Peace and hate

Shimon

You complain that Israel gets more criticism than other countries but if any other country had inflicted the sort of horrors now visited on Gaza, world leaders would have united in a massive outcry. You're lucky to be Israel.

Ian G

Shimon, you are a broken reed. (Look it up. It's in the Tenach). Darfur, Zimbabwe, Cambodia, Rwanda... off the top of my head. The horrors there were far worse, but no great outcry. Stalin's gulags, China, Turkey's destruction of the Arminians and invasion of Cyprus, the USA's support of Sinn Fein/IRA ... How long a list do you want?

Eoin

There was also a pro Israel rally in Dublin today and although we were small in number about 100-150 we made our support for Israel known in a democratic and peaceful manner.We were followed and harassed throughout by hate filled pro Palestinian supporters.With many elderly people in our rally as it was organised by a Christian group it made no difference to the Hamas supporters from attempting to break the police lines to attack us.Its this kind of fanaticism that Israel has faced since its creation.

Miv Tucker

As at 12.15am, 12.1.09, there was no sign of this rally's being reported on the BBC website.

Adam B.

Shimon, did you READ THE ARTICLE? Are you seriously comparing the fighting in Gaza to 4,000,000 (that's 4 MILLION in case you can't work it out) people being killed in Congo? Have you seen a single new story from Congo? Don't be so absurd.

Miv Tucker

It's red face time!

I just noticed the rally IS reported, and on the front page.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/78.../uk/ 7822656.stm

It's late, and I'm tired...what can I say?

Adam B.

Just to put that into context, the Congo has seen more violent deaths since 1997 than Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Darfur, Sri Lanka, the breakup of Yugoslavia, and every Arab-Israeli war since 1948 combined, with a couple million to spare. I have never seen a single TV report about it.

John Montgomery

Dear Melanie, you might have noticed that the BBC is giving a lot of air time to a Norwegian Doctor Mads Gilbert. Mads is actually a Marxist member of Norway's far left Red Party. He is on record as saying that 9/11 was justified. Obviously someone with a fair and balanced view as one would expect from the BBC

rippon

"The IDF, which planned to attack buildings and sites populated by hundreds of people, did not warn them in advance to leave, but intended to kill a great many of them, and succeeded." -- Haaretz

ethanII

Shimon--in 1982 Syria under Hafez al-Assad killed TWENTY THOUSAND civilians in Hama in one week, putting down an anti-Assad rebellion.

That's TWENTY TIMES the damage the Israelis have inflicted in three weeks. Never heard of this, Shimon? I guess that's maybe because there wasn't "a massive outcry" from world leaders.

Michael B

while being almost totally indifferent to "far bloodier conflicts that have been going on around the world, from the long-running genocide in Darfur, with its estimated 400,000 dead and at least 2.5 million refugees, to war in the Congo, with over 4 million dead or driven from their homes, to Chechnya, where an estimated 150,000-200,000 have died and up to a third of the population has been displaced at the hands of the Russian military"

Yep, rather telling, that.

"Old poison - new bottle."

Yep. But we're all suppose to pretend otherwise.

Paul Lewis

I'm with John (above)regarding the BBC. Is there nothing we can do to reign in the Islamists who, as in the FCO, are in (and out of) control there?

No prizes for guessing on what subject and side of the issue you are likely to have posts rejected on their laughably entitled 'Have Your Say' website.

I hope jews in the UK, overseas, and Israelis in general realise that they have far more support among ordinary folk than is allowed to be broadcast by our political parties and media (of all complexions and types).

shriber

Forget the big conflicts like the Congo or Fardur with its millions of dead people. Look at the many more small conflicts which have claimed the lives of many more people than Arab Israeli one.

Look at Chechnya with its: "Chechnya, where an estimated 150,000-200,000 have died and up to a third of the population has been displaced at the hands of the Russian military," or Sri Lanka or the Indonesia.

Shimon comes up with easy leftist explanations which always faults the Jewish State for whatever hatred people like him have for it.

He is an example of the problem.

Spencer R de Vere

Here in Australia we are getting lots media (particularly the government funded ABC & SBS TV) coverage that focusses on the Palestinian death-toll - as though the dead are all civilians. Any interviews with Israeli "spokespersons" are conducted in aggressive, sceptical terms, by journalists who frame questions STILL in wilful ignorance of the thousands of rockets fired on Irraelis by Hamas over the past years. Sickening !

andy c

There were 4000 people there according to the Met's note to the BBC.

The Gaza demonstration was 99% peaceful. About 20 thugs smashed in the starbucks and were arrested. Between 20 and 50 000 people turned up.

Notably, the Gaza demonstration included people from across the world. Flags from Ireland, Norway, Turkey among others were there.

I wonder who attended the pro Israeli demonstration, aside from Jews.

TomTom

The Congo does not have a highly-educated Western population - Israel does. The Far Left have a self-loathing for their own and a condescending contempt for Black Africans and Asians.

It is the Irrationality edged with Sentimentalism which rails and rants against Reason and Logic. It is The Left which has taken on the emotional incontinence of the Interwar Right of Germany and Italy

peter

The public wave of disgust, as you call it, against the tidal wave of lies about Israel, is as nothing compared to the disgust most people feel at the humanitarian nightmare Israel has visited on Palestine.

And your blogger Edgar Davidson is a total liar, as are you by extention.

I went on the Gaza rally. It was a humanitarian rally. There was nothing but dignity, compassion and insight from the speakers.

Give me ONE EXAMPLE of a speaker or a banner calling for the destruction of Israel.

EDDIE

It is heartening to see that people like Andy c have read Melanie’s BLOG. At least they have been exposed to the truth and something other than the BBC’s hate fest against Israel. There is little that can be done about the BBC, this non-representative Estate of the Realm with its multi billion budget, secure in the knowledge that everybody must pay for it under threat of prison. Like Dr Geobbels the news department have turned so many against a Jewish democratic state that is actually doing a Job for the rest of the world. Note the silence from Arab states. No outcry for Jihad when Israel bombs the arms supplies under some Mosques. Hamas is a toxic entity that threatens the peace of the Middle East and is supported by Iran. Its constitution advocates the death of Israel and all Jews everywhere. Andy c and other presumably support Hamas.

tommy

Whilst the world press that supplies the gullible with misinformation,- Humanitarian aid to Gaza continues....

Israel is conducting the latest operation while making sure that food, basic supplies and medical needs are constantly transferred into the Gaza Strip. Israel maintains ongoing contact with humanitarian agencies and enables the constant flow of goods and supplies into the strip.

Since the beginning of operation in Gaza, 652 truckloads of humanitarian aid (14,599 tons) have been transferred at the request of international organisations, the Palestinian Authority and various governments. Israel does not wish to see the humanitarian situation in the strip deteriorate. Preparations are underway to facilitate further shipments expected to arrive in the coming days.

11 January 2009

Around 100 trucks of aid are expected to enter Gaza today.

There are efforts to repair the electricity system in Gaza. Of the ten Israeli lines (which supplies around 70% of electricity), six are operative and four are being repaired. The Palestinian power station (20%) is running intermittently. Both Egyptian lines (10%) are functional.

There is no transfer of fuel into Gaza from Nahal Oz because the tanks on the Gaza side are full and Hamas is refusing to allow the tankers to distribute the fuel. This is a tactic we have seen in the past.

There is a good deal of coordination on humanitarian affairs between Israel and international organisations. COGAT representatives met with the ICRC yesterday to coordinate the movement of ambulances in Gaza. In recent days, Amos Gilad - in his position at COGAT - has met with UNWRA director Karen AbuZayd, UNSCO head Robert Serry and the ICRC's representative.

10 January 2009

Official updates have not yet been published. When they are we will update this space.

9 January 2009
About 70 trucks carrying food products and electrical equipment entered via the Kerem Shalom crossing. While most of the population in the Gaza Strip has electricity, work continues to restore additional electrical lines.

