The astounding shallowness of Britain's Foreign Secretary

Gruntson

Well past Miliband's bedtime!

He should stick to holding bananas for the press, not make specious statements about matters in which he is clearly out of his depth.

Pip

Give me strength, this useless man is a complete twonk.

It appears half the World is asleep to the global creeping Izzie Jihad.

When are people going to wake up fgs.

Ronnie

While I agree that David Miliband exhibits a general lack of credibility in the role, it is not the job of the Foreign Secretary to go around promoting endless global war and chaos at a time of catastrophic economic instability.

Take a step back. Maybe two.

Howard

You just do get get it. This is well timed politically due to Obama coming to power next week.

It is sad that you do not see this, or the fact that there are other outlooks on the world than yours.

I think Miliband's approach is sound and, moreover, he is doing a positive and constructive job at present, which is more I can say for some.

Lee Laurie

He doesn't understand?
Maybe he does and it is all part of the greater plan for our...the West...future.

Rob Weatherill

The same used to be said about communism - that it was local and the different "struggles" could not be lumped together into a global movement. This was simply referred to as US scaremongering. The jihad is both local AND global. The latter aspect is a reaction and revulsion against (post-)modernity itself. Milband is clearly trying to lessen, so he believes quite wrongly, the "local" threat to Britain. It is for the same reason that he "disproportionately" criticises Israel for its self-defence.

King Prawn

Melanie,

As you well know, the reason why Blair was eventually forced out of office was his support for Israel during the war with Hezbollah in 2006 (do you notice that Blair is not making too much of an effort in his role of Mid East Peace Envoy to stop the current fighting). One of his main cabinet critics was one David Milliband.

I am afraid a lot of the socialist and liberal elite believe that we should support the Islamists because of perceived wrongdoings in the past. It was the same attitude in the 1930s when Hitler was allowed to do whatever he wanted because Germany was perceived to be badly treated at Versailles.

Sorry but two wrongs do not make a right. Do the likes of Milliband really think that the jihadists will go away if we don't call them terrorists or if we force Israel and India into a corner over Palestine and Kashmir.

OF COURSE NOT!

Observer

Melanie here are some facts, direct quotes, from the MI5 website about the Irgun - a terrorist organisation absorbed into the IDF:

Irgun

File refs KV 5/34-41

This collection of files documents the Security Service's monitoring of the activities of Irgun, the Jewish organisation involved or implicated in numerous acts of terrorism in the closing years of the British mandate in Palestine. The file covering the pre-war and Second World War period (KV 5/34, 1938-1946) is largely concerned with tracking the changes to the leadership of Irgun, its relationship with Zionist Revisionist groups, and assessing the strength of Irgun. The file includes reports of Irgun terrorist activities, which were suspended for most of the war (Irgun leader David Raziel served with the allies and was killed in action in 1941) but resumed in 1944, around the time that Menachem Begin assumed the leadership. The file includes an Irgun propaganda leaflet which addressed Palestine's Arab neighbours (serial 33a) and shows that Teddy Kollek, the future mayor of Jerusalem, was in contact with the Defence Security Officer in Palestine (e.g serials 57c, 63zc and 67ab).

Subsequent files focus chiefly on Irgun's post-war terrorist activities. KV 5/35 (1946) includes reports on attacks on trains and the kidnapping of British servicemen. The attack on the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, including discussion on the conflicting claims as to whether or not a warning was given, is covered in KV 5/36. This file includes a message from Kim Philby to the Security Service of 9 July 1946 warning of possible Irgun attacks against the British legation in Beirut, just before the attack on the King David. KV 5/37 includes some discussion of the possibility that Irgun might accept assistance from the Russians and the implications of this. It also includes (at serial 142a) examples of stickers posted by Irgun activists in Montevideo that were forwarded to the Security Service by Kim Philby in September 1946.

The attack on the British embassy in Rome is covered in KV 5/38 (1946-1947) which also includes at serial 169b, a letter from the Defence and Security Officer in Palestine on the Jewish interest in "Atomic Fission". The absorption of Irgun into the Jewish Defence Army and Irgun's developing relations with Hagana is covered in KV 5/39 (1947-1948). The Service's interest in Irgun declines after its dissolution, KV 5/40 and 41 mainly consider historical discussion and analysis from 1948. For instance, there is a SIME report about David Raziel's wartime service and death in Iraq at serial 327a in KV 5/40.

Pip

I will be emailing Miliband today, I hope others will do so too.

milibandd@parliament.uk

etal

An intellectual and political light weight,this mediocrity also has a brother who would lead us!

Ken

Surely no-one expects any depth from a gurning, brandisher of bananas? Another Nu Labour student union triumph...

Tony

Sorry Britain, you are the weakest link, it's time to go! A very true saying.
I am fearful that Britain has already succumbed.
Did anyone watch PM question time? Some liberal MP stood up and shouted that Israel should be charged in the Hague for war crimes; for killing women and children, starving them and denying medical facilities and fuel.
What sickened me was not this crass fools understanding of the Gaza situation but that he got a lot of 'ayes' and cheers of support from the whole house!
Oh my word, if our own leadership are this thick then what hope have we of avoiding the destruction of our homeland?

Michael

The point which really demonstrates Miliband's ignorance is his statement that the Hezbollah's grievance is the occupation of the Golan heights. Hezbollah is a Lebanese organisation and the Golan heights were captured by Israel from SYRIA. Apart from its general hostility to the "Zionist" entity, Hezbollah presents itself as a patriotic Lebanese resistance force. Once Israel withdrew to the international border Hezbollah somewhat lost its point and so claimed its aim is to liberate a small area called the Shaba Farms which Israel claims was part of Syria and which Hezbollah claims is historically Lebanese territory. This minor dispute is then the extent of Hezbollah's "local grievance" which warrants maintaining its own army, waging international terror, long-range missiles and provoking the 2006 Lebanon War. The minor nature of the justification for "resistance" is surely an indication that the organisation's real aims are more wide-reaching. So Miliband makes a straightforward error of fact. The Golan is not the Hezbollah's grievance and is not so even in their own propaganda.

Vision Aforethought

Two fairly slippery people in positions of extraordinary power and/or influence. This is most worrying.

Are we not putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum?

turn the lights of,when you leave

oh it makes me so proud that this dim wit is heading our foriegn policy."has he done enough to secure the leftie /muslim vote foe another 4 years.I despair ,i really do

Peter Turner

David Miliband is only trying to convince himself or fool himself.

The Colonel

Spot on as usual,Melanie. This article by Miliband, alongside Brown's craven approach on Gaza, tell me that an election is imminent, and the Government don't want to upset the Islamic "community leaders", who they hope will dragoon their flocks to the polls to vote Labour.

Ian C

One wonders where these 'ministers' get their information and briefing. Could it be the Arabist Foreign Office or the anti-war Labour Party? Or both? Certainy not from those in the know.

Robbit

This man (like his brother) is unspeakable. He somehow missed his vocation as a scout master running bob-a-job week.

john east

Who knows what any politician truly believes, particulary the ideologically deluded control freaks currently in power.

I always say, when in doubt follow the money, and Miliband's income depends heavily on adhering to the party line, saying what the left want to hear, and what will secure the immigrant vote.

I try not to get upset by the outpourings of these idiots. After casting one's vote it's best to ignore them and get on with one's life as best one can.

P. Hayman

I sometimes wonder how the current knot of oily appeasers would have managed in the 1930s. They'd've no doubt lined their pockets, sounded "caring" and then --- when Britain was finally occupied --- cleared off to the US to bemoan how wounded and let down they felt at Mr. Hitler's duplicity.

The Foreign Secretary isn't worthy of the title --- with his sixth-form moustache and prefect's demeanour, he should be sitting on a JCR committee. I can't bear to look at the ninny.

Indeed I'm led to conclude that, given the jaw-dropping lack of seriousness amongst its "leaders", our wretched country must now be under divine judgement. As Isaiah warned us...

"And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them."

Greg

If he thinks the "war on terror" is futile, does he agree his governments 'war on weather" aka global warming, is vastly more stupid?

phil

I fear he is too young and naive for this job ,and is fed the historical Arabism by a foreign office cadre who are blinded in the pursuit of oil,still in the shadow of the egregious Bevin .

My impression is that he is well meaning but the naivety blinds him to what is real and that is ,we are at war with militant Islam ,They tell us that constantly ,and we ignore them ,driven by our new culture of sneering blame and shame .The victims are the USA ,Israel ,India and any other nation that stands up to be counted in this war on terror -our left wing as in the thirties are leading us to a path of destruction ,just as Chamberlain ,from the right, did by ignoring Churchill,s pleas. We continue to placate Muslim excesses not only to our detriment but also to that of the decent but terrified Muslims citizens of our country ,they are more frightened to speak out than ourselves .

In this blog itself we get the most stupid comments from the young left wingers who come for a flying visit and a quick sneer ,never staying long enough to rationally discuss their points .The young are our future and sadly I despair of what we are becoming ,a nation full of fools rather than the proud and patriotic Britain that I grew up in . I do not place D B in that category ,nevertheless he has a lot to learn and little time to do it .

Geoff M

What you say Melanie is what most thinking people understand.

That is that Islam is rising and seeks to conquer the world.

