A defining moment

Jan

Put simply this charge takes the view that The Koran, the Hadith and so on, imams and Muslims can say what they like about unbelievers, but if any of those unbelievers say something back, it's criminal.

These are the depths to which Europe has sunk. Islam trumps everything else and we are all second class to it - and its believers.

Alcuin

This is absolutely outrageous. Melanie shows how our default position has been pushed back from the moral stance we held up to 50 years ago, and the servile expediancy we are now reduced to. I urge all to write to express our disgust:

Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands
38 Hyde Park Gate
London SW7 5DP

Francis

There is a petition calling on the Dutch government to drop this shameful prosecution and I urge everyone to sign it:
http://www.petitiononline.com/wilders/petition.html

Kiwi

This short poem, often quoted by Churchill, seems entirely appropriate for today's disturbing events in Holland. The Gathering Storm, part 2, anyone?
"Who is in charge of the clattering train?
The axles creak and the couplings strain
And the pace is hot, and the points are near,
And Sleep has deadened the driver’s ear;
And the signals flash through the night in vain,
For Death is in charge of the clattering train."

Truthtriumphs

This is an outrage. A man is prosecuted for telling the truth as it is.
And, by the way, Wilders was under no obligation to point out that there are millions of Muslims "who lead pacific and unthreatening lives". They are not the ones who will change the course of history, and in any event, we are not privy to their innermost thoughts.
So now we see a revised understanding for the concept of freedom of speech, depending on the ethnic group to which one belongs.
Wilders deserves all the help we can give him, and more.
I hope a fund will be set up to help with his legal fees in fighting this outrage.

Darren

Lets hope and pray the judge/jury will see matters clearly.

Fascinating quote from the River War. Only a matter of time before it is targeted for revision...

an ex-apprentice

Dear Melanie,

The EU Parliament and the European Court of Human Rights are moving increasingly to make insult and the giving of offence illegal. I quote, as illustration, from the EU Parliamentary Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights Report dated June 2007:

"With regard to blasphemy, religious insults and hate speech against persons on the grounds of their religion, the state is responsible for determining what should count as criminal offences within the limits imposed by the case-law of the European Court of Human Rights.

In multicultural societies, freedom of expression (Article 10 of the European Convention on
Human Rights (ECHR)) and freedom of thought, conscience and religion (Article 9 ECHR)
occasionally have to be reconciled. In some instances, it may also be necessary to place restrictions on these freedoms.

In the case of unjustified insulting attacks on objects of religious veneration the Court
recognises the possibility of the Contracting States to take measures to restrict the freedom of opinion. The Court recognised for example that, in the absence of a uniform European conception of the requirements of the protection of the rights of others in relation to attacks on their religious convictions, states have a wider margin of appreciation when regulating freedom of expression in connection with moral or religious issues compared to interferences with political speech. However, this margin can never be unrestricted.

In accordance with the recommendation of the European Commission against Racism and
Intolerance (ECRI)13, public incitement to violence, hatred or discrimination, public insults and defamation or threats against a person or a grouping of persons on the grounds of their race, colour,
language, religion, nationality, or national or ethnic origin should be criminal offences, where such acts are committed intentionally. Furthermore, legislation in this regard should be applied resolutely
and consistently."

Offence and insult are, of course, subjective. I question, you criticise, they insult. You cannot say something which may be taken as an insult to a religion without also offending against its followers, and thereby committing, according to the above, a criminal offence.

You cannot have freedom of speech without the freedom to offend. We appear to be well embarked on the slippery slope to having neither.

BlairSupporter

Looks like he is about to be chakrabarti'd Melanie. Dutch style of course.

Perhaps he can call on the little Human & Civil Righters to hold his hand and reassure tell him that his evil government has NO right whatsoever to pick on him.

After all there's nothing intrinsically WRONG with a blue eyed, blond Dutchman saying what he thinks in his own FREE country.

Is there?

Last time I checked criticising a religion was NOT a crime.

What happened?

Over to you Shame of Chakrabarti.

(Apologies if this sounds personal, particularly when as far as I know SHE has nothing to do with this case. But I DO see the likes of the 'Liberty' director as symptomatic of our continent's deeply confused moral relativism.)

Trev

I agree with everything you are saying Melanie but for gods sake what is our solution. people just seem to be acting like the proverbial rabbit stuck in the headlights?all the people i know are just depressed and frustrated at what is going on here but just don't know where to turn.I believe that our government are being bribed financially by Islamists to get what they want so how the hell are we supposed to compete against that.The government of this country have got one thing in mind,line their own pockets,then take off to another country out of the way like Tony Blair has and laugh as they watch our demise.I don't give a shit about me Melanie i am 44 years old and have had a good crack at the whip but what about my kids and their future nobody seems to be worrying about them,surely their has got to be someone out there that's got the guts to take the bull by the horns and make change.Come on people its not to late to turn this round.

Lizzy

"Dutch Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende said at the time that the film wrongly equated Islam with violence and served ‘no purpose other than to offend’." Which planet is he living on?

The quotations from Churchill are a good call, Melanie.

An American

Read this article carefully...we are all being lead into the Netherland's footsteps. Our politicians are willingly signing our death warrants in deference to Islam.

Jay in the USA

Just another instance of Europe becoming the European Union of Islamic Republics. Get used to it my European friends. You reap what you sow, at least with respect to the incompetent, appeasement-loving politicians you elect. Your immigration policies and demographics are against you as well.

Ronnie

Yes, this should be seen as an opportunity.

A 'Dreyfus Case' scenario, a catalyst to finally having a proper and open debate on these issues.

Michael B

Geert Wilders in Jerusalem [recently]: “The Jihad against Israel is the Jihad against the West.”

Andre

The problem the West has is that it doesn't know what it stands for. Democary, freedom capitalistic, are all very well. The west has turned its back on Christianity and, just as ancient Israel did, has lost its way. It is only when the west re-embraces its Christian faith that it can once more understand the nature of the abomination we face. maybe this offends some readers but who cares? I do not speak to lease men but God

Alfas Sami

People like you wake up just now for this kind of situations and most of you are still sleep walking, Islamic extremist been getting ready for a long time to get aggressive in western Europe, and many people like the British been busy making money, shopping or going holidays, I notice I don't see such a extremism problem in southern and eastern Europe, mostly Netherlands and England, why?

BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO, TOO,SOFT
and I know they will pay good price for this

Shy Guy

Speaking of Churchill:

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.

The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

-- Sir Winston Churchill (The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 [London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899])

gary ashton

in that case the jails of europe will be filled and packed with islam fascists and leftists who seem to want to advertise almost daily in public their hatred of jews, americans and gays. (as yet they have not mentioned gypsy's)
unbelievable news, you europeans need to act now because we all know what happens when people do nothing.

sean

So in liberal Holland it's totally acceptable to carry placards saying 'Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas!", but it's illegal to quote the Koran if you're not a muslim.

Holland has just died. Shame. I used to love going there, in fact I was in the 'Dam over the new year. I really can't see myself going again...

Miranda Rose Smith

This is truly a "once to every man and nation" moment. Is there
a Geert Wilders Defence Fund? I'd like to contriute. Nobody would bat an eye if he were posting vile hate against Israel. Nobody would bat an eye if he made some quite valid criticism of Christianity. Only a few people would complain if he criticized the Hindu caste system. But let him speak a word against Islam and-PANIC!!!!Its because nobody is afraid of the Jews, the Christians, or the Hindus, and the Dutch government is TERRIFIED of the Moslems.
I've suggested before that someone who has stood up against Islamofascism should be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. I noinate Geert Wilders!!!

Tim Howard

I used to think that it was just ridiculous but well-minded "liberal" thinking but I'm not so sure now. It doesn't make any sense at all. Have they bought us ? Do we owe them a lot of money ? ( And to Kiwi, I think TS Eliot's "Straw Men" is also appropriate to the times )

anglicus

Will there be mass demonstrations worldwide by whites if Geert Wilders is convicted, I doubt it. Will there be mass demonstrations by Muslims if he is acquitted, absolutely

Miranda Rose Smith

Did Wilders call for the Koran to be banned? I'm against book-banning-or even book censoring. Whatever he said, he's a brave man.

