Gaza returns to rule by thug

Vision Aforethought

If I may offer a note of long term optimism, history has shown that any concept or entity 'constructed' on a false premise will eventually collapse.

Read into this how you like. ;)

Brian O'Connor

With respect to the forces of Hamas shedding uniforms and cowarding into the background, slaughtering Palestinians and looting relief trucks . . . and forgive me if I get this wrong . . . but, ah, didn't the good people of the Gaza strip elect Hamas to power?

And if so, what can I say, other than, well, isn't Democracy wonderful? As in accountability, in whatever form it takes . . .

Raymond in DC

How ironic that Hamas is inflicting more dead and injured on fellow Palestinians than on the IDF. This happened on a smaller scale even during the conflict, but now as the savages emerge from their bunkers their vengeance can reach its full potential. It's ironic too that in their honor-shame culture, they refuse to accept responsibility for their failures. It's always someone else at fault - the US, the West, the Jews, the Crusaders, etc.

Roger R

Even now as the international brigade of reporters move into Gaza they take the simplistic approach and level the blame at Israel. There is death and descruction but no question as to who fired these bullets and detonated these bombs. Hamas, an organization which happily sends it's women and children to death wired with explosives, would not be adverse to leaving it's own created "examples of Israeli agression", dutifully lapped up, by these shallow reporters. Yes, there are those who have been caught between Israel and Hamas and my heart truly bleeds for them, Arab and Israeli, but not as an easy come easy go type of sentiment worn on the sleeve of a populist reporter.

Not one of these reporters have had or will have an expert in ordance who could have looked at the exploding missiles and mortar shells and been told that the resulting explosin was far in excess to the ordance being used. Now that these reporters are in Gaza will they take proper investigative advice on how some of this was caused? No, it will be far easier to use the Palestinian civilians as pawns in a propaganda war, as they have been since the creation of Israel by their surrounding Arab neighbours, who kept them in their refugee camps without a welcome into those brother Arab countries.

As you have written Melanie, Hamas will now mete out it's anger and frustration on the easiest of targets, it's own people, before resuming attacks on Israeli civilians.

Lizzy

Media bias is one thing - at least there the news is being reported. Media (and moral) blindness is something else again. I am not cynical enough. I am still astounded that journalists don't go after such news like bloodhounds. Where is their spirit of inquiry?

Your columns are always insightful and informative, Melanie. I rely on you for balance.

Carl

If what you say is true, and judging by your past blogs this is very much up for debate, then isn't it ironic that Hamas is doing what Israel originally funded and supported it for?

By the way, for such a surgical operation, the IDF seems to have done rather a lot of damage in Gaza. One would almost think that they were simply out to cause as much destruction as possible.

Daibhidh MacAdhaimh

The taxi driver describes the deliberate lobbing of missiles randomly at civilians as 'resistance?' His statement is as good an insight into the warped psychology of Hamas and its supporters as you'll get. Equally warped is sections of our deluded media that accords Hamas this same label. In doing so it discracefully makes a moral equivalence with the French Resistance of the Second World War. Journalists and editors make no distinction between the former that deliberately targets men, women, boys and girls, with the latter that bravely targeted uniformed and armed Nazis.
Hmm, the Reuters report is typical of the hi falutin waffle used by a media outlet devoid of conviction and is unable to distinguish good from bad, right from wrong. Our politicians are also fluent in this same waffling, turning logic on its head lingo.
Meanwhile, on the UK streets,the psychology in tandem with that of the Gaza taxi-driver is at work. Deranged sections of the pro-Hamas, 'anti-war' crowd continued to vent their political illiteracy on panes of Starbuck coffee shop windows over the weekend. Like the unarmed civilians under attack in southern Israel, these panes of glass don't hit back. Sort of sums up the boldness of these mindless vandals, doesn't it?

EDDIE

The most important media outlet in this country is, I think, the BBC, This morning it was all about the damage in Gaza and the casualties. The BBC manipulates the facts by giving almost unlimited time to Arab spokesmen mouthing their particular twists on t he facts. Israeli has virtually no voice and the years of rocket attacks are hardly ever mentioned. The BBC always, and in spite of protests, gives casualty figures that include Hamas terrorists. They never mention the leaflets and telephone calls to Gazans warning them of an attack.
T he actual casualty figures are remarkably low for this awful type of warfare. The BBC to my knowledge has never mentioned that Hams has been terrorising Southern Israel for years and that even President ~Mubarak of Egypt puts the blame for this war fairly and squarely on Hamas. The BBC has dropped all pretence at impartiality as they sense that the public, including many M.P.’S, are now so adjusted to their skewered take on events that there would be no protest at whatever they say or show. It reminds me of the old days in Germany.

Anwar k Taal

I believe you Melanie, the British blame everything to Israels, Muslims are killing each other, and it is our fault because we voted for the ignorant Islamic militia "Hamas" and see what happen now? we are better of being assaulted by Jewish then Hamas or any Islamic terrorist

Original Tony

The picture covering this post shows a well stocked market somewhere in Gaza.
So much for people having starved to death at Israeli hands during operation Cast Lead! Even when I watched the rabidly biased Al Jazeera I did not see one skinny Gazan. Proof of some of the lies coming out from Hamas but not picked up Al-BBC.
On a technical note, why hasn't Israel installed anti-missile defence systems along the border with Gaza, nearest Israeli towns like sderot?
Most western navy ships have a radar-guided gatling machine gun that are very very effective in shooting down incoming missiles far more sophisticated than Hamas's lollipops. Why doesn't Israel construct banks of them? The system is called Goalkeeper and would be a darn sight cheaper than invading Gaza.

Scott

The real issue that is created by the problems we see today is that all this backlash against a country determined to protect its own citizens means that our own will to protect our own citizens is diminished.

Can you imagine Britain being able to retake the Falklands if Argentina invaded today?

Norm

It would be a brave reporter who broadcast the truth from Gaza. They simply tow the Hamas line, if they want to retain their head that is. I can't think of any other conflict where journalists are allowed to report from the otherside of the fence with such 'freedom'.

