What the war in Gaza was really about

Mike

Apparently, psychiatrist Kenneth Levin's PhD thesis was on "Sigmund Freud's Early Studies of the Neuroses, 1886-1905." As we all know, 'Neuroses' is a neurotic disorder and refers, I understand, to any mental imbalance that causes distress.......anxiety, obsessive-compulsive disorder, hysteria and phobias.....including pyromania.....an impulse to deliberately start fires to relieve tension and typically includes feelings of gratification.

Levin is also author of 'The Psychology of Populations under Chronic Siege' or Occupation I would suggest.

Oh dear! In the context of what has just taken place in Gaza, before and after the 2009 War, I would have thought Melanie has unwittingly 'shot herself in the foot'.....as they say.

phil

Israel,s worst nightmare are the Jews who think they are immune because they do not agree with a strong Israel ,they never seem to realise that they will be treated the same way as the nazi,s treated German Jews -it did not matter that they were assimilated and even rejected their faith ,they were Jews AND THEY WERE TO BE SLAUGHTERED .
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I saw the incredible Norman Finklestein on press tv the other night ,it was my first time -he spoke in the monologue of a zombie,staring eyes with the most insane analysis of ISRAEL,S position-even the Arab interviewr had to tell him to hurry up,before he fell off his perch- he is a "professor" but has been sacked from his position by the American university that employed him because of his ridiculous views -he is just one of so many fools we have amongst us Ilan Pappe is another -it would be no comfort to me to be walking to the executioner side by side with them muttering but,but.---
----------------
We need to stay strong and remember who and what we are ,and what our principles .They have sustained us through terrible times and will again so long as we stay with them and do not deviate -both the USA and ISRAEL are wonderful friends and need to be terrible enemies -that is our image of JEHOVAH and I do not think we can improve on that .

phil

No MIKE IT APPEARS THAT IS WHAT YOU HAVE DONE -FEEL BETTER NOW ,RELIEVED ? YOU DO IT A LOT ,NOW I UNDERSTAND ,YOU HAVE MY SYMPATHY.

J. Isaacs

A "magisterial" analysis certainly. Especially telling is the following:

"...hypocrisy is seen among many Diaspora Jews, who likewise endorse the indictments of those who would destroy Israel, join in defamation and delegitimization of the state, and do so while averring only the highest ethical motives. A list of American and European Jews of this ilk would fill many pages."

In the UK, that list is headed by the 606 signatories to the manifesto of anti-Israel group "Independent Jewish Voices." The list has just reduced from 607 with the recent death of the late Harold Pinter. Jewish turkeys voting for Christmas, all of them.

james Murphy

Mike, re. Melanie having 'shot herself in the foot' - Look, you're new here, Mike, so I'll be gentle with you: your 6th form debating sarcasm is woefully out of its depth on this blog: it's not funny and it's definitely not clever, You really do need to graduate to a degree of intellectual maturity and penetration if you're to make respectable demands on the time of readers on this site. Having waded through your pointless paragraph above, may I respectfully ask that in future, before posting, you always ask yourself: 'am I adding anything new to the debate, or am I merely self-promoting?' - Now go away and don't do it again...

Dixon

So lets get this ctraight Mike, you are saying its "neurotic" to not like having upwards of eight thousand randomnly aimed missiles fired at you?

davidka

A magnificently lucid article which illustrates the fact that those cultures who have not destroyed their beliefs in Judeo Christian morality may be the only ones left who can defend themselves against Islamic jihad.
In spite of the BBC and the spokesmen of the FO and the neo Marxist elites, people are beginning to understand the onslaught we all face and that Israel's problems are the ones we are soon to face in the west.
How these people are educating themselves is a mystery to me since the press censors the very idea that we are facing years of struggle to eliminate the threats as islamophobia.
Since 911 there have been more than 12,000 Islamic jihad brutal attacks . It seems that only those which the press consider unavoidable reporting have been addressed and then every effort made to avert the blame from islamic extremism towards easy targets- those that do not fight back.
The recent attempts to insinuate that the myriads of Islamist terrorist attacks are random or not linked is an example of a falsehood which would have been generally accepted ten year ago. today, it simply exposes the sayer as a snaked tongued propagandist.
The alliances between government elites and the press in subverting public opinion for their hidden agendas are now coming up against a public far more educated than they were a decade ago. The BBC is losing the battle on its own soil and that is worth celebrating.

Edward in the USA

After reading how many people in the UK despise the BBC, al-beeb, for its warped, marxist, "progressively blind" views on world events, I don't know why the BBC should be permitted to broadcast their swill in the US on the various NPR (National Public Broadcasting) radio stations.

Maybe Amercicans should boycott NPR stations that broadcast the BBC "News".

Augustus

The popular press coverage of the Israeli offensive against the Hamas terrorists, as well as the extreme antipathy towards Israel by commentators, Western academics, and reporters is itself a reflection of the larger moral corruption that endangers, not only Israel, but the whole of Western civilisation. It is also the pinnacle of irrationality. To hate in this way the only country in the Middle East with the rule of law, human rights, and political freedom; respected in ways impossible to duplicate in Muslim Arab countries - all hard-won achievements which Westerners take for granted - is utter madness.

In this mythical paradigm, Israel is a neo-colonial, neo-imperialist minion of capitalism. an outpost of Western agression and exploitation of dark-skinned Third world 'other' groups, whose lands are heralded to have been 'stolen' and whose peoples have been 'displaced'. All the dysfunctions of Western society, such as racism and Xenophobia are expressed in the ways that Israel treats its victims. And Muslim terrorism is dismissed as only the understandable response on the part of those unfortunates subjected to this oppression, and who lack only the resources to fight back. They must be forgiven if they happen to be caught up in this unfair 'cycle of violence', the prime mover and culprit of which is Israel.

The very term 'palestinian' is really the Latin term for 'philistine', and its current usage has been neatly contrived as political propaganda whose purpose is only to obscure historical fact. Just as the Romans had attempted to erase the Jewish nation, the Arab world realized that it could not defeat Israel militarily, so it cast the war against Israel in terms that would appeal to Western ideals -as a struggle of national self-determination. An ideal, by the way, which is alien to Islamic history and ideology. Now those 'wretched Palestinian refugees', who were in fact a creation of the very Arab states who refused to integrate their brother Arabs into their own nations, became icons of suffering conveniently used to undermine Israel's legitimacy in the eyes of those addled Westerners brainwashed by noble savage multiculturalism and trite Marxist critique of capitalist imperialism.

This failure of Western moral and historical intelligence is what represents the greatest danger to Israel's survival, as it also exposes the fatal weakness of Western society; that of a loss of confidence in the very values and beliefs that have created those ideals of freedom and human rights, without which life itself is intolerable.

Vision Aforethought

@DavidKA: "The BBC is losing the battle on its own soil and that is worth celebrating." Are you sure about this? Even my own friends believe all the liberal pap and lies. Those who get it (such as the enlightened on this here blog) are alas simply preaching to the converted. It is turning the majority of public opinion around that will nobble the BBC. Thing is, how, before it's too late?
(I just watched tonights episode of around the world in 80 Faiths, and it was so anti-Jewish it was palpable! Focusing on negative aspects entirely. No wonder some drunk Jews celebrating Purim splashed vodka all over the TV crew!

Cheers!

(On the subject of the program tonight on BBC 2, who is that very opinionated long haired chap? What happened to unbiased investigative program making with professional presenters without a chip on their shoulders? It was so shallow and dumbed down. No wonder there's so much hate.)

r camillo

to the critics of levins brilliant article i can only quote the end of herbert spencers famous lines on ignorance...."contempt prior to investigation"

Mike

james Murphy: You're wrong....you are the 'new boy on the block'. I've been dueling with phil, for example, for the last couple of years.....sort of....read his 05:47pm..... this will give you some idea of what he's been reduced to. The serious point I'm trying to get at is this....Do Palestinians, under the brutal heel of Occupation for so many years, have the same rights as anyone else to experience similar neuroses? Not for a single minute would I wish to compare the scale of the suffering of the Jewish people down the centuries with what has happened over only the last 60 years to the Palestinians, but using phil's phraseology,...'they were Palestinians....and they were to be slaughtered' Same difference?

Kerry

Ishmael is still persecuting Jacob; it will never cease as long as satan is god of this world. But I am with the Jews simply because they do have God on their side. the land is rightly theirs, God gave it to them. This same God who delivers will not abandon His ancient people, but we must remain constant in prayer for this is a spiritual battle. And we must take seriously the Biblical command to bind the evil one daily in the name of Jesus Christ, for God committed the government of the world to man, and only through man will He act, not of necessity, but by His choice. In the end, as the Book makes it clear, the situation on earth will deteriorate further and further until judgement must fall, but in the mean time we must fight to overcome darkness and maintain as best we can, peace.

Irina

amazing insight. as always. :)
thanks Melanie

Penny

Mike - I'm afraid I have no idea what it is that you are trying to say, nor in what sense it impacts on Melanie.

Levin's thesis was indeed about Freud, but its title was 'Historical perspectives and Unconscious Fantasy in Psychotherapy'. In addtion to being a psychiatrist, Levin also holds a PHd in history from the University of Princeton.

The thrust of Levin's work was to take an historical perspective on Freud, investigating his work in the context of the times of which they were a part and his progress within the medical restrictions he experienced because of those times.

An historical perspective is, well, a work of historical import and, in this case, written by someone qualified in both history and psychiatry.

In my finals I had to write about Freud. Would you - without reading a single word of it, much less its conclusions, assume it was about nothing but neuroses?!!!
I would suggest you read a little more about Freud.

In respect of the other work you cite - again, I think you need to read it. I think you'll then realise that you have rather shot yourself in the foot.

Penny

Mike - having seen your later post I think your earlier one was a confusion. It was impossible to know where you were going with it, giving the citations you mention and the specific neuroses.

