainwashed by a media under control by radical left wing socialistic philosophy… or not actively standing for accountability of our government.

Whether its Nazism, communism, or socialism… the concept has only one goal – to rule each person, who will be no greater than a slave, while the terrorists of Islam want only to eliminate each and every Jew, Christian or any other person not acceptable in their eyes.

Israel’s only mistake was not destroying its enemy when they had the opportunity. Their expression of willing to live in peace has led them to where they are today.

Too many people believe that there is morality in war… but reality doesn’t bare that to be a fact. We can’t legislate love either. Victory is the only way to peace.

Reading these responses tells me that most aren’t willing to stand and be counted… but are only eager to just complain without standing for something. If we don’t, we’ll fall for the false prophet leaders and follow them aimlessly with a ring in our noses.

There isn’t too much time left in history to resist the onrushing tide of sin and death, that will overwhelm us very soon. Loose lips sink ships, but the sweet talk of Liberals can destroy a Nation.

Where do each of us stand?

DWE

Suicide bombing, which has not occurred since 2005 in accordance with Hamas' agreement, was a desperation measure to bring the oppression to
Israelis as it was brought to Palestinian civilian men, children, women. I see it as no worse than
the cluster bombing, strafing and deliberate targeting of civilians, or wait a minute, not deliberate, but bound to occur. Fine split of a hair, there. To put this in terms of having less value for life is blood-libel, and a cruel irony.

Mike

Straydingo: Amir Taheri was the editor of the Iranian newspaper 'Kayan' when I evacuated to Tehran from Beirut in 1976. He is a journalist who is supremely qualified to comment on events in the Middle East, and should be applauded for this article. Although I believe your invective re MatthewP is unnecessary and therefore counter-productive,
I would like also to recommend this insight on Hamas provided at http://tinyurl.com/82fj3y

However, this should not distract from the legitimate right of the Palestinians to continue to resist the 40 years illegal and criminal Occupation of their lands.

JC

Melanie, have you seen this story? http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32393_A_Staged_Scene_in_a_Gaza_Hospital_-_Update-_CNN_Yanks_Video Is this, in fact, a staged scene for the media? Now why would CNN suddenly remove this video from its site? Oh look, why isn't that our old pal Dr. Mads Gilbert?

phil

--andy c ,I don't think I have ever sullied my name by addressing you ,but I will now because I AM SICK OF SEEING YOUR DISGUSTING LIES AND FILTH-many here criticise and disagree and they get answered and some persuaded ,they are normal humans without the pathological hatred that you display and utterly devalue anything you write .You do not care for humanity ,it is a pretence and inhabits a mind emanating from depravity

Davidka

the UN rushes as usual to accuse israel of war crimes but cannot even accuse the Sudanese gov of war crimes in Darfur and in fact will someone point out to me any instances of UN war crime prosecutions of genocides or massacres carried out by Islamists anywhere.
England is riddled with demopaths living in a state of confusion caused by cognitive dissonance. As long as they are busy searching for outrages under their mantles of political correctness, the british elites know full well that they will not turn on BRITAIN and canabilize it. better to keep them shilling for Hammas or the kosovar albanians et al. How many of these dregs would have backed Hitler simply because of the soviet German agreement? how many packed PolPot in full view of his marxist inspired genocide?
The fact is that they have lost the ability to recognise right from wrong perhaps intentionally in search of uber liberalism. Which has left us, the old style liberals, aligning ourselves with conservative thinking.

phil

mathew P You have been heartily berated here by most except me ,silly me ,as I can see speaking to you and assuming goodwill is a waste of time -you have no answers also ,assuming you are not ignorant ,and will not respond -its easy MP to dish it out ,harder for a man to respond with dignity .

JC

Well. It would appear that CNN is insisting that the video I asked about at 9:29 is genuine. http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32404_CNN_Says_the_Video_is_Genuine I guess each person can only watch the three versions of the report and decide for themselves what they believe.

Guardianista

Melanie, your blog is becoming increasingly hysterical. Tone it down a little please.
I find it especially amusing how you attack the BBC and yet continue to take their shilling.

And the Israel Govt? They're sowing dragon's teeth.

Augustus

It would be well to remember the operational principle of modern journalism: There is no news or reward in recounting that barbarous terrorists, or savage governments, murder innocents, but a great deal if accidental deaths can be pinned on Israel or America. The former earns a journalist no audience, but often real danger; the latter safety, praise, a possible reward, a book contract, or university guest lectureship.

Ben Tzur

DWE thinks Hamas stopped suicide bombings willingly, as a peace gesture; for him, rockets shot into population centres are no contradiction. But Hamas did not stop suicide bombings; they tried like heck to continue them, but the security barriers around Gaza, and the security fence around the West Bank, stopped them. An interesting proof that they were stopped by Israel, and not voluntarily, is given by Hamas leaders themselves, in speeches to other Arab media: see ttp://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_060607e.htm, and for Islamic Jihad's views, http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/ct_250308e.htm.

In effect, Israel has solved the problem of suicide bombing terrorism. Now it must solve the problem of rocket terrorism. That terrorism can be defeated is a very powerful message from Israel's responses: it is the canary in the mine for all Western liberal democracies, including the European ones that abandon it in its struggle just as they abandoned the Jews to the Nazis in WWII. Israel's triumph in this battle with jihadi Islam and racist pan-Arabism will also benefit precisely those nations as well.

phil

Mike is this you in the independent on fisks daily tirade -and if so will you be taking part ?-I truly hope it is just a lunatic and not you

quote
When the next holocaust comes the Jews will have no one else to blame but themselves.

Posted by Mike | 10.01.09, 12:43 GMT

david lynn san francisco

MatthewP - You quote Schopenhauer, you who talks about "Virtually the entire world population."

Please read this quote (from left to right):

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).

Mark Twain

Michael

Has anyone seen this piece by Naomi Klein?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/10/naomi-klein-boycott-israel

What a disgrace.

Dave

From the Economist;
" ...a conflict that has lasted 100 years is not susceptible to easy solutions or glib judgments. Those who choose to reduce it to the “terrorism” of one side or the “colonialism” of the other are just stroking their own prejudices. At heart, this is a struggle of two peoples for the same patch of land. It is not the sort of dispute in which enemies push back and forth over a line until they grow tired. It is much less tractable than that, because it is also about the periodic claim of each side that the other is not a people at all—at least not a people deserving sovereign statehood in the Middle East."
Both sides need to move beyond the "debate" we see on Mel's website. I'd be interested to know what Mel wants to do to move forward.

Norman

MathewP does not understand Schopenhauer. Schopenhauer believed that the senses deceive us and that the truth is a slow process by Reason.He would say that all the images of war are to be distrusted (he was against commonsense realism) and that we must look at the Pal cause and the Israeli cause over along period of time to understand the wars and violence. This is what in short what Schopenhauer's Idealism ( with a capital I ) means.
MatthewP statement needs much more context.