Barrie

"All those ‘human rights’ supporters who tell us endlessly that we can only defend our society against terror if we remain true to its values now must decide whether they are going to defend Geert Wilders"

In the light of President Obama's recent war-time cowardice, his decision to close Guantanamo Bay and his Inauguration speech snidely siding with the ACLU view about prosecuting the enemies of our freedoms, I put Obama firmly in the camp of the EU Blindmen, not in Churchill or Lincoln's company.

Johan

Ronnie - what's to debate? Freedom of expression vs. censorship? And when anyone insults or offends Judaism who gives a toss?

Dave

It's all so confusing, Mel. This man should speak up! Rev Joseph Lowery should shut up! Thank goodness you are here to guide us.

Andy Leeds

It is a disgrace, but have we forgotten last year when Channel 4 made 'Undercover Mosque' the Police launched an investigation into the programme makers and not the evil Clerics we saw preaching hate at every verse end.

Islam is a belief like any other (in fact it is open to debate if it is a religion at all rather it is a political movement masquerading as a religion) so it is open to question and comment.

RPK

Hypocrisy to critcise the Dutch. A Midland police force here tried to prosecute Channel 4 after the programme on Mosques last year
That Chief Constable is a candidate to succeed Ian Blair

Norm

Geert Wilders in Jerusalem [recently]: “The Jihad against Israel is the Jihad against the West.”

Facinating - a must read.

Narine Alwaan

Melani, thank you for bring up this subject, i am Muslim woman, but the way I see this Muslim believers in the west are different then the Muslims we use to see back home, in the past, I never see any people like this, I just want to share my experience, I have some physical problems and my doctor told me to go to the gym, i use to be athlete in the past but I haven't exercise lately, so i start joining my local gym, after work one night I went to excerzise and this young Muslim man was starring on me while i was stretching, of course he made me uncomfortable, i was praying that he doesn't approach me, at the end he told me to leave otherwise he will assault me, how scary he was shouting on me, Allah will do this to you and all that, he told me I was behaving like a western wh*re, I could not believe, the English people was watching on us and after a while they did not say anything they look away, i think they were liberal ones, this is interesting subject, i agree what you wrote, before there was some Muslim movements like the ones you mentioned above who though they had a special link with God, but know it is a lot of them who been brain washed, I know this fanatics want to control the world, woman and children that is what is all about, lately they want to show off and they been allowed to behave like that by the government also they are taking advantage of this countries who are too liberal or don't have strong law & order, right now some of them are worst then the Nazi during 1930's, in the 2009 they are following Osama Ben Ladin, who is even worse then Heinrich Himmler, thank you for bring this up, it is important subject, and please remember the Muslim woman around Europe and the world who don't have a freedom under those guys who don't respect woman even there mothers

tommy

I think it was at the beginning of June 2005 that A delegation of Muslim leaders and senior scholars met Home Office Minister Paul Goggins, to seek clarification on the Incitement to Religious Hatred Bill.

The delegation requested the meeting to seek clarification on a number of matters relating to the bill. Recent confusion regarding freedoms to deliver khutbahs and to recite and quote from the Qur an and ahadith had raised concerns in the community that dawah and propagatory practices may be curtailed under the new legislation.
The delegation made suggestions to the minister to that IT MAY BE PREFERABLE TO TOTALLY EXEMPT THE HOLY TEXT WHICH WILL INCLUDE THE KORAN AND THE HADITHS FROM THE REMIT OF THE ACT

In other words they wanted the koran and hadiths to be exempt from the Incitement to Religious Hatred legislation
-----------
If islam is a religion of peace?? Why would they want an exemption or the koran,hadiths etc.,
YOU WORK IT OUT

Bill M

This is more than a tragedy. There is no justice here, just arrogant self righteous pride on the part of the prosecutors. This is Martin Luther against the pope.

It's no wonder the Antichrist will be able to waltz into position and mislead the masses. This type of injustice shows how it will be done and is only a greasing the of the skids in preparation for that time.

This is sick.

Martina Carr

Geert Wilders is very intelligent man, the Dutch don't deserve to have someone like him, they don't appreciate him, I think he should move to another country like Ayaan Hirsi did

Tas Walker

The problem for the west is that it has abandoned its Christian roots. The western liberties developed from an understanding of the world that came out of the reformation which was based on the belief that the Bible was the literal word of the Creator God.

But that was destroyed by Darwin and this year the world is celebrating. The prosecution of Wilders is just one of the consequences. See the 2009 Darwin Celebrations, especially the comment by the law professor "Without God’s law, anything goes. There is no protection against tyranny and social oppression."

Bill M

Interesting observation from joshuapundit:

There's a back story to Wilders' legal prosecution of course. Because of his popularity and the fact that many of the Dutch are increasingly starting to agree with Wilders, he's a major target of the Dutch Left which increasingly depends on Muslim votes in the elections. Wilder is particularly hated by Dutch Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende and Minister of Justice Hirsh Ballin.

What seems to have happened is that an MP of the PvdA (Labour) party Els Lucas originally sought to have the public prosecutor charge Wilders.When he declined, Lucas brought the case to the much more liberal Amsterdam appellate court...which agreed to prosecute Wilders, thus forcing the public prosecutor's hand. So there's a good chance that Balkenende and Ballin has an unseen hand in the sudden reversal. it benefits them politically since Wilders' party will now have to spend enormous sums on legal fees instead of politics and campaigning.

Apparently this is an attempt to run Geert Wilders out of the Netherlands, the same way Ayaan Hirss Ali was hounded out of the country.

On a larger scale,this represents a precedent that will be eagerly seized on in the EU by the Islamists and their allies on the Left in shutting down free speech.

As a point of interest, Dutch imam Ahmad Salam is a Syrian immigrant who is well known in the Netherlands for preaching sermons urging Muslim men to beat their wives, telling his followers not to pay their taxes in order to “damage the state and calling for the destruction of Israel and the Jews.

He still lives and preaches in the Netherlands. And nobody is prosecuting him for anything.

Nick Shelley

KING THEODEN (Western "elites"): I will not risk open war.
ARAGORN ( Churchill's Ghost): Open war is upon you, whether you would risk it or not
( Lord of the Rings- The Two Towers)
You are absolutely right Melanie- this is a war and a spiritual one at that, it's just that the "elites" don't know it

Sam Armstrong

Jay in the USA
January 22nd, 2009 5:42am

"Get used to it my European friends. You reap what you sow, at least with respect to the incompetent, appeasement-loving politicians you elect."

So, Jay - how is Day 3 of Barrack HUSSEIN Obama going?

Paul

This is all in line with our preachers of hate fiasco exposed by C4. The West Midlands Police have refused to act upon it. So it is ok for Muslims to break the law. It is ok for them to practise polygamy and receive welfare benefits for their practices. I have never ever known a more spineless and useless government.How to get rid of them? Do what I will do next time ie vote for what is called an extreme party. If enough do it it will have an effect. The next few years will see some real surprises here. The government are not yet aware of the depth of feeling here.

Steve bronfman

I assume the Muslims who actually made the offensive statements in fitna will also be charged?

Clive

Geert Wilders speaks about 'Fitna' here:
http://www.sappho.dk/arrangementer/geert-wilders-tale.html

davidka

It's clear that there are only two nations in the western democratic world that are facing up to the onslaught of islamic conquest. And it is no coincidence that both those nations are also those who have not tossed their judeo christian morality out of the window.
Will the Dutch now prosecute Theo van Gogh posthumously?

Alex Bensky

I would be interested in knowing what sort of statements about Judaism, say, come out of the Netherlands's mosques and other Islamic institutions. My guess is that they are not complimentary towards Judaism as a religion--we can easily guess what they say about Jews as people.

