Sir Jeremy Greenstock says Hamas is only about ‘resistance’

clive

I heard this too and was flabbergasted at his comment that the Hamas rockets did not contravene UN resolutions. What was even more disgraceful was the near reverential "questioning" by James Naughtie (i think). it became a uncontested opinion piece riddled with prejudices and laughable opinions.

These public school oxbridge types....

Louise

Ah! Foreign Office Arabism meets 1930s Appeasement. Remember the fate of prewar Czechoslovakia.

Yehuda

Sir Jeremy reminds me very much of those very urbane British administrators of the League of Nations Mandate for The Land of Israel (1922-1948).
They did not much like Arabs, but they utterly despised and were contemptuous of the Jews, so that when Arabs periodically ran amok (1920, 1929, 1936 - 1939, 1947 ) murdering Jews, the murderers used to exclaim, "Kill the Jews! The Government is with us!"

Howard

Absolute rubbish. The UK Government was talking to the IRA years before as you describe it ‘the war is over'

Greenstock made many valid points in the interview some of which should be taken up. To say that he promoting Hamas is just absurd and beyond parody

Your problem is only see one point of view, you take quotes out of context, and moreover provide no solutions to the problems.

Answer me this. Why does Israel not let journalists into Gaza. Is Israel, like you, afraid of the truth?

The truth is that Israel actions against Hamas are driven by a corrupt PM hoping to stay in power and postpone elections and two others jockeying for position to succeed him. That is what has caused the timing of the latest offensive. This is so obvious but you refuse to address this because it does not suit your arguments.

patricia

Why is it hard to believe, as you put it, that "any Western person" could say what Greenstock has?

Maybe you live under a rock, but 50,000 Western People marched in London alone on Saturday, and no end of 'Western People' have voiced their disgust at Israel's actions.

Is it all see no evil, hear no evil in your world?

Ian C

If, as Sir Jeremy states, "That's a rhetorical statement of resistance and not part of their programme" Hamas does not seek Israel's destruction then he will have no trouble in persuading thee to drop it from the front page of their constitution.

Gemma

Uncontested opinion piece. Yes. A bit like the first half hour of Newsnight last night that spent that amount of time saying again and again that unless the British government condemned Israel, Britain would be likely to come under attack from radicalised Muslims.

These are the rules now: threaten or use violence and you'll have the BBC fawning all over you.

Mark

Why sound so surprised about this? I'm sure there are plenty of examples of equally misleading propaganda promoting Israel's policies.

Adam

Utter misrepresentation bty Melanie. If you think the UK government weren't talking to the iRA while it was bombing mainland Britain, then you have no understanding of that conflict.

Israel is as guilty as Hamas in breaching the ceasfire terms. See Avi Shlaim's article here http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine.

If there were no elections in Israel and Bush not leaving the White House and the memory of the botched up operation in Lebanon, the current attack from Israel would not have happened. It's not simply about Hamas and its charter.

Patrick

I particularly enjoyed Greenstock's bit about international law and UN resolutions - if I remember correctly, he acknowledged that Hamas was breaching international law by firing rockets - but the implication was that that was alright because it wasn't breaching UN resolutions.

logdon

Springtime for Hitler? These Hamas Charter assertions are straight from the Nazi songbook, lock, stock and many smoking concentration camps. They are virtually word for word facsimiles of an ubermensch mentality with Islam replacing Aryan. The master race is now Islamic and the Jews must, at all cost, be eliminated. Yet the banners paraded by Muslims and the Far Left in the vicious demonstrations on our streets, in reality nothing more than state allowed anti semitic hatefests, deploy Nazi imagery in the worst of all delberate provocations towards Jews. The irony these imbeciles miss is that in the Fuerer's demented mind International Jewry was inextricably linked with the Bolsheviks, yes the very forefathers of those goons who now align themselves with the Islamist cause. Perfidious Marxism indeed? What does disturb me though was Hazel Blears' appearance on last night's Newsnight, more or less repeating Greenstocks assertions. She talked in the most patronising and generalising terms of the incredibly loyal, hardworking Muslim community's valuable devotion to Britain but not one iota of the Jewish contribution. She talked of demanding an immediate ceasefire to save innocent Gazan lives without mention that the bulk of Arab casualties are in fact Hamas terrorists and their leaders. Not once was any mention made of the huge provocation of threat, insult and rocket fire Israel has endured. Not once mention of the human shields, the internecine murders of rival factions, or the revival of crucifixion as punishment for apostates. And glaringly, not once any mention of the constant rumble of aid convoys from Israel which is in fact keeping Gazans alive. If Israel is intent on the genocide she implied why would they do such a thing? Did Nazis provide the starving Warsaw ghetto with similar life supporting comfort and sustenance? It is so pathetic as to be beyond laughter. This is Orwell's Newspeak, red not so much claw, but political alliance. It is moral inversion in it's most dishonest and dissembling manifestation yet a British Minister of State feels quite within her remit to pump out the lies and evasions. Trouble for her and her brothers in dishonesty is that they have been rumbled. The internet blogs are alive and well (for the time being, anyway) and dissent is rife. If they don't believe Brown's fantasy visions for our future, they certainly won't believe the drone of a demented woman who gives the term red top a bad name.

logdon

Howard
January 13th, 2009 11:57am

"The truth is that Israel actions against Hamas are driven by a corrupt PM hoping to stay in power and postpone elections and two others jockeying for position to succeed him."

A bit like El- Gordo then? Especially when Milburn joins Mandy at the top table.

patricia

Melanie, have you ever been to Gaza?

EDDIE

The news today tells us 16000 civilians were killed in Mogadishu. Where are the marches? Where are the posters? There are plenty of other examples with far larger numbers. Silence.
The pathetic situation is that in Gaza the BBC currently counts about 900 civilians dead. The numbers actually include mainly terrorists but this fact is never mentioned. The Lebanese army chased Palestinian terrorists into their camp. They flattened it. Silence. AN IDF soldier complains about being shot at by 12 year old with guns. That is the least if the infamy Hamas indulges using its own citizens. I sometimes speculate about the personal histories of some of critics

Shafiq

Hamas will not drop it from the constitution as Sir Greenspan says, 'until it knows for certain that Israel wants peace'. He continues saying that Fatah renounced violence and recognised Israel and got absolutely nothing in return (the illegal settlements continue expanding in the West Bank). Hamas is rightly cautious.

phil

This just shows what a waste of time it would be to rely on anyone other than themselves -The nonsense on this small thread alone demonstrates if it was needed at all ,the lies that will be perpetrated by those that support anything against Jewish opinion -look at the idiotic patricia claiming 50000 demonstrators on her own abacus ,and the inestimable howards "expose"-what is there worth listening to?

Andre

Greenstock is typical, as Louise and Yehuda mention, of the pro-Arab bias long evident in the Foreign Office and the British establishment. The upper classes did not like Jews preferring to be enthralled by Lawrence of Arabia and the noble Bedouin. Israelis understandably have little time for the British. In the run up to independence the British navy sunk immigrant ships off the coast of Israel and imprisoned holocaust survivors in concentration camps on Cyprus. I try in mitigation to remember Orde Wingate and the thousands of volunteers who have worked in Israel and still wish her well. I am disgusted at Greenstock and Blears and the rest of them. These people are second rate Brits devoid of moral compass. I am proud of my country when I think of Churchill, the industrial revolution, our espousal of and export of democracy, Shakespeare etc....but there's another country I've heard of long ago...

Jerry

While each comment on this piece from Melanie adds content and meaning - even those opposed to her point of view, nobody gets to the base of the matter for more than a sentence.

Please understand that it is pure fear and running about with hands on head screaming, "What shall we do?" that prompts most of the easily refuted arguments in favor of Hamas. No one in their right minds would suggest that a win by Hamas would be good for the world's progress. The most that the "confused" can hope for is a stalemate that could be construed as stability. But stability is an illusion of misplaced hope, and cannot be obtained by diplomacy. Israel will prevail or Israel will die. Those are the sides of the issue - none other. The same metric is true of Britain and all of Europe. Get used to the truth, so you don't have to spend your lives genuflecting.

George

Howard,
You ask "Answer me this. Why does Israel not let journalists into Gaza. Is Israel, like you, afraid of the truth?"
I'll tell you why. Israel does not want journalists telling the Hamas where and what its army units are doing. Anyway, if the journalists really wanted to get in, why don't they cross in through the border between Gaza and Egypt?

You then make the following amazing statement:
"The truth is that Israel actions against Hamas are driven by a corrupt PM hoping to stay in power and postpone elections and two others jockeying for position to succeed him. That is what has caused the timing of the latest offensive. This is so obvious but you refuse to address this because it does not suit your arguments."
This is so blatantly not true as to be laughable. The corrupt PM (I'll agree with you on that) has already resigned. At the most, he might get an extra month in office. Hardly a reason to go to war! The timing of the actions is simply because eight years of being bombarded by rockets is enough. Israel is fed up of using the carrot, so it's no time to use the stick.

Honest disclosure of a possible conflict of interests: My two sons are both officers in the IDF and are currently both in the general area of Gaza.

aitch

Patricia; I think you are the one under the rock. The anti-Israel march, comprising far fewer than 50,000 incidentally, was hardly made up of 'Western people.' 80% were Arabs .

And Adam, you must know that Avi Shlaim is fanatically anti-Israel and anything he says on the subject should be treated with a healthy dose of scepticism. Shlaim makes Galloway look even-handed!

George

Patricia,

I have been to Gaza. What would you like to know?

Leslie

George,I pray for your sons safety.

Andre

Jerry is spot on but does not go far enough. Ultimately this is a struggle between good and evil. We either line up with Israel and see off the twin evils of Islamic terrorism and sharia dictatorship or we fall. No middle way, no in between. Practice genuflecting anyway, Jerry, its de rigeur in the catholic church - 'Know the truth and the truth shall set you free..!'

etal

1.I've always considered Greenstock to be a significant intellect and a man of well honed judgement.What a bitter,bitter disappointment.
2.Surely Patricia is wrong, there must have been at least 150,000 marchers on the steets of London last W/E!

Dirk Blade

What Ms Phillips also does not mention, and several of her commentators fail to recognise, is that the IRA were conducting their attacks in a sovereign part of the United Kingdom. The vast majority of the IRA's active terrorists lived in and acted on UK territory. It was therefore possible for the British government to pursue a counter-terrorist campaign that reinforced police primacy and the UK rule of law. No such possibility exists for Israel in Gaza or the West Bank now it has left them.

(And yes, we did talk with the IRA, but at least their demands were on some level negotiable. And the IRA were initially highly sceptical: they refused to believe that 'secret talks' were not the pretext for an abduction attempt by the security service.)

Jerry and Howard make excellent points. It is profoundly depressing to hear people condemning Israel's conduct, even where they recognise the existence of the threat from Hamas, but not having any serious proposals about what they think should be done instead. More talk? Tried that. Concessions? Not an unqualified success so far. Economic sanctions are dismissed with a straight face as 'genocide' - though often mooted as the perfect solution for Iraq, Sudan, Zimbabwe etc.

Israel now has literally no freedom of action to attempt to stop Hamas that has not been subject to de-legitimization by the so-called international community. It cannot rely upon the Hamas structure to control its own people to observe any ceasefires; it has no practical recourse to international law, as so many states are happy to allow Hamas and Hizbollah to break their own 'ceasefires' – there are useful idiots in the media who have the brass neck to talk of a ceasefire being intact even though Hamas is openly firing rockets. Any military steps Israel takes are condemned as 'disproportionate', as if the determinant of proportionality was simple calculus of numbers of lives, rather than a complex assessment including the duration of the threat and the extent of the risk of inaction.

It is impossible to avoid the fact that most of Israel's detractors – with notable exceptions like Peter Hitchens – have no interest in furthering a 'proportionate' solution that would constrain Hamas violence and increase Israel's security. Where there *is* any coherence to their objections, they generally wish only to indulge their own sense of moral superiority by opposing ‘violence’.

