War, lies and credulity

Dee Ranged

A lone sane voice in a sea of evil propoganda.

Thank you Melanie - Keep it up!

David

This article is preposterous. The author has zero credibility and should be ashamed for regurgitating blatantly false information like "maximum number of [Palestinian] civilians killed so far was 250...". Why bother trying to defend use of phosphorus on either side? A 2 year-old will tell you that firing massive amounts of phosphorus shells in densely populated areas -during the day, in DAYLIGHT - is just cruel.

Neil Turner

Great piece Melanie.

I wonder, in the 1940's, how many in the UK complained about the "innocent" civilian casualties in Germany - those same innocents who gave Hitler his power.

Surely, the majority of "innocent civilians" in Gaza are equally to blame, having empowered Hamas to"destroy Israel".

Even their children are being radicalised at the age of 5 to hate Israel.

As the Good book says, if you sow the wind, you will reap the whirlwind

Of course it is horrible to see children hurt, but the whole raisin d'etre for Hamas/Gaza is to destroy Israel

Olaf Rye

It is commonplace to use white phosphorous to create smoke in the battlefield, perhaps to cover helicopter operations or indeed to provide cover to the soldiers operating in that theatre. All combat operations are cruel, insofar that they cause death and injury. However, what critics of Israel have ignored is that Hamas is using white phosphorous in their rockets and there cannot be any justification for this. But why is there no criticism of Hamas ?

As ever, the ostensible concern for the Palestinian people is principally governed by a dislike of Israel. Hence the criticism of the Israeli operation and silence regarding the actions of Hamas. If Hamas had the slightest regard for the civilian population, they would withdraw into regions with no civilian populations or evacuate the civilians from urban regions. Of course, they could also stop firing rockets into Israel ... I know, that is a radical notion !

Simpson-Smith

The type of munition being used by the IDF artillery is (on all the footeage so far released)designed if used lawfully to generate smoke.

The use of this type of payload is not specifically banned by the Geneva Convention.

The problem stems from the fact that it is being set to burst very high which scatters the Phosphorous impregnated felt pads which it contains completely indiscriminately and which is causing the horrific injuries which surgeons are reporting

Air bursting at the sort of altitudes shown on TV footeage negates the designed capability of the munition and is designated as a war crime.

I fully expect the IDF will identify the fuse setters and battery commanders who are responsible for this and hand them over to the International Court in the Hague

Colin

WP is indeed an effective battlefield illumination or screening tool, the key word here being BATTLEFIELD. It's also an incredibly lethal incendiary weapon, especially when deployed against troops fighting in built up areas. But perhaps most effective of all is the psychological impact of the use of WP on troops.

All that said, I shudder to think what the impact this terror weapon is having on the civilians of Gaza. I utterly deplore hamas and all they and their supporters stand for, I really do. But, I think your knee jerk attempt to defend the use of a weapon like WP in a confined, built up area like Gaza really is pathetic and undoes a lot of the good work you are doing.

Scott

David,

Its quite simple really...dont shoot at Israel and Israel wont shoot at you.

Another simple fact is Palestinians had a choice in 2005. They could have lived in peace when Israel pulled out (even though it has a greater claim to the land than the arabs who are now called Palestinians do) or wage war against Israel.

Guess which path the Palestinians took? Yes thats right, they choose to wage war against Israel.

Also, tell me why 60 years after the creation of Israel there are still Palestinian refugee camps in existence? All the more interesting when you consider the 800,000 jews expelled from Arab countries who DONT live in Jewish refugee camps in Israel.

What is cruel though is that people like you dont even realise that your attitudes are exactly what Hamas needs to keep waging war against Israeli civilians.

Straydingo

David…david…david,

Mate it's you that has no credibility just as the UN and every other left wing NGO operating as part of the Hamas PR machine has no credibility.
It's you who is refusing to accept the truth and willingly sucking up the lies that are paraded in front of you by a MSM.
The MSM is sole interested in either a) pushing their own ideological views e.g. BBC or b) wanting to make a buck selling you messages that guarantee you will watch the news or by the paper.

Sam Kent

It's just a shame. As I read this article I literally scoff. So, the author argues that phosphorus is needed by the Zionist (Israeli) army to "illuminate" the field. I agree with David that, what the hell? You need to illuminate the field during the day? Are the Zionist army that blind? What about all the latest geo-thermal sensing equipment their American friends have been supplying, can't you "illuminate" the path with them? Ah yes, we mustn't forget the bombing of the UN-developed school. Oh, what's that I hear: "there were fighters using the school, they were firing rockets at us". The Zionist army clearly knew what was going on. They knew what they had to accompish. They aren't stupid. And neither are we, when they try to brainwash us with pathetic information. What happened to 'targeted killing'? But no, the zionist army is clearly lazy. So what's the solution: "we'll just blow the whole building up, that'll teach 'em".

My God, all these years, Hamas was firing rockets no action by the Zionists take place, then suddenly out of the blue, patience snaps, doesn't it? Boys' toys have to come out to murder and destroy hundreds of innocent lives.

Just remember, 61 years this problem has started. You don't look at the root cause of them problem, do you? And then you think it's OK to start blaming the Palestians for this. Many people already know what kind of atrocities the Zionists have caused since invading Palestine, killing and removing hundreds of thousands of coptic Palestians along the way. Year-by-year, illegally acquiring Palestinian land, against the strict UN resolutions imposed. But it's not long, until the full truth comes out. Because "the truth will set you free", while falsehood will certainly perish.

Most Jews are respected. They are appalled by all this nonsense going on by the Zionist army. They support the Palestians, and they shall continue to do so. But, ignorant 'hoohaas' like the author, for example, certainly think they can win minds with the public and media on creating an impression that it is the Palestians' fault, that they started it all.

Last year, the Zionists thought they should destroy Hezbollah, and now Hamas. What group is next people? Trying to show off your firepower or something? You didn't accomplish anything did you? But nay, countless people lost their lives for nothing. Let the world see and hear about this properly.

How do you end this crisis. Well...the answer is 14 May 1948. Firstly, let Israel consider the 1948 castastrophe, for causing grief to the Palestianian people, all those that died, all those that lost their homeland. Then, you'll see the difference.

richard

You no longer represent anything but your prejudice, bile and hatred. The dustbin of history I think for you.