8 January 2009
Israel transferred 89 humanitarian aid trucks to Gaza via the Kerem Shalom Crossing, totalling 2,227 tons of food products, medical supplies and medication. 315,000 litres of fuel for the Gaza power station, alongside 143 tons of natural gas for domestic uses were transferred through the Nahal Oz terminal. 223 foreign nationals were permitted entry into Israel to leave Gaza, following requests from their respective governments.

7 January 2009
Throughout the day, the crossings facilitated the movement of 76 trucks loaded with 2,068 tons of humanitarian goods, comprised of donations from Jordan and Egypt and aid on behalf of UNRWA, the World Food Programme, the World Health Organisation and the International Committee of the Red Cross. Also, 482,000 litres of heavy duty diesel for the power plant, 92,000 litres of diesel for UN humanitarian operations and 43 tons of gas for domestic use were transferred to the Gaza Strip.

Ongoing activities are taking place to repair additional electrical lines. Nevertheless, most of the population in the Gaza Strip has electricity.

6 January 2009

57 trucks loaded with 1,312 tons of humanitarian aid entered the Gaza Strip via the Kerem Shalom crossing. The trucks contained medical supplies, flour, powdered milk, potatoes, barley and more, shipped to Gaza at the request of international organisations including UNRWA, the World Food Programme and the World Health Organisation, as well as international donations on behalf of the governments of Jordan, Egypt and Greece. Israel's humanitarian efforts, in conjunction with international organisations operating in the Gaza Strip, also include medical treatment in Israeli hospitals and infrastructure repairs in the Gaza Strip.

5 January 2009

49 trucks carrying 1,119 tons of food and medicines were transferred to Gaza via the Kerem Shalom crossing, including four with medical equipment and medicines. The aid was donated by international organisations - UNRWA, WFP and the ICRC - and by several countries, including Egypt and Jordan. In addition, 215,000 litres of diesel fuel for the power plant, 93,000 litres of diesel for the use of various UN organisations and 50 tons of cooking gas for domestic uses were transferred via the Nahal Oz terminal.

The evacuation of dual nationals is continuing.

2 January 2009
Israel transferred 64 trucks carrying 1,530 tons of humanitarian aid (including basic foodstuffs, medicines and medical supplies, tents and generators) via the Kerem Shalom crossing.

1 January 2009
60 trucks, with approximately 1,360 tons of humanitarian aid, medical supplies and medication were conveyed through Kerem Shalom cargo terminal.

31 December 2008
93 truckloads carrying some 2,500 tons of humanitarian aid, medical supplies and medications were transferred through the Kerem Shalom crossing. The World Food Programme notified the Israeli authorities that their food warehouses in the Gaza Strip are full, with a two-week supply, and they do not require further shipments.

The Nahal Oz fuel crossing remained closed due to continuing fire in the area.

Twelve Palestinians, including two children, were transferred to Israeli hospitals.

30 December 2008
93 truckloads carrying 2,366 tons of humanitarian supplies as well as five ambulances donated by Turkey were transferred to the Gaza Strip. A Red Cross plane arrived with medical supplies for the hospital operating room. The aid included food and medicine provided by the World Food Programme, UNRWA, UNICEF, the ICRC, the World Health Organisation, Doctors without Borders, and Care International, as well as donations from Egypt, Jordan, Qatar and Turkey.

29 December 2008
63 trucks with 1,545 tons of humanitarian goods (food, medicines and medical supplies) were delivered via the Kerem Shalom crossing. Most of the aid was provided by the International Red Cross, UNRWA, Doctors without Borders, and Care International. Five ambulances from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PRCS) in Ramallah passed through, at the request of the International Red Cross (ICRC). 1,000 units of blood donated by the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan were also delivered.

Erez crossing: Four people (patients and their escorts), and ten international staff, including a pregnant employee of the UN's Food and Agriculture Organisation and her Palestinian husband, left the Gaza Strip and crossed into Israel.

Salim Imtar

andy c there where Africans, Indians, Chinese, portuguese, Italians, Former Soviet union countries, Poland, Christians and peaceful Jewish people together demonstrating yesterday to support peace for Israeli and palestinian people not terrorists fanatics like Hamas

Rosemary

As Spencer commented, the media in Australia are equal partners to the BBC in slanted and misrepresentation of the real news.
I feel very helpless at times, but send out e-mails to many of my contacts about the truth and hope that some of it gets through.
My heart is with the Israeli's and it sickens me that people can be so blind as not to see, that they will be next in line if Israel is defeated.

It is time that all those who aid and abet Hamas and any of those other groups, whose avowed aims are destruction of Western civilization, are arrested,passports confiscated and charged with sedition/treason.
All those who rally, inciting others to violence and have their faces covered with their checkered dishcloths should be arrested and their photos taken.
In fact it is time to ban any face and head coverings that conceal the identity of the trouble makers.
Time also to deport any who do not have British/Australian/USA citizenship and revoke all citizenship of those who came in as illegals, many came claiming that their lives were at risk in their own countries and so they were as members of the Muslim Brotherhood and sought refuge and welfare in a countries that would let them plot in peace.

When they have bred up in sufficient numbers they will act on their threats, I HAVE NO DOUBTS AT ALL.

I am not a Jew so hope this is correct:
Israel:
yivarechecha Hashem v'yishmerecha

May God bless you and safeguard you.

Many came to our countries claiming their lives were at risk in Jordon, Syria, Egypt and elsewhere in the ME- So they were, as many were members of The Muslim Brotherhood and had to flee after trying to overthrow the the governments in their own particular hell hole.

If we had allowed this sort of support for the Nazis or the Japanese,whom so many of my family died fighting so that these dangerous fool could have the freedom of speech- they would either never have

Louise

Miv, the video on the BBC website of yesterday's Trafalgar Square rally is still there, but has been knocked off the front page.
In its late morning and very early afternoon bulletins Al Beeb reported quite fairly on the rally. There were, around midday, interviews with people attending, including the impressive Henry Grunwald.
Later, however, the BBC's dhimmitude took over (I suspect that alot of this has to do with which News editor is on duty at the time). Coverage of the rally was cut back to just one shot of a sea of Israeli flags (interspersed with the Union Jack, something conspicuously absent at the anti-Israel march and demo on Saturday) and equal time was given to a shot each of two small counter-protests across the road with placards denouncing "Zionism": one by the Neturei Karta and the other by people with the message "Judaism Yes, Zionism No, the State of Israel has to go".
By that time Al Beeb was far more interested in proving its dhimmitude by stirring up trouble against the Royal Family with a three-year old remark by Prince Harry and inviting various Muslim spokesman (including one who had railed against Israel days earlier) for their thoughts on the incident. (Not a whisper, of course, about the Hyde Park protesters' obscene racist chanting of "Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the Gas!" for Al Beeb is selective in what it considers racism.)
It was heart-warming to see a black gentleman, probably a practising Christian, caught in close-up on camera at yesterday's rally holding a blue-and-white flag.
And tellingly (please note, Andy C), the rally held not to support Israel blindly but to express solidarity with all victims of Hamas terror and to call for a true and lasting peace for both Israel and Gaza. It was attended by a cross-section of people of goodwill. Many more, I've no doubt, were cheering them on from home.

H Qalil

peter, those guys of Gaza rally was nothing but extremist, and some of them went to Starbucks cafe and attack? why? because they want to fight they don't believe peace, people like that who support terror and protest in the British streets or parks should be shame

Roy

Here in New Zealand too the leftist media are putting their biased view forward, mostly denigrating the Israeli actions. We have had demonstrations in Wellington defending Hamas and shouting insulting slogans against Israelis. They had an eight year old pushed to the front of the mob with most of these wearing the Arafat head gear and looking every bit as if they had just disembarked from the Middle East. An Anglican priest was interviewed, who not surprisingly, said a few ingratiating words for the terrorist course. All mind-bendingly repugnant.

