The Jews of the gathering night

RUTH

So what are Jews who do not like what Israel is doing in their name meant to do?
No, your article ignores completely the excesses of the Israeli Right, and seeks to blame only those whom your fellow Zionists so passionately hate.

Sean

I was reading on the 'scandal' of the German academic convert to islam who, though devout, didn't actually believe that the 'prophet' mohammed ever existed.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/023531.php

One atheist dhimmi at his university stated 'I'm not a muslim but even I'm more muslim than him'.

I found that outrageous on many levels, but frankly when I see the likes of Klein carrying on Goebells work for him I know that, despite my being 100% non-Jewish, I am much, much more Jewish than them...

phil

I saw the incredible Norman Finklestein on press tv the other night ,it was my first time -he spoke in the monologue of a zombie,staring eyes with the most insane analysis of ISRAEL,S position-even the Arab interviewer had to tell him to hurry up,before he fell off his perch- he is a "professor" but has been sacked from his position by the American university that employed him because of his ridiculous views -views which were exposed for what they were by Alan Dershowitz-he is just one of so many fools we have amongst us Ilan Pappe is another -it would be no comfort to me to be walking to the executioner side by side with them muttering but,but.--

-It so often is a cheap way of gaining publicity and income ,nevertheless they need to know that they will be treated in the same way as the assimilated Jews of nazi Germany ,regardless of their protestations .I am as proud to be a Jew as I would have been to be a Christian depending on my parents religion -why? because I am a human being . a child of God.
-

NM

Fair enough, Melanie, but those who hate Israel with more passion than any secular Jew could are hardly "left wing" and irreligious. For example, Neturei Karta. However ugly their demonstrations (see here for example: http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/01/26/one-day-late/), they can and do justify their hatred as based in the Torah, and their reading is not unsound. So, in a sense, to support Israel, it's best to be a little bit secular after all!

Dave

So it's the Jews who object to the accidental killing of children by other Jews who are to blame?
Riiiiiiiiight.

Dixon

But RUTH, that was not what the topic of the piece was about!

Crikey, you don't expect an article about Ford Motors to discuss Mercedes, Audi, Vauxhall, Toyota and the rest do you?

Louise

Melanie, it is a heart-breaking spectacle: so many of these people are examples of what Isaac Deutscher termed the "non-Jewish Jew", so well exemplified by that lovely little Revolutionary, Rosa Luxemburg, who declared that the oppression and suffering of her own people, the Jews, left her unmoved. Truly, such people remind one of the phrase "a friend to every country save his own". And then we have in the ranks of the Jews-against-Israel people who have never stepped inside a shul or eaten a piece of matzo in their lives, but who are able to call themselves Jews because they just happen to have a Jewish mother and are as a result Jewish according to Halakhah. That Jewish label comes in so handy when a useful idiot of the Jewish variety is required for demonising the Jewish state.

Carl

Hysterical! I was worried that you had missed "Self Hating Jews" from yesterday's outburst. I don't think that you care much for Liberals.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Melanie, you are right, some Jewish people you mention above are just sick and mentally fake, NOAM CHOMSKY i don't like what he writes, he is nothing but old fart

logdon

Ruth, I take it then that you feel that Jews do not deserve a homeland? This homeland is under a renewed racist attack by people who would wish to see the 'Jewish Entity' rolled into the sea. As demanded in the immutable Koran by the way. Try reading the Hizb ut Tihrir site's removal of occupancy philosophy. That 'occupancy' isn't about Gaza or the West Bank but the State of Israel itself. In other words the total ethnic cleansing of a whole country. Then what? Did Hitler say after the annexation of the Sudetenland, 'alright lads we've got our ethnic rights sorted, let's settle down for a bit of peace now?' You know the answer. We all do. And that includes the Dutch who now seem hell bent on inviting another totalitarian epoch into their history.

Original Tony

The point is that the western world has received all of its moral standards (of old) from the Jewish people. Many of our laws in courts are based on their beliefs and faith.
Now, however, through this dreadful thing called 'liberalism', where anything goes and morals don't count, there will be people who come to despise the conservative, moral laws of old. So why should some liberal Jews be any different from the rest of humanity?
It's people who are willing to fraternize with evil that will be the most ardent haters of Judaism. And everywhere we look this liberal stranglehold is taking a hard grip on society. Just look at Obama agreeing with abortions!
Whether we like it or not, the world is becoming so liberal (read evil) that there are few bastions that stand against this trend and the ancient laws of Israel (not current liberal Israel) are being tested to the core.
It all translates into anti-semitism.