It is on a 1300 year old project of domination with so much historic and present day evidence as to be undeniable.

We only need to watch the news, read the papers, look at the polls and study the words of Islamic leaders at home and abroad to see their ultimate aim.

What I would appreciate is your analysis as to why our boneheaded leaders persist in down playing the threat and sucking up to/making excuses for the Islamists.

Only when we understand THEIR motivation will we be able to counter it.

Augustus

War is not always the worst of human enterprises. Many wars are defensive and save the innocent from the predator nations who are not swayed by diplomacy. Some of the great slaughters of the 20th century -
Stalin's Great Terror, which took more than 20 million lives,
Mao's various leaps and revolutions which killed well in excess of 50 million, or Hitler's death factories that systemically eliminated an estimated 11 million - were killing fields apart from the formal battlefield.

As far back in history as we can look there have always been people who preached the cause of peace. Yet their words and gestures seem to have had precious little impact on a bellicose world. Quite often the champions of peace, instead of sticking to their convictions through thick and thin, ended up advocating war for a cause they considered right. Others were pacifists only because they knew that in case of need their countrymen would do their dirty work for them. To the extent that change did take place, it was due almost exclusively to a fear of nuclear war that would render meaningless the very object of war: victory. But plenty of murderous smaller wars have broken out since 1945 on a wide scale in the non-Western world where nuclear deterrence plays little, if any, mitigating role.
Few culture were as antithetical to military chauvinism as the European Jewish Diaspora - but out of precisely that landscape emerged the resolute Israel Defence Forces.

elixelx

In my 62 years in this mortal coil, I have seen many many wars, some declared, some undeclared, come and go....
The war on Want, the war on Poverty, the war on Aids, the war on Illiteracy, the war on Globalisation, the war on Drugs...but I have never ever heard people insist that any of these wars was not worth fighting because IT WAS A MISNOMER!
Let's face it--the war on Terror is not worth fighting because it was first declared by George W. Bush!
Mr. Miliband's article then has NOTHING to do with Government Policy and EVERYTHING to do with giving George Bush one last kick as he walks out the door!

Ivor, Chelmsford

P.Hayman I agree with you regarding biblical prophecies. I can never understand how people have all the time in the world to read and add to the screeds of opinion on blogs (even good ones like this) but 'haven't got time' to read a book, despite being written thousands of years ago, whose prophecies are right on the money in 2009. Look at Zechariah ch12 v3. Can anybody today point to where the centre of world conflict is going to be in 4709?

Louise

I doubt that, since his father was a leading Communist intellectual, our David ever took the "Reds under the Bed" threat seriously. The dear boy probably thinks that the latest threat to Civilisation As We Know It is just a scary story at bedtime.
Meanwhile, Al Beeb is extending its influence inside Iran and Afghanistan by opening a BBC Farsi TV channel (oh joy! it will also be shown here). The Iranian authorities express disquiet, and a BBC spokesman is reported thus: "BBC spokesman Mike Gardner last week said the only goal is to report on world events in an impartial and editorially independent manner".
I'm sure the mad mullahs will find that their fears are unfounded, given the nature of the BBC's - ahem! - "impartial
manner".

Oliver

Melanie and Phil,

The following is not intended to be a sneer, nor am I Miliband's fan - so far he has sometimes been embarrassing.

Firstly, to say that there is a unified transnational enemy and it is the Islamic global jihad, is similar to declaring a war on terror. Jihad is a struggle, and in that sense is also a tactic or mechanism. So as you said in your piece, to declare it as one’s enemy is nothing short of absurd.

Secondly, being at ‘war’, as you describe, implies that there will be and can be a winner and a loser. At what point could we declare victory in this war? I would be especially interested to know an answer to this.

Thirdly, local issues undeniably motivate people to take up arms. While I do not advocate ending the conflict in Afghanistan or never going to war again, the more conflict there is with Muslims the more recruits there will be to the extremists' cause.

If it were possible to ameliorate these local problems and to remove grievances which are the closest to peoples’ hearts, the motivation would be all the less to pick up a gun or be persuaded by a hate-filled imam. Surely, this would be a less deadly, fairer, and more effective way to tackle the threat we undoubtedly face from Islamist terrorists.

N.B. Miliband also said: “The more we lump terrorist groups together and draw the battle lines as a simple binary struggle between moderates and extremists or good and evil, the more we play into the hands of those seeking to unify groups with little in common.”

Tim C

It is getting boring hearing all this criticism of terminology and the attempts to blame attrocities on its usage. Anyway, I don't see anything wrong at all with the term "war on terror" any more than "war on want" or "war on poverty". It just means that it is should be treated seriously. My understanding is that the current war on terror has involved many approaches as it was always intended to.

Michael

Well Melanie, where do you stand on what he says here:

"Historians will judge whether it has done more harm than good," he said, adding that, in his opinion, the whole strategy had been dangerously counterproductive, helping otherwise disparate groups find common cause against the west.

"The more we lump terrorist groups together and draw the battle lines as a simple binary struggle between moderates and extremists or good and evil, the more we play into the hands of those seeking to unify groups with little in common, and the more we magnify the sense of threat,"

I suppose if you're gonna quote him in a context that suits warping his argument to fit with your own, the least you can expect is to be rumbled.

Risible you say? Not half.

Frank P

Geoff M

"What I would appreciate is your analysis as to why our boneheaded leaders persist in down playing the threat and sucking up to/making excuses for the Islamists."

I think Melanie has answered your question over and over in numerous essays over the years, both here and elsewhere. My own summary of what she thinks, and I agree with her, is our 'leaders' have had a lifetime of brainwashing through the 'educational' processes of this country and have absorbed by osmosis not only the Leftist internationalist propaganda, but also the latent seam of anti-Semitic hatred that runs through Western society; and which is being cunningly 'legitimised' by the Western MSM as a result of Israel's determination to defend itself against Islamic Jihad. As a result the United Kingdom, per se, is a busted flush. We have already had most of our sovereign power handed over to European bureacracy and have more traitors per square mile in this 'country' than anywhere else on the face of the earth. But then the intelligentsia would parry that remark by the old lie, "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." Which was complete bollocks when it was first uttered and doesn't become any more valid when it is parroted by brainwashed idiots. Unless we are prepared to defend our country our borders and our culture, how can we defend the freedoms of our families and each other. We are as nothing without national status, culture and heritage. It was achieved by the sacrifice of heros and is being dispersed by the weakness and Utopian ideology of cowards. This government is not the first to have squandered many of the elements which make life worth living, but is certainly the most profligate and determined in its promotion of the Internationale. God damn them all!

Owen Morgan

As Melanie quotes above, Miliband has asserted that:

"We must respond to terrorism by championing the rule of law, not subordinating it, for it is the cornerstone of the democratic society. We must uphold our commitments to human rights and civil liberties at home and abroad."

This is a government which has a seriously perverted idea of what the "rule of law" actually means; which has repeatedly restricted our liberties and endlessly wants to restrict them further; which makes a mockery of our "democratic society" by endless gerrymandering and circumventing of true democratic process; which is hell-bent on "subordinating" our entire constitution to a corrupt bureaucracy in Brussels. Miliband has demonstrated particular enthusiasm for the latter.

The trouble with Miliband's idea of "human rights" is that it doesn't apply to most of us. Elderly lady, born in Canada, resident in Britain since the age of five? Threaten her with deportation! Islamist terrorist wannabe, regularly spouting incitement to murder, openly despising the United Kingdom, while simultaneously pleading refugee status from Somalia/Algeria/Jordan/Morocco? Quite untouchable, I'm afraid. When we complain about this self-evident injustice, the response from Blair and Blunkett, Miliband and Brown is always a suggestion to curtail OUR liberties still further.

Frank P

"the shallowness of Miliband"

They call him sallow shallow! This robotic creature who's buttons are controlled by his eminence grise Mallock-Brown, the ex-UN apparatchik and buddy of Kofi Annan, is so superficial that the yellow streak inside him illuminates his jaundiced physiogmony.

steve

Melanie: David Milliband's take simply reflects the view of intelligence agencies, academics, foreign policy specialists, etc. In other words, people who have examined this question and know something about it don't believe you can in simplistic fashion put together Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, the government of Iran, etc. into one coherent movement. The only people who do lump them together are ideologues.

Some are national movements; some like al-Qaeda have pretentions to being pan-national. Some are Shia movements. Al-Qaeda hates Shias which is why al-Qaeda in Iraq targetted Shias.

Can I also point out, and this speaks to the general shallowness of the media, that Hillary Benn gave a similar speech in April 2007 (see the link below)so it is even new for a Labour minister to make such an argument.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6558569.stm

Adam B.

Please save us from this useless government. We have another year of these ignorant imbeciles before we can kick them out. Miliband is a dangerous fool.

gary

"Melanie here are some facts, direct quotes, from the MI5 website about the Irgun - a terrorist organisation absorbed into the IDF:"

Mr unobservant Observer

I won't dispute that the Irgun resorted to methods called terrorism. Their war aims were competely in alignment with the aim of the temporary mandate granted to Britain to assist with the establishment of a state for Jews, at the time when Britain was attempting to lay aside their responsibility. Hamas' war aims are genocidal and against the charter of the UN in aiming to demolish a legitmate sovereign state.