Ahab

'Interviewed here on the BBC during the fighting, Col Richard Kemp, former commander of British forces in Afghanistan and military adviser to the British government' - so he said this on the BBC, that biased anti-Israeli institution? And he advises the British Government on military matters? So what is your problem?

Barry Larking

Israel would be in a somewhat worse position in public relations terms in the UK but for the intervention of the Islamists and fellow travellers on the streets of London and other cities; I know no one who was not alienated by these people.

The BBC and Channel Four have both made good programmes uncovering Islamic extremism in the UK. Unfortunately, this is forgotten and a very simple minded (worthy) feeling for the 'under dog' comes out at times like these. What is lacking is an analysis, drawing upon facts, of how 'times like these' come about.

Hamas has only one negotiating position with regards Israel: It wishes to destroy it. By picking a fight it has brought terrible destruction and misery to its people. It cannot be said often enough that this should not have happened and the reason it did was the – bonkers – idea that Hamas can take on and defeat Israel.

Why not work together? Why not build peace? The USA and EU will turn up with financial support; the region has great benefits to bestow on all. Because that is not on Iran's agenda. In safely distant Tehran the Islamofascists can take all the suffering Palestinians in Gaza can endure. Why do significant numbers of Palestinians collude with them?

Ronnie

Original Tony, that's a good point about the Goalkeeper system. It would do the job.

I can't remember, it's manufactured by God, isn't it?

Ronnie

Scott, we couldn't afford to send a task force to the Falklands now.

Shaun Harbord

You may not like Hamas, I am not a fan, but they were elected.

phil

Shaun Harbord
January 20th, 2009 10:43am

"You may not like Hamas, I am not a fan, but they were elected"-- SO WHAT !!!!.------------AND I see even the flavoursome carl is becoming doubtful about his heroes -I am sure nobody is surprised at the new revelations ,it is exactly what I said would happen when I referred to the claims (false)in jenin .Wait until we find out that they blew up their own citizens .These hamas people are liars and cheats and that is the best I can say of them . They are also the greatest curse on the Palestinians ,who I hope will recover from this and become a great nation living peace with their neighbours .

JJS

Shaun, you say Hamas was elected. I say so was Mugabe!!

peter

Norm - you re funny.

I seem to remember it was the IDF who restricted access to journalists.

Lots of criticism about it actually.

You must have missed it.

Nick Shelley

Scott- you mean "dhimminished"

Nick Kaplan

Shaun Harbord; The Nazis were elected too. They also had genocidal aims of jew extermination. They also proceeded to murder all opposition once in power. These three similarities mean that Hamas are about as legitimate as Hitler; I fail to see your point...

Jacqueline

Any doubts as to the British anti Israel stance wil be quickly dispelled when watching BBC Parliament. The vast majority of MP's blame Israel for every war crime possible,illegal use of white phoshorus, disproportionality, killing of women and children, destruction of infra-structure, use of arms of Britain etc. etc. the most odious coming from the mouth of Jewish traitor Jeremy Kaufman.

Ronnie

Shaun Harbord, what were they elected to do? Starve their people, misappropriate aid funding, shell their neighbours in the certain knowledge that massive levels of death and destruction would follow, 'govern' on the basis of a violent and paranoid fantasy. The legitimacy of their election pales in relation to what happened after it.

George W Bush was elected. New Labour kept getting elected. Robert Mugabe got elected...

Danny Lemieux

"You may not like Hamas, I am not a fan, but they were elected."
So were the Nazis, for that matter. They, too, drove their people to destruction and had to be destroyed.

Carl

It speaks volumes that the supporters of Israel are willing to overlook the fact that this slaugher was carried out in order to help ensure that their current loathsome and corrupt politicians get re-elected.

wrighty

"A Fatah official in Ramallah told the Post"

=

"Sources close to Mr Quisling have informed 'Der Sturmer'"

Michael

Jacqueline: 'the most odious coming from the mouth of Jewish traitor Jeremy Kaufman' I doubt you'd like Gerald Kaufman very much either.

George Laird

Dear Ms Phillips

When you talk about Hamas fighters fleeing from a proper army, you fail to mention or give proper credit that Hamas is not a proper army itself.

How many F16, Apache helicoperts and tanks does Hamas have?

Your article's tone could lead some to believe that you think war is a game.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Jacqueline, thanks for referring to that despicable Jewish traitor Gerald (not Jeremy) Kaufman. Unfortunately he is not the only one over here in the UK. We have our traitors, just like the English and other nations. Who was it that once said: "Jews are just like other people, only more so" !

Johan

Carl is just so funny. Like a little fox he sits and watches for a moment where he can jump in and leave a smelly little deposit - same old same old, of course - and then jumps out to wait for the next lull to plop in another irrelvancy! He's not here to read, think, look for enlightenment, but thinks he has some enlightenment to offer. As if we still need any 14th century anti-Jewish propoganda.

phil

George Laird --I hope you are also campaigning for the Israeli people who have been under siege for the last 60 years -is it too much to hope for .I hope that after you have completed your education much at our expense, you will have learned how to be balanced in your judgement and not to have been indoctrinated with soundbites .Take an extra subject to read such as the middle east and the Arab /Israeli conflict .there is much for you to find out

phil

Johan the noxious carl has never once made a comment which is other than abuse -I find him amusing so lets not stop him -most of the threads are serious and he obviously has nothing better to do -just hope we are not paying for his upkeep -are we carl?

Carl

So Johan, why did the current Israeli government wait until now to act, after all these years? You strike me as just another apologist hiding from the truth.

Dixon

Vision Aforethought
January 20th, 2009 1:31am
If I may offer a note of long term optimism, history has shown that any concept or entity 'constructed' on a false premise will eventually collapse.
Read into this how you like. ;)"

We know what YOU are trying to suggest...most people who read these threads aren't so thick!

Carl

I'm just glad that my posts are hitting home, giving those that condone the recent atrocities by the IDF pause for thought.

Dixon

Ronnie
January 20th, 2009 10:27am
"Original Tony, that's a good point about the Goalkeeper system. It would do the job.
I can't remember, it's manufactured by God, isn't it?"