Levin's work on 'Occupations under Seige', is about the manner in which Israel behaves in a self-abasing manner as a result of Jewish persecution throughout the ages.

I have read a post - it might be here - where someone is calling on Israel to issue public statements about its position. To do something about the biased reporting. To correct the false assumptions so many hold about Israel. It rarely does so.

What Levin suggests is that Israel has a national identity that has absolutely nothing to do with most of the neuroses you mention - hysteria, pyromania, OCD, and so on.

Instead, it portrays Israel more as a victim of its own history and deluding itself with regard to the malevolent intentions of its enemies.

Frank P

Augustus: such rationality is lost on Melanie's critics of course, but I do find your oases of limpid logic within the commentary of this blog very refreshing, unlike the tracts of desert whence our trolls despatch their poison.

May I also mention that Gavin Esler accused a BBC executive of being biased in favour of Israel on Newsnight tonight! The shock to my system caused me to completely blank out for the remainder of the programme and Newsnight Review thereafter. My dear wife informs that she is glad that I missed Kirsty and her sidekicks as I would probably have been ASBOed for screaming obscenities at the TV, even though we have very effective double glazing and sound proof doors (and understanding neighbours). By the time I had gotten over the shock of Esler's comment I had completely forgotten the context of the idiotic remark. I can only hope that Melanie watched the item and deals with it as only she can. I cannot risk watching it again lest the repeat causes a transient ischaemmic attack - something I have to guard against.

Penny

Mike - I mis-read 'thesis' and cited Levin's book.

However, this in now way alters the substance of my posts.

a) without reading the thesis and its conclusions, it's impossible to tell what direction it took, or how it viewed Freud's work. The title is rather ambiguous and appears to be only a study - it may not necessarily be an opinion/agreement.

b)The 'neuroses' aspect of your posts still seem skewed to me. I can't see where 'Oslo Syndrome' has a bearing on the Palestinians?

bru

3 Israeli civilians killed by Hamas. One Israeli soldier killed by Hamas.

Well over 1000 civilians killed by Israel.

I honestly don't know how you people sleep at night.

I really don't.

Alex, Israel

Melanie,
Before I saw your blog, and following the propaganda I observe on most news channels (including coming from a substantial number of Israeli commentators), I started to fear the ideas and the moral principles upon which my state was built have no longer any value or supporters in the West.

I was so wrong.

For the material presented here, clearly and coherently, for the insightful reference to SANE analysis from the academia or the media, for the logic presented in the article and comments - THANK YOU.

Mike

Penny: I haven't read the thesis you refer to, but my understanding is that Kenneth Levin received his history PhD from Princeton University based on a thesis on Freud and is the author of 'The Psychology of Populations under Chronic Siege'. It is this work that I'm dwelling upon since it has opened up for me a whole new perspective on trying to understand the deep divide between Jewish intellectuals..... see aish.com and Jonathan Rosenblum's 'Hostile to Israel'.

Since I'm not Jewish, and certainly don't have the intellectual reach you obviously have, and since I don't have any emotional, cultural or religious attachment to Israel, it's very difficult for me to fully understand this dilemma of the Jewish people. Hence, why I am unable to come to terms with a writer like Melanie who must wake up day after day, week in, week out, finding it necessary to justify to the world, in the manner she does, why Zionist Israel does what it does, and why all Jews should never flinch in their total unquestioned support no matter what.......and this, without ever considering for one moment, the justified rights of the people it is oppressing.

Since I can see plainly her phobias, her obsessiveness,her anxieties.....reading what Kenneth Levin has to say, is this a form of 'neuroses', and is it this which affects the majority of the Jewish people at large?

Since I'm seeking enlightenment, I'm not looking for an argument and stand to be corrected. Perhaps you can help.

DinaG

Bru - i realize that you are obviously the 'type' you goes for quantity over quality. the life of 1 individual is EVERYTHING! let me put it in context - what if it was your life? what if it was your mother or your son?? do you not understand that every life counts - saying that people have no right of self defense unless enough of them die is disgusting in the extreme. since you're on high horses - from your view i suggest you look up how many Palestinians have died at the hand of other palenstinians and arabs... the numbers are much higher so maybe its all okay then??

Derek Blades

As a newcomer to this site I have been amazed at the scorn and even hatred directed at the BBC for its alleged anti-Israel stance. I am a regular listener to, and watcher of, BBC news broadcasts and during Israel's invasion of Gaza I concluded that the BBC was showing undue deference to the official Israeli interpretation of events.

Luckily I have access to Al Jazeera in English and this is now my preferred source of news from the Middle East. I understand that the English version of Al Jazeera is not widely available in the United States and this may account for some of the alarming anti-Arab sentiments expressed by several of your bloggers. Arabs are our fellow human beings and deserve the same respect as any other ethnic group.

Archbishop Cranmer

Ben Bradshaw MP has said the BBC must stand up to Israeli authorities.

He seems to be under the impression that the BBC has been biased towards Israel throughout the Gaza conflict. He has been joined by other members of the Government in putting pressure upon the corporation to broadcast a charity appeal for Gaza.

At present, the BBC (along with ITV and SKY) is refusing to show an appeal by the Disasters Emergency Committee who wanted to run TV and radio appeals to help raise funds for people in need of food, shelter and medicines ‘as a result of Israel's military action in the Palestinian area’. The charity is an umbrella organisation for several major aid charities, including Oxfam, Red Cross, CAFOD, TEAR Fund, Islamic Relief and Save the Children.

The BBC is citing its commitment to impartiality as the reason for refusing to broadcast the appeal.

Mr Bradshaw, a former BBC journalist, said this it was ‘an inexplicable decision’ and that the appeal to impartiality is ‘completely feeble’.

Cranmer is inclined to agree with Mr Bradshaw to this extent – the BBC has been pathologically biased at so many levels on so many occasions (pro-EU, pro-global warming, anti-Conservative, pro-Blair, anti-Israel, pro-Obama, anti-McCain) that an appeal to impartiality over a charity broadcast is distinctly hollow. The BBC Director General Mark Thompson is concerned that the appeal ‘might jeopardise the public's confidence in the BBC's impartiality’. And the BBC's chief operating officer, Caroline Thomson, is concerned that such appeals should be made ‘without affecting and impinging on the audience's perception of our impartiality’.

Too late, Mr Thompson and Ms Thomson. That confidence was jeopardised decades ago, at least when a decision was made to recruit BBC staff solely through the pages of The Guardian. And any residual confidence that may have survived has been destroyed through the recent sagas of fixed phone-ins or the crude antics of ‘talented’ stars. And the concern with the ‘perception of impartiality’ is a ruse, for there has been no such concern over so very many issues of global importance, and the ‘facts’ have chronically been subsumed to the vague imaginings and rhetorical rants of its journalists’ Leftish, ultra-liberal obsessions.

If the BBC were ever to report some 'pro-Israel' facts, they would have to reveal that Israel is not the 'artificial state' it is so frequently referred to as being, but a wholly legitimate state founded by the international community in 1947. The view that this land belongs to the Arabs is also erroneous, since sizeable Jewish communities have lived in both the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) and Gaza for millennia. As for Israel's 'aggression' and 'military action', the BBC might consider that many of the Palestinian sick and wounded are presently being treated in Israeli hospitals. And many Palestinians have been fleeing to Israel in order to escape Hamas oppression for years. And Cranmer cannot recall hearing from the BBC the condemnation of Hamas which was clearly articulated by some prominent Arab nations. By being anti-Zionist, the BBC is being anti-Israel; by being anti-Israel, it is being anti-Semitic. By refusing to refer to 'Islamic fundamentalist terrorism', or to the professed faith of Gaza's terrorists, it is shrouding the immense suffering of Israelis (of all faiths and none) in a cloak of relativist obfuscation.

But it is, in any case, no business of the Government to apply pressure upon the BBC to reconsider its position on this broadcast. There may be, as the Development Secretary opines, ‘great human suffering still taking place in Gaza’, but so there is in Darfur and the Congo. Indeed, the suffering there is far greater, and Mr Alexander ought also to be concerned with their common humanity, not simply that of the Gazans.

Before Mr Bradshaw dismisses the BBC’s judgement as ‘flawed’, ‘weak’, ‘nervous’ or ‘biased, he might just consider that these are the very attributes which have helped to keep him in a job for 11 years.

If, as he says, the BBC ought ‘to stand up to the Israeli authorities occasionally’, then a fortiori should the BBC stand up to Labour’s authorities – just occasionally.

Dave

Kerry. Fortunately God doesn't exist. So let's not refer to fairy stories when trying to sort out this wretched situation.

phil

James Murphy to quote Mike"I've been dueling with phil, for example, for the last couple of years.."--- that is the state of his mind !-the truth --I have been trying to knock some sense into his head , the opposite of that implanted by fisk -FAILED MISERABLY:)

phil

- bru ---- MUCH BETTER THAN I WOULD IF HAMAS HAD THEIR WAY AND KILLED THE LOT OF US WHICH IS THEIR STATED INTENTION AND WHY IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO MAKE PEACE-PLEASE READ THEIR CHARTER

phil

Mike if you stopped calling the land of Israel "ZIONIST" you would begin to get to the root of your problem -I have explained to you time and again what it,s meaning is, but you would rather use it to get your hackles up like a name calling child in the playground -I do not need a degree on psychoanalysis to see that .Its very simple really ,the inhabitants of that land wish to live in peace with its neighbours unfettered by the need to defend itself from your "victims"attacks-now if you can arrange that you will not find it necessary to keep writing in the style that you stubbornly use -you could even visit ,which of course you never have .maybe with luck Penny will have more chance than me of unlocking your mind -go Penny .

david lynn

bru, I'm sorry this difference in numbers upsets you. But try to be fair, don't forget the 2 years of joy and satisfaction you had when Palestinians were rocketing Israeli women and children.

Ted Crilley

MIKE MIKE!