The Irgun's aims were legitimate even though some of their methods were not, and there was successful outcome. The League of Nations decree was completed and the mandate ceased. Neither Hamas' aims nor their methods are legitimate, and I hope that no-one wants their aims to be successful.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Miliband is a child, he is about 12 years old now, he has a long way to go

pm317

Thank you, Ms. Phillips. It has become fashionable these days to say that the terrorists have a legitimate grievance. Obama is doing it and I guess, Miliband is not too far behind. To say LeT is all about Kashmir is to absolve the western countries of doing anything and will help give them cover for capitulating on Pakistan's blackmail. How ignorant and shameful these politicians can be! (see my related post "Educating Obama" at noquarterusa.net)

patricia

Melanie, Adam B and a few other relics of the past are the only refuseniks left by the wayside as the juggernaut of public - and even political - opinion rumbles on.

Live in the past. And leave the future to the rest of us.

We'll send you a postcard - or not.

steve

obviously he is either a complete airhead or is cynically pandering to 'muslem ' community leaders ' and the socialist nonworkers who read the Guardian ( now there's a laugh ).But either way he is dangerous fool and thank you Melanie for continuing to point this out

Lisa

Oliver, there is indeed “a unified transnational enemy and it is the Islamic global jihad”. These factions might be different in some of their manifestations but all radical Muslims are simply trying to enact — to the letter — the words of The Koran and The Hadith: “Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." (9:73 — The Koran) and so on.

The common factor here is Islam, but you don’t want to know about that.

“Jihad is a struggle” — no, jihad is not a struggle. It is an unjustified assault on everything that is non-Muslim.

Jihad is “a tactic or mechanism” — yes. It is a tactic to have everyone and everything non-Muslim subjugated and treated as second class to Islam. The Islamic word for it is dhimmification.

You ask: “Secondly, being at ‘war’, as you describe, implies that there will be and can be a winner and a loser. At what point could we declare victory in this war? I would be especially interested to know an answer to this.”

This is a war that has been going on against us for centuries. The terror aspect is but one of the latest manifestations of this war. The way to achieve victory against it is to stop kow-towing to it in whatever form it takes, whether it be the cultural jihad — creating special cultural privileges for Muslims via giving them legal privileges — or the military jihad.

“The more conflict there is with Muslims the more recruits there will be to the extremists’ cause” — no, Oliver, the more you give into radical Islam, the more ground it seeks to take.

The common denominator with all these people is not political grievance but faith. That’s why you hear “Allah akbar!” just before your head gets blown off.

“If it were possible to ameliorate these local problems and to remove grievances which are the closest to peoples’ hearts,” — but they’re not genuine grievances. They’re just war-excusing propaganda. The Islamists know that the West is now so secular many of its inhabitants don’t understand religiously motivated action and so play the useful idiots like a fiddle by giving them what they want to hear. In Islam it’s called taqiyya.
Concepts such as dhimmification and taqiyya weren’t invented for a laugh. They were invented for a purpose. Why are you so blind to this?

‘N.B. Miliband also said: “The more we lump terrorist groups together and draw the battle lines as a simple binary struggle between moderates and extremists or good and evil, the more we play into the hands of those seeking to unify groups with little in common.”’

Yes, sadly the terrorists’ Muppetman is as deluded as you are.

RUTH

Can somebody tell us why Isral is using phosporous bombs please?

Sam Armstrong

He understands what he is saying and deep down knows he is wrong. He is peddling a lie, a calculated lie, and this should not be surprising from someone who is obviously a career politician.

Gary

ruth they are not. it is one of many mistakes the media have made about the IDF

logdon

In fact this, lifted from my last posting nails it perfectly. Apologies for the repetition but this is so apt it deserves repeating. 'This is not a war against a nation or leader'. Got that, Miliband?

The following is from intelligence that field researchers have obtained from Islamic scholars and imams in the U.S. during the last year:

Example #1: “It is vital that the Muslim mujahedeen do not mistake the enemy and think this is a war against a nation or leader. Although the struggle may present leaders and nations to distract and ensnare the Islamic forces, it is Jihad – under orders from Allah and His Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. It is a Jihad against the usurious banking entity. Thus it is a struggle that can be waged not just on one terrain, or under one Amir, but it is Jihad that will be characterized by fighting wherever the enemy's forces exist. The enemy is not merely a personnel but a method, a deen, with its Temples, the banks; with its holy places, the Stock Exchanges of the world; and its false scriptures, the data-banks of figures, these magical millions and billions that hold the world's poor to ransom for the sake of a small elite of kafir power brokers, their core Jewish, their allies the lawless Christians. It is with these that war must be waged. One thing is certain- if the kuffar accept us and approve of us and claim they can live alongside of us, then we have lost our Islam.

david lynn

RUTH, The main function of phosphorus is in the formation of bones and teeth. It plays an important role in the body's utilization of carbohydrates and fats and in the synthesis of protein for the growth, maintenance, and repair of cells and tissues. It is also crucial for the production of ATP, a molecule the body uses to store energy. (Medical Encyclopedia)

phil

Oliver I cannot speak for Melanie .I have never met her in person .

My personal answer to you is the war will end when peaceloving Muslims take control of their own religion and are free from the control exercised by the evil militants and Imams .I,e ,when they can listen without fear to the Imams who want to enjoy their lives with their congregants in the land,s of their choice and who respect the law of their adopted land .

As to local issues this is partly covered above but I would emphasise that we do not set the agenda -what is happening abroad ,should not affect their relationship with their community -Ok "foreign policy"-they have a vote let them use it rather than blowing up innocents and attacking them in the street .

I am Jewish and I absolutely accept the laws of this land and the fact that it is a Christian country-I am more than grateful that my ancestors were given citizenship here and I wish to do honour to my country -if I do not agree with some policies of our government ,I speak out peacefully and write ---I also write respectfully to Muslim people who come here to put their case .I rarely receive thatrespect back .

Meanwhile as the 7/7 bomber said in his video to us "I am a soldier and we are at war"--It is not my war ,nor I suspect your,s .

tommy

"the more we play into the hands of those seeking to unify groups with little in common.”’

ALL these islamic groups have something in common-- just look at the French Military--maybe they could help with the explanation

Thursday January 15th, 2009 / 11h32
PARIS (AFP)--
French Muslim soldiers have refused to serve in Afghanistan, saying their faith forbids them from fighting fellow Muslims, a military spokesman confirmed to AFP.

Just more evidence of islamic incompatibility with western values

cuffleyburgers

"We must respond to terrorism by championing the rule of law, not subordinating it, for it is the cornerstone of the democratic society. We must uphold our commitments to human rights and civil liberties at home and abroad"

It is rare indeed that I agree with anything that any of this labour shower say, but he is right here.

He should remember that this approach starts at home, and does not involve the wholesale enactment of new laws to make anything the administration decides to do, legal.

However the broader point he makes is not entirely wrong either. The idea of trumpeting a great "war on terror" has been shown up to be a mistake. And whilst international terrorism must be dealt with by force where necessary, to pretend that these towelheads present a greater threat than naziism or communism, is wrong.

I suspect you are correct though that Britain is a weak link in the struggle against islamofascism largely due to the Gram-shi-ite majority in the media & education and Labour's shocking inability to choose a line of action on any principle other than tomorrow morning's headlines.

I truly think that neither Brown, nor Millipede nor ANY of the other MEMBERS of the cabinet really care. They just love to play at being important, to collect photo opportunities like schoolboys of football cards, and jet around europe or ideally the world making pronouncements and smiling a lot.

They are beneath contempt.

Tony

I have just finished reading a report about UK and allied troops having fought a huge battle in Helmund province, Afghanistan, that culminated in a battle akin to 1st world war trench warfare on Christmas day. Five UK men died in that battle; allied casualties not stated.
I wonder what the soldiers who took part in that battle feel about Miliband's apology for the war on terror? Would he have had the guts to give that interview 'at the sharp end'?
I was a soldier myself, long ago and one of the most demoralising things that could ever happen to us was to hear our seniors running down the role we played, or even worse, undermining what we were doing.
What in the name of common sense and decency was Miliband up to when making such destructive remarks?? I cannot believe it. Why doesn't he just lob a few grenades at our men instead, the effect is the same?

Sharone

India has sharply reacted, and rightly so, to Miliband's 'advise' that 'resolution of the dispute over Kashmir would help deny extremists in the region one of their main calls to arms, and allow Pakistani authorities to focus more effectively on tackling the threat on their western borders' argued in Guardian.

India said, “Mr. Miliband is entitled to his views, which are clearly his own and are evolving. India is a free country and, even if we do not share his views, he is free to express them. However, we do not need unsolicited advice on internal issues in India like J&K."