Well, your sarcasm exposes your ignorance yet again Ronnie. Whilst Goalkeeper is only designed to shoot down CRUISE missiles ( sorry Tony ) the Israeli companies Elbeit and Rafael Indistries are are finalising a system called "Iron Dome" that will shoot down anything bigger than a large calibre mortar shell ( 155mm ) INCLUDING Hamas missiles, Qassam and Grad.

Ronnie, you might like to sneer, but thats only an indication of your technical ignorance. It may seem "God" -like in your limited horizons, but Iron Dome has so far proven very effective in tests.

It remains to be seen how the Left and the media will try to spin this to seem like an offensive system, as they have spun the wall into an oppressive presence? How do you try to make out that a system to shoot down incoming missiles is hurting innocent babies?

I'm sure people like Ronnie will find a way.

Incidentally, the American Missile Defense system is already operational and very effective in tests. Its technology was largely developed in Israel.

Dixon

Carl
January 20th, 2009 12:28pm
It speaks volumes that the supporters of Israel are willing to overlook the fact that this slaugher was carried out in order to help ensure that their current loathsome and corrupt politicians get re-elected."

It speaks volumes for your ignorance , Carl, that you wrote the above, given that the current Israeli prime minister is not standing for re-election! Doh!

logdon

Carl
January 20th, 2009 1:43pm
I'm just glad that my posts are hitting home, giving those that condone the recent atrocities by the IDF pause for thought."

In your hubristic wet dreams, Carl. About as right as Hamas's claims to victory.

Frank P

Carl, take a look at your last comment, 'pause for thought' then ask yourself, "Am I suffering from serious self-delusional syndrome?" If the answer is not affirmative, then you need to see someone urgently.

Dixon

George Laird
January 20th, 2009 12:48pm
Dear Ms Phillips
When you talk about Hamas fighters fleeing from a proper army, you fail to mention or give proper credit that Hamas is not a proper army itself.
How many F16, Apache helicoperts and tanks does Hamas have?
Your article's tone could lead some to believe that you think war is a game.
Yours sincerely
George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University"

Gosh, what an important title, we must all grovel at his coming!!!!

But seriously, George, does a legitimate "resistence" pen up its people like cattle, lace their houses with explosives, launch missiles from their apartments and send flocks of children to fill the street in front of advancing tanks.

I don't recall the French resistence, the Norwegian, Greek or any other resistence usaing sych "tactics". Indeed, not even the Viet Cong.

The only party whose actions it does resemble is the NAZIs. Hitler was happy for all of Germany to perish to slow down the Allies, ultimately declaring that the German people desrved this because they had failed him!

And by the way, Israel does not possess any Apache helicopters. They use Bell Textron Cobra's instead.

Perhaps irrelevent this time, but with such ignorance, how can you ever be sure that you are not uttering howlers every time you pipe up?

Tim Howard

George Laird
"Your article's tone could lead some to believe that you think war is a game."
That is a fairly typical left wing argumentation. Don't argue the opinions that the writer clearly state but rather imply that they have other very sinister opinions and attack them for that.

Dixon

On Channel 4 last night we had a reporter called Jonathan Miller, who'se use of that name defames the REAL Jonathan Miller, saying the top of a minaret had been blown off in "Wanton destruction".

How the hell would he know? Was he there at the time? Does he know that there wasn't someone up there firing down at the time?

Such "reporting" is little short of making things up out of thin air!

I guess it doesn't matter, as long as there are troupes of people like Ronnie and Carl to lap it up he can keep his cosy salary coming in.

Carl

Dixon, I am aware of that, due to a little matter of corruption I believe. However Barak and Livni are so as you might say Doh!

Carl

Dixon, so any report criticising Israeli actions is "made up" and any report criticising Hamas is the veritable truth? It would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

Nick Kaplan

Phil; I doubt very much that Mr. Laird cares about the daily bombardment of Israel in the slightest. The problem with these fools from groups who claim to speak for ‘human rights’ is that they don’t even have a proper conception of what a right is. They just say X (a person they support) has a right to Y (a thing they personally believe they should have) for no reason other than that it is linguistically convenient to make demands in the language of rights, for it spares you from actually having to justify your demands. Given that the sort of people that make demands for positive rights (i.e. non-rights) are also the sort of people who despise Israel due to their overwhelming ignorance of how it was established and why it acts as it does, I don’t suppose that they would replace the ‘X’ in my above formulation with the word ‘Israelis,’ simply because it doesn’t serve their purposes (by which I mean instinctive biases) to do so.

Carl; the reason the Israelis acted when they did was because the day prior to the Israeli response in Gaza, Hamas declared an end to the 6 month cease fire (in which Hamas never actually ceased firing) and then marked the occasion by firing 80 rockets into Israel in one day. If you ask me Israel showed remarkable restraint in waiting this long to respond. Oh, and the only thing your comments are giving us pause for is a giggle at your unbelievable ignorance.

Original Tony

Dixon @ 1.49pm...I appreciate you pointing out to Ronnie that his sarcasm is unwarranted when he made his 'made by God' comments about the goalkeeper system. Thank you Ronnie. It seems you and I are of similar minds while Carl and Ronnie are a pair of liberal sops.
I have read though, Ronnie, that the goalkeeper system used by the dutch navy can intercept mach-2 missiles with sabot-charged heads. These missiles are a lot skinnier that a cruise missile, so I remain confused why the current goalkeeper system has not been installed? Perhaps the new technology you mention is leaps and bounds ahead and more cost-effective to only install the system once??

Mark

"Hamas is not a proper army itself.

How many F16, Apache helicopters and tanks does Hamas have?"

So how does it justify starting (or even risking) a war with an army that does? I was going to say a "suicidal" war but like most at the top of in the Islamist death cult the love of death is always to be embraced by others - never themselves.

Carl, take it form me - your posts are certainly not "hitting home" except perhaps in the sense that readers here are simply agog at how any one can seriously act as an advocate for Hamas.