Original Tony

Ruth....Jews who hate Israel now belong to the new liberal mould, just as you do. Liberal=anti-establishment=evil.
So, no matter whether you are Jew or Muslim or Yank or Brit or whatever, the lawlessness of liberalism will eventually attack what is not liberal and the biggest bastion of conservatism today is Israel (for all her faults) and thank God for her!!

Romo

Ruth, maybe if you and your like had any sense, they might actually think before they speak and write about how much they 'hate what Israel is doing' in their name, instead of contributing to this hysterical wave of anti-Semitism. But no, you always have to join in with the rest of the Jew haters. More fool you. Amazing how you just have to include 'Zionist', as if it were the most insulting word you can think of.

Stever

So are Jews that dont agree with the Melanie Phillips World view all jew-haters?

Brad Brzezinski

A good start Ruth, would be to recognise that what you believe to be excesses, are rational actions. It is only in the case of Israel that the media has hysterics; same for the UN, the EU and certain British MPs.

Conservative Cabbie

"Given the virulent anti-Zionist advocacy of so many prominent Jewish self-haters, one remains skeptical of ever achieving collective assent or reasonable consensus."

Why should the Jews, or any other collective identity, achieve "collective assent" or a "consensus". It is this sort of attitude that has conservative blacks being labelled as 'Uncle Toms'.

I accept that the Jews have a history of being persecuted which might lend itself to a unification under a self-defensive umbrella, but Jews have another great tradition, that of being free thinkers. The world is better because of a long tradition of great Jewish thinkers and forcing so many differently shaped pegs into a single round zionist hole would inhibit the potential for the Strausses, Hayeks, Friedmans and Einsteins of this world.

Cynical Barry

Ruth,
Israel is not doing it in Your Name.
That is the Collective Guilt forced on you by the rest of the World in their constant harassing of the Jews. And instead of you putting the MSM right about this you instead attack other Jews.
You are trying to find refuge in the bosom of those who hate you most by running with them.
What are the excesses of the Israeli Right?
Those assertions made by the likes of Pappe and his lying doctoral students, the holocaust deniers Finkelstein, Chomsky and ilk?
The biased and twisted media?

AF Austin, Texas

Thank you for addressing this issue. I've wondered why so many here are blind to history. You have somewhat cleared that up for me. Years ago I looked closely and realized most of my best friends were Jewish and non 'religious'. I could have cared less. I loved them.

They were amazed I 'believed' in God. I was amazed they didn't.

Now, years later I see patterns in their politics and the inability to think outside of the box they climbed into years ago. I was never really in it just until I got what they are 'supposed' to teach you in University....to think for yourself. So much for free thinking.

droog

Why is it that conservatives approve when Clarence Thomas talks tough to blacks or when Ayaan Hirsi Ali renounces her religion, but if Jews are critical of Israel they are self-hating Jews?

Stop censoring Jewish opinion, they can disagree about the issues and reject the heritage thrust upon them just like anybody else.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

How can you call this people Jewish? they don't respect Judaism if it is religion, people and culture, they may say they are Jewish, but I wonder if they really are?

They could just be Gypsies with semitic names

Robin

As for my house, we will support the Jews - God's people.

Oliwagino Alefava Yihiri

All this anti Jewish, anti religion, anti God, anti marriage, anti respect it is the fashionable thing to do now, in the west liking bad things is very cool with the liberals, the French call some of this people Bobos and Naomi Klein is one of them, "no Logo" what does this suppose to mean? is she is trying to be bohemian or something?

So, if this Jewish academics talk bad about there beautiful culture that their parents and grand parents loved, what is next?

Maurice, MD

To Ruth -- These un-Jews are not criticiing -- fairly or unfairly -- any specific act by Israel.
They are against Israel existing at all.
Not the same thing at all.

NM -- The Neturei Keter get no regard and carry no weight outside of their own very small numbers.
The un-Jews of whom Melanie is writing are well-known and influential people who have an effect on what the public thinks.
Not the same thing at all.

Grumpy the Real

Analyse this:

You gotta wonder what sort of childhood these 'nudniks' had.
Always pretending to be something else in the company of whoever.
Always keeping up the charade, so they could gain acceptance in their eyes.
Play acting until they were able to finally convince themselves.

These are not people of worth or substance - thats all been squeezed out, till what you have left is a bastard in all respects.

With people like these - Masada could yet fall again.
They are the worst of the worst, and a shame on all our houses.

Reg

I worked out ages ago that leftists were suffering in varying degrees from mental illness, personality disorders or ego imbalances.