But as it goes with Israel, so it goes in other democracies, and it's later than you think. Most in 'the west' have grown so far from understanding the application of military force that they have lost the ability to make intelligent judgements about the current situation. And it is impossible to imagine any collective threat to Europe so grave that any government would consider a resort to force; or so compelling that its collective citizenry would not take to the streets chanting that acme of complacent moral narcissism 'not in my name'. Just because we have had the luxury of peace that have allowed our aries to atrophy, we should not seek to impose our own moral torpor on others for whom survival is a more pressing concern. But when there is nothing we are prepared to fight for, it is no surprise that our freedoms are being eroded so insidiously, by the powers that seek to undermine the ability of our civilization to defend itself.

mark

George,
Israel still controls the Rafah border. You probably know this. The question should be: why does Israel control the Egypt/Gaza border and the West Bank/Jordan border?
Greenstock is correct. Hamas wants an end to the illegal occupation. Mark Regev conceded that Hamas fired no rockets at Gaza up to 4th November when the Israelis killed 7 inside Gaza. Despite withdrawing unilaterally from Gaza, Israel maintained and increased the air, land and sea blockade and shut off the irrigation systems to the greenhouses in Gaza. Even when fruit and vegetables grown in Gaza were prepared for export, Israel would delay the lorries at the checkpoints just long enough for the food to rot.
If Israel was an honest broker for peace, what have they done in the West Bank for (now ex-president) Abbas? As Mustafa Barghouti points out, all they got was more illegal settlements, outposts and checkpoints and the continued terror of land seizures and settler violence (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123179827617474931.html?mod=googlenews_wsj).

Thomas

"The Hamas charter which contains the aim of destroying Israel had merely been ‘drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam, he averred, and had ‘never been adopted as part of their political programme’."

Understandable - it's much like Labour's Clause IV, which they never actually implemented, of course.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Sir Jeremy GreenStock, has a fantasia about Arabia, this guys they talk rubbish, they will never understand terrorism, sitting in their cozy and comfortable offices in the west, I know they don't want understand and I don't have to be be Oxford graduate to know this

Bruce

I am sick and tired of hearing the lying rubbish spouted by people such as Greenstock and third rate politicians such as Blears and the platform given to them by the disgusting and disgraceful BBC that continues to spout it's own left wing anti Jewish pro Hamas propaganda through it's own in house aparatchiks.

The Bible say's 'I will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse it '.

GOD BLESS ISRAEL

Charles

Andre,
In 1936 some of the British newspapers ran a campaign to bring Lawrence of Arabia into government alongside Churchill; to deal with the problems faced in India, the Middle East and with a resurgent Germany. Reporters would wait outside his Hampshire cottage, hoping to get an answer. But a motorcycle intervened. It's one of the great 'what ifs?'. I won't deny he has cast a long shadow, but then what would one expect of someone of whom Winston Churchill said "I deem him one of the greatest beings alive in our time... We shall never see his like again"

Joe Strummer

Sorry, Melanie, but the Hamas / IRA analogy / comparison IS very true. Yes, the terrorist IRA did seek an independent Ireland, but also a narrow bigoted vision of a Catholic Gaelic Ireland, where Protestants and other cowed minorities would keep their collective heads down and know their place.

The IRA is also a nakedly sectarian organisation whose hatred and murder of Protestants simply because of their religion is intrinsic to its DNA. No different to Hamas and their paranoid Jew-hatred.

Also, don't ever be be fooled by the interchangeable public faces of Sinn Fein / IRA. For the European media market they will portray themselves as a trendy left-wing socialist, even Marxist organisation, but for the more conservative North American market they are simple, oppressed, Irish Catholic nationalists with no obvious political agenda. The USA, via the CIA, finally woke up to the IRA when they found out they were involved in training FARC terrorists in Columbia to create, then detonate, massive bombs against the Columbian Government's armed forces.

Hamas, Fatah, the PLO and the IRA are more alike than anyone can imagine. Why else the painted murals on the walls of Catholic West Belfast depicting armed thugs of both the PLO and the IRA ?

steve

George: Do you really believe that Israeli politics has no impact on decisions such as the one to launch the offensive? There's been discussion in the Israeli media that Ehud Barak was reluctant to pursue this course and that he wants to wrap things up as quickly as possible.

Related to this, can I ask whether any of the Israel supporters on here have any doubt about the course being followed by Israel? I don't mean whether Israel has the right to defend itself, but whether this current action is in Israel's best interest. I assume most of you supported the effort against Hezbollah in 2006 and yet even some friends of Israel thought that was a mistake and would end badly and it did. It later emerged that within the first few days of the campaign even the Israeli government wondered how it was going to extricate itself from the situation.

Charles

Yehuda,
Several of those "urbane British administrators" were Jewish, one of whom became our Home Secretary in the 1930s. The list also included a tough-minded WW1 General, Herbert Plumer, who was very highly regarded.

Dave M

The other night I somehow found myself browsing David Ickes website and was surprised to see several "conspiracy" articles directed against Israel. In all the anti Israel articles and theories you encounter, what strikes me as very odd is that Israel is portrayed as aggressive and maybe imperialist. This view is enforced by graphic photos of maimed Palestinian children - a very powerful weapon that can manipulate the feelings of sensitive, peace-loving people worldwide. What many people fail to realise is how Palestinian children have been exploited by Hamas as human shields. There is proof this does take place. Hamas has frequently used children as suicide bombers and also the Beslan terrorists in Russia recently showed the whole world how cheaply they value children. Maybe this is why Russia has been somewhat silent over this conflict in Gaza, having had this experience of human shields. Moreover, the fact children were in the Beslan school for use as human shields didn't stop the Russians storming the building, bloody as the process was. What we also need to bear in mind, is how equally horrific were the images of concentration camp victims after WW2. This whole idea Jews are the aggressors and not, in actual fact, victims of anti semitic racism, isn't challenged as it ought to be. That is, it was the same kind of subtle anti semitism we see today in the U.K. and Europe that eventually inspired the hollocaust. Any conception the IDF deliberatly targets Palestinian children is misguided and plain wrong. The IDF is forced to fight in the area of schools and mosques not out of choice and, lets be honest, they simply have to disarm Hamas, sooner rather than later. Anyone who still has doubts over Israel should bear the following in mind:
(1) Islamic terrorists and Islamic terrorists uniqely target innocent people by randomly blowing up nightclubs, detonating explosives in civilian areas, using children as direct hostages in theatres and schools, using women and children as suicide bombers and so forth. Israel has never acted in this way and only uses targeted weaponry.
(2) More extreme Islamic Clerics openly seek an Islamic Europe and U.K. Jews are quite happy to live in a secular society and have no ambition to impose Judaism on Europe or anywhere else.
(3)No Jew has ever been involved in a terrorist incident either in 9/11, Bali, Madrid, India or Russia.
(4) The IDF wear uniforms and are accountable for their actions. Fundamentalist terrorists wear no uniform and operate as civilians, behind human shields and are not accountable.
People need to wake up and stop defending terrorists and appeasing terrorism. Jews are not the enemy but Islamic fundamentalist Jihadists are.

Harvey

Howard

Do Hamas truly represent the aspirations of the Palestinian people ie to co exist peacefully with their neighbours and to build their lives according to any civilized norm . If so they would stop the rocket barrage of Southern Israel which has gone on for the past 8 years. If Israel then maintained its blockade and current assault then it would be clear to the world that Israel was indeed the aggressor and not just acting to defend its own citizens.

The truth is that Hamas cares not one iota for the suffering of its people . They are expendable ,unwitting Shaheed in the ideological war. Destruction of Israel is paramount even if in turn it leads to the tragedy unfolding in Gaza today

Hamas is part of the Islamofascist ideology which is intent on confrontation with all non Muslims . Hezbollah, Al Quaeda ,Hizb , Janaweed , Muslim Brotherhood ,Hizb and a myriad of other strands are all part of a greater picture ie the return of a dominant ruling Caliphate . In this it is no different from Nazism in that the Caliphate is the equivalent of the 1000 year Reich , Jihad has replaced Blitzkreig and the demonisation and persecution of minorities remains the same .

That the ideological war is for the most part limited to sporadic incidents and undercover counter ops does not make it any less a war.

Israel is on the front line of this assault on all the values which we hold dear . If Israel fails in its attempt to confront this most heinous terrorist ideology then it will have serious consequences for the rest of the civilized world

Steven Mann

Re: Patricia: "Melanie, have you ever been to Gaza?"

Gaza government does not allow Jews to live there. The Israeli government forcibly removed 8,000 Jews from their Gaza homes in 2006 to accomodate the citizens and goverment of Gaza. Gaza is Judenrein. Over a fifth of Israeli citizens are Arab. They have proportionate representation in the Knesset, and all the freedoms democracy brings including the freedom to demonstrate against he Gaza War whilst carrying Palestinian flags.

clivex

Did i detect the malign and very anti jewish state, hand of Jeremy Bowen behind this piece?

Bill Rees

Both the Palestinians and the Israelis are doing bad things to each other, and it isn't easy to be sure about which is aggression and which is defence.
The difference is, though, that one party to this conflict wants to completely annihilate the other, if it ever gets the chance, and the other party wants only to live in security and peace.
Unfortunately this is not what Hamas wants.
To quote Article 7 of the Hamas Covenant: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
Given that statement, I don't see how any civilised person could take the side of Hamas in this dispute, regardless of the current suffering of the Palestinian people, which has been brought on them by Hamas' own intransigence.

Worried

I just made the mistake of watching several 'good quality' videos of Chechnyan, uhm, fighters?, beheading several Russian soldiers. I have also seen several videos of the hostages being beheaded in Iraq - one a respected journalist. It was not just the beheading that shocks, it is the manner in which the victims are made to watch others die a slow death first. And then each (still living) soldier is dragged off in a completely undignified fashion by a people who seem completely devoid of compassion, emotion or due process.

I wonder if Mr. Greenstock has any idea of who we are dealing with here?

Charles

Completely, utterly and totally irrelevant to the subject of this blog but I mentioned Herbert Plumer in an earlier response to Yehuda's comment. Melanie may be interested to know that the coat of arms for her old college were his, having been 'gifted' to the college by his daughter who was the Principal for many years. Indeed, I believe the name 'Plumer' still lives on in a variety of manifestations at that college.

EDDIE

As the media attack on Israel become more vicious and wide spreading I begin to think that maybe Israel is winning the battle. Could I be right?

Pat Viliors

Patricia, before you dismiss an insignificant minority based on numbers, look at how many Jews there are in Britain (250,000) and how many Muslims (over 2 million). Is it any wonder that Hamas will attract more support than Israel. Just because 30 million Germans supported Hitler, it didn't make them right. Or perhaps you think it did?

Mailman

In 2005 Palestinians had a choice, they could have lived in peace and prosperity OR they could continue to bombard Israel, bringing about hardship and suffering for their neighbours and themselves.

Does it surprise anyone that they choose to bombard Israel?

Also, why do we still have palestinian refugee camps 60 years AFTER the creation is Israel?

Who benefits from these camps? Certainly not the occupants.

Or look at it from this point of view. There are no refugee camps in Israel inspite of over 800,000 jews being evicted from Arab countries and fleeing to Israel.

No, instead of wallowing in their self pity and creating a society based on hatred, the jews got off their arses and made their lives better.

Mailman

Leslie

Did Mads Gilbert know about the Hamas leaders cowering in the basement of the Shiva hospital?

Augustus

@ EDDIE

"The pathetic situation is that in Gaza the BBC currently counts about 900 civilians dead"

I heard it was 917. Time the BBC lost count?

GC

Good to see you back as essayist and not propagandist Melanie.

