Wisdom -- or insanity?

David Alcock

Israel have bowed to world pressure. Hamas will, no doubt, re-group and kick off again. That's what they do and that's what they will be encouraged to do by Islamia. It's time that Israel grasped the PR nettle and saw it as as much of a weapon as rockets and bombs. I talk to friends who are fair minded but see no case for Israel's aggression and do not accept that the lies and deception by Hamas and the bias of the broadcast media (especially the BBC)are a factor in their understanding of events. The Israelis, if nothing else, are both brave and clever. They should give bravery a rest and use their collective brain to win the 'hearts and minds' of the West. As a corollorary an agressive, unequivocal and high profile discrediting of the misinformation would be a good start. Maybe they've got to live with some Hamas rockets and their consequences, if they are to achieve a PR breakthrough and send world opinion swinging their way.

Wagner

To a more cynical observer than Melanie, the whole operation would appear to be an effort to bring down as much punishment as possible on the Palestinians before the Bush era ended. The two-year preparation paid off, I must say, with a death toll of less than 20 on the Israeli side. A classic right-wing electoral ploy. Start a war that you know you can win.
Long-term prospects for peace and justice however, are further reduced.

gary

it's true israel is alone now. the battle has been won but the war starts now. i've never really understood why the israeli government don't get a bunch of lawyers and sue the bbc, the UN and various other institutions for inciting violence, prejudice and propaganda. the evidence is overwhelming.

Dave M

"The west is a false friend. Israel must now recognise that it fights essentially alone."

Hmmm, I still don't think Obama is going to be so negative to Israel as the left have imagined. Time will tell. I think if the chips are down the U.S. will stick with Israel and never forget how Palestinians and their neighbours were dancing in the streets after 9/11. Then there is Russia and China. Both these countries have had forebodings over Islamic expansion in Europe. Putin, in fact, was the first to warn of what might happen and today he's being proven right. Russia has remained silent over the Gaza conflict so far as I can tell, maybe due to the conflict in Chechnya. Both Russia and China agree militant Islam could be a threat to both their countries and have plans for joint military response. So, Israel isn't quite as isolated as it appears. Most western hostility is coming out of Europe and the U.K. but none of those countries have a great deal of military clout. They can't dictate to the IDF and they know it.

Lynda

Yes, the west if fickle in the least.

I hope those wonderful Italian MPs who came out for Israel and other friends like Angela Merkel will show the west how to think.

Roslyn Pine

For far too long the Jewish leadership in the UK has turned the other cheek in the face of increasingly intolerable provocation and hatred directed against the peaceful Jewish community. The softly-softly approach has not worked. It is time for Jewish individuals to stand up and be counted, and to do everything in their power to refute the lies, and to let it be understood that this hatred cannot be tolerated.
It should be noted, however, that there are many decent non-Jews who stand by Israel and the Jewish community, and who know exactly who are the loyal citizens of the UK and who are not. Their efforts deserve to be acknowledged with gratitude.

egh

Melanie - The West? What West? How about the euSSR and its undermining of everything that USED TO BE THE WEST? That was a very loose unit, which founded itself on Judaeo-Christian principles.

In the Present Day, the UK itself has collapsed under fascist euro-control - which has used the caliphate to compound its activity; and I think the US is heading that way too.

This war has been going on for decades, without anyone's declaring war or firing a rocket. We suffered a long delay in recognizing what was happening, even though some authors tried to warn us; but it's turned out to be the worst, most evil, and most destructive campaign we've ever encountered. That's why you can't count on us for support - we're no longer an independent country, or a democracy, or anything that can act or speak for itself.

You want an armed force from us? What armed force? Even the US daren't conscript its youth - they'd never get away with it. I think that's what Iraq has proved; and that US presence there could have been positive for Israel, had the US brought sufficient resources to bear.

Cry the Beloved Country indeed - and not only Israel. Many of us who are Christian may have decided just to wait for the Trumpets.