Perhaps these Jew-hating Jews are simply variations of the same phenomenon (as are militant animal rights activists).

fellow traveller

I'm totally with Cabbie on this one, which is a first.

Isn't this blog all about the right to think freely? Strong debate within any community strengthens it. If it didn't, then there would be no point in a site like this, for example.

How can someone be labelled a "turncoat" just by not agreeing with a group they are part of *only by the accident of their birth*?

(And I disagree with David Solway on the quality of Pinter's plays too)

xander

As long as the Arabs have huge amounts of petro-dollars there will be some who see merit in whatever the Arabs want. I have Europe's export oriented economies in mind and her apologists.

Sebastian B. O. Bunionstow IV.

Sounds like modern-day Judas.

Patrick

You're only noticing this now? This is a universal if unlovely human trait. Read the Screwtape letters, for instance.

Try replacing Jew in your column with Catholic, Mormon, American, Western, or European. You'll find it still reads the same. This is the universal leftist trick of demonizing all order - whether represented by Rome, Athens, or Jerusalem - by getting its members who can also claim membership in (though they have no allegiance to) some entity with standards to tear down those standards from within. But they pull it on everybody. "Hey, I used to be a Republican / policeman / Southern Baptist, and I know from first-hand experience how hate-filled they all are."

Terry

Melanie, with the anti-Israel Jews, is it at bottom an attempt to assimilate, an unconscious trying to strike a bargain that if we think like this you'll leave us alone and treat us as one of you?

Judy K. Warner

Droog, Did you notice that Melanie Phillips is talking tough to Jews?

And why do you call criticism of people she disagrees with "censoring"? She's not the government; she has no power to censor. Or did you mean "censuring"? Many on the left think only they are allowed to criticize; when conservatives do it that's called censorship or hate speech or some other negative term.

James Christie

'to dress up their bigotry as high-minded conscience'. Dear melanie that's so true. Thankyou for puting into words what I could not express.

Dan Schwartz, Sayreville, New Jersey

Here's the "Cliff Notes" version of Melanie's article:

"Liberalism is a Mental Illness"

hat tip: Michael Savage

Murray Rubin

"logdon
Ruth, I take it then that you feel that Jews do not deserve a homeland?"

No, the Jews do not deserve a homeland. No one deserves a homeland. We live where we live, and if the people next door are of a different faith or ethnic background, so be it.

This homeland nonsense is the root of the whole problem. When you start dividing people based on their skin, creed, or culture, you encourage misunderstanding.

Grow up and learn to get along with your neighbors or you'll sentence your grandchildren to a life of violence and despair.

Murray Rubin

When violent Jews are reduced to blaming the "bad" Jews, they demonstrate the weakness of their cause.

Sy Dill

To paraphrase Churchill, non-Jewish Jews have the belief that if you keep feeding the tiger, that you will be the last one eaten!'

Raymond in DC

Regarding Neturei Karta, NM writes, "they can and do justify their hatred as based in the Torah, and their reading is not unsound." It's not based on Torah itself, but on their own reading of later texts. They go even beyond those teachings, aligning themselves with Israel's enemies. For that reason, NK - who don't number more than a few hundred at most - have been rejected even by the ultra-orthodox Satmers who themselves claim to be anti-Zionist, but won't stand with those like NK who collaborate with those spilling Jewish blood. (When Arafat wanted a Minister for "Jewish" Affairs, he chose someone from NK.)

Rose

A bit over 30 years ago I moved to London as a student.I found accommodation in what I later realised was a Jewish area.
Some weekends I did childminding to supplement my income.All the homes I did babysitting for were Jewish and they were mostly lovely people.I soon realised the diversity within Judaism.
For instance on one occasion a mother who was an academic, secular and knew I was non Jewish asked me if I also babysat for Religious Jews.I replied that I had watched the children of Orthodox and Non Orthodox families. She then stsrted to be critical of them and said the way they lived was madness.
I remember afterwards just being baffled. How could a Jew have rejected her heritage so much and now have beliefs akin to a Vanessa Redgrave.
And if she thought the lifestyle of Religious Jews was madness how come the atmosphere in the homes I did babysitting for was warm and loving and their children were happy and well adjusted.