Robbit

Shimon, if after attempting Welsh devolution the elected Welsh representatives then staged a violent and murderous coup-de-etat against their own fellow citizens and then lanuched a interminable campaign (armed and funded by a some other power - say the French) of firing rockets into England and sending terrorists in to murder anyone in sight the English would have had to send in forces to completely route them out, whatever the cost. End of matter.

James Cartwright

If we're going to play a numbers game then presumably we should be utterly outraged that the Holocaust gets a massive amount more coverage thatn Stalin's and Mao's numerically greater enormities (not to mention the hugely greater (numerically) enormity of the abortion Holocaust). I do hope that the posters here are consistent and ask for similarly proportionate coverage of these events. Once they do it will be time to take Prof. Karsh's protests more seriously. Until then it looks like his pronouncements (and those of posters here) are made in bad faith.

mike in java

It is about time the Met arrested these people - they are anarchists for sure

Raymond Joseph Douglas

Have to say, i haven't seen the BBC report this pro-Israel rally on there mainstream news. Am I wrong about this?

phil

andy c displays loyalty at least .loyalty to lies and hate -everyone with tv could see that saturdays "protest" was violent and hate filled as opposed to the one in support of Israel and peace.He cannot even see that he is given a voice here because we are democratic peace loving people of all faiths ,what on earth is he ?

sean

James Cartwright:

80-90% of occupied Europe's Jews were killed. What percentage of Gazans, Chinese & Russians were killed?

Sean

BTW - Shimon and Andy C are the same person. He clearly likes drum and bass as much as he dislikes Jews! (Does he know that Shimon is Jewish?)

logdon

So, on Today this morning the oleaginous Keith Vaz was invited to offer his views on Prince Harry's 'Paki' comment which seems to be boiling up in the usual synthetic way these things do into 'Pakigate'. The fact that this is three year old news is neither here nor there, he had to stick his twopenneth in. Now call me old fashioned but when was a twice disgraced Labour chancer given the credentials to make mischief with our Royal Family over the use of one word? It seems that the BBC decided in arbitrary manner that because he is a Muslim he'd do as the talking head. In contrast, which brings me in circular fashion to my point, the chaos, antisemitic insult, and physical aggression shown on the streets of London (and many other European capitals) is ignored by the man with the European brief and the BBC whose republican sympathies simmer just about below the surface. The derogatory epithets and violence hurled at Israel and Jews, was truly appalling and Europe should hang it's head in shame that the old prejudice is rearing it's hydra head once more. I say hydra because the Jew hating fascists are now a toxic combination of the far left and Muslims, joined in an unholy alliance of mutual hatred of the status quo and the British State. Obviously our Royals represent the symbolic pinnacle of this establishment and are the easy targets whilst the so called upholders of our PC race hate law ignore the gross prejudice exploding in our cities. We're all Hamas now is the pathetic chant from these hypocrites living comfortable lives in the west as if they had any idea of what life is like in the barbaric cauldron of the Middle East where even crucifixion is now being revived, as if video recorded beheadings were not enough. Can't our cultural relativists wake up to the massive disparity? On the one hand a Royal who actually does his bit and serves in our Army commits a verbal faux pas and every spart and Islamist feels free to critisise. On the other those same Islamists and sparts also feel free to defend a group whose raison detre is 'love of death' in the most revolting manner devised by man. And they whine of 'proportionality'?

Digenis

By all means let's talk about the Congo, or the Bubonic plague, or the price of real estate on the dark side of the moon, but let's stay away from Israel's war crimes because it's so unfair to the Jews. Red herring, anyone?

Digenis

Why, Tommy, should humanitarian aid to Gaza be even necessary? The right to trade openly and freely with the rest of the world is all they need.

beloved

Adam B wrote: "Just to put that into context, the Congo has seen more violent deaths since 1997 than Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Darfur, Sri Lanka, the breakup of Yugoslavia, and every Arab-Israeli war since 1948 combined, with a couple million to spare. I have never seen a single TV report about it."

beloved responds: good stats to remember. Here's another one. There have been more homicides in Chicago, Illinois, USA than US military deaths in Iraq.

Grumpy the Truthful

Catch a load of this - hard to argue with this stream of logic -

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=nul

beloved

addendum to last post: --for the same period.

N. Simon

It was good to see so many Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, a few Zoroastrians and some Muslims at the pro-Israel peace rally.

What the less enlightened don't want to know is that around the world, non-Muslims are the targets of Islamic hatred and persecution.

Miranda Rose Smith

Will the BBC and the other media outlets, who so willingly and cheerfully lie about Israel, willingly and cheerfully lie about their own countries when the Islamofascists demand it?

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Shimon: I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you meant your posting to be funny. Dear Ian G: You forgot Tibet.

James Cartwright

"80-90% of occupied Europe's Jews were killed. What percentage of Gazans, Chinese & Russians were killed?"
Oh - it's about percentages. So if everyone in Wales is wiped out by a dictator that's more important than 20 million Russians? Don't think so. Still, if you were right (which you clearly are not) about percentages then the Armenian genocide deserves a massive amount more coverage than it hitherto has received.
I see no reason why the moderator should not publish these fairly uncontentious comments.

Robbit

Yes, Miranda they (the BBC &c)most certainly will misrepresent, disemble and lie and are in effect doing so already... when it suits them and does not reflect badly on Labour, of course.

Carl

The IDF has been caught out with another lie - it's been proven that they are using white phosphorous against civilians.

Richard Buckley

I can't help feeling that the criticism of Israel is in a very curious way an example of respect for Israel. No-one expects better than indiscriminate killing from Hamas whereas it is widely assumed that in some way Israel is expected to 'know better'. I am reminded of something once said by Golda Meir - "We can forgive you for killing our children but we cannot forgive you for forcing us to kill yours".

Michael

Once again, there is NO moral high ground for either side to claim.

None at all.

And it is pathetic to even think otherwise.

Elva Haroumi

N.Simon thank you, it is more dangerous to be Muslim then anyone else right now, Islamic extremist think they have right to hate liberal Muslims, and they don't consider one of them, they don't like Muslims who get on with life, who are not extremist, and who are peaceful

andy c

Phil - the vast majority of people come here to be argumentative - you seem to come here to be insulting.

Answer the points instead of pouring scorn.

RUTH

This is lovely.

According to The Times on line, Israel is now using phosphorous bombs in a deliberate move to burn Palestinians.

War Crime? Heavens no...

RUTH

Miranda,

What lie has the BBC told about Israel? Please be more specific.

iaincats

I do not like to see anyone be injured, maimed or killed, especially children. No right thinking person can be happy at what is happening in Gaza. However, I believe Israel is only partially to blame; those who have planned and carried out suicide attacks on Jews over many years, rocket attacks etc. etc. must take their share of the responsibility.

Hugh O'Donnell, MSP, stood in the Scottish Parliament on Thurday and declared "the Palestinian people have paid a dear price for European guilt over what happenended to European Jews," before going on to make a rabble rousing speech.

Will he take his share of the blame for the attacks on Police in Edinburgh and London at the week end?

phil

Rosemary I think the translation goes something like this -May the LORD Bless you and Keep you

May the LORD make His Face to shine upon you and be Gracious unto you

May the LORD lift up His Countenance upon you and give you Peace. Numbers 6:24 AMEN!!!

and mine is that it applies to you and so many good souls like you .

phil

andy c I am pleased that you have enough feeling to be insultcd -you are not argumentative because your,s is not a discussion it is just plain lies and hate and I am sure 99 per cent of us know that. Your friend ruth is doing the same -we can read it any time at www.goebbelslies .org

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Carl: I don't know if that story about the white phosphorus is true or not, but seriously, its a war. The civilians are mixed in with combatants. Do you want the I.D.F. to use pepper spray?