Ian K. Ellard

Dear all,
I think we may be missing one crucial point about human shields, which, as I understand it, was the subject of this post.

It is obviously very bad to use human shields, a technique designed to protect something deemed more important than the life of a person, or the lives of people.

However.

The whole POINT of a human shield, terrible a tactic though it may be, is that you DON'T BLOW IT UP. Because it's made of PEOPLE. The ethical stopper that that puts on the affair is what makes it callous, but also what makes it effective.

Complaining that Hamas uses human shields is entirely valid. Complaining that this means Israeli forces are thereby made to kill more people is entirely ridiculous.

I hope that this point stands, however the room feels about the war as a whole.

Mike

phil: Not this Mike old pal. Of all the 'Mike's' around all you have to remember is that I'm the original! This other 'Mike' is indeed a lunatic......best to ignore him. By the way, I've never commented on any of Fisk's articles.....much prefer being here having a go at Mel and her supporters. Always better knowing who you are dealing with...yes?

Mischa

Facts, history, images
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/Israel_stealing_palestine.jpg

Michael

I can't see how either of the sides in this particular dispute can claim any kind of moral high ground whatsoever.

An utterly pathetic display akin to something seen in a playground squabble between two children.

Grow up and step into the 21st century you medieval morons.

phil

Ian K. Ellard-your compassion is admirable but the logic of it escapes me .should it have stopped the russians in 1945 for instance if hitler had lined up his population in front of his tanks on the outskirts of Berlin or V.weapons -that analogy is not that extreme ,he certainly brought up the children to fight at the front .Your thoughts are kind so this is not meant to sound sarcastic.

phil

view the quality of a brain from the guardian ,going cheap never been used ,

"guardianista at 11,12

Melanie, your blog is becoming increasingly hysterical. Tone it down a little please.
I find it especially amusing how you attack the BBC and yet continue to take their shilling.

And the Israel Govt? They're sowing dragon's teeth.

I have no doubt he is laughing in his beer and patting himself on the back .an amusing fellow!

phil

"Concerned Jew "come on own up you are neither are you ?.just another truth bender masquerading.

As in the sad case of Jenin it will no doubt all come out that a pack of lies were perpetrated on a gullible world .One thing I have to admit is that hamas are excellent at propaganda and lies ,when its proven to be so they just substitute a different one .
You are sticking up for people using the same methods as the taliban and are killing our own soldiers in AFGHANISTAN .

Shame on you have the courage to tell us what you really are,and that is certainly not Jewish .

phil

Thank you Mike I am relieved it wasn,t you as I have always said you mean well .That column is now attracting the biggest lunatics that I have ever seen post anywhere,one even suggested hitler was being insulted by being compared to the IDF and she is not the worst -fisk will bear a heavy responsibility for what he is inciting -if he actually has a God he should be fearful of meeting him .

Ian Agg

Like one of your earlier posts I also contacted my MP who seemed to be annoyed by my observations and bringing your column to his attention.I am appalled by the BBC biased reporting and have sent a complaint to them and await an their excuse.

Adam B.

Mike, the land was never "Palestinian."

Robert Edward

It is fair to question Israeli tactics but the fact remains that any rocket fired at Israel from behind the human shield of the larger Palestinian could carry a chemical, a biological or nuclear warhead - and likely will in the future. Soon thousands rather than dozens may die in a single attack.

It is hard to say what we in the West would agree to do do under these circumstances but I doubt that we all would meet such vicious attacks with a calm stoicism, and a resolute adherence to carefully weighed proportionality of response.

While we may hope for the doves to win out over the hawks in this conflict we should also demand to know what the critics of Israel would have them do when faced by terrorists firing deadly missiles while nested among children.

Ellen

Dave (January 10th, 2009 1:28pm), if you wish to read a rag as pathetic as The Economist, that is your prerogative, but don’t expect other people to swallow trash like this: “At heart, this is a struggle of two peoples for the same patch of land.”

No. At its heart, The Economist can’t bring itself to tell the truth about the global jihad.

Hamas MP Yunis Al-Astral puts The Economist straight:
"Allah has chosen you for Himself and for His religion, so that you will serve as the engine pulling this nation to the phase of succession, security, and consolidation of power, and even to conquests thorough da'wa and military conquests of the capitals of the entire world.

"Very soon, Allah willing, Rome will be conquered, just like Constantinople was, as was prophesised by our Prophet Muhammad. Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam – this capital of theirs will be an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread through Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, and even Eastern Europe.

"I believe that our children or our grandchildren will inherit our jihad and our sacrifices, and Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them. Today, we instil these good tidings in their souls, and by means of the mosques and The Koran books, and the history of our prophets, his companions, and the great leaders, we prepare them for the mission of saving humanity from the hellfire on the brink of which they stand."
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x_qbKrOF64w

Let’s remind ourselves of that Economist line once more (no laughing at the back, please): “At heart, this is a struggle of two peoples for the same patch of land.”

On this very post Ms Phillips has provided a link that has edited highlights of Yunis Al-Astral’s spite along with plenty of other wicked people connected to Hamas:
http://www.memritv.org/video.html

You say, Dave: 'I'd be interested to know what Mel wants to do to move forward.’
Melanie Phillips has written endlessly on this website and on her old website about the best chances of peace. It is because this conflict is to do with Islamism - and is not a boundary dispute - that there may be a way forward:

“…here lies the paradox which offers the best hope for Israel’s future. For the very Islamism which so menaces it might finally unlock the door to peace. This is because both Islamism and Iran threaten not just Israel but the ‘moderate’ Arab world too. Accordingly, the last thing those Arabs want is an Iranian-backed, Islamised state of Palestine. Egypt and Jordan simply cannot afford to have Iran or the Muslim Brotherhood on their doorsteps in a Hamas-dominated Gaza or West Bank. Currently, they rely on Israel to prevent it. But increasingly, talk of some kind of Jordan–Egypt–Palestinian confederation is in the air.

“As the analyst Jonathan Spyer has noted, Jordan’s recent decision to connect Jericho to the Jordanian electricity grid is an example of its increasing involvement in the West Bank. And behind the scenes, the more realistic Palestinians have grasped that their best chance of having any future at all lies in just such a confederation. Such an outcome would have history on its side. Some readers may feel the need to lie down after reading the rest of this sentence, but Jordan is historically the state of Arab Palestine. This was the original two-state ‘solution’ back in 1921, when Winston Churchill unilaterally gave away three quarters of the original territory of Palestine to the Hashemite dynasty, creating what is now Jordan, with the remainder supposed to go to the Jews.”

Extracted from her Spectator essay “Happy 60th birthday, Israel: well done for surviving”

www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/features/643426/happy-60th-birthday-israel-well-done-for-surviving.thtml

Sam Armstrong

phil
January 10th, 2009 4:24pm

"I find it especially amusing how you attack the BBC and yet continue to take their shilling".