Pollyanna

David's right -

the trouble only started when the israelis hit back

Ralph

You don't read very well, do you David? White phosporous creates smoke (to cover troop movements), as well as illumination. Much depends on the fuse settting of the artillery shell containing the WP. The Israelis set it to explode high above the ground (for daytime smoke cover and night time illumination). You can see how high they explode from the TV coverage. Hamas used a WP motar shell - set to explode on impact. Its only purpose was to burn. Please condemn Hamas. Thankyou.

Bluey

Thank for this honest, eye-opening article Ms.Phillips. Tin foil hat wearing leftard outrage in ... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

JohnW

David,

Exactly in what way is the article "preposterous" and why does Melanie Phillips have "zero credibility"? Maybe this is the default view from the left-wing terrorist-loving nuthouse that you inhabit, but among sane, more balanced balanced observers, she is regarded as one of the few brave voices telling the truth.

Portofino

Well put Melanie. Contrary to what the snarky Peter above would have us believe, the figures of civilian dead most often quoted in the news are from Hamas itself and I doubt the reliability of their data.

When has the IDF been proven to have used phosphorous in daylight Peter? There's absolutely no need for it and the suggestion only arises in the fertile imaginations of Hamas propagandists.

As to the Gaza school incident, surely the circumstances should be investigated, including the role of UNRWA flacks Ging and Gunness who sing from the Hamas hymn book every time they're interviewed in the media. Why has Hamas been caught on film firing from schools in Gaza? Why does UNRWA employ Hamas operatives?

Cassandra King

Well done and well said Melanie!

Something does not ring true with the UNWRA depot fire, I noticed several suspicious things about the hamas/UNRWA provided pictures of the fire in the warehouse.
I hope the IDF insist on an independent fire investigator goes in ASAP to check if the fires were indeed started by phosperous or some other medium!
Its just too convenient that the hamas/UNRWA activists were complaining about the IDF smokescreens which have caused the hamas terrorists so many problems and hey presto just like magic a hamas/UNRWA outpost just happens to catch fire, how convenient eh?

Miranda Rose Smith

The Red Cross is not known for being pro-Israel. If even THEY admit that the phosphorous was used legitimately, it probably was.

David J

I am confused by an article that complains about media credulity and then quotes the army's PR representative uncritically.

How about we agree to split the difference? Or better yet, the foreign media are permitted into Gaza to check for themselves?

Seymour Goldfarb, Jr, heir to the Goldfarb Girdles fortune

David, Sam Kent: Try paying closer attention when you read. WP is used to illuminate *when it's used as the active component in illumination rounds*, and for generating a screen *when used in smoke rounds*. The daylight use you observe is to generate smoke screens.

The alternative to a high-level airburst is a low-level one. That would be likely to start fires across the area over which operations would then be conducted. This would be counter-productive both in terms of the propaganda value for the Palestinians and their Iranian sponsors. You canimagine the sort of thing - "Israeli firestorm genocide! Gaza the new Dresden!" (Indeed the outrage-porn branches of the western media, like the Independent, would be salivating at the prospect.) Equally significantly, building fires would make subsequent ground manoeuvre much more dangerous.

Although I write as a former soldier, these are not, one would think, points of arcane military minutiae, nor difficult concepts to grasp - unless you are determined to vilify Israel...

Olaf

Sam Kent and Richard:

You both know what these two groups, Hamas and Hezbollah, represent. You both understand their ultimate goal. When everything else is considered, it still comes down to this one simple fact: If Hamas and their ilk put down their weapons, there will be peace. If the Israelis put down theirs, there will be no more Israel. It is a difficult truth to absorb, but when all is considered, the Israelis are justified in their actions.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Sam Kent: If you are well-informed enough to be familiar with the date May 14, 1948, than surely you know that Israel did not cause grief to the "Palestinians." Historically and culturally and linguistically, the "Palestinians" are Arabs. The U.N. voted to partition Palestine, as it was then called, voted to partition what was left of what the Balfour Declaration said was supposed to be the Jewish homeland after Britain hacked off 80% of it in 1921 to create the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, into Jewish and Arab states. Most Jews were willing to accept this. No Arab states were. Five or seven-I forget which-Arab states attacked Israel. It was only then that SOME Arabs were expelled. Others left voluntarilly. They figured Israel would be defeated in a week and they could come back and loot Jewish property. This is called "betting on the wrong horse." It was the Arab states who refused to accept the U.N. partition plan, the Arab states who told the Arabs in Palestine to leave so that they, the Arab states, could finish off the Jews, and it is the Arab states in general and Jordan in particular that have kept the "Palestinians" stateless for 60 years, so that they could say to a gullible, loves-to-mask-its-anti-Semitism-as moral-indignation-world, to useful idiots like you, "You have to kick the Jews out to make room for these people." It was the Arab states who blew the "Palestinian's" opportunity to have a SECOND autonomous homeland. The Arab states in general and Jordan in particular, could solve the refugee problem tomorrow if they would just take in the refugees, the way the new and desperately poor state of Israel took in Jewish refugees that were expelled from Arab countries. I don't think you bother yourself about them, or about the ethnic Germans who were expelled from Poland and Czechoslavakia, or about the East Indians who were expelled from Kenya. You only bother yourself about the "Palestinians," because you hope they will finish off Israel for you.

wrighty

Neil: "Even their children are being radicalised at the age of 5 to hate Israel."

One often reads błllsh1t such as this. Do you think they need to be TAUGHT ? Israeli F16's and helicopter gunships aren't exactly going to inspire LOVE, are they ?

Raymond Joseph Douglas

Arabs killed by fellow Arabs, muslims killed by fellow Muslims, far out weigh Arabs killed by Jews !

David Jones

I am confused by an article that complains about media credulity and then quotes an army PR representative uncritically.

Why not let the foreign media enter Gaza to check the figures for themselves?

gary

"Col. Moshe Levi,the CLA had compiled a list with the names of 900 of the Palestinians killed during the fighting."

Israel knows the names of 900 of the Palestinians they have killed. Israel, who is accused of inhuman mass murder knows their enemies and their civilian associates by name as individuals. Hamas doesn't care who it is that they kill as long as it's Jews.

JohnW

Wrighty,

The radicalism of kindergarten age kids is a reality. I have seen it with my own eyes in Iraq, and I know it is replicated in other Arab countries. Suggest you research the subject before condemning.