A small corrective perspective on the Muslim Brotherhood from Gen. Michael Herzog writing in "Foreign Affairs" - 'Can Hamas be tamed?' March/April 2006:

"It has been more common for regimes in the region to deal with Islamists through repression and confrontation followed by partial and limited co-optation. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, for example (established in 1928), which favored violence to the point of assassinating a prime minister in 1948, was outlawed in 1954. Decades of repression and political exclusion eventually split the movement into two branches. The radicals found their way into Egyptian Islamic Jihad and ultimately al Qaeda. The moderates moved toward the mainstream, focused their message on education and the "indoctrination of the heart," and renounced the use of violence in 1971. They were then allowed to enter the political field, and they began participating in elections in 1984 (although they have had to run as independents, since Egyptian law bans parties based on religion). Relying on strong organizational skills and the good reputation of its social and religious arms, and taking advantage of the government's poor performance, the Muslim Brotherhood is now Egypt's leading opposition group."

MH is pessimistic about Hamas and the optimistic liberal view that the democratic process will tame it but one positive he does cite is the Muslim Brotherhood experience above.

[what he doesn't mention was the route to al Qaeda - persecuted (very seriously persecuted) members made their way from Egypt to Saudi Arabai and into their education and religious ministries. Thus Eric Rouleau (another rogue diplomat I should hasten to add) writing in "Foreign Affairs" - 'Trouble in the Kingdom' July/August 2002:

"Threatened by the Arab nationalism that led to the overthrow of governments elsewhere in the region in the 1950s and 1960s, Saudi Arabia granted political asylum to thousands of members of the Muslim Brotherhood who were fleeing repression in Egypt, Syria, and Iraq.These men brought with them a doctrine of political Islam formulated by the movement’s founder, Hassan al Banna, and developed by the theoretician of jihad, Sayed Qutb, who was executed in 1966 by Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser. And they soon came to exert vast influence in Saudi Arabia. Employed as imams in mosques, as instructors and professors in schools and universities, and as senior officials in the ministry of education, members of the Muslim Brotherhood designed school textbooks and syllabuses and published works interpreting the Koran along the strict guidelines of their beliefs. In the process, they won numerous local disciples, including many within the Saudi clergy."]

There's a recent interview with Gen. Herzog at http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/PBS_interview_Gen_Michael_Herzog_31-Dec-2008.htm . Notice he stresses the aim of the current offensive is not to destroy Hamas but 'to change the equation, to create deterrence'.

Well it would be silly of me to try to defend Sir Jeremy Greenstock. I'm not an arabist however 1 indeed the British Army brought the IRA to their knees but not primarily through armed force but rather through military intelligence 2 it is absolutely *all* about rhetoric out there in the Arab Middle East.

As late as 2007 (and for all I know continuing so) the Palestinian authority (i.e. not just Hamas) school textbooks referred to Israel as 'occupied territories' as did until recently at least Saudi and even Kuwaiti school textbooks. Hamas' ideological rhetoric is absolutely horrible but they don't have a monopoly on anti-semitism in the Midle East - familiar poison, same old bottle.

Hippiepooter

"My colleagues and I have introduced Hamas to senior members of Sinn Fein and they are very interested in the precedent, the example of what happened in Northern Ireland."

I bet they are. The NI 'peace process' is a great terrorist success!

hippiepooter

Andre
January 13th, 2009 1:24pm

"The upper classes did not like Jews preferring to be enthralled by Lawrence of Arabia"

Lawrence of Arabia was a confirmed Zionist. Check it out

Wyn

It is almost with despair that I read some of the inane comments made here. Some of the contributors do not seem to be on earth at all. There is a real threat not only to Israel and the Jews but to all people who appreciate the Western way of life, yet many do not seem to comprehend and will probably still be in denial even when it is happening in their street. (Or perhaps they would welcome such a development). For goodness sake do not compare the threat we face with that once posed by the IRA, we are in a totally different league here. This threat is to everything with which we are familiar. Do not berate Melanie for trying to make you aware.

Andrew Brooker

Fantastc piece f work - keep it up.
But were are the solutions?

Cantab

The Guardian. 8 January 1942.
"German children die in inferno horror as RAF bombs Berlin.
Massive demonstrations in the streets brought further pressure to bear
on Prime Minister Winston Churchill, as Liberal front benchers called
for his resignation..'The loss of civilian life is completely
unacceptable' said a coalition of opponents to the current RAF bombing
campaign. 'People need to realize that the ongoing conduct of Jews
within Germany is very understandably exacerbating the Nazi party's
feelings of resentment towards them and garnering sympathy for their
cause...." etc etc

I wonder how we ever won the war.

Nick Kaplan

Sir Jeremy’s views are absolutely typical of the left-wing establishment of this country. His logic must run along the lines of “why take either the Hamas Charter or any of their terrorist actions as an indication of their aims and objectives, when instead one could simply infer their aims from one’s own political biases?”

Why is it that the useful idiots in the left-wing establishment are so willing to take people at their word when they have an incentive to lie (e.g. benefit claimants) and at the same time so happy to dismiss the stated aims of groups (in order to them make other aims up) who would be better served by doing the opposite and lying about their intentions?

Max Kaye

Hamas has declared their current situation as a 'victory'.

Would it be very nasty of me to wish them many more such victories.

Mark

How many of those who have protested against Israeli military action in Gaza were protesting when the Lebanese army shelled the Nahr al-Bared Palestinian refugee camp in May 2007? It is always interesting how selective the "concern" of certain people about the Palestinians can be.

EC

logdon: "What does disturb me though was Hazel Blears' appearance on last night's Newsnight, more or less repeating Greenstocks assertions."

She's not the sharpest knife in the NuLab drawer .... but venal to the core - just like the rest of the gang. Who do you think is bankrolling Al Gordo's recession borrowing?

Makes a change from the flacid facades of the other ageing Bliar babes BUT any more facelifts and she'll be sporting a beard!

Fabio P.Barbieri

George, Plebeia does not want to know anything. She already knows everything she wishes to know, and will react very angrily against anyone who tries to force any more knowledge on her.

Adam B.

patricia, have you ever been to Israel? and it wasn't 50,000 - we can all invent numbers.

Louise

As if on cue, Jeremy Bowen of the BBC has a brand new entry on his Diary of the Gaza conflict on the BBC News website - making the comparison with Northern Island.
Won't somebody tell the outrageously opinionated and partisan Mr. Bowen about the nature of the Hamas Charter, something he seems always to overlook.

Andre

Is there a solution to the Gaza/West Bank conflict? I believe there is. Both Egypt and Jordan have peace treaties with Israel. The Palestinians - have consistently rejected any solution that involves recognition of Israel's right to exist. The solution therefore is to place Gaza under Egyptian control, making it a part of Egypt. Place the West Bank back with Jordan. Factor in properly equipped troops - the return of the Arab Legion? - to keep the peace. Allow free movement of the residents so they can seek out work and opportunities. Moreover expel the Islamo-fascists and start installing basic services, education and industry. Perhaps this sounds naive and in any event will un-nerve the Egyptians but both areas are political vacuums in real terms which need to be solidly filled by responsible government
hippiepooter - maybe you are right but I think the effect of Lawrence - who I don't doubt was basically a good sort - was to turn on the British to the cause of Arabism. If he was a Zionist I guess its a shame they didn't take more notice of him.

victoria williams

Melanie - I am sure you have neither been to Gaza or talked to Hamas? Perhaps Sir Jeremy has an advantage over you and those like you who seem locked in the past, repeating the same mantras that have ensured that the Peace Process has got no where. The world is moving on and the massive support for the demonstrations calling for a cease fire demonstrate that we are calling time on Israel's policy of ignoring world opinion. Sir Jeremy gave us some home truths and it was very refreshing hearing someone of his stature refelcting popular opinion

John R.

The behaviour of Israel over the last few weeks is nothing short of disgusting. This article and many of the comments are disturbing, and truly shameful.

Louise

Oh dear! I meant Northern Ireland, of course, not the Kiwi island!

Marin

Sir Jeremy has just been interviewed on Channel 4 by Jon Snow and, during the interview, he asserted that Hamas was NOT a terrorist organization. Very edifying interview, as Jon Snow claimed that that the American administrations follow slavishly Israel orders and he was rebuked by Sir Jeremy! The interview was strategically positioned between a report by Sarah Smith, who asserted that Ehud Olmert instructed President Bush to compel Condolenzza Rice to abstain during a vote in Security Council, and an interview with an Israeli Oxford University professor who asserted (without a shroud of a doubt) that it was Israel who broke the cease-fire with Hamas. Ladies and gentlemen,be aware; it is the 1930's all over again.

JES

Is Israel's response in Gaza disproportionate ? Never having lived in a country surrounded by nations who deny its very right to exist, I don't feel qualified to make that judgement. What is for sure though is that it's the thin end of the wedge. Hamas represents an ideology who's core belief and objective is the fundamental islamification of the entire world and the summary execution of all non-believers.

The liberal left "inteligencia" and its puppet media's support for Hamas implies its support for this philosophy also, which seems somewhat illogical. They appear to have the delusion that the fundamentalist ideology is negotiable and open to reason, it is NOT. To the Jihadist co-existence and co-operation are simply not an option. As such they will never be stopped by discussion or compromise, only by implacable force. It is a sad fact that as yet, only Israel seems to have fully grasped.

It is reminiscent of the 'interlectuals' of the late '30s preaching the appeasement of Hitler's 3rd Reich. 'Be nice to them and they won't bother us', unfortunately that's not how it works. History tells us time and again that the appeasement of the bully only emboldens him to ever more radical action.

I would say to the liberal left. Dwell less upon your irrational hatred of the US and Israel and more upon the kind of world you want your children to inherit. Realise and accept that freedom has to be defended, sadly sometimes by force, consider the alternative before rushing to condemn. Open your minds as to who are your true friends in this world, and more so, as to who are your real enemies

Groovy Times

Melanie, this is what you do best, exposing the willful ignorance, hypocrisy, bigotry and malice towards Israel within the British establishment and wider British populace by placing Israel 's - and the Jewish people's -predicament in it's proper political and historical context.

Commondog

Please excuse him Melanie. It's his way of trying to get on 'Desert Island Discs'.

Louise: 'Northern' where?

Commondog

patricia.

"50,000 Western People marched in London alone on Saturday"

They'd be better marching together. Same old southern coldness.

GC

I thought this Jan 6 post by Hassan Mneimneh 'Defying Hamas' @ http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.29147,filter.all/pub_detail.asp might interest the forum (apologies if already noted). It confirms one of Melanie's themes - that many Arab countries are more sympathetic to Israel than they let on (caution - big one - American Enterprise Institute but I gave it an M30 - more or less as far as I can go - on my scale of things and it held OK: even profound I thought).

See what you think. If the link doesn't work it's current top of the pops my vanity gutsite.

Jamie

Professor Tim Lynch had his eyes popping out at the drivel piling out of Sir Jeremy Poppycock on Channel 4.

Do watch it if you get a chance, Mel. Poppycock's pathetic answers were all salivated over by Mr Tieinplaceofapersonality.

Even the people who were involved in Northern Ireland know it's nothing like the global jihad. For those who want a detailed dissection of this disgraceful comparison, this pamphlet from David Trimble proves highly insightful.

www.davidtrimble.org/publications_misunderstanding.pdf

Dixon

Howard says : "The truth is that Israel actions against Hamas are driven by a corrupt PM hoping to stay in power and postpone elections and two others jockeying for position to succeed him."

Well thats obviously twaddle, the Israeli PM declared months ago that hes standing down.

Dixon

Mark says:
" Even when fruit and vegetables grown in Gaza were prepared for export, Israel would delay the lorries at the checkpoints just long enough for the food to rot"

When Israel left Gaza in 05, James Wolfenson arranged an international fund, even donating millions of his own, to ensure the Israeli hi-tech greenhouse complexes were preserved for use by the "Palestinians". Within weeks, they had smashed them to pieces. The only use they put them to was as a launch site for missiles against Israel.

This rather kicks into a cocked hat the charge that Israel makes it hard to export produce.

Carl

Melanie,your views are consistent because you cannot see anything wrong with Israeli atrocities and cannot accept the right of Palestine to exist. Putting your head in the sand and ignoring history is not the answer, Israel has no choice but to negotiate.