Carl

Miranda RS - a war? Shelling civilians is a crime, not an act of war. The Israeli attack is utterly inappropriate and is rightly condemened by almost all civilised countries in the world. Actually, scratch the almost. What I want is for the IDF to cease all operations and withdraw immediately, but let's not forget that elections are coming, so what is a little more bloodletting in the advancement of political careers? Shame on them.

Tony

It was interesting to see that the BBC gave nearly 5 minutes to the pro-Hamas 'hatefest' and only 45 seconds to the Israeli protest and even then, showed Zionists' hatred for Israeli 'war crimes' more than those who were pro-Israel.
Also, I see Sky is now calling Hamas 'militants' whereas the entire world outside of Islam has called them terrorists, including the anit-Israel United Nations.
More hypocrisy and double-dealing from the liberal wimps.
However, I am pleasantly surprised by the support for Israel and the number of people who are beginning to see the light.

dave batista

I like how everyone's bringing up the Congo as a conflict no-one's heard about. This is of course a conflict that was the subject of a book selected by Richard and Judy's bookclub (Blood River). So not all that obscure at all then.

The difference between Congo and Israel/Hamas is that Congo's an incredibly dangerous place few white westerners dare visit, while the press can cover this war after a comfortable three hour flight from London, they can stand on a hill overlooking the combat zone without being in all that much danger and can return to their hotels for pleasant drinks in the evening. And you get to wear a flack jacket and look like Action Man on the six o clock news.

I don't know what you guys want? No coverage at all? Would that really be better? It's the biggest story in the world at the moment.

Dr. Oded Szpiro

by the way,
In friday's JC there is also a descriptive article, by Denis McShane MP, about the mad wishes of Hamas, starting with their murderous chgarter.

I wonder if the Spectator will print such an article, it being pro Israel safe existance?!

I will ask him to put his article forward to the general press for general UK consumption and knowledge.

O.S.

EC

Logdon @10:40

I don't want to detract from the general thrust of your post but I thought that Keith Vaz and his wife Maria Fernandes are both Catholics - coming from Goa - formerly 'Portguese.'

I now await that QI moment when the klaxon and bells go off and somebody informs me that informed that this is a popular misconception.

You're dead right in your opinion of KV being a shifty hypocrite.

Harry's chum actually WAS from Pakistan. The usage of "Paki" was not preceded by any expletive so how could it it be offensive?

The press should lay off Harry and start to act like journalists by actually putting some hard questions to our Dear Leader and his venal gang.

Augustus

Professor Carl Brockelmann in his History of the Islamic Peoples(1948), after discussing
the Five Pillars of Islam, writes: "Besides these five canonical duties, which are regarded as inviolable, the Muslim's entire private and public life is encompassed by a multiple chain of prescriptions, the observation of which is likewise part of the religion...

"The Muslim may show only hostility to infidels when encountered: war against them is a religious duty. Idol worshippers must always be attacked without more ado. Jews and Christians, however, only after they have ignored a summons, made three times, to accept Islam. After defeat, the men are to be killed, women and children to be sold into slavery. Whoever is killed in a Holy War is sure of paradise as a martyr. In addition, it is permitted to conclude treaties with Jews and Christians, following the example of the Prophet... But the obligation of the Holy War is merely postponed by such contracts, not annulled...

"A child's legitimacy does not depend on the position of the mother, but only on its recognition of the father...

"The penal code of Islam has remained on a rather primitive level and only marks a slight advance over the ancient pagan concepts of law... Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand, in case of relapse by additional maiming. Adultery is punished by a hundred strokes
of a lash, but if an infidel seduces a Muslim woman, he is subject to the death penalty. Blasphemy with respect to God, the Prophet, and his predecessors is punishable by death, as is defection from Islam (apostasy), if the culprit persists in his disbelief."

All these points are still true today; from the life-pervaiding nature of Sharia law to Jihad against infidels, and from the exultation of martyrdom to the tempory nature of truces. Brockelmann knew that these issues were not open to debate. But then again, he lived in a very different era, when empirical facts, no matter how ugly or unpleasant, were never clouded or ignored simply to make people feel good about themselves and others.

logdon

By moderating me at every opportunity you join the fascists. Here's Melanie's quote and you fall into the self same trap on her very own blog.

"Sanitising of Islamic fascism in which the British media and much of its intellectual class are now drowning."

Yet yesterday a poster advocating the dstruction of Israel and death to Jews was deemed acceptable until I protested. What planet are you guys on?

Alan Kenny

Why did Israel reject the peace deal which Hamas signed up to?

Pete Hoskin

logdon: the comment yesterday shouldn't have got though in the first place, and we removed it as soon as you flagged it up. There was no intent in its appearance.

Sometimes comments don't get through because of technical problems. If you suspect that's the case - or if you feel you've been unfairly moderated - you can always e-mail me on phoskin @ spectator.co.uk and I'll try and sort it out.

steve

Tony: Haaretz also refers to them as militants so the universality you imply does not exist. Could I just ask the Israel supporters on here whether any of you have any doubts about the course of action being followed? There have been media reports that Ehud Barak was not so keen on the offensive. There does not appear to be a clear exit strategy just like there wasn't in Lebanon in 2006. Perhaps there could be some reflection on the part of Melanie as to whether this benefits Israel instead of just blindly following along.

straightchris

I was there infrony of the Israeli embassy Thurs, Friday.
I missed Saturday because I was looking after Hanna Braun a long time Jewish pro-Palestinian activist of 81 years old.
I was at the embassy on Saturday where there was talk by the organizers who keep the 'round the clock vigil on the embassy that the march had been hijacked by "anarchists" who do not represent the majority view.
Melanie Phillips lies again.

Read or listen to this and have a nice day:

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/8/former_amb_martin_indyk_vs_author

stanley Jerusalem

Alan Kenny
January 12th, 2009 3:54pm

Why did Israel reject the peace deal which Hamas signed up to?

Have we been reading Lewis Carrol's Alice Through the Looking Glass then?

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Alan Kenny, wich peace deal? what kind of tobacco you are smoking?

Alan Kenny

Have you not been reading the Arab Peace Plan?

Alan Kenny

aka The Riyadh Initiative, google it

stanley Jerusalem

Alan Kenny
January 12th, 2009 4:43pm

Have you not been reading the Arab Peace Plan?

OH! THAT piece plan!
That's Mel Brook's film script.
A little piece of Poland;
A little piece of France;
A little piece of Belgium.....
Dream on sunshine in your parallel universe.

Alan Kenny

The one where 22 Arab states promised recognition of Israel, guaranteed peace and wanted to normalise relations with Israel.

Why don't Israel want peace?

Pat Viliors

Hey Pete, Andy C and the like, before continuing to spew your anti-Israel diatribe, take a look at what quoted Arab spokesmen think of the whole affair: http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=17975

Louise

Oded, if the BBC website (the most viewed in the world) and the media in general told the truth about the brutal, antisemitic, Jihadist Hamas Charter, as Denis McShane has done in the JC, many more people would realise that Israel is not quite the demon that the media has brainwashed them into believing it is.

Rosemary, Australia's admirable former Prime Minister, John Howard, was prudent to restrict the intake of asylum seekers. I know this sounds callous, but it is essential that Australia realises that if it takes in hordes of immigrants from Islamic countries, as Europe has, it will be turning "The Lucky Country" into a tinderbox. Spread the word of what is happening in Europe as the result of such unrestricted largescale immigration.

phil

lan kenny is this the one you mean .

The Arab Peace Initiative (Arabic Language: مبادرة السلام العربية) is a comprehensive peace initiative first proposed in 2002 at the Beirut Summit of the Arab League by then-Crown Prince, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, and re-endorsed at the Riyadh Summit in 2007.[1] The initiative attempts to end the Arab-Israeli conflict, to normalize relations between the entire Arab region and Israel, in exchange for a complete withdrawal from the occupied territories and a "just settlement" of the Palestinian refugee crisis.[1] It is supported by large numbers of policy makers and commentators throughout the world, with favorable comments made by the leaders of over sixty countries including American President George W. Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.[1] However, within Palestine itself the Sunni Islamist political party Hamas, the elected government of the Palestinian territories, is deeply divided, with its officials making both highly supportive and highly negative statements.[2][1] Shiite political party Hezbollah rejects the initiative.