By the way someone of your sort of view was asking the question (in the Guardian of course) why Hezbollah didn't join in. One reason they gave was that they hoped to do well in tee Lebanese elections and didn't want to attarct opprobrium by attracting Israeli bombers to Lebanon. So much for the argument that bombing strengthens terrorist groups.

In fact I can't see any gain whatsoever for the Palestinians out of this. Hamas cheerleaders like you should go and hang your heads in shame.

Janet

George Laird, How ridiculous can
a so called Human Rights person
be...what about the people of
Israels Human Right to exist by
defending itself when attacked
by the most barbaric venom on
the face of the earth...do not
for one second underestimate
the kind of weapons and ammunition hidden in, around
and under the population of Gaza
their sickening abuse of men
women and children, The whole of Gaza could be compared to
a walk-in wardrobe but with
deadly weapons inside..

Every decent, free person knows
that war is certainly not a game...and the only thing Israel wants is peace and quiet..Hammas should have known
better than to start with Israel....how would you react
if Hammas started rocketing
Glasgow..do you campaign for
the jewish population when their men, women and children
are murdered by lunatic suicide
bombers.?..I suppose not..but
you can be 100% sure that they
are all over the world..just
itching to make trouble in their fanatic cause for Islam.
with or without, F16,helicopters
or tanks as you mention...
Wake up Mr. Laird, your sympathy
is certainly not in the right
direction....

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Dear George Galloway I mean George Laird, you are one of those human rights people "who think good is bad and bad is good"

Carl

Oh right Nick, so the IDF just decided that very day to commence operations? You delude yourself, but I suppose the horrific toll of civilians killed by the IDF is too terrible to really think about. They wouldn't even let parents recover the bodies of their slaughtered children

Ronnie

Obviously, Dixon, you've been too busy setting 'word-traps' to read what I've written on these threads about this conflict. How could you be so stupid as to think that I would lap up the propaganda issued by either side in this or any war?

Edward of the USA

Carl, if as you say Israel "created hamas", then it's Israels obligation to "smash hamas".

BTW Carl, I suggest you read the Hamas Charter of 1988 which details the Hamas protocols of also hating Freemasons, Rotary Club, Lions Club.

I seem to remember that the nazis of WW2 also hated Freemasons.

The common goals of nazis and hamas are eerily similar.

Dee Ranged

The Hamas regime was not elected as such. Yes, it won an election but then seized total power by a bloody coup against the PA. Now, it imposes a radical Islamist regime on its unfortunate subjects. Hamas has no policy for creating jobs or raising living standards. Its educational system doesn't teach useful skills or civic virtues but indoctrinates children with the ambition to become suicide bombers.

Ronnie

Oh dear, Dixon, you seem to have fallen into a trap.

I was actually agreeing with Original Tony about the Goalkeeper system and I also wonder why the Israelis have not deployed it.

My sarcasm was directed at Tony's earlier reference to God protecting the land of Israel because I think it has more to do with necessary military resources. Not a conversation you were part of at that point.

I won't join you in a comparative anaylsis of anti-missile defence systems as my latest copy of Jane's Fighting Ships (and other things that make loud bangs) hasn't arrived yet.

Had you been paying attention all this time, Dixon, you would know that I have supported Israel's action in this war for the simple and inescapable reason than a sustainable peace can only be achieved if Hamas and their ilk are destroyed. If they refuse to accept the existence of Israel then they must be cleared out of the way, or this whole murderous cycle will continue for ever.

Now, is that clear enough for you?

Francis

George Laird: How many F16, Apache helicopters and tanks would you like Hamas to have?

Dixon

Ronnie, I SAW your earlier spat with Tony over the Book of Revelations. Indeed, surely if you are paying such close attention yourself, you would have noticed my response to this, referring to the cod theology of "The Omen". But your sarcasm had a much nearer target in his Goalkeeper post. Thats the problem with sarcasm. Its the scatter gun of rhetoric.

However, if I've misrepresented your views by the 180 degrees that you now assure me, then I sincerely apologise. Its one thing to disagree with someone, quite another to misconstrue them as disagreeable!

BTW, I don't bother with that Janes lot now...too focused on profits to let us read their web-site without subscribing. I have always got my latest updates courtesy of the print version of Flight International.

Dixon

Carl
January 20th, 2009 2:35pm
Dixon, so any report criticising Israeli actions is "made up" and any report criticising Hamas is the veritable truth? It would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic."

No you half-wit, any report stating as fact something about which the facts are not known!

Are you really so thick that you cannot understand anything so simple as what I wrote? Or are you just going "...me, me, the flowers see, me, me..." with your fingers in your ears every time anyone says anything you dont want to hear?

Dixon

Carl
January 20th, 2009 2:33pm
Dixon, I am aware of that, due to a little matter of corruption I believe. However Barak and Livni are so as you might say Doh!"

But THEY did not launch the incursion! DOH!

Dixon

Original Tony. I don't want anyone to think Im pretending to be an expert on this, but as I understand it, the Goalkeeper, which is a development of the Phalanx, using a rotary gun is for hitting "sea skimmers" like Exocet or the Nowegian Penguin. These are, as you say, skinny, but a lot bigger than a mortar shell. They may rise up in a terminal arc or over obstacles ( like Penguin ) but they are essentially in powered flight as opposed to a ballistic trajectory. Rather than supersonic, a ballistic missile, even a little one like a qassam, may knock on hypersonic, upwards.Then you have the relative line-of-fire and rang issues of a gun like Goalkeeper, which operates in a flat trajectory itself. Whereas the Israeli Iron Dome uses an as yet very secret interceptor device which can presumeably pop over intervening terrain to hit the incoming projectile even if the launchger is not in the line of sight.

Well, thats how I understand it, anyway.

Alfan Iharr

George Laird is one of those ignorant British liberals, who think terrorists are innocent people and they deserve a respect, we wonder why Britain is taking over by Islamic Jihadists?

AngloWelshDragon

George Laird - so young, so pompous, so ill-infomred! Ahhhhh!

Shy Guy

Dixon, just to correct you, the IDF has had AH64 Apaches for years, including the latest Longbow version.

