The ugly face of bigoted Britain

Dee Ranged

I've long ceased supporting these politically correct 'charitable' agencies.

I desperately want to cease financially supporting the BBC but that would mean breaking the law.

Graeme Thompson

This is a stunt pulled by the BBC to discredit the complaints made to the Director General by at least 2 MPs for its "biased propaganda" against Israel. I understand release of the Balen Report under the Freedom of Information Act is also coming up in the House of Lords.

The BBC is killing two birds with one stone, its trying to discredit attacks for shilling for Hamas and whip up even more anti-semitism at the same time.

Alan O'Reilly

Anti-Semitism continues to be alive and sick in Bolshevist Britain.

It wasn't Jews who recently made the London Police run away while their pursuers hurled missiles and insults at the routed officers and vandalised property.

What is to stop these same antagonists from launching killing sprees against 'Infidels' across the country, wherever they can muster in their 1000s, now that they have the police cowered?

I fail to see how this is somehow all part of a 'Jewish Conspiracy,' which is itself a contradiction in terms according to Jeremiah 29:7 KJB.

Finally, "Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad."

That seems right now to sum up Britain's pending fate as a nation. If it comes to pass, it won't be Israel's fault.

Carl

Melanie, that is just such a funny blog on so many levels. You just can't work out who to direct your vitriol at. I'm only disappointed that you didn't manage to include a swipe at "self-hating Jews".

logdon

Nihilism versus reality is the only conclusion. Here's an analogy

Syed Abul A'ala Mawdudi.
Collected writings.

'Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere on the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and programme of Islam regardless of the country or the Nation which rules it. The purpose of Islam is to set up a State on the basis of its own ideology and programme, regardless of which Nation assumes the role of the standard bearer of Islam or the rule of which nation is undermined in the process of the establishment of an ideological Islamic State.'

Jerry
January 25th, 2009=2 06:45am Melanie Phillips Spectator Blog

'Jews are attached to Israel "from time immemorial." Until you have visited with open eyes, you will indeed not understand why our attachment. Jews rebuilt their country from wasteland. It is a beautiful little place with people raising their families and trying to structure a reasonable community. I have personally seen the following occurrences and institutions:
A bus driver refusing to continue driving until "his children" manage to get onto his bus. They were simply his regular passengers.
A bag of cookies left on my doorknob when my family moved into our rented apartment. A dinner invitation followed our thank you note.
A young adult speaking to a man in his seventies or older on a bus. They were not related as far as I knew, but came from the same neighborhood - our adopted neighborhood.
My children and newly arrived Ethiopian youngsters attending the same Hebrew language courses given over the summer to help them to get started in school.
My 14 year old son walking home from school through a deserted national park at night. No fear necessary.
Children who were four and five years old being sent into the street on their own to get to nursery. These same children played independently after school without supervision.
My ten year old insisting on travelling to the heart of Jerusalem with friends to wander about the city. While I had a problem, the parents of his friends had no problem at all. We let him go in the end without negative consequences as far as I can tell.’

A tidy little microcosm taken from the Melanie Phillips Spectator blog the other day. I posted the Mawdudi quotes, Jerry posted his own.

One, a divine inspiration to Islamists the world over, the other, an every day Jew who loves the only country he can truly call his own.

One, a man who's aspiration is to make dhimmified slaves of all kuffar, Jews and infidels, the other, a man knowing in today's climate of rabid and rapidly escalating anti-Semitism that Israel is the only place of safety he can depend upon.

Yet the Jews are portrayed as Nazi colonisers. The Islamists who rule Gaza with the Kalashnikov the oppressed victims?

We love death as you love life, is the Hamas mantra, yet the outcry over a BBC decision not to take sides (for the very first time in it's recent history) has an opportunistic gaggle of British MP's frothing at the mouth? Are they truly that insane, or is it the prospect of losing seats in areas of high Muslim immigration which is driving this synthetic moral outrage?

Would they prefer the aspirational sunny upland's of Jerry's very own democratic homeland to be turned into the self imposed squalor of the iron ruled totalitarian Gaza Strip?

This is moral inversion at it's most immoral. It is a travesty of all that the democratic world holds dearest.

It is quite simply an outrage which history will look back on and ask the same old question of why?

That is of course if objective history is allowed to exist in a Europe of ten or twenty years time rather than the islamist/left alliance bent hagiography which is taking over our cultures like a death plague.

Already the signs of the swastika are arising again in the once limpid Netherlands where freedom of expression is being denied to one of it's own elected parliamentarians. Could it be that that limpidity extends itself to caving in to an onslaught of anti western abuse by it's very own immigrants? Could it be that just like British MP’s, that to remain in their seats, the abusers of Geert Wilders have to denounce their indigenous culture and history? That they would rather see the worshippers of Mawdudi, Qutb, Banna, the real inheritors of Hitler's dream, venerated and fawned over rather than support the one ray of honesty which they snuff like a spluttering candle?

That the lights are going out over Europe, once again like a gruesome groundhog day, is lost on these people whose version of corruption is so corrupted in itself that they fail to see the on coming onslaught.

They came for the Jews but I was not a Jew, ends with the last man standing, alone and defenceless against a horde which he had previously tacitly colluded with.

These Quislings imagine that that collusion will protect them and buy off the invaders. They fail to understand anything which the history of Islam tells us.

When the executioners lamp post beckons they will remonstrate and squealingly protest. They will grovel and howl to no avail. Their dangling lifeless corpses will be left as warning to the ones left. A warning they, themselves ignored as they blithely listened to the siren song of multiculturalism.

How and why will it come to this ignominious end which is a symbol and portent to us all?

Read Mawdudi for the answer.

Daibhidh MacAdhaimh

No doubt Mr Sayle has the empirical evidence to back his, blust.., er, assertion.
I can't help feeling that the other pitiful critics of the BBC's refusal to air the 'appeal' are sichophantically indulging - appeasing? - Islamic extremists' tinder-box sensitivities. A sort of, 'Heh look! We're on your side,' moral cowardice value. They'd appear more honest if they'd just keep their lily liver mouths shut.
Time for another wee swig of the Jura.

Ed Hall

Someone on the BBC Scotland phone-in this morning suggested that Sky had joined the BBC in the boycott because Rupert Murdoch knows who he gets his money from. "Them" again, no doubt.

Robbit

Graeme Thompsom. ...
"This is a stunt pulled by the BBC to discredit the complaints... The BBC is killing two birds with one stone..." etc.