Yet, strangely, I don't think a Dutch court is likely to order prosecution of those who make such statements.

Alex Bensky

I would be interested in knowing what sort of statements about Judaism, say, come out of the Netherlands's mosques and other Islamic institutions. My guess is that they are not complimentary towards Judaism as a religion--we can easily guess what they say about Jews as people.

Yet, strangely, I don't think a Dutch court is likely to order prosecution of those who make such statements.

Maximilian

Geert Wilders is an articulate man, a professional politician, the head of a political party. His trial – if there is one – will be a big, attention-grabbing affair. Not even Al Beeb and the Grauniad will be able to pass by on the other side, pretending there’s nothing to report on.

Wyn

If this prosecution of Geert Wilders succeeds, then we in the West are well on our way to subservience. I do not believe that our leaders are as stupid as they seem, there seems to be a covert agenda at play here and our way of life is being steadily eroded, assisted by a soft, decadent European lifestyle. There are those among us who are sounding alarm bells but they are either misrepresented or unheard, just as Enoch Powell was vilified many years ago. Today we are again being warned, but we have no leadership to help us avoid the dangers whilst our enemies speak with one voice and are focused on their goal. Quite frankly, unless the general population awaken from their utopian dreams, then we will be overtaken by events.

Dixon

So will our friend the Galsgow University Human Rights champion George Laird be rushing to Mr vweelders defence?

Jusat a minute, or vac few...Carl is duer to pop up and perform marvellous feats of sophistry to try to convince us that Mr Weelders is a "racist" and responsible for putting white phiosphorous all over the innocent Gazaan babies of Holland!

Can't we see it coming?

Dixon

Maximilian
January 22nd, 2009 12:50pm
Geert Wilders is an articulate man, a professional politician, the head of a political party. His trial – if there is one – will be a big, attention-grabbing affair. Not even Al Beeb and the Grauniad will be able to pass by on the other side, pretending there’s nothing to report on."

WANNA BET?

You may havce noticed that I am no fan of the BNP, but to be fair, the prosecution of Nick Griffin for daring to declare in a speech a direct precis of a surah in the Quoran ...a simple statement of fact...could arguably have been considered a British version of this case. Sure, there was coverage of his arrest. But how much coverage was there of his acquittal?

Augustus

Let the sellers-out of freedom, bought with the blood and tears of the fallen, take note of this defining moment. And I say to those that close their eyes to the evil, and to the denouncer of evil, and who would persecute the denouncer of evil, that we will not give up the struggle. Those that landed in Nomandy in June 1944 did not do to make a Saudi Arabia out of Western Europe.

Daniel

There is a lack of balance, even paranoia, in some of the comments here. The UK has put Muslim clerics on trial for inciting hatred and violence. There is no fundamental issue of free speech involved - instead, we recognise that the right to free speech must, in some circumstances, be balanced by the needs of those who might become targets of violence and discrimination. Obviously the pendulum can swing too far the other way, but that is one of the dilemmas any civilised society has to deal with.

There are two fundamental questions. First, did Wilder's comments actually constitute an incitement to hatred and discrimination? If the answer is no, a prosecution is certainly unwarranted, but it is not inconceivable that there may be a case to answer. It depends on what was said, and how he said it.

The second question is whether the Dutch authorities take similar action against Islamic preachers of hate. I don't know the answer to this, but if they do there is nothing particularly alarming about them instigating a similar case against a white Dutchman if there is evidence to support it.

Frankly, to compare what is going on in the Netherlands with the rise of Nazism is simply laughable. There is not the slightest evidence that the citizens of European countries are acquiesing in an Islamic takeover of the continent. At most, what we are seeing is the use of violence and intimidation by a minority of Islamic extremists, and an excess of political correctness as liberal politicians mis-guidedly try to defuse the situation. This is in no way comparable to the rise of Nazism or the threat posed by Soviet communism.

I'm sick of US commentators like Mark Steyn telling Europeans that they are being Islamicised. Europeans are just as patriotic as Americans, and are prepared to defend their countries against real (as opposed to imaginary) threats. But the threat of terrorism from an aggrieved minority in multi-cultural European cities is in no way comparable to the wholesale destruction and genocide wrought by the invading German armies in 1939-40. It is precisely this sort of hysterical hyberbole from the Right that has undermined public support for the "war on terrorism".

David MacKinnon

Daniel,

Just read your big juicy rationalization for the regulation of speech in Europe. I'm thanking God right now that our Bill of Rights here in the U.S. still holds sway - however temporary that may be.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Daniel, what are you talking about? Mark Steyn is aware of what is going on in Europe, Europeans like the British are not aware of that they are loosing their culture and faith, there are not many British people who go to the church, we can see the big gap, so many Muslims and very little Christians

darsan

by calling the non-believers kaffirs and insisting on their destruction all non-muslims are deeply insulted. why should the islamists have freedom to insult and threaten and how does protesting this abominable view an ofence ?-darsan

Wilhelm

The Dutch are very nice people, but 40 years of liberalism has made them guilt ridden, ashamed over Dutch culture, a soft touch, door mats and they have been taken advantage of by the multicultural fanatical facist left with their self hatred, nutty logic and erroneaous thinking.

its all very sad for the Netherlands.
'' Those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first make mad .''

Vision Aforethought

@Daniel: Your posting will be interesting to re-read in the future. The fact people are showing concern at this matter may be similar to the warnings provided by environmentalists regarding CFSs 15 years ago. We banned them and the predicted disaster was prevented, or at least, the effects reduced. Likewise this matter will act as a test case and expose / solve / create debate about the issues you discuss - as well as those from the other side of opinion. Assuming the outcome of the case is such that any risks to our freedoms are protected (without too much harm to the well meaning people in the Muslim community), then everyone may benefit.

So, let's see what transpires.

Stephen J. Hulbert

@Daniel: This has nothing to do with balance - it's about limits. Either people have the right to say what they think - irrespective of whether others find it insulting - or they do not.

Are you suggesting Mark Steyn should be prosecuted now? Well, he already has been. I think this alone says something about the way our society is moving.

PC

The idea that multicultural, multi-racial societies are simply better, like a high street with more shops has turned out to be rather facile and naive hasn't it?
The block voting and politcal pressure, the terrorism, the import of international grievence to the domestic sphere, decreases in freedom of expression, decreases in all freedoms actually. I wish that it would have done with more care and thought to cultural cohesion certainly.

dp damato

The problem lies with the European and British right. The left in Europe has adopted all the tactics used by the American left. Multiculturalism, political correctness, highly funded "rights" groups, victim groups, the grievance industry, laser like focus on changing the culture, and most importantly a craven left wing media. In the US, the right has highly funded legal groups that litigate in order to deplete the left of resources. There is a highly funded and supported right wing electronic media. We have a pipeline of judges educated in conservatism. We stress constantly that America is a Judeo-Christian country. We demand that the Democrats prove they are patriotic. Our military, FBI, and most police forces are culturally conservative. We will not tolerate demonization of Israel. We do not expect to win every battle, but the left knows that we are going to oppose them on everything, and without let up. Most importantly we do not engage in silly debates over God and whether Christianity has merit. The right in much of Europe, especially northern Europe, spend as much time as the left attempting to expunge Christianity from the political sphere. If Wilders was a Christian he could simply say that these are his religious beliefs, and you are suppressing my freedom of religion. A strong muscular Christian base would leap to his defense. Wilder's defense is freedom of speech. The left doesn't believe in freedom of speech so the argument falls on deaf ears. The left believes that they are the enlightened ones, and that their way is the only way. They are the philosopher kings. In America this pretension is constantly mocked and ridiculed. The British are also good at this, but in much of northern Europe the masses believe their leaders are enlightened.
The right in Europe and Britain is not serious about gaining power and marginalizing the left. I suspect the right is waking up in Britain (more awareness of liberal media bias, disgust with political correctness, less fear of being patriotic, and more debate about secularism and religious belief)but there are miles to go. Keep up the good work Melanie!