Carl

Dixon, your descent to personal insults demonstrates that you have no argument to offer. Just so I make my feelings and sentiments clear to you, I will spell them out: I believe that the way Israel treats the Palestinians is a disgrace to humanity. I believe that the recent atrocities by the IDF are an affront to humanity. I believe that your understanding of Israel is poor, coloured by a blind hatred of Arabs. Get it?

Ronnie

Dixon, yeah I saw the Omen reference. Some days I can't argue with everyone.

You are right, sarcasm doesn't always work but it adds bite sometimes and much-needed humour when threads run out of steam.

I'm afraid you have misconstrued my views on this issue but its not a crime. I just wanted to be clear.

I used to get Flight International :-).

stanley Jerusalem

As intelligent posters I fail to comprehend why anyone should rise to the patent rubbish that Carl and his ilk spew on this blog. Why are you wasting your time? Incapable of clarity and honesty he is beneath contempt and deserves nothing.
To attempt to reform or educate him is both pathetic and almost laughable. Such blatantly seditious twaddle has no place on a forum such as this and to glorify it with reasoned argument is to have lost the plot.

Phil

Course, everybody believes the JP. Hamas cowards? Maybe, but not the IDF who didn't properly engage them in the built-up areas, resorting instead to artillery and air bombardment [who cares about civilians] before scuttling back over the border just in time for Obama's inauguration (wouldn't want to spoil the party or put charity donations from the US in jeopardy).

Nick Kaplan

Carl said: “Oh right Nick, so the IDF just decided that very day to commence operations?”

Yes, this is exactly what I am saying. Thomas Jefferson once said that “the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.” When you are the one free state surround by many homicidal maniacs you better make damn sure you are prepared for any eventuality. Consequently The IDF is always well trained and ready for war, given that its enemy is always present and capable of attack at any moment.

I think it is less farfetched to suggest the IDF was always ready to retaliate then it is to suggest that the attack was order such that someone could win an election they aren’t even standing in.

An American

Melanie,
When will you write about what you believe an Obama presidencey will mean for the US, UK and worldwide?

Conservative Americans are distraught and very worried about our future.

Michael B

Gaza returns to rule by thug, tunnels in the Philedelphi corridor are beginning to be repaired and placed back in operation, the UNRWA reconstitutes its often malignant role and Gilad Shalit continues to be held captive by Hamas.

Adam B.

Just to let other posters know, Carl has repeatedly refused to condemn the Hamas charter, which calls for the extermination of every living Jew. So now you know who you're dealing with.

Adam B.

Carl, if, as you claim, Israel had wanted to do as much damage as possible in Gaza, there wouldn't be one single building left standing. You haven't really thought that through, have you?

This is one of those Jenin moments, where the UN and assorted lefty NGO's claimed that Jenin had been reduced to rubble. An aerial photo showed that 95% of Jenin was utterly unscathed, and the damage had occurred where there had been heavy fighting, centred in a couple of blocks. If Hamas had Israel's capability, they wouldn't hesitate for a moment to kill every Jew they could lay their hands on - no worries about civilian casualties there. In fact, they don't even care about their own civilians, using them as human shields for propaganda value.

phil

I am sure everyone knows this phil is not the lowlife who took my name at 6.41

phil

We can only be sure of death and taxes, but carl has showed us otherwise ,the idiot will be back to joust with intelligence and compassion(not his) with his unflappable ignorance .Also george the laird of glasgow will not raise his head above the parapet -well maybe after he has read his precscribed books -hurry george we await your further pearls of wisdom .

Dixon

Carl
January 20th, 2009 5:09pm
Dixon, your descent to personal insults demonstrates that you have no argument to offer. Just so I make my feelings and sentiments clear to you, I will spell them out: I believe that the way Israel treats the Palestinians is a disgrace to humanity. I believe that the recent atrocities by the IDF are an affront to humanity. I believe that your understanding of Israel is poor, coloured by a blind hatred of Arabs. Get it?"

I'm the last person to insult someone for rhetorical purposes...you need George Galloway for that, but your obtuseness is an absolute provocation that needed to be pointed out, as now it has been, repeatedly. You are an idiot.

And where are your arguments. So far, we havent seen any. Just displays of utter hubris. Such as that very comment I have just quoted above.

Well, to be fair, "idiot" isnt exactly correct. But a more exact term probably wouldn't be allowed past the moderator!

Louise

Why doesn't the BBC publicise any of this?
It really does seem as if the BBC is hell-bent on pushing an anti-Israel agenda, casting Israel as the world's pariah.
Example: a little while ago Huw Edwards, from Washington, asked the BBC's Teheran correspondent, Jon Lyne, how he thought Obama's inauguration speech would go down with Iran's leaders.
Lyne began with the observation that in Persian Obama means "He with us", so that there is optimism regarding him. Then, without missing a beat, Lyne continued (even though Edwards had not mentioned Israel or given him any cue relating to that topic) that Bush gave Israel unlimited support and the expectation in Teheran is that that will end.
This was a gratuitous swipe at Israel. Lyne said nothing whatever about Iran's existential threat to Israel, and in any case Lyne's raising of Israel as THE focus of his answer was astonishing and disturbing.

Do the Board of Deputies, the Zionist Federation and the Israeli Embassy actually monitor and protest this inexorable demonisation of Israel, now tinged with triumphalism from Al Beeb that news times are a-coming and those oppressive militant Israelis will have their come-uppance?
I ask because I cannot believe that Al Beeb would get away with this if it was challenged by the communal leadership. I believe that before Trevor Asserson presented his several long and detailed reports on BBC bias (including its Arabic service bias) towards Israel he
circulated a paper on the subject between those three bodies that created an enormous buzz - only to find that his paper was dropped like hotcakes.
What on earth is going on?

Dixon

Phil
January 20th, 2009 6:41pm
Course, everybody believes the JP. Hamas cowards? Maybe, but not the IDF who didn't properly engage them in the built-up areas, resorting instead to artillery and air bombardment [who cares about civilians] before scuttling back over the border just in time for Obama's inauguration (wouldn't want to spoil the party or put charity donations from the US in jeopardy)."