DO I NEED TO EMPHASISE WHO REJECTED IT ?

The Kensington Kuffir

straightchris: Those pesky extremists, eh? They always show up when you're trying to make a peaceful, moderate point, don't they..?

But exactly who did the organisers of the Saturday march think would be attracted to such an event? The local mosque's oecumenical affairs debating team?

From my personal experience on Saturday, there was around 4-500 people who you'd happily dismiss as 'anarchists', but who were determined for a confrontation. I'm not clear if they were fully-paid-up members of the various anti-war and anti-Israel groups parading their presumed moral superiority that day, but they certainly had the pre-printed 'Gaza = holocaust' posters, and, if they were happy to improvise onthat theme, who would be surprised? 'Israel'/'Zionists' = 'Nazis', 'death to Israel' etc seems consistent with the officially-endorsed lines, yet this doesn't strike me as a 'moderate' position.

But perhaps that was OK, and it was just the criminal damage to property that upset you?

Perhaps the organisers could have dealt a fair blow to this 'anarchist' fringe, as well as showing some regard for us local residents, by tidying up afterwards.

Bimbo

Just let me get this straight ... anyone who disagrees with the way Israel is going about it's business a) is a fascist supporter of Hamas terrorism and b) is a fascist anti semite bent on the destruction of Israel? In the same way, I presume, that anyone who disagrees with what Gordon Brown's doing wants to see more unemployment and a deeper recession. It is possible, if you're (for example) English and not directly a part of this conflict, to see crimes committed by both sides in this. Stop labelling people who disagree with you. It's cheap. And it indicates how little confidence you have in your beliefs.

charles soper

Ruth, one lie the BBC has retailed is one about the UN truck drivers being shelled by Israeli tanks. The IDF has denied it and the hospital (Israeli) where they were treated reports rifle bullets. I suspect the forensics will trace them back to Hamas.
By the way, great rally yesterday, excellent atmosphere, solid speeches and peaceable - apart from the childish heckling.
Curiously, the Yard reported only 4k, and LBC only 2k - there seemed far more than that to me- 10-15k seems about right (although the organisers twice claimed 35 which did seem excessive).
Does appeasement even extend to crowd stats?

Towncar

I see the lefties continue to wail and posture about 'inappropriate' and 'disproportionate' Israeli operations in Gaza. Gaza is a mere skirmish, a donnybrook, a fistfight..compared to what is coming if the jihad, any pretenders to and supporters of are not crushed. Perhaps they need a hanky?

JONNY

'told the truth about the brutal, antisemitic, Jihadist Hamas Charter, as Denis McShane has done in the JC'

Thanks Louise. You're breaking new ground.
I always imagined the time had to come sometime or other when by the law of averages, Denise Mcshane had to tell the truth. If only once.

Only problem it turns out to be just another highly tilted basket of spin.

phil

towncar-- would like to point appropo nada something about proportionality -try 1948 when 50 million were lined up against 3 million all with the intention of annihilation of Israel -we never heard about proportion then did we -PLEASE FEEL FREE TO QUOTE THIS ON ANY BLOG .

davidka

Hamas' only gains occur when Paestinians suffer. So it deliberately oppresses, enslaves and victimises its own palestinian people because they know only too well that western media will lap it up and blame Israel.
Hammas has no respect for non Muslim human life and the lives of their own are despatched easily under the mantle of religious martyrdom.
By applauding Hammas the western media are enabling and encouraging the slaughter of more expendible palestinians at the hands of Hammas .
they are also encouraging western dupes to lose all sense of moral values.
from the NYT Published: January 8, 2009
GAZA CITY — The emergency room in Shifa Hospital is often a place of gore and despair. On Thursday, it was also a lesson in the way ordinary people are squeezed between suicidal fighters and a military behemoth.

Dr. Awni al-Jaru, 37, a surgeon at the hospital, rushed in from his home here, dressed in his scrubs. But he came not to work. His head was bleeding, and his daughter’s jaw was broken.

He said Hamas militants next to his apartment building had fired mortar and rocket rounds. Israel fired back with force, and his apartment was hit. His wife, Albina, originally from Ukraine, and his 1-year-old son were killed.

“My son has been turned into pieces,” he cried. “My wife was cut in half. I had to leave her body at home.” Because Albina was a foreigner, she could have left Gaza with her children. But, Dr. Jaru lamented, she would not leave him behind.

A car arrived with more patients. One was a 21-year-old man with shrapnel in his left leg who demanded quick treatment. He turned out to be a militant with Islamic Jihad. He was smiling a big smile.

“Hurry, I must get back so I can keep fighting,” he told the doctors.

He was told that there were more serious cases than his, that he needed to wait. But he insisted. “We are fighting the Israelis,” he said. “When we fire we run, but they hit back so fast. We run into the houses to get away.” He continued smiling.

“Why are you so happy?” this reporter asked. “Look around you.”

A girl who looked about 18 screamed as a surgeon removed shrapnel from her leg. An elderly man was soaked in blood. A baby a few weeks old and slightly wounded looked around helplessly. A man lay with parts of his brain coming out. His family wailed at his side.

“Don’t you see that these people are hurting?” the militant was asked.

“But I am from the people, too,” he said, his smile incandescent. “They lost their loved ones as martyrs. They should be happy. I want to be a martyr, too.”

Alan Kenny

Nobody got an answer as to why Israel doesn't want peace?

Dixon

andy c says it was a vast international spectrum protesting against Israel and asks who was at the pro Israel rally, "apart from Jews".

Leaving aside the obvious racism of this remark, I think it reveals much about the mind-set of people like him: the real questions are, how many at the anti-Israel riot were actually authentic citizens of this country? In what way did all these OTHER nationalities represent OUR community?

On the other hand, I would imagine the pro-Israel rally was pretty much comprised of legitimate representatives of the British public. Jewish or otherwise.

Gareth

Hamas has 15000 "fighters" out of a population of 1.5m - 1% of the people. Given that anyone with a kalashnikov or a molotov cocktail is an asset in urban fighting, why has Hamas recruited only 1% of the population? I suspect it's because the majority would rather fight Hamas than Israel.

Straydingo

James Cartwright,

There is a massive difference with the actions of Stalin vs Hitler.

The Nazis were trying to systematic exterminate the Jewish race and Stalin was simply a Communist doing what all Communist do and crush/oppress anyone with thoughts of freedom and liberty (Cambodia, China, Vietnam, Cuba etc) no matter what their colour or creed.

mary

Human rights watch affirms that the Israeli army is using forbidden weapons in Gaza and this is clear from the atrocity of the injuries. The international court condemned the building of the seperation wall by Israel and Israel have always ignored this. The security coucil ordered Israel to retrieve back to its borders of 1967, in a response it is today accelerating the building of settlements in The West Bank. 917 dead and 4300 injured so far in the present Gaza war after two years and a half of total closing of boders in Gaza that has totally destructed the economy of the strip and brought the death to many people. 11700 palestinians in the Israeli jails, 128 women and 310 children detained in unhuman conditions against Geneva conventions and exposed to cruel torture. Racism against Israeli civilians who are arabs and not jews is increasing and Israel defines itself as a state for jews only which is against the very elementary human rights .Is this what you called Peace?