WELL SAID! Absolutely spot on!

logdon

Although my comment on this blog often may seem tangental I believe that the recent conflict is part of the global jihad and as such bleeds, (quite literally) into a larger picture. However if anyone want's specific illumination on 'Islamic Charity' they should turn to Rachel Ehrenfeld's Funding Evil, especially chapter three which is devoted to Palestine. What happens to western aid should be the question on everybody's lips. I read now that Hamas itself has just offered $52 million to Palestinian relief. Where did that come from I wonder? Under one of Arafat's old mattresses Hamas just happened to stumble across? Or is it made up of British taxpayers money Gordon seems to be throwing at the place? Twenty million last week only. And we're in the worst recession in living memory?

Cathy Naylor

I think we get the picture Melanie.
But am I allowed to feel compassion for those injured on both 'sides' of this conflict and disgust for those who have carried out acts of violence on civilians?
Or am I forced to choose whose children it is acceptable to kill and maim?
I do not support the Palestinians, but I am at a loss to see how the actions of the Israelis over the past month have achieved anything that could be counted as a credit to them. Is Israel's international reputation enhanced, are its citizens more secure, has Hamas repented and forsaken violence, have the Islamists lost credibility amongst their own people, are the lives of ordinary Palestinians enriched by having their homes and schools bombed? Will Tehran now stop its attempts to make nuclear weapons or will it be emboldened to do so?

oohkuchi

Didn't the BBC run ads for humanitarian aid to Georgia after the war last year? Other media ran blatantly pro-Georgian propaganda stuff. Don't remember much of a fuss over taking sides then. Why now?

stanley Jerusalem

Alan O'Reilly - I don't know where you obtained your well-known quotation but it ain't Jeremiah XXIX, 7. Its source is apparently - Anonymous ancient proverb, wrongly attributed to Euripides. The version here is quoted as a "heathen proverb" in Daniel, a Model for Young Men (1854) by William Anderson Scott. The origin of the misattribution to Euripides is unknown.
I wonder who published your KJV.....

stanley Jerusalem

logdon
January 26th, 2009 4:59pm
How right you are. Churchill's definition of appeasers was one who hopes that the crocodile will eat him last.

Archie

Millions of our money going to "foreign aid" while OUR pensioners are freezing and starving!

Neil

Imagine the howls of righteous outrage from Mel if the BBC did decide to rattle the tin to support the terrorists in Gaza. It can't be easy for her (I imagine being a Moral Maze panellist is a nice little earner too).

As for Sky 'News' - meh, who cares?

phil

I have read Andrews excelLent article and as always I have the greatest admiration for him .In fact so much so that I doubt that he would object to me offering a little different take on this matter -I wrote earlier on the thread"what the war-etc" and I did so because of my feeling that we should not succumb to the evil of hamas and thereby negate the kindness and compassion of the many who do care on both sides of the fence -if there is a better way of doing this all well and good but I believe we must put the innocents first -forgive me posting my piece again on this thread .--------

!
phil
January 26th, 2009 11:13am

Maybe I am missing something here ,but I cannot see what is wrong with an appeal to help the innocent victims,of which there may well be many,It can not be a good reason to say it is impartiality as they proved that was not the case during the conduct of the battle .Many humans are suffering and it is the duty of the rest of us to alleviate that suffering .hamas are obviously a problem as they cannot be trusted but that should not stop us trying to put in food and medicine .Jewish culture itself would demand that we help the sick and injured,the innocent are not our enemies ,even a wounded hamas terrorist would receive treatment in an Israeli hospital .If the money goes astray ,the sin will be with hamas not us ,we at least will have tried to bring comfort to those that need it . I hope Jeremy Bowen and his friends will be made to know the damage they have caused to the the views of compassionate and impartial people ."

YA

Gaza is 1.4 million people territory, not a small one.

But.. at least I've seen once in my local store packages of dill marked "West Bank". And vegies from Egypt, Israel, and Marocco.. Have somebody ever seen something marked "Gaza"?

Children, feces, rockets, lies, and hostility are the only outcomes from there.

This place is perpendicular to common sense and human decency.

There should be humanitarian appeal - AGAINST Gaza.

phil

Cathy Naylor I, know I post a lot but I feel that when people write with compassion ,whether I agree with them or not they are entitled to be recognised and I recognise that compassion in you ,but in answer to all those questions you posed that answer is probably no! Nevertheless to have done nothing to try to stop the evil ways of hamas would in my opinion be worse-----

.Israel could not continue to ignore the violence perpetrated on its citizens ,because it would have got even worse .hamas brought this upon their own citizens with a charter that calls for the extermination of all Jews and that cannot be allowed to happen by any self respecting government -They said enough is enough and with a heavy heart I have to agree with them -I am immensely troubled by the damage it has caused -I think we all are .but I am not clever enough to know what else could have been done -You may tell me ,perhaps you have a better way.

Meh...

"People assume that charities such as these merely do good works for all who are in need. Not so. For years, they have been a fount of virulent hatred against Israel, recycling the lies and distortions of Arab propaganda as fact while ignoring or minimising Israeli victimisation."

No evidence offered.

"The report was wrong on many counts, including allegations over the availability of food and basic necessities, which were later contradicted by both the World Bank and World Health Organisation, neither of which are exactly Israeli stooges."

Non sequiter.

and from the cheerleaders...

"Nihilism versus reality is the only conclusion."

Yeah, but that's not a conclusion, and Nihilism isn't opposed to reality.

"These Quislings imagine that that collusion will protect them and buy off the invaders. They fail to understand anything which the history of Islam tells us."

Time to read up on Quisling mate.

This webpage is where bad arguments go to die. Well, I wish that was the case, what they actually do is spin and spin around, gaining momentum in the minds of about 12 people.

Roland

Moderator - re. YA's comments on Gaza - are these acceptable?

Gary O

I wonder if a single bleeding heart so called celebrity has even glanced their eyes over the Hamas Charter. Why doesn't any of these charities doesn't ever mention the evil words mentioned therein that fuels so much hatred for the Jews in the hearts and minds of Palestinian kids?
Because it doesn't fill their coffers.

Roland

So- most of the world's leading and most respected charities have a visceral hatred of Israel?

Funny!

logdon

Blimey! Break out the bubbly. Yet still they get 58 million Euros. Is this a foot shooting contest whereby if you break every rule of civilisation a reward pops up? Can't wait for Iran to bomb Brussels, how much will the EU cough up to the Mullah's then? Judging by this, every penny they've extorted from us. But on the bright side this incredible announcement seems to have upset the Hamas apple-cart, used as it is to unconditional support from a flaccid EU. Maybe, as in the great Otis Redding song, a change is gonna come? At last an official rebuttal to the arguments of the left of universal denouncement of Israel, this is the article du jour. Enjoy it whilst you can is all I can say.