UK risks loosing one of its closest and traditional partner because of Miliband's shallow understanding of events.someone needs to put him in place and soon.

davidka

"What I would appreciate is your analysis as to why our boneheaded leaders persist in down playing the threat and sucking up to/making excuses for the Islamists."posted by Geoff m.
Much of this is covered in Melanie's excellent "Londonistan".
Part of the problem is of course the "collective thinking" of Britain's leaders whether you call it "toeing the party line" or political consensus, it is a process that only gets worse the longer the party is in power. one could say the rot sets in.
In the case of "institutions" which are permanent quasi political systems. and are not subject to short term elections. the radicalisation is much worse indeed. The BBC for example may have been started as impartial reporter of news many years ago . The radicalisation did not happen overnight but is long process over many years involving the seizing of power by elements from within and the recruitment of like minded thinking personnel and the evolution of a BBC group think. The result of this is obvious today to the many individual thinkers in the UK who are free to think for themselves outside the yokes of political parties or the BBC.
It is the classic 'long march through the institutions."
When those brave enough to lose their jobs and political appointments, because they are at heart not group thinkers but free thinkers, shout out, they are mercilessly put down by the tribe. Is this what happened to W. Churchill in the years before WW2? But at least he may have succeeded because in the end he had a British public behind him who still held their moral principles intact.
So when top politicians and Oxbridge educated journalists and civil servants tell you that there is no Islamic Jihad to take over the west, they do so (sometimes but rarely out of complete ignorance) because of a consensus from above.
What that consensus lays down is at the root of the disasters that are now commonplace in Eurabia.
as an imaginary example :
IF our need for oil and the blowback business is so great that we are willing to allow the sacrifice of Israel to sharia and the continual threat of murder and mayhem on our street then that view must not be revealed directly to the public but down the tortuous paths of universities, media and politics until it is totally unrecognisable as a goal by the ordinary voter. These institutions are then used as dupes to mask the intentions which in a democracy cannot be openly expressed by the elites.Of course the time scale for this may well be decades and carry on regardless of changes in governments.
In totalitarian or stalinist regimes of course, there is no need to go to such lengths to mask the true intentions.

Tony

Gary,
I am sorry to say that Israel IS using phosphrous shells (not bombs), those octopus like smoke trails that send shards of light down ARE phosphorous shells fired from 150mm howitzers.
However it is not illegal anywhere in the world to use phosphorous, so why the angst? I am sure it is only being used where the IDF are totally certain there are Hamas targets.

phil

patricia you are as usual here with your message of hate on a thread that will give you no succour -as YOU say "Live in the past. And leave the future to the rest of us.

We'll send you a postcard - or not."-

-PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE AND TAKE RUTH WITH YOU .

I will pay your deposit for a round the world trip on uss hariden ,where the menu consists of hate bile and lies ,you will love it and so will we .

phil

RUTH we will make an attempt to process all your questions when you tell us why you continue writing lies and show your hatred for all things Jewish -you may wonder why I respond to you and patricia ,when you well know I see you as useless individuals filled with hate -well I will tell you ,its because never again will Jewish people sit quietly whilst people like you destroy our reputations with lies and obfuscations ,feeding the frenzy that caused such tragedies in the last century .so if you want to continue as an idiot you will have it emphasised .

Winston Smith

When I was younger the politicians were far older than they are now. Why was that? Would it be anything to do with "With age comes wisdom"?
We have seen with this despicable Nulabour government the promotion of political correctness, forced equality and the piece de resistance - Career politicians who care nought for the electorate they represent but instead use their position to bury their heads deeper into the trough of wealth, self praise and destruction of a once wonderful country.
Milliband is an idiot. Not just an idiot but a complete and utter moron, that should be tossing burgers in Burger King not looking after Britain's reputation and affairs abroad. The good thing is that Milliband's political carreer will come to a close after the next election and he and ZaNu Labour will be banished to the political wilderness, very possibly to not be shadow government for a very long time.
At long last Melanie mentions - "There is indeed a unified transnational enemy and it is the Islamic global jihad." I was also happy to see - "But they are unified by one common goal which transcends all divisions, including those between Sunni and Shia, and that is to conquer all unbelievers and spread Islamic theocracy around the world."
We need to be far more subtle in our description of Islam in the UK and the Western World.

Until Milliband and the rest of his party actually realise that they are fighting against a united ideology intent on Islamisation of the World, we can never even begin to address how we're going to combat this situation and stop it from happening. Maybe a good start would be to actually realise that terrorists are most definitely Islamic and connected to Islam and even better, those Muslim terrorists who are currently preaching sedition and committing treason in the UK are not only a danger to the UK but should be punished accordingly with long jail sentences under supervision, where they cannot bully other inmates into conversion to Islam and the recruitment of Violent jihad.

Mick Gold Coast QLD Australia

With elected leaders like this galah it's little wonder your lot lost an entire empire! Your people deserve all that they have asked for.

TomTom

From Ramsay MacDonald to David Miliband with only Ernest Bevin to claim any status as a Labour Foreign Secretary......it is pathetic....it is a pathetic political party that has only ever produced one Foreign Secretary of note and now has the adolescent son of a Belgian Marxist completely outclassed by Steinmeier in Germany who must think Miliband a catamite to have such a role with so little background in either British History or comprehension of British global interests

Leslie

Ruth,the Red Cross issued a statement about possible Israeli use of phosphorus shells,here
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090113/ap_on_re_eu/eu_red_cross_white_phosphorus

David Lynn @4:02pm :)

George

Ruth and Tony,

As you can't even get your facts straight about the type of munitions being used (they are artillery shells, not bombs) or the size of the shells (they are 155mm, not 150mm), why should we believe you as to the content of the shells. As it happens, Israel is NOT using any illegal white phosphorus munitions against anybody. Hamas on the other hand, is doing so: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3656311,00.html
I won't hold my breath waiting for any condemnation of this.

Norm

Fortunately for Israel I doubt if they pay any attention to the boy Milliband. It's essential that they do what they think fit to defend their people and to hell with anyone else especially the UN. They will receive no support from the west so just get on with it as fast as they can and destroy Hamas.That will make Iran, Syria and the rest back off not Millibands hand wringing.

RUTH

Gary

The UN is now saying openly that Israel is using phosphorous bombs, and the IDF has not said otherwise.

Don

Makes Margaret Beckett look like a colossus on the world stage, quite an achievement.

Jon Dyson

Miliband Should Support 3-Part Plan for Victory over Hamas instead of joining the let-Hamas-survive-to-fight-another-day movement:

1/ Israel continue military action until political and military leaders of Hamas killed, captured or surrendered.

2/ No genuine victory until all Hamas weapons captured or surrendered. Only then can duties of an occupying power begin when Israel can provide security for aid, medical and reconstruction workers.

3/ Captured Hamas leaders and mullahs who supported them to be put on trial for launching a war to exterminate Israel, war crimes, attempted genocide and promoting genocide.

This, not allowing Hamas to survive, provides the best framework for peace. But is it possible? Of course. Hamas is weakening. Gaza is smaller than south Lebanon and there is no accommodating host government behind them. Nor is there an open route for fresh supplies from a friendly neighbour as enjoyed by Hezbollah. And unlike 2006, there is plenty of Arab hostility to Hamas.

So Hamas is being squeezed and hammered in a way that was impossible

HarleyDavidson

Melaine, your Minister fo state, David Miliband, is very adolescent in his thinking. He thinks it’s all about local 'grievances’ as a causal effect. Hello! There is no such thing as "local" in this global world. Case in point, the decaying world economy is striking every local town, village, and city in your nation. Banks are going under having to be popped up by governments. Which means it is world events that actually effect local as opposed to local events effecting anything other than local. No one is talking about my or your "local" problems except us locals.

Another case in point. Your Prime Minister, the former exchequer, of your country along with his merry band of morons, at the national level I might add have plunged your nation into a depression that will affect the lives of every man. woman, and child in your nation. Literally everything in your lives today you buy and consume are made on a national or international basis.

Similarly, in the Middle East, if Israel burps the rest of the Muslims states get a bad stomach. And if the Muslim states have an upset stomach then the "locals" start marching in the streets.

However, there are indeed "local" problems. Darfur, now those 400,000 black people killed, that's local. Sri Lankan War in which up to 70,000 Hindus and Buddhists, mostly civilians, that's local. Republic of Congo where since 1997 almost 4,000,000 people have perished, obviously that's also local. Second Chechen war with up to 90,000 dead; the Islamic insurgency in the Philippines with 160,000 casualties; an ethnic conflict in Nagaland with the loss of 43,000 lives; the Turkish- Kurdish struggle with 37,000 dead and wounded and, last but not least, the Islamic insurgency in Kashmir with another 60,000 lives lost. There are too many others to name but you won't hear much about them because - well yes you guessed it - they are not Palestinians.

Miliband? Your comment?

Louise

Patricia, what future will that be? The one in which women are shrouded head to foot, are treated as chattels of their menfolk, are valued only as baby machines, and are denied education? A future in which gays are hanged, adulterers stoned, thieves have their hands chopped off, card players and those who relish the odd tipple are whipped, and pet dogs are cast out into the street to be mistreated as despised pariahs?

As for the boy Miliband, I hear the bones of Lord Palmerston turning in their grave.

Daibhidh MacAdhaimh

Hmm, 'If it's a fair cop.' This is obviously the humbled reaction that this lightweight's naivete expects from the Nasrallas and Bin Ladens of this world.