Straydingo

Grumpy the Truthful,

Thanks for the link to this video - Wafa Sultan is the Arab version of Melanie Philips - I have seen many of her interviews on the web but never seen her on the BBC or any other MSM here in the UK - I wonder why :)

Straydingo

Alan Kenny, Hamas also rejected the deal

mary

I can see taha many of the comments try to justify what happening in Gaza by other crimes committed in the human history . We as muslims condemn all these atrocities as well as we condemn the nazi killing of jews during the second world war. Regardin what did the sirian president in Hama it is undoubtly a crime but you do not maybe know that his dictatorial regime was supported by the west as well as the majority of the dictatorial regimes of the arab world

Augustus

Mark Steyn wrote in his National Review article: "In Toronto anti-Israel demonsratators yell "You are the brothers of pigs!" and a protester complains to his interviewer that "Hitler didn't do a good job". In Fort Lauderdale Palestinian supporters sneer at Jews, "You need a big oven, that's what you need!" In Amsterdam the crowd shouts, "Hamas! Hamas! Jews to the gas!"

Now why do people shout such things? Where does all this hot-headed hatred come from? We know that there are many more Muslims in the West than a generation ago, but should the existence of more Muslim immigrants lead specifically to such behaviour? Does it make sense that more Muslims equals more Nazi-style abuse against Jews? Is that the answer? One thing is certainly apparent; there are more Muslims now who wish the Jews a second Holocaust.

When the ex-mayor of Amsterdam, Ed van Thijn was asked why hundreds of Maroccan youths went about the centre of Utrecht shouting "Hamas! Hamas! The Jews to the gas!" his answer was: "You see, that's globalization for you. Elements of world conflicts you see back on the streets of Holland." A sober and professional answer, but isn't it a strange one? What would he say if youths on the same streets had shouted "lets drive all the Muslims into the sea!"? Would he still say that is globalization? So long as Muslims refuse to contain their anti-Semitism we will continue to see an increasing spectacle of their brand of anti-Semitism, anti-Judaism, often hidden behind anti-Israelism. That is the truth that multiculturalism has given us.

ahad ha'amoratsim

"The security coucil ordered Israel to retrieve back to its borders of 1967," Not in Security Counsel Resolution 242 they didn't. 242 makes it clear that Israel is not required to withdraw from a single centimeter until there is a durable peace with recognized and secure borders -- something the Palestinians have never offered Israel. The area for withdrawal is to be determined by negotiation, as are the borders. Even the vaunted Arab peace initiative calls for total withdrawal first, peace later.

Lee Laurie

A few people on this blog have mentioned Harrys use of the word 'Paki'.
The irony of this being reported in Murdochs rag 'The News of the World' is that newspapers in Australia owned by the Dirty Digger routinely use the word 'Pom' to describe anyone of English descent.
Despite the fact that over 60% of complaints made to the New South Wales race relations authorities are about the use of this word the Australian media AND the British media, for that matter, continue to use it as if the English in Australia do not mind.
Get hold of the fact........lots do care and find its use obnoxious !

Dave M

Mary here are some answers to your questions:

"Israel defines itself as a state for jews only which is against the very elementary human rights..."

Nope, Israel believes Jerusalem should be primarily a Jewish capital in the same way Tokyo is a Japanese capital. Or the same way Madrid is a Spanish capital. If the Romans also recognised Jerusalem was a Jewish Capital and, thereby, granted Jews autonomy, why do people today fail to acknowledge Jerusalem is as much the heritage of Jews, as Athens is to Greeks?

"The international court condemned the building of the seperation wall by Israel and Israel have always ignored this."

The wall is in order to prevent fanatics carrying out suicide bombings and thereby blowing people in cafes or buses into pieces. It's a drastic measure brought about by equally drastic circumstances.

"The security coucil ordered Israel to retrieve back to its borders of 1967..."

Well, to be honest, thus far. nobody ever answered my question as to why Israel's borders are such an issue with people. By that I mean, both North and South America today are populated by non indigenous peoples. The indigenous Indians only survive in small numbers as we all know. In Australia, we Brits arrived as convicts at the expense of the Aboriginees. Yet, Jews ARE the indigenous people of Palestine. They've been there for centuries already. All they ask for is a tiny piece of land to call Israel proper, not the restoration of the 1000 B.C. Empire.

hadrian

I have been in London when there's been anti-capitalist demonstrations and half the city had to be boarded up; these self styled eco warriors leave nothing but debris and wreckage in their trail- utter rabble, most of them, with only a few sincere exceptions. At such times it makes one recoil from any sort of mass rally. However it restores one's faith in the decency of civilised human beings to see such a rally as the pro-Israeli one. Just wished I'd been down there to join them, even if it was the Lord's Day.
The idea that the Jewish religion as exprsessed in the Old Testament inculcates hatred for Arabs is utterly absurd. The O.T. indeed looks forward to a day when the great mass of gentiles will willingly acknowledge Jehovah as Lord and Saviour. It is certainly not the Jews who are 'racist' but their fanatical moslem neghbours who plan only for genocide- remember the outburst of the presidential nutcase in Iran?!

MM

Please do not judge Jews by the nonsense written here. There are many outraged articles in the Israeli press (see Gideon Levy in Haaretz). Those that seek to defend the indefensible here via unquestioning and constant 100% support for whatever Israel's current misguided, election crazed, leaders do only hurt the moral claim Israel justifiably has to live in peace and be accepted by its neighbours.

Adam B.

mary, not true. Syria was not supported by the West, it was a client state of the Soviet Union at the time, the same Soviet Union beloved of Socialist Worker, CND, the Communist Party of Great Britain, the Unions, all the fellow travellers of Hamas here in the West.

Adam B.

mary, those in Israeli jails are not held in the conditions you describe. How ridiculous, you moan about the conditions which are better than in any prison between Casablanca and Karachi. That's called hypocrisy.

Adam B.

straightchris, you give succour to a genocidal racist anti-semitic terror group. How proud you must be. And why mention that your "friend" is Jewish? How is that relevant, except to say, look I've found a Jew who's different! Sickening.

James Cartwright

Straydingo
The context of these remarks was that certain people were accusing those who focussed on Israeli crimes of a double-standard, claiming that given there are other ,greater (numerically) crimes being carried out in other parts of the world that are largely ignored it is unfair to focus on Israel's killings. I pointed out the the Holocaust is given massively more attention than other numerically greater crimes. The fact that Stalin or Mao wiped out huge amounts of people (of the wrong class etc.) INCLUDING ethnic minorities qua ethnic minorities is highly relevant. Nor, incidentally, is it obvious why that necessarily merits less attention that the Holocaust (btw even by your arbitrary rule the Armenians should get a huge amount more coverage than they do - given the amount the Holocaust gets).
The point is you can't have it both ways (trying to do so trivialises the very serious matters under discussion).

Joe Strummer

The residents of Gaza after 9/11 were dancing in the streets and handing out sweets to local children in a grisly celebration of that awful and horrific carnage. Karma now seems to be paying these same folk a visit.

Dixon

mary
January 12th, 2009 8:20pm
"Human rights watch..." HOLD IT! Don't you know the laughably titled "Human Rights Watch" is an organisation privately funded by George Soros...thew billionaire who caused "Black Wednesday". Its purpose is to manipulate markets in the interest of his increased profits.

KateA

rippon: "The IDF, which planned to attack buildings and sites populated by hundreds of people, did not warn them in advance to leave, but intended to kill a great many of them, and succeeded." -- Haaretz??

News item or 'talk back'? Haaretz certainly attracts an inordinate number of Jew-haters and accusers. A link is required if this to be taken seriously.

david lynn

mary: We as muslims condemn all these atrocities.

Come show us where an example of such condemnation.

david lynn

There's no point talking reason to andy c or ruth, - they have made up their mind long before this conflict and solid logic wont won't do the job. But perhaps crooked logic will. Like this: Millions of civilians were slaughtered by most members of UN. Would Israel be accepted as a member if it was behaving differently?

EthanII

To Mary--
NO, you misunderstand what the point is here. You see, on the very FIRST entry to this thread, a poster claimed the following:
"if any other country had inflicted the sort of horrors now visited on Gaza, world leaders would have united in a massive outcry. You are lucky to be Israel."