Louise

Cabbie and F.T., you probably know the adage - "two Jews, three opinions". Read Melanie's post again - she's not condemning Jews for holding a variety of opinions (indeed, holding various opinions is not only the hallmark of any Jewish gathering but is the strength of Israel's democratic pluralism), she's condemning Jews who in a time of mortal danger for their brethren in Israel, collude with the enemy that's bent on Israel's destruction by aiding and abetting the delegitimisation and demonisation of Israel. Since in Judaism the traditional concept of Jewry is as "K'lal Yisrael" - the community of Israel, in which "all Israelites are responsible for one another" - this conduct at a time of mortal danger is akin to the actions of a Haw Haw. There is a clear difference between people such as - for instance - Rabbi Danny Rich, who recently declared that he could not in conscience attend the Trafalgar Square Rally organised by Anglo-Jewry, and people who argue that Israel's actions justify calls for an end to the Jewish State. Rabbi Rich and his ilk have expressed their love for and commitment to Israel, and genuinely believe that current actions are not in that country's longterm interest. Those who act as fellow travellers with those who seek the extinction of Israel - such as the "celebrity" who described the need for a Jewish homeland as "crap", betray only hostility to Israel in its struggle to survive, and evince no sympathy with that beleaguered little State whatsoever.

Jerry

Re fellow traveller and Cabbie: Yes indeed this blog is all about the right to think freely. That is what Melanie is doing when she criticizes these folk - giving vent to the notion that these Jews who would not give two cr*ps about Jews dying in Israel in its defense need to have some reasonable opposition.

Chris

Articles like this make me uncomfortable because the author implies that anyone who disagrees with Israeli policies or criticizes the State of Israel, is a "jew-hater".
Is it possible to disagree with a particular action by the government of Israel without being an anti-semite? Of course! But it appears many people here don't think so.

Wilhelm

Ruth sweetheart

The problem is, the guilt ridden liberal, self hating, Jewish person doesnt want Israel to be a country in the first place, dahling.

Dave

Reg: So if I have this right then your worldview is... everyone who isn't me is a "mentalist" ?
Sophisticated stuff!

hadrian

I speak not as a Jew but as a calvinist Christian who has numerous Jewish friends- orthodox, reform and converted to Christianity. All I can say is, whether or not one is atheoretical 'zionist' or not thr practical situation is Israel exists and generations have now been born there and know no other home. Do those who oppose this fact consider that they are in effect calling for, at the very least, yet another Jewish 'pogrom' that could well tip over into a renewed genocide? Do we really want this on our hands? I for one abhor the very idea. If their islamic neighbours were only far less hostile to their very existence as a people, let alone as a nation, then perhaps the reasonable Israelis would finally be able to co-exist in some sort of peacable arrangement. Sadly the anti-Semitic streak in Islam makes this nigh on impossible.
One can understand why some Jews have been leftist in their politics- after all, it was the 'right' that traditionally were their worst persecutors. Now, oddly and with horrible irony, it is some of those rightist groups that proclaim their solidarity with their Jewish fellow-countrymen - though personally I would not touch such groups with a barge pole! That some extremist right anti-Semitism is alive and kicking can be seen in the ultra reactionary Roman Catholic StPiusX Socitey's Bishop Williams' recent sick denial of what the unspeakable Nazis got up to in their 'Final Solution'.

Pot Head

Mel you missed Jonathan Freedland in your nasty rant.

http://www.thejc.com/articles/why-i-did-not-rally-israel

"But that was not quite right. On Sunday morning, the Observer carried a letter from leading Jews sharply criticising Operation Cast Lead. The signatories were not the usual suspects; they could not be dismissed as marginal or, heaven forbid, “self-hating” Jews.

They included the leaders of Liberal and Reform Judaism in Britain, along with the pre-eminent British scholar of Jewish history, David Cesarani, and the architect of Holocaust Memorial Day, Michael Mitzman. Baroness Julia Neuberger was there, as was that indefatigable fighter against antisemitism, Shalom Lappin.

They declared themselves to be “profound and passionate supporters of Israel”. But they warned that Cast Lead “could strengthen extremists, destabilise the region and… threaten to undermine international support for Israel”.

josil

It would merely be a question of free speech if some Jews were opposed to Israeli actions. For Israel, it is a question of survival.

Sandra

"...the Arab and Muslim agenda of the destruction of Israel and genocide against the Jews..."

Your assertion that Arab people and Muslims have an agenda of genocide against Jews is a libelous slur against an entire ethnic group and an entire religion and is just as wrong-headed and immoral as the ravings of antisemites who accuse Jews of eating Christian babies or conspiring to take over world financial markets. It's sickening that you can't see that by promoting lies about Muslim people and Arab people, you are on the same level with the worst of the antisemites.

Dan Schwartz in New Jersey

American talk radio host Mark Levin is discussing this story by Melanie right now! It starts 14 minutes into the second hour (7:14PM EST) of tonight's broadcast.

http://www.marklevinshow.com/

Brian Moshe

When I am in England I belong to a Reform Jewish congregation. On Sunday I was doing some research on-line about the very subject of traitor-Jews that Melanie writes about above.