I take it this is the imposter Phil. I've noticed repeatedly here that peoples screen-names are being hijacked. Its even happenned to me. WHY? Surely the whole point of asking us for our e-mail address on posting is so that we dont get two different people using the same name! Cannot this be enforced?

As far as this version of Phil goes, its a very silly "analysis"...or is he somehow privvy to mysteriously sourced knowledge of exactly what the IDF in the front did on the ground.

Kerry

Well, George Laird, if you are involved with the Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University why don't you make a comment about Melanie's real point -human rights abuses carried out by Hahas. Why take up a peripheral issue like what constitutes a proper army.
This is exactly the problem good people face, people like you who are in a position to help expose genuine cases of human rights abuses and all you can say is Hamas ran off because they are not a proper army. You should get a job with the UN.

Phil

'Phil', 'Dixon': I'm an imposter, you're an imposter, we're all imposters. Is your blog name protected by copyright? Get a life and stop making silly 'analyses' re your own purported importance.

Dixon

Phil ( the imposter version )
January 20th, 2009 9:18pm
'Phil', 'Dixon': I'm an imposter, you're an imposter, we're all imposters. Is your blog name protected by copyright? Get a life and stop making silly 'analyses' re your own purported importance."

What it means is that you are such a coward that you cannot even use your own pseudonym!

The whole point of one poster one name is that it's possible to have an argument over the issues. If you start playting silly games at trying to traduce others by pretending to be them, it'll descend into a meaningless chaos: twenty Phils and fifteen Carls all pretending to be Patricia.

If you don't have the balls to argue openly, then micturate off back to your Wii will you.

Willy Wombat AKA phil 2,000,003

Dixon Jan 20th 1:37pm

We know what YOU are trying to suggest.....most people who read these threads aren't so thick.

Dearest Dixon I agree, it's not the people who read the threads that are thick it's the ones that write them. I worry especially about the ones that get so uppity it can't be good for their health.
Joking aside are the issues here not too serious to resort to the all too easy option of slagging the other side off.
If y'all started coming up with some solutions we'd all be a lot better off! ( that goes for you too Ms phillips )

Frank P

An American (7.01pm)

Melanie has written at length in her Daily Mail column today on Obama's successful erection gala. I'm sure you would approve and there is a commentary box there:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1123922/MELANIE-PHILLIPS-Sorry-party-pooper-I-share-swooning-Obama-hysteria.html

Adam B.

Phil with a capital P. (the Israel hater) would it kill you to call yourself something else? On second thoughts, maybe don't post such drivel at all.

Adam B.

Shaun, yes Hamas was elected, but throwing dozens of Fatah members off rooftops isn't exactly democratic is it?

Adam B.

The BBC is the most influential news broadcaster in the UK, possibly the world with its global reach. The licence fee is the lifeblood of the BBC. We need a concerted, focused campaign to get public opinion behind scrapping the licence fee. Only then will its poison be limited.

Adam B.

It's interesting to read the "comments" left by the likes of Carl, wrighty, patricia, peter etc. Their tactic is always to accuse, and never to engage in discussion or answer points put to them. This is a general tactic of the haters, a kind of hit and run. By attacking all the time, they feel they never need to defend. Hence Carl refuses to condemn the anti-semitic Hamas charter, the screaming banshee patricia makes some hysterical unfounded claim irrelevant to the thread then clears off before anyone can engage with her. It's extremely childish, but I guess these people are intellectually immature to have the views (or list of hates) they hold in the first place.

Joe Strummer

George Laird - You can just picture wee daft George and his semi-educated middle class pals playing at being revolutionaries whilst the REAL Human Rights of Gazans are being abused every day by Hamas. Not In Glasgow's Name, wee man ! Heh - Heh !

Straydingo

Shaun, Nazis were also elected along with a whole host of other madmen across the globe - no one has every said democracy is perfect.

Straydingo

George Laird "The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University"

The fact you added this very grand title to the end of your post sums up what it is that drives you and you’re like - Self Righteousness.
You really don't care about those that lost their lives on either side - you only care that their deaths provide you with an opportunity to vent your venom.
Let me guess you believe that:

• Israel is a mere puppet of the US
• That the western world is behind all the misery that has been inflicted on the world over the course of the last couple hundred years – Oh, and that the rich Jews of the world help orchestrate this.
• That the earth is still warming and that man made Co2 is the cause
• That there should be no third runway built in Heathrow
• Oh and lets not forget that you also believe that Obama will heal the world.
How scary is the thought that you might possible grow up to be our next prime minister

phil

Carl at 5.09 ,I know Dixon can take care of himself and is more than a match for you ,but I want to tell you anyhow -you are a blinkered bigot,with no knowledge of the situation in the middle east,and not only that you are a bore ,why am I telling you this again ?-you know what carl ,because I like to .

Penny

Louise - just found a link to Asserson's work that might help me!

Cheers!

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp511.htm

Geraldine

I do like this blog. Interesting, never dull, witty and Melanie is such a good writer that if one were to ask what her greatest asset is, well clearly the answer would be, her pen is.

gary ashton

louise, 'what's going on?'
what is going on is very simple. to a lesser degree england and europe have sold their souls to the devil. saudi money has bailed out your economy, education systems and banks. no interest maybe but one small condition.
it's simple really.
and to a greater one your country is the UN's experimental multi cultural testing ground which works very well to a point and should be considered successful, until it embraces a minority that fundamentally subvert it using the host country's own values to infect the host's health.
this condition basically is the force at work through history, it's the fall of one civilization to the barbarian.

Dan

channel 4 News at 7pm Monday showed the devestation in a UN school. We also saw an explosion filmed by a mobile phone. This was presented as fact without question. But I have a question. How come we saw the view through the mobile including the hands that held the mobile. This could not be done without another camera behind the lens. This would have ben a great deal of trouble to go to if you did not know that an explosion was about to occur. This must therfor have been pre arranged. Doesn't anyone in our biased media check these things out?