JohnW

Israel has made a mistake. It should have carried on the war until Hamas was utterly and comprehensively destroyed. They should have learned from the bitter lessons of the Americans in Iraq - the enemy must be defeated and KNOWS it is beaten. There can be no room for those false "V for victory" signs so beloved of cowardly terrorists. The lessons that Japan and Germany learned at the end of WW2 - and one Islamist terrorists must be forced to learn - is that you, the aggressor, will lose and will be humiliated in the process.

Israel has nothing to lose - certainly it can expect nothing but damnation from the West, whatever it does.

Shaun Harbord

Hamas "accept[ed] the cease-fire"? Did they? It was unilateral on both sides and so is extremely fragile. Fat lot of good Operation Cast Lead has been, unless you count killing hndreds of civilians and embittering a new generation who will grow up to hate Israel as "success." Only a depraved moral sensibility can reach that conclusion.

Ronnie

'The west is a false friend...'

Glass half-empty.

In the childish world of absolutes this would be true. Unfortunately the Riders of Rohan are not going to appear on the horizon at the crucial moment.

However, despite all the rhetoric, no-one actually tried to physically halt the Israeli offensive. Most people now accept that Hamas is not fit to run Gaza; that the missile-firing, arms smuggling and mis-use of aid resources must stop and that Israel's security needs must be met in full.

Israel has focused attention on these issues and they will be at the forefront of whatever developments occur in the peace 'process' under the auspices of the new US Administration. Whatever the Americans thought before, it has been made utterly clear, by the Israeli action, that peace can only be reached by parties who recognise each other and who agree to end all violence. There can be no accommodation with those who follow the oft-quoted Hamas charter.

Light has also been shone on the failure of Palestinian leaders to do anything positive for their people over the years, other than yelling their own equally childish absolutes. It is clear that it is they who are actually alone in this conflict and that Hamas's reliance on Iran for support is a blind alley that will leave them even more internally divided and isolated in the Arab world.

In many ways, rather than being alone Israel is, for the moment, leading the west in its response to militant Islam.

Israel has set out new terms for talks to begin under a new US presidency, now lets see if the right people can take them forward.

Robin

Not just "shrewd or isane", but very brave.

It appalls me that Israel appears to stand so alone. The midget Milleband and blustering Brown shame us all, but at least some of us can express our solidarity with and support for Israel.

logdon

And thus it came to pass that in fact Hamas has won the war. According to them anyway. Here's the crowing before the last reverberation of explosions has died. From http://www.jihadwatch.org/

January 19, 2009

Hamas declares "great victory" after Israeli cease-fire
The decisions of Israel's commanders continue to perplex, as the disastrously inconclusive end of the Second Lebanon War casts doubt on whether this truce is a tactical move in a broader plan to isolate and dislodge Hamas, or another study in half-measures under international pressure to negotiate with a party committed to Israel's destruction.

Granted, among media conditioned to root for the "underdog" at any cost (alongside deeper ideological issues), all Hamas had to do to claim "victory" is to continue to exist, and retain control of the Gaza Strip. But following the Second Lebanon War, expectations for Israel were also arguably lower, and this was to Israel's advantage: Not even Hamas was expecting Operation Cast Lead when it began last month. Time will tell what consequences the current cease-fire holds for the security of southern Israel.

"Hamas Claims 'Great Victory'," from Sky News, January 18:

In a televised speech Ismail Haniya, the Prime Minister appointed by Hamas in Gaza, said: "God has granted us a great victory, not for one faction, or party, or area, but for our entire people.
"We have stopped the aggression and the enemy has failed to achieve any of its goals."
His comments came as Israel began withdrawing troops from the Gaza strip.'

EDDIE

The power of the Media made it very difficult for Israel to finish what it had to do, namely to finally and completely stop rocket attacks on its population.
Dr Goebbels demonstrated that if a lie is repeated often enough it transmutes itself into fact. Hamas may now not be strong, but it has the support of the media especially the BBC news department. This organisation continues lovingly to dwell on the casualties lie and to give unlimited airtime to anyone willing to modify fact to fit in with their accepted doctrine. The BBC news department amply demonstrates the famous dictum about power without responsibility. When I think of the terrible horrors being perpetrated around the world even now, I can only wonder at the true motives of their sick obsessions.