"Top EU official: Hamas fully responsible for Gaza war," from the Associated Press and Jerusalem Post, January 26:

Hamas bears full responsibility for the war in Gaza, a top EU official said Monday in the Strip, calling the group "a terrorist movement."
"At this time we have to also recall the overwhelming responsibility of Hamas," Louis Michel, European Commissioner for Development and Humanitarian Aid, told reporters.
"I intentionally say this here - Hamas is a terrorist movement and it has to be denounced as such," Michel said as he visited the town of Jabalya in northern Gaza.
"Public opinion is fed up to see that we are paying over and over again - be it the [European] commission, the member states or the major donors - for infrastructure that will be systematically destroyed," he said.
Reuters quoted the EU official as saying that the Islamic group had used civilians as "human shields" by placing operatives in residential areas, and said that the years of terrorist rocket-fire on southern Israel served as a "provocation."
The report also quoted Michel as saying that, "When you kill innocents, it is not resistance. It is terrorism."
A Hamas official, Mushir al-Masri, was quoted by Reuters as saying his group was "shocked" at Michel's comments. He lambasted the official for "giving cover to massacres and terrorism committed by the Zionist enemy against the Palestinian people… Palestinian resistance is as legitimate as the resistance of European countries that fought against foreign occupiers."
Michel announced 58 million ($74 million) in emergency aid Monday for Palestinians.
Around 32 million ($41.7 million) of the aid package will go to alleviate immediate needs in Gaza such as shortages in drinking water, food and medical supplies. Another 20 million ($26 million) will go to projects in the West Bank, the remaining 6 million ($7.8 million) to Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon.'

Groovy Times

Melanie provides us with an important service, a counter-weight to the rising consensus of Jew-baiting hysteria that is wrapped up in the guise of humanitarian concern and the anti-war sentiments of the liberal left. Melanie deconstructs this current moral myopia to reveal the ugly anti-semitism lurking beneath the surface of polite British society. I'm glad there are people out there who also refuse to susbscribe to this discourse of scapegoating Israel at every opportunity. Shame on Ben Bradshaw, you and your party ain't never gonna get me vote, and Christian Aid won't see a dollar one of my money either!

Joe Strummer

BBC Scotland's studios in Glasgow was invaded last night in a sit-in by pro-Hamas supporters. In Glasgow, the anti-Israel campaign comprises of mostly ultra-traditional and extremist Roman Catholic bigots who are reared on vicious anti-Semitism and sectarian anti-Protestantism which is endemic in The Vatican. They are not Left-wingers as much reported with an agenda of social progression on issues such as women's rights and gay rights. Why else would they be aligning themselves with Islamofascists ?

These bigots will not hold marches or demos in support of the victims of Mugabe, the genocide in the Congo or any other humanitarian cncern, only against Israel. They are not civil rights or human rights activists. These actions in Glasgow are just further examples of simple Roman Catholic hatred of the Jews.

Agnes Dickens

Logdon, I think in the future many people will try to immigrate to Israel or Ethiopia or countries like that where they don't have High ignorant extremist immigrants, the British politicians will be first to ask Asylum, but I am afraid they would not be granted, because what they did to their country, they let their country and people down with their liberal mentality, they would not be trusted, they will be sent back to their Sharia Law country "the former Great Britain"

Louise

Phil, your views regarding the Appeal, so in keeping with Jewish values, are admirable. (Antisemites please take note.)

One thing I absolutely hate about the BBC (apart from their twisted hypocrisy on this matter) is the way they use stories like this as a major part of every bulletin. (It's like the Sachs/Ross business all over again, and when I see them giving maximum publicity to themselves in this way a rather unladylike seven-letter word beginning with a W and much loved in Oz springs to mind!). They should surely announce what their Director-General has said, and let that be an end to the matter. Instead, they are banging on about it, showing footage of the Appeal tape being prepared, and inviting - nay, imploring - viewers to keep the e-mails coming. This tendency of theirs to make themselves a major news story is galling, irritating, and - in this case -does invite theories such as Graeme's that this is a big publicity stunt. I do think Thompson's decision is a rather cheap ploy to protect Al Beeb from a charge of bias, and I find his attitude totally appalling.

Norm

There was a report over the weekend that Iran had pledged to rebuild Gaza and Saudi had donated $1 Billion dollars. How much more do they need? (sorry if I've posted this twice)

benjamin

Dear Phil,
I have a better way.
Israel announces that it will live within the borders agreed in 1948 at the founding of Israel (which I am in favour of). They try to compensate for the people dispossessed over the last 40 years of colonisation. Israel officially renounces, for the first time, validated by a referendum, the creation of Greater Israel which is coninuing right now. They already have about 80% of former Palestine. They can build all the walls they like on Israel's land. This would get the whole world on their side. Then a huge international force would implement the "agreement" with massive development of the Arab parts of Palestine. I know a lot of you will say "the others will not agree" and will continue terrorism, but most of the posters here seem to be anti-Arab racists e.g. see the post by YA above "There should be humanitarian appeal - AGAINST Gaza."
Most people want to live in peace and dignity - even Arabs.
The alternative is that Israel continues present strategy and takes more and more land by settlement and ends up with 90% of Palestine, offering the worst land without water etc. to the Palestinians. This will cause the problem to continue forever. In a recent radio interview with West Bank leaders and political analysts, the consensus was that Israel has decided never to accept a Palestinian state of any form - no matter what they (the Pals) do. That leaves Israel having to control several million disenfranchised people forever?
PS Most of my posts here never get posted - what is offensive about what I write?