It's not "their" shilling. It's mine, and every other license fee payer's shilling. And I want to see Melanie Phillips on TV and radio so I can admire her honesty and integrity, and also encourage others to tune in when she's on. Part of my license fee funds utter liberal nonsense so I fail to see why some of it should not also fund the transmission of ideas with which I agree.

I would agree with you if Melanie Phillips was taking money from a private sector broadcaster and was moderating her views in accordance with company policy, but she doesn't do that. She mainly appears on public-funded TV and radio, and speaks her mind.

Straydingo

Mike January 10th, 2009 9:06am
“Although I believe your invective re MatthewP is unnecessary and therefore counter-productive” - unfortunately my patience has been wearing thin of late – most of those that post here with opposing views to Melanie Phillips tend to make emotionally charged and factually light statements and being an Aussie I have a tendency for saying what I think – you would have thought that after now living in London for the last 10 years I might have learned to be more refined .
You finished your post with the closing statement:
“However, this should not distract from the legitimate right of the Palestinians to continue to resist the 40 years illegal and criminal Occupation of their lands”.
I would genuinely like to understand what you mean behind the illegal and criminal Occupation of their lands. Are you referring to the West Bank or Israel as a whole – I am sure you are aware that Gaza has not been “Occupied” for some time now.
I look forward to your response.

Paul Freeman

"I don't think there has ever been a time in the history of warfare when any army has made more efforts to reduce civilian casualties and the deaths of innocent people than the IDF in Gaza." Colonel Richard Kemp CBE, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, on the Gaza situation

See the whole interview on the BBC at: http://www.bicom.org.uk/news/operation-cast-lead/videos/bbc-news--military-analysis

Mr Melrose

Dear W.G Harris - Could you please let me know when the onrushing tide of sin and death is due here in Norfolk - I would very much like to immerse myself in the sin bit before hopping deftly inside to avoid death - although I realise I may have to go up to the bedroom or even sit on the roof if it is a particularly strong tide. Thanks.

phil

Sam Armstrong- those words were not mine they were the poster (guardianista) I replied to and "disagreed with"-I think the world of MELANIE SHE IS A HEROINE -I think the typing changed when it went up.:)

mark

Gil - "Funny, most of the world didn't have much to say about the massacre of defenceless Jews in Mumbai or Russian atrocities in Georgia."
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What? Were you asleep?
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Dave M - how are WWII and Nagasaki relevant please? Are Palestinians Nazis?
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AFS - "They prefer it when Jews meekly submit to gas chambers"
What? Criticism of Israel's actions in Gaza = wishing all Jews died in the gas chambers?
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Have you been to Auschwitz, do you actually understand the meaning of those words? Comparing criticism of Israel to a desire for another holocaust is truly disgraceful to the memory of the people who died in those camps. How anyone can speak so lightly of the holocaust is totally beyond me.
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davo - You actually have no proof of any of that, though. Just like Melanie's statement that Hamas were using Palestinian children as human shields was based on a video which showed nothing of the sort.
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Dixon - Israel has had a naval, land and air blockade of Gaza for the last 18 months, in order to try and destroy Hamas.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1212041458638
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I really think everyone needs to calm down and take a step back. Try and understand the other side's arguments, stop seeing bad intentions in every comment that takes an opposing view, and perhaps we can find some way forward.
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For example, here are two interesting articles by intelligent people:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article5461544.ece
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine
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Do I agree with every sentiment expressed in each article? Of course not, that would be impossible because they have different conclusions. But they are nevertheless both interesting. Try and understand why each person thinks the way they do and you'll start to get an idea of how complicated this whole conflict is.

HarleyDavidson

The Hamas apologists on this blog really do hate Melaine from straying from the BBC, Guardian, Hamas party line. What is their argument? Civilian death? Children getting killed? Israel is fighting an amoral war because of it?

What don't any of you understand about war? War means people get killed, always did and always will. War doesn't take place is some clean British court with everyone wearing fine suits and wigs and both side elegantly arguing with words paid for by the people who hired them. Nor is WAR decided by elegantly dressed men and women in the UN whose primary aim is to get their photos taken by international newspapers and getting their faces on TV to make themselves look good.

Granted I live across the pond and read Melaine's blog long before it was printed in this form in a newspaper. I even read all post who write on this blog and I very rarely find even one individual writing here with any experience in fighting an actual war.

Do any of you know what's its like in an actual battle? To see, hear, and experience things literally impossible to describe to the uninitiated. Brutality and heroism and just being completely and overwhelmingly amazed to even take your next breath, shivering with relief at the momentary thought of being just alive, a place where the morals of ordinary life are as far from you as yesterday's memories.

It's a place where death is the ordinary and the possibility of life is the exception beyond the instant. You see thing, you know. Ugly things. Children and women no one intended to harm, yet here they are. And you momentarily wonder who was the sick f*cks who did this? Morals? There's no morals here. You can't even tell who the enemy is until they shoot in your direction and then you all unload in that direction where the shooting came from with everything you have.

Then you read all those blogs about "rules" of war. Now that's even more insane. What "rules?" Have any of you ever been on that battlefield and then asked that question? Terrorists don't follow "rules." Duh! That's why they're called terrorists.

HarleyDavidson

Britain's Bloody Hands

Rick Moran
Given the sanctions that have been in place against Iran since 1980 and more recently, following 9/11, it might seem impossible for the mullahs to get their hands on funds that have supposedly been frozen or otherwise made unavailable to them.

Enter the British bank Lloyds TSB Group and their facilitating the transfer of $350 million to the Iranian regime, falsifying records by stripping identifying information from the transactions.

The New York Times:

Iranian banks illegally shifted billions of dollars through American financial institutions in recent years, and authorities suspect some of the money may have been used to finance Iran's nuclear and missile programs.

Details of the illicit transfers came to light on Friday when New York State and federal authorities announced that a large British bank had agreed to pay $350 million to settle accusations that it had helped the Iranian banks hide the transactions.

The British bank, the Lloyds TSB Group, "stripped" information that would have identified the transfers in order to deceive American financial institutions, which are barred from doing business with Iranian banks, Robert M. Morgenthau, the Manhattan district attorney, said. Lloyds acknowledged its conduct and agreed to turn over detailed records of the transactions.

"They went to great lengths to obliterate any identification," Mr. Morgenthau said.

The district attorney's office was still investigating nine major banks that might be engaging in similar conduct, but prosecutors declined to name them. Mr. Morgenthau said, however, that money in one transaction was used to buy a large amount of tungsten, an ingredient for making long-range missiles. He said he suspected that other funds might have been used to finance Iran's nuclear program.

In the current case, investigators were unsure what the money was used for, said Daniel J. Castleman, the chief assistant district attorney. The stripping made it impossible to determine where the money was going, he said. "We don't know of any money that has gone to any terrorist organizations, individuals or anything like that," he said.

Up to 9 other banks were involved in this financial tomfoolery? It would be incredible if we didn't remember Lenin's words about capitalists; in the end, "The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them."