N. Simon

One can guarantee that Hamas will re-arm, helped by Egypt's police, who are responsible for helping rockets go through the tunnels in Gaza.

The UN, EU, USA, etc., will throw money at Gaza and the UNRWA, only to find in the future that virtually ALL the money will be spent on buying more weapons. The billions which they've had so far, hasn't built an infrastructure, nor homes, hospitals, or industry.

Israel SHOULD, but won't cut of Gaza's electricity and other supplies forcing them to be independent. Gaza is an independent state, and shouldn't keep relying on welfare.

They will continue firing Grads and Katyushas at Israel, and eventually one of the rocket heads filled with a cocktail of lethal chemicals will hit a major Israeli target.

Israel's disastrous, inept and shambolic leftist "government" will not act until rockets start hitting Tel Aviv, and affecting the lives of Israeli anti-Israel peaceniks.

As for Israeli patriots, they ARE alone in their front line fight against Islamic terrorism.

Too many in the western world stupidly support Hamas in their fight against Israel, totally ignorant of the fact that our 7th July bombers on the London underground were trained and instructed by Hamas!

We in the west, can expect more terrorism from Al Qaeda related groups like Hamas - even though so many support them.

phil

logdon--hamas has declared a great victory -may God help the embattled Gaza people if hamas would have "lost "--what incredible bad luck they had when electing a bunch of evil maniacs .here is another view ----
The Threat of the Human Shield Strategy Hamas Uses Extends Beyond Israel, Gaza

By Abraham Cooper , Harold Brackman

US News and World Report

January 9, 2009

What if President Obama were presented by CIA Chief Panetta with this "actionable intelligence": Osama bin Laden and company are holed up in a Hitler-style bunker underneath a hospital in Afghanistan occupied by women and children deployed as shields? Would he launch an immediate strike with cruise missiles or hesitate because of the hostages? Would such a move thwart future 9/11’s and be viewed as the death knell of al Qaeda? Or would there be a firestorm of international protest from the Arab and Muslim world and beyond that the American response was a "disproportionate" violation of humanitarian international law and even a "war crime"?

Such is the real dilemma currently faced by the Israeli high command, which reportedly has intelligence that exactly locates the shaken Hamas war cabinet in Gaza in a bunker beneath a hospital, where it is shielded by women and children. How should Israel act? Destroy the terrorist high command or do nothing, to avoid being blamed for loss of innocent lives by an international community indifferent to the threats from Hamas rockets targeting Jews from Sderot to Tel Aviv's suburbs?

In the lethal "fog of war," even the most-disciplined, best-intentioned armies errantly kill civilians caught in the crossfire as well as their own soldiers who die from friendly fire. Does anybody remember the thousands of French civilians killed by the Allies during World War II's Normandy Invasion? In their current asymmetrical war with Hamas, the Israeli Defense Forces have used cellphone messages, leaflets, and other measures in the attempt to decouple civilians from military targets placed in their midst by the terrorist organization. The flow of hundreds of trucks laden with foodstuffs and medicine into Gaza from Israel has now been expanded into a daily corridor in order to allow further humanitarian supplies to reach noncombatants, even when that means some military activities are suspended for hours. For its restraint, Israel gets nothing but a global diplomatic and media chorus of boos from those willfully blind to the ultimate outrage against humanitarian international law occurring today in Gaza.

Shields protect honorable combatants in the midst of battle. Human shields are the weapon of cowards who violate every principle of humanitarian international law. As Prof. Louis Rene Beres points out, the use of human shields constitutes "perfidy" under Article 147 of the Geneva Convention IV defining the laws of war. The international criminals who use human shields are hostes humani generis: "common enemies of humankind."

The Gaza conflict is likely to be remembered as a terrible watershed, not because the IDF has unintentionally killed Palestinian civilians but because Hamas has made the use of human shields a primary military strategy. Buoyed by the unforgivable silence of leading international NGOs, Hamas deploys two complementary tactics that mock and debase the humanitarian core of international law: thousands of indiscriminate rocket attacks targeting Israeli civilians and the massive use of Palestinian civilians—including women and children—as human shields.