BullCats

Alan O'Reilly will understand my dismay & concern when Lib Dem MSP Hugh O'Donnell stood in the Scottish Parliament and made anti semitic statements, to the delight of the baying mob (of MSPs). I have complained vigorously to the Scottish Parliament and the liberal democrats, but to no avail.

hadrian

Of course there are thousands of terrible personal tragedies in the aftermath of any war; this can have been no different. Of course coming to the aid of one's enemy is a christian duty but I reseve the right to do it through channels I regard as truly Christian and trustworthy. I have not given a penny to Christian Aid in years as I think it has degenerated into a mere humanist organisation which has ditched its distinctively Christian credentials years ago.
On this one I think the BBC are right. I do not recall them ever broadcasting appeals for areas where Christians are suffering persecution and genocide.
The post contrasting the Islamic megalomaniac vision of a worldwide Islamic State tells you all you need to know about this as a POLITICAL force. If we put it beyond our normal democratic criticism then we have only ourselves to blame when it finally devours us as happened bit by bit to Germany prior to the Second World War.
The Jews as I wrote before are most certainly NOT the ones plotting world domination or violent enforcement of Judaism on everyone else- they weren't the ones exploding bombs in London, etc.
All that said, it is true that extending aid to our enemy, especially if he is brought low, can have immense reconciliatory effects. The danger for Israel- and you can understand their reservations, therefore- is that you do not inadvertantly reinvogorate those whose unswerving, even suicidal obsession is your own annihilation. And I am afraid radicalised Islam is a movement of unreasoning hatred of all but self. Unlike the longsuffering and merciful Jehovah it knows nothing at all of tolerance.

wonderer

Neil isn't the first person here to point a finger at Melanie for both working for and criticising the BBC. It should be remembered, though, that the BBC is a public service broadcaster and, as such, should carry a range of opinions. If people like Melanie didn't contribute, the bien-pensant left would have a virtual monopoly.

Fabio P.Barbieri

CAFOD is notorious among Catholics for being virtually at war with most Church teachings, supporting abortion and contraception, and having a largely homosexual leadership. The "Catholic" label serves purely to penetrate the parishes and relieve gullible Catholics of their well-meant contributions; but the pretence is becoming so threadbare that some parishes are no longer receiving CAFOD appeals. NO doubt the other "charities" have similar attitudes and leaderships.

Dagobert

Was there an appeal for help for the Serbian women and children killed and wounded by Blair's and Clinton's merciless bombing of Serbia on behalf of a group of Moslem drug dealers?

Mark Solomon

That many charities are simply left-wing campaigning agencies has been known for several years to anyone with half a brain-charitable status is a tax thing, nothing to do with being even-handed or unbiased. And the BBC, with its correspondents on the ground probably knows better than most how Western aid ends up funding terrorism by removing the Palestinian government's reponsibilities to do normal things like funding schools and hospitals, giving it the leeway to use its money on lobbing rockets into Israel and compensating families of suicide bombers. Of course this was a cheap way for the BBC to be able to demonstrate it is impartial at no cost to itself or the Palestinian cause it so overtly supports, given that other channels are broadcasting the appeal and the controversy will no doubt earn it higher viewing figures.

What I simply cannot understand about the whole nonsense is - why are we talking about £20m or £50m donations to Gaza for reconstruction when the last lot of cash disappeared without trace? There are only one and a half million residents in Gaza. Using the UN agencies already there, why don't we simply offer them £100,000 each, distributing the money to them direct, but making it plain that that's it, not a penny more ever! It would work out cheaper for us overall, rich people (OK 100 grand is not much in our terms but is for them!) do not support or participate in terrorism and hopefully many would use the money to move away from Gaza to somewhere else. Problem solved! (only slightly tongue in cheek..)

Irene Lancaster

This is my blog on the issue. It includes the feelings of an auxiliary nurse, who was made to experience the pickets outside the BBC studio in Manchester, when she was on her way to work at St. Mary's Hospital nearby. She said that most of the pickets were pro Palestinian and shouting anti-Jewish slogans:

http://irenelancaster.typepad.com/my_weblog/2009/01/what-would-rabbi-burns-make-of-it-all.html

Paul Freeman

It seems even the BBC has realized there are limits to dressing up anti-Israel propaganda as "humanitarianism".

May we now hope when they reflect on the anti-BBC hate demonstrations -- again, posing nicely as humanitarian concern -- they will consider their own contribution to this viciousness?

Towncar

"Churchill's definition of appeasers was one who hopes that the crocodile will eat him last."

Sublimely succinct.

Sanchez

Sorry Mel I don't get which lies these charities seem to pedalling? Seems to me like they have a pretty acurate take on things. Israel's violent racist attacks on the Palestinian people have been going on for decades, it's well documented Mel, Google it!

Adam B.

I'm glad you think anti-Semitism is funny Carl. But what else could one expect from someone who refuses to condemn the Hamas charter, which calls for the extermination of the Jews.

Adam B.

The highpoint of Alexei Sayle's career was in about 1983. Why does anyone still listen to him? Perhaps because the media darlings like his Communist and Israel hating background?

Dixon

Just a stylistic point here. I know Im no blog expert and no doubt my comments get on sensitive parts of some folks anatomy ( particularly the ones who pick a fight over something ) but I would think that I speak for many when I say that some peoples comments are just....waaaaaaaay toooooo looonnnnnng!!!!!!

The clue is the word "comment". Its not "manifesto", "essay" or "panegyric" ( however its spelled ).

I apologise if this annoys anybody. I honestly aim it at nobody in particular. In fact, "comments" that are over five thousand words long I have long learned it is best simply to ignore.

My policy is, if you have a lot to say ( which is great ) break it into smaller pieces.

Adam B.

benjamin, there are many factual errors in your post:
1. You believe that if Israel returns to the borders of 1948 (which are actually ceasefire lines) then peace will break out. Why didn't peace break out in 1948, or for the next 19 years when there was no "occupation" of Judea and Samaria and Gaza (other than the occupations of Egypt and Jordan of these territories)? What's changed since?
2. You want compensation for Palestinians who have been disposessed. Conspicuous by their absence from your post is an equal or greater number of Jewish refugees from Arab nations. No one talks about compensating them. Why?
3. The Jews do not have 80% of the former Palestine as you claim (which was a mandate, never a country, at any time). In 1922, over 60% of Palestine was awarded exclusively to the Arabs, without any Jewish presence, which became Transjordan, later Jordan. Of the remaining less than 40%, the UN plan was to divide this remainder in roughly equal halves to create one Jewish and one Arab state. The Jews accepted the plan, the Arabs rejected it and launched a war of annihilation against the Jews with the armies of five nations, which they lost.
4. Israel is not building a wall, the security barrier is over 90% fence. The wall section exists only in areas where Palestinian snipers have been active, thus preventing such attacks. It would be wonderful if there was no wall or fence, but it is preferable to having an endless stream of suicide bombers killing innocents, as was the case before it was erected. (It was only put up after many years of suicide attacks).
5. Most people want to live in peace and dignity - that's quite true. That doesn't mean they wish to afford this right to others.
6. Israel has accepted the two state solution (without any historical or moral foundation in my opinion, but there you have it.) You quote a small minority which does not represent the view of any major political party in Israel. So what's your point? Why not point out that not only does Hamas wish to destroy Israel completely (a difficult starting point for negotiations, wouldn't you say?), it wants to kill every living Jew in the world (read its charter). How does one accommodate "peace and dignity" with that?