Adam B.

patricia, I'm not a relic thank you very much - I would put money on my being younger than you! But when all else fails, you can just launch an ad hominem attack.

davidka

this charge has been disputed by the International Red Cross, which stated that it had no evidence to suggest that white phosphorus is being used improperly or illegally by Israel. As the AP reports:

"In some of the strikes in Gaza it's pretty clear that phosphorus was used," [Peter] Herby told The Associated Press. "But it's not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it's being used in any other way." ...

Herby said that using phosphorus to illuminate a target or create smoke is legitimate under international law, and that there was no evidence the Jewish state was intentionally using phosphorus in a questionable way, such as burning down buildings or consciously putting civilians at risk.

White phosphorus has, however, been used as a weapon against civilians during this conflict... by Hamas. On Tuesday a mortar shell fired from Gaza into Israel contained white phosphorus. As the regional council's security chief said: "the potential danger of using such a rocket is enormous. It is far more dangerous than other Qassam rockets and mortal shells. This is an escalation in the type of explosives the Palestinians use on civilians

Yehuda

Is this Milliband carrying Neville Chamberlain's genes?
Isn't there anyone in the Great British political Establishment who is carrying Winston Churchill's?

An American

We have morons like Miliband in the US...they're called Democrats.

Clinton believed that we must give the poor terrorists the right to be tried in our courts even though they weren't American citizens. Obama and Hillary believe the same...

Obama wants to get rid of Gitmo which would move all of the poor mistreated terrorists into our prisons...All the more opportunities to turn our large population of black prisoners into Islamic hotheads and also give our socialist lawyers stupendous amounts of our taxpayer monies to defend these poor misunderstood, non-citizen souls.

Thought you would all like to know that Obama's new choice for Attorney General signed a last minute pardon for Marc Rich who was on the FBI's most wanted list...while he was Clinton's Attorney General. But, he'll have no problem passing...Today, the Democratic Senators were falling over themselves to point out that he is a black man.

Also, our new tax Czar has cheated on his taxes on several instances to the tune of $36,000+. But, that's ok, he's a Democrat and they need him to clean up our financial mess even though he was one of many that helped create it.

Also, Hillary as the Sec. of State will be dealing with all those rich Saudis and Chi-coms that gifted her husband with hundreds of millions of dollars...but, I'm sure she will be fair in her dealings with these entities...at least, if she can continue to take it all from under the table.

These are the people that Obama wants to surround himself with and defends their immoral, unethical, criminal actions.

The press continues to portray 'The One' as this brilliant..Did you know that he's the smartest President to ever be elected... righteous, moral savior of our country.

Right now on the eve of Obama's lavish $150,000,000 inaugeration...as our country sinks into financial ruin, the press is in a fit of dare i say...orgazmic ectasy.

I, on the other hand along with many other sane Americans, am physically ill at what has become of my country.

Jones

Re phosphoros:
the Times seems to have been hoodwinked by Hamas propaganda:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5521925.ece

Fred

You can be sure that Milliband knows exactly what he is doing. He is not a fool and he is not talking without having been briefed in full by the Foreign Office. He is quite clearly telling those that Britain is now supporting (the Islamists, in a cowardly effort to prevent any more attacks on Britain) that their goals must be to focus on a push to regain the Golan Heights. this will be supported by Britain and if it should eventuate will mark the beginning of the end for Israel. Israel cannot be defended in the era of modern weapons without holding the Golan. This is a sad time for British foreign policy as it marks the ultimate capitulation of what used to be a proud society, based on a philosophy of high moral values, to Islamic thuggery.

Jerry

Regarding Patricia's comment:

"refuseniks left by the wayside as the juggernaut of public - and even political - opinion rumbles on. Live in the past. And leave the future to the rest of us."

I find her comment quite fascinating. They are so utterly devoid of meaning that I cannot even begin to approach them.

First, the future is utterly unknowable unless systems are stable, in which case ALL systems simply approach entropy. Second, we all enter the future at the same point in time, though our physical locations differ. It is only the past that we have any chance of understanding, so we concentrate on trying to tease out rules, most of which fit only a limited number of cases.

The only thing we can rationally do is hold each other's hands to lend support to one another on our journey and hope those that we extend ourselves to do not take Darwin as the beginning and end of human knowledge.

Since we can only hope to hold a limited number of hands, I will ask Patricia to forgive me for not extending my hand to her, since I have no idea what she would do with it, given her delusions about life.

Juggernaut nothing! Join the Brownian Movement, Patricia.

Alok Niranjan

Us Indians are quite amused ...

We were expecting a foreign secretary but due to some mix up you guys sent a clown. Thanks for the laughs!

James (http://scriboergosum.org.uk

So radical Islam is "united" is it, Melanie?

Odd, then, that in Iraq Shia and Sunni can't even combine forces into a United Resistance against the Americans, and are spending far more time killing each other (along with innocents) instead of focusing on the occupiers.

A peculiar form of jihad, I think we can agree...

Jaidev Jamwal

A very well written article. People like Milliband and his supporters are evidently completely ignorant of ground situations. Opinions of such people are based not on real facts but half baked news reports. If he taling about negotiations with Islamic terrorists in Kashmir, why did he left out war on Pakisatan's western border. Condition there is much more serious and dire with Al Qaeda, Pashtuns, Balochs and numerous other groups fighting wars on numerous fronts. Even in Pak Occupied Kashmir, locals are up in arms against Punjab dominated Paki rule.

JohnW

Milliband, Balls, Harridan and their ilk are a the worst representatives we have ever had and a woeful embarassment to a once-great country. I long for the day when they are all uncerenoniously dumped from power. Please let it be soon.

sky

I think Kashmir is a real part of Pakistan.

Keep it up! Milliband

Roy

If you've been 'got at' by the tidal wave of current misrepresentations it doesn't matter what genes you have. Anyhow, Britain hasn't always shown good decisions from the top. Mostly it's been a matter of luck and the tenacity of the humble soldier or sailer, little to do with the higher ranks. Take many actions in the first World War. The Boer War, The Crimea. Just to mention three great bloody bloomers. Britain came through, but enormous losses and humiliations. Now Britain doesn't have the Channel to hold back it's enemies and it's friends are questionable. It is now inviting it's enemies to come and live with us. Then believe, and treat as gospel, every word they say. No wonder Tony is amazed by the 'ayes and cheers of support from the whole house', all are sheeple indeed, the shepherds have nothing to say.

Another American

yes, it is easy to blame democrats for the world's ills after the republicans have destroyed all semblance of what used to be american moral high ground.

Be ill, be very very physically ill, my friend because you are part of the problem that has ruined america.

Hopefully, you defaulted on your credit card loan and rah-rah'ed Bush for this manna from texas heaven.

But, please, please, learn to distinguish between foreign policy and what passes for "kick 'em furriners" law of Texas. There are civilizations out there that have no patience for your brand of silliness.

Peace.

Rajesh

With Milliband's comments in India, Britain has lost a friend in India. While we would make polite noises while he is there, Britain's credibility has hit rock bottom.
After the Mumbai Attacks, India tested the international community whether it could deliver justice in an international system of justice. India could have declared all out War on Pakistan for what happened in Mumbai. We did not do it. We wanted to see, whether this international system created by the West, had any means of providing justice. It did not. Milliband said, Pakistan need not extradite anybody to India. They can process that in Pakistani courts. If that is not a joke, I do not know what is. But he does not stop there, he goes on to comment about Kashmir and finding 'solutions' to it, which is the standard codeword for appeasing Pakistani state policy of Jihad.

So Britain, to you India says: Go to Hell!

Tony

Gary...I am not a supporter of Hamas by any means, in fact I am an avid supporter of Israel.
However, go to Google images and type in Phosphorus Artillery shells and you will see the exact same images come up that we are seeing air-bursting over Gaza.
I cannot see any other shell exploding in this manner without phosphorus being used, can you? If so, for what purpose? Smoke?
And yes, I said 150mm instead of 155mm because I am a bit older than you, no doubt and remember when my outfit fired standard 150mm howitzers. The extra 5mm does not diminish the truth.
In SUPPORT of Israel, the Geneva convention permits the use of phos on military targets only and 'may not be used on civilians or in built up areas'.
If you look closely, you will see most air bursts are in clearings within city environs, which makes it perfectly legal so long as the targets are confirmed gunmen. Israel has a very professional army and I therefore conclude phos IS being used on Hamas and Hamas alone. There have been no glaring images from Gaza hospitals showing kids burned by this stuff.

Mike

Seems to me it wouldn't make much strategic sense for Israel to agree a cease-fire, but simply to withdraw after the 'Final Act' enabling the IDF to re-enter Gaza at any time of its choosing.

This would enable Israel to gradually push the Gazans into Egypt, and again at its own choosing, push the Arabs of the Occupied West Bank into Jordan.

This would mean the completion of the Zionist project......and we could all go home and have a nice cup of tea!

'Mission Accomplished'

Lee laurie

Fred......that's what I was trying to say at 10.08 am on the 15th.
The bastards DO know!

Oliver

Phil,
many thanks for your response.

Though Lisa responded to my point about local issues, I don't think it really defeats it.

While there is an obvious 'cosmic' or global part to the jihad, I would argue that the hardcore of the extreme political Islamist movement would not have the recruits/followers, and subsequent power, if the local grievances/excuses were removed.