Why this willful blindness? For some, it is the romanticized image of Hamas, the pitiful underdog David confronting the giant Israeli Goliath. Yet, in truth, Israel is a sovereign member state of the United Nations that has no need to apologize for creating a military strong enough to defend it from multiple regional threats, including Tehran's genocidal promise to "wipe it off the map." Those who dismiss genocidal threats from Iran and Hamas as mere rhetoric should take a closer look at history. As Ron Rosenbaum recently pointed out, the most significant difference between Adolf Hitler's and Hamas's plans to annihilate the Jewish people is that the Nazis hid their full intent until World War II while Hamas has been promising to do exactly this since its founding charter 20 years ago. And while Hamas does not possess the power of an Adolf Hitler, a nuclearized Iran may be positioned to further the fuehrer's vision of a Judenrein world. It is important to remember that the Nazi leader was incapable of perpetrating the Final Solution until he was empowered by the tacit complicity of a world community that retreated from reality rather than confront the rising tide of evil that was Nazism.

In one sense, the world community is right. The future of international humanitarian law could be at stake in Gaza. But the deadly menace stems not from the IDF but from Hamas's twin campaign of terrorism against both Israeli and Palestinian innocents. The Gaza terrorist state that turns its own people into human shields also threatens to strip the entire civilized world of the protections of international law. Ultimately, Israel will safeguard its own citizens and secure its own destiny, but if the nations of the world do not speak out against Hamas's barbarities, they should be prepared to see such tactics unleashed beyond the borders of the Holy Land, cheered on by the puppet masters of terrorism in Tehran.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

patricia

A "Text Book Military Operation?"
Who wrote that then - Attila the Hun?

Otherwise a neat little valedictory statement full of menace and gritty resolve designed to warn everyone who is interested that Israel will, that it must, that is has no choice, but to bomb all its neighbours into the stone age.

Excellent.

Dixon

My hunch is they know what they are doing.

Don't forget the military perception...originating during the Cold War... that ( on the battlefield ) it is much more debilitating to your enemy to wound his soldiers than to kill them.

Edward

Hamas, lead by Khaled Mashaal, not in Gaza but safely ensconced in Damascus, celebrating "victory" is like the armless and legless Black Knight in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" declaring "victory".

tommy

Does Israel treat muslims as second class citizens ??-this video says it all.
http://tinyurl.com/87znks
Unfortunately where palestinians are concerned __ If Israel put down its weapons it would be wiped out.
If palestinians put down their weapons there would be peace
Sadly hamas supporters don't see this

Even more strange-- the thoughts from the head of the biggest mosque in the world
He gets it but sadly our homegrown hamas supporters don't get this either
http://tinyurl.com/8k2hst

A sad reflection on those rioting for hamas in the uk

Original Tony

Everyone is looking at this event through a magnifying glass.
If you step back and read a very old book that prophesies the future, you will see that in the 'last days' the whole world will turn against Israel and that Europe will become the provider of a false security for Israel.
Well, the last sentence of today's post says 'Israel must now recognize that it essentially fights alone' is proof that the Bible is correct in that prophecy and the fact that Europe will rush to solve the middle east's dilemma was proved by EUROPEAN leaders rushing to Cairo and Jerusalem to sort out a ceasefire....yes...not American officials as in the past...but European! Another truth from the Bible. All predicted thousands of years ago!
Furthermore, if the Bible is as accurate as I believe it is, the European connection with Israel's false, final peace treaty is proof that America, under Obama, will be a hands-off person as far as the middle East is concerned and his attitude to the conflict will allow the USA to wane in influence while Europe waxes.
Wait and see!
Ps. Some other guy has always posted as Tony, as well as me, so I am now changing my nom-de-plume to 'Original Tony', even if you don't think I am that original!!

wonderer

For an unconventional non-PC view on Gaza it's worth reading the Wall Street Journal article of 12 Jan 09 by Gunnar Heinsohn, “Ending the West’s Proxy War Against Israel ” at http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123171179743471961.html#articleTabs%3Dcomments .