Rose

Hamas is way ahead in the propaganda war. They are striking at the emotional level. Israel's defense is too geared to the intellect. Although Mark Regev is outstanding.
Arab Worldwide T.V. channels are churning out 24/7 harrowing images of suffering. Some I'm sure the result of Palestinians being used as human shields. This coverage is whipping up hysterical hatred.
When Israel defends on the emotional level it needs more than videos made at the Media Dept. of The Hebrew University.
Perhaps Steven Spielberg could redeem himself by using his brilliance(or other willing Directors)by making movies with the ingredients of blockbusters based on scripts using True storylines from which there must be a wealth of material showing the self sacrificing and heroic actions of Israeli soldiers and their loved ones.

Dave

Ellen. So do you think a huge full scale attack like this would advance Mel's theory? Or harden support behind Hamas?
Experience teaches us that when Islamists do achieve power they tend to quickly alientate the people who support them.
Perhaps if Israel had waited a more moderate group might well have come to power.
Now we'll never know. (And seriously, even if you don't agree with The Economist, it's always interesting and the arguments coherent. To dismiss it as a rag is just a sign you're part of the problem. As I said we really have to move beyond this sort of "debate"

mark

harleydavidson - "Then you read all those blogs about "rules" of war. Now that's even more insane. What "rules?" Have any of you ever been on that battlefield and then asked that question? Terrorists don't follow "rules." Duh! That's why they're called terrorists."
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Right, terrorists don't follow rules. But surely we expect states like Israel (or the UK, USA, France, etc.) to act better than terrorists? Or do you think Israel should act like terrorists do?

Mike

Straydingo: I'm not referring to Israel as a whole. Rather that part of Palestine Occupied by Israel since the 1967 war. You will recall that although the IDF withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005, having governed it since 1967, it maintained it's control of the strip's airspace, territorial waters, and offshore maritime access, as well as its side of the Gaza-Israel border. If this is not an 'occupation' in the strictest sense, do you have another name for it, perhaps?

How do you know I'm not an Aussie?

Straydingo

Mark,

I think DaveM was referring to the Allies use of Nuclear weapons against Japanese cities in which civilians were the targets - You can also through in the British firebombing of Dresden in Germany.

I ask you and the fellow Anti-Zionists, who are now calling for Israel to be charged with war crimes, that if we are going to try and charge the IDF (when it is well documented that they are bending backwards to avoid civilian targets) does that mean the Allied forces of WW2 should now also stand trial for War Crimes? – bit of a sticky wicket.

JFGentile

"Perhaps if Israel had waited a more moderate group might well have come to power. "

Oh my, sancta simplicitas!

JFGentile

HarleyDavidson reminds me a bit of those people on JihadWatch who never miss an opportunity to rubbish Britain while turning a blind eye to dhimmitude in the good ol'US of A. Don't these fools realize we're all in this together?

Mike

phil: Simon says 'sadly the bombing of the children in Gaza is not totally a bad thing.
Many of those Hamas children, given the extremism and poverty in which they are being brought up, have any chances other than to become terrorists and kill innocent Israelis'

Can this man remain a friend of yours after this? For me it has to be the most appalling statement I've ever read on these pages. I desperately hope you will condemn it, and ask him to withdraw it unreservedly. It's an insult to the IDF who are trying so hard, we are told, to minimise the killing of civilians. If he doesn't withdraw it I will personally ensure it's posted on every appropriate website available to me.

phil

Simon I DO NOT WANT TO SEE PALESTINIAN CHILDREN DEAD .that is not a message for andy c he is a disgrace we should not follow his demented path and we must never sink to his level .despite what those that neither understand nor care Jewish people are not warmongers and want no part in this tragedy.The sooner it ends the better but it must end with hope for a better future for both sides and that elusive and precious peace .

Louise

Just before the start of tonight's BBC News bulletin, the E24 (Entertainment) section of the previous bulletin reviewed the film "Defiance", in which actor Daniel Craig plays a World War Two Jewish Resistance fighter. And the excerpt from the film chosen by Al Beeb editors to alert the viewer that this review was shortly coming up? It showed Craig's character declaring: "We might be hunted like animals - but we will not become animals".
(No coincidence, methinks!)

Don't forget, folks! Despite a malicious hoax e-mail attempting to sabotage events by declaring them cancelled, this Sunday morning's London and Manchester rallies in support of Israel WILL be going ahead.

NickC

I drove past Hyde Park today. I saw one of the rallys starting up, perhaps just a few thousand people. A mix of Islamic folk and English people. The SWP had a very large presence today.

A huge police presence too. I only slowed for a minute but I heard them chant 'Hamas Hamas Jews to the Gas'.

I've lived in England all my life, I look English, I sound English and I've been very fortunate to have a nice life here and never been the victim of anti-semitism (except a little bit at Tottenham matches but I dont really count that) but actually hearing thousands of people chant that with real venom upset me a greatly.

I very nearly threw up as I drove off up the Edgware Road. I didn't expect to be so rattled. You see some loon saying 'kill all jews' from behind his beard and bunker in a desert thousands of miles away and you tend to laugh it off. In central London, when its chanted happily by your fellow tax payer infront of the police who's wages you help to pay. It's very different. It's very real.

I dont think England, its governemt or its people would tolerate this if they were saying 'gas the blacks' or 'gas the Cornish' or 'gas the indians' but anti semitism seems to be the acceptable face of racism in 2009.

A sad day.

Ellen

Dave, the Israelis have a right to defend their people from the global jihad just as much as anyone else.

Experience teaches us that the more you give in to terrorists the more powerful they get.

The Economist is a total rag if it seriously believes this: “At heart, this is a struggle of two peoples for the same patch of land" when the political party that is organising those rocket attacks into Israel is already slavering over conquering Rome, of which it says "this capital of theirs will be an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread through Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, and even Eastern Europe."

What's coherent in The Economist's pathetic argument when you realise that?

That fact that you can't deal with what Hamas' real agenda and that of all the other Islamists are about is a sign that you're part of the problem.

You ask for debate but when the facts are put in front of you, you just strike some pathetic, incoherent, sanctimonious pose.

AFS

mark, you're drawing hysterical conclusions that in no rational way can be said to follow from my remarks. (But I think you betray yourself with the equation you formulated in your reply.) You're responding in a manner that, psychologically speaking, suggests "projection." As you do again by telling us all to calm down. I think you're the one who needs to calm down.

Adam B.

mark, Hamas ARE Nazis.

Sam Armstrong

Sorry Phil.

Guardianista, then. That makes sense now.

Towncar

Have some posts been removed? It seems like others are not posted.

beloved

Mathew P wrote: Melanie, I have to say I find your comments over the past week distasteful, inhumane and hysterical. Virtually the entire world population rejects your myopic fantasy world where there is no occupation, no illegal wall, no illegal settlements, no assassinations and no constant military threat from Israel. Please open your eyes, your mind and your heart to the extraorinary suffering of innocent Palestinians who literally have nowhere to flee to.