Original Tony

Ronnie says it's time for debate...yeah right!! It's time for ACTION. Look where debate got Chamberlain!
Really we need a very bold leader to stand up and say it like it is and then to act.If moderate Muslims then join in to eradicate radicalism then so much the better but if they remain silent then we should interpret this as collusion with an evil doctrine. It is therefore not just the indigenous population that needs to react to fear and hate but the immigrant population also.

Wilhelm

Saw Geert Wilders on BBC news 24 Hardtalk interviewed by Stephen Sacker, Sacker ranted
and raved, trying to act the tough guy, he constantly interupted and screeeemed at Gert Wilders.

You can see bar room brawler Stephens Sacker's liberal biased Wilders interview on Youtube.

Wilhelm

Geert Wilders said that Europe are just a bunch of yellow appeasing, facist left, cowards over the Danish mohammad cartoon.

In the liberal world, Its ok to slag off Jesus but not Allah.

Why are guilt ridden liberals sooooo full of self hatred of their own culture ?

Wilhelm

Daniel

Its a word salad, son.

A rambling, incoherent, shambles of a comment.

algirdas

Wilders, bright man, saying things that should be said.

Wilhelm

Daniel

You have infringed Mark Steyns human rights, he's from Canada, son

Ronnie

Original Tony, you are right. I agree.

Ronnie

Nick Shelley, Gimly (Return of the King) 'Certain death, little chance of success. What are we waiting for?'

Shy Guy

Earlier today I posted here a link to the movie Fitna, for the benefit of those who haven't seen it.

I take it the powers that be here at the Spectator disapproved.

Why is that, dear moderator?

Manuel

You can make contributions to
the PVV (Party for Freedom) here:-
http://www.groepwilders.com/website/details.aspx?ID=22

In reality, this is a case WE all need to win, it is not only Geert Wilders in the dock, but all of us who can see the threat every day to our western values from the islamist communities around the globe. And now one of our own European governments has jumped into bed with this cult.
Id we do not stand with Geert we are all lost.
How does the Dutch government explain it is quite acceptable for demonstrators on the streets of Amsterdam to carry posters and scream "Death to Jews", which is a threat, whilst Wilders has only published tracts from the islamic tects with latter day comparisons? This is worse than 'double-standards'; this is craven cowardice.
Where next, which government next?

Wyn

Daniel, I'm afraid you are one of the people with utopian dreams that I mentioned a while ago. You appear to believe that there is no threat from radical Islamism, that there is just a sort of hysterical fear conjured up by the wicked right wingers to promote their agendas. The writing is on the wall for you to read. But "they have eyes but see not". Where is it going to end, Daniel? Have you heard what happened to Pim Fortuyn and Theo Van Gogh in their attempt to reveal the dangers? Read the daily reports not only in the Netherlands but also in other parts of the world. The people who think along your lines are in denial. You say "What threat? What's all the fuss about, they're only a few extremists, why worry? The people who think along your lines generally follow the cliches and slogans of the far left, without being aware of their hidden agenda. Believe me, Daniel, those people will surely mislead you and exploit you. I have seen their activities at first-hand. They will latch on to any grievance to advance their political standing, beware of false prophets, believe me. We are at a turning point, the Enoch Powells of today's world should not be denied their right to voice their opinions, sometimes it is the only way to hear the other argument, often denied by MSM. There is a real threat Daniel and I hope we all wake up to it before it's too late.

Spike

Francis: Thanks for the link to the petition.

Michael B. Thanks for link to the Jurusalem speech.

Daniel: IT'S THE DEMOGRAPHICS. When the Islamists are in the majority in Britain you will be subject to Sharia. How do you fancy that.

Preposteroso

Obituary
It is with great sadness that Frit notes the end of European civilisation. In their well paid wisdom, three judges in the Netherlands have decided the best way to preserve their future earnings is to decide to put on trial a man who has been saying adverse things about the intentions of some proponents of a certain religion. As Frit is not a religious person, and knows little of religious matters and himself wishes to avoid prison if possible, he has no idea which religion this is and can’t anywhere near imagine. The three well paid judges insist that “In a democratic system, hate speech is considered so serious that it is in the general interest to... draw a clear line". So that’s it then. In Europe, freedom of expression now officially means freedom to express the correct expressions only. In shock, people are saying that this is happening in “one of the most liberal societies in the world”. BUT THAT’S ENTIRELY WHAT LIBERALS ARE ABOUT!!!!

See The Thoughts of Frit blog for more comment of this type.

Neil Saunders

By seeking the prosecution of Geert Wilders the Dutch government is proving that Islam now enjoys special protection under Dutch law.

This protection overrides the freedom of thought or expression of non-Muslims, and therefore places Islam beyond criticism. It also turns a blind eye to Muslim thuggery towards anyone foolish enough to attempt such criticism.

Geert Wilders is (at present) under constant police protection. However, rather than guarantee freedom of thought and expression to a man who has literally been placed in mortal danger simply for saying what he thinks, the Dutch government has preferred to take the side of the very parties who are threatening his life, and thus to victimise the victim.

Any further proof of the dhimmi status of non-Muslims in the Netherlands in unnecessary.

ed

Daniel
I think you have written sense. The fact that many against you have said stuff like
"Daniel
Its a word salad, son.
A rambling, incoherent, shambles of a comment" shows you have won the argument.
It may an idealistic utopian view - but hey is that a bad thing?

Joe the patriot

It is to be expected on this site that many would agree with Melanie and, from the privacy of their keyboards, explain why the prosecution of Geert Wilders is so wrong, and so utterly tragic for Europe.

However this site is not universally read and there are many people out there who are simply too preoccupied with the usual pressures of life to notice the Islamisation of Europe, and who consequently are not too bothered by it. They need to hear.

The time has come for a quiet, determined and resolutely non-violent, collective expression of solidarity with Geert Wilders in particular, but also all those who challenge the consensus, like Melanie or Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Walid Phares or Irshad Manji. This should be public.

It requires enormous courage to say in public, what these people say, courage which I lack, and I suspect many others reading this site also lack.

But whilst not all can speak out boldly and in public, perhaps all can speak quietly. Let's speak to our friends, let no opportunity pass and tell as many people as we can that ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

For my part I intend to adopt a bumper sticker that simply says ENOUGH.

Just imagine driving to work next week and quietly noticing that every other car you pass, similarly has a bumper sticker that simply says ENOUGH!!

Wilhelm

An Egyptian schoolteacher beat to death a 10year old for not doing his home work, the boy had 4 broken ribs.

I dont hear guilt ridden liberals or the BBC screeeeeaming from the roof tops, funny that.

Penny

Narine - I am sorry to hear of your experience. Especially the fact that no one came to your aid. I am not sure why.....but I could hazard a guess.

The prospect of the fundamentalist interpretation of Islam increasing in the UK is, in my view, more terrifying for women than for men.

I am hugely disappointed in the UK government and its shadow parties for failing to understand the impact on many muslim women of both fundamentalism and Sharia law - alebeit in its 'negotiation'-type status - in the UK.

I am disappointed in people like Nick Clegg who called for a ceasefire in Gaza because the alternative would simply create more suicide bombers. Such statements imply a fear-ridden,'held-to-ransome' rationale.

Daniel - a year ago I might have agreed with you. However, I now believe 'something' is afoot. Not because of anything Melanie has written but from my own research. Under the radar of the populist media,there are many, many worrying situations.

Andy Leeds

What is perhaps being lost in all of this is the simple fact that Islam is a belief and is as open to question, examination and criticism as any other belief. I find many people who are quick to defend Islam have never read a Koran. They ought to do and then explain, in light of what they have read, why Islam 'is a religion of peace and tolerance'. It is anything but. And saying that is what Geert Wilders is guilty of.