Dan Schwartz in NJ

EGH wrote earlier,

"You want an armed force from us? What armed force? Even the US daren't conscript its youth - they'd never get away with it. I think that's what Iraq has proved; and that US presence there could have been positive for Israel, had the US brought sufficient resources to bear"

Just to clarify a misconception on the draft in the United States, our Military leadership does NOT want a draft, and will fight the misguided politicians who talk about reinstating it to sccore cheap political points.

Here's why they detest the idea of a draft: The breakdown of discipline in Viet Nam.

Turns out, that if we reinstated the draft, we would also need a an entire new layer of non-commissioned officers (which we don't have) just to maintain discipline among the draftees who don't want to be there.

Instead, we rely on the swift lethality of our expensive military hardware, with us American taxpayers gladly trading treasure for blood.

Case in point: The Hellfire missile-armed Predator and Reaper drones lazily cruising the skies over the lawless areas of Waziristan, controlled like a video game from Nellis AFB in Las Vegas. [The best part: The gyrocams are tied into facial recognition software, and it only takes 1-2 seconds from sighting a target to ID him and launch a missile off the rack... Instant death from the sky!]

Anyway, America doesn't need a draft, thank you.

D.Smith

Be more hopeful Melanie.
Israel would certainly have faced a coordinated attack on 3 maybe 4 fronts- Gaza, Lebanon, Syria and possibly the West Bank.This seems to have been Iran's intention.
Hamas was taken by surprise and looks to have been very badly mauled. It's claims of victory are so much waffle.
Israel has wisely withdrawn it's army intact and avoided being bogged down in extended street fighting.
Iran and it's allies now have lost the initiative and the IDF has demonstrated just how effective it can be.
I have no doubt this is not lost on Hezbollah and Syria who may no longer be quite so keen to assist Iran in it's desire to control the middle east.

Nathan Cook

Olmert's speech declaring a ceasefire was quite revealing. It was for a domestic audience, but if you listened to it critically, there was an obvious threat to reoccupy Gaza militarily if rocket fire continued. I believe this is the real reason for Hamas declaring a ceasefire. Certainly the fact that Hamas have declared victory indicates that they're done with fighting for now.

Ronnie

Original Tony, you could be Tony the Baptist on the basis of your extremely interesting analyses of international affairs.

Herbert Thornton

I share Melanie's, John W.'s and N.Simon's forebodings and Dave M's optimism concerning Russia and China.

As for Hamas' claim to have won a great victory - it may sound absurd to us, but the Muslim world will have swallowed it hook, line and sinker - and the way they think, it is a victory for Hamas.

The way Islam looks at these things Islam cannot be defeated. It can only suffer divine ordained, temporary setbacks.

Wagner

Phil, re your pompous waffle about human shields; the IDF is not above this tactic:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm
and
http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp

Jane NYC

Terrorists everywhere are emboldened if they are not defeated. By not retaking the Philedelphi Corridoe to prevent arms smuggling & crushing Hams, your UK Islamist thugs can swagger w/ glee & more venom.

Israeli Soldier in Gaza Talks: We Want to Finish the Job"

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129483

Very interesting first hand account from an Israeli soldier of ground fighting w/in Gaza. He talks about the unfathomable mentality of the Gaza Arabs including the Jihadi indoctrinated "innocent" civilians who choose to remain in the booby trapped houses & schools. He also describes the tunnels beneath the kitchen sinks in the civilian's homes designed to grab a soldier & kidnap him. Morale was high to fight for the finish even among the reservists who mostly have families & careers waiting at home.

Mark/Montreal

The BBC simply follow a philosophy of appeasement (as most cowards are prone to do); they're not that concerned about the Gazans themselves as much as the fact that Britain has now been overtaken by Islam. What the BBC fears the most is the likelihood of Islamic militants laying waste to their "beloved" Isle, because of what is going on in the Middle-East; if no Muslim resided in England...they wouldn't give a toss.

Ronnie

Herbert Thornton, the normal people in Gaza are just as sick and tired of living in unremitting, isolated, pig-shit squalor as any of us would be.

That is the hope for the future - that they will finally have had enough of this and that they will turn against their ridiculous 'leaders'.