MathewP

Melanie I have dire news....the Church in Wales (affiliated to the Anglican Church and part of the UK establishment) have defected to the new Axis of Evil.
Apparently these warmongers have had the affrontery to set up a mobile dental hospital and clinic where the terrorist population of Gaza may have been treated. But don't worry, your friends in the IDF have dealt with the problem. Read this article froom the Western mail's website...
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2009/01/13/church-clinic-destroyed-in-israeli-missile-strike-91466-22683740/

Louise

Commondog, okay ..., okay ... North Island.

Victoria, take the trouble to read the hateful and bloodthirsty Hamas Charter, and you may realise why your strictures against those of us who are realistic enough to see Islamo-Fascism when we see it believe that Israel has no choice but to engage in arms against the forces of evil that the rest of us in the West ignore at our peril, not least those of us who are female, who would find ourselves subjugated. You are evidently unaware of the brutal Sharia lawcode that Hamas has begun to implement in Gaza, consisting of horrific punishments unknown in the enlightened West and certainly unknown in Israel.
You say that "the world is moving on" - but I think you will find that if Islamo-Fascism holds sway it will not be moving on in a way that you would relish.

steve

Marin: The story about Olmert calling Bush to get the U.S. to abstain in the U.N. was carried by the Jerusalem Post so perhaps it's also now part of the anti-Israel media conspiracy that Melanie fulminates against.

Yehuda

Charles, I did not write, "ALL British administrators..."

Dave

As a wise man once said; "To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war"

Keith

Melanie, I completely agree with everything you have written. Jeremy Greenstock's interview was disgusting, full of lies and pro-Hamas rhetoric. I texted Radio 4 at the time, as I normally do when I hear pro-terrorist propaganda being peddled as 'news', but alas I suspect they just ignore anything they receive which contrary to their anti-Jew/anti-Christian world-view.
And for all those saying that Israel has no choice now but to negotiate, let me ask this - how on earth can you negotiate with a terrorist group like Hamas who are ONLY intent on Israel's complete and utter destruction?
Well done again Melanie.

Hugh

Dear Lady:Sir Jeremy is one of a long dreary line of political poseurs ( see: "Lord" Malloch Brown, exhibit A ) to whom adherence to Fashion-of-the-Moment is paramount...it's that simple. They did not attend my school , there the crest reads "Esse quam Videre"...simple really.England is slowly awakening-need to deep6 yobbism,tho'-as here in the US...keep fighting dear lady!

Straydingo

Howard,

It is Hamas that is controlling the information that gets out and it is Hamas that is not allowing Western Press in.

As anther poster has already pointed out if Hamas wanted western press inside of its borders they would have been slipped in via one of their hundreds of tunnels.

Rob

Lets not forget "this is not a bipartisan conflict between foes. Israel wants to be left alone and Muslims [Hamas] are unwilling to do so."

Rosemary

ANOTHER ITEM not to make it into the news.

During the cease fire yesterday Hamas hijacked over 100 tonnes of aid meant for the civilians. So much for caring for their own.

So many words written so I won't comment on this 'noble' cur Jeremy Greenstock.

However the war would be over nor would have commenced, if Hamas would desist from firing it's rockets. And where are the UN on the abduction of Galid Shalit- it would be wall to wall coverage if Israel did that, and no one able give him aid or comfort. Also the savage butchery in Ramallah of two Israeli soldiers whilst in the custody of the 'Palestinian' police.

How quiet on Mumbai and the atrocities there. Where is the outrage?????????
Also, almost daily there are attacks on non Muslims in Thailand and the Phillipines by those who follow The "prophet"

I imagine no Palestinian is afraid of arrest by the Israelis, or being taken to an Israeli hospital but all of us Jew or non Jew would fear both of the above on Palestinian soil.

Israel recently gave another 400 Palestinian thugs and murderers their freedom, including that very 'brave' and 'gentle' soul who saved Leon Klinghoffer from a slow demise by throwing him off the Achille Lauro in his wheel chair.

I pray that Israel takes no notice of what the world or the UN thinks or says- craven hypocrites most of the those who are screaming loudest.

Israel is the our heart and brains the rest are just piss and wind.
God Bless her

Dave M

Has anyone ever considered how those who bend over backwards to help Hamas spin its tale of victimhood almost always wind up the worst for the experience? I refer to those open-hearted, naieve folks who actually take off to Gaza to show "solidarity" and report back how terrible the Israelis are and how misunderstood Hamas is. Now, one such person was Kate Burton and I'm sure there are maybe a few Kate-Burton-Wannabes either lurking on this forum or maybe even posting. Anyway, what actually happened was Kate Burton was horrified by how she imagined Israel was treating Palestinians. She believed the Israelis to be essentially imperialist invaders and that Hamas represented some kind of indigenous revolt, a la Che Guevara. So, what happened? Well, to cut a long story short, the British girl wound up getting kidnapped by masked Gazan terrorists and was paraded and filmed on videos as a hostage. The kicker is she finally fled to the safety of Israel with her immediate family on release. No doubt the Israelis probably thought the girl was hugely misguided and naieve but she was offered safe passage and returned to the U.K. Here it is:
"Kate Burton, 25, a worker with the Al-Mezan human rights group in Gaza, was seized at gunpoint Wednesday with her parents, Hugh and Helen, in the southern town of Rafah. The parents had come to Gaza on vacation to visit their daughter, officials said.
After a frantic two-day search for the hostages, Palestinian security forces managed to win their release late Friday night, said Palestinian mediator Kamal Sharafi.
British diplomats whisked the family out of Gaza Strip, arriving in Israel ... "

wagner

"...Hamas falsely represents as an occupation of Muslim land and which therefore has to be expunged."
Is this interpretation any more false than the idea that it is jewish land.

Bowser

Dave, given that Hamas says Israel has no right to exist - ever - not one inch of it, could you all please enlighten us as all as to what's to 'jaw-jaw' about?

A wise woman once wrote a book. It's called "Because They Hate".

Adam B.

Keith, agree completely. It should be emphasized that not only do Hamas advocate the destruction of Israel, they advocate the extermination of the Jews, something Hamas apologists, or those who want "talks", seem to conveniently overlook.

Adam B.

Victoria Williams, world opinion as you call it (which doesn't include many countries, but never mind) ignored Israel's pleas for the rockets to stop. It only woke up when Israel responded to Hamas terror. Why then should Israel listen to those who would be happy to see it go under?

roger

"Utter misrepresentation bty Melanie. If you think the UK government weren't talking to the iRA while it was bombing mainland Britain, then you have no understanding of that conflict."
yes we were. we were also still hunting them down and killing them. many were inprisoned only to be realeased to cause havoc even today in southern ireland with theit criminal activities.

joe strummer i am sorry but you are wrong. ideology had much to do with grass roots support and low level operatives. however the main leadership and command structure were to in love with the financial benefits and "respect". when they realised they were losing(and badly) they entered talks. many of the key figure are today still heavily involved in organised crime, smuggling,protection rackets selling and producing forgeries(cash and goods) and live on large farms and houses. they are left alone as part of the good friday agreement.
many are regarded now as sucessful businessmen.no one questioned where their money came from. i for one was bitterly dissapointed that we could not dismantle their fiefdoms and bring them to any semblance of justice having spent so many years battling them. Hamas are largly the same. their methods are more ruthless, they have scant regard for anyone else, they spend all the money given by the eu on themselves and cronies. if 500,000 gazan`s die they would not care and they will continue to make the same capital of it and the same useful dupes in the west will believe anything they say.
the only hope is that israel will ignore the west and do the job properly and not stop till hamas is crushed regardless of casualties on both sides.
it is sadly, as ww2 demonstrates, the only way to achieve a lasting peace with a fanatical foe.
all those who think hamas`s rockets aren`t too bad and are just fireworks. i sugest you pop out to the sudan and hang around while the poor anamist africans there are mortared by there islamic arab masters from the north.
i reckon you will last a couple of hours before you crack not eight years.
the largest mortars they have are 82mm with a 4km range but i bet you run out of undies before they run out rounds. just imagine how scared you would be if they had a 40 km range an 20 times the amount of explosive!

Roy

Another spiffing good chap . . . makes yer sick.

Frank P

Greenstock is typical of the diplomatic swamp from which he was bred; arrogant, unworldly and completely self absorbed. When he speaks he looks like a man who has just discovered a nasty smell and knows it can’t be him because his doesn’t stink. Most of the time he talks utter bollocks.

You can hardly wonder at it when you consider the company he keeps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ditchley_Foundation

Some would say “The Sagacious Great and The Good”. Others might say “The Grotesque and the Gruesome Goners”.

Melanie, you have delineated the history and adduced the evidence of what the Middle East is all about in clear and logical analysis - repeatedly. You must go on doing it because new readers arrive all the time and Israel needs to know there is support in the UK regardless of the bilge being spewed out by the ‘mainstream’ media. I’m afraid your regular supporters are repeating themselves and forgive me if I do too. As for your detractors, it is good that you keep drawing their idiotic twaddle so that people realise just how deranged is the Left’s support of Islamic jihad. They demonstrate their loathing of their own heritage and culture and their stupidity so comprehensively: the result of five decades of counter culture propaganda disseminated through our academic cesspits, I fear.

Unless we get a government that is prepared to curtail the enemy within, Enoch Powell’s rather scholarly prognostications will soon pale into insignificance when the proverbial hits the fan, as it surely must if things continue to evolve as they are. It is already perhaps too late to reverse the Long March, but ...

First step: oust the deranged dickhead from No.10. Any substitute will do for the time being, but he must be stopped, if necessary with a straitjacket.

Trev

Please can someone answer me a question as i am not as clever as the majority of the people that write on here.My question is if hamas are using tunnels to smuggle weapons through from Egypt(as apparently is common knowledge)why does no one seem to be questioning Egypt?least of all the media.

Trev

Dave, i agree it is better"to jaw-jaw than to war-war"but not when one side"Jaw-jaws while the other side war-wars!

Un:dhimmi

Carl - how can 'Palestine' have a right to exist, when it has never existed? You really need to argue the case for your first premise, before you extrapolate to make your second.

It is you, sir, who is 'ignoring history'.

John

Last time I looked, the IRA were seeking independance from England, not the destruction of England. Hamas want the destruction of Israel. Big, big difference. Pity the good Knight is too stupid to see the difference, despite its size. Hamas is comprised of religious zealots. The IRA was comprised of Irish nationalists. Big difference that even little minds should be able to see.