To my horror I discovered that an elected and senior office-holder of my congregation has signed a statement supporting various untenable and to me unacceptable 'solutions' by which Israel would somehow attain peace with a 'Palestinian' state. Sheer liberal make-believe.

Slaughtering a chicken and trying to read the entrails would be about as meaningful as reading this drivel with its large number of Jewish signatures. Yet these Jews really think that all that is needed is a bit of 'goodwill' and a bit of withdrawal here and there and somehow there will be an end to the Middle East conflict.

Our congregation office-holder is now someone I don't really think I'll be comfortable with anymore. I believe from memory that Melanie calls this group 'Jews for Genocide'.

The Guardian recently published a letter deploring the Israeli campaign against Hamas signed by (it was claimed) 38 Jews. When I checked the letter on-line I discovered that many of the names actually appeared twice, although not consecutively, even if there were 38 names it looks a lot more by this curious inflatory process.

Some of the signaturies that signed the statements I have already referred to appear on a 'Jews for Justice for Palestinians' letter that was published in the Guardian some time ago.

I would say to Melanie, I wish such Jews didn't belong to a congregation I belong to. If I'd been a little older in the early 1940s I wouldn't have wanted to be friendly with Jews who signed letters calling for 'Jews for Justice for Fascists' demanding immediate release of men and women held under 18b emergency legislation, or who thought all Britain and the Allies needed to do was show the nazis and the Japanese 'goodwill'.

Funny, isn't it that one never sees letters published in the liberal media signed by 38 (or so) Arab figures calling for immediate ends to Hamas or Hezbullah war crimes or suggesting ways to appease Israel in case it becomes 'more extreme'.

It is truly sickening that sixty four years to the day that Auschwitz was liberated, seemingly intelligent and educated Jews can so wantonly ignore the lessons of these last sixty four years.

colin c

"They do it to no other country". Barbara Roche - first NuLab Immigration Minister.

Wilhelm

Sandra, Luv

6 Arab countries started wars against Israel 3 times. The Israel army whipped the Arab armys asses.

So There !

Antonia

To Ruth and all Israeli critics here:
This MEMRI reported video is of an Egyptian cleric 'commemorating' Holocaust.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=322_1233073285

I dare all the Israeli critics here to see this video and respond.
I believe that this video must be seen to understand what danger the Israelis and Jews in general are dealing with. Please keep in mind that it is what is being shown on Egyptian television. Egypt, is the 'moderate' Muslim country to which we keep pumping billions to reward their supposed moderation peace with Israel.

L.J. Miller

What a wonderful, tragic piece. I just read this aloud to my uncle; I wish I could read it aloud to the world; to our dangerous and pathetic brethren of whom you write so well; to the empty, twisted souls, Jewish and not, filling the bottomless hole in themselves with inverted values and the terrible opiate of Jew-hatred.

I'm sorry if it's embarrassing to hear, but... God bless you.

shlemil

In Soviet Union when I was 5 I wanted to change my name to Ivan.At 13 I hated everything Jewish and that dirty Yiddish language my parents spoke at home.At 16 I wanted to change my "nationality" in my Soviet Passport to "Russian". At 18 I had some conversations with KGB officials who among other things explained that being called a "kike" is a normal and old Russian tradition.At 19 I had a long beard and secretly celebrated Passover. At 20 I was dispatched to the soviet mental institution.At 23 I arrived in the US. I did NOT go to Israel.For the most part I do not like Israeli people. I am an atheist.Every day of my life I pray that Israel survives!...I could have been a successful self-hating Jew.I ended up as extremely unsuccessful proud Jew...Five minutes of practical involvement with genuine Jew-haters would be a great lesson for all these people.

Terry

Free speech used to be a cornerstone of western democracy. Freedom to lie and slander Jews, relied upon by traitorous Jews, is racism, unless based on truth.

Most 'Jewish' traitors are more interested in pursuing their extremist left wing agenda than they are about preserviing Jewish religion, Jewish culture or even the Jewish People. Whilst we live in a democracy with some passing acknowledgemnt of the right of free expression, we can merely counter their lies by stating truth.

If they manage to overcome democratic norms and become part of a leftofascist establishment of self appointed rulers......

Well, if they manage that, then they become targets in a war.

We know who they are.

Nules Thudd

Sandra:

"assertion"?

One only needs read the Qur'an, listen to the blood-thirsty Imams who scream "Imshi al Yehud!" and "Itbach al Yehud!" and then to the millions who retort in chorus "Al mawt al Yahud!" to understand that this is not an assertion.