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Mathew, have you watched the videos at the IDF site? I don't know anybody who doesn't support Israel.

Louise

The BBC is making much of Prince Harry's alleged "offensive remarks" regarding Muslims and gays. It tells us nothing, however, about the despicable racist chanting in Hyde Park containing the "gas" word, described by Nick C above. How different its reportage would be if the BNP was doing the chanting.
Much of the BBC's mischief-making comes from omissions of this sort. It has never, so far as I know, made explicit the antisemitic, nihilistic, Jihadist nature of the Hamas Charter. Instead, that is left to the likes of Denis McShane MP, who has an excellent article regarding same in the current "Jewish Chronicle".

phil

Mike I have no idea why simon wrote that or even whether he did it -you know people post here in another persons name -in fact your name previously and mine -all I can tell you is that I have never heard such a remark from a Jewish person -so please do not spread that about. you will see that I wrote to him immediately I saw it .

phil

Sam Armstrong-no prob I understand :)

phil

mike I wrote this on !britain turns ugly and you did not acknowledge it -perhaps you did not see it so I will put it here for you ..

"

Mike-I am not a ZIONIST and there lies your problem ,you do not know what one is ! - I have told you this before but I will do so again -it is the desire of some Jews to live in the land of Israel -WHAT NAME WOULD YOU GIVE A Catholic who is loyal to his country of birth and does not want to live in ROME -That's not too complicated is it ? I want to remain a Brit as I am sure does Mel .though I suppose I should let her speak for herself -What would you call fisk who lives in Beirut ? I have a name for him but it would differ from yours :)

Just between you and me if your man fisk ventured into Tel-Aviv you could be sure he would come out alive -I don't think I would have that luck in hesbollahland would I ?,and don't you worry either you could go there too(T.A. ) and live ,you would not have to be circumcised and you would enjoy a life in a land not full of hate .The chicken soup is good too ."

Mike

phil: We await 'simon's' response. Meanwhile, I'm astonished why the 'Moderator(s)' published it......further why it hasn't already been removed from these pages?

Pete Hoskin

Mike & phil: Simon's comment has now been removed. Apologies it made it up in the first place.

Mike

phil: Indeed I did.......it must be awaiting publication. Since Pete Hoskin is presently in the chair no doubt it will surface shortly.

phil

thanks Pete

phil

Mike I dont suppose Pete had to moderate it did he ?-try again here

Mike

phil: You assume too much......now why do you think for a single moment that it wouldn't be published when it is coming from my pen? You'll have to wait!

phil

Mike I have been moderated on occasion but I often tell Pete that I expect to be ,I just want it off my chest :):)

Mike

Pete Hoskin: I know it must be a very busy day for you but since Phil is pressing me for a reply to his post, do you think you could find it....uploaded about 22:20 GMT yesterday. Oh...and thank you intervening with the 'simon' post.

Rami

First lie in this article is about the human shields, the locations of firing Hamas missiles differs from the spots that rained with Israeli Bombings,also the combat areas between the Palestinians and Israeli army.

The Muslim Belief, forbids him to join women and children in war and the historical examples are very clear.

Second Thing: Prophet Muhammad says, Don't trait the ones who trait you.

As Arabs, We recognize the difference between Jews and Zionists, We Don't Hate Jews, The Jews lived here in Damascus as citizens till 90's and some of them left Syria by there choice while others still here.

when you want to discuss the ideology of a nation (like Palestine)you can't take a sentence from some guy and make an illusion analysis and judgment about it.

Pete Hoskin

Mike: having followed your exchange with Phil, I was just about to comment on that! Will try to track it down now.

Pete Hoskin

Mike: it's now showing on the "Britain turns ugly" thread (where you posted it). Apologies it didn't go up last night.

MathewP

I challenge ANY human being to view these photographs of the effects of weaponry on other human beings (men, women and children)in Gaza and still support military action.
I know the link contains the word islam, but please do not be prejudicial. These are the photos NEVER shown in the mainstream media, but they are all too real, it breaks my heart to say, being a father, a son, a husband, and a brother myself. If I can pre-empt one rebuttal, please have the dignity not to suggest thses photos are fakes.
To the moderator I plead, allow this post to be viewed by your readers.
http://portail.islamboutique.fr/gaza2008/

phil

mike in case you cant find it -here is my reply ,duplicated from btu thread

"Mike I will answer the first part its because I am a proud and grateful Brit .The rest of your post is off the wall -way beyond me ,but nothing new when you do not want to answer me .AS for fisk he is writing the worst incitement I have ever seen in the independent ,one punter even admitted he had an IRRATIONAL HATRED FOR JEWS TODAY .that is the sort of reader he attracts .low class uneducated racists and most cannot even write in the Queens English .The man knows no shame and his views are beyond disgusting but sadly in these strange days he has an audience -I just wish we could see him in debate with someone like Mel ,he would fall like a pack of cards because those who speak untruthfully cant even remember what they have said .Isuggest you leave those remarks about ADAM b out of it ,too distasteful for me ."

I am fed up with writing so much these last couple of weeks but I will not be deterred whilst this attack on Israel through the media is taking place .The two demonstrations this weekend showed if it was needed the difference between the type of demonstrator .one with dignity and compassion and the other the usual gang of hooligans and racists interspersed with a few normal people whose views I wish I could change .

mark

Straydingo - Firstly, I'm not an anti-Zionist. You don't know me, please don't ascribe views to me simply to make your own argument easier. It's a pretty poor debating style.
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Secondly, the firebombing of Dresden is quite different from Israel's current action in Gaza, but yes, the firebombing of Dresden was (I believe) a war crime. Whether Israel's actions amount to a war crime is another matter entirely, but we can nevertheless still argue about whether they are right or wrong. The deliberate targeting of civilians is a war crime, though (so Hamas' rockets would qualify, and I think Israel's 18-month blockade of Gaza probably would too).
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Phil - I agree with you, "The sooner it ends the better but it must end with hope for a better future for both sides and that elusive and precious peace."
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Unfortunately I think the new outbreak of violence will make this peace more difficult to achieve. Both sides will be more distrustful of each other, and therefore less likely to sit down and make the necessary compromises. I hope a new incoming US administration will be able to gain the trust of both sides and get them to sit down and talk with each other.
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AFS - I directly quoted you. You said: "the world really does hate it when Jews fight back. They prefer it when Jews meekly submit to gas chambers; can't stand it when they fight back".
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Which of these parts does not follow:
a) you think the world would prefer that the Jews just went to the gas chambers;
b) which is a ridiculous allegation, and in any case, totally incomparable with the present situation;
c) therefore glibly making light of the holocaust?
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I have been to Auschwitz, and it's a horrific place, particularly in winter. The biting wind and the stark landscape combined with the brutal monstrosity of the camp itself makes an indelible impact on you. You see the way that people - human beings - were forced to sleep on wooden slats in these freezing conditions, the inhumanity even of the toilets, the piles of shoes and human hair, and the cold, bare rooms that used to be the gas chambers where so many died in a brutal, mechanised and calculating way. You see the crematorium where two million bodies were burnt almost 24 hours a day, the stench of burning flesh filling the camp. And in the small exhibition space you see the pictures of those who died, and those who survived, malnourished, their eyes hollow, shells of human beings. It's a truly harrowing place.
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So how anyone can use the holocaust in such a glib way in an argument is beyond me.