Sami Alrabaa

Israeli Attacks in Gaza and the Arab Demagogy
Dr. Sami Alrabaa
Once again some of us Arabs are as usual in a big mess. The Islamist extremist group Hamas, which came to power 2006 through an un-Islamic political process, namely democratic election, has since hijacked Gaza, established its rocket factories in residential areas, in bunkers under mosques, schools and hospitals. Over the past three years, the Hamas jihadis and their affiliates have frequently targeted their Kassam rockets at residential areas in Israel. Even during the ceasefire brokered by Egypt in 2008, Hamas shot their rockets at Israel. On top of all these, Hamas, like the PLO before the Oslo Accords, rejects the existence of Israel, a UN member state. Its ultimate aim is liberating all Palestine, which include Israel, by wiping out the Jewish state from the world map and possibly by genocidal massacre or deportation of all Jewish people.
The “struggle” of Hamas is backed by Islamists across the globe, by state-controlled media of the Arab world, and by one-eyed anti-war campaigners in the West. Ban Ki-Moon, the Secretary General of the UN, has condemned the latest Israeli military operations in Gaza as “disproportionate”.
All these organizations and groups have voraciously consumed the Hamas propaganda; they allege that the Israeli blockade has caused abject misery in Gaza, people there are starving. Some compare Gaza to a huge prison, to Holocaust. But who is to blame for all this calamity?
Israeli politicians have repeatedly stated that once Hamas stops its terrorist activities and launching of missiles, the blockade would be lifted. The Israeli cabinet even approved of aid convoys into Gaza despite Hamas' continued shooting rockets. The Hamas leadership ignored such conciliatory Israeli gestures and carried on the rocket-attacks on residential areas in Israel.
We Arabs are very good at twisting facts and exaggerating them, when it suits us. Mustafa Barghouthi, a Fatah activist, told CNN (28.12.2008) that “It was Israel which broke the ceasefire with Hamas.” Buthaina Sha’ban, a Syrian cabinet Minister, called the recent Israeli attacks on Hamas' military targets “the most atrocious Holocaust in the history of mankind” [London-based Saudi daily Al Shraq Al Awsat, 29.12.2008].
We Arabs also prefer to be mystical, wishful rather than realistic. Waleed Al Tabtaba’i, an Islamist member of the Kuwaiti parliament, hoped that Allah would come to rescue the Gazans as he did with his prophet Muhammad in all his raids against the infidels [Al Watan, 29.12.2008].
Yusuf Al Qaradhawi, the renowned radical Islamic cleric, told the Al Jazeera TV that “We Muslims, we are a bunch of donkeys if we do not stand up and fight the Israelis and their supporters wherever they are.”
Hamas and its affiliates are feeding on wishful thinking. They believe that an escalation of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would bring them closer to their aim: Arabs and Muslims would take to the street and urge their governments to take action against Israel. Islamists in Iran and Indonesia have registered themselves to fight Jihad against the Jews, the “apes" or "monkeys” as Allah calls them.
We Arabs have learned nothing from the two major disastrous wars against Israel. Some of us still believe that the Israelis understand only the language of defiance and violence. Violence is the only “argument” we possess. Rational, realistic thinking has never been a part of our discourse and action.
Especially Islamists, they rejoice at the on-going maiming and killing in Gaza, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq. None of those Hamas-sympathizers has ever condemned the atrocities inflicted upon innocent people, arbitrarily killed in these countries by suicide bombers in the name Islam.
In Arabic we say, Ja’ja’a bila taheen” (It is all noise without flour). We Arabs are most boisterous, shrill people, but less effective or inclined to seeking pragmatic, workable solutions.
According to a clandestine survey by Bielefeld University conducted in Syria and Egypt (2006), over 70% of the population in these countries want peace with Israel. They are “sick and tired”, as many put it, of the belligerent discourse of the Islamists and the biased and instigatory propaganda of their national media. They, of course, don't dare say that openly.
Khaled, who wants to be identified by his first name only, told me, “Our leaders and their affiliates suffer from some kind of personality disorder. They keep us busy with Israel to distract from their failure to establish democracy and remove poverty. They also support radical organizations like Hamas and Hizballah as tools to keep that distraction alive.”
Fatima said, “Israel left South Lebanon and Gaza. Yet, for Hizballah and Hamas this is not enough. What do these people want? They are making the life of their people and ours miserable. We feel hijacked by these murderers. We want peace.”
Hamas and its affiliates are among the bloodiest in the history of mankind. They do not value human life. They deliberately provoked the Israeli offensive and were aware that that would cause death to hundreds of civilians living in areas where Hamas had stored its rockets. Hamas leadership has been banking on images of death and destruction as a means to rally support in Arab, Muslim, and Western streets.

According to a recent opinion poll, conducted by Emnid Institute in Germany, more than 80% of the German population blame Hamas for the high toll of deaths among civilians in Gaza. One interviewee put it this way, “Hamas is acting like armed criminals who have barricaded themselves among innocent civilians and arbitrarily fire at people around them. As the criminals adamantly refused to stop shooting, the police had no other choice but to storm the area to catch the criminals, or kill them. Unfortunately, several innocent people were killed. You can not blame the death of innocent people on the police. It is the criminals to blame for all this.” Israel must carry on its offensive until the Hamas leaders surrender. There is no peace without sacrifice. All Israelis and decent Arabs would be grateful to the Israeli army if it rids us from those thugs. We want to live in peace.
In view of the fact that Kuwait and Lebanon allow relatively higher freedom of speech, columnists like Ahemd Al Sarraf, Ali Al Baghli, Hasssan El Essa, Fouad Al Hashem, and Khaleel Haidar in these countries have blasted Hamas and the Islamists for the calamity in Gaza.
The Arab world has never experienced any semblance of political freedom and stability. Since independence over the last half of the 20th century, the Arabs have been ruled by despots, either military or hereditary. Demonstrations are basically forbidden; calls for political reforms are ruthlessly squashed. But when people demonstrate against a foreign powers—Israel or the USA, for instance—they are then most welcome.
The Syrian regime even allowed a hand-picked group people to protest against the Egyptian embassy for not opening the border with Gaza. The Egyptian government also allowed demonstrations against the Israeli strikes against Hamas, while the authoritarian regime of Husni Mubarak deals with demonstrators for political reforms ruthlessly; see it here.
The Arab regimes have always projected the “Palestinian cause”—the “Wound of all Arabs” or the “Nakba” (calamity) as some Arabs prefer to call it—as a pretext to keep the people distracted from calls for political and economic reforms at home. The occupation of Iraq and the rise of Islamism have provided Arab regimes with new opportunities to defer socio-political reforms.
Besides, Arab regimes, such as the Egyptian, Syrian and Saudi governments, have appeased Islamists by antagonizing the same enemy, namely Israel and the USA, at least in the media. The radicals have stopped their arbitrary attacks in these countries; instead, they cross borders to wage Jihad against the foreign infidel enemy: in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.
Some dictators have never left a worthy legacy. Many of them have also left destruction, misery and deaths of numberless innocent people: think of Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, Pol Pot; the list is long. The Arab dictators are in a sense in good company.
All that being said, the road to democracy, freedom and liberty in the Arab world will yet be long one; the Arabs would still have to wait for decades before they can enjoy these basic rights of man.
In the meantime, the name of the game in the Arab world would remain demagogy, irrationalism, political schizophrenia, defiance and violence.

Sami Alrabaa

"Karin in Saudi Arabia": A Look Into What Life In Saudi Arabia Is Really Like
Dr. Sami Alrabaa has written a book entitled “Karin in Saudi Arabia”, about a German woman who lived in Saudi Arabia for a while and fell in love with a Saudi--and the nightmare that ensued.
An editorial review by the author is below:

Annotation/Editorial Review

"Karin" is a real story of a German woman, who lived in Saudi Arabia for a while and fell in love with a Saudi. Later, this love turned into a devastating nightmare. The Saudi "Morality Police", notorious for their bestial brutality, raped Karin and threw her in prison. Her crime was, she was driven alone downtown by a taxi-driver. Her German-Saudi baby son was taken away and she was deported to Cyprus without passport and money. Muna, a young Moroccan woman was luckier. She managed to smuggle herself and baby after one-night marriage with Sultan, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia.

In Saudi Arabia, you can marry and divorce a woman in her absence. All you need is a religious man and two male witnesses. This is exactly what happened to Karin; she was married in her absence. Muna never saw any marriage or divorce papers.

Mimi and Najat were brutally stoned to death. Najat, a deaf-dumb was caught by the "Morality Police" and suspected of being a prostitute. In reality she was waiting for her brother to pick her up in front of shop window.

The Morality Police Chief quickly passed sentence on Najat. He wrote, among other things: "Najat was working as a prostitute and was caught in the very act of picking up a client. We advise that she be stoned to death..." Two muttawas (Morality Police) delivered the document to Prince Salman, the governor of Riyadh. He jotted down a verdict to match the suggestion, then signed it. Najat was to be publicly stoned to death the following Friday.

Mimi, a house-maid from the Philippines, was denounced by the wife of Karin's lover. She was picked up by the "Morality Police" and also stoned to death. These stories happen very often, and people are defenseless towards them. There are no courts in Saudi Arabia, and the princes there possess absolute power.

Nisrin, a Bangladeshi woman, who married a Saudi, was deported and the marriage was annulled. Before that she was raped by one of those "Morality Police". A Saudi who belongs to an important tribe, cannot just marry anyone.

Mohammed, a Syrian truck-driver had both hands amputated for allegedly stealing the truck he was driving.

Very few atrocities like the ones I'm reporting reach the international media. In March, 2002, the Saudi Morality Police prevented school girls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing the correct Islamic dress. As a result 15 girls were burned alive." My stories are a pattern that happen day in day out.

When you study Islam; the Quran and Shari'a, and live in Saudi Arabia for a while, you find out that the Saudis are in fact applying the Islamic law. "The woman who commits adultery must be stoned to death."(Quran, 36:18). "And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise." (Quran 5:38). For more details, check out http://europenews.dk/en/node/13862and "Understanding Muhammad" by Ali Sina.

The book also shows that not only the Saudi regime and its religious fanatic establishment are oppressive, but also other groups in society: Saudi men oppress and ill-treat women, and Saudi men and women oppress and abuse foreigners.

When I delivered the manuscript of this book to friends outside of Saudi Arabia, asking them to read it over, their response was uniform: they shook their heads in disbelief. Nobody in the civilized world seemed able to fathom the extent of the arbitrariness and atrocities to which victims in Saudi Arabia are subjected. To them, it was incredible. Some remarked that I was telling stories about the actions of monsters from another planet. They could not believe that any human could act as a Saudi corrupted by power does.

The Book is available on www.amazon.com and in your bookstore.

Lizzy

Such refined hair-splitting by the good diplomat! He lost me completely with his *introducing* senior members of Hamas to Sinn Fein. How civilised! How congenial! I can just hear Sir Jeremy in an aside to one of his colleagues: "Psychopaths get on so well together, don't you think?"

europhobe

how do you react to this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/13/islam-uksecurity

Yehuda

Adam B., those who want Israel to talk to Hamas might not be overlooking Hamas's declared intentions to destroy Israel and kill as many Jews as it can.
Maybe they want Hamas to do their dirty work for them.
This speculation would reflect paranoia were it not for the precedent of "the world" collaborating with the Nazis in the murder of one-third of the Jewish People, including one and a half million children.
Back then urbane (and not so urbane) Great British personages were denying refuge to Jews in the only spot on the globe's face that was willing to accept the refugees in large numbers, namely The Land of Israel.
Maybe Sir Jeremy, similarly to his illustrious forebears, thinks that, in order to "solve today's Jewish problem",which so complicates world affairs and imperils perceived British interests, "decent realists" should sacrifice the Jews once more to , this time around, Islamofascist forces.
Given the egregious lies, distortions and half-truths of this presumably well-informed noble knight, this hypothesis is not so fanciful, is it?

Biba

As an antidote to the Channel 4 News/BBC News axis of sucking up to evil, American Thinker is providing almost daily essays that cut through the cant of fools like Sir Jeremy AgreewithHamasalot and their media acoloytes:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/01/even_arabs_will_benefit_if_isr.html

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/01/ending_the_gaza_war.html

JJS

wagner, why not choose a non de plume that does not tell everyone — before they even get to read your contribution — exactly what it is going to be about? Or are you trying to save us the bother of having to waste attention on your anti-Jewish bias?

Louise

Rosemary, thank you for that.
I know that in Australia the ABC (Oz's equivalent of the BBC) is as malevolent and partisan in its reporting of the Gaza conflict as the BBC is. Like the BBC, it has long been in the business of demonising Israel and dealing in half-truthes.
We must all continue to press home the essential facts about Hamas:
- its Charter is anntisemitic, Jihadist, nihilistic, calling for the destruction of Israel and the extermination of Jews
- it uses Palestinians as human shields, and the numbers of civilians killed owing to its wickedness is part of its warfare (in this case its propaganda warfare and its recruitment warfare) against the little Jewish State that it means to destroy
- it steals food and provisions for its own operatives and families
- it uses the tunnels beneath Gaza as air raid shelters for its own people, while the rest of the Palestinian population are afforded no such protection
- it has summarily executed countless Palestinians who oppose it, or are accused of doing so, including casualties in hospital (something the Norwegian doctor, M. Gilbert, so often interviewed by the media neglects to tell us
- it has introduced barbaric Islamic legal punishments, including death and lashing, for a range of "offences" by the residents of Gaza, thus adding to the general misery of the population
- it has links with the notorious Muslim Brotherhood and other groups which want to see the dominance of Islam throughout the world

andy c

Anybody know the latest casualty figures in Gaza?