Go back and look--the very first entry on this thread.

That is a false claim. It is because of THAT preposterous claim that people are adducing other examples where there WAS no outcry. Hence the adducing of the massacre of TWENTY TIMES the number of total dead in Gaza (which are mostly Hamas soldiers anyway) by Hafez al-Assad in 1982, a massacre (almost all civilians) done in one week. And there was NO "world leaders united in a massive outcry."

On the contrary, just 2 years after a civilian death toll TWENTY TIMES that of Gaza if not more (since more than half the causalties in Gaza are Hamas fighters), the government of Syria was elected a member of the UN HUMAN RIGHTS Commission! Can you imagine? 1984-1986!
So much for "massive outcry from world leaders!"
Also: Syria was an elected member of the UNHRC again in 1992 (anniversary of the slaughter)-1994; and 2001-2003.

As a Palestinian poet wrote: We are unlucky to have you Jews as an enemy because you are militarily powerful, but we are lucky to have you as an enemy because whenever you are involved in something the issue is always YOU, not us. If it wasn't YOU, NO ONE would care about us.

So. The point to the author of the first posting on this thread is: it is not "lucky" but rather it is unlucky to be Israel because Israel is subjected to an enormous double standard not imposed on any other country.
No one cares that Hamas is using human shields, that it is using mosques as munition-storage warehouses (that is now proven), or that it has booby-trapped schools in the hope of creating a telegenic incident for the world press (that is proven too). No. It's always: Jews, Jews, Jews.
Perhaps now, Mary, you understand where this thread started and why it is going the way it is going with references to Syria, and Russia in Cechnya etc.
But you know, Mary...I doubt that you will understand. Because you don't want to.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Carl: A civilized human being-or country-is a pro-Israel human being-or country. Hamas has been shelling civilians in Southern Israel for years and now the Israelis are fighting back. Hamas fires from populated areas, packs buildings with civilians, booby traps the buildings, fires from them PRECISELY because they know the Israelis do their best to avoid killing civilians. I'd like to see you show the decency and restraint that the Israelis have consistantly shown if the Arabs were firing Kassams at you. I'd like to see you make the effort they do to avoid killing civilians.

Mike

Dave M. 'All they ask for is a tiny piece of land to call Israel proper'.......all well and good, but not by the ethnic cleansing of those already there. All the Palestinians ask for is a return of their land.....not all of it.....just a little bit....known as the West Bank! As Sharon decreed in his take-it-or-leave-it deal: The Palestinians can have a state on 42% of the 80% of the 22% of 100% of their original homeland'....some deal! The Wall is there to protect the settler movement while they annex (steal) ever more of the Palestinian homeland. Finally, I find you analogies with various other parts of the world.......juvenile. 'Well, to be honest'.....that is.

straightchris

For the record: the chant is "we are all Palestinians."

According to Sir jeremy Grenstock Hamas is a grievance based militant group whose declaration against Israel was written by one of their founders.
Should we judge Zionism by the declarations that some of their founders made in the past?
When will it end?
The chief reason for the IDF bombing of Gaza was that Israel feared a "Peace offensive" by Hamas who were going to ratify the two state solution along the June 1967 borders.

Lee Laurie

Joe Strummer....exactly !
Just like the Germans all thought that Hitler was a great bloke until the RAF and the USAAF started to give them a bit of a pounding.I suppose nowadays they would say it was disproportionate.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Dixon: Who told you Human Rights Watch was funded by George Soros?

EDDIIE

News reports just in tells of the toxic Hamas raiding the supply trucks. So much for their concern for their people. Israel is planning field hospitals in Gaza to treat civilians caught up in the battle. Hams has its headquarters in the Sifra hospital. So much for the geneva convention- although that does not apply to criminal gangs.

phil

Alan Kenny are you intent on asking the same ridiculous question when I have given you a definitive answer at 5.20 yesterday ?or are you just here to write something malicious ,at least let us know

A. Jebusite

A MISSIVE FROM THE JEBUSITES (especially to Phil) -

'A tragic misunderstanding' The Times January 13, 2009 -

"A small group of Jews and Arabs are using an old theory and new genetic research to redefine - and, hopefully, one day to end - the Israeli-Palestinian conflict......" -

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article5504478.ece

Roland

It's hard to know which is the more laughable - KateA's whacky views on Haaretz, or Dixon's off-the-wall assertion that Human Rights Watch exists to further George Soros's financial aims. Surely, Dixon, you cannot be serious? I'd be amused to hear your evidence for this fantasy.

Alan Kenny

If Israel had abided by the 70+ U.N. resolutions they've been allowed to ignore, then they would be living in peace.
Israel does not want peace.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Alan Kenny: If Israel had abided by the 70+ U.N. resolutions they've had no choice but to ignore, they wouldn't be here. If Israel does not want peace, why did they pull out of the Sinai, Lebanon, and Gaza?

davidka

you are right miranda!
it is a difference between being humane and civilized and going down the road of perdition and the apologists for hammas who yearn for signs of Israeli brutality whilst denying the reams of information of hammas's awful brutality and canon fodder use of its own people. It is a prophetic sign as to British civilisation os heading.
Why does a tiny democratic slither of land attract so much hatred and yet the murder of many thousands more around the world in sudan indonesia, png,thailand, nigeria etc etc raises not a whisper.
their can be only one answer to that question = pure racism.

stanley Jerusalem

To all of you out there who don't know Haaretz is Israel's Guardian. Hence the anti-Israeli content of left-wing so-called intellectuals. i always thought an intellectual was a person who used reason not blinkers [blinders to our USA friends].

phil

Alan Kenny well now at least we know what you want to say -you stupid people do not take long to smoke out do you ?You cannot answer my question either .but nothing new !it happens all the time

EthanII

To Mary: again, regarding the assertion of the first posting personage: f any other country had inflicted the sort of horrors now visited on Gaza, world leaders would have united in a massive outcry. You're lucky to be Israel ."

What about Sudan? The government there has killed 400,000 civilians, Mary. Not 900 people as in Gaza, 2/3 of whom were Hamas soldiers anyway, and the rest are the fault of Hamas who uses human shields. FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND civilians! And yet...the Government of Sudan, like that Government of Syria, was elected to the UN Human Rights Commission in 2004-2005!

Did Muslims protest this? NO NO! The Arab League SUPPORTS Sudan (2007!

Have YOU, Mary, with your humanitarian sensitivities, PROTESTED any of this in public, joined in demonstrations? You know--I don't think so.

Again the lack of international outrage at Sudan, like Syria, shows tht the international outrage at Israeli acts which are 1/20 Syria's and 1/400th Sudans, and which involve primarily Hamas soldiers being killed--it's all hypocrisy. It's all, frankly, anti-semitism--as the Palestinian poet said (happily): if it was Palestinians vs. ANYONE else, the world would not care. It's the Jews.

andy c

Dixon!

Human Rights Watch gave us Black Wednesday then?

Lovin it.

I imagine Amnesty International gave us the credit crunch and Btselem gave us sub prime mortgages?

Stop smearing the messenger, and do something about the problem.

Why are so many Palestinians so badly burned? What ammunitions is the IDF using and who is investigating?

anglicus

Paul Lewis:
"Is there nothing we can do to reign in the Islamists who, as in the FCO, are in (and out of) control there?"
We can't or won't even control islam in our country, so what chance do we stand in their country?

Kiwi

My apologies, for I know this is off topic; is it only me or does anybody else feel that whilst the world is preoccupied with the Gaza conflict, that Russia is spoiling for a fight with Ukraine? Can we expect to see the tanks rolling in sometime soon in order to 'protect' gas supplies to Europe? The UN will be beside itself:)

beloved

It's heartbreaking what is happening to Jewish people in the UK. My Christian church in the US, and I'm sure many others, are praying for you and your fellow citizens who stand with you. I'm wearing a Star of David necklace to show support. If there is anything Christians in the US can do to help Jewish people in the UK, please ask. I'll spread the word. Remember Psalm 91. We'll stand together there.