For goodness sake Mike. Schindler’s List was on last night - get a copy - go watch it. Hollywood it may be but all the visceral reminders are there. The reminders of how POWERLESS we all became. That was with relatively strong patriotic leaders in Government and a majority of patriotic people with their national identity and their sense of right and wrong intact. Forget about propaganda issues on all sides remember how decent law abiding peoples were overrun by circumstances caused by human goodness being manipulated and turned on its head by maniacal terrorising power freaks.

Only 70 years ago! All that suffering and sacrifice for what? Western governance slithering around in a swamp of sloppy soppy self indulgent vain self importance. So frighteningly WET that it has lost its courage and gut instinct to maintain the strong uncomfortable difficult unpopular boundaries necessary to stop anything like that happening again. Freud aint gonna help anyone much when it all kicks off mate. But then I suppose there are and will continue to be so many people sheltering in this cowardly obfuscating mire they won’t even notice when it does and it will all be over by the time they do come up from the swamp and check whether there is any decent measure of freedom and safety left! DISGRACEFUL.

phil

Archbishop Cranmer where on earth have you been hiding -that piece was on a par with anything received from Kate A -and I have no higher praise than that .

Penny

Hi Mike

Thanks for your reply. Of course I'm happy to engage in a debate and not an argument - although I doubt that I'm an authority on enlightenment!

I would have to say - respectfully - that to 'diagnose' a person you have never met as having phobias, neuroses and so on, is perhaps unwise! There's a huge difference between neurosis and passion. Also, Mike, I don't see that your claim that Melanie 'wakes up day after day, week in, week out' writing and justifying Israel's position is valid, or even true.
Yes, Melanie is focusing on Israel at the moment - but hasn't that also been true for almost every TV station and newspaper around the world? How many journalists and correspondants have you heard giving forth on the matter of Israel, Gaza and Hamas in recent weeks? I honestly fail to see your argument here.

The unfortunate thing is that almost all of these journalists and TV stations have presented an extremely one-sided view and, because Joe public has very little understanding of the Middle East and its recent history, they are not necessarily being given all the facts with which to fully engage with the matter. This may well have some serious consequences for us all.

Israel/Gaza to one side - I am deeply concerned at the bias I am witnessing. Anyone who gives a damn about the UK and its direction should worry because the question must be asked 'In what other ways are we being misled?'

But - back to Israel/Gaza. As my husband's family is from Egypt (booted out during the Jewish and Christian ethnic cleansing which began in the 50's)I have taken an interest in the Middle East, have lived there and I have also made it my business to fully investigate the subject - on both sides. There is absolutely no point in taking a 'side' without a full understanding of all other perspectives - why fool yourself?

The worry is, there are many people who do not seek a genuine understanding of the matter but have knee-jerk reactions to the situation as it is presented by the media. I tend to find these people are either very trusting and believe the media must be true (because they live in a free society, don't they?) or they are people who already have an inner template which causes them to respond in a certain way to a given stimulus. They have no real interest in investigating the realities, preferring instead to cling onto their opinion. Or, if they do, they seek evidence which supports their current perspectives whilst overlooking that which does not. In psychological terms, this isn't unusual because we internalise our opinions, they become a part of who we are and to change a view that has been long-held is personally challenging.

Jewish people are responding now not from a neurotic standpoint, or because they blindly support Israel or because they aren't willing to challenge their own long-held viewpoint, but because of the bias and the hypocrisy. And of course, the knowledge that prior persecutions have begun in much the same way.

In terms of hypocrisy, Mike, it is quite amazing to see the struggles going on around the world going unchallenged - while Israel never fails to get itself popped under a microscope for far, far less than say, the Congo. Doesn't anyone care about those people?

It is also amazing for those who know something of the Middle East to comprehend the following and understand quite why the world constantly demonises Israel:

How many protests about Kuwait ethnically cleansing 400k Palestinians in one day? In the Arab world? In the UN?

How many protests about Jordan killing 20,000 Palestinians in one day? In the Arab world? In the UN?

How many protests about Syria killing 20,000 MB Palestinians in one day? In the Arab world? In the UN?

How many protests about Russia killing 20,000 (to really well over 100,000) in Chechnya? In the Arab world? In the UN via resolutions?

How many protests about Egypt killing 40,000 in Yemen with gas in one day? In the Arab world? In the UN?

How many & magnitude of protests about Saddam gassing hundreds of thousands of Shia and Kurds? In the Arab world? In the UN?

How many protests about Lebanon killing thousands of Palestinians in the 80s (by command of Syria via Amal) and recently (against fatah al Islam)? In the Arab world? In the UN?

Where have all the humanitarians been, Mike? Where are the demonstrations and protests? Why, when Israel, a democracy surrounded by nations hostile to its existence, retaliates, does the world jump in outrage when it hardly bats an eyelid when others do worse? Why the neuroses about Israel?

Well, I could go on but I hope you may begin to get my drift! For Jewish people to react to this unfathomable bias is surely natural? It has absolutely nothing to do with 'Oslo Syndrome'

I'm not one for knee-jerk reactions and since Iraq I have learned the media is far from reliable. The direction it is leading us into in respect of Israel is deeply worrying for all of us - not just Jews. I have just spent over two years researching a matter not a million miles away from the topic we are discussing and I am extremely worried about the UK's future. I would urge you to put aside any biases you may have and do the same.

James Christie

The hamas death cult seels victimhood. They put their own people in harms way. They would happily see thousands more killed so long as they succed in their glorious Jihad. bru do you get yet , or will you ever get it.

Mjolnir

Dave: you claim, with the absurdly authoritative certainty of secular humanists everywhere, that God does not exist. Can you please provide a conclusive proof of your claim? If not, I shall be forced to consider you as just another ignorant atheist idiot. Thank you.

Steve bronfman

bru- first, you're accepting Palestinian casulty figures at face value. Palestinians have been known to exagerate figures before eg jenin (1500 revised to 55). An Italian paper yesterday reported the actual number is more like 700 mostly Hamas fighters. Also these are Hamas figures (a totalitarian regime) but more importantly what percentage of the dead are Hamas fighters? Where did you get the figure 1000 civilians? Israel says at least 700 Hamas fighters were killed. Since Hamas don't wear uniforms and purposely hide in populated areas it's east for them to claim they're civilians dying just like in the claims 300 children died when you'll find the majority are actually 16 to 17 year old hAmas fighters. You will notice the BBC never mentios what percentage of those killed are Hamas fighters presumably in order to imply all the dead are innocent bystanders undermining israel legitimate self defense. Also, it's been reported Hamas has killed 100 fatah or Palestinian "colaberators" but the BBC doesn't report this as a percentage of the statistics further implying all dead are innocent and all killed by Israel. Given this unfair reporting if your only source of info is the British press it's understandable you would cast Israel so badly. However, second, numbers killed don't equate with who is right anyway. For instance in ww2 hardly any us cnvilians died while 100,000s of Japanese civilians died but no one would argue against Americas moral supremacy in that war given japan attack on pearl harbour and brutal occupation of china and the pacific resulting in 30 million murdered by the japanese.

Huw Thornton

@Phil -

Stick with it! With persistence we might be able to convince even the most stubborn people in this world.

@ Mike

You wrote above:

"Since I'm not Jewish, and certainly don't have the intellectual reach you obviously have, and since I don't have any emotional, cultural or religious attachment to Israel, it's very difficult for me to fully understand this dilemma of the Jewish people."

I'm not sure what you meant by the reference to the dilemma. I'm always amazed though by acquaitances of mine who can't accept that the Israeli population can feal any fear, or even any real sense of threat, from surrounding groups who are hell-bent on killing them. I don't go all the way by any means with Kenneth Levin's thesis, and probably a lot of Israelis wouldn't either, but it's sometimes a good thing to put ourselves in the shoes of other people (in our case, the Israelis) to understand why reasonable people in Israel and elsewhere can view recent events very differently from the way in which they're mostly talked about here in the UK.

Archbishop Cranmer

Mr Phil,

His Grace is not in hiding. It is simply that The Spectator will not admit him into full communion.

Roland

As ametter of interest Archbishop Cramner(!) - would you object to the inhabitants of Gaza receiving medical aid?

All those here in a state of willful denial might wish to check out the collation of Gaza childrens's experiences in today's Guardian. Yep - I know that source will probably enable you to continue to evade the truth about the results of the IDF's actions. I However, in the vain hope soem of you might open your eyes and hearts, and reconnect with basic morality ....

logdon

Archbishop Cranmer
January 24th, 2009 9:25am

I see that the MCB has also decided to join the attack. No surprise there! This is the group which worships at the feet of Syed Abul A'ala Mawdudi. Here's a taster from the 'great scholar' (Iqbal Sacranie description on John Ware's MCB Panorama). The most cursary of reading will reveal a supremacist, totalitarian mindset which would, given half the chance, eliminate or make dhimmified slaves of us all. Now try to imagine if anyone in the west were to talk of supporting a similar racist leitmotiv of total global colonisation? However it seems like this one way street of ambition in eliminating all traces of non Islamic faith from the Earth has found it's start point in Israel where Hamas is dedicated to the liquidation of the 'Zionist Entity'. Be afraid. Israel goes, and we are all in the sights.