How many women and children has Israel killed as of now?

Edward

I note from reading the Hamas Charter of 1988, the same year that Pan Am 103 was bombed, that Hamas considers Freemasons, the Lions and Rotary clubs "Zionists".

I also note that the nazis of WW2 hated Freemasons.

Seems that Hamas and the nazis have a lot in common.

MathewP

Thank goodness - there are sane Israelis who have a grasp of what is happening. Please read Uri Avnery's article. He cannot be accused of being anti-Semitic even by Israel’s most rabid supporters. He is honest and self-reflective though, something so many writing on these pages should try to be. A little more than the Israeli MP, Israel Beiteinu chairman Avigdor Lieberman, who has today called for Israel to ‘do to the Gaza what the US did to Japan’ in the Jerusalem Post. Does he want to go nuclear? What do Melanie’s supporters think of this? I suspect many of you would secretly (or maybe not so secretly) applaud this, crave it even. Personally, I find such extremists and zealots absolutely terrifying, at least as scary as the jihadists people on these pages so often rail against. Here is the link to Uri Avnery’s article
http://www.antiwar.com/avnery/?articleid=14056
Please recognise the grotesque lies of Israel for what they are - Hamas has been firing rockets for eight years and Israeli has been "restrained" during that time we hear. What a monstrous lie. Thousands of Palestinians have died in those eight years and on November 4 Israel broke the ceasefire killing several Palestinians. By the way, the lie that Israel only kills in defence or even retaliation is exposed superbly by a scientific analysis of which side has broken the ceasefire most in the past few years. Read the link Zayn posted on another thread:
Zayn
"The Real Ceasefire breakers: The myths destroyed once and for all in MIT Professor Nancy Kanwisher analytical report
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-kanwisher/reigniting-violence-how-d_b_155611.html”

JTB

andy c : not as many as the number of Israeli civilians killed by their neighbours over the years. I know how much you care.....

Biba

Ah, yes, and would this be the MathewP who says he would become violent to protect his own children?

Funny he doesnâ™t extend such privilege to Israeli parents.

Jim Carr

According to Greenstock, Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.
Nuff said.

Charles

Yehuda,
Re. "the only spot on the globe's face..etc", it seems that there was a proposal during the war to use British Uganda as a refuge for Jews fleeing Europe. I know nothing about any of this, but there is something on the Wikipedia page ('British Uganda Programme'). Do remember also that Palestine was only a refuge because the British Army won the battle at El Alamein, and it was a close run thing.

Edward

andy c: Anybody know how many Palestinian children and women who dishonored their family and gays and "collaborators" and Fatah members and kuffirs has Hamas killed as of now?

Anybody know how many Hamas fighters posing as civilians have died?

Dixon

andy c
January 14th, 2009 12:13pm
Anybody know the latest casualty figures in Gaza?
How many women and children has Israel killed as of now?"

He's given up trying to produce arguments!

Louise

Edward, spot on. The authoritarian Right - whether in France, Germany, or elsewhere on the Continent - has always had an implacable hatred of Jews and of Freemasons, something that has nurtured nutcase conspiracy theorists everywhere and which has come full circle with Hamas. I believe the first to allege that Jews and Freemasons were agents of a gigantic world conspiracy was an unbalanced and unpleasant character in Tsarist Russia who, to curry favour with ruling circles, wrote a pamphlet to that effect about 1860.

Martha

“Does he want to go nuclear?”

No, he doesn’t, MathewP. But you knew that anyway, you just thought you’d ask that disingenuous question to smear him. What a nasty piece of work you’re turning out to be.

Japan, sad to say, had to be overpowered to make it back off — and the same must be done to Hamas.

And, yes, you seem to think your rights as a parent supersede those of Israelis, who know that it is enshrined in Hamas’ charter that all their children should be killed.

Imagine if anyone said the same things about your children. No doubt we’d all have to hear you sobbing (again).

Tony

Oh Dear! The Spectator is leaning to the left now. At about ten am this morning I contributed a thread that directly criticised Muslims in Britian and I see it has not been loaded onto this blog yet, despite me being a regular contributor who has never had a contribution rejected. The Immams shadow is spreading!!

Peter Burman

Real this WSJ article about the West's proxy war against Israel: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123171179743471961.html#articleTabs%3Darticle

MathewP

Martha,
I wonder if you're as ill-informed about the Middle east situation as you are about WWII. Japan surrendered on the same terms AFTER Hiroshima and Nagasaki as it had offered several weeks BEFORE. Check it out for yourself, but, of course, you wouldn't want anything as inconvenient as the truth to get in the way of your one-sided rant. There is a parallel though - the nuclear holocaust visited on the citizens of those two cities (which you defend - nice!!!) was intended as a show of power to intimidate all (mostly the Soviet Union) who might challenge the USA. We are witnessing a similarly situation here as Israel and her American sponsors use the blood of Palestinians brought about by devastating military force as a bargaining chip in their geopolitical chess game.

N

Howard, i'm sure someone has commented to you already but i really don't want to read all 110 posts. Israel doesn't allow journalists in first of all because when journalists go into a war zone the soldiers there now have to worry about them and protect instead of doing their own job. Let's face, some journalists suck, and i highly doubt all of the journalists in war zones care about the events, they just want "the story" and will endanger soldiers live just to get it. Do some reading about the US in iraq and reporters, you'll find that reporters lied to make stories more interesting and just get in the way. Second, Israel obviously knows that Hamas wants to get on tv, that's how they spread their messages and propoganda. Without the means to broadcast their message they cannot garner followers. When journalists show the news the inexplicably broadcast the propoganda. Dude, Israel is fighting this war because the PM wants to stay in power, quit listening to the liberal BS from America.

Raymond Joseph Douglas

On the daily politics today,Chris hulme treated the elderly Norman Tebbit disgracefully,when he dared to suggest that we have among us those who want an alternative legal system and will not integrate. The liberal/academic establishment are both dishonest and dangerous in their prejudice and desire to disparage those who will not think as they do !

Bert Viola

MathewP: Grateful if you could provide evidence to support your assertion that 'Japan' - by which I mean anyone with the actal legal authority to accept or reject the Allied demand for surrender - offered before the nuclear attacks to surrender on the terms it eventually accepted.

The imperial cabinet did not speak with one voice, and was split on surrender terms. I believe Togo rejected unconditional surrender in late July; and provisional aceptance of the Potsdam terms was not made until 12 August.

Just asking.

Davod

"There is a parallel though - the nuclear holocaust visited on the citizens of those two cities (which you defend - nice!!!) was intended as a show of power to intimidate all (mostly the Soviet Union) who might challenge the USA."

Silly boy!

The ferocious fighting of the Japanese on Iwo Jima and Okinawa convinced the good guys that the allied casualties would be horrendous if they invaded the Japanese home islands. One million was the estimate.

That the good guys would eventually prevail is undisputed. That civilian deaths would probably exceed the estimate of allied deaths is also undisputed.

The latest estimate of total casualties at Nagasaki and Hiroshima approaches 200,000.

The two atomic bombs saved lives.

George

MathewP,

I looked up information about the Japanese surrender at the end of WWII. According to this source: http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/japansurrender.htm, you are wrong. Why am I NOT surprised?

Martha

No MathewP, I’m not ill-informed about anything, but you clearly are – mainly because you’re so embarrassed at the contents of the Hamas charter that you keep cowardly running away from. As long as you kids are OK, that’s fine. Stuff Israeli kids. And now the ambit of your spite extends to telling some hoary old lie about a non-existent Japanese ‘peace’ offer, a far Left chestnut that came out of nowhere in the 70s and has since been ripped to shreds by any historian worth their salt.

Your suggestion that “Japan surrendered on the same terms AFTER Hiroshima and Nagasaki as it had offered several weeks BEFORE” is sliced to pieces by Robert James Maddox in "The Greatest Hoax In American History: Japan's Alleged Willingness to Surrender During the Final Months of World War II":

“A staple of Hiroshima Revisionism has been the contention that the government of Japan was prepared to surrender during the summer of 1945, with the sole proviso that its sacred emperor be retained. President Harry S. Truman and those around him knew this through intercepted Japanese diplomatic messages, the story goes, but refused to extend such an assurance because they wanted the war to continue until atomic bombs became available. The real purpose of using the bombs was not to defeat an already-defeated Japan, but to give the United States a club to use against the Soviet Union. Thus Truman purposely slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Japanese, not to mention untold thousands of other Asians and Allied servicemen who would perish as the war needlessly ground on, primarily to gain diplomatic advantage.

“One might think that compelling substantiation would be necessary to support such a monstrous charge, but the revisionists have been unable to provide a single example from Japanese sources. What they have done instead amounts to a variation on the old shell game. They state in their own prose that the Japanese were trying to surrender without citing any evidence and, to show that Truman was aware of their efforts, cite his diary entry of July 18 [1945] referring to a "telegram from Jap Emperor asking for peace."

“There it is! The smoking gun! But it is nothing of the sort. The message Truman cited did not refer to anything even remotely resembling surrender. It referred instead to the Japanese foreign office's attempt (under the suspicious eyes of the military) to persuade the Soviet Union to broker a negotiated peace that would have permitted the Japanese to retain their prewar empire and their imperial system (not just the emperor) intact. No American president could have accepted such a settlement, as it would have meant abandoning the United States' most basic war aims.”

So it’s you who doesn’t want to let the facts of history get in your way. So long as you can revise it to your twisted, distorted ends, chanting revisionist lies in the hope you can drown out the truth of what’s in that disgusting Hamas charter.

You’d rather remain ignorant of the truth about what happened to Japan, just as you’re unable to deal with the murderous spite of the Hamas charter. You sobbing, sanctimonious little coward.

Observer

Let us remember the long history of terrorism in Palestine. Here is an extract from Hansard, 31 July 1947:

" It is with deep regret that I confirm the reports which have been current during the past 24 hours that the two British sergeants, Paice and Martin, abducted at Nathanya on 12th July, have been murdered by Jewish terrorists.

I received today the following telegram from the High Commissioner for Palestine: "Most deeply regret to inform you that the two bodies were found at 9 o'clock this morning in an eucalyptus grove at Umm Uleiqa, near Beit Lid. They were hanging from two trees. Notices were pinned to the bodies saying that the men had been hanged by the National Military Organisation as British spies. The first body was cut down by an Army captain, and as he bent over it a small bomb exploded, injuring him in the face. The surrounding area was found to have been mined." In the long history of violence in Palestine there has scarcely been a more dastardly act than the cold-blooded and calculated murder of these innocent young men after holding them as hostages for more than a fortnight. I can only express what I know to be the deep feelings of horror and revulsion shared by all of us here at this barbarous crime. I am sure that this House would also wish me to convey their most sincere sympathy with the families and friends of the murdered men in the anguish they have endured during the days of waiting and now in their irreparable loss."

Observer

Further to the long history of terrorism in Palestine, here is an MI5 file relating to the Stern Group which was absorbed into the Israeli armed forces on the creation of Israel:

"File refs KV 5/29-32

This collection of reconstituted files on the activities of the Stern Group (or Stern Gang, known as Lehi in Hebrew) records the Security Service's interest in this group's activities from 1941 to 1951. The Group carried out a series of attacks against British officials, police and soldiers, most notably the assassination of the British Minister Resident in the Middle East, Lord Moyne, and the murder of 28 British soldiers in a bomb attack in February 1948. Perhaps its most notorious attack, though, was the assassination of the United Nations negotiator Count Folke Bernadotte (right) in Paris in October 1948."