Augustus

This concept of punishing people for insulting the religious feelings of other people is dangerously close to blasphemy laws as practiced by Islamic countries. The free world should scorn this unelightened and amateur ruling by the Dutch court, for if freedom of speech means anything, it also includes the freedom to have controversial opinions.

phil

Narine Alwaan you are a brave lady and our world can only hope that it is Muslims like you who will prevail-Until I saw your words I was going to write I am speechless ,but I cannot remain silent -now I can join with you and protest about senseless appeasers who threaten our way of life -.We are no threat to peaceful Muslims who I am sure are in a massive majority and who wish to live amongst us here in the west,the threat is from the maniacs like the one one that scared you .I hope you will find peace here, and this is from a Jew who believes we all are worthy of an equal chance .

If Francis reads this and can tell me how to sign the petition without disclosing my full name .I will gladly do so ,but I do not want to confront Narines lunatic on my doorstep ,particularly as we are not allowed to defend ourselves here lest we hurt our attacker ,-crazy world we live in !

I need to say to Daniel that it is obvious he has education and I think from what he has written he cares for the society within which he lives but he is exhibiting a great lack of awareness of danger .This happened in the 1930,s by well meaning people and resulted in millions of deaths -wake up Daniel before it is too late for both you ,Narine and me .

phil

Penny sorry to repeat your sentiments I wrote mine before I saw yours and obviously I agree with every word

B.Roozendaal

Perhaps I can put the commotion around the case against Geert Wilders in perspective. The public prosecutor so far had steered well clear of this case, knowing full well that prosecuting politicians for their political statements is a political and legal minefield.
The case against Wilders has been brought pro bono on behalf of 30 university students by one Gerard Spong, a flamboyantly gay criminal legal eagle who specialises in underworld cases and who, strangely, was a close friend of the late Pim Fortuyn.
The case against Wilders bears all the hallmarks of publicity seeking and exhibitonism. It remains to be seen if it will stand up in court.

Maximilian

Fifteen years or so ago in Brazil, a Pentecostalist "televangelist" got on the wrong side of the law by placing a two-foot high plaster image of the Virgin Mary on the floor beside his lectern and repeatedly prodding it with his foot while he was speaking, to convey his message that "it's only an image". The law didn't protect specifically the Catholic faith, it just said it was illegal to cause offence to people's religious sensibilities in a public place. Comment in the Brazilian press was preponderantly on the side of the law against the preacher. A few years later, when the Mohammed cartoons were published in Denmark, the Brazilian media handled them cautiously, reprinting some of them but only in a small size and on inside pages. Nobody got into trouble.

Maximilian

[Quote} "one Gerard Spong, a flamboyantly gay criminal legal eagle"

Gerard Spong? Sounds like a Wodehouse character.

Ken from glos

Nice to watch John Snow getting shafted by an Israeli spokesman this evening. Biased or what !

angus

Last week a christian lady, a friend of ours was about to leave a parking place. She waited for an elderly lady to move out ahead of her. In the confusion the old lady collided with a car illegally parked half on the pavement. Next to it was a group of 6 young Moroccan muslim youths. They immediately surrounded the driver, swearing and pushing at her, calling her a "whore". Our friend got out of her car and went to provide moral support, and was in turn surrounded pushed and crudely insulted. Incensed this middle-aged woman slapped the man in front of her. She was partly strangled and thrown over the bonnet of her car. She managed to escape.
This happened in Holland last week.

James Roberts

Penny, a year ago you might agree with Daniel, I am glad you change your mind and how you see things, I hope many people change as well, I wonder how long is it going to take some British people to wake up and find out the world we are living? maybe 15-20 years
before then we may have a civil war

Penny

Ken - I didn't see it.

Care to elaborate a little?

Wilhelm

Earth calling Ed, earth calling Ed

Daniel is not living in the real world, you and Dan are living in the land of candy floss, sunshine and ice cream.

Wake up and smell the fair trade coffee, kid.

Jerry

I think that the Dutch should move to another country in Europe and leave Holland to the Muslims. That way there will be an example in the midst of Europe about how things will change under the tutelage of Muslim influence. Forgive me, but a clear picture will only emerge when the forces at play run full out. Then, it will be time enough to decide what to do with the rest of Europe.

Dixon

Apologies in advance for my terrible typing...I've seen some of it appear on here...I blame a virus in the keyboard
;-)

On a matter very slightly off-topic but absolutely germaine to it...who saw what happenned on CH4 news tonight?

First there was one of their typical reports from Jonathan Miller...not the REAL Jonathan Miller, of course, the stupid one who works for ITN. In it he waxed hysterical about the weapons the Israelis had recently used, including, wowee, flechettes. A totally bog standard part of military arsenals since the cold war. I remember a USMC officer describing them to me as one of the options to project from an M203 grenade launcher in about 1977.

Then back to the studio for Jon Snow to confront Israeli spokesman Mark Regev on the issue. Regev I have longed to see replaced by someone more argumentative and less apologetically weak. But, hey, tonight he actually spoke back. Pointing out that no'one in Gaza can speak freely with thugs breathing down their necks. Snow tried to traduce this, assuring us that Jonathan Miller hadn't been bullied by anybody ( we live in hope ). But Regev was quick to seize the moment and point out that this was not what he had said.... then, mid sentence Snow declares "Thankyou for joining us" and turns to the camera as we see Regev's lips moving, sound cut, in the background.

This moment I found incredibly shocking. It's the first time I have ever seen a government spokesman for any nation on Earth blatantly silenced mid-sentence. As blatant an act of censorship as can be imagined.

Why. Clearly Snow had utterly lost the argument and it was as much to cover his rank incompetence as anything else. Jon Snow: cannot read an auto-cue, fluffs his lines worse than I mis-type mine, shrieks like a girl when he's excited, forgets which country he is in on screen and spends an awful lot of time on choosing his socks for the camera. what an idiot.

More to the point, what a bigot.

Benjamin

Reading these blogs, I've had a revelation. I'm starting a new movement - it's called Anti-theism. It's not that I don't beleive in God - its that I think he is a psychopath and a liar and should be put away, at least thats what I plan to tell if I ever get the chance. For thousands of years, whispering insiduously into our ears that we are the chosen ones, that what our particular prophet says is the only truth, that salvation can only come through following this particular way, that the other are infidels, unbelievers, etc.
I call upon humanity to fight against this monster called God, so that we can finally come to realise our common humanity. Humans, fight against this inhuman God, you have nothing to lose but your prejudices!

Dixon

Daniel: "But the threat of terrorism from an aggrieved minority in multi-cultural European cities is in no way comparable to the wholesale destruction and genocide wrought by the invading German armies in 1939-40."

Daniel, you simply misunderstand the issues raised by Mark Steyn, Melanie and others. Its not "terrorism" that is the "threat", but cultural subsumation.

Dixon

I elaborated, Penny, but it has been published, try again:

First there was one of their typical reports from Jonathan Miller...not the REAL Jonathan Miller, of course, the stupid one who works for ITN. In it he waxed hysterical about the weapons the Israelis had recently used, including, wowee, flechettes. A totally bog standard part of military arsenals since the cold war. I remember a USMC officer describing them to me as one of the options to project from an M203 grenade launcher in about 1977.

Then back to the studio for Jon Snow to confront Israeli spokesman Mark Regev on the issue. Regev I have longed to see replaced by someone more argumentative and less apologetically weak. But, hey, tonight he actually spoke back. Pointing out that no'one in Gaza can speak freely with thugs breathing down their necks. Snow tried to traduce this, assuring us that Jonathan Miller hadn't been bullied by anybody ( we live in hope ). But Regev was quick to seize the moment and point out that this was not what he had said.... then, mid sentence Snow declares "Thankyou for joining us" and turns to the camera as we see Regev's lips moving, sound cut, in the background.