"Mawdudi believed that the sovereignty of God (hakimiya) and the sovereignty of the people are mutually exclusive.[20] Therefore, he declared Islamic democracy to be the antithesis of secular Western democracy which transfers hakimiya(God's sovereignty) to the people.[21]
[edit]Jihad
Because Islam is all-encompassing, Maududi believed that the Islamic state should not be limited to just the "homeland of Islam". It is for all the world. 'Jihad' should be used to eliminate un-Islamic rule and establish this Islamic state:
Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere on the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and programme of Islam regardless of the country or the Nation which rules it. The purpose of Islam is to set up a State on the basis of its own ideology and programme, regardless of which Nation assumes the role of the standard bearer of Islam or the rule of which nation is undermined in the process of the establishment of an ideological Islamic State. It must be evident to you from this discussion that the objective of Islamic 'Jihad' is to eliminate the rule of an un-Islamic system and establish in its stead an Islamic system of State rule. Islam does not intend to confine this revolution to a single State or a few countries; the aim of Islam is to bring about a universal revolution.[22]
[edit]Non-Muslims
The rights of non-Muslims are limited under Islamic state as laid out in Maududi's writings. Although non-Muslim "faith, ideology, rituals of worship or social customs" would not be interfered with, non-Muslims would have to accept Muslim rule, as according to Maududi, non-Muslim rule was "evil".
Islamic 'Jihad' does not recognize their right to administer State affairs according to a system which, in the view of Islam, is evil. Furthermore, Islamic 'Jihad' also refuses to admit their right to continue with such practices under an Islamic government which fatally affect the public interest from the viewpoint of Islam."[23]
Non-Muslims would also have to pay a special tax known as jizya. This tax is applicable to all able adult Non-Muslims, except old and women, who do not render military service. Those who serve in military are exempted. It must be noted that all adult Muslim men are subject to compulsory military service, whenever required by the Islamic State. Jizya is thus seen as a protection tax payable to the Islamic State for protection of those those Non-Muslims adult men who do not render military service.[citation needed]
Maududi believed that copying cultural practices of non-Muslims was forbidden in Islam, having
very disastrous consequences upon a nation; it destroys its inner vitality, blurs its vision, befogs its critical faculties, breeds inferiority complexes, and gradually but assuredly saps all the springs of culture and sounds its death-knell. That is why the Holy Prophet has positively and forcefully forbidden the Muslims to assume the culture and mode of life of the non-Muslims.[24]"

Raymond Joseph Douglas

Archbishop Cranmer , your piece is of such erudition, insight and knowledge, that our Mel must fear for her job ! Seriously though , well done, your blog item was a pleasure to read !

Dixon

Mike:"Since I can see plainly her phobias, her obsessiveness,her anxieties.....reading what Kenneth Levin has to say, is this a form of 'neuroses', and is it this which affects the majority of the Jewish people at large?"

Mike is obviously trying to pretend to knowledge where he displays ignorance. For whilst its easy to makev typos vhere ( I do it all the time ) Mike consistently and repeatedly has used the phrase " A neuroses" which is a dreadful howler when what he is TRYING to say is " a neuroSIS".

Moreover, it is quite clear that Mike hasn't the remotest flying flannel of an idea about what a genuine neurosis actually looks like. I suggest he actually go and read some psychiatric texts before twaddling on about it.

YA

Derek: "Arabs are our fellow human beings and deserve the same respect as any other ethnic group."

First, don't be so categorical -what about Fiji cannibal tribes?

Second, it is not exactly about Arabs. It is about mixture of Arabic fascism, religious fundamentalism and traditionalist order (tribalism). You want it or not but that is how peoples of the Middle East think and behave, (differing only in proportion), and it also spreads to the West.

Dixon

Cranmer et folks: My suspicion is that the BBC decision was based on a lawyers sensible advice that these "relief" organisations nuumber among them at least one that will soon be exposed as a terrorist front outfit. Moreover, that the "relief" will in any eventuality end up being controlled and used by Hamas.

We see here that the recent succesful prosecution in the US of an Islamic "relief" organisation as a front for terrorist fund-raising may have served as a sound warning to them. Moreover, they may not have forgotten the disgusting episode of George Galloways "Mariam Appeal".

What British government ministers say...on almost any topic these days...just demonstrates how divorced from the wider world of current affairs they are.

Dixon

Derek Blades: Arabs are Humans too!

Well, thats what we learned in Chapter One, noone has disputed it...but now we are most of us up to Chapter Umpteen...the plot has developed somewhat!

Does it not ever cross your mind that Arabs are fellow Human beings oppressed by the likes of Hamas?

At the very least, can you not open your mind to the obvious fact that at least half the population of most Arab countries ( women ) are oppressed and exploited by the other portion ( men )?

zchug

A minor point that annoyed me: ebay has got Medical Aid for Palestinians as one of its approved charities.

I qoute form NGO monitor:
Pursuant to Article 23 of the Geneva Convention Israel has no obligation to provide any goods, even minimal humanitarian supplies, if it is "satisfied" that such goods will be diverted or supply of such goods will aid Hamas in its war effort. Israel is also bound by several international treaties restricting the financing and support of terrorism. Provision of goods that ultimately aid Hamas in its terror campaign would place Israel in breach of these legal obligations. As numerous credible accounts have reported, Hamas has diverted supplies from Gaza's civilian population..

So why does ebay support this kind of charity?

Dixon

Mike, as you claim to genuinely "seek enlightenment" I would recommend "The Discovery of The Unconsciou" by Henri F. Ellenberger. I don't recall the publisher off-hand, but its the standard text on the topic in which Freud played only a small part, late in the day. The chapter dealing with Freud begins with his grandfather and father who speculated about the "unconscious" before him.

Psychoanalysis today is anyway regarded as an historical curiosity, still widely practised in the same way that Spiritualism and exorcism are still practised. In the face of reason.

Neorisis can be better understood in terms of Behaviourism. As such, part of the spectrum of natural reaction to unnatural reinforcements that comprise civilised existence.

richard

Unbelievable comments. Obviously I have intruded on a little club of self satisfied delusionists. I wonder how many of you have ever watched a farmer being beaten up and then arrested for peacefully protesting the confiscation of his land, or how many of you have stood beside farmers attempting to harvest their olives whilst rocks were thrown at them by militant settlers. These injustices are the reason for hostility - bring justice and you will bring peace.

Frank P

Archbishop C: A timely intervention which answers my query to Melanie about Gavin Esler's amazing assertion on Newsnight yesterday (vide my 12.53ampost above). I am still gobsmacked of course, but at least this time I was able to assimilate the information having been forewarned, as it were.

It is hoped that it will give heart to those hereabouts who have Israel's and therefore the West's interest at heart. It might also serve to educate the deluded or mischievous who visit here as Hamas/Islamic jihad propagandists, but that is perhaps a vain hope.

Similar sentiments are appropriate to yet another excellent post on you own blog:

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2009/01/real-face-of-hamas-terrorists-murderers.html

I wonder why Gavin Esler didn't ask the BBC executive why this footage was not part of the BBC's news coverage.

Sterling work! Or is that expression of approval now diminished along with our currency as a result of the baneful consequences of this maladministration which seized power in 1997 and which the electorate has repeatedly voted to remain in power or failed to vote against.

Donna Gardier

PHIL I NEED TO GET THIS OFF MY CHEST

Phil I know you mean well but it is irritating that this blog gets so full of your comments. You seem to have turned it into your own soapbox on the back of Melanie’s success as a respected social commentator. I enjoy reading this blog immensely and there are a lot of excellent contributors on here God bless ‘em, which is why I read it so much.

Generally speaking the people who post on here also attract a decent debate from those with different perspectives too which is healthy and equally informative and necessary. You however, (though sometimes getting your points across quite well) on the whole serve as a distraction. I’m sorry to say this but you often spoil the thread of the debate with your inappropriate and rather silly personal approach. I’m sure it must put a lot of people off, and I see this as counterproductive to Melanie’s cause. You I fear feed the feeble critics and so called trolls and happily serve them overly personal and overly emotional reactions thereby giving them recognition and feedback they do not deserve. This bolsters them and gives ill-deserved encouragement to their vacuous argument that this debating forum is full of neurotic windbags. You use the blog as a platform for creating illusionary friends and self-styled cliques and deem those who be worthy or unworthy of your praise in your self appointed role as self elected group leader and behaviour monitor. Sorry I had to say it. It’s been simmering since your ridiculous casting of some of the bloggers on here in an imaginary pantomime. I can vaguely remember myself desperately trying to ignore it during a thread which I think I’m correct in saying was around issues about euthanasia!

In a nutshell if you want to help countermand a lot of destructive misguided social engineering that seems to have gone on for the last 40 years or so without a counterbalance (and I think you do) please exercise a little more objectivity. Don’t water down the effectiveness of Melanie or the people who support her so well on this blog. Speaking for myself as a grateful reader, (and someone who is listening and learning rather than someone who has enough skill knowledge or eloquence to contribute very much) I doubt I’m alone in thinking that it would be better from that viewpoint if the blog wasn’t becoming increasingly about you!

Adam B.

Derek Blades, (who thinks it's unfair Hamas doesn't have more weapons) thinks the BBC is pro-Israel (sorry?), and likes Al Jazeera, the news organization which threw a party for the terrorist Samir Kuntar, the "man" who repeatedly smashed a three year old girl's head against a rock until she was dead,(having murdered her father in front of her first. But he was a Palestinian, and his victims were Israeli, so that's OK Derek). Yes, Al Jazeera, which broadcasts every hate speech from Al Qaeda, yes true impartiality Derek. Says a lot about you.

Adam B.

Mike, you consistently show that you don't know the meaning of the word "Zionism". It isn't a dirty word, no matter how hard you try. The Jews are entitled to self-determination, a right you don't question about any other people. What about the real oppression of Jews and Christians in the Islamic world, doesn't that bother you at all?

Joe

Melanie - I've just finished reading your book Londonistan - a fantastic analysis of London today. What I just can't grasp is the unholy alliance of the radical left with militant Islam, do these leftist radicals really think they will be able to contain the demons they have helped to unleash on the west? How do they possibly think they can reign in these radicals once they have achieved their goals of bringing down the conservative west? The average punter in the street seems to know what is going on in the UK and the greater west, but for the most part can't find a voice within the liberal media.

I know a lot of people are turning to the BNP, who to their credit seem to be the only political force in the UK to understand what is going on with radical Islam. Unfortunately they seem to be overrun with racist nationalists who would just as soon turn on the Jews and any other minority once they have dealt with the radical Muslims. I guess perhaps the best wakeup call for the Tories would be a loss to labour in 2009 with the BNP attracting 10-15% of the vote. That just might shock the Tories into getting serious about the creeping islamisation of the UK and Europe. But 4 more years of labour? I fear there wouldn't be a country left by then!