David J

Miranda Rose Smith,

"It was only then that SOME Arabs were expelled. Others left voluntarilly. They figured Israel would be defeated in a week and they could come back and loot Jewish property."

Truly you are ferociously well informed if you know exactly what was on the minds of people you have never met over 60 years ago.

phil

sam kent you have a lot to say and perhaps we would give you some credence ,but I for one will not because your rant is one with the flavour only of hate .When you find the need to call the IDF the Zionist army ,I scroll down .you obviously do not know anything about either Israel or Zionism -I suggest you go and take some lessons and when you have ,you may not find it necessary to write like a jerk .

simon

You re so right. And the youths killed in Palestine, all of those are growing up to hate us, to bomb us and kill us.

That s is why it is so important to netraulise as many of these young people now we still can while we can, so that they do not grow up to hate us.

Michael

I am so confused by this article and the reactions to it.

It seems that although innocent civilians are dying, its alright though because really its not as many as Hamas have stated and they always mess around with figures with this sort of thing etc.

So lets rely on an Israeli army office instead for the truthful view! Laughable.

Both sides are engaged in the propaganda war, not just Hamas.

It is an absolutely untenable moral position to adopt the kind of thinking that mirrors the approaches of those involved in the prosecution of total war - the allowance of collateral damage in pursuit of the goals of the campaign. And thats how I feel about this piece. It seems to sidestep any kind of human morality to simply imply that if civilians fall, they fall, but only in the numbers that MY side dictates can be written down and given to the press, and in that case those numbers aren't so high so hey ho, on we go.

Not the attitude of anyone enlightened or with a grip on the reality of conflict.

Everyman and his dog knows (or need to know) that Hamas are a despicable organisation that seeks to exploit the helplessness of its own population.

However, the catch all approach by the Israeli administration in response to the cowardly rocket attacks against its innocent civilians will never, ever prosper.

Both sides are guilty of propagating this particular conflict. Hamas - to fan the embers of Islamic jihadism and Israeli hardline Zionists who wish to quash the Palestinian/Arab presence and further their absolutist cause.

The medieval mindsets of both parties (and, it would seem, Melanie herself) will see to it that this barbarism rages for years and generations to come. And that certainly seems to suit the writing style and agenda being forced forward on these pages.

Which in turn makes a mockery of those who support Melanie's arguments that they represent a more civilised approach than anything shown by the 'butchers' of Hamas. Quite how she, Hamas and their sympathizers, and those who support Melanie, can seemingly lay claim to any kind of moral high ground is simply astounding.

But hey! That’s fundamentalism for you I guess….

Augustus

Considering some of the stupid comments written on this blog it would seem that the spirit of anti-Semitism is alive and well. How dare these Jews actually defend themselves? The long history of of the world's hatred and oppression of the Jewish people would fill whole libraries. Suffice it to say that the incessant spewing of anti-Jewish propaganda constantly seeks to vilify and demonize the Jewish people. And today the torch of Jew-hatred is principally carried by Islamic propagandists.

Israel is a shining beacon of democracy and freedom in the Middle East. Their very existence represents a threat to the brutal Arab regimes surrounding this tiny country. If the people living under those megalomaniacal dictatorships ever got a real taste of freedom, those leaders would be dispatched post-haste by their own people to meet their God Allah.

Each time a Hamas or Hezbollah rocket falls on an Israeli town it is a missile aimed at the heart of humanity. And by positioning their missile launchers in schools, hospitals, and apartment buildings, the terrorists cynical disregard for the innocent among their own people is truly beneath contempt. Israel's battle against Hamas, and ultimately every other hate group that comprises the hydra-headed monster of Islamic extremism, is a battle for the freedom of the Palestinian people, and indeed for the entire Western world. Make no mistake about that!

Dave

Augustus; "If the people living under those megalomaniacal dictatorships ever got a real taste of freedom, those leaders would be dispatched post-haste by their own people to meet their God Allah."

Yeah. How did that work out in Iraq?

Louise

I aologise if this has been posted elsewhere but I think it's worth publicising:
Gaza-based Norwegian doctor Dr Mads Gilbert, who so frequently turns up on out TV screens to condemn what the Israelis are doing in Gaza as "murder", was asked by Norwegian newspaper "Dagbladet" whether he supported the 9/11 attacks. He replied: "Terror is a bad weapon but the answer is yes."

So yet another "objective observer" that Al Beeb and the rest of the world media uses to demonise Israel.
What sheer hypocrisy on the good doctor's part!

JohnW

"Arabs killed by fellow Arabs, muslims killed by fellow Muslims," - exactly RJD.

The unpalatable fact for the useful idiots that infest the UK is that Muslims have been killing each other for thousands of years, long before the Israelis were targeted by Arafat and his successors. History is full of such conflicts that the Left never ever mentions. One example of which I have personal knowledge - the Iran/Iraq war from 1980-88. In this war, approximately 1 million were killed on both sides, with Iran using children of 8 years of age and up in countless human wave attacks against Iraq. Along with Arab children being used as human shields for terrorists in Gaza, this is all a common theme - Muslims have no qualms whatsoever about killing each other and using young children in the process. Despite this, there has not been one anguished socialist or student activist seen on any British street protesting against any of these inhuman Muslim atrocities.

phil

simon this has been said here by someone who is using the name simon -if you are Jewish please do not write a message like this -it does not represent our thoughts, our culture, or our beliefs -it is a terrible thing to say and it is what hitler said about the Jews -maybe you are an agent provocateur .if you are,, you are doing a good job ,if not please remember what kind of people we are and do not ever say that again .

YA

Message from Hamas - in Jewish hands, any weapon is forbidden and illegal.

MSM infos from conflict repeat, now already without any changes (too lazy.. you know), the phraseology and meaning of terrorist propaganda: "Hamas proposes 1 year ceasefire" and all that jazz.

All "international community", shaking in fear of murderous mobs terrorizing hearts of European cities, - is trying to convince itself that by saving that cannibal tribe of Gaza from demise, one could buy status of privileged dhimmi from tomorrow masters.

Nice one from Banki-Mun today:
"we have no time to loose now".
FY Banki - these orks that you grew in Gaza in thousands, had lot of time to shell Israel haven't they?

Nevertheless, in my local store, veggies marked "ISRAEL" are vanishing with extraordinary speed..
People probably buy them in protest.. in order to slash them, salt their woundns, cook them in oil, and squeeze juuz form them..