Peace will come when the Islamic world accepts a non-Islamic country in the Middle East. In other words, it accepts plurality and difference. Until that day arrives (and I fear it is very distant), peace is simply impossible. I wish it wasn't so, but it is.

Squire Trelawney

Am I the only person who is rather amused by watching the BBC hung on their own petard?

For three weeks the BBC's simplistic reports of the conflict in Gaza was presented as a narrative of a grossly unfair humanitarian event - a struggle with a disasterous outcome for a Palestinian civilian population, victims of a crisis seeking nothing but peace.

Rather than reporting the conflict as a phase of an ongoing war, the origin of which their viewers deserve an explanation, the BBC prefered to abandon analysis of events in favour of the 'human' story.

Nearly as much time was devoted to the confict in Gaza and describing it as a humanitarian disater as was spent describing the aftermath of the Asian Tsunami a few years ago - thereby

Put crudely it's little wonder people are outraged at the BBC for refusing to broadcast the DEC appeal. It just doesn't make sense to them because the BBC had said it "looks like a duck and quacks like a duck". But the demand to broadcast the appeal has forced Mark Thompson to admit the conflict in Gaza was not a duck (and certainly not a disaster compared to previous DEC appeals).

Adam Cohen

Please pass the bucket, there is only so much pro-Israeli spin one can take. Anyway its too little too late, the World media has changed, the Internet & free Digital global satelite channels have punched big holes in the now dying "Mainstream" media. So Mel you 60 years out of date.

Lawson

Melanie, do not expect much understanding from either leading ecclesiastical clerics or the heads of some aid organizations. They no longer respect the Christ whom they are supposed to honour and serve. Those who take the Holy Scriptures (Old & New)seriously look elsewhere for genuine Christianity.

An American

With the way things are going financially for the US, UK and Europe...Sorry, I still think of the UK as a country in of itself...not just a part of the European Union....When the financial trouble continues to send our countries economies into deeper recession, inflation, depression, etc. Where will the money come from to support these faux charities? Not from me, if I can help it.

But wait...silly me. Our politicians will continue the great giveaway even if they have to print more money and it ends taking a wheelbarrel full of money to buy a loaf of bread.

Speaking of Zimbabwe...just heard that 'The One' signed over a half billion dollars to Africa for US paid abortions, etc.. I suppose that Obama believes we have nothing better to do with our money.

Next he'll be telling us to eat cake.

Joining the dots

It's about charity appeals, people! The BBC got its fingers burnt ove SCD,Blue Peter and others. The DEC appeal use 'contentious' film footage. This is footage that the BBC would happily screen on the news BUT where money raising for charity is concerned 'once bitten: twice shy'. Secondly, they have also expressed doubts about the aid getting to the right recipients.

In all, this a is a virtual admission that the news has been Pallywood propaganda and that they know that Hamas steals the aid, selling it on to raise cash for arms.

It's the charity appeal aspect that makes the difference. They know that it could be challenged in law. This is the closest you are ever likely to get to an admission of bias. Enjoy it!

Dixon

Dagobert
January 26th, 2009 10:32pm
Was there an appeal for help for the Serbian women and children killed and wounded by Blair's and Clinton's merciless bombing of Serbia on behalf of a group of Moslem drug dealers?"

You know what, I argued with people in favourv of vthat campaign...but since have changed my view of it. I tend now to think that maybe the Serbs were right all along.

Nonetheless, they cocked a snook at NATO and for THAT reason needed to be hammered.

Idle Pen Pusher

What is it about Jews and Israelis that the left hates so much? I'm not sure. But I think the fact, relative to their neighbours, they are Western, pale-skinned and militarily competent probably explains most of it.

Antonia K

Benjamin, since you advocate that Israel shrinks voluntarily to the borders she cannot possibly defend against declared enemies, have thought out any provisions for disenfranchised 6 million Jews, or do you think that there will be no Jewish survivors to worry about?

benjamin

Dear Mark Solomon
You betrayed yourself with the last sentence...if only ALL the Palestinians would move away, right? Don't worry, Israel is working on it.

Neil

There are plenty of other members of the right-wing chattering class who could take Mel's Radio 4 spots, wonderer.

Tancred

Hamas indiscriminately rocketed and bombed Israel.

Hamas is in breach of the Geneva Conventions, if in fact it had even signed them.

Hamas's consitutional aim is the destruction of Israel.

They use women and children as human shields. They lie and steal for their political ends. They know no decency or humanity.

And yet the aid agencies believe them?

Look. I worked for some years at Director level for the British Red Cross. That organisation is riddled with left wing ideologues at the senior levels and the extent of Islamic/Marxist sympathies just shocked me. These people are not deep thinkers - just knee jerk student Lefties who haven't grown up. Israel represents "The Man" and their default setting is to support Hamas, Hesbolah and every extremist Islamic grouping because Israel and the West can never be right (most surprising given that the sexual and social leanings of many of them would be make them unacceptable in an Islamic society).

The Red Cross is supposed to be an impartial agency, necessarily so as they must work with all sides in conflict.

They should NEVER become involved in the kind of anti-Israeli sentiments being expressed and yet, to hear their statements of late, I am shocked to see how partisan the Red Cross has become.

The Red Cross will not even allow membership to, or the symbol of, the Magen David Adom Society.

They have recognised the Islamic Crescent but not Davids shield.

For information, Magen David Adom was officially chartered in Israel as a result of the murderous riots of 1929, when farm and urban settlements - totaling some 170,000 of the country's Jewish population - were attacked by the Arab population.

Nothing changes.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Health/mda.html

Carl

AdamB - the Hamas charter is just words, which they will never be in a position to act on. Israel's continued atrocities, which you refuse to condemn, are actions, resulting in the death of innocent civilians and the daily harassment and humiliation of both Palestinians and Arabs living within Israel.

Oliwagino Alefava Yihiri

Sanchez, Israelis are only protecting themselves, they never start a fight or war, you can just think those Arabs are innocent, I don't think so, we don't need to google it to know what is going on in the middle East, yes, the charities are not doing well, why they only care about Philistine there are other country in the world who have worst problem then there, you should not involve this situation unless you are Arab or Jewish, you making me sick now, because you are one of those people who don't know much about other parts of the world

Colonial

Arab states vow to wipe Israel of the map. And they would if they could.
Israel could, if it wished, easily wipe Arab countries "of the face of the map." It has not.