Huw Thornton

@ Donna

I must respectfully disagree with you about phil. I for one really appreciate reading his take on the issues raised in this blog. If sometimes he writes capitalised text, he comes over as shouting - but then these are really emotive subjects. phil has a sense of humanity which - it must be said - not all contributors to this blog share.

Dave

Arbishop: "By being anti-Zionist, the BBC is being anti-Israel; by being anti-Israel, it is being anti-Semitic."
A statement that is both offensive and stupid.

phil

Donna Gardier- wow you certainly got that off your chest and you are entitled to your view -I am no leader.I just say my piece and will continue to do so .I have a view which I usually put politely even if passionately -if you want to criticise those that come here to cause problems ,you are welcome to join in without any invitation from me .I see you are objecting to me applauding other posters opinions ,well I wish more people acknowledged the hard work some put in here ,no one knows who we are so it can hardly be an ego ride and you do not have to read any particular post .--------
You mentioned one particular blog about euthanasia where I well remember writing encouragement to a man in pain and scolding some incredibly insensitive and uncaring posters.if that offends you .sorry but you will have to put up with it ,because that is what I do and I will never stop .Some come here to tell untruths and I have learned never to ignore them lest people think there is substance to their posts and occasionally I am sarcastic but only to those I believe deserve their put down You have your choice pass over my posts .its your choice ,better still write more often and disagree with me whenever you like -you do not offend me either as your comments were polite and well put .

phil

Penny may I say somewhat in fear of Donna,s disapproval,:) that your post was magnificent and today I have been privileged to read both your remarks and those of Archbishop-I have tried for years with Mike ,not as eloquently as you nor with the facts you have researched ,but I have never budged his trust in fisk ,I am afraid Mike is hooked ,but just maybe you have put a chink in his armour -hope so

phil

Huw Thornton thank you that was very touching .If I want to criticise I have to learn to take it ,so its ok with me , regards

phil

Richard lets cut to the chase here -if I agreed with your criticism ,which I do, would you like me ? Do you really believe that brutalism is a Jewish way of life ?it is not possible to control every freak that has been circumcised just as you cannot control every freak that has been baptised .our culture is one of kindness charity and respect as is Christianity ,so please do not paint us all with the same brush as those that offend us too.

Now if nobody minds I am going to watch the rest of utd bashing spurs ,I am exhausted

Straydingo

Donna,

I have to agree with Huw as we all have different backgrounds and approaches to the way we express ourselves - although I think you raise some good points that I believe we all should consider when posting our thoughts on a blog.

logdon

I see that the MCB has also decided to join the attack. No surprise there! This is the group which worships at the feet of Mawdudi. Here's a taster from the 'great scholar' (Iqbal Sacranie description on John Wares MCB Panorama). The most cursary of reading will reveal a supremacist, totalitarian mindset which would, given half the chance, eliminate or make dhimmified slaves of us all. Now try to imagine if anyone in the west were to talk of supporting a similar racist leitmotiv of total global colonisation? However it seems like this one way street of ambition in eliminating all traces of non Islamic faith from the Earth has found it's start point in Israel where Hamas is dedicated to the liquidation of the 'Zionist Entity'. Be afraid. Israel goes, and we are all in the sights.

"Mawdudi believed that the sovereignty of God (hakimiya) and the sovereignty of the people are mutually exclusive.[20] Therefore, he declared Islamic democracy to be the antithesis of secular Western democracy which transfers hakimiya(God's sovereignty) to the people.[21]
[edit]Jihad
Because Islam is all-encompassing, Maududi believed that the Islamic state should not be limited to just the "homeland of Islam". It is for all the world. 'Jihad' should be used to eliminate un-Islamic rule and establish this Islamic state:
Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere on the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and programme of Islam regardless of the country or the Nation which rules it. The purpose of Islam is to set up a State on the basis of its own ideology and programme, regardless of which Nation assumes the role of the standard bearer of Islam or the rule of which nation is undermined in the process of the establishment of an ideological Islamic State. It must be evident to you from this discussion that the objective of Islamic 'Jihad' is to eliminate the rule of an un-Islamic system and establish in its stead an Islamic system of State rule. Islam does not intend to confine this revolution to a single State or a few countries; the aim of Islam is to bring about a universal revolution.[22]
[edit]Non-Muslims
The rights of non-Muslims are limited under Islamic state as laid out in Maududi's writings. Although non-Muslim "faith, ideology, rituals of worship or social customs" would not be interfered with, non-Muslims would have to accept Muslim rule, as according to Maududi, non-Muslim rule was "evil".
Islamic 'Jihad' does not recognize their right to administer State affairs according to a system which, in the view of Islam, is evil. Furthermore, Islamic 'Jihad' also refuses to admit their right to continue with such practices under an Islamic government which fatally affect the public interest from the viewpoint of Islam."[23]
Non-Muslims would also have to pay a special tax known as jizya. This tax is applicable to all able adult Non-Muslims, except old and women, who do not render military service. Those who serve in military are exempted. It must be noted that all adult Muslim men are subject to compulsory military service, whenever required by the Islamic State. Jizya is thus seen as a protection tax payable to the Islamic State for protection of those those Non-Muslims adult men who do not render military service.[citation needed]
Maududi believed that copying cultural practices of non-Muslims was forbidden in Islam, having
very disastrous consequences upon a nation; it destroys its inner vitality, blurs its vision, befogs its critical faculties, breeds inferiority complexes, and gradually but assuredly saps all the springs of culture and sounds its death-knell. That is why the Holy Prophet has positively and forcefully forbidden the Muslims to assume the culture and mode of life of the non-Muslims.[24]"

"In reality Islam is a revolutionary ideology and programme which seeks to alter the social order of the whole world and rebuild it in conformity with its own tenets and ideals. 'Muslim' is the title of that International Revolutionary Party organized by Islam to carry into effect its revolutionary programme. And 'Jihad' refers to that revolutionary struggle and utmost exertion which the Islamic Party brings into play to acheive this objective."
--Sayeed Abdul A'la Maududi, Jihad in Islam p8

"Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere on the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and programme of Islam regardless of the country or the Nation which rules it. The purpose of Islam is to set up a State on the basis of its own ideology and programme, regardless of which Nation assumes the role of the standard bearer of Islam or the rule of which nation is undermined in the process of the establishment of an ideological Islamic State."
--Sayeed Abdul A'la Maududi, Jihad in Islam p9

Steve bronfman

*please excuse spelling typing on iPhone not always easy.

Mike

Penny: Many thanks indeed for the clarity and views expressed in your post. I have indeed been 'enlightened'......the movement starts here!. But seriously, you've given me much food for thought about the Jewish people for which I'm grateful. Please allow me time to absorb and consider what you say.

AisA

To Mjolnir:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The burden of proof is NOT on the person who chooses not to believe. You may believe whatever you choose, but in so doing you must calmly allow others to deny that belief if they wish.

That freedom of thought was expressed admirably by Obama in his inauguration speech when he said that America is "a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus — and non-believers." A brave and true sentiment. And a fact.

In some ways this gets right to the heart of the matter. Was it a religious precept that led to the 'creation' of the state of Israel in that particular part of the world 1948? Because it is difficult to understand why the Jewish people were prepared to accept the very idea of living in such an area - where so many Arabs already lived, a people who historically were enemies of the Jews and the very concept of Israel, unless there was a very compelling reason. Was it a deeply held belief that this was their God-given land and that therefore they were going to go back there no matter what the outcome? Because if that is the case, then they are on very shaky ground, as is anyone who seeks to justify their cause on religious grounds. We have only to look at the atrocities that militant Islam is prepared to commit in the name of their own god to see that.

Finally, to put down to anti-semitism any view that does not support the Jews is simplistic and, frankly, gratuitously inflammatory language. One may be anti-anything, so long as one can produce a reasonable argument. When it becomes irrational blathering, or hate-filled or inciting to genocide, then by all means take offence, and then take action.

Penny, many many thanks for your truly enlightening views.

hadrian

Bru- you wonder how 'we people' supportive in the main of Israel, 'sleep at night'. Well, it's simple- we do not, as yet, face a further Jewish genocide on our hands nor do we have the immediate prospect of being under Islamic rule in the EU and Britain though that is an ever present danger requiring eternal vigilance. Does that make us '-phobic' or xenophobic? No- just facing a growing reality.

Alexandrovich

Donna: bravo. It's the comma where a genitive apostrophe should be that drives me round the bend.

J. Isaacs

My impersonator is at it again at 9.40p.m. He or she doesn't appear to like phil, me, Ben Tsiyon (Ha Rishon) and possibly anyone else with a Jewish name. Just got back from a lovely party myself now the Sabbath is out. Nice to see someone keeping my name in lights, even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Adam B.

Donna, I think that was somewhat harsh. We're not exactly rationed.

Adam B.

Penny, a sublime post. Thank you for crystallizing the issue so remarkably well.

Dixon

richard
January 24th, 2009 3:56pm
Unbelievable comments. Obviously I have intruded on a little club of self satisfied delusionists. I wonder how many of you have ever watched a farmer being beaten up and then arrested for peacefully protesting the confiscation of his land, or how many of you have stood beside farmers attempting to harvest their olives whilst rocks were thrown at them by militant settlers. These injustices are the reason for hostility - bring justice and you will bring peace."

No richard, YOU are the one who is "deluded". Your last assertion says it in volumes.

Dixon

Roland
January 24th, 2009 2:32pm
As ametter of interest Archbishop Cramner(!) - would you object to the inhabitants of Gaza receiving medical aid?
All those here in a state of willful denial might wish to check out the collation of Gaza childrens's experiences in today's Guardian. Yep - I know that source will probably enable you to continue to evade the truth about the results of the IDF's actions. I However, in the vain hope soem of you might open your eyes and hearts, and reconnect with basic morality ...."