Carl

So why did the IDF feel the need to lie and deny that they were using WP, until exposed by the Times? They are using an inhumane weapon against civilians, that is why.

J. Isaacs, heir to the Isaacs Library of Jewish Humour

Dear Seymour Goldfarb Jr., heir to the Goldfarb girdles fortune. Your comment makes fascinating reading. I wonder whether you have ever considered manufacturing Kevlar girdles. I am getting on a bit now and would very much like to acquire such an article of apparel in the current UK political climate.

Adam B.

wrighty, sheer ignorance again. You're saying that by resisting those you hate you and are trying to destroy you, you make them hate you even more. How very silly. Grow up and construct a coherent argument.

Eric

Israeli disregard for Palestinian civilian life is a testament to the worst side of humans.
Hamas intends to kill civilians and kills 3.
Israel intends not to kill any civilians and kills a thousand.
How does this veneer that Israel states about the moral 'difference in intention' transpire in reality?

phil

Eric ,because I am committed .I have to spend unnecessary time answering posts like this ,but I will -how many do you think hamas intended to kill and were any of them soldiers?The Israelis built shelters to avoid the thousands that may have been killed ,hamas engineered an attack that they knew would kill so many ,and when the fog clears we no doubt will find as usual that they have lied -that is what they do .I-----------------I know you will not admit it ,but deep down you well know who is the moral party here .If you cannot see it do a small exercise and then decide what Israel has to gain from all this ,they left Gaza ,they gave back Egyptian Sinai ,also Jordanian territory,left Lebanon ,everyone of them places they have no interest to be in ,but were there because invading armies necessitated it and that has continued since 1948 .They signed peace treaties with both Jordan and Egypt and live in peace with them -is there anything else I need to tell you? if so just ask .

Adam B.

Eric, 1000 civilians have not dies. That is a lie. Why not make it a million?

Dave M

"Many people already know what kind of atrocities the Zionists have caused since invading Palestine, killing and removing hundreds of thousands of coptic Palestians along the way."

Let's be sensible. Speaking as an average Briton, and from a logical perspective, I know I have nothing to fear from Israel, Judaism or even the I.D.F. Have Jews ever planted bombs in London or driven trucks into airports with no regard for human life? No, but Islamic terrorists have done. Have Jews ever bombed nightclubs in Bali, trains in Madrid or indeed crashed airliners into tower blocks? That is, things that can kill you or me at random? No, but Jihadist fanatics have done. Have Jews held rallies in London and Paris calling for censorship of the press over their religion and threatening violence within Europe unless they are heeded? No, but radical Muslims have. Has the IDF ever walked into a school and wired it up with children inside to use as human shields? Nope, but Jihadists have. So, the truth is I have nothing to fear from a minority group of people who inhabit a tiny chunk of land called Israel. Clearly these latter aren't bothered about forcing their beliefs onto myself or others and merely want to be left in peace. I do, however, have plenty to fear from some Jihadist nutcase who could possibly blow up a bus, train or tram I happen to be on. All that in the belief 72 virgins will be the reward of such psychotic behaviour. If you ask me, we'd all be better off if Israel actually expanded its borders and grew in influence instead of us all uselessly trying to appease extremist elements of the Islamic World. Most people just don't get it. Jews are an isolated, relatively peaceful community. Sure, they are capable of harsh measures when forced into war and are not beyond criticism but, in reality, they threaten no-one. If the Islamic World just counted their blessings, appreciated the fact they have billions of their citizens in Europe as well as vast expanses of land in the Middle East, then there would be peace.

Carl

Let's just hope that President Obama will not give the Israeli State carte blanche to go on committing atrocities. A sharp cut in aid will quickly bring them to heel.

YA

Eric:

Once Hamas sent a brainwashed suicide idiot to bomb the line of people in front of Dolphi discoteque in Tel Aviv. A bomb killed 20, mostly teenaged girls.

Another such idiot was sent to bomb Sbarro pizzeria in Jerusalem.

And another one bombed the Park hotel in Netaniya where senior citizens gathered to celebrate Passover.

And another 70 cases like that, buses, streets, restaurants.

They did it INTENTIONALLY, and took RESPONSIBILITY for IT, and said and continue to say - this is Palestinian NATIONAL ASPIRATION, and say IT IS SANCTIFIED BY ALLAH.

Israelis say that they FIGHT TERRORISTS, and that non-combatants can only die as a result of their actions BY MISTAKE.

In this operation, Israelis have 10 combat casualties and 4 of them were from FRIENDLY FIRE.
Go out from your bunker and try to understand it - in war one even can kill one's OWN FELLOW SOLDIERS by mistake.
Not talking about bystanders.

Today UN strongly condemned killing of 2 Palestinian children in Gaza by IDF.
IDF will NEVER say that these children were killed intentionally.

Among recent Israeli civilian casualties - 50 years old man, 39 years old woman and another 27 years old man (an Israeli Arab BTW).
Hamas didn't say and will NEVER say these civilians were killed unintentionally.

So - who is the bad guy here, and whom UN should condemn first, and where is UN's condemnation of Hamas?

Sergey

Carl, Obama would cut his own throat by cutting aid to Israel after he publicly sworn not to do anything to undermine Israeli safety. And his principal adjutants Rahlm Emmanuel and David Axelrod would never allow him to commit political suicide.

phil

Carl your choice of words bring to mind the infamous piece of film where a nazi officer puts a whip under a very old ladies chin in order to "bring her to heel"
--do we have any coincidence here ?what a sick minded individual .!!

HarleyDavidson

Carl, Eric
Where were you when those of us who support Israel were writing on blogs, screaming, begging, pleading for anyone to listen to us about Hamas rockets? Had you all marched in the streets, wrote on blogs, condemned Hamas when the rockets were falling not a SINGLE Palestinian would be dead today. Not one! Where were you? Your silence caused the deaths of a thousand Palestinians because you and your ilk did and said NOTHING.

Why were we begging and pleading, hoping, someone, anyone would listen to us? Because we knew Israel would have to defend themselves sooner or later. Not a single one of you stood up and defended Israel's right to be left alone. Not one of you! Jews were getting rocketed and that was perfectly fine as long as Jews were on the receiving end! Did you speak up? Even once?