This moment I found incredibly shocking. It's the first time I have ever seen a government spokesman for any nation on Earth blatantly silenced mid-sentence. As blatant an act of censorship as can be imagined.

Why. Clearly Snow had utterly lost the argument and it was as much to cover his rank incompetence as anything else. Jon Snow: cannot read an auto-cue, fluffs his lines worse than I mis-type mine, shrieks like a girl when he's excited, forgets which country he is in on screen and spends an awful lot of time on choosing his socks for the camera. what an idiot.

More to the point, what a bigot

Dixon

AAAArgh!!...Now it HAS been published..My allolopogies!

RCW

As usal Melanie has a brilliant and perceptiove analysis to share with us, that opens our minds.
Don't lose sight of the fact that as the UK's influence on European foreign policy is less than The Netherlands (for a lot of good reasons)means that this disgraceful capitulation by them will hold sway in the debating chambers and policies of the EU. God (assuming he is aliev) Help Us.

Dixon

Benjamin
January 22nd, 2009 8:22pm
Reading these blogs, I've had a revelation. I'm starting a new movement - it's called Anti-theism. It's not that I don't beleive in God - its that I think he is a psychopath and a liar and should be put away, at least thats what I plan to tell if I ever get the chance. For thousands of years, whispering insiduously into our ears that we are the chosen ones, that what our particular prophet says is the only truth, that salvation can only come through following this particular way, that the other are infidels, unbelievers, etc.
I call upon humanity to fight against this monster called God, so that we can finally come to realise our common humanity. Humans, fight against this inhuman God, you have nothing to lose but your prejudices!"

But Benjamin, that is pretty close to what I believe. I even posted comments on that account a while back in the thread about the assisted suicide issue.

The creation of this physical universe is the ultimate source of all evil. Every evil is an aspect of creation and that is the work of The Creator.

Arguments about Human responsibility and free will just don't explain inhuman evils: Bubonic plague, typhoid, cholera, smallpox, and thousands of other diseases, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tsunamis and numerous other disasters, parasites,predators, etc. These things are exclusively the work of God!

Nor are we the first to think like this. Of course not. In the Middle ages it was similar thinking that lead to the Albigensian Heresy and the Crusade that wiped out the Cathars. People who believed the creator of the material universe to be essentially the source of all evil. The "Demiurge".

God is not "love". It is oppression.

Of course you cannot fight God. But you can refrain from its worship.

The most chilling and degrading spectacle is that of hordes of Gods slaves prostrating themselves in abject submission. That is of course what "Islam" means, "submission".

Roland

A question for Pete Hoskin - over the last week or so there ha been a handful of posts from contributors with Muslim names - on this threead for example, from Narine Alwaan.

The style of these posts under different names is surprisingly uniform. Is it possible that these are not genuine posts? My apologies of course to those posting if they are true.

Wilhelm

Dixon

Jon Snow likes wearing pink socks and colourful ties, I think he wants to give us the impression that he is a zany, wacky, crazy, guy.

People like that usually dont have a sense of humour.

Wilhelm

Dixon

Watch newsnight reader Liebour fan Kirsty Squawk's interview with Alex Salmond on
Youtube.

Talk about a screeeeeeeeming harpy.

Yeah, Liebour BBC bias, dont you just love it.

Neil Turner

See below for the BBC / Channel 4 / Sky News guidelines for Israel....

1. always accept the Palestinian version without question

2. interview at least 8 Palestinian supporters to every Israeli supporter

3. assume the UN is impartial

4. asume any video / photos provided by Palestinians are always reliable - never question their veracity

5. gloss over the last 60 years of history (never mention how 6 arab armies tried to destroy Israel in '48, '67, and '73)

6. don't report how Hamas (etc) bully and murder their own people, or misappropriate aid/finance (or if you do, play it down)

7. NEVER mention that Iran / Hamas / Fatah have vowed to destroy Israel and kill every Jew in the world (if you do mention it, assume they don't really mean it)

8. Report only the words that Fatah say in english, never what they say in arabic

9. if you interview an Israeli (or supporter such as Colonel Kemp, Mark Regev), make sure you interrupt them frequently. If you're coming off second best, tell them you're running out of time

10. if interviewing a Palestinian (or Annie Lennox), make sure you ask them lots of really open questions, allowing lots of time to air their views without interruption - nod frequently to show your support

11. above all, your tone should exhibit disapproval towards Israel, and sympathy towards Palestinians

12. ensure you use the word "occupation" as much as you can (don't get involved in meaningless discussions concerning how Israel either paid huge sums for the land in '48, or won it when arabs declared war on them)

13. never report anti-semitic attacks/incidents from the UK or elsewhere

14. don't report Pro-Israel activity such as marches

Note to Producers - it helps if you can loop footage of hysterical Palestinian Hamas activist women beating their breast, with a few shots also of ultra-left wing Norwegian Doctors running after ambulances

Despair

oh by the way - how great to read some lines by Churchill again - what a writer - and oh how we miss him..!!!

Dave M

"I find many people who are quick to defend Islam have never read a Koran."

The boxer Muhammad Ali these days adheres to his own interpretation of Islam. For the record, his closest friends have always been Jews and he believes quite frankly Jews, Christians and Muslims who believe in God and live a good life will go to heaven. Therefore, Ali is very moderate. It's also interesting that Ali has always been dead against forcing any set of beliefs onto other people. In his younger days he was totally opposed to multiculturalism too which he called "forced integration". The odd thing is that Ali was by other peoples' standards a bit of a racist yet today he's widely admired by the left. Had Ali been white he'd have been hated by the left. I mean, he stood out against all forms of multiculturalism. I believe if Ali was able to talk as he did in the older days the new brand of racism against whites would be something that would anger him. Neither would he agree with Islam being forced upon other people by the current crop of politicians. I always try to distinguish between personal Islam and Political Islam. Someone who quietly practises any faith system in peace doesn't bother me. Politics mixed with religion does.

Dixon

Wilhelm, how right you are about the humorless sock wearers. I am reminded of those young men who think its the height of outgoing zanieness to wear a Guinness hat during the Six Nations drinking circuit. They are invariably out in a gang all dressed identiaclly including said hat. yes, there IS a joke there, but its not the one they think it is!

Such self-declaratively "zany" people are usually unspeakably grey and conformist in character. And they are intolerant of anyone who is at all "different".

Dave M

Europe's problem is it has gone soft. I can't help but put a lot of it down to the fact there is no more national service. Somehow society has become wishy-washy. Here in the U.K. people feel proud to boast of how "tolerant" they are. Thus, we're urged to tolerate those who are themselves "intolerant". "Tolerance of intolerance" is the new foundation of society. Yet the Beeb and New Labour alike are intolerant of those of us who don't wish to tolerate certain imported ideals and ideologies. What a paradox that is! Taken to the extreme, in the Beebs' eyes a "liberal progressive" is a person who will quite happily defend the rights of the Taliban to live in the U.K., have six wives, strive for social Jihad within the country, champion the call for censorship of criticism of religion and so on. Those of us who suggest that just maybe we shouldn't be tolerating mediaeval norms of behaviour are, of course, racists. Europe's drive to be tolerant, therfore, is destroying the foundations of its democracy.

KM

Lets`face reality,we have allowed ourselves to become weaklings of Body , mind and spirit. Now we are reaping the cost....97% of Europe dont give a toss .... the 3% who do don,t give a toss about US and we are going to realize too late that they will have their way .....
all the blogs in the world will have absolutely no effect on them..........even a dog knows its place in the pack depends on its strength and ability to hold its own.....says it all really and they sense this...from within do all arrogant civilizations fall and ours is aided and abetted by stupid dachshunds that cant get off their bellies crawling. We have bred idiot weaklings who rule but could not survive in the pack without hunter killers to protect them ...we do and they scorn us ....beats me !!