Louise

Charles, you seem somewhat confused. The proposal to make part of East Africa for a Jewish Homeland was made in the infant years of the 20th century. Long before El Alamein, in the War to End All Wars, Allenby's troops had taken Jerusalem, thus paving the way for the British Mandate.
And, yes, Observer, the murder of the two young British sergeants (Martin, incidentally, was Jewish) was a dastardly, abhorrent act. But you draw a long bow if you consider it analogous to what is happening at present.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Sami Alrabaa, maybe it is time the left wing liberals in the west move to Saudi Arabia, they will see how attractive life can be

Ellien

Edward: Jews, Freemasons, Zionists - it's straight out of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Hitler quoted extensively from it for Mein Kampf and so have Hamas for their Charter. The Protocols are hugely popular throughout the Arab world with TV serials based on it, thus spreading the BIG LIE about the aims of Jewish world domination. Sami Alrabaa (thank you for your contribution; I presume you are genuine) might agree with me that these claims about so-called Jewish domination are part of the "political schizophrenia" that drives such a reversal - i.e that it is actually the muslim extremists who are seeking world domination for Islam. And Jeremy Greenstock, who portrays Hamas as lovely, well intentioned, innocent democratically elected politicians (hah)with no suggestion of any links to terrorism, is just as afraid of the force of radical Islam today as are all those other Western apologists, it's just that none of them know how scared they are, or would have the courage to recognise their fears.

Adam B.

MatthewP, only one problem with your last post - it is ALL utterly untrue. Please cite your sources for your ridiculous claims. And by the way, more people died in the firebombing of Tokyo than in either atomic blast. But then again you're a selective pacifist (ie you're not, unless Israel tries to defend itself). I have never seen your condemnation of Hamas - all your vitriol runs one way, which says a lot about you. And excuse me, but to attack Martha about her knowledge - you have shown absolutely no in-depth knowledge of the ME other than what you've been told on the BBC or read in leftist websites. Have you even been there?

Louise

Here's an interesting insight into Hamas from an expat Israeli who seems to know a thing or two:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/14/opinion/14goldberg-1.html

Adam B.

Yehuda, you're absolutely right.

Adam B.

Well done Martha - that should send him packing - that is, if he knows when he's beaten.

MathewP

Yes matha you now it all...
Let's consult some of the key players in the affair....
"The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan." Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet.[61]
"The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons... The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion , and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children." Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman."

Barry

The odious man made similar statements on Channel4 News, claiming Hamas was not a terrorist group - Sheikh Jon Snow nodded in agreement.

Herbert Thornton

It is absurd for Greenstock to assert that the aim of Hamas is merely "resistance". That claim turns truth on its head. The fact is that Hamas has driven Israel, at last, to offer resistance.

It is also a fundamental mistake to see this purely as a conflict between Israel and Gaza. It is not.

The real conflict is between the Islamic world and the Infidel world. The Koran requires the subjugation of all infidels and for the killing of Jews. Iran has obeyed the Koran by smuggling massive amounts of military supplies into Gaza. The battle there is just part of the current Islamic Jihad's aggressive front line.

Israel appears to have at last realised - as did Kemal Attaturk - that the only effective way to counter the perpetual repetition of Islamic Jihads is to use force.

It is in our interests to encourage Israel to do the job thoroughly and adequately - and especially so when Iran is hell bent on obtaining nuclear weapons.

MathewP

Is that noise I can hear Adam B and Martha eating humble pie? Or are the military leaders of the US in WWII part of the "left-wing Islamo-fascist pro-Hamas" (translation = "objective people")conspiracy too?

MathewP

By the way...what are your responses to the fact that Israel massively helped to create Hamas in the 1970's to undermine the PLO? It worked in an almost identical way to Afghanistan, where it is common knowledge that Western intelligence created the mujahadeen to fight the Russians. Don't believe me, just ask Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".
Thoughts please....my first is "you reap what you sow"
Martha, I don't need to resort to childish insults by the way. If you stopped being hysterical and actually examined the evidence you might be surprised.

Wyn

MatthewP, your name suggests that you are of Western origin. I cannot believe it. You miss no opportunity to denigrate the West whilst completely ignoring a multitude of major injustices in the world that have nothing to do with the West. I can only conclude that you either have a severe case of self-loathing or that, in your own small convoluted world, you are doing your best to undermine the democracies in any way that you can for motives that are unclear but that are certainly open to speculation.

Charles

Louise,
My earlier response to your comments seems to have gone astray. If you check the reference I provided previously, you will find information about the WW2 British Uganda proposal.

MathewP

Wyn, I am Western - I live in a small country about the size of Israel. It's called Wales and I am intensely proud of my heritage. What I am ashamed of (and what denigrates the West)are the murderous foreign policies that we have exported for some centuries now. Can I remind you of a few....the US, that beacon of democracy, was founded on the back of two real genocides. The first was the mass slaughter of Native Americans to take their land and the second was the use of African slaves to work that land. Almost every corner of the globe has suffered from Western imperialism through the ages and it continues today. Western policies have left countless millions dead in Korea, Vietnam and Iraq to name just three states, and all these Western wars have been fought far away from Western shores - so much for defence, sounds more like attack to me. And its about geopolitical control of resources. And everyone knows it. And yes, it helps keep me and my family living a comfortable lifestyle. But I'd actually feel more comfortable with a little less wealth and the knowledge that my comfort was not at the expense of so many others. I love the positive things Britain has given to the world -Shakespeare or football, for example - but who could love what we are exporting with our foreign policy based on a ruthless use of military might and hypocritical double standards.

MathewP

And wyn, please feel free to indulge in ill-informed speculation. I don't quite know what you are referring to, or what sinister motives you ascribe to me. Please elaborate

The Uglier American

MathewP:

Excellent post! You managed to squeeze in every verse and chorus from the "Why I hate Western Civilization" songbook. How do you manage to get through the day, given your obvious sense of overwheming guilt? Take heart- over the next decade when Sharia Law is adopted in the UK you can tell your local Imam how bad you feel over what your forebearers have done.

Yehuda

Mathew P, are you saying that because Israel tolerated Hamas in the days when it was still masquerading as a "social welfare" agency, Israel should today tolerate its aggression, which brings disaster upon the very "constituency" which it claims to represent?

davidrev

Greenstock is either a fool or a bastard. Could he be both?

Dana

Patricia, have you ever been to Sderot?

Louise

Charles, thankyou. I will take a look.

Bert Viola

@MathewP: I doubted you'd answer my post with anything substantive. ADM Nimitz's comments do nothing to support your case: he merely suggests that someone in the Japanese govt was prepared to surrender on terms, a very different notion from your original assertion, that they were prepared to accept the terms under which they eventually surrendered. The fact that Nimitz suggests that the nuclear attacks were not instrumental in Japanese calculations in a 'purely military' sense also is immaterial: the attacks were intended to influence the political leadership and the hard-liners in the cabinet, not the military in the field - the vast majority of whom would hear only rumours of the use of the weapons anyway, and even then not for several days.

And as to Leahy's comment, 'the Japanese' were probably ready to surrender in large numbers: the decisive part of their leadership was not prepared to surrender on the terms you suggest, nor to articulate that willingness clearly. Leahy was concerned that demands for *unconditional* surrender would force Japan to fight on (he was keen to limit Russian influence in the theatre) and so would almost certainly have advised Truman to accept something less than the Potsdam terms. This was politically unacceptable - something that, as a military adviser to a democratic government, he just had to accept.

By making these wild assertions, you do violence to your other points. Undoubtedly, intimidating Russia and limiting her influence in the Pacific theatre was a driver for US policy: but do you really think the post-war history of the Pacific would have been improved by greater Russian influence in Japan?

On your later points: parallels with the US support for the mujihade'en in Afghanistan and Israel's alleged use of Hamas to marginalise the PLO are terribly sophisticated: you'd be a great guy to have around ten years *after* a problem.

As it is, decision-makers have to work with the problem set they face, and it's usually a choice of bad options and worse options. The real problem with comments like yours is that they are motivated not by a desire to see Israel, or the US, pursue a course of action that will more effectively deliver its goals: it's merely to ensure that whatever action they do take is derided and de-legitimized.

Martha

You don’t hear any noise, MathewP, apart from the self-aggrandising rubbish that churns about the inside that tiny mind of yours. Pardon me if I’m not here to babysit you every five minutes but I happen to have a life.

You want me to look at the ‘key players’ behind that decision. Yes, and who were they? The politicians. Their aim was to achieve a real a real and lasting peace, which meant Japan accepting the terms of surrender set out in the Potsdam Declaration that they drew up. No less.

Senior military American personnel were indeed in no doubt of their military strength over Japan, but without surrender on the right terms Japan could not be trusted, that is why the politicians did what they did – and Japan was left in no doubt of what would happen if it refused accept real and meaningful surrender.

I suppose it’s hardly surprising you find it difficult to deal with the contents of the Potsdam Declaration because you’ve got form on turning a blind eye to official declarations.

Witness your difficulty in coming to terms with the contents of the Hamas charter that demands the destruction of each and every Jew. You know you can’t refute that so you pretend it doesn’t exist. Just like the Potsdam Declaration. The latter secured your safety and freedom but you don’t want to know about it and the former threatens the life of all Jews, but stuff it, you don’t want to know about that either. Perhaps if you took your own advice and “ stopped being hysterical and actually examined the evidence you might be surprised.”

Since you’re so clearly ignorant of The Potsdam Declaration, here’s a history lesson on it:

http://cadillactight.wordpress.com/2008/08/09/hiroshima-nagasaki-and-the-potsdam-declaration/

“Japan was warned that it faced ‘prompt and utter destruction’ two weeks before the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Japan was warned that its enemies were committed to the fight against it, and that those enemies would continue its aggression until Japan surrendered or was destroyed. Japan was warned that immediate surrender was its only option.

“But the leaders of Japan chose to ignore those warnings, and their people were forced to bear the brunt of that decision.”

MathewP

Uglier by name, uglier by nature - I have no guilt at all, because I do not endorse the policies I criticise. You, on the other hand, should feel guilt, if you have a conscience that is. And - even in your most paronoid and delusional moments - do you really believe there will be Sharia law in the UK in 10 years. That is highly unlikely, and I sincerely doubt whether the 58 million non-Muslims of the UK would submit to Sharia Law, even in the very improbable event that there were enough willing Muslims to try and implement it. I don't doubt some extremists fantasise about introducing Sharia law to the whole world, but then again plenty of US extremists (ie neocons and their supporters)fantasise about exporting the execrable US culture to the whole world, and they are willing to use massive military force to achieve it. Roll on obesity and bad TV and corporate militarism for the whole globe. And all in the name of "freedom and democracy"! (yeah right - more like in the name of fat dollars)

MathewP

Martha - let me say this very clearly for once and for all. I do not suport Hamas. I cannot stand extremists of any description. I include Islamists, Zionists, Communists, feminists, fascists and religious zealots and ideologues of all descriptions. I prefer to be open-minded and treat every situation as unique and requiring objective, unbiased analysis. I know this is anathema to the people on here who have an emotional or religious or familial attachment to Israel, but I have no such attachment and have the luxury of being objective. You should take a deep breath and then try it, it's very liberating and you might well lose some of the negative and hate-inspired emotions you appear to be governed by.

Tony

On and on you bleat, MathewP, but no-one has accused you of directly supporting Hamas, only of the fact that you consistently attack Israel without ever acknowledging why it does what it does.

Since when has Martha evinced a hate-filled emotion? Never. That's when. You just can't deal with this:

“The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement – Hamas”

“Article One”

“The Islamic Resistance Movement: Islam is its way.”

So that being the case, this is Hamas’s way:

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."(48:29, The Koran)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (5:51, The Koran)

“Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." (9:73, The Koran)

“Article Seven” of the Hamas Charter:

“'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him'”

Nothing to do with "fat dollars" at all, everything to do with a cosseted Western brat biting the hand that protects him.

Adam B.

MatthewP, do you even know what Zionism is? You say you don't like Hamas, yet all your posts only condemn Israel. You are indoctrinated, and frankly unthinking.

Excellent posts Martha and bert - I think it is you MtthewP who should be scoffing humble pie.