Why didn't you help US stop the killing before it could even begin? What have you gained by your silence? What? Name me one accomplishment you achieved by your deafening silence?

Now Israel has finally acted to stop the rockets and even your shrill screams now mean nothing. Not a thing. It too late. Over a thousand are dead, countless damage and destruction has occurred, so what in the hell have you achieved?

Let me explain what you achieved. Your own citizens living in your own towns and cities are subjected to Muslims fanatics running around your nation smashing and burning as they see fit. The hard left in your own nation taking to the streets supporting Muslim fanatics as they smash and burn your own citizen businesses, a wave of hate and hysteria turning your own citizen against one another that will not be healed anytime soon if ever. Furthermore, your government and your nation has shown itself to be incompetent and utterly useless in stopping its own internal war amongst its own citizens in turn placing Britain entirely on the side lines in fact rendering Britain impotent in the fact of this war. Your foreign affairs minister has shown himself and in turn Britain as little more than a laughing stock to the world at large.

If anything this war has rearranged the power players like no other. Only America, Russia, Israel, and China remain standing as world powers. In the Middle East this war has rearranged this world unlike any before. The split between the Iran backed players has been answered by the Egyptian backed world in a public manner few if any of us have ever seen in our lives.

So what did your silence achieve? Not a single thing. But the world changed around you all while you were too busy tearing up your own country. When you and your kind eventually wake up, if ever, the silent majority in your country will have changed your government because the good people of this great nation have had enough of tearing itself apart brought on by fools like you.

Personally speaking, most of us on this side of the pond will then sit back and laugh our a$ off knowing full well Israel helped expose you too your own people and too your nation as fools. What a great day for Britain!

Wyn

Harley-Davidson. What a splendid bit of commentary, couldn't have put it better myself!

Adam B.

Harley Davidson, watch the haters beat a hasty retreat. They simply won't answer you, because they can't. For them it's much better to speak in brainless slogans.

KM

Harley/
The silent so called majority in Britain today have allowed this Quisling Govt to relinquish all our hard fought for rights and freedoms. What we have is a bunch of self serving elitist cowards hell bent on destroying all that was GREAT about Britain. They have destroyed all Christian/Western Family values and moral codes replacing it with a gut wrenching psychotic multicultural wasteland. I am afraid that we have allowed this liberal tree hugging bullshit to create a vacuum into which every form of minority grievance is allowed precedence over the wishes of the majority. This includes allowing halfwitted muppets like Millibanal to bring utter disgrace to us with his idiotic condemnations/philosophy. The majority are too busy shopping and drinking to give a damn !!. We have forgotten to stand and be counted , the difference between right and wrong , most of all we have forgotten that it takes a backbone and courage to fight when threatened by minorities who want to extinguish our way of life.
By our feeble selfishness we have forgotten what it takes to be a Nation , proud of our long held values and strong in defence of them.
Maybe just maybe our Arthurian spirit will reawaken, rise up and reclaim our heritage !!.
But don't hold your breath !!
Israel should fight and those that think War is a game in which rules apply only to one side are due for extinction rapidly !!.

Carl

Israel a world power? Don't make me laugh - it is nothing more than a regional bully. The whole world saw how the IDF ran from Lebanon after their invasion met with resistance.

phil

HarleyDavidson-hats off to you .brilliant piece-but the response no doubt will be "ass--le !where,s da beer?"------------
every nation has its idiots but ours are growing existentially.

phil

KM where did you suddenly arrive from with a breath of fresh air and commonsense? Your post was immediately franked by the asinine carl ,prior to his mammoth visit to the pub -keep writing please ,we need more real Brits here .

KM

Phil, oh I have been following the decline of western values and civilization for many years.
This self flagellation of our values by spineless, elitist politicians and their caffeine free minions has just finally aroused my ire. One more voice to be pilloried by our constipated self-haters....bring it on !!

Adam B.

Carl, you are apparently unaware of the glaring contradiction in your post. On one hand, you call Israel "a regional bully" but on the other, you say that Israel "ran" at the first sign of "resistance", thus portraying it as weak. The logical conclusion of that assertion is that Israel is vulnerable to the existential threats of Hamas, Hizbollah and Iran, not to mention its more heavily armed immediate neighbours in the shape if Syria and Egypt. But I bet that's not what you wanted to say! Carl I have a question, as every post you write is yet another mindless attack on Israel: do you condemn the Hamas charter? None of the haters have answered this yet.

Adam B.

carl, whilst you're at it, why don't you respond to har;ey davidson's qustion? Or are you going to scarper now the going's got tough?

Janet

Harley Davidson - Great,great,
greeeeeeeeeeat one.. whatever
happened to the great British
Empire, lost it's nerve, afraid
to speak up for what they know is right,put an end to the
vandalisation...Rule Britannia
Britannia Rules the Waves...
I don't think so, your spine
has taken a dive.....if your
lucky maybe Israel will throw
you a lifejacket....

HarleyDavidson

Wyn, Phil, KM, Adam B,
Thanks you all. Sorry about the spelling and grammar, but like KM's post my ire was hard to control at the time. However, it was you all and others on this blog who refused to be intimidated and actually grew stronger in your beliefs as the past few weeks unfolded. That's an amazing thing to read, piece by piece, blog by blog, day by day, you all reduced your opposition to repetitive drivel or rewriting history perhaps best taught in a UN chartered school in Gaza.

As long as men and women like you live England is indeed in the finest of hands!

YA

Here is the recipe for creating Gaza-type zoo in any other place on earth:

1.food and healthcare given for free

2.skyrocketing birthrate

3.vampire ideology, a toxic mix of fascism, religious fundamentalism, and stone-age tribalism

4.weapons payed by, and smuggled with assistance of internationally recognized Mordor state

..So European leaders are worried about illegal weapons proliferation, - oh really?

Carl

Adam - A question from Harley? More a long drawn out whinge and anti British post from a Brit hating chump. I'm sure that his hot air is most valuable to the US war effort. Oh yes Adam, I'm still here, bullies don't make me run.

Wagner

Harley,
There was no march against Hamas because they already had a huge range of power directed against them. They were financially and politically isolated globally and were under an economic blockade. People aren't going to cheerlead a state which is capable of the carnage unleashed by Israel.
Absolutely sickening reference to the UN school by the way. Its good to see that the war's supporters on this forum has been whittled down to a rabid hardcore.