MathewP

armchair generals of the world - what is your response to the pictures on the link I posted earlier? war does look more messy viewed close-up rather than on the sanitised western media... and if the inhabitants do crave martyrdom as is suggested so often on these pages, do not the images of grief-wracked and broken people viewing the remains of their loved ones speak a different story?

Straydingo

Mark
In reply to your post January 11th, 2009 6:01pm

I appreciate your response – I would agree that there is a difference in that the Allied forces intentionally targeted Dresden, Nagasaki & Hiroshima where the IDF have bent over backwards to avoid taking civilian lives.
However, I’d like to understand why you think that the bombing of Dresden, Nagasaki & Hiroshima were War Crimes. I believe that ultimately these Allied actions demonstrate that in order to destroy evil and protect your own civilians there comes a time when your enemies, who are hell bent of destroying you, have to pay a heavy price in so that the desired outcome, Peace, is secured. It was as a direct result of these Allied actions that peace was ultimately achieved sooner and in the end reduced the numbers of lives lost had the fighting continued.

The problem we have now is that the West is no longer united, nor has the stomach to tackle evil head on. The leftist’s liberals believe naively that War is totally avoidable and that through reasoned negotiations a peaceful outcome can always be achieved.

Show me where the UN has managed to secure a peaceful outcome – Zimbabwe, Sudan, Algeria, Kashmir, Cheyenne, Tibet, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, South America, Indonesia, Israel/Palestine, Vietnam, Cambodia, Sri Lanka....need I go on (Millions of lives have been lost and millions more suffer and what do the UN elite do – talk and then go and eat caviar in their 5 star hotels)
War should always be the last resort and diplomatic solutions should always be fully exhausted.
However, there is a point in time one must acknowledge that a tough decision is required in order to protect your civilian population, their quality of life and their freedoms. I believe that the Israelis had and did arrive at that moment the day they decided to strike at the heart of Hamas.

Additionally, refer to the Israeli blockade of Gaza as deliberating targeting the people of Gaza - it is well documented (although not reported by the MSM) that the primary reason behind Gaza’s boarders having been blockade was a direct consequence of Hamas continued bombing of Israel.
How different is Israel’s blockade to that of the UN trade embargo placed on Iraq before and after the first Gulf War – It is well documented that these UN Sanctions had a direct affect on the Iraqi civilians and caused untold deaths/suffering whilst not making the slightest bit of difference for Saddam and his leadership – we have seen the same results and failure occur in Iran.

The civilians of Gaza elected this terrorist organisation into power and therefore are accountable for Hamas actions therefore bear responsibly just as the Germans did in democratically electing the Nazis into power – unpleasant but a reality.

Finally, the fact is the Palestinian conflict is merely one battle field in a Global religious War that is being wagged across the world (Sudan, Algeria, Kashmir, Cheyenne, China, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Israel/Palestine, Thailand, Philippines, Cambodia, Sri Lanka) the problem is you and your fellow peers who hold similar ideological beliefs do not want to acknowledge this as it would challenge you whole belief structure to the core.

Straydingo

MathewP,

I could (but wont) provide you similar links showing the impact of the destruction all the suicide bombs and missiles that have been launched on Israel. However, I suspect this would not shake your ideological beliefs or opinions.

However, you are correct war is messy and nasty - however, what is your point - do you actually believe that the Political Leaders of Israel or the Soldiers of the IDF wake up and say I want to kill me an Arab today?

And I certainly do have doubts on all of these images being legitimate - Hezbolla and Hamas have long used staged scenes to deliver Propaganda to Westerners hungry to gobble up these images to fuel their anger - again if you want you could source information on this via the web - but I suspect you are not interested in considering this posibility

Jeff Levy-Makor

The previous week has seen the European communities collective outrage against Israeli aggression in Gaza.
I've seen the various demonstrations throughout Europe and obviously recognize the frustrations of well meaning citizens who cannot understand why Israel has launched such a focused and powerful attack on cramped Gaza.
Israel has long since adopted a policy of uncompromising defense and attack if countered by any force who threatens the state.
Over years, the daily missile attacks by Hamas have created nothing but havoc in Israel.
Hamas are also desperate to gain sympathy and continuing world opinion.
They've done that in spades.
The great pity is that they appear completely unwilling to recognize the existence of the country they have so tirelessly bombed for years.
Also, in pitching their launch pads in nurseries, schools, hospitals and refugee camps, the resulting retaliation by Israel will guarantee Hamas vital world favour.
Many hundreds have now died because of this carefully planned phase in the constant war with Israel.
Innocent Palestinians are being used as pawns in the 'struggle' when peace and prosperity has always been available at any moment.
Israel would much rather deal with the day to day problems of its economy, policies to implement and its continual agenda for peace in the region.
This war has only been caused because Israel has run out of alternatives when considering the safety of the population.
When the leaders of Hamas stop missile attacks and decide their men, women and children are more important than their hatred of their neighbour and personal quests for power, peace will emerge..
shalom
Jeff Makor
x