An example of this can be found in the adolescence of bin laden's cadre (and excuse the paraphrasing from Jason Burke's book: Al Qaeda, which provides a great history to the movement)

The radical message preached by Arabs in Afghanistan during the war with the Soviets was largely lost on the native Afghans until the refugee camps sprung up near Peshawar in 1979.

Angry and lumped together in a shanty town with tribes from all over the country, the refugees provided the political islamists with a constituency and a plethora of recruits for the first time.

This was when the movement really started to grow.

I think, and some may well say naively, that if these constituencies were removed from the hardcore of the movement then its potency would be significantly reduced.

Would be interested to know what you think Phil.

andy c

Nice editorial in the FT today.

I know you all bang on about the BBC, Guardian and Independent, but when the FT criticises Israel, or the Economist does, what do you say then?

It seems Israel is being condemned by everyone, except (almost) everyone here.

peter

Turns out Israel is napalming people in Palestine with rockets that burn so intensely people are being burned to death.

Tony

Yes, James, radical Islam is united, but these people are always so demented and unreasonable that when they're not trying to tear the eyes out of the free world they turn on each other.

johnm

He is just a little boy with NO understanding of the world who has accidentally ended up in a position of power - God help Britain

johnm

Rajesh

You are right - dont really on Britain it has been infected with a disease called appeasement and is almost dead - the rest of the world is not far behind - in the end you will have to fix your own problems - militarily , with pakistan - hope you have more nukes!!

Jerry

Re James (http://scriboergosum.org.uk) Think gray instead of black and white. Think about alliances that wash in and out of existence depending upon the level of perceived threat. All Islam comes together at the Haj and then splinters upon returning home. Why! Think polygamy and the need to protect women from strangers so there are enough to go around - which there never are because of polygamy. Think forever conflict in the search to find a mate and establish a family. Remember that males are permitted to marry non-Muslims and females are subject (theoretically and in practice) to the death penalty if they seek to marry out of the faith. All other explanations such as "Sunni" and "Shia" are post hoc. They hold weight until there is the need to overcome the "differences." Anecdotally, I seem to perceive that Muslim societies with less polygamy are more peaceful than those where it is practiced more commonly - compare Saudi Arabia to Indonesia. Peace is more likely when there are less "men at risk" for not being able to establish normal lives, even where poverty may be another factor in preventing the establishment of families.

phil

Jerry in these difficult economic times ,you could help me with the deposit on patricia,s cruise-she has kindly agreed to defer some cost by sharing a room with ruth ,who will be celebrating her 99 th birthday .Euros will do nicely .

phil

Alok Niranjan-its not our fault -it was the leeds boys :)

phil

Rajesh I am sad to read your comments as I guess India has 99 per cent of us who are your friends and have great respect for you -please do not assume that a few silly people represent what the rest of us think .

phil

Oliver ,I can see you are a decent guy who cares so I am trying to answer your concerns,I am a simple soul(good cue for the idiots to agree):) and I have no interest in their local issues -just let them do what we do and vote -If they cannot live with our ways let them go back to where they came from-that will not be what I wish ,just their own .

As for refugee camps .can you ask yourself why it is always them that are in them ?The rest of the civilised world progresses and help one another whilst they continue to cry foul.-Why do the Palestinians live in such poor circumstances without help from their fellow Muslims ?The holocaust survivors came penniless from their camps and made the desert bloom ,created new frontiers in science and medicine .invented your microchips and mobile phones ,new cameras for medical research etc etc etc .May I ask you why we have to consider the complaints of these radicals rather than discuss the way Israel is pushing those frontiers of science and making this world a better place ,

They only ask one thing from this world that is to live in peace ,next to neighbours who wish for the same .The Muslims do not have to like us but they do have to let us live or see us fight back .That is what Israel is doing ,no matter the lies that are being perpetrated from people that hate us ,even from some that do not ,but sadly know little other than what they read and see in the media -The media you are reading here (MELS) is trying to tell the truth ,a little biased maybe ,but basically the truth .If you want to test the quality of posters in all the papers ,try the guardian /independent .,full of bile and hate ,without compassion and mostly the writing of ignorant and uneducated people ,many of whom cant even spell ,then scroll through these threads ,you will see mostly care and compassion .anger -yes ,but the writing of people who are trying to understand and influence .We all want peace and a life for the children of the next generation ,and if there is a God ,one that represents all of us .

Oliver I am glad you take the time to read what I write as I think many only read what they have written themselves ,with a some notable exceptions :)-can I suggest you always read Kate A ,the lady is a star -Roslyn Pine , Adam B ,vision ,dixon ,Louise ,harley d . augustus ,logdon these people take the trouble to both think and research and add greatly to our knowledge and of course there are others too numerous to name .my best regards to you phil

Mike

Oliver: I'm with you. People who haven't a first-hand experience of war, see it only as an event between opposites, good V evil,
them V us, victory or defeat, but it isn't primarily about victory or defeat.....but about DEATH and the infliction of DEATH.

In the context of the moment, war is self-defeating, it serves only to further radicalise both sides, guaranteeing the inevitability of yet another war yet to come.

Adam B.

andy c, there you go, speaking for "everyone" again. How about the US, Netherlands, Italy, Czech republic? In any case, since when was a case proved by numbers? You can be in a m inority of one, and still be right.

Adam B.

Mike, Israel has one and a half million Arabs living inside Israel, and in 40 years the Arab populations in Gaza and Judea and Samaria have thrived to the point where they have more than doubled. Doesn't really look like ethnic cleansing, does it? On the other hand, Iraq, which once had a very sizeable Jewish community (a quarter of Baghdad was Jewish not so long ago, a QUARTER!) now has not one living Jew in the entire country. Isn't that ethnic cleansing?

Louise

There is a glimmer of hope on the horizon. As the London "Daily Telegraph" points out today in a long editorial attributing would-be-Labour-left-hero-and-Brown-usurper Miliband's comments to his putting personal political ambition over the national interest, The Boy's Cabinet Colleage, the Defence Minister, has come out loud and clear in favour of the War on Terror, having no illusions as to the threats we face.

rpol

Yes Mike, war does achieve aims...if it wasnt for war, you comment here would be in German

Spreken ze deutsch

W. B. Harris

Could David Miliband be today’s version of the Brits 1937-1940 Prime Ministry of the United Kingdom Arthur Neville Chamberlain? Conservative in spirit but a fool in decision making in regards to Adolf Hitler’s attempt to conquer the world.

We don’t wrestle against principality but against the spirit of evil – today vailed as ‘terrorists’ of the religionist of Islam. Popularity is not the way we should govern nor follow… look at the U. S. as they walk into the Lion’s Den on the 20th of January.

“Promises” were used to disguise the truth of B.H.O. and we wonder how long it will be before the Americans will discover that the King’s new cloths never EXISTED! Man was created equal, but that doesn’t mean he’ll think like you or I.

Being tolerence is a one way street – get the whole country to flow one way in the name of humanity, while those of evil accomplish their evil ways. I don’t want war just like anybody else, but I won’t give up my freedom to foolish and evil doctrones.

We can’t legalize nor moralize love or war… but are we willing to surrender our basic freedoms to the enemy wearing sheep clothings? When the clothes evaporate, it will be TOO LATE for those who want to feel good.

Freedom is earned, fought for to keep and no one should ashamed to defend it!

Mike

Adam B: You should know by now that you are no longer a person I wish to respond to. I've moved on.......suggest you do the same.

Mike

rpol: I agree with you......I lost member's of my family in WW2......they didn't die in vain...to think otherwise would lay an insult across their graves.

I omitted the word 'this' before the words 'war is self-defeating'.

Shaan

The influence of Britain in world affairs has become lesser and lesser, and we are sure that Miliband will bring it effectively to nil.

phil

adam B ,THERE ARE RULES HERE YOU KNOW .YOU MUST NOT ASK MIKE QUESTIONS HE CANNOT ANSWER ,,SORRY CAP LOCK TROUBLE AGAIN

Just remind him a war was fought against the nazis we won and out of that appalling conflagration came Germany renewed and containing so many people I am proud to call my friends .tell him we are sorry about his family members but that alone should have reminded him that war is necessary sometimes -well he will read this any how regards phil

Chris Braithwaite

Milliband reminds me of the old saying, never send a boy to do a man's job.

Mike

phil: Should you wish to debate my posts (02:26) or (05:15) fine, but don't expect me or anyone else to respond to any post of yours addressed to someone else.

egh

Patricia - Your emphasis on the superiority of YOUTH and FASHION, and your appropriation of 'juggernaut' indicate your love of things french or franco-german- perhaps you have been educated according to their commie system. This would be one reason why you generalize about the thoughts of people you don't know.

I also notice that you refer to the past and the future, but not to the present. The present is however, what you are presumably most qualified to talk about.

I would point out, however, that older people in this country were better educated; and, by virtue of experience, they know more about the real world and its people than do the young. Of course, some in all generations suffer arrested development, but those who don't accumulate knowledge and experience throughout their years. In other words, they don't just get older - they get better. For this reason, before PC, it was an English custom to be polite to everyone, including one's elders.

I recently encountered a child, presumably of your generation, who believes that we now have a beautiful world, and that nothing could be better than to stay in it for 400 years. The idea being, presumably, that you youngsters could then go on improving what is now so much better than it's ever been. I take it that would work here, because, represented by Milliboy, your generation will never-never grow old (or grow up, or face reality, or develop anything but dreams - and fashions).