Arab suicide bombers have killed many thousands of perfectly innocent men, women and children around the world.
Israel has killed a limited number of innocents whilst trying to destroy Arab rocket sites.

Some mutterings from the West about Muslims

The same West spits venom at Israel.

I think it goes back to self hate. The reasons relate back to guilt for colonialism and, the natural swing of the pendulum from being a tough, self reliant and outward looking to society to becoming a wet, inward looking nanny state.

Juliana

Meanwhile, guess which leader Obama has first invited to talk with him ?

tommy

The pursuit of ignorance extends also to the House of Lords where they were scheduled to view Geert Wilders anti-Islam/immigration film "Fitna" on the 29th January.

Sadly our Lordships might pick up the wrong message about it and it has now been cancelled.

The decision was taken after a meeting between Lord Nazir Ahmed, Government Chief Whip of the House of Lords and Leader of the House of Lords, and representatives from the Muslim Council of Britain, the British Muslim Forum and others.
http://tinyurl.com/dlf45u

Aren't these the same people that wanted the koran to be exempted from the Incitement to Religious Hatred legislation-- ??
................................
Meanwhile at the European Parliament :-
A press conference showing of Geert Wilders’ anti-Islam/anti-immigration film Fitna has been cancelled by order of European party leaders. UKIP MEP Gerard Batten had invited Wilders to the parliament to show the film and give a talk.
http://tinyurl.com/b5xfst

Would this film be likely to upset the honourable members so much that they would be unable to eat their heavily subsidised lunches (that includes their drink bills)...all at our expense

How is it that my government can be dictated to by a minority.
I have seen the police humiliated,the house of commons humiliated and now the Lords-Just what has happened to this once great country.....
Post you answers to me :- only blank sheets of paper accepted

stanley Jerusalem

Carl
January 27th, 2009 9:32am

AdamB - the Hamas charter is just words, which they will never be in a position to act on.

Yes Carl but do you agree with them?

phil

bednjamin nothing offensive but your quote"They already have about 80% of former Palestine."is very wrong and by now I feel sure those with better logistics than me will have told you so,.but you are talking about a peace that hamas do not want and we all do .

Original Tony

This is all old news. The current list of "do-gooders" that want to help the "oppressed" are no different from the ones that used to help uplift Zanu-pf and Zipra in the Rhodesian conflict.
While these two political/military organizations were bayonetting babies and stuffing people into mud huts before setting them on fire, the "do-gooders" pumped all sorts of aid into their war chests. One of the worst was the World council of Churches, a bed of commies if ever there was one.
I find it strange that these ostensibly 'good' organizations can be so one-sided, closing their eyes to the horrors their recipients dole out on the innocent, all in the name of a 'cause'.

phil

Tancred that is the first time I have heard those words from someone who knows the inside story of these "charity" organisations -it is what I have always believed ,at least for many years now,it is a job for the boys ,easy money for deluded lefties and in most cases a huge drain on the charity given by good people .someone needs to check their salaries ,their cars and expenses.the givers may well get an almighty shock .

Carl

@Dixon - so you think that the Serbian death camps for Muslims were right do you? It shows how blinded with hatred against Muslims you are and you should be ashamed of yourself. Israel has some fine supporters.

fellow traveller

Phil

"someone needs to check their salaries ,their cars and expenses.the givers may well get an almighty shock ."

That is, extra checking on top of the audited accounts they provide? eg, Oxfam spends about 11 per cent of its income on staff and admin. If only governments were that efficient.

You might not care for their politics, so criticise that, rather than alleging vague corruption that you obviously don't have any evidence for.

Peter Thomas

NGO bias is being monitored at ngo-monitor.org, an Israel-based organisation set up to identify and document NGOs, with noble stated aims, who seem unable to remain neutral in the issues of the Middle East. The NGOs basically run by the same tribe inhabiting the BBC, Ch4, Guardian, Foreign Office etc, identified by Tancred (Thankyou Tancred!)
No doubt, opponents of Israel will dismiss this as 'Zionist propoganda'. However, they provide ample documented evidence of this anti-Israel bias, (not least from the NGO Forum at the notorious Durban conference 2001).
I suppose the only UK body that have any monitoring function on NGOs would be the Charity Commission. I wonder if NGO Monitor (or anyone else) has ever raised the the issue with the CC. The CC has already defined the danger of funds being directed to terrorists who might threaten UK's security, but there is nothing on political bias apart from a category of complaint 'where you disagree with decisions made by the trustees and those decisions have been properly made within the law and the provisions of the charity's governing document'.
But - the CC is funded by HMG!

phil

LOUISE, thanks it is always nice to hear kind words ,Kate A and yourself always display your humanity as do some others of our regulars ,but strange to observe how some even attack peaceful emotions and constructive suggestions .lance corporal frank P never misses an opportunity to send a barbed comment regardless of the fact he agrees with my position (lol)-I think he is missing the love of his blogging life "the fragrant one " whose keyboard seems to have to disappeared to the place in the sky where the uncontrollable ones eventually rest -happy days . :)---clouzo is still looking .

phil

stanley Jerusalem you all keep asking carl -I think he has made it perfectly plain that he does agree with them -Julius Streicher never changed his views .why would you think carl will?-I think we need to be comfortable with our own views.not his -I would like to say more but Pete has a hard enough job as it is and I have said enough this morning .boker tov chaver .

Chris in UK

Have donated to DEC in the past.
Will not do so again.

Shaun Harbord

Anyone seeking a more balanced, less hysterical view of the Middle East might try the article by Henry Siegman, a visiting research professor at SOAS, University of London. He is a former national director of the American Jewish Congress and of the Synagogue Council of America in the latest edition, available online, of the London Review of Books.

Michael

Hey Melanie.

Just a thought. Hows about instead of endless pot stirring and screaming, what not devote some time and energy to try and reinvigorate a campaign for funds for this worthy cause, as highlighted by the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7842671.stm

Regards,

Michael

fellow traveller

Dixon: "Was there an appeal for help for the Serbian women and children killed and wounded by Blair's and Clinton's merciless bombing of Serbia on behalf of a group of Moslem drug dealers?"

while the death of all non-combatants (Serbs, Israelis, Palestinians, anyone) is horrible, the military action followed because the Serbs murdered 200,000 Bosniacs, made refugees of 2 million and used a systematic campaign of rape and torture to terrorise the communities ("Moslem drug dealers" as you call them) that they attacked in what they admitted was a racial killing campaign (note: DNA analysis on the bodies form the mass graves shows that Serbs and Bosniacs are effectively genetically identical).