One only needs look at the 21 Judenrein Arab nations to understand that this is not an assertion.

And further, one only needs look throughout the world where Muslim and non-Muslim adjoin to understand that this is not an assertion. Bali, Bosnia, Chechnya, Darfur, India, Israel, the Maldives, Maluku, Nigeria, the Philippines and Thailand make the assertion a fact.

Conservative Cabbie

Louise

"she's not condemning Jews for holding a variety of opinions she's condemning Jews who in a time of mortal danger for their brethren in Israel, collude with the enemy that's bent on Israel's destruction by aiding and abetting the delegitimisation and demonisation of Israel."

You don't win a debate, no matter how righteous, by demonising and suppressing opposition thought. you engage with the arguement and win by the force of your reason. Anti-Zionism, whilst I don't agree with it, is a legitimate arguement. A boycott is a legitimate form of protest. Apocalyptic censorious polemicism will not improve the validity of Mel's or your arguement, all it does is allow the "enemy's" fellow travellers to dismiss your arguement as demagoguery.

Conservative Cabbie

Jerry

"Yes indeed this blog is all about the right to think freely. That is what Melanie is doing when she criticizes these folk"

And I have no problem with her right to do so. The problem is, she seems to have a problem with a person having a contrarian viewpoint and that is a rocky road to travel down.

Would you find this offensive?:

"The result of all this is that the African-American agenda of the destruction of White America....is advanced every time a white-hating white man spews such venom into the public sphere"

Could come straight from the KKK couldn't it? Of course, this is a sentence from Melanie's article above with just the principal participants changed. Here's her sentence to save you scrolling back up:

"The result of all this is that the Arab and Muslim agenda of the destruction of Israel and genocide against the Jews is advanced every time a Jew-hating Jew spews such venom into the public sphere"

Shaun Harbord

Anyone seeking a more balanced, less hysterical view of the Middle East might try the article by Henry Siegman,one of the demons mentioned by Ms Phillips above. He is a former national director of the American Jewish Congress and of the Synagogue Council of America in the latest edition, available online, of the London Review of Books.

Carl

Well said Sandra, it is a foul and utterly untrue accusation.

Laila Tamaari

Sandra no one promotes lies about Muslim or Arab people, there are weird ones in amongst the Muslims like any other cultures, look yesterday I saw a Muslim woman beating up her child of 6 years old to wear hijab, she was shouting front of all this posh western people, no one say anything even the head teacher, I know that child will suffer psychologically when she grows up because she is force to dress up differently then her classmates, but the liberals like you don't care, why the British government sending troops to Afghanistan and Iraq to free woman and children when there are people who need to be free in this country? where in the Quran tells you a child should cover her hair? Muslim people like the mother of this child should be named and shamed even arrested, I am Muslim and I think people should post what they feel, right now in the west there is a lot of cultural misunderstanding and cultural shocking!

Nules Thudd

Sandra:

"assertion"?

One only needs read the Qur'an, listen to the blood-thirsty Imams who scream "Imshi al Yehud!" and "Itbach al Yehud!" and then to the millions who retort in chorus "Al mawt al Yahud!" to understand that this is not an assertion.

One only needs look at the 21 Judenrein Arab nations to understand that this is not an assertion.

And further, one only needs look throughout the world where Muslim and non-Muslim adjoin to understand that this is not an assertion. Bali, Bosnia, Chechnya, Darfur, India, Israel, the Maldives, Maluku, Nigeria, the Philippines and Thailand make the assertion a fact.

Ronnie

Another lazy, childish rant.

Those Jews who don't agree with Melanie's line are mentally ill self-haters. 'Those who are not for us are against us.'

How low, and essentially empty, can Melanie's disgusting polemic get? I wonder who pays her to pour this stuff out?

And absolutely 100% 'here here!' to Cabbie. Melanie will NOT be joining the pantheon of great Jewish thinkers.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Ruth: Jews who do not like what Israel is doing to stay alive are perfectly free to protest. Its possible to object to a country's policies without comparing it to Nazi Germany or repeating bizarre, hate-filled propaganda as fact.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Dave: All decent Jews-the vast majority of Jews-in and out of Israel, are devestated by the ugly fact that Hamas shoots at Israel from booby-trapped civilian neighborhhods, forcing the Israelis to shoot back and kill the Arab children Hamas is using as human shields. Nobody shoots at the Arabs from behind children, because they know the Arabs have no qualms about shooting back and killing children.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Louise: I think the phrase you have in mind is "The idiot who praises, with enthusiastic tone/ All centuries but this and every country but his own."