NO Roland, I cannot speak for anyone else here, but I don't denuy ANYTHING..I JUST DONT GIVE A DAMN!

As for "basic morality" of which you speak as though it is self-evident, in fact, as I have said here before, THERE IS NO SUCH THING! No God = No MORALITY. It is absurd to talk of one without the other.

NONETHELESS... the "people of Gaza" and the West Bank receive plenty of medical aid in Israeli hospitals. One regular West Bank outpatient who had received extensive reconstreuctive surgery free of charge in an Israeli hospital after her mother had deliberately subjected her to a severe scolding later returned in an attempt to carry out a suicide bombing of said hospital.

Never mind your bleeding heart, open your eyes!

Frank P

J Isaacs

" I suppose there are bad apples in every pile"

Enough to phil a cider tanker! :-)

Jerry

Re Mike: An honest statement:

"Since I'm not Jewish, and certainly don't have the intellectual reach you obviously have, and since I don't have any emotional, cultural or religious attachment to Israel, it's very difficult for me to fully understand this dilemma of the Jewish people."

Why then do you post on this site? Jews are attached to Israel "from time immemorial." Until you have visited with open eyes, you will indeed not understand why our attachment. Jews rebuilt their country from wasteland. It is a beautiful little place with people raising their families and trying to structure a reasonable community. I have personally seen the following occurrences and institutions:

A bus driver refusing to continue driving until "his children" manage to get onto his bus. They were simply his regular passengers.

A bag of cookies left on my doorknob when my family moved into our rented apartment. A dinner invitation followed our thank you note.

A young adult speaking to a man in his seventies or older on a bus. They were not related as far as I knew, but came from the same neighborhood - our adopted neighborhood.

My children and newly arrived Ethiopian youngsters attending the same Hebrew language courses given over the summer to help them to get started in school.

My 14 year old son walking home from school through a deserted national park at night. No fear necessary.

Children who were four and five years old being sent into the street on their own to get to nursery. These same children played independently after school without supervision.

My ten year old insisting on traveling to the heart of Jerusalem with friends to wander about the city. While I had a problem, the parents of his friends had no problem at all. We let him go in the end without negative consequences as far as I can tell.

Collective farms (kibbutzim) where people accept lower personal remuneration for the privilege of living in semi-agricultural setting and raising their children without the disabilities of city life.

A research institution (Weitzman Institute)where housing allowances and stipends suffice so that dedicated scientists can pursue their special fields.

High Schools (Bar Ilan is such an example) where students take meaningful technical courses that prepare them for real life. In the case of Bar Ilan, the youngsters learn electronics and within a year following graduation are to be found in the air force maintaining F-15s and F-16s.

Book fairs, artist exhibitions, music, singing. I will never forget when an Arab farmer came through our neighborhood selling his watermelons. He would sing out his produce and prices. From an apartment building next to ours came an operatic voice mimicking the peddler. It was like a competition, and the peddler's sales were brisk.

There is much that needs improvement in Israel - but the sweetness and normalcy of everyday life makes it a heady place to experience. No one trusts the politicians, but they simply ignore them and go about their lives.

J. Isaacs (Ha gibor)

richard you deserve a song. Apologies to Irving Gordon and the great Nat King Cole.

Unbelievable, that's what you are,/Unbelievable, though near or far,/That's why rich its inconceivable,/That someone so unbelievable/Thinks that I am unbelievable too.
(instrumental break)

Unbelievable, in every way,/And forever more, that's how you'll stay,/That's why rich its inconceivable,/That someone so unbelievable,/Thinks that I am unbelievable too.
(DS al Coda)

phil

Frank P, sorry to disappoint you as it obviously was not J ISAACS .just another of our haters -you manage to write intelligent posts on the same topic as me and are equally prolific and passionate ,nevertheless because I despise your friend "the fragrant one" for what she has written and who seems to have left us,you take every opportunity to write something sarcastic and nasty ,in this case you have found one "ally" the lovely Alexandrovich ,you know the one who consistently attacks our cause -don,t you think it is time to stop this rudeness?,it has only ever served to demean you and bring succour to those that oppose our way of life .If In fact you still wish to continue this nonsense ,you may call me ridiculous,stupid,knows nothing ,whatever but please do not refer to me as a bad apple for supporting the same cause as you ,that was despicable .Donna made her point politely and I answered her in the same vein .

Miranda Rose Smith

The widespread hostility to Israel confirms my long-held suspicion that a great many people are faking when they pretend to be moved by Anne Frank, may the al-mighty avenge her blood.

J. Isaacs (Ha gibor)

Miranda Rose Smith: you are wrong. A great many people are not moved by Anne Frank and are not pretending. Anyway, it's 'holocaust day' on Tuesday so mazel tov and have a nice day.

Roland

So, Dixon proudly states he doesn't 'give a damn' about the suffering of other groups, peoples, 'tribes'.

Eerily reminiscent of other 20th Century ideologies ...

Non-Partisan.

"the genocidal siege being laid against Israel by an axis of evil comprising the Arab and Islamic world plus a galere of western Jew-haters, leftists and anti-Americans – including many Jewish fellow-travellers -- through the malevolent offices of the media house-organs for such anti-Israel bigotry." Melanie have you left anyone out here ? To refer to anyone who disagrees with your views as being part of a genocidal siege is simply disgusting. I can agree with the existence of the state of Israel and its right to self preservation without agreeing with all of its actions as can many people. This does not mean we wish any harm upon the Jewish people. Your constant use of highly emotive and manipulative language to silence and shut down alternative opinions reveals that open discussion is not something you really have any interest in along with many of your bloggers. Extreme partisan thinking only lays the foundations for future war. I am not going to waste any more of my time continuing to read your nonsense or the bloggers who support you !!! Good riddence.

Dixon

Roland
January 25th, 2009 1:13pm
So, Dixon proudly states he doesn't 'give a damn' about the suffering of other groups, peoples, 'tribes'.
Eerily reminiscent of other 20th Century ideologies ..."

No Roland, its not an "ideology", its just a fact of life. Human Nature is not something we choose nor is it susceptible to alteration by fiat. If you dont give a damn, you dont give a damn. And, clearly, YOU, Roland dont give a damn about what Hamas ( a bona fide racial-Nationalist party ) does to Jews, nor what the Ethiopian government does to the residents of Darfur, Southern Thai Muslims do to Buddhists, Kashmiri Nationalists do to Indians, etc, etc, etc...the list is huge. YOU only care about what suits your political agenda.

But, not only that but you are also Human, and "when push comes to shove" or the "proverbial" hits the fan, YOU TOO will only give a damn about your immediate tribe. Its just that you are too self-deluded to be able to admit this of yourself, or maybe because you have never had to face those circumstances.

I am no hero. I declare up front: "I DONT GIVE A DAMN". You and your kind however, Roland, like to pretend that you are some sort of morally distinct meta-species and not merely Human.

Dixon

Regarding the challenge to offer "proof" that God does not exist, I should like to pount out the obvious absurdity in that. As someone else above said, in a longer way, if someone claims that something exists, its up to them to offer the proof.

Otherwise, I could say I believe that the Omnipotent Spaghetti Monster created the universe and challenge anyone who denies this to offer "definitive proof" that it doesnt!

Dixon

And BTW...when I declare "NO GOD = NO MORALITY" I am not actually stating that I don't believe in "God" but that I do not believe in the loving omniscence worshipped by the acolytes of the principal religions.

As far as the morality part of the equation, I used to be a Utilitarian until, reading Mill on the topic...I mean actually at the end of an essay of his ....I had a kind of epiphany. I realised that it was all a load of very well-written, very internally logical and superbly argued twaddle! An immense effort of rationalisation to try to fill in the moral vacuum that is reality as it exists.

I have since retreated to my "Daseine" and taken the view "F@@@" the lot of 'em.

Nonetheless, that won't stop me arguing over issues such as Hamas and their desire to wipe out Israel, because I remain constitutionally intolerant of the inconsistancy and aften downright stupidity of people such as those who support the Arabs. Among whom, those who do not believe in God have no "moral" basis for their passions anyway.

Roland

Succinctly sums up the tone of Mel's blog and its small band of enthusiasts, Non-Partisan!

J. Isaacs (Ha Non-Parmigiano.)

Non-Partisan. Your good-riddance spelling is letting you down. Could it be you that is my unwanted shadow? You too deserve a song. Apologies to the writer and no copywright infringement intended:

Me and my shadow, walking down the avenue,/ Me and my shadow, all alone; my shadow's blue./My shadow really can't spell, smells like Parmigiano cheese/ I don't think I would really want another one of these/ Me and my shadow,/ Non-Pamigiano please.
(DS al Coda)

Yehuda

For 2 thousand years following the loss of Jewish political independence in The Land of Israel, the non-Jewish world would cry, "Go back to your own country, Palestine," to the Jews living in the exile of the Diaspora.
Nowadays the call is, "Get out of Palestine. You stole it."
Is it paranoia to think that possibly many fine, refined, philanthropic folk don't really want the Jews to live either in the former's countries or in their own?

AisA

Yehuda:

Assuming it's NOT paranoia,(and I know you're being largely rhetorical there), I'm genuinely interested what YOU think are the reasons those folk say the things they do.

Melvyn

What the war in Gaza was *really* all about:
http://www.danielgordis.org/Site/Site_ViewDispatches.asp?id=22

Melanie, As this excerpt you've provided clearly shows, this is just the next round in Israel's war of independence. Myself and fellow Israelis have to shout louder and louder every time that we're not going away, we're not giving up, and we will respond with extreme force when attacked.