If you're going to set up straw man arguments, try not be so offensively ignorant.

phil

fellow traveller you have only named one ,there are others and I can assure you audited accounts are not read by many -how many have been exposed in the past?I do not want to get into a spat about charity anyhow .I believe wholeheartedly in it ,but not all those that are involved in its collection and distribution ,nor why they are there in the first place .

Carl

Oh dear ,phil .Now you are calling me a Nazi . Isn,t that somewhat ironic when you ignore the fact that Dixon has actually condoned the slaughter of Muslims by Serbs ? You need to take a long look at yourself before criticising other for what you think they are .

Chip

Carl,

There were no Serbian death camps. Feel free to name them and post documentary information proving their existence and I'll retract what I just said.

But when you search "Serbian death camps" you find a great mound of articles like these:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1205

Quote:

"Amid the sensationalist coverage, a few sobering facts filtered through. U.S. intelligence officials, who had "redoubled and tripled their efforts to establish what had been happening in detention camps for Croats and Muslims," found no evidence of systematic killing of prisoners (New York Times, 8/23/92--although Times editorialists continued to write of death camps and "genocide," 8/28/92). The Guardian's correspondent (8/12/92) reported that "all camps run by the Serbian Army [as opposed to two run by autonomous militias] were of good standard."

Asif G. Nawazz

Carl- the Hamas charter is just words, which they will never be in a position to act on. Yet, you refuse to condemn them. And then you have the gall to tell others that they ought to be ashamed of themselves for hatred! Aside from being a bigot, you're also not the brightest candle in the chandelier, are you?

MattLondon

"stanley Jerusalem you all keep asking carl -I think he has made it perfectly plain that he does agree with them -Julius Streicher never changed his views .why would you think carl will?-I think we need to be comfortable with our own views"

And that's it. If we don't agree with you we get bundled in with Nazi war criminals.

I just compare what I've seen Israel doing to Gaza (in response, I know, to Hamas attacks) with what German occupying troops did in France, Greece and Jugoslavia in the last war. Except the German's exacted less severe reprisals.

Sanctimonius Maximus

Phil: "lance corporal frank P never misses an opportunity to send a barbed comment regardless of the fact he agrees with my position (lol)-I think he is missing the love of his blogging life "the fragrant one " whose keyboard seems to have to disappeared to the place in the sky where the uncontrollable ones eventually rest -happy days."

Stop being SO petty and small minded! In addition all that man of conscience, hand-wringing, self-righteous uber worthiness is wearing a bit thin too!

Dixon

FELLOW TRAVELLER

YOU ARE QUOTING SOMEONE ELSES COMMENT AND ATTRIBUTING IT TO ME!!!!

CRIKEY. Why don't you actually read a thing properly before reacting?

Then...immensity among irobies...you accuse ME of setting up a "straw man".

Dixon

...meanwhile Carl is blathering on about NAZI s among the commentors ...

LOOK, actually read what I wrote, not what the person I quoted wrote wont you? HE commented about Muslims. I only said I have changed my views on bombing Serbia and think that the Serbs were right after all.

I didnt say what I thought they were right about! So the attribution to me of some exculpation of Slobodan for the mass murder of teenage boys is completely unreasonable.

What I think the Serbs may have been right about is their view of the situation, not their way of addressing it.

phil

Asif G. Nawazz-he doesnt even have a switch to turn them on ,but he has found a friend in mattlondon ,who no doubt marched with him to take starbucks .brave guys .Matt was also in GAZA to see with supermans eye what occurred j,ust as no doubt he saw what happened in Lidice .Oradour-sur-Glane and malmedy -dont be such a smart alec matt you do not have a leg to stand on .

fellow traveller

Phil: "I can assure you audited accounts are not read by many -how many have been exposed in the past?"

I agree, there are many charities that are poorly run and wasteful, and you have every right to give or not give to any charity you choose.

We should always be active and investigate who we're giving to. I think your suspicion of some charities is fully justified, but that information on Oxfam took about 30 seconds to Google.

Where we part company is that I don't think labelling the work of people who overwhelmingly work for nothing or for a fraction of what they could earn in the free market as

"a job for the boys ,easy money"

is at all accurate. Having known several people who have given the last three years of their lives to work in Darfur and Burma, nothing could be further from the truth in their cases.

Kennybhoy

"Truly, an utter madness has consumed Britain..."

And the usual suspects, as detailed in Miss Phillips post, constitute "Britain"....?

Ellien

Carl, Jan 27 09, 9.32 - Perhaps you think Mein Kampf was also "just words"?

YA

To: benjamin January 26th, 2009 8:25pm

..and others who want to talk about "anti-Arab racism".

Actually, among ten casualties IDF suffered in operation "Cast Lead" - two were Arabs.

One of three Israeli civilians killed, was an Arab.

About 20% of population of Israel are Arabs and (despite some stupidity shown), majority of them understood that Israeli government and IDF defended BETTER WAY OF LIFE.

Now two questions:

Is it hard to understand?

and

How is that related to "anti-Arab racism"?

..And eventually bonus question - how many Jews would risk their lifes defending the way of life promoted by hamas?

darkhorse

Carl January 27th, 2009 9:32am

"The Hamas charter is just words, which they will never be in a position to act on. Israel's continued atrocities, which you refuse to condemn, are actions, resulting in the death of innocent civilians and the daily harassment and humiliation of both Palestinians and Arabs living within Israel"
so Hamas's charter is just a nice lullaby written in code? give me a break!
The Myopia shown by ideologues is breathtaking