Roland

Stanley,

I'm afraid your description of Haaretz cannot be called accurate. I've read both Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post through the current conflict. While the Post has been entirely pro-government to the point of propaganda, Haaretz is far more even-handed and has published a range of views from within Israel, both for and against the current action.

Isn't this what democracy is about? Israel is, proudly, a democracy. Its citizens are entitled to criticise aspects of their government's actions, without being labelled anti-Israel.

Indeed, their criticism can be seen to stem from a true love of their land, and of the ideals on which it was founded or of their desires for a better future. The kind of slander and name-calling which often pass for debate here is not worthy of those democratic ideals.

Louise

In his latest Diary piece for the BBC News website the egregious Jeremy Bowen (the Beeb's Middle East Affairs Editor) has given a naked indication of his bias. Could we all start a mass protest to the BBC, please, and can the Board of Deputies and MPs who value truth and impartial reportage on the BBC's part (as per the term's of the Beeb's Charter) please protest loud and clear!!!
"While I was in London on a very quick visit this weekend, I left Paddington Station in a taxi and ran almost immediately into the big demonstration against Israel's war in Gaza. I wondered if any of the people had seen the reports that my team had been producing, and what they thought of them. For me it was a strange collision between the world of work and the world of home. The BBC, like every other news organisation, has been stopped by Israel from getting into Gaza. In this war, the main problems journalists face stem from Israel's desire to control the news agenda. I don't think that the Israelis are succeeding. A lot of good journalism is being done. Of course, it would be better if we could put the people and resources into Gaza that we would like. But at the BBC we are lucky that we have two excellent Palestinian journalists in Gaza who are working virtually around the clock, producing excellent original material. Plus the news agencies there are very active. It is not perfect for us but it is functioning, and our two guys, Rushdi Abu Alouf and Hamada Abu Qammar, are stars. Israel has been able to put across its narrative, that it is acting in self defence and doing all it can not to kill civilians. But it has been countered by the sheer weight of images of suffering from Gaza, which have inspired protests across the world."

How much longer is Bowen going to be allowed to flout the BBC Charter with impunity?

phil

Loise I have emailed newsnight twice regarding the abominable interview by paxman with the Israeli Foreign office rep -THEY PREDICTABLY HAVE IGNORED ME -we will never get fairness so long as those at the top are guardianistas .

mark

@Miranda Rose Smith

If Israel does not want peace, why did they pull out of the Sinai, Lebanon, and Gaza?

Israel returned the seized Sinai in return for peace. Israel returned seized Southern Lebanon in return for peace. Unfortunately, Israel returned the Gaza strip whilst maintaining an air, land an sea blockage. Israel also expanded the illegal West Bank and East Jerusalem settlements.

@ Dave M

Nope, Israel believes Jerusalem should be primarily a Jewish capital in the same way Tokyo is a Japanese capital.

Dave, didn't you mean Jerusalem should be primarily an Israeli capital?

It's odd that both Olmert and Livni along with most of the world want Jerusalem to be a shared capital as the base of three Abrahamic beliefs.

Alan Kenny

beloved
"It's heartbreaking what is happening to Jewish people in the UK."

Are they having their women & children routinely slaughtered just because they want to live in peace, like the Palestinians?
How about a thought for all the innocents massacred by the terrorist Israeli state?

Harvey

Why not get to the heart of the matter.

If Hamas cared for the Palestinian people they would even now call an immediate halt to the barrage of rockets which have struck Southern Israel for some 8 years . According to Israel there would be an immediate cessation of hostilities and the lifting of the blockade .Should Israel maintain either it would be readily apparent that Israel was the aggressor and had no interest in peace .There is in fact no answer to this point although it would be interesting to hear the mitigating circumstances from the usual apologists for terror.

The harsh reality is that Hamas care not a jot for the suffering of their own people.They are expendable fodder ,unwitting Shaheed in Hamas ideological war and committment to Israels obliteration .

Shame on all those who support this nihilistic fascist terror entity and the tragedy it has caused for the people of Gaza

stanley Jerusalem

Roland - Haaretz, while being a fine newspaper here in Israel, still fulfils the function which The Guardian does in the UK.
It seems a puzzling and inescapable fact of life that to be cultured involves a degree of surrender to wooly-minded 'liberalism' that eschews pragmatism and the hard decisions.It seems to prefer to 'stand on the sidelines and criticise rather than bitr the bullet. It tries to be urbane and 'civilised' and falls into the trap of losing the big picture in a desire to appear cerebral.

Adam B.

Alan Kenny, learn about UN Chapter 6 and Chapter 7 resolutions. The resolutions you refer to apply to the Arab states as well, so if your interpretation is that Israel is in breach, so is every Arab neighbouring state. But don't let facts deter you from your hate. After all, do you know how many resolutions the UN has passed about China's invasion of Tibet, and the following brutal suppression of its culture? Not one. Yes, the UN moral bastion, an organization which put Zimbabwe in charge of economic development and Libya in charge of human rights. What a grotesque joke, but you keep quoting it anyway, it makes you feel better.

Louise

Phil, I fear that as long as the BBC can rely on that extortionate license fee it will thumb its nose at us. And yet, surely if the Embassy, Board of Deputies and MPs from both Houses took action by going right to the top of the BBC hierarchy something would be done?
In the meantime Bowen has added to the Diary, questioning Israel's claims to be waging "a just war".

DOldham

Alan Kenny, not to be presumptious on anyone else's behalf, but I do not think beloved thinks that Israel is a terrorist state any more than does anyone else who is fair, rational and unblinded by hatred of Jews.

Louise

Coming up in BBC News at Ten - the disclosure that "Nazi propaganda is openly for sale in Berlin".
It's openly for sale in Gaza too - and on the streets of Britain. But it's evidently only liable to exposure by Al Beeb when neo-Nazis are selling it.

Adam B.

Alan Kenny, what do you think about the Hamas Charter? And if you refuse to answer, you are a complete charlatan.

Adam B.

Ethanll, excellent posts. Have you noticed they have no answer to you?

Adam B.

mary, you accusations are without foundation. Read this:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231866575577&pagename=JPost

Do you retract what you said?2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Un:dhimmi

Superb rally. Great atmosphere - and good to see non-Jewish Brits and people of many other nations standing with Israel.

I took some pictures for anyone who would like to see them:

http://gallery.me.com/blogbase/100008

PS Well done for your excellent showing in the 2008 Weblog Awards, Melanie!

Roland

Good morning Dixon - I see you are up early and posting away!

Im still curious to see the evidence to back up your claim that Human Rights Watch exists to further George Soros's financial plans.

In anticipation.

Adam B.

Un:dhimmi - great pictures!

beloved

To Alan Kenny,

DOldham is correct about my views on Israel. However, I was talking about Jews in the UK. You justify discrimination and violence against productive and loyal citizens in the UK who happen to be Jewish. The Jews in the UK are targeted by their fellow citizens and the authorities for what Israel does. How scary is that? Any freedom-loving person would be alarmed. Recently, I read an op-ed written by a Jewish British citizen. She expressed her mother's terror for this news person wearing the Star of David necklace in public. Things have come to that? It's time to make a stand or else, as they say, your group will be next. A recent news story tells of a young woman in Scotland who was brutally beaten in the face for having a slight English accent. Maybe when it is YOUR group, you'll want people around the world to be supportive you.

phil

Adam B.
January 14th, 2009 12:14am
ADAM b
"Alan Kenny, what do you think about the Hamas Charter? And if you refuse to answer, you are a complete charlatan."

WELL HE DIDNT ANSWER ADAM !!!THEY NEVER DO -IF THIS SUBJECT WAS NOT SO SERIOUS I WOULD SAY IT IS A JOKE