Louise

Joe, I wholeheartedly agree with you re the BNP and the Conservative Party. I've voted Tory all my life, and remain a paid-up member of the party, but its spinelessness under Cameron and Hague has left me alienated and cynical. On present form, the Labour MP Denis McShane has far more courage and a far better grasp of current reality than any of the Tory wimps.
Re the BBC's refusal to broadcast the Gaza appeal: the odious Gerald Kaufman has waded in to accuse the BBC of bowing to "nasty" elements within the "Israeli lobby". I wonder which "nasty" lobby the BBC was bowing to when it made the documentary "The End of the Affair" (2002) detailing Kaufman's falling out of love with, and into a mindset of vituperative criticism of, the Jewish State.
Let's face it, the BBC has been following an anti-Israel agenda for so long that Mark Thomson's present stance has the feel of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. Personally, I would care not a jot if the BBC did broadcast a humanitarian appeal on behalf of the suffering civilians of Gaza whose lives have been wrecked in this whole ghastly mess. I doubt Israel would either. As its impressive spokesman, Mark Regev, has said often enough, Israel does not regard the ordinary people of Palestine as the enemy but as fellow victims of Hamas terror.
(Perhaps Mark Thomson didn't hear him, over the rants of Paxman, Esler, et al).
What's needed at Al Beeb is not this extraordinarily inappropriate attempt at even-handedness - or should I say at "an alibi"? - but a genuine and effective commitment to impartiality which would see every BBC Mid-East reporter from the execrable Bowen downwards prevented from editorialising and giving their own slanted and detrimental commentary.

phil

Maybe I am missing something here ,but I cannot see what is wrong with an appeal to help the innocent victims,of which there may well be many,It can not be a good reason to say it is impartiality as they proved that was not the case during the conduct of the battle .Many humans are suffering and it is the duty of the rest of us to alleviate that suffering .hamas are obviously a problem as they cannot be trusted but that should not stop us trying to put in food and medicine .Jewish culture itself would demand that we help the sick and injured,the innocent are not our enemies ,even a wounded hamas terrorist would receive treatment in an Israeli hospital .If the money goes astray ,the sin will be with hamas not us ,we at least will have tried to bring comfort to those that need it . I hope Jeremy Bowen and his friends will be made to know the damage they have caused to the the views of compassionate and impartial people .

marvin

Haha. Mel, you have made the Guardian editorial cartoon
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/cartoon/2009/jan/26/bbc-gaza

Mjolnir

To AisA and Dixon:
I agree with you that if someone makes a claim that something exists, it is up to them to offer proof / evidence to back up their claims. However, in this case, I never made any such claim. I was merely responding to an apparently "authoritative" statement, by Dave, that God [definitely] does not exist. Although I realise that it is absurd to demand that he 'prove' his claim, I feel that it is equally absurd for someone to claim that they somehow "know" that God does not exist (the attitude often expressed by secular humanists), and I was merely trying to highlight that absurdity. For the record: I do not believe that all atheists are stupid (on the contrary); I just threw that one in because I am entitled to on the grounds that it is generally deemed acceptable for prominent atheists, like Richard Dawkins, to make bold statements about the 'stupidity' of religious [especially Christian] believers.

KateA

Donna Gardier: Shall we bring back the 'stocks' so you can throw rotten eggs?

You have, of course, metaphorically, just done so at phil. What you appear to 'require' from this blog is conformity. Conformity, God Forbid, as dictated by Donna - the Übermensch.

What arrogance! Ever heard of fascism Donna? In this instance, a state of mind in keeping with the political concept. You present as a dictator with no respect for age, life experience or, the 'natural' camaraderie which emerges amongst people of 'like minds'. I have huge respect for phil's willingness to share all of those things.

Perhaps you will soon require us to submit CVs for your 'assessment' of fitness to partake in this public forum?

If phil is to be 'faulted', it is in the courtesy he extends to megalomaniacs. In contrast, what a nasty, impatient ego you present. Extraordinary that one so superior in her requirement of others has no knowledge of the 'scroll' facility on all PCs and laptops.

PS: Pete, fingers crossed this gets through! Have concluded my posts - four at last count - go astray in the ether because I am a 'night owl'? Seldom have time to respond in daylight hours.

Frank P

Excellent post Louise. A timely round-up.

wrighty

When might we expect Mel's piece in congratulation to "Al Beeb" for bowing to Israeli pressure and not broadcasting the Gaza Appeal ?
Some tome soon surely ?

Frank P

KateA (1.27pm)

Now, now! Surely by the same token of reprimand you are hoist with your own petard? Isn't Donnas's expression of frustration just as valid, or have you an official set of stocks for her, because she happens to have heaped some disapproval on phillibuster - a fan of yours I believe. While I agree about the scroll wheel, I did file Donna's plaintive suggestion under 'pro bon publico'. But as we all know, ya caint please alla the publico alla the time. I thought that it was a very gentle admonition and had it been taken in good spirit could have improved this blog without necessarily fully eradicating phil's undoubted contribution (much of which the very scroll wheel you have mentioned on my little mouse has unfortunately eradicated spontaneously of late). But of course it's naughty to gratuitously defend Donna, when I'm sure she is capable of following through herself. Glad to see you back, though; always enjoy your posts - no reflex scrolling necessary there; are the students driving you back to the blogosphere already?

EthanII

From the Associated Press:

Top EU official: Hamas fully responsible for Gaza war
Jan. 26, 2009
AP

Hamas bears full responsibility for the war in Gaza, a top EU official said Monday in the Strip, calling the group "a terrorist movement."

"At this time we have to also recall the overwhelming responsibility of Hamas," Louis Michel, European Commissioner for Development and Humanitarian Aid, told reporters.

"I intentionally say this here - Hamas is a terrorist movement and it has to be denounced as such," Michel said as he visited the town of Jabalya in northern Gaza.

"Public opinion is fed up to see that we are paying over and over again - be it the [European] commission, the member states or the major donors - for infrastructure that will be systematically destroyed," he said.

Reuters quoted the EU official as saying that the Islamic group had used civilians as "human shields" by placing operatives in residential areas, and said that the years of terrorist rocket-fire on southern Israel served as a "provocation."

The report also quoted Michel as saying that, "When you kill innocents, it is not resistance. It is terrorism."

phil

KateA -many thanks for those kind words ,a tribute like from someone for whom I have the utmost respect means so much more than the words of Donna ,although you will have seen that I responded to her in my normal way ,with no acknowledgement of course .I do not mind what she said ,it is her opinion and was politely put .---------
The one who fills me with disgust is Frank p who never misses an opportunity to be a smart alec and say something nasty ,made worse by having a brain that could work for the good of mankind rather than the reverse .He has mocked himself rather than me by his graceless behaviour ,he did describe himself some while back as an old f...t and I can find no reason to disagree with him on that :) ,so I will continue to write and use compassion and not hate or sarcasm -as always my respect to you .

phil

FRANK p I have no doubt spotted your post earlier than Kate A .so before she has a chance to reply .I am going to tell you that not only did I reply very politely to Donna ,I did so to you ,even after you wrote that despicable remark about the impostors filth .J . ISAACS MADE IT VERY PLAIN THEY WERE NOT HIS WORDS AND YOU CANNOT FIND IT IN YOUR HEART TO APOLOGISE. yes that was in capitals !! -----

You write from time to time words that I agree with and I have acknowledged that , but I can never agree with your gratuitous and nasty style.I have no bad feelings with you disagreeing with me ,just make your point, but it is high time a person of your age and ability learned to be polite .All you are doing is demeaning yourself not me .

Harvey

Logdon
Just read your excellent post on Mawdudi.

Substitute Nazism for Islamism and you would have a perfect match

Roland

Dixon, as I've pointed out elsewhere, you make claims about my views on Hamas, Darfur, etc.,which you knew to be untrue in the case of Hamas (you have had the good grace to withdraw that one) or have no justification in making (in the case of Darfur and other atrocities or outrages). As it happens you are wrong here too. I guess it makes it easier for you if you can stereotype me.

Your moral value system, or belief that such a concept is meaningless, is your own affair. I merely point out that it has unfortunate echoes, and that not entirely dissimilar beliefs have had terrible consequences.

Kate

To “just readers”: Get a grip. Wake up, stop ignoring historical facts and common sense.

Israel's problems are the ones people are soon to face in the West.

Donna Gardier

KateA: ---Hmmm Interesting Err okay. I’m tempted to ask…Who’s cider are you lot really on?! But this is where I bow out before I myself become an irritating self-justifying off-topic distraction. I'll give myself a pat on the back for having stifled my irritation for as long as I managed to! I’m very happy to live and learn. But in the main I go by one of my favourite adages which I’m happy to share….
.
"If what one has to say is not better than silence, then one should keep silent."
— Confucius
ZZZZip

Donna Gardier

KateA: ---Hmmm Interesting Err okay. I’m tempted to ask…Whose [cider] you lot really on?! But this is where I bow out before I become an irritating self-justifying off-topic distraction myself and add to robbing Melanie’s blog of its valuable credibility. Nonetheless it seems you would be in favour of the fact that I managed to stifle my reactions for as long as I did at least. For the record I was pleased by the vein of Phil’s response.

I’m very happy to live and learn. But in the main I go by one of my favourite adages which I’m happy to share….especially as Phil has descended yet again into ridiculous assumptions which would sound dodgy enough even if he were sitting picking up vibes from a crystal ball with Mystic Meg, let alone on a reasonable objective debating forum.