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear NM: If you read David Solway's article, he deals with Neturei Karta, pointing out that safety is not always in Numbers.

Carl

Miranda R_S, another lazy, racist generalisation about Arabs from you.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear mr. Schwartz: Where does Ms. Phillips say that everyone who doesn't agree with her is a "mentalist?"

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Dave: Sorry. I read your posting wrong. Dear Mr. Schwartz: Where does Ms. Phillips say that liberalism is a mental illness?

Miranda Rose Smith

Do these people really think they'll survive the rampaging violence against Jews that will follow the destruction of the state of Israel?

phil

Stever was that mere sarcasm ? your answer if you really needed it is no.We regularly disagree with one another,but that is not what we are talking about here !FINKLESTEIN,PAPPE et al accuse and lie incessantly,destructively -I will leave you to work out what I mean .

phil

Murray Rubin wonderful thought .but wasn.t too practical in Berlin 1933 was it ?and I do not think you would survive for long in Syria, gaza,etc etc .

Miranda Rose Smith

A bit off topic, but I myself have wondered if Harold Pinter won the Nobel Prize for Literature more for his anti-American rants than for his plays. Did anyone besides me think, on hearing that Pinter had won the Prize, "'Streetcar Named Desire' and 'The Glass Menagerie' are both better plays than 'The Birthday Party;' why didn't Tennessee Williams, of blessed memory, win?"

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Carl: I see Arabs every day and they're the same RACE I am. Hamas uses children as human shields. Its a fact. Nobody uses children as human shields when they're shooting at Arabs. Its a fact.

Louise

Brian, there is a senior Jewish educationist at university level who teaches courses on Jewish history and on Israel; astonishingly, over the years, that person has also signed statements that most people would interpret as undermining Israel. I have also seen an online photo of the same person wearing what looks uncomfortably similar to one of those keffiyeh (pardon my spelling)scarves. It really does make me fearful of what is being taught to their students.
One of the most incisive and charismatic Jewish leaders of our time, Isi Leibler of Israel, has often written similarly to Melanie regarding the Jews who betray Israel: his latest piece is called "Diaspora Jews and the war" and is online. I couldn't provide the link because the "Jerusalem Post" site is too heavy with traffic at present. All of Isi Leibler's pieces are worth reading. He is a Mizrachist.

David

Firstly, what does 'anti-Israel' mean? To criticise Israel is not to be against the existence of Israel, surely?

What's wrong with debate?

What's wrong with criticising actions that one believes are harmful to the long-term interests of Israel?

And, I know it's off topic, but instead of attacking, could anyone offer me a cogent defence of the settlement building in the West Bank? Just curious...

yank in london

Dear Ms. Phillips - I wait with bated breath for your scathing attack on the Roman Catholic pontif for his shameful reinstatement of a holocaust denier. How much longer must I wait?

michael

The issue is not criticism as such but rather criticism that is used to support, or to cover for, the view that the very existence of Israel has no legitimacy.
Such a view argues that the very existence of Israel is a crime that can only be redressed by its elimination or alternatively that Israel's crimes are so egregious that she forfeits her right to exist. To make this latter claim exaggerated claims are required because it is never said of any other country that its deeds warrant its elimination.

Yael Kahn

Melanie is attacking anyone who dares criticising Israel for committing atrocities. As an Israeli who is outraged by the Israeli slaughter of civilians in Gaza, I suggest you read Israeli statements of their intentions for Gaza:
1. Reserve Colonel Yoav Gal said on 11 Jan 09: "I believe that it should have been even stronger! Dresden! Dresden! The extermination of a city! "
2. Professor Arnon Sofer said on 24 May 04: "And women and children will be killed, and houses will be destroyed… it's going to be a human catastrophe… if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day ... If we don't kill, we will cease to exist ... Gaza is going to be such a disaster that it will be beyond our capacity to help. There will have to be large-scale international aid. The US will have to pressure Egypt to cede land."
3. Meir Sheetrit, Minister of the Interior, threatened Gaza on 10 Feb 08: "We must take a neighbourhood in Gaza and wipe it off the map".
4. Mordechai Eliyahu, former Sephardi chief rabbi, declared in May 07 that it was forbidden to risk the lives of Jews in Sderot or the lives of IDF soldiers for fear of injuring or killing Palestinian non-combatants living in Gaza. Subsequently his son Shmuel Eliyahu, chief rabbi of Safed/Tzfat, explained that his father advocated: "If they don't stop after we kill 100, then we must kill a thousand, and if they do not stop after 1,000 then we must kill 10,000. If they still don't stop we must kill 100,000, even a 1,000,000. Whatever it takes to make them stop." www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180527966693&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
5. Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger on 18 Jan 08 called for the Palestinians in Gaza to be transferred to the Sinai desert.
6. Booklet distributed to soldiers during the invasion of Gaza by the Israeli army's chief rabbi Avichai Rontzki "When you show mercy to a cruel enemy, you are being cruel to pure and honest soldiers. This is terribly immoral." www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1058758.html
6. Maj.-Gen. (Reserve) Giora Island (Eiland) said in Dec 08, after the onslaught started: Israel should not confine its attacks to military facilities, but must hit civilian targets as well. The damage to the civil population should be maximized, because the worse the humanitarian crisis is, the better and the sooner the operation would end.
There is the more well known threat by Matan Vilnai with "Shoah" on 29 Feb 08 and the fact that in spite of this he kept his post as the Deputy Defence Minister...
The already malnourished children in Gaza [see www.savethechildren.org.uk/en/41_7304.htm], because of the Israeli imposed siege, are one of the Israeli declared targets. They cannot defend themselves, so it is left for us, people who deplore military onslaughts of defenceless occupied people.