Hugh Brennan

Unfortunately, the fact of the matter, is that in the eyes of the Islamic terrorists restoration of the Ummah is a religious duty of the highest order. No land that has ever been withing the world of Islam can ever be yielded to the rule of nonbelievers. To do so is a crime against God and a sign of abject cowardice. The Islamic killers take the centuries' long campaign to drive the Christians from the Holy Land as their model: hence the constant ( and to us seemingly irrelevant) chatter about "Crusaders". Their position is that whether it takes fifty years or a hundred and fifty years, Israel will be destroyed and the Jews rightfully subjucated or erradicated. For this the Islamic texts produce copious justification. Further the texts also provide justification for all forms of lie and deceit in pursuit of this struggle. Strategms that are so offensive to Westerners- bombings, suicides murders, violations of truces and lies; are acceptable, and approved by the actions of words of the Prophet, when directed against unbelievers.
All of this seems absurd to those of us who live in the 21st century, but is a reality for our Arab cousins for whom it is only the 14th century.
I would suggest reading Victor Davis Hanson's work on the cultural underpinnings of the Western Way of War vs that of eastern desert raiders such as the tribesmen of the Arab world. Our overwhelming power and all or nothing tactics offend them as much as their deceptions and "raids" offend us.
Understanding should not hamper our ability to defend ourselves, and our new-found abhorrance for bloodshed certainly doesn't relieve our governments of the duty of self-defense.
My sympathies lie with the Jews, but the humanity of the Arab is not foreign to me. But the truth is that it is Arab intransigence that prevents peace. War would cease immediately if Muslim efforts to destroy Israel ended. The Jews would then bend their best efforts to make the entire region prosper.
But we must, whatever our position, remember that the Jews who Euopre so cruelly abandoned to their fate in the 40's, will not go quietly to their doom this time. If Iran's mad Mullahs really ttry to ressurect the 12th Imam by enacting a nuclear holcaust in Israel, the entire world may burn as well.

phil

fellow traveller sometimes it is hard to be cool and calm -I know many charity workers are good people but too many who are involved in the middle east are not .some are deluded and I do not have hard feelings about them ,just frustration.Some are there also to pass on their hate and I despise them -telling outright lies brings chaos there as we have seen -so to sum up I admire the good guys -but I have huge reservations with the likes of the two G,s .have a look at the ravings of
Sanctimonius Maximus just above and do you wonder occasionally I am mistrustful :)

Lynne T

Norm
January 26th, 2009 8:17pm
There was a report over the weekend that Iran had pledged to rebuild Gaza and Saudi had donated $1 Billion dollars. How much more do they need? (sorry if I've posted this twice)

Norm: they make these pledges but seldom keep them, or, if they do, the rebuilding involves Hezbollah Additions -- secret rooms that conceal rocket launchers, or new smugging tunnels.

John j

MattLondon: Early this afternoon I made the observation (but for some reason it does not appear on this page) that as a born white South African, I often found that unless I openly repudiated apartheid, people would assume that I was a racist myself. I also said that I understood that way of thinking, even if I didn't agree with it always. Similarly, Carl needs to repudiate the Hamas charter if he does not want to be tarred with the same Jew-hating brush as the Hamas supporters. So it's not a qestion of being "bundled up" with the nazis if you disagree with certain people on this blog - but if one does not repudiate the same ideology (as reincarned anew as the Hamas charter) then of course you have to be bundled up with them. It's a no-brainer.

fellow traveller

Dixon: You're absolutely right. Singling you out was an error on my part.

It seems Dagobert is just as ignorant as you are, because, irony of irony of ironies, you are simply agreeing with his/her comment.

If you disagree with it, now's your chance to set me straight.

Alan O'Reilly

Re: Alan O'Reilly - I don't know where you obtained your well-known quotation but it ain't Jeremiah XXIX, 7. Its source is apparently - Anonymous ancient proverb, wrongly attributed to Euripides. The version here is quoted as a "heathen proverb" in Daniel, a Model for Young Men (1854) by William Anderson Scott. The origin of the misattribution to Euripides is unknown.
I wonder who published your KJV.....

If W.A. Scott can't attribute the source, he is making it up. For publishers of the KJB, not V, try Oxford or Cambridge University Presses or Eyre and Spottiswoode, formerly The King's Printers.

Adam B.

MattLondon that has to be one of the most wilfully ignorant statements I have read on this blog. Please provide a shred of evidence for your disgusting contention. To make such a comparison is simply not living in reality.

Adam B.

Carl, when Hamas terrorists pulled over a car of a Jewish family, and executed each member in turn, leaving the smallest baby in the car seat for last, aiming a gun at her head from 3 feet and pulling the trigger, was that "just words" or was it an action, an action inspired by, and indeed commanded by, the Hamas leadership and their charter? You also fail to understand that the Hamas charter is not an isolated document, it is indicative of the thinking in a broad swathe of the Islamic world. Unfortunately, you are either unaware of this fact, or you simply aren't bothered by it. But to say "it's just words" shows you have lost the argument, and your refusal to condemn these words says everything about you. In short, you have no credibility.

And as for your your comment about "friends of Israel", may I remind you that support for the Palestinian Arabs has come from quarters such as the Nazis, the Soviets, every dictatorship of the Middle East, the genocidal government of Sudan, Idi Amin, the Holocaust denying President of Iran, the far right and the far left - yes, a great bunch of bedfellows, not exactly celebrated for their love of human rights and peace.

BullCats

The Nazis charter was just words....in 1922. The hysterical and irrational hatred for Israel is due to spiritual reasons, yet the spiritually blind have eyes ... but cannot see.

Dave M

I must admit, I'm surprised the BBC has gotten its act together for once. The truth is were the Beeb to get involved in this charity appeal, yes, it would lose its impartiality. As Melanie states, we know the Beeb has been far from partial before but isn't it the case they've been getting some angry letters of late? People have written in over their disgust over the bias against Israel so my bet is they've had to address this issue. Personally I've got nothing against any charity appeal for injured Palestinian civilians so long as it's not conducted in an anti Israel manner. The snag is Israel is being blamed by the public for the war and this is why the Beeb had to step back. I'm glad they did. I'd also like to see some decent, balanced documentaries in the historical causes of this crisis that represent the Jewish perspective. How's about explaining why it is that after millions of Jews faced death by Nazi persecution they now wish to return to their ancient homeland? Let's also have a debate as to how come Europeans can populate places like South America and Australia without criticism yet Jews should leave Israel?? Is the current anti semitism in fact a legacy of the Roman Empire? The Beeb has shown not a single documentary so far.

stanley Jerusalem

Phil It's just making the point that Carl is very free with his criticism of others but always
falls short of implicating himself. Agent provocateur he may be but brains? I don't think so. Boker Or Habibi!

Carl

Stanley al-Quds - what should I implicate myself about? Your simplistic posting does not have a point.

phil

stanley Jerusalem-its just that he cant see it ,but you have stung him calling you al quds -maybe he want to give you a quddle .ah well, manishtana haleila hazeh :)

Adam B.

Well done Carl,you know the Arabic fro Jerusalem. Know how many times its mentioned in the Quran?

Not once.

greg

the argument may have some point (about certain elements) but it fails massively because it does not distinguish between jewish people and Israel.
Disapproving of Israel, hating their actions is not the same as being anti semetic in any way shape or form.
im guessing anti semites aren't fans of Israel but disliking the actions of Israel does not mean someone, or even the debate as a whole, is anti-jewish.