Manuel

GAZA DOCTOR SAYS DEATH TOLL INFLATED.
The REAL stories are starting to come out of Gaza but you will not see or hear these on BBC/Ch4 etc as they don't fit these broadcasters' message.
Last Thursday's Question Time (BBC) we saw Dimbleby not only cutting short a lady trying to tell us about the hamas charter (pledging annihilation of Israel & all Jews) but he ordered the mic to be removed from her and then this Thursday evening on Ch 4 News Jon "the socks" Snow rudely cutting of Mark Regev as he attempted to demolish the falsehoods of Snow's diatribe. How much lower can these two "news" channels sink?
Now here is the other Gaza story, which wholly corroborates the IDF's version.
No mention of these stories on BBC or Ch 4. Wonder why Mr. Snow?

What really is behind the numbers reported on the number of civilian casualties in the Gaza Strip? Italian newspaper Corriere Della Sera reported Thursday that a doctor working in Gaza's Shifa Hospital claimed that Hamas has intentionally inflated the number of casualties resulting from Israel's Operation Cast Lead.

"The number of deceased stands at no more than 500 to 600. Most of them are youths between the ages of 17 to 23 who were recruited to the ranks of Hamas, who sent them to the slaughter," according to the newspaper article....

A Tal al-Hawa resident told the newspaper's reporter, "Armed Hamas men sought out a good position for provoking the Israelis. There were mostly teenagers, aged 16 or 17, and armed. They couldn't do a thing against a tank or a jet. They knew they are much weaker, but they fired at our houses so that they could blame Israel for war crimes."

The reporter for the Italian newspaper also quoted reporters in the Strip who told of Hamas' exaggerated figures, "We have already said to Hamas commanders – why do you insist on inflating the number of victims?"

These same reporters mentioned that the truth that will come out is likely to be similar to what occurred in Operation Defensive Shield in Jenin. "Then, there was first talk of 1,500 deaths. But then it turned out that there were only 54, 45 of which were armed men," the Palestinian reporters told the Italian newspaper.

We now await BBC News & "the Socks" news to offer these reports on their Friday bulletins. What chance?

Truthtriumphs

Did anyone see Question Time last week, when Dimbleby abruptly ordered the mike to be taken away from an obviously knowledgeable woman defending Israel, under the pretext that she had had her say?
Part of the same misplaced deference to Islam/ Muslims, at which the BBC excels.

Terry

In a modern, ever so cultured and civilised, europe that has put the Jews on trial and found them guilty of the crime of survival.....what's new? Dust out those old priest holes built to hide from Henry VIII....we need them now for law abiding democrats practicing the horrible religion of free speech. We need to keep practicing free speech so we know what to do when and if we ever get it back.

Lizzy

Neil Turner - brilliant post! I laughed, then remembered those guidelines really are the ones (so called) journalists are following. It's nauseating, as we seem to say often around here.

G Miller

Nick Shelley.

Another LotR line is where Theoden, holed up in Helms Deep, says "How did it come to this ?".

Many parallels lie in that tale.

Hopefully, on day, we will hear our "Elite" utter the words:

""Arise, arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered, a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!"

Perhaps Gondor is Israel ?

But that would be expecting too much of the craven cowards selling us all into dhimmitude.

One day, however, we will arise and perhaps this recession will provide the catalyst.

I look forward to the "scouring of the Shire".

Archie

Maximillian: The Goons, surely?

Augustus

There is a clear difference in law between religion itself and people. A religion is a compilation of guidelines, anecdotes, customs, assumptions and objectives, which in themselves have no emotions. A religion can not of itself be insulted, only people can. There is, therefore,, no case for Wilders to answer with regard to the insulting of Muslims, because his articles and film were aimed at the religion itself and not at individual believers.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Dave M, " Somehow society has become wishy-washy", it is true and I agree with you "unuseful society", and I wonder why it took so long for some people to understand?

the left wing liberals who say we are tolerant, multicultural people who get along are nothing but misleading and lying to the sleep walking society

Neil Saunders

To understand exactly what has happened in Europe I urge every reader of/contributor to this forum to read Fjordman's "Defeating Eurabia" blogs at The Gates of Vienna web site. (These blogs have been collected, and are also available in book form, although it is rather expensive.)

"Defeating Eurabia" exposes fully the extent of capitulation to the most illiberal interpretations of Islam by our self-proclaimedly liberal elites. The blogs also incidentally show the level of lunacy in areas other than the craven appeasement of Islamic clerical fascism. (For example, the Swedish kindergarten that requires pre-school boys to adopt female names and wear dresses.)

However, as the title suggest, the blogs also suggest ways of countering "Eurabia" and restoring sanity.

You cannot understand the modern world properly without reading Fjordman!

phil

Dave M I loved you piece on ALI-,I think he is the best loved man on the planet mapart from an amazing boxer ,my mum would always watch any time he was boxing and she never saw another fight !It is our awful look that he could not speak for Muslims as he would have made such a difference.

phil

dave m sorry look meant luck :) need my secretary back

hadrian

That the European Courts may soon be prosecuting for offending against religion is a truly lamentable indicator of the utter ignorance that infects the whole EU project. We all know, of course, that what this really means is that Moslem fanatics will be only too free to insult christianity and incite against the Jews and 'degenerate West' where as no Christian will be allowed to state that outside of Christ there is no salvation- a basic plank of evangelical belief, however offensive others may find it.
And since when did liberal Holland decide that one of her citizens no longer has the right to crtique as severely as he likes any world view, and that one world-view, at any rate must not be allowed to be robustly exposed to censure?
The Dutch are fools if they supinely sit under this inequitable nonsense.

BullCats

It's not just the BBC that's hysterical in its hatred for Israel. Please log on to the Scottish Parliament web site; you will be treated to liberal democrat MSP Hugh O'Donnells opening remark "The Palestinian people are paying a high price for European guilt over what happened to European Jews during the War." At that most of the MSPs present stood and cheered, like a baying mob.

I have written to Nick Clegg and Tavish Scott (leader of Scottish Lib Dems) but they have refused to distance themselves from O'Donnell's remarks. I am ashamed to be Scottish.

Joe the patriot

Nothing to disagree with in your post hadrian, except the last sentence, in which I would substitute 'The Dutch' for 'The citizens of every country in the free world'.

Other than the conservative blogosphere, I have seen no evident outrage over this prosecution.

There needs to be a public campaign, and ordinary people, need calmly and quietly, to make their anger felt.

ENOUGH is ENOUGH.

Janette Wells

I witnessed a placard carried by a girl no more that 6 years old in Melbourne at a Pro-Palestinian Rally on 18th January.The placard said "The Jews deserve more of this (3 arrows were pointing to a swastika)". I have tried to make a complaint under the Racial and Religious Tolerance Act in Victoria but because the woman standing next to the chid was in full niqab and can't be recognised and I can't provide a name then an a complaint can't be served. The organisers of the March can't be targeted either. What kind of Act is this when it cannot prosecute grotesque foul and obscene relgious racism hiding behind and child and a person in Muslim dress. Foul foul cowards. What is Wilders bank account number - count me in.

charles soper

Neil, the danger with Fjordmann is his alleged fascist and racist links, the same appies to the Gates of Vienna.

We want open criticism of Islamist (and of Christian, Jewish, Hindu or an other abuses) - but not at the cost of falling into the arms of racists and bigots. Charles Johnson (LGF) has taken a proper lead on this.

Alcuin, thanks for the address of the Dutch Ambassador, I have written to him too, even though it no doubt will be presented as a judicial not a political decision.