Jim C.

phil
Please tell me where Dershowitz has refuted a SINGLE thing Finkelstein wrote in his attack on the Case for Israel (Beyond Chutzpah). Just one from the book will do (and when you've done that then list all the allegations F. levels at Dersh. in the book and see if Dersh has successfully rebutted A SINGLE ONE. If you can't be bothered to read the relevant books I suggest you keep your peace.

herb glatter

Ruth and Jews of her stripe confirm that the only time Jews are united is in the gas chamber.

Dr Paul

Having known for several years a number of anti-Zionist, left-wing Jews, my feeling is that their views are at least partially fired by the way that Israel's continued policies towards the Palestinians are a betrayal of the Jewish cultural heritage, a heritage that I (a non-Jew) feel has benefited all humanity.

Being members of an ethnic/religious group that has suffered from appalling oppression over the years, they are appalled that the state of Israel has consistently ill-treated another ethnic group over its six-decade history.

It is apologists of Israeli policies, such as Ms Phillips, who associate all Jews with Zionism -- and thus with the crimes committed by Israel -- who are fuelling anti-Semitism, not those Jews who wish to see the Hebrew nation in the Middle East live at peace with their Arab neighbours.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Yael Kahn: Ms. Phillips HAS criticized Israel for committing atrocities.

Louise

Okay, Yael.
But please tell us what you would have Israel do against Hamas, a jihadist organisation committed it the destruction of the Jewish State and to the extermination of Jews all over the world.
I take it that you are no less vehement in your denunciations of Hamas aims and statements (including its Charter) as you are the statements of the Jewish Israeli individuals you have quoted here?

Carl

Miranda R-S, then you should know better than to make hateful generalisations, shouldn't you?

Adam B.

Dr Paul what a disgusting comment. You are saying that Jews are bringing anti-Semitism on themselves. THINK before you write such offensive nonsense. And what condescending gall to imply that Ms Phillips and other supporters of Israel don't want peace.

In my experience, most of the Jews to whom you refer are hardly Jewish in their daily lives, are not involved with the community or religion and suddenly discover their Jewishness only when it comes to attacking Israel.

David

Instead of comparing how vehemently we can denounce each other, how about suggesting what can be done, on both sides, to improve the lives of Israelis and Palestinians?

Doesn't Israel have to address the issue of settlements in order to strengthen the hand of Palestinian moderates?

alex

In 1943-44, when Jews were slaughtered in unprecedented numbers, Yael and other "mercifool" Jews would be crying about sufferings of innocent citizens in bombed Hamburg and Cologne. And remember, more Arabs voted Hamas in power who openly declared their Jew-murder policy than Germans voted Hitler. And I never heard that German mothers sent their children to murder Jews as do Arab mothers. Jew murder in Germany was not made public. Although it would be hard to imagine more Jew hating people than Germans, Arabs surpassed them in Jew hatred. Indeed, who is merciful to cruel will be cruel to merciful. And never in history of warfare there was more merciful army than IDF, to detriments of its soldiers.

Jake

I shall not be made to feel guilty by anti-intellectualism.

Brian Moshe

Margaret Muller-Johansson wrote:
January 27th, 2009 5:35pm
"How can you call this people Jewish? they don't respect Judaism if it is religion, people and culture, they may say they are Jewish, but I wonder if they really are?
They could just be Gypsies with semitic names"

Margaret Muller-Johannson - I usually thoroughly enjoy your comments very much, but