mark

Straydingo - You keep attributing to me things that I never said. Please do stop it.
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1. Not that I particularly want to move away from the subject at hand, but I didn't say that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes. That is a much more complicated and controversial case than the fire-bombing of Dresden, which I think clearly was a war crime. Brits should have the confidence to admit our mistakes, and this was one of them. The Soviet Union had already crossed the Oder river when Dresden - a city that had very little military value - was fire-bombed. The industrial areas in the suburbs weren't even targeted. The target instead was the historic city centre and civilians, possibly for the propaganda value that such destruction would provide, as well as (perhaps) retribution for the destruction of Coventry. Dresden does not work as an example for bringing a sooner end to the war, because it made little military difference.
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Hiroshima/Nagasaki is a more difficult example but certainly cannot be compared with the current actions in Israel / Gaza. Although it's a very tricky issue, I think the atom bombs probably were justified as they led to a much lower loss of life than would have been the case in a ground invasion.
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By contrast, in Israel, the current actions are only likely to prolong this 60-year long conflict. Israel is never going to be able to deal a knockout blow to terrorists, because terrorists are not like a conventional army. They don't depend on a hierarchical structure, they depend on the pervasive nature of their ideas. Setbacks will not reduce their morale, but will rather entrench their existing opinions or lead them to become even more hard-line.
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I don't agree to the view (which you suggested I hold) that Israel has bent over backwards to avoid taking civilian lives. I don't think it has deliberately targeted civilians, but I think it has neglected its responsibility to a territory and a people that it continues to occupy.
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2. Yes, the UN is a flawed organisation of member states.
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3. No, Hamas really started its rocket attacks in earnest in November, after the end of the cease-fire which Israel broke on 4 November. The cease-fire had existed since 19 June 2008. Rocket fire decreased 98% in the four and a half months between 18 June and 4 November in comparison with the four and half months preceding the ceasefire. The Nov 4 attack led to a resumption in large numbers of hostilities on both sides. On 14 December, a Hamas delegation in Cairo announced its willingness to continue the cease-fire, on condition that the blockade was lifted. Israel rejected these terms, and as a result, the cease-fire ended and Hamas resumed shelling the western Negev on 20 December.
Look at this graph (the source is the Israeli government):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rock_mort_gaza_2008.JPG
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4. "How different is Israel’s blockade to that of the UN trade embargo placed on Iraq... [which didn't] mak[e] the slightest bit of difference for Saddam and his leadership"
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Yes, I disagreed with the UN sanctions on Iraq, for a similar reason - because they caused massive harm to civilians, and didn't actually significantly impact the Saddam regime - in a similar way to Israel's action in Gaza.
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5. Firstly, only 45% of Palestinians voted for Hamas, so less than half of them should be held accountable for this according to your suggestion. But secondly, should every citizen of a country be held responsible for everything a country does (or, just those who voted for the governing party)? Should all Americans (or just Republican voters) be held responsible for Abu Ghraib? Should all Brits (or just Labour and Tory voters) be held responsible for Britain's role in Iraq? Of course not. Thirdly, if people can't vote should they be held responsible too? Should children be held responsible?
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6. "Finally, the fact is the Palestinian conflict is merely one battle field in a Global religious War... you and your fellow peers who hold similar ideological beliefs do not want to acknowledge this as it would challenge you whole belief structure to the core."
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I think the current crisis in Gaza has very little to do with China or Kashmir. Your attempt to view the world in such a narrow way ignores the complex reality of all the conflicts you mentioned. Therefore, the reason why your argument doesn't challenge my "belief structure" in any way is that it has very weak foundations.

Adam B.

MatthewP, are you a pacifist? People die in wars, and they die horribly. If you're a pacifist, fine - I don't agree with you, but at least you're consistent. if you're not a pacifist, you're a hypocrite.

Adam B.

mark, two observations:

1. The rocket attacks started 8 years ago, not in November.

2. Hamas stands for the extermination of every living Jew. Not so far removed from the Holocaust is it? The Nazis didn't start with the Holocaust, but they built up to it.

Adam B.

One more thing mark, you may not recognize the global jihad (and the attempt to destroy Israel as being part of it) but the jihadists do. What you think really isn't relevant, it's what they think.

roxn

Funny how the Palestinians always say - we love death and - you (Israelis) love life -

But whenever they are killed - (understandably) it's - look, Israel has killed one of our own -

It is rare that you will hear a Muslim (who supports Hamas) say that the Palestinians should stop firing rockets into Israel -

So they are not thinking clearly - they seem to be arguing for the right - of the Palestinians to fire rockets - into armed-to-the-hilt Israel unchallenged -

Hamas' intent is to take over Israel - then take over the world - for Islam - and since they were legitimately elected - they want Westerners' taxpayer money to pay for it - Western Muslims should call 'time out' on this insanity!

mark

Adam B,
1. Yes, of course I am aware of that, but as I pointed out there had been a lull from 18 June - 4 November. Rocket attacks dropped by 98% until Israel's attack on 4 Nov.
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2. Yes, Hamas does say those things in its founding charter. However, I'm (obviously) not in favour of Hamas ruling Israel, and the fact that Hamas were willing to sign (and hold to) a cease-fire with Israel which virtually ended rocket attacks between 18 June - 4 November suggests that they are a more pragmatic organisation with political objectives than you suggest.
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And yes, the holocaust really is quite different...

Towncar

"Adam B.
January 12th, 2009 12:03am
One more thing mark, you may not recognize the global jihad (and the attempt to destroy Israel as being part of it) but the jihadists do. What you think really isn't relevant, it's what they think."

Good luck getting this most important of points across; I've been trying for days.

Tomaso

Let's stop the double standards.
Hamas is a resistance group!
Stop blaming Hamas for what the Israeli state is doing in Gaza.
Did anyone blame the resistance groups for the collective punishment meted out to civilians by the Germans in WWII? Today's Hamas is the product of 40 years of occupation! If Hamas continue the fight after Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, then we can call them terrorists. No honest person can see it any other way.
Greenstock is absolutely right!

phil

Tomaso AT WHAT POINT DID YOU START LEARNING THE HISTORY OF THIS AREA ? Am I wrong or did the Arab attack start at day one of Israel,s existence in 1948 ? did they lose ?I will save you the research -they did. Ever since they have been "resisting"-that includes their efforts in 1967 and 1973 after which they needed to continue "resisting"-This sarcasm gives me no pleasure but if you wish to assert your view on history you really need to know what that history is .You are pouring scorn on the selfless and brave people who resisted the nazis to equate them with the beasts of hamas who are "resisting" with the lives of their unfortunate citizens .

I hope you do not disappear like the incredible matthewP.jim ,Ian et al who all run for the hills when I confront them with facts that they cannot refute .

AFS

mark, your "logic" (as enumerated in your post)is unfortunately facile. I think most others understood what I was suggesting, essentially that it is a matter of historical record that when 6 million Jews were murdered in the holocaust, much of the rest of the world did not make anywhere near the amount of protest that is being made about the Arabs in Gaza today. So what's different? If people like you say that they value human life equally, why is there the anomoly? Probably because IN FACT they DON'T rank Jewish life as highly as the lives of those, say, in Gaza (and speaking for yourself, only you can answer that question!). In fact, when they see Jews fighting back, it appears that they don't like it. Therefore, could one not reasonably draw the conclusion that possibly they prefer it when people fight against Jews than when Jews fight back. And don't talk to me about "proportionality" -- that's a newly developed fallacious argument that seems to have been concocted purely for use against Israel. So I don't accept it. I've probably been wasting my time trying to reason with you; in my experience with people with a bigoted point of view, since the view is by definition irrational, we are not dealing with a mind that knows how to value the rational. Thank you for your fine description of Auschwitz -- perhaps indeed you have been there -- but have you not realised that it is not I who oririnated the comparison to the holocaust but in fact all those who wish to denigrate Israel's right to defend itself.
[Over and out.]