Adam B.

Carl, you still haven't answered my question about the Hamas charter. This silence from you on this matter is most disconcerting. Wagner (like taking the name of the Nazis' favourite anti-semite do you?) there were no marches against Hamas and its racist ideology because you, and all the other hypocritical hysterical slogan screaming lefties and hateful anti-semitic Islamists support it. Just like there are no marches about 4 MILLION murdered souls in Congo, or 400,000 in Darfur (a genocide supported by the Arab League). It's in vogue to attack Israel and the US, and all the unthinking clueless automotons of the left couldn't care less about 4 million dead Africans. But hey, it's not repeated on your TV screens day and night, so you can pretend it isn't really happening, and you can stay in your comfort zone of blaming the Jews. It's your worldview which is sickening and full of hypocritical double standards.

Adam B.

Carl, do you have a victim complex? From your last sentence, you seem to believe that you're being bullied now.

julian

what a terrible article?
its commentary, not journalism..
hams lies but the IDf don't, you cant trust the figures released by Hamas, who seem somewhat closer to the fighting but of course you can trust the figures provided by the Israeli organisations.
This commentator claims the in general you can believe the Israeli's " In general, the Israelis tell the truth. They may not tell the whole truth; and on occasion they provide information which is later shown to be wrong" - but apparently when Israel states something that is later to be shown to be wrong, it's not a lie?

And this commentator, is she reporting from Gaza? no, Israel of course will not allow foreign journalists into Gaza to see or witness for themslves, this commentator parrots the Israeli line 100%, apparently blowing up a UN school and killing 43 Palestinians is ok with her because the IDF said there was firing occuring nearby.
Oh, a number of Hamas operatives were killed, well, that's ok..i mean, we have Israel's word on that..all though im still not sure what a hamas operative is..my understanding was that Hamas are the democratically united nations sanctioned government in Palestine..so does being a member of a government or a political party immediately label you an operative?
The same parliamentary party that Israel has kidnapped more than 40 members of and held in detention?

There are journalists and commentators and then there are what we call toadying parrots, of which this commentator is clearly such -
Accept the IDF & Israeli line unquestioningly, they are honest in their slaughter but do not believe the victims is the message she offers.

Julian

Harley - let me answer your question..
Israel's own rather biased statistics for the last 8 years state that Israeli casualties of rockets and suicide bombers, in the last 8 years have amounted to 42 deaths of Israeli civilians - Since July 12 2000, Hizballah fired 3,790 rockets across the border into Israel. Of these, 901 landed in communities, and 42 civilians were killed as a result. The Health Ministry said 4,262 civilians were treated in hospitals for injuries. Of these, 33 were seriously wounded, 68 moderately, and 1,388 lightly. Another 2,773 civilians were treated for shock.”

I do not know if this includes non Israeli citizens as of course there are 1 million odd arabs in Israel itself who are not of the jewish faith so are of course not permitted to be classed as citizens.

In the same 8 year period in Palestine - Palestinian casualties are as listed -

Deaths 5,179
Injuries 8837
Live Ammunition 7208
Rubber/ Plastic Bullet 6719
Tear Gas 10270
thats an average of 8 people killed per day in Gaza as a result of rockets, bombs missiles, most of them innocent victims of Israel's continued bombardment of Gaza..
israel has not sat while a rain of rockets has fallen upon them, Israel has never stopped firing into Gaza in the last 8 years.

Where were you when Palestinians begged for Israel to hold to the peace, to stop sending missiles because at some stage Hamas would have to defend itself, wouldnt it?

Israel is not a victim, it is the instigator.
Israel has a history of pre-emptive strikes / pre emptive defence - read attacking and invading, just 18 months ago israel invaded Lebanon and killed 1000 civilians there.
Israel will never, ever renounce violence.

phil

Carl stop sucking your thumb .how can an anonymous man be bullied ?--now read the post I put up this morning on the mild mannered thread .I will not change your mind but you will have been enlightened -its at 10.48-we all await your interseting observations

Carl

Phil, please grow up. That way you will become a better person and may even begin to understand why Israel is well on the way to, rightly, becoming a pariah state. And yes, I read your post and am glad that you are able to cut and paste such a long stream of biased claptrap.

phil

Julian you are obviously an ignorant person or one who enjoys hating Israel .You can tell us which , I say ignorant because you will not be able to come up with one reason why Israel would want a fight with any of its neighbours -I will ask you is it territorially beneficial? they did leave Gaza you know and saw all the infrastructure they had left destroyed by the insane vandalism of hamas -they are at peace with Egypt,having left the SINAI--.Is it economically beneficial?-do I really need to answer that ? Does it make it more popular ?crass -SO why do you think it fights these people other than in defence of its citizens -I look forward to a learned piece from you ASAP .On a very personal note Julian ,I would like to think I do not waste my time like this but sadly I am pretty sure I do -If I change one mind like yours I will feel I have changed the world to a better place .

phil

Carl interesting though wasn,t it? ,and have you noticed how all grown up people are appalled by hamas even every western government ,but I suppose you dont like our form of government-you know democratic and peace loving.-carl you are at least earning yourself a reputation here as the most stupid poster ,maybe even amusing ,depends on one,s sense of humour .

Carl

Phil, the day I have to worry about what an ageing apologist thinks of me...... And do try and learn about the difference between apostrophes and commas.

phil

Carl-sorry I can,t resist .I usually have to look at old benny hill videos to get so much amusement-you have me wrong sonny I am making no apologies -you stick to grammar I WILL STICK TO THE TRUTH AND COMMON SENSE -OVER

phil

here is something interesting for you to read Julian in case you missed it when I sent it to mike the original who is anything but -let me know what you think or are you one of the "sting like a bee ,float like a butterfly"type

From Youssef M. Ibrahim, a former New York Times Middle East Correspondent and Wall Street Journal Energy Editor for 25 years, is a freelance writer based in New York City and Dubai in the United Arab Emirates .

To my Arab brothers:

The War with Israel Is Over - and they won.

Dear Palestinian Arab brethren: The war with Israel is over. You have lost. Surrender and negotiate to secure a future for your children. We, your Arab brothers, may say until we are blue in the face that we stand by you, but the wise among you and most of us know that we are moving on, away from the tired old idea of the Palestinian Arab cause and the "eternal struggle" with Israel . Dear friends, you and your leaders have wasted three generations trying to fight for Palestine , but the
truth is the Palestine you could have had in 1948 is much bigger than the one you could have had in 1967, which in turn is much bigger than what you may have to settle for now or in another 10 years.