Original Tony

Ronnie...do I sense sarcasm there?

Ronnie

Original Tony, a little, perhaps.

phil

wagner you have taken the name of a lunatic -I suggest you find out more of the man descended from him by the name of Gottfried Wagner who is a wonderful man .when you have done that perhaps you will desist from demeaning his name by using it to lie with .hope this is not to much pompous waffle for you sonny.

Sergey

Isolation? What isolation? I can name at least 4 nation having deep troubles with militant Islam:
Russia (140 mln), India (800 mln), China (1500 mln), USA (300 mln), all of them nuclear and having ballistic missles. If there will be true clash of civilizations, this block alone can wipe out any enemy. Even if there are now some tensions among them, Winston Chirchill also was not a big fan of Communism, but against common enemy Britain and Soviets were allies.

Adam B.

Edward, priceless! One of the funniest scenes ever!

Wagner, Gottfried

Sorry phil, I haven't lied. The links I provided are to a BBC report which quotes the Israeli defence minister Shaul Mofaz appealing to the supreme court about the ban on using human shields.
You said it yourself: "Human shields are the weapon of cowards who violate every principle of humanitarian international law."

phil

Wagner-this thread is aptly named for you -insanity of course and with it, you do not know the difference between truth and lies -I CHECKED THROUGH BTSELEM AND THE ISRAELI COURT SYSTEM -IT WAS OF COURSE LIES AS YOU WELL KNOW .

You now compound your filth by using Gottfrieds name ,a man who is innocent of all this ,what a sick soul you are-use your own name if you want to write lies like this not another man,s ,or are you one of those that hides behind women and children too.

Herbert Thornton

Ronnie,

You say that the hope for the future is that "normal" people in Gaza will finally have had enough of living in unremitting squalor etc., & that they will eventually turn against their ridiculous 'leaders'.

Sadly, there's very little in the history if Islam to justify any such hope. The Shah of Iran failed to rescue his country from Islamic fanaticism, Saddam Hussein merely controlled it by his own system of gross brutality, and had it not been for the Turkish Army, Turkey's secular constitution, established by Kemal Ataturk, would already have been overthrown too.

In Islamic countries the "normal" mindset is quite different from what we think of as normal, and to hope that it will shake off the retrograde influence of Islamic fanaticism or perceive Hamas leaders as "ridiculous" is unrealistic. Perhaps a reincarnation of Kemal Ataturk could succeed in eliminating Hamas, and thus (temporarily) modify Islam's grip on the population, but surely the likelihood of a new Kemal Ataturk being allowed to emerge is remote?

Wagner

Phil, a proper answer please man!
If anyone's still bothered to read this thread, follow these links and decide if I'm a liar, as Phil claims.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm
and
http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp

And Phil, would you mind not calling me a liar without something to back it up. If I'm proved wrong I'll apologise. Will you? I won't hold my breath.

Wagner

Herbert, interesting that you bring up Iran. Have you heard of Mohammed Mossadegh, former nationalist secular leader of Iran. He was taken out in a coup d'etat, and replaced by the Shah, whose repressive policies gave the Islamic revolutionaries their political base of disillusioned youth.
Who was behind the coup? The CIA of course. Yet another example of cold war expediency fostering the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.

phil

wagner I am not your man ok
I debated whether to answer you as you are nit picking where ever you can -the ruling was about using the enemy to stand in front whilst trying to talk to shooters not to shoot or hurt them and only the Israelis would bother to safeguard their enemy and on the same page of your BBCreport was a human shield thread about real ones -you know PALESTINIANS PUTTING GIRLS IN THE WAY TO STOP PLANES BOMBING.so please keep in context and remember it was an Israeli court who gave the ruling -a democracy working in a compassionate and legal way ,unlike the side you seem to prefer.can you comment on that ?

charles soper

Wagner is right about Beit Hanoun, but using human shields in combat was common British practice in the days of Palestine too. The Israeli Courts have properly ruled against it and the IDF has prohibited it. It is cowardly and wrong, but hiding behind a civilian from gunmen is very different from summoning noncombatants to an area about to be bombed to discredit the enemy, or setting booby traps in homes, or preventing one's own civilians from fleeing. That requires evil of a different order of magnitude.