JJS

Tomaso, hamas is a resitance group in the same way that an atom bomb is an insecticide.

mark

AFS - I explained my views and my arguments clearly and logically. In response, you start hurling ad hominem attacks and attributing things to me that I never said in order to make your own argument easier.
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In response to your last post (1610), I'm not sure how anybody could infer that from you, because that's not what you wrote at all. I'll paste your direct quote again (09JAN09 at 1634):
"the world really does hate it when Jews fight back. They prefer it when Jews meekly submit to gas chambers; can't stand it when they fight back"
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You explicitly state your view that the world prefers it when Jews meekly submit to the gas chambers. How am I misrepresenting what you originally said?
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As for what you are now arguing:
"when 6 million Jews were murdered in the holocaust, much of the rest of the world did not make anywhere near the amount of protest that is being made about the Arabs in Gaza today"
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That's patently false. The world didn't protest at the holocaust, didn't care about Jewish deaths? Over sixty years on, the holocaust is still a prevailing feature of television programming - just the other night there was a programme (on BBC 4 I think) about the life of Anne Frank. Many post-war conventions (e.g. the European Convention on Human Rights) were written as a direct response to the holocaust, with the aim of preventing it from re-occurring. To this day, some three generations later, Germany's national psyche is defined by guilt for the holocaust. If your argument were true, surely we would hear nothing about Jewish deaths in the holocaust and everything about the deaths of other groups in the concentration camps - Soviet POWs, Poles, Roma, the Disabled, Freemasons, Homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and Social Democrats. The fact that this is not the case shows that the world does indeed care about the deaths of Jews in the holocaust; indeed, it was (and still is) horrified by it. Why do you think the holocaust is still one of the main topics in GCSE and A'level history?
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Again, I don't disagree that Israel has a right to defend itself (I've stated this before). My problem is with the way that it defines that self-defence, and the way that it is going about achieving it. It defines self-defence as destroying Hamas. Fine, but Hamas wasn't attacking it from June 18-Nov 4 when Israel broke the cease-fire. Hamas stupidly responded with a volley of rockets, Israel claimed it was being attacked unprovoked, and hence the current situation. I think that this war will in fact make Israel less safe. Hamas will be less willing to sign up to similar cease-fires in future, and confidence-building measures necessary to secure a lasting peace have been blown out of the water by the return to conflict.
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But here are the facts: Israel broke the cease-fire (on Nov 4), Israel refused to agree just one term for the renewal of the ceasefire (that they end the blockade of Gaza), and after the rockets increased again *because of these aforementioned Israeli actions*, Israel chooses to bomb one of the most denseley populated corners of Earth, causing now almost 1000 deaths and thousands more injuries. Additionally, it's been widely reported that it was carefully planned over six months - the same six months when there was peace in Gaza and southern Israel. That's what my problem is with the Israeli actions.
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So, which part do you disagree with?

phil

Mark you write to much, Israel does not need cease fire it needs peace and so do the Palestinians -a cease fire assumes a resumption, let the hamas send Gilad Shalit back and stop the rockets -declare its agreement to a state of Israel living side by side in peace with it and see how quick it will all finish -anything else is just rhetoric and is costing lives .

Adam B.

mark, I'm sorry, but the world did NOT protest in the build up to the Holocaust, nor during it (when Jews were being killed at a rate of 10,000 a day). Even when detailed reports came out during the war, they were dismissed - a senior figure at the Foreign Office described the reports as coming from "hysterical Jews." I am fed up with people crying crocodile tears over dead Jews, but doing eveything they can to undermine living ones. there have been more protests about Gaza in the last two weeks than there were during the years 1033-45 about the Jews being butchered. very few people today know what Hamas really stands for (the extermination of all Jews) and their ignorance isn't an accident.

Adam B.

mark, look up the concept of a hudna.

Ma

Stephen Plosker thank you for explaining the situation so clearly but I would add something
It was not possible to extent the cease fire because the closing of the borders of Gaza did not end and the palestinian people were condemned to die slowly from hunger and illness ans the international community was not willing to do anything for them

M

Phil what about releasing more than 12138 palestinians in Israel jails stopping the settlements'expansion stopping building the seperation wall Hamas will not give anything if it does not receive anything

AFS

Reply to mark:
"So, which part do you disagree with?" All of it, mark, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. I've tried to explain but you just won't (can't?) listen. Which is why I said "over and out". Maybe you're just not ready yet to argue these ideas. So this is my last response to you. I think Adam B gave you a very intelligent answer (in fact, two) though I suspect neither will make the slightest difference because you're closed to the idea of changing your mind.

Adam B.

Sorry that should obviously read 1933-45.

phil

M I HAVE POSTED TO YOU ON "ON THE FACE" but I will say here again ,everything is possible when and if hamas decide Israel has a right to exist and they make peace .NOBODY CAN DENY ISRAEL ARE MORE POWERFUL MILITARILY THAN HAMAS ,IT IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEEDED TO BE FOR 60 YEARS .

Your people can make that unnecessary and live in peace and prosperity so easily -noone needs to die ,they only do because of the crazy mindset of hamas .My Lebanese and Palestinian friends and I sit down together in each others house and eat a meal without wanting to kill each other -is is perfectly possible you know ..Most Jewish people all over the world think just like me we want Peace and justice for all .

Zayn

The Real Ceasefire breakers: The myths destroyed once and for all in MIT Professor Nancy Kanwisher analytical report

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-kanwisher/reigniting-violence-how-d_b_155611.html

MathewP

Well done zayn!
There is very little response that Israel's supporters can make to the truth contained in the link you posted. Let the real ceasefire breakers be exposed - anything to add, Melanie?

mark

Adam B, yeah that's true and I shouldn't have suggested otherwise - because I do agree with you that the world should have cared more and done more to prevent the holocaust.

Adam B.

MatthewP, are you a pacifist? If not, you are a complete hypocrite.

M

Phill if I stole your house and then give you the smallest room and say to you : recognise that Ihave the right to exist in your house what would be your answer? be brave please to give me one but you know many jews in the mainly religeous people do not recognise that Israel has the right to exist try to understand it :

Adam B.

M, your analogy is bogus. The Jews didn't steal anything - this is popular myth making. If they "stole" it, there must have been an owner. Who was the owner, and in what sense (legally, morally etc?)Be very careful in your answer.

phil

M I WILL BE BRAVE -i AGREE WITH YOUR ANALOGY ,BUT IT IS NOT THE TRUTH IN THIS CASE AS YOU MUST WELL KNOW -The Jewish people have lived there for thousands of years ,when did the Palestinians become a people and live there ? They never needed to leave in 1948 apart from isolated instances of scary tactics which were not the policies of Israel -They were told to leave by the Arab commanders who were going to massacre the new Israelis and then bring them back -they were wrong and your people suffered and continue to do so .never taken in by other Arab states -why? ?????????????

Evennow they could live in peace alongside Israel with all the technology to help them flourish -it is just the blind hatred of the likes of hamas that is stopping them -hope that is brave enough for you M

phil

ADAM B as far as mathew p is concerned his word is certainly not his bond as he has proved continually -muchas promesos pero nada palabros:)

the caps lock inspectors

Phil - is your caps lock key malfunctioning?

colmcq

"I think that this war will in fact make Israel less safe."

I fear this too; already militant groups are firing rockets into northern Israel and Osama BL has popped out of the woodwork to voice his rage and stir up more hate among the arab world.

phil

he caps lock inspectors
January 14th, 2009 9:21pm

Phil - is your caps lock key malfunctioning? YES why?