Struggle means less land and more misery and utter loneliness. At the moment, brothers, you would be lucky to secure a semblance of a state in that Gaza Strip into which you have all crowded, and a small part of the West Bank of the Jordan . It isn't going to get better. Time is running out even for this much land, so here are some facts, figures, and
sound advice, friends.

You hold keys, which you drag out for television interviews, to houses that do not exist or are inhabited by Israelis who have no intention of leaving Jaffa , Haifa , Tel Aviv, or West Jerusalem . You shoot old guns at modern Israeli tanks and American-made fighter jets, doing virtually no harm to Israel while bringing the wrath of its mighty army down upon you. You fire ridiculously inept Kassam rockets that cause little destruction and delude yourselves into thinking this is a war of
liberation.

Your government, your social institutions, your schools, and your economy are all in ruins. Your young people are growing up illiterate, ill, and bent on rites of death and suicide, while you, in effect, are living on the kindness of foreigners, including America and the United Nations. Every day your officials must beg for your daily bread, dependent on relief trucks that carry food and medicine into the Gaza Strip and the West Bank , while your criminal Muslim fundamentalist Hamas government continues to fan the flames of a war it can neither fight nor hope to win.

In other words, brothers, you are down, out, and alone in a burnt-out landscape that is shrinking by the day. What kind of struggle is this? Is it worth waging at all? More important, what kind of miserable future does it portend for your children, the fourth or fifth generation of the Arab world's have-nots? We, your Arab brothers, have moved on.

Those of us who have oil money are busy accumulating wealth and building housing, luxury developments, state-of-the-art universities and schools, and new highways and byways. Those of us who share borders with Israel , such as Egypt and Jordan , have signed a peace treaty with it and are not going to war for you any time soon. Those of us who are far
away, in places like North Africa and Iraq , frankly could not care less about what happens to you.

Only Syria continues to feed your fantasies that someday it will join you in liberating Palestine , even though a huge chunk of its territory, the entire Golan Heights, was taken by Israel in 1967 and annexed. The Syrians, my friends, will gladly fight down to the last Palestinian Arab. Before you got stuck with this Hamas crowd, another cheating, conniving, leader of yours, Yasser Arafat, sold you a rotten bill of goods - more pain, greater corruption, and millions stolen by his relatives
- while your children played in the sewers of Gaza .

The war is over. Why not let a new future begin?

Youssef M. Ibrahim, a former New York Times Middle East Correspondent and Wall Street Journal Energy Editor for 25 years, is a freelance writer based in New York City and Dubai in the United Arab Emirates .

Romo

And today hundreds of perceived 'Fatah collaborators' are being lynched, brutally tortured and murdered by, guess who? You got it, those 'victors' Hamas! It doesn't get any better... Who can the MSM blame now?

Adam B.

Julian, there are so many problems with your post I have neither the time nor inclination to deal with them all - but you truly expose your utter pigheaded ignorance by claiming that Israel's Arab citizens aren't...well, citizens. There are approximately one and a half million Arabs who live inside Israel, about 23% of the population. They are Israeli citizens, and enjoy more rights and freedoms than any other Arabs in the Middle East. There are Arab parties sitting in the Knesset, they partake freely in elections and the Bedouin even volunteer for the Israel defence Forces (Arab citizens are exempted national service, unless of course, they wish to volunteer). There are also thousands of Druze, and thousands who are neither Jewish, Arab or Druze, like Circassians, Armenians and Russian non-Jews. Many of them are citizens. You do NOT have to be Jewish to be an Israeli citizen, that is an outright poisonous and ignorant lie. This puts the rest of what you have to say in the bin marked "mutterings of a hateful ignoramus." By contrast, a Jew is unable to become a citizen of Jordan or Saudi Arabia by law, and Jews who live in most parts of the islamic world suffer discrimination and legal prejudice, or even violence, as do Christians. It's called dhimmitude, look it up and get educated. The Palestinian Authority has made it clear that Jews will be unable to live in any future Palestinian state. Of course none of that apartheid against non-Muslims bothers you at all, because your lefty obsessive hatred of all things Israeli blinds you to these unpalatable truths.

Adam B.

Carl, still no answer...could it be that you agree with Hamas' virulent anti-semitism, its call to exterminate every Jew? Come on, don't be shy!

Wagner

Adam B,
I've taken part in marches against the genocide in Darfur and the occupation of Tibet. Would you be happier if the Gaza invasion got the same amount of coverage as the Congo-the IDF would be even less accountable. When supposed democracies go to war they are held up to a higher standard of behaviour than countries like the Congo. If you want Israel to be classed in the same league as Russia, Sudan and the Congo, fine.

Adam B.

Julian, there are so many problems with your post I have neither the time nor inclination to deal with them all - but you truly expose your utter ignorance by claiming that Israel's Arab citizens aren't...well, citizens. There are approximately one and a half million Arabs who live inside Israel, about 23% of the population. They are Israeli citizens, and enjoy more rights and freedoms than any other Arabs in the Middle East. There are Arab parties sitting in the Knesset, they partake freely in elections and the Bedouin even volunteer for the Israel Defence Forces (Arab citizens are exempted national service, unless of course, they wish to volunteer). There are also thousands of Druze, and thousands who are neither Jewish, Arab or Druze, like Circassians, Armenians and Russian non-Jews. Many of them are citizens. You do NOT have to be Jewish to be an Israeli citizen, that is an outright poisonous and ignorant lie. This puts the rest of what you have to say in the bin marked "mutterings of an ignoramus." By contrast, a Jew is unable to become a citizen of Jordan or Saudi Arabia by law, and Jews who live in most parts of the Islamic world suffer discrimination or even violence, as do Christians. It's called dhimmitude, look it up and get educated. The Palestinian Authority has made it clear that Jews will be unable to live in any future Palestinian state. Of course none of that apartheid against non-Muslims bothers you at all, because your obsessive hatred of all things Israeli blinds you to these unpalatable truths.

Adam B.