Wagner

Phil, I agree that the case highlights positive aspects of Israeli society, such as an independent judiciary. The Btselem website also highlighted more unsavoury aspects of the policy, such as using palestinians to check for boobytraps.
And yes Hamas placed civilians in the way of Israeli bombs, but the Israelis did not have to fire those bombs. Its a total cop-out to say, 'well if the Gazans just read our leaflets and left their homes and Hamas didn't hide amongst them we wouldn't have to kill them.' Israel had the power, and held all the cards. They have done themselves irreversible damage with these actions. They have shown that they cannot be trusted to uphold human rights by themselves and should not be given a free pass from now on. They would really put themselves beyond the pale and give Obama the excuse he needs to rein in US support and funding if they voted in the frankly insane Likud, who are no better than Hamas in suits.

phil

Wagner we could write here forever ,but I am going to ask you ,who do you prefer hamas or Israel? .and neither will not be an answer .We also need to decide who wants these wars -you decide -I know ,I have family in Israel and I know they do not ,they want a Palestinian state next to them to live in peace -it is not reciprocated at least by those who hold the power-hamas!I usually find that when I ask pointed questions the "responder" dissapears-so this will be interesting .

Wagner

Still a loaded question Phil.
I would certainly prefer to live in Israel than in the occupied territories. I would prefer an Israel that did not slaughter the Palestinians en masse for the sake of electoral politics.
Who wants these wars? Of course Hamas does because it leads to Israel eating up its political capital, even in the USA. Now Israel has given them what they want, well done.
And I don't actually see anything in Israel's actions that suggest they want anything but a weak subservient palestinian state. The settlements, demolitions, and assassinations continued throughout negotiations. Who are the
palestinians going to vote for now?

Herbert Thornton

Wagner -

You ask if I have heard of Mohammed Mossadegh. Yes, I have indeed. I was in my early twenties and serving in the British Army at the time he was removed from office. Mossadegh was lampooned in the British press as a buffoon who wore pajamas all the time and who was bent on stealing Britain's enormous investment in Anglo-Iranian's Oil Refinery in Iran.

It is a mistake to impute Mossadegh's removal from office solely to the CIA and the aims of the Cold War. There was also unrest within Iran & considerable internal opposition to him from Islamic Clerics, and there was also a great deal of Communist activism.

Looking back, perhaps it would have been wiser to have reached a settlement with him over the Oil Refinery, but the operative word here is "perhaps". It would be even better if Mossadegh and the Shah had (and had been allowed) to come together with the aim of doing for Iran what Kemal Attaturk did for Turkey.

On the other hand, with the Ayatollah Khomeini and other similarly minded Clerics to contend with, not to mention the imbecility of soft-minded westerners like Jimmy Carter and political correctness in general, which would have denounced the creation of a secular state in Iran with the same hysteria as they now denounce any effective military action against Islamic terrorism, the Clerics might still have won, and Iran's future would then have turned as badly as what we see now.

Wagner

Herbert, I'll bow to your knowledge of Iranian history. I would still posit that military action against what is essentially an idea can never bring definitive results. If Iran was handled without the 'axis of evil' bluster, we might see the first post-islamic state of modern times. Defiance against the US and Israeli bogeymen is what gives the Clerics their political legitimacy.