Frank P

MatthewP (12.21pm)

After that pious little essay from the pulpit I gather you are a missionary despatched to spread reason and love among the heathens of Melaphillipia. An open minded Welshman? Only in ovine considerations, in my experience. Foxtrot Oscar you sanctimonious cymraeg creep!

wrighty

Wow, such hate from the Israeli-firsters here !!
All this in the defence of IDF war crimes.
Please keep it up, the more people who read these rants, the better.

Adam B.

MatthewP, your last post is so arrogant! Only you are capable of objectivity, because everyone else is swewed by outside considerations. Talk about big-headed! What's it like to be so impressed with yourself?

Ronnie

Maybe one day, Frank P, you'll manage to construct an effective political response.

Ellien

MatthewP: Pathetic. Myopic non-thinking. As if there's only one side to every story, one way of looking at it and understanding it. Very black and white (oops, not politically correct), very good - bad, with no shades of grey or other nuances in between. It is called "concrete thinking" which suggests no thinking at all. Real thinking requires being able to see various perspectives, to put oneself in the others' shoes, to have empathy, to be balanced in one's conclusions. These pass you by, and some others on this blog, though lots of excellent contributions, and very interesting to read.

Wyn

MatthewP. Quite a revelation on your part. It seems that you believe that the only wicked people in the world are running the Western democracies. You even have the audacity to suggest that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were deliberately sacrificed on the altar of US imperialism, quite an assertion. I wonder what would have happened if the kindly Japanese government of the time had acquired an atomic bomb before the US? And what happens when a nation has unfettered ascendancy over others? Look at what is happening elsewhere. It is unfortunately a trait of human nature that you are ascribing only to one section of the population of the world. What about Russia that she now has virtual monopoly of gas supplies to Europe? The list goes on, the reality is that power exposes human nature at its worst, no matter where one is from. You use this site to vent your anger on the very society that nurtures you. Do not believe that the alternative society you seem to be leaning towards will be better for you. And never underestimate the power of your potential enemies. You seem to have digressed from attacking Israel for her actions in defending herself, (and that is what that nation is doing and has done for as long as I can remember), and are now using this space to attack the US and Israel and blame them for every concievable problem besetting this troubled world. You are in for a rude awakening if you really believe that the alternative will be better. Israel is fighting some of the most savage creatures on the planet. That is the reality and if you wish to see Israel fail, then I for one am not with you.

MathewP

Frank P - I'd rather be a "sheep-shagger" than support child killers. Oh, and grow up -sticks and stones might break my bones ...(just ask the IDF -they face "terrorists" wielding stones all the time...)

MathewP

Ellien, are you seriously suggesting the pro-Israel posaters on here are balanced and display empathy? have you read the posts???!!! That is quite honestly the most risible thing I think I have ever heard. Now, I know you learnt some big words at school today, but I'm not sure you understand what "balanced" and "empathy" actually mean. Never mind, for homework try looking up "delusional".

MathewP

Wyn, thank you for your at least courteous reply - you have more manners than most on this site. I don't disagree that a world run by Islamists is one I would not want. But that does NOT justify the horrors being visited on the inhabitants of Gaza. You seem like a reasonable person - just open your eyes to the reality of 1.5 million people being brutalised. Little food, little water, no electricity, nowhere to bury the dead, explosions and gunfire all around, surrounded by death and destruction, not knowing where death might strike next. Can you actually imagine that? Have some humanity, Israel, and the world might be more sympathetic to your position. What is hapening now is guaranteeing international support for Israel will fade very quickly from this point, and the ruth is that you all know it in your hearts - that is why I am so regularly insulted on these pages, because the truth of what I and many millions believe is threatening your carefully constructed (and false) world view.

phil

Why we bother talking to this mathew p is getting beyond me the man is an ignorant fool -and truth is not in his vocabulary -I still await his promised replies -oh I will do it tomorrow phil-well its manana with him it never comes -meanwhile he states "I cannot stand extremists of any description. I include Islamists, Zionists, Communists, feminists, fascists and religious zealots and ideologues " he obviously has,nt a clue what a Zionist is .he has his own interpretation which is one of arrogant idiocy -he hasn,t even bothered to look it up !

If he just said I do not agree with the Israeli methods ,that is an opinion and he is entitled to it ,but when he starts pontificating about things he knows nothing of ,then he is line to be disabused ,and that is what he is getting and well deserved too .

Don't you all feel frustrated debating with a man who does not know anything about his subject viz Japan /surrender ,certainly nothing about Arab/Israeli history ,just soundbites from anti Israeli sites ,perhaps he is practising for a job as England soccer manager when sr. Capello leaves .he has certainly shown an aptitude for that.I have some very intelligent Welsh friends ,I think they would be rather shocked by this by product of Welsh lamb .
I don't speak Welsh so I dont know what frank p called him but he seems to have volunteered to be a sheep shagger at 5.16(his own words Pete) so I hope he has his wellies on . although its a bit hard on the sheep ..

Adam B.

Phil, I notice he's quietly retreared about Japan/end of war, realizing he's on a sticky wicket, like evrything else he says. Maybe he'll answer you once he's done enough research to match his ignorant views. When you're cheered on by wrighty who only speaks in slogans, you know you're in trouble! I find it funny they complain about politeness, when they employ he most hateful and manipulative language.

MathewP

Phil and Adam, or perhaps Dumb and Dumber might be appropriate - have you seen the events in Gaza today? Hospitals on fire, aid warehouses burning, media centre bombed. Warms your heart doesn't it? If you live in southern Israel I'm sure you'd be amongst the residents and onlookers who gather at locations with a good view just outside the miltary zone on the border to quaff fast food whilst watching the slaughter as if it were a depraved sporting event. I think Israel has the support of precisely one country in the world...the US (and perhaps the other English speaking ex-colonies) who has repeatedly vetoed resolutions registering the disgust of the rest of the world at Israeli actions. Even lapdog British ministers are deserting your cause like rats from a sinking ship. Why not read an Israeli's view on Haaretz.com. he is called Gideon Levy and he's pretty rational and sensible. I think you will find some of the rabid reactions to his article by supporters of the onslaught have a familiar sound to readers of this column.

MathewP

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055574.html
for the Gideon Levy article

Ellien

Yes, it is indeed tragic and horrible what is being visited on the Palestinians of Gaza, but they are hardly innocent victims of Israel. Some or many of them may be innocent victims of Hamas and their brutal, inhumane regime, and my heart bleeds for them. However, a majority voted for Hamas, and stood by while weapons and rocket launchers were installed in their houses, their mosques, their schools. They lobbed all those thousands of rockets at Israel, targeting civilians. They cheered and celebrated whenever a tragedy befell the Israelis. They promoted the teaching of hatred for Jews and anything Jewish to their children, in their homes, their nurseries and schools. They poisoned their childrens' minds with lies and vile claims about Jews, drawing on their holy book the Kor'an and on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. They support leaders whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel and all the Jews in it. All very nice and friendly indeed.
While Israelis spent the last sixty years being creative and productive despite the hatred all around them, what did those Arabs, who now call themselves Palestinians, do with their talents? They wasted them on hatred and destruction, not least the destruction of their childrens' humanity.

Adam B.

MatthewP, that is hardly an intelligible post. Your hatred is running rampant, depriving you of rational thought and exposing your intellectual poverty. Precisely no-one on this blog has celebrated the tragic deaths of innocents, so why do you say "warms your heart"? How utterly disgusting. You say that Israelis are looking at the destruction in Gaza, eating fast food. I think you are suffering from amnesia. On 9/11, Palestinians in Gaza openly celebrated in the streets, celebrating the murder of 3000 innocent people. When Palestinian suicide bombers blew themselves up in cafes, restaurants, and buses full of children, turning them into shards of flesh, thousands of Palestinians again openly celebrated, handing out sweets in the streets. You will not see celebrations in Israel at the deaths of innocents, but you will see relief that after 8 years their government is doing something to quash the racist, anti-semitic, nihilist organization that is Hamas. Again, as you are not a pacifist, you are a complete hypocrite to say that war is awful. We know. Apparently for you, it is only awful when Israel conducts it. I feel it is a safe bet to say that you did not write about your outrage over the years of suicide bombings (which deliberately target specifically civilians), your outrage only awakens when Israel finally does something to defend itself. And as for Gideon Levy, he told Condoleeza Rice that Israel "should be raped." His words. No doubt your hateful and irrational sentiments.

phil

Adam B if I were Matthew I would be quite fed up, even he must now realise that he is continuing to pose as a man of compassion,which I don't doubt btw ,but a man who has been deluded into taking a position which he cannot back up -He does not know the history of the area he is shedding tears for and has assumed it is the innocent Palestinians ,if I thought that I would push my point too .----------

Maybe after this he will read LEON URIS ,s book THE HAJ ,MAYBE EVEN EXODUS.,TRY THE HISTORY OF THE 1967 WAR ,AND THEN 1973 ,1982 in LEBANON -WILL HE REMEMBER THE MUNICH MASSACRE OF THE OLYMPIC TEAM ,ENTEBBE well that's a good start for him .when he has finished that we can tell him about the grand mufti who lived with hitler during the second world war and the Arab landlords who sold their unwanted land to the Jews whilst living in luxury in Paris and Berlin .Has he found out about the massacres of Jews living in "PALESTINE" a part of the ottoman empire ,a land that never !! had a nation called PALESTINIANS .Does he even know that the "PALESTINIANS" WERE JORDANIANS who suddenly became Palestinians when Jordan had them removed .----------

Now that is not to say that we do not wish for them to have a peaceful and happy life in a state of their own ,its our wish to have them as happy and prosperous neighbours enjoying trade and friendship with a viable and safe Israel ,an Israel that could be so helpful to them in order to attain the technology and good health that they would aspire too.is that too much for us to ask?-If we get lucky Mathew will admit that perhaps he was wrong and that there are two sides to every story .

Adam I admire your energy and persistence ,we Jews are fortunate to have friends of your quality and I am grateful -GOD bless you

Adam B.

Thank you Phil - you've been very active in fighting the haters here, and that is surely a mitzvah.

phil

Mathew p you have handed plenty out. how about a response to mine jan 16 @6.19-I think it was very reasonable ,even understanding ,so why not consider what I have said to you ,perhaps you did not know all that history ,it takes a lot of time to learn it and a lot of pain for those that had to accept it .Those victims deserve your attention too .

Augustus

Phil, your post of 16/1, 6.19pm was 'on the button' and I also find your persistence heartwarming. what a pity that public figures like Greenstock and our shameful Foreign Secretary don't want to face up to historical truth.

Had the grand mufti Hajj Amin Husseini chosen to lead his people to peace and reconciliation with their Jewish neighbours, as he has promised the British officials who appointed him to his high rank in the early 1920s, the Palestinians would have had their independent state over a substantial part of Mandate Palestine by 1948, and would have been spared the traumatic experience of dispersion and exile. And had Arafat set the PLO on the path of peace and reconciliation from the start, instead of turning it into one of the most murderous terrorist organizations in modern times, a Palestinian state could have been established in the late 1960s or early 1970s; in 1979 as a corollary to the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty; by May 1999 as part of the Oslo process; or at the very least with the Camp David Summit in 2000. Instead, Arafat transformed the territories placed under his control in the 1990s into an effective terror state from where he launched an all-out war (intifada) shortly after being offered an independent Palestinian state in the Gaza Strip and most of the West Bank, with East Jerusalem as its capital. In the process he subjected the inhabitants of these areas to a repressive and corrupt regime in the worst tradition of Arab dictatorships and plunged their standard of living to unprecedented depths.

phil

AUGUSTUS THANK YOU FOR YOUR SUPPORT I am just trying to show these hate filled people that we Jews will not walk quietly to our obliteration ,The kind thoughts of so many righteous gentiles as well as Jews give comfort in these difficult days .Someone far cleverer than me once wrote that a nation showed its values by how it treats its Jews ,or something like that .I am confident that the Uk is still a nation of decent people but its being infiltrated by the great unwashed lefties who despise anyone who can pay his/her own way .

lindambond

mathew p--i fully agree. the british jewish mp gerald kauffman. made a speech accusing the israelis of behaving like nazis.nuff said.