Dan

First there was one of their typical reports from Jonathan Miller...not the REAL Jonathan Miller, of course, the stupid one who works for ITN. In it he waxed hysterical about the weapons the Israelis had recently used, including, wowee, flechettes. A totally bog standard part of military arsenals since the cold war. I remember a USMC officer describing them to me as one of the options to project from an M203 grenade launcher in about 1977.
Then back to the studio for Jon Snow to confront Israeli spokesman Mark Regev on the issue. Regev I have longed to see replaced by someone more argumentative and less apologetically weak. But, hey, tonight he actually spoke back. Pointing out that no'one in Gaza can speak freely with thugs breathing down their necks. Snow tried to traduce this, assuring us that Jonathan Miller hadn't been bullied by anybody ( we live in hope ). But Regev was quick to seize the moment and point out that this was not what he had said.... then, mid sentence Snow declares "Thankyou for joining us" and turns to the camera as we see Regev's lips moving, sound cut, in the background.
This moment I found incredibly shocking. It's the first time I have ever seen a government spokesman for any nation on Earth blatantly silenced mid-sentence. As blatant an act of censorship as can be imagined.
Why. Clearly Snow had utterly lost the argument and it was as much to cover his rank incompetence as anything else. Jon Snow: cannot read an auto-cue, fluffs his lines worse than I mis-type mine, shrieks like a girl when he's excited, forgets which country he is in on screen and spends an awful lot of time on choosing his socks for the camera. what an idiot.
More to the point, what a bigot.

I totally agree. In an effort to defame the IDF, we are shown on the one hand, large explosians that destroy property - isn't that awful. Then we are shown a device designed to take out combatents which causes less damage to property - how cruel! When Israilis defend themselves they are despised as the agresser. They simply cannot win. Did you notice on Channel 4 news (Monday) we were shown around the UN school and film taken from a mobile that captured an explosion. This had all the hallmarks of Palywood. We saw the view from behind the mobile with a pair of hands holding the mobile. What was the other camera doing? proving that the film was from a mobile phone? How convenient that this 2 camera set up was in time to film the explosion! Incidentally there were no casulties shown in this instance.

Roland

I'll try to get this posted for the second time: Neil Turner's jeering remark about hysterical 'Palestinian women beating their breast' is utterly offensive - you are talking about women who have lost their children.

Dan

I was pleased to see a reference to Question Time. I have had a morbid fascination for this program. The audience seems to be packed with lefty/liberal do gooders and Muslims with a specific agenda.They are quite organised. At every oportunity, regardless of topic, a panelist to gain favour would mention the war in Iraq - to thunderous applause. This antiwar sentiment has been hijacked to include vitriolic censorship of Israel (the only democracy in the Middle East) although the only part that Israel played was to receive incoming rockets! I can sympathise with Palestinians. They have suffered from a lousy leadership. Many live in poverty but what happened to the millions stowed away in foreign banks by Yasser Arrafat? At the time of his death there was an internal struggle to get hold of it. Noone seemed to know the full extent of his various bank accounts. Presumable this was foreign aid money. It could be quite useful now.

Steve

Daniel, North Americans came to the rescue of Europeans sixty years ago when they were threatened by fascism. We won't be coming again, spending our lives and treasure to rescue the wilfully blind like you. So enjoy your totalitarian future. The real test for Europe won't be the Wilders prosecution; it will be the next Dutch election. If the electorate don't back Wilders' party overwhelmingly, we'll all know that Europe has willingly sealed its own fate. The same is true in the UK and many other countries. It will be a lonely world for a free North America, but I hope the pitiful European experience will strengthen our resolve to defend our liberty at whatever cost. If Churchill were to say that in today's Europe, maybe he would meet Wilders' fate too.

jan

It's not the dutch people who has these stupid ideas, but our pM Balkenende. One of the biggest cowards the world has ever seen. He lost the elections, but became PM with the support of the PVDA party, the party of islamic people and dhimmies. Please come over to save the dutch from this man.

Neil Turner

Roland
January 24th, 2009 4:19pm

I suppose those would be the same children who

- are herded into booby-trapped houses by Hamas ?
- are taught to idolise suicide bombers at the age of 6 ?
- whose families were warned by the IDF to get out of the area BEFORE the action took place
- are used as spotters by Hamas cowards hiding under trees

I too weep for children harmed by this conflict, Israelis included. You have to understand Roland that Islamists place no value on human life, only that it extends the perimeter of Sharia.

Caesar Lion Cachet

LS...

This is not the first time the parliament,the Royals and the law is letting the Dutch people down. They murder if they can not win with arguments.
Shame and a curse on them til the end of time...

Trev

Just an observation Melanie,Sky news usually allow people to make comments about most news topics.But when it comes to anti hamas views they shut it down.

Roland

Neil - the facts you cite are all the subject of debate. Whether or not true, or to what to degree, nothing excuses the language and tone you used. Those women beating their breasts are either pawns in Hamas's game, as you believe, or victims of unjutifiable aggression by the IDF - or very possibly a mixture of both. Either way, they are victims, presumably suffering unimagineable pain, and that fact needs to be remembered on these pages.

I do not 'need to understand' anything, as you put it. I am - to wearily repeat - well aware of the crimes of Hamas. My only objection through all the threads on this blog during the invasion of Gaza is the dishonesty I perceive. You can argue the rights and wrongs, and the allocation of blame. What really sticks in my craw is the attempt to deny that suffering has taken place - the twisting of casualty figures, the obsession with an allegedly biased media (blaming the messenger for unpalatable news), to the downright denial of photographic/rolling film footage - these are all morally reprehensible attempts to slither away from the enormity of the suffering that has taken place, which, for right or wrong, justifiable or not, would not have happened if the invasion by IDF had not taken place.

Christopher Kelleher

Some people just don't understand our Brave New World--in Holland, I think that's Moedige Nieuwe Wereld. "Freedom" now means "pleasure" and has nothing to do with speaking the truth, especially if that truth might upset some very excitable voters and their kinsmen.

BullCats

Steve, for whom shall we vote? Every mainstream UK political party has been emasculated by political correctness. Anyone who dares express concern over Islamic violence and intimidation is labelled "islamaphobic" and ignored. There is no one to vote for. No one.

Herbert Thornton

Bullcats - No one? Certainly no one that anybody's allowed to mention. Naming the party concerned however usually leads to being ignored. Exceptions do occur, though rarely. See, for example, the replies to James Forsyth's recent blog where he asserts that there will be a Tory Landslide.

Anna

Jay of the USA,
I found your comments very funny considering your country just voted in BHO!
We will wait and see what appeasement tactics he whips out of a hat
and then hear from you again !

Valentinus

Nice to see the quotation from the far-sighted Churchill. Perhaps these typically astringent and orientalist generalisations help explain the lapse in judgement that prompted Churchill to land a few unfortunate Australians in the Dardanelles believing that the Muslim Ottoman Empire would crumple with a strong showing of Western nerve. He found, instead, a highly organised and modern field army which sent his rag-tag expedition fleeing from Gallipolli with its tail between its legs (and a lot of dead young men left behind). Thanks for the illuminating insight, Melanie.

Dupont

Stop talking, start acting
Isn't your freedom worth a stamp???

If Geert Wilders falls, then Freedom of speech is dead in Europe. We are launching an extensive International Action SITA including two possible texts ; one comparing Wilders and Winston Churchill and another Wilders and Charlie Chaplin:

http://sitamnesty.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/i-support-democrat-geert-winston-wilders-against-islamic-fascism-and-its-dhimmis (Winston Eng)

http://sitamnesty.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/i-support-democrat-geert-charlie-wilders-against-islamic-fascism (Charlie Eng)

To support Geert Wilders and our dearly acquired freedoms please participate to the 2 suggested actions and transmit this message to your friends owners of a website in order they publish it.

An other way to support Geert Wilders is to give some money. To donate: www.geertwilders.nl

ExtraHot

ShyGuy, Churchill on Jews, bringing the holocaust upon thmeselves he also believed that the protocols were real.
-
The Jewish Conspiracy has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the nineteenth Century.' (Winston Churchill, Illustrated Sunday Herald Feb 8th 1920)

There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution, by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews. The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in the brief period of terror during which Bela Kun ruled in Hungary. The same phenomenon has been presented in Germany (especially in Bavaria), Needless to say, the most intense passions of revenge have been excited in the breasts of the Russian people.