Jerry

Regarding Carl: "You delude yourself, but I suppose the horrific toll of civilians killed by the IDF is too terrible to really think about. They wouldn't even let parents recover the bodies of their slaughtered children"

Carl, I was not there to feel the pain of people who were dying or the pain of people who watched their loved ones die. However, in just the past 48 hours Hamas has killed or wounded more Palestinians than were killed by Israel in the period of the war. The Palestinians to whom I refer were killed or maimed or tortured by Hamas as revenge for theoretically collaborating with Israel. You are entitled to complain of the deaths of innocents, but be honest. If you had to choose to live with group A or group B, I would guess you, as every other rational person, would choose Israel. Israeli Jews might talk you to death, but they would not pull out your fingernails or shoot you in the knees or kill you in front of your family. All these behaviors have been reported by Palestinian sources in the past two days.

Your position is too facile. The need for real choices would lead you to much more carefully considered pronouncements.

Ronnie

Phil (the imposter), simply in the interests of clarity it would be helpful if you did something with your name to avoid unecessary confusion, confusion that would reduce peoples' understanding of the points that you may make on these threads.

As the other Phil has been posting here for longer than most can remember, it would be an expression of good manners on your part if you would consent to do this.

Your fellow posters would be very grateful to you.

Carl

Well haters, you may have noticed that there is a new Sheriff in town (look up the word's origin). His name is Blessed.

Pete Hoskin

EC: Message received, thanks. We're looking to overhaul the comments system at some point in the not-too-distant, so all suggestions are welcomed.

Ros Morris

Will this be mentioned in our media here? I doubt it.

"THE MURDER OF PALESTINIANS IN GAZA"

Those who are shocked by the Palestinian death toll in Gaza might be interested in knowing that the figures being bandied about by Hamas and the Palestinian Red Crescent include dozens, possibly hundreds, of Fatah members who were murdered in cold blood by Hamas over the past three weeks.

Since the war began, Hamas has been rounding up Fatah members throughout the Gaza Strip. The ones who get off easy only get shot in the legs, have their eyes poked out, and/or have their hands smashed or cut off. Many others are simply murdered; sometimes in mass executions.

In a video clip, Jamal Najar, a popular Palestinian singer in the West Bank, describes how some of his cousins in Gaza were murdered by Hamas over the last few days, including a father who was shot dead in front of his children, for the crime of having walked out of his house.

Hamas officials have been including these people, that they themselves wounded and killed, in the casualty figures that they distribute to the press -- based on the reasoning that these victims, too, were killed in the context of the Israeli offensive. It should be noted, however, that Hamas' policy of torturing and murdering Fatah members (and often members of their families as well) dates back to Hamas' takeover of the Gaza Strip in June 2007. Hamas does not always try to hide these killings -- to the contrary, they sometimes film them, and proudly broadcast them on television with rousing musical accompaniment.

Since Saturday night, when Israel's unilateral cease fire went into effect, Hamas' roundups and murders of their Fatah rivals have dramatically increased.

Interestingly, however, the international media has barely been covering these ongoing tortures and murders, nor has any Western government seen fit to condemn them, or even make mention of them. Apparently, their excessive handwringing over Palestinian deaths is reserved exclusively for those deaths caused by Israel. Nobody actually gives a damn about the loss of Palestinian life, if those deaths are at the hands of other Palestinians.

Of course, this is not to imply that many Palestinians weren't killed in Israeli strikes. Many have asked why the level of civilian casualties in these strikes has been so high. An explanation for this is provided, not by an IDF spokesman, but by Hamas representative Fathi Hamad on Hamas TV: He explains that the Palestinians have deliberately turned death (their own) into an "industry" (his term) of which they are exceedingly proud. In order to bring about these glorious Palestinian deaths, Hamas fighters make a point of surrounding themselves with "a human shield of women, children, [and] the elderly". Why would they want to do such a thing, you may ask? Hamad answers this, too, using a phrase that has become, in recent years, a frequent statement of principle among Muslim clerics: "We [Muslims] love death as much as you [Jews and Westerners] love life". Watch it for yourself:

Given the Palestinians' brilliantly successful, suicidal "death industry", and their resolutely determined efforts to get as many women, children, and elderly as possible killed in Israeli strikes against terrorist targets, it is nothing short of incredible that Israel, because of its commitment to humane values, has somehow managed to keep the civilian death toll as low as it has been.'

Fred blogs

I'm assuming that trendy lefty Postmodernism is now dead? The Moral outrage expressed from every side sounds like Right and Wrong, Universal Truth (and Lies) do exist after all. Well, well, now there's a rum thing. Perhaps 'Most Modernism' was the better label after all.

david lynn

Carl, George Laird, please tell us why are you here? You must admit that your obsession with, Israel and "IDF atrocities" when there are atrocities all over the world, Kurdistan, Kongo, Georgia, Indonesia etc is rather odd. What is so special about Israel that turns you on? Tell us the truth, lift the burden of your heart.

Carl

david lynn - at least you put Israel in a peer group.

Maximilian

Ros Moris, your long post (today at 10:02 am) is interesting and important and is potentially very useful. Would you care to provide a link identifying the source?

david lynn

Carl, You've missed the quotes. Here's a deal! I'll pretend the quotes are not there if you answer my question.

AngloWelshDragon

Jerry
January 21st, 2009 3:31am

Jerry, you hit the nail on the head! Where would Carl prefer to live? Israel or Gaza? Iran or the USA? I know which I'd prefer and I think we can all guess which Carl would prefer if he was honest (which he patently isn't!).

These lefty haters have zero self esteem and nothing but loathing for the societies that have given them so much. I should probably pity him yet all I feel is contempt.

Louise

Adam B wrote: The BBC is the most influential news broadcaster in the UK, possibly the world with its global reach. The licence fee is the lifeblood of the BBC. We need a concerted, focused campaign to get public opinion behind scrapping the licence fee. Only then will its poison be limited.

Agree wholeheartedly - so why is the communal response so sluggish?! If only some MPs would emulate the famous "Five Members" of Charles I's reign, who refused to pay "Ship Money" thus triggering the demise of a tyranny. If several MPs were to refuse to pay the Licence Fee (our American cousins on this blog might be unaware that this is a rather hefty fee that every household in Britain that owns a TV set has to pay to the BBC, whether we watch BBC or not)it might start the ball rolling. This country's prisons are full to bursting as it is - they can't gaol us all!