"If what one has to say is not better than silence, then one should keep silent."
— Confucius
ZZZZip

Donna Gardier

Excuse the revised comment, but I wouldn’t want anyone to think I was suggesting that anyone was sozzled and I’ve used the opportunity to correct my use of apostrophe (on behalf of Alexandrovich ;)… and to round off my thoughts properly in the cold light of day. Oops now I see how easy it is to become so self absorbed! That’s all I promise!

phil

Donna Gardier""If what one has to say is not better than silence, then one should keep silent."
— Confucius
ZZZZi" oh boy how right you are--------- At least you have broken cover and proved what you are ,and that is ignorant -you received a polite reply and continued with that ignorance ,you know, nothing to say but you say it a lot. You may put the apostrophe,s wherever you like .we need sense here not smart alec,s .----
I am sure you will have noted your missive brought acclaim from one person here the ace smart alec, frank.p,whose future no doubt is in the past ---says a lot for your interlude in the sun .---------
I have to say its refreshing to be nasty for a change ,so thank,s for the opportunity .----------
Now if you don't mind I will get back to what I usually do ,that is put the thoughts of one who cares for this world down on paper ,The empty words I will leave to you;,.)=;

Yehuda

AisA, you're asking me what are the causes of Jew-hatred.
I don't pretend to be a scholar in this field, unlike Professor Robert Wistrich, whose book, "The Oldest Hatred", postulates causes.
I can, however, point to a number of likely causes:
1. In the classical Greco-Roman eras Jewish monotheism and abhorrence of polytheism provoked hatred.
2. Christianity consigned Jews to eternal damnation because ,in its view, they had killed the Deity.
3. The Roman Empire's embrace of Christianity ensured that vast populations would thenceforth accept this Christian dogma and act on it by persecuting the Jews.
4. Islam, having failed to convert the Jews, turned on them, in much the same way as Christianity had done, though there were periods of tolerance, though not equality.Given the vastness of the Islamic Empire, here, too, large populations became antagonistic.
5. These attitudes permeated European and Near Eastern societeies continuously.
6. Jewish survival, despite the loss of national political independence and constant persecution, imparted to the Jews (in the eyes of non-Jews) a mystique of both victimhood and, paradoxically, also of satanic power.
7. Thus the Jew remained always the outsider, the interloper, the temporarily useful possessor of certain attributes which others valued as instruments of their own development and progress, but which eventually could be dispensed with once the host societies had acquired / learnt them.
8. In short, the Jews were "different", and many people both fear and hate non-conformity.
9. Hence, these societies longed to be rid of these non-conformists. Some achieved this by mass expulsions, as in the case of the exile from Spain in 1492; others by means of terrorising and murdering Jews as a prelude to expulsion, as in the case of England, and so on in the Middle Ages.
10.The Social Darwinism of the 19th century provided the basis for the Nazi race theory, and, given the millennial religious and cultural Jew-hatred that had become deeply rooted in Europe, the Jews seemed to be the logical choice for the role of the "sub-humans."
The early Zionists believed that if the Jews restored their normalcy by regaining political independence in their historical homeland, where, it was postulated, the majority of the nation would eventually live, Jew-hatred would become a marginal phenomenon.
Some commentators, however, believe that the reconstituted Jewish nation-state, Israel, has become the " pariah Jew among the nation-states of the world", not because of anything it has actually or allegedly done done, but because it is Jewish.
I have not done justice to the topic, but much scholarly literature on it is available.

phil

Yehuda that was quite complicated ,but I have a simpler explanation and it evolves from innocent childhood -viz:when I was small my pals and I built a den in a field ,and we would bully anyone (small:)) who came near ,it made us feel important and secure -simple I know but those thoughts have never been lost on me -Humans who are insecure feel so much better when they are in a majority ,and putting down others ,particularly successful ones, increase their feelings of achievement and importance -.Simple stuff I know but the thoughts of innocent children are so often the truth .--

hitler was smart enough to seize the opportunity to tell the German men it was not their fault that they could not feed their families when the mark reached its horrendous low point -he picked on the most identifiable minority .the Jews ,from then on those men had a perfect excuse for why he had no job and no money -it was not his fault etc etc .

Leslie

Thank God that the Jewish people have a country,after hundreds of years of persecution.
I believe that the nation of Israel,inspite of having to constantly defend herself against the agression of her neighbours,is the safest place in the world for Jewish people to live.
If the worst comes to the worst,Jews at last will have a place to go where they won't be turned away.
I believe God said "Enough!"in 1948.

Donna Gardier

Whilst I'm on - Thanks, good posts: Penny, Augustus, Ted Crilley, FrankP, Louise, Dixon and Hahaha J Isaacs (Ha Non Parmigiano)because I do agree with Phil that there is not enough acknowledgement shown to the excellent posts on here often enough.

NOW PHIL:

Steady on Phil for goodness sake! Get a grip on your ego please! This is my first time posting and I have restrained myself many a time over the months when I have been aghast at your judgement calls. So I hardly “talk a lot” as you put it.

The self-sabotage of your own credibility is your own affair. But much too often (in my opinion) you undermine the credibility of the site and it is a site which certainly (again in my opinion) does not deserve that.

I have been following Melanie’s work since being an avid reader of her column in the Sunday Times every week, many years ago, and all her work since. So I have my own affection and loyalty towards her writing, and her cause, and I have simply expressed my opinions about your grandstanding on this blog.

I am responding also to your efforts to curb the more gutsy communicators on this site who are forthright eloquent pithy robust contributors who are firmly in Melanie’s camp and who are brave and necessary and who you believe should ‘behave’ in a certain way pah! At times they serve it better than anyone can with their pithy colourful contributions. My point is that I see you continuously and obsessively taking on the role almost of a weak embarrassed parent on the blog’s behalf. This in my opinion is unnecessary and reflects patronisingly on every supportive free thinking individual on the site who is capable of forming their own opinions without your attempted control, finger pointing and snarling.

I can only speak up for myself of course and I am saying I would appreciate it as a fully committed member of the Melanie Phillips Appreciation Society if you would stop representing some kind of common purpose with your enormous self-belief in thinking it is beneficial to her and the blog for you to police it. I doubt I am the only one who feels affronted being represented by you by default (because I am a supporter of Melanie’s aims) by your constant interventions. As I have already said I am only speaking out because in my opinion I am concerned that it has become too detrimental. Seemingly intelligent independent people seem to get themselves caught up in your adulation and you act very much like a manipulator of fragile egos. Maybe because you have spent a lot of time feeding your own. After all when is it ‘refreshing’ for anybody with a healthy ego to be nasty? Something you endorse!

You veer from sugary ingratiating obsequious comments towards one group of people, to spitting venom at others, to taking it upon yourself to tell me on everyone’s behalf that I am allowed to be sloppy with apostrophes. Very strange. However to some extent your comments about being a bully as a child explain a lot, and that is a shame. You are recreating a little interdependent gang here and I am surprised so many people have been groomed so easily.

As for the scroll function – the way it is so blithely offered up as recommended avoidance of reading a lot of what appears on the blog these days is highly indicative of the fragmentation going on. To the extent, in my opinion, that it is beginning to look constructive. I may or may not be alone in thinking that there are too many people on this blog who value Melanie and who are being too divided, or deterred, too successfully by you.

You’ve now resorted to bullying language boosted by KateA which I’m sure both of you realise ensures I will not remain silent. Who with an ounce of chutzpah in these circumstances would? Sad provocation I’m afraid.

I am however glad that this is at the end of this thread because I am aware that I am caught up in something that I was rueing in the first place. Which was mainly about causing a distraction from the main thread of debate on Melanie’s article. Apologies for that and I am only tagging on at the end at least..

Yehuda

AisA (et al): in my recent post I erred in the title of Professor Robert Wistrich's book.
It is actually "The Longest Hatred", not "The Oldest Hatred."

phil

Donna Gardier where will you be speaking tomorrow -?and what is the price of a ticket ?----I do not doubt frank will turn up but I do feel the promoters will be disappointed with the turn out .:)----

I need to thank you for your comment about me being a bully as I was actually crying laughing for a while ,and I needed that TA !---------------Kate A and her multitude of admirers here will also be smiling at your stupidity for insulting the most self effacing and wonderful poster we have.-----

May I ask if you actually have anything to say on the subjects we debate here or are you just applying for Pete Hoskins job ? how about forwarding your CV -don,t have one ? no matter you are a good typist -not too much chutzpah that I hope ---.lol no worries I FEEL SURE WE WILL BE FRIENDS EVENTUALLY .:):)

AisA

Yehuda:

Thank you for that most informative post, and Phil too for your story about children playing in the den. I agree that it gives the weak of character some kind of 'get-out clause' if they can blame someone else for all their ills. But it still sometimes seems to me that the Jewish people are often their own worst enemy.

I am British born, grew up in West Africa, emigrated to Canada and then spent 10 years in the West Indies, and as one who was so often a 'stranger in a strange land' (albeit by choice) and therefore obviously 'different', I found that the best way to be accepted was to try and fit in a little. I don't advocate capitulation or the surrender of personal integrity, but it is so much easier to get along with other people if you don't constantly bash them over the heads with self-righteousness and an air of entitlement, no matter how hard-done-by you might feel - they don't usually like it, and often respond badly. QED.

Alas Melanie often shows both these traits in her attitudes.

phil

AISA why do you think we do,nt try to fit in ?-The Jews of the Diaspora have always bent over backwards to be helpful to the communities in which they were graciously accepted -they are rarely in trouble with the police ,they tend to be professionals like doctors, lawyers accountants ,they are very charitable and most people who actually are in real contact with them ,like them .

Over 2 millennia we have been depicted as the killers of Jesus who in fact was born,raised and died as a Jew-I never hurt anyone so why am I blamed even now and particularly when the teachings of the churches say it is wrong .Aisa we do not walk about with a chip on our shoulders, we are optimistic but we will never rid ourselves of those who exhibit their hatred on these columns You read my little tale against myself but I believe it is the weakness of humanity that I am happy to say I grew out of rapidly-- you must have seen it as a minority and it of course worse when things are not going well for the majority -like now

-I personally am uplifted by the many "righteous gentiles"( that is a term of the highest esteem) who write here to give us support and also occasionally a real Muslim who is not to scared to say it -Yehudah has tried to be informative .I hope I have added a little but the best way to find out is to mix with some Jewish people you may find it very rewarding although not to good for those on diets .

Yehuda

AisA, you'll probably be quite surprised to learn that your latest post embodies the very essence of traditional cultural Jew-hatred. Many genteel, cultured,urbane, understated Westerners (particularly in formerly great Britain) adopt the same tone when dealing with "you people."
Well, at least you don't have that problem with your Islamic population. Good luck to you.