Frank P - thanks again. Agree with all you say.

Anon

Adam B and Phil -

Mike obviously thinks death is the end of Life. He clearly knows nothing about freedom or its opposite. As for good and evil - someone he doesn't look down upon should ask him to define them!

Then there's the business of 'radicalizing' sides in a war. Does he mean entrench? Does he mean polarize (he does, after all, express himself in polarities)? Or does he mean put down roots? Anyway, this boy loves the sound of words, but he doesn't know what they mean. Just think what he'd do to the german language - that's probably what they're all going to end up with anyway.

Further evidence of the failure of his education: he leaves us hanging as to which 'moment' he's contextualizing, and he presumes to speak for 'people' he doesn't know - whether they've experienced war or not. Talk about piling 'on the bandwagon' on top of 'generalization'.

Adam B.

Mike, I have no wish to engage with you either. That doesn't mean you've got free reign here. If you post, I have the right to respond, and vice versa. That's how it works. It's not personal, it's the substance of your posts with which I profoundly disagree.

Lizzy

As Mark Steyn says, it's the forest not the trees.

Mark (abyss-stan)

A long discussion of patriotism
People always select the bits they like...

Samuel Johnson (The Patriot)

"A patriot is necessarily and invariably a lover of the people. But even this mark may sometimes deceive us.
The people is a very heterogeneous and confused mass of the wealthy and the poor, the wise and the foolish, the good and the bad. Before we confer on a man, who caresses the people, the title of patriot, we must examine to what part of the people he directs his notice. It is proverbially said, that he who dissembles his own character, may be known by that of his companions. If the candidate of patriotism endeavours to infuse right opinions into the higher ranks, and, by their influence, to regulate the lower; if he consorts chiefly with the wise, the temperate, the regular, and the virtuous, his love of the people may be rational and honest. But if his first or principal application be to the indigent, who are always inflammable; to the weak, who are naturally suspicious; to the ignorant, who are easily misled; and to the prfligate, who have no hope but from mischief and confusion; let his love of the people be no longer boasted. No man can reasonably be thought a lover of his country, for roasting an ox, or burning a boot, or attending the meeting at Mile-end, or registering his name in the lumber troop. He may, among the drunkards, be a hearty fellow, and, among sober handicraftmen, a free-spoken gentleman; but he must have some better distinction, before he is a patriot."

davidrev

I watched the idiot Miliband in parliament earlier this week. I was surprised he could be so stupid. But what frightened me most was the feeble response from William Hague who I once respected. It is clear that the gutless Tories decline to take a moral position lest they be accused of being “judgemental.” With the choice being Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum the UK is in deep trouble.

Mike

Adam B: I don't have any problem with that. I have 'free reign', like anyone else, to go and come as I please. I'm delighted you disagree so profoundly with the substance of my posts. So why don't you debate them? Unfortunately you often prefer to 'debate' using line-by-line nit-picks.....blowing the facts all over the place until the substance of the debate is all but lost. Phil frequently uses this technique also. It may be fun for you guys, but its truly boring for me. It's for the above reasons that I find it so easy to dismiss 'educated Anons' nit-picking comments as unhelpful and irrelevant. He must be a disaster at a dinner-party.....wrecking enjoyable, flowing wine-oiled conversations with his pedantry........I could go on.

By the way, you may well sincerely identify with the emotional, cultural and religious needs of Melanie Phillips and her acolytes......by far the majority posting on these pages...... but it does not give this 'collective/unionised' voice the right to bully the minority on these pages who so profoundly disagree with you and most things you support and stand for. That is why I criticised Phil for using the word 'us'.......as in 'them and us'. This is discriminatory. 'Go figure' in Mel-speak!

phil

mike we are getting to an impasse Adam B doesn,t want to engage with you .you never answer my questions ,although I do yours ,whats it all about alfie ?------------- btw did you ever visit fisk,s thread and read the hate mail he generates for both Israel and Jews in general .are you pleased with what he manages to do ? You never answer that do you -----If I had to give an award for the most anti-semitic journalism I would need to go back to Julius Streicher's infamous writing to even find competition ,and this is your favourite journalist ,so how can we evaluate what you write ?

Mike

Moderator(s): kindly review the following and publish please. It was uploaded at approx 08:30 GMT to-day. (I've omitted the last para in the interests of brevity)
Adam B: I don't have any problem with that. I have 'free reign', like anyone else, to go and come as I please. I'm delighted you disagree so profoundly with the substance of my posts. So why don't you debate them? Unfortunately you often prefer to 'debate' using line-by-line nit-picks.....blowing the facts all over the place until the substance of the debate is all but lost. Phil frequently uses this technique also. It may be fun for you guys, but its truly boring for me. It's for the above reasons that I find it so easy to dismiss 'educated Anons' nit-picking comments as unhelpful and irrelevant. He must be a disaster at a dinner-party.....wrecking enjoyable, wine-oiled flowing conversations with his pedantry........I could go on.

Mike

phil: On January 14/09 at 6:07pm on 'Britain turns Ugly' you posted the following:

'robert fisk or his impersonator -I prefer not to read pornogrphic literature'.

My response was to post the following
on January 15/09 at 10:00am
phil: A 'cut and paste'....... specially for you:

'Robert Fisk has been described in the New York Times as "probably the most famous foreign correspondent in Britain." He covered the Northern Ireland Troubles in the 1970s, the Portuguese Revolution in 1974, the 1975-1990 Lebanese Civil War, the 1979 Iranian revolution, the 1980-88 Iran–Iraq War, the 1991 Gulf War, and the 2003 Invasion of Iraq. He has received numerous awards, including the British Press Awards' International Journalist of the Year award seven times. Fisk speaks vernacular Arabic, and is one of the few Western journalists to have interviewed Osama bin Laden – three times between 1994 and 1997.

Fisk has said that journalism must "challenge authority — all authority — especially so when governments and politicians take us to war." He has quoted with approval the Israeli journalist Amira Hass: "There is a misconception that journalists can be objective ... What journalism is really about is to monitor power and the centres of power."

To refer to Robert Fisk as a 'pornographer' displays' either gross ignorance, or a mind warped by your own prejudices.

Although you say you are not a Zionist, you share their objective of trying to shut down any signs of critical debate about Israeli policies or US support for such policies.

If you opened your eyes, and especially your mind, you would understand that Fisk is just as critical of the policies of the Arabs as he is of American and Israeli. And on the generation of 'hate-mail', I suggest you look closer to home where you will find many appalling statements of what you describe as 'hate'.

If you want to stick an anti-Semite label on Fisk, then you might as well try and pin one on anyone who criticises the policies of the Israeli administration.

Senseless!

Straydingo

He is an article well worth reading:

http://tinyurl.com/85w93f

Comments from Pro Hamas supporters welcome.

phil

I knew I would waste my time I dont care what he has covered .has he told the truth ?my answer is no ,as is your refusal to answer my question .Mike you waste everyones time with your cut and paste ,so I expect your opinions will be consigned to the dustbin of history along with your mentor -I give up ,whats the point ?

Mike

phil: I guess the question you asked is: 'Are you pleased with what he (Fisk) manages to do?'

Since Fisk writes for a national newspaper, as do many others, and since it is often the policy of the Press to provide space for a readers comments, then of course I'm pleased. It's known as 'free speech' in a 'free press' which it certainly wouldn't be if it depended on CAMERA, ALD or Honest Reporting.

It's entirely upto you whether or not I 'waste your time', but you can't possibly speak for 'everyone'.

'Has he told the truth?'........ about what phil? You have every right to challenge any writer in a 'free press' but you have to make damn sure you have the evidence before doing so. Certainly not to dismiss anyone as a 'pornographer'or even as an 'antiSemite'......where's your evidence?

Finally, you don't know who my favourite journalist is.....that is if I have one.

Don't give up phil......answer my questions.

Adam B.

Mike, I disagree with the substance of your posts. Unfortunately your last three have contained no substance at all, other than to say that you like Fisk, in a rather long winded way. We know. That's why you think like him. Now perhaps we could turn to the subject of this thread? And if we bore you so much, why do you keep coming back here for more?

phil

Mike did you actually have a question ?-you know one that I hadn't answered numerous times .Please do not refer to pornography,you well know that I was not referring to sex .

If everyone includes 99 percent here ,I think I speak for them.if not let them speak up -you may hear from patricia ,ruth and anne(the one who hates starbucks) even SI,n ,THE INTELLIGENT ONE,S WILL DEAFEN YOU WITH THEIR SILENCE .

phil

mIKE i HAVE JUST NOTICED THIS POST ON THE 17/1 WENT MISSING,SO YOU CAN READ IT NOW .i REALISE YOU WILL NOT ANSWER THE POINTS AS YOU NEVER DO ,BUT HERE IT IS ANYHOW .
"Mike just answer my question ,just this one time ,and then you will not be so regularly hoist on your own petard -what you call nit picking is of course when you cannot find an answer or one that fisk has not written .come on man stand up and write for yourself -if you had a case you could find those answers like I do but you never manage that which is why we find it impossible to make sense with you ...............I have no problem with your support for the Arab cause but I do when you cant say why .Blame is your game but you never say why or give any analysis of the problems .just always its the fault of the Israelis .Can you recall any one time when they attacked any Arab country without being forced into it by huge provocation ,or armies building up on their borders?Have you ever heard of Israel kidnapping and mutilating ARAB "soldiers"or sending back prisoners in body bags?Have you a good reason for Israeli children being blown up on buses and streets ?I could go on but it is making me sick -just answer us ,yes us!!.one time Mike ,one time -it will be a world premiere "

Mike

phil: Your are attempting to run away from my questions....if nothing else answer this one,
quote 'Has he (Fisk) told the truth?'........ about what phil? unquote.