J. Isaacs wrore: Louise: ISRAEL is hell-bent on casting Israel as the world's pariah. Haven't you been watching just about every news channel over the last few weeks? Doh.

Yes, I have, J. I., and with a few honourable exceptions I find them all intent on telling only one side of the story. The race to delegitimise and destroy Israel by media is upon us. With a few - very few - honourable exceptions, the world's media demonises the little Jewish State, ignoring the existential challenges it faces, while in the main turning a blind eye to the atrocities in the Congo, Darfur, and Tibet, and is not particularly concerned (where's the oh-so-politically-correct-and-feminist BBC on this point?) when the Taleban bombs 144 schools, most of them girls' schools. Strange, that. But then again, in view of what Gary writes, perhaps not.

Even the sagacity and calm reasoning of Shimon Peres, hardly a bloodthirsty old war-horse, yet a firm supporter of the Gaza strikes, let alone the articulate Mark Regev, cannot persuade a media that is pushing its own agenda.
What's wanted is not pro-Israel bias, just an end to anti-Israel bias.

Thanks for the link, Penny. I have probably seen it, but you never know!

Incidentally, has anyone else noticed that the BBC is now talking of "the 100-year-old conflict between Arab and Jew". I first noticed this phrase this weekend, and since then it has cropped up from several BBC mouths, and Bowen uses it on his latest blog.
A novel piece of spin, methinks, based on more historical inaccuracy.

phil

george the laird of glasgow has disappeared,probably swotting with carl "how to get respect" FAILED .

Ros Morris

Maximilian, the link is from Eli Ballon (NWES). As it's from an email link, it's probably not a good idea to post it here.

stanley Jerusalem

Just on an historical note,we have weathered, albeit dramatically, the storms of the Empires of Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Graeco-Assyria, Rome, Crusaders looking for loot under the guise of religion, Pogroms and Nazis.
The recently invented Palestinians filling our voracious media with sound-bites will eventually disappear too like the 1 million plus Israeli citizens who just happen to be Arabs.
As the American admiral in the Far East said to his commanders in 1944 about the inexplicable Japanese bombardment of an apparently unimportant American-occcupied little island, " We must be doing something right".

Dixon

Geraldine
January 21st, 2009 1:06am
I do like this blog. Interesting, never dull, witty and Melanie is such a good writer that if one were to ask what her greatest asset is, well clearly the answer would be, her pen is."

Well, Gerry, you obviously spent a lot of time practicing sarcasm in school, pity they didn't give you some remedial anatomy classes.

phil

Dixon don,t scold geraldine -its probably the only thing she is an expert in ,and I do not mean sarcasm :)

stanley Jerusalem

Shame on you Dixon She's trying to be nice.
[Isn't she?]

stanley Jerusalem

P.S.
Sorry!
Forgot the Medes & Persians.
Sorry Cyrus [Jewish grandmother!]

Adam B.

Louise, I don't think any MP's will lead the way. It's up to us - we need a campaign in national newpapers etc to truly mobilise mass support. Only then will MP's wake from their apathy. But we need someone to organize and fund such a campaign. I believe there would be mass support, if only we could tap into it. The idea has been gaining ground for the last few years.

phil

Dixon just realised it ,with your name you are best placed to address the lovely geraldine -I bet her surname is nixon :)---well I cant say off can I .there is a limit to Pete,s moderation (lol)

Louise

Adam B, an open letter of defiance might do it. But we need to enlist some eminent people to the cause. Maureen Lipman might be one, perhaps?
I often wonder what the two Jewish BBC newsreaders make of BBC bias. (They are frequently on screen together.) Perhaps it is to their credit that they manage to conceal their feelings. One of them, I have it on good authority, was on screen during the day reading the news last Yom Kippur and the year before that. Perhaps there's a message from that person in there somewhere.

C Solmonte

I'd like to ask the pro-Israeli posters here - the majority IMO - whether they agree that all parties to this conflict engage in propaganda and distortion of the facts? After all, mass media are part of the battlefield in modern warfare, and I for one believe all parties to this conflict have an inherent interest in skewing reporting and commenting on the war to formats and frames that advance their own strategical interests.

So, Hamas has a vested interest in claiming that the vast majority of those killed are innocent, while Israel has a vested interest in claiming the opposite. In the absence of a large presence of journalists and other relatively neutral fact-finding bodies in the Gaza area, I find it hard to credit any statements made from either side.

For what it's worth I agree with those who say that Hamas has repeatedly committed war crimes by for example using civilians as human shields. On the other hand so has the IDF, a practice implicitly verified when the Israeli Supreme Court felt it necessary to ban use of the practice in 2002.

J. Isaacs

Someone was pretending to be me at 12.58. What a hoot, although apologies to Louise for having to respond to this imposter. That person has been trying it on since last year with phil, Ben-Tsiyon (ha-rishon), me and others. Glad to know we have all been getting under that person's skin. Lets all keep up the good work.

phil

C Solmonte of course there is propaganda ,and one side is infinitely better at it than the other.,you need to use your own mind and think about the culture of the two sides -leave aside the small number of errant fighters who do not reflect the opinions of the majority .History is littered with isolated instances of wrong doing which should be deplored .The Israeli state makes it plain that its requirements are for its soldiers to behave according to the law and with humanity ,do you really think that is reciprocated .

I must add that none of us were there ,but with the benefit of hindsight ,the world has learned that the claims against Israel have in the vast number of cases been proved to be lies and distortions .I reccomend ,if I may ,you study the battle in Jenin some years ago when a massacre of 1000 was claimed -it later turned out to be 50 most of whom were militants and Israeli soldiers .

phil

J. Isaacs I think most people are smart enough to know what we think and write ,and realise the idiots that do these things are there just to annoy everyone -we will smile :)they will waste their time .keeps them from doing worse elswhere

phil

C Solmonte you asked -you got an answer ,but I did,nt

J. Isaacs

phil. Quite right. Good luck; and enjoy.