Michael Gorinsky

It is refreshing to see a very fair minded Columnist in The British Press who supports the State OF Israel. It is about time!!Ms. Phillips I Congratulate You!!!Keep Up Your Good Work!!!It is very unfortunate that the British Press and The BBC in its entirety for far too long has given the People of Israel and its Friends in The World the short end of the stick.The flagrent Anti Semitism permiated in Britains Press is very disheartening.What hs Israel or the Jewish People ever done to BRITAIN TO DESERVE SUCH TREATMENT?Does it come from the Anglian Church? Does it come from the silence of the Royalty in Britain to the trials and tribulations of The Jewish People?Does it come from the massive amount of Muslims allowed into Britain and allowed freedom of Speech?( Would they ever allow ,ANY FREEDOMS IF THEY EVER TOOK OVER?)DOES IT COME FROM KEN LIVINGSTON,the formr Mayor of London( I BELEIVE THAT IS HIS NAME, PLEASE FORGIVE THE TYPOS?)Where in History has the British Nation (for the exception of Sir Winston Churhill)taken the Jewish People of Europe during the Holoaust and after to their bussom?Certainly not those who caused White Papers against Jewish immigration to then the Palestinian Mandate., nor to those who turned away Jewish refugees fleeing Hitlers Hell!!These same Anti Semites allowed unfetted Arab migration to Palestine in the 30's and 40's.It is very unfortunate that Britain that Produced Sir. Winston Churchill also produced the failings of a Chamberlain,Atlee, Bevin, and now a Brown!I could ask many other questions including the incarceration of Jews trying too come Home to Eretz Israel and escaping the Nazi Beasts by Britain on British Barbed Wire Camps on Cyprus..In the meanwhile the Palestinian Jews fought side by side with their British compatriots against the Nazis. A fair hand was not delt to Israel.Maybe now that We can see the end of the tunnel for oil, and its stangulation of Bratain and the World,Britain will wake up and as the Fench say Libertie, Egalite,Fraternite--Por Israel aussi- Liberty , Equality , Fraternitry for Israel too.

phil

Wagner
January 25th, 2009 3:16pm well you answered at least, but you are on the ropes and I am compassionate .Your words have exposed you for where you really are at -you hate Israel come what may ,no matter what you are told ,no matter what you see-I write to people like you wagner until they expose their "well meaning" is in fact nothing of the sort .Huw T has also shown that you talk nonsense until exposed ,so what is the point of our time with you :?May I suggest that next time you write ,you have a proper platform from which to send your strikes .
Huw T an excellent and scholarly piece .

Herbert Thornton

Wagner,

You say that "military action against what is essentially an idea can never bring definitive results."

I would not be so sure about it. Violence is a very effective tool for stifling ideas. For example, in most Islamic countries, Christianity - which is the idea on which European civilisation was founded - is routinely stifled by means of violence - including the death penalty for any Muslim who converts to Christianity.

Naziism too was an idea and in its case, not only did military action bring results, but military action was the only way to do so. Granted it did not completely extinguish the ideas of Naziism, because there are still a few people around with similar ideas, even in Britain, but they are few and far between. Despite the efforts of mainstream politicians and the media to tar anyone they disagree with as "Nazi", no party in Britain can justifiably be described as "Nazi" except perhaps, to some extent, the National Front. Naziism is essentially dead, and it was military action that did the job.

Violence - whether it takes the form of military action, or guerilla warfare, or terrorism - is moreover a very effective tool, not just for extinguishing an idea, but for spreading and imposing ideas. Belief in its use has been common to Naziism, Marxism and even at some stages in history, to Christianity, but it is an idea embedded especially deeply in Islam because the Koran requires that it be used against unbelievers.

You say -

"If Iran was handled without the 'axis of evil' bluster, we might see the first post-islamic state of modern times. Defiance against the US and Israeli bogeymen is what gives the Clerics their political legitimacy."

That, I fear, looks only at the surface of the situation. Our use of the expression "axis of evil", and Iran's view of the U.S. and Israel as bogeymen, have nothing to do with the Clerics' political legitimacy. In Islam, the only form of political legitimacy is the Islamic one - legitimacy flows only from Islam; it is personified in Islamic Clerics. Mao Tse Tung said, "Power flows from the barrel of a gun". In Islamic society, power flows from three sources - from the commands of the Koran, from Islamic Clerics - and, wherever there is opposition to Islam, from the barrels of guns held by Muslims. Islam's most fundamental belief is - "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."

Power also flows from the possession of nuclear weapons, which Iran is hell-bent on acquiring. But what is most frightening of all is a religiously inspired idea that it is the will of a deity that they must be used.

phil

Herbert Thornton at least I read it ;) sorry for the type error in my last I know it was you and not huw -senior moment