Carl, still thinking about your answer? Or are you afraid to admit it?

phil

ADAM B julians gone .as they always do because their scholarship amounts to a rant, .good for their egos ,when confronted with knowledge and reason they are off into the ether -sad people as no doubt their lives are too -I have never met a happy achiever who was anti -semitic ,only bitter people .

Carl

Why would I bother to answer a "when did you stop beating your wife" type question from somebody that supports military action against women and children?

Adam B.

Nice way of avoiding the question Carl. I will answer yours - I do not support military action against women and children, although I did support it against the Nazis of Hamas who embedded themselves amongst civilians. Now perhaps you will answer whether you condemn the Hamas charter?

Adam B.

Wagner (is that your real name or are you an admirer of the anti-semitic composer?)that's called a double standard. Thanks for making it clear that you have them.

Adam B.

phil, that's very true - neither have I. perhaps that's why they're drawn to the nihilism offered by the islamists.

Wagner

Its not a double standard to hold the IDF to a greater level of accountability than Hamas. Hamas are ostensibly religious fundamentalists who we have already ostracised while Israel is ostensibly a civilised democracy whom we trade with,arm, and support. The IDF has a history of accidentally hitting sheltering civilians in UN bunkers. One would think that they would strive to avoid this, at least to have some respect for their allies' values. Time and again, though, with the settlements, the checkpoints, the dmolitions, the extrajudicial killings, they show that they don'tcare what the west thinks. OK, then, just don't count on my support. If we are to arm them, the least we can expect is that they use these resources with the longer term in mind and not just to win elections.
Never mind, after today this whole blog becomes irrelevant.

David

Do you know that many of you guys are defending war crimes? Amnesty International has accused Israel of war crimes (for like the 50th time):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/20/israel-war-crimes-phosphorus

Augustus

David, yes, why bother to defend war at all? "Except for ending slavery, fascism, nazism, and communism, war has never solved anything."

David

Augustus, no. We are talking about war CRIMES.

No decent human being should defend war crimes. There are very specific international laws that civilized nations abide to -- or ought to abide to -- that protect civilians and help minimize the impact of war on their lives. Yes I can hear you all: 'but HAMAS commits war crimes'; of course it does, I will not mirror your inhumanity and deny a war crime when I see one. But let's be frank: these exact same war crimes are regularly committed by Israel BUT on a much much much greater scale and with much much much more lethal weapons and with unimaginably more terrorizing effects.

But why does Hamas act in such a barbarous fashion? Because they are born that way? Because they are vile, inhumane people who deserve your hatred? Did they just wake up one morning and decide, hmm lets see, which military super-power can I piss the hell out of?? Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, THE MAIN CAUSE of all this bloodshed is Israel's brutal OCCUPATION of Palestinian Territories that's been going on for many decades, long before any rocket was launched or any suicide bomber took his life along with Israelis' in a bus or café?

Just as you defend war, Augustus, as being sometimes necessary to end injustices, you must then also defend Palestinians who are resisting an unjust occupation, fighting for their rights, for their land, for the freedom to live without military OCCUPATION.

Recall the words of your noble David Ben Gurion: "Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves...we are the aggressors and they defend themselves...The country is theirs."

Occupation begets resistance. This will never change. Without the occupation there would be no resistance. The surest way for Israel to ensure its own security would be for it to adhere to the scores of UN resolutions that call for it to end its illegal occupation. It's that simple.

phil

David you write with an admirable passion and an unbreakable belief that you are right -but may I tell you that I believe your knowledge of this conflict is not deep enough -no matter -just ask yourself why is there an occupation ? ---------

May I tell you it is because of the never ending attacks on the Israeli state starting in1948 and then in 1967 Gaza was entered along with SINAI AND JORDAN -peace has been made with Egypt and Jordan and the lands returned ,those countries do not attack Israel -Meanwhile hamas and previously fatah/plo have never signed a peace treaty and in fact the stated aim of hamas is to annihilate Israel,and you have seen them trying to do it --------------I have not even mentioned 1973

.Israel is trying to protect its citizens and can have no ambition to stay in Gaza as they have demonstrated,so if hamas agreed to end this war they would have Gaza back in double quick time ,they would have neighbours willing to help them build a prosperous and healthy state where children could look forward to a full and happy life .but they refuse .so please tell me your solution .

I have to tell you it is beyond me as to why hamas continue this stupid war -don't know how old you are but I remember fighting in the playground as a kid and I never put my fists down until the other guy stopped trying to hit me -a simple analogy maybe ,but sensible don't you think?

JHT

QUOTE: "David you write with an admirable passion and anunbreakable belief that you are right -but may I tell you that I believe your knowledge of this conflict is not deep enough -no matter -just ask yourself why is there an occupation ?
May I tell you it is because of the never ending attacks on the Israeli state starting in1948 and then in 1967"

In 1947, native Arab and Jewish Palestinians legally owned 93% of Palestinian land.

In 1947, Jewish immigrants from Europe legally owned 6.5% of Palestinian land.

How convenient it is to begin the chronology of the conflict with the year 1948, after the implementation of the thorough and methodical ethnic cleansing campaign known as the Dalet Plan.

phil

JHT sneaked that one in when noone was looking? its Pappe nonsense with a large dose of finklestein and a total ignorance of the united nations vote .

phil

if any one is bothered by the accusation of this set of lies from Jht go to the link provided to see what people like jht concoct with a sick mind -it was for the defense of the country .

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Plan_Dalet.html

JHT

Pappe and Finkelstein? How could anyone believe what those self-hating Jews have to say?
The United Nations? Pfff! A corrupt and complacent political body with illusions of grandeur. Actually, those figures come from the British Administration in Palestine, notorious for its Palestinian bias throughout the Mandate.
For all matters Israeli and Palestinian, the best sources of information are Zionist leaders. For instance, here is a quote from the founder of Israel:

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

And another one:

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

And finally:

"“We must expel the Arabs and take their places.”

phil

JHT have you read the protocols of ZION too ,even hitlers will?you can find many fine quotes there too -lie on old boy there is only me here to watch

David

Phil... there is no need to divert the conversation -- that was pretty clumsy by the way -- look no further than the words of Israel's founding father, David Ben Gurion:

"Let us not ignore the truth
among ourselves... politically we
are the aggressors and they defend
themselves... The country is theirs,
because they inhabit it, whereas we
want to come here and settle down"

-- Speech given by David Ben Gurion, 1938

David

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down"
-- Speech given by David Ben Gurion, 1938