To help you along
you will need to examine very carefully his work on Ireland, Afghanistan, Iran (before and after the Shah), Iraq, The Gulf, The Sykes-Picot Agreement, The Iran-Iraq War, The Armenian Genocide, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Kosovo/Serbia, Israel/Palestine and of course Lebanon where he has his office. No doubt you will find inaccuracies from time to time, but when you have read and studied all of the above, I think you will find he is 'essential reading' of anyone who wishes to understand the contemporary Middle East. Since it will take some time for you to get through the above, perhaps you will let me know when you are ready with your answer.

If I understand your question correctly, you are asking me why I support the Arab cause. It's very simple. It's because I believe Israel is, generally speaking, in the wrong in its conflict with the Palestinians and that the Palestinians are in the right. However, there are grey areas in this conflict.....undoubtedly there are times when the Zionists do something right, and the Palestinians something wrong, but it is very definitely the Palestinians, not Israel, who deserve the support of the world.

I can't put it more plainly than that.

Adam B.

Hamas advocates the extermination of the Jews. The leader of the Palestinian Authority denies the Holocaust ever happened. According to Mike, they're in the right.

Yehuda

Look, Mike, you can adulate Fisk as much as you like but the Jews are not just going to lie down and be attacked by his friends and yours without resisting fairly vigorously- if necessary, even more vigorously than they have just done in Gaza.
Get over it and get used to it. That's the way it's gunna be.

phil

Mike CAN I-SAY POLITELY I HAVE NO INTEREST IN ALL THE PLACES THE ARABS ARE OR HAVE BEEN AT WAR ,WHICH IS WHAT THEY DO MOSTLY, EXCEPT THE ONE,S WITH ISRAEL ,A COUNTRY WHICH DOES NOT WANT WAR .---

SO YOUR MAN CAN STAY IN HIS OFFICE AT PEACE WITH HESBOLLAH IN ORDER TO WRITE HIS RUBBISH FOR AN EXCLUSIVE AUDIENCE OF IGNORANT AND OR RACIST FOOLS .THIS WORLD IS COMING ROUND MORE QUICKLY NOW TO THE VIEW THAT ISRAEL ARE CONFRONTING AN EVIL ENEMY -THIS IS IN CAPITALS SO YOU WILL REMEMBER WHAT I HAVE TOLD YOU .

Mike

Yehuda: Arrogance personified!

phil

MIKE YOU WILL LOVE THIS ,SO WILL FISK IF YOU SEND IT TI HIM

From Youssef M. Ibrahim, a former New York Times Middle East Correspondent and Wall Street Journal Energy Editor for 25 years, is a freelance writer based in New York City and Dubai in the United Arab Emirates .

To my Arab brothers:

The War with Israel Is Over - and they won.

Dear Palestinian Arab brethren: The war with Israel is over. You have lost. Surrender and negotiate to secure a future for your children. We, your Arab brothers, may say until we are blue in the face that we stand by you, but the wise among you and most of us know that we are moving on, away from the tired old idea of the Palestinian Arab cause and the "eternal struggle" with Israel . Dear friends, you and your leaders have wasted three generations trying to fight for Palestine , but the
truth is the Palestine you could have had in 1948 is much bigger than the one you could have had in 1967, which in turn is much bigger than what you may have to settle for now or in another 10 years.

Struggle means less land and more misery and utter loneliness. At the moment, brothers, you would be lucky to secure a semblance of a state in that Gaza Strip into which you have all crowded, and a small part of the West Bank of the Jordan . It isn't going to get better. Time is running out even for this much land, so here are some facts, figures, and
sound advice, friends.

You hold keys, which you drag out for television interviews, to houses that do not exist or are inhabited by Israelis who have no intention of leaving Jaffa , Haifa , Tel Aviv, or West Jerusalem . You shoot old guns at modern Israeli tanks and American-made fighter jets, doing virtually no harm to Israel while bringing the wrath of its mighty army down upon you. You fire ridiculously inept Kassam rockets that cause little destruction and delude yourselves into thinking this is a war of
liberation.

Your government, your social institutions, your schools, and your economy are all in ruins. Your young people are growing up illiterate, ill, and bent on rites of death and suicide, while you, in effect, are living on the kindness of foreigners, including America and the United Nations. Every day your officials must beg for your daily bread, dependent on relief trucks that carry food and medicine into the Gaza Strip and the West Bank , while your criminal Muslim fundamentalist Hamas government continues to fan the flames of a war it can neither fight nor hope to win.

In other words, brothers, you are down, out, and alone in a burnt-out landscape that is shrinking by the day. What kind of struggle is this? Is it worth waging at all? More important, what kind of miserable future does it portend for your children, the fourth or fifth generation of the Arab world's have-nots? We, your Arab brothers, have moved on.

Those of us who have oil money are busy accumulating wealth and building housing, luxury developments, state-of-the-art universities and schools, and new highways and byways. Those of us who share borders with Israel , such as Egypt and Jordan , have signed a peace treaty with it and are not going to war for you any time soon. Those of us who are far
away, in places like North Africa and Iraq , frankly could not care less about what happens to you.

Only Syria continues to feed your fantasies that someday it will join you in liberating Palestine , even though a huge chunk of its territory, the entire Golan Heights, was taken by Israel in 1967 and annexed. The Syrians, my friends, will gladly fight down to the last Palestinian Arab. Before you got stuck with this Hamas crowd, another cheating, conniving, leader of yours, Yasser Arafat, sold you a rotten bill of goods - more pain, greater corruption, and millions stolen by his relatives
- while your children played in the sewers of Gaza .

The war is over. Why not let a new future begin?

Youssef M. Ibrahim, a former New York Times Middle East Correspondent and Wall Street Journal Energy Editor for 25 years, is a freelance writer based in New York City and Dubai in the United Arab Emirates .

phil

Mike run away again ?

stupid me

Was really worried when I read the statement by Mr. Milliband, tried to get my head around it but could not come up with much, seems to smell of a lack of thought or appeasement politics, in either case we are in trouble. Oh well people are murdered, politicians did not lose votes, who cares about empathy and the rest, useless traits in a politicians life. Man I miss Bush already, was slow but atleast he got it, doubt this guy ever will.

hellosnackbar

Seems to me that the majority of bloggers here(with the exception of Patricia,Ruth and Mike)are much more able people than our current government.
Melanie for the nth time gets it
right; and Frank P defines"jihad"
more precisely than anyone I have ever read.kudos!
It's comforting to know that there are still clear thinking people around who are able to see the Islamic menace, as a clear and present danger.
Support for Israel is simple common sense.
Global Islamic sedition must be resisted;and by military force when necessary.

Mark Solomon

What goes around comes around! A slick young inexperienced potential leadership rival put in above his head as foreign secretary who ends up spouting embarassing nonsense all over the place and downplaying the existential threat of the day, a constant embarassment to Britain. David Owen in the Labour government of the late 1970s - it is not just in economic bankruptcy that this government has reverted to type!

kishore thakrar

Britain needs to be on her toes. We know what happened since Babar(first mogul) invaded India though his grandson Akber was a bit reasonable but NO MORE Indians will tolerate Jihadi Islam.

SSS

This is also the same idiot who figured prominently in getting Geert Wilders banned from entering the UK to present his Fitna film.

Mark Adrian Solomon

I remember the humiliating embarassment when David Owen was Foreign Secretary in the 1970s, another golden wonderboy promoted too early to a post of which he clearly had no understanding whatsoever, resulting in endless idiotic actions and humiliations. Labour clearly learned nothing from the mistake of the first Boy David and have appointed another one who is just as bad.

Om Prakash Sudrania

Miliband has a million bands but no brand. He is just a punk picked from white garbage for using as graft. Gordon Brown uses him successfully as his conscript.

Eric

Just look at this little boys background:- He studied Politics, Philosophy and Economics at Corpus Christi College, Oxford. In 1988/9 he won a Kennedy Scholarship to study for a Masters' Degree at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the United States.
David's first job was in the voluntary sector, working for the National Council for Voluntary Organisations. He was then Research Fellow at the Institute for Public Policy Research, and from 1992-94 Secretary of the Commission on Social Justice, set up by the then Leader of the Labour Party, John Smith, to work out new approaches to welfare policy.
From 1994 to 1997 David worked as Head of Policy for Tony Blair, working on the policies that would help Labour into government. He was then Head of the Prime Minister's Policy Unit in Downing Street during Labour's first term in office from 1997 to 2001.
He is just a nice little boy whoâ™s life has been wonderful, no rush, no upsets and all you need to do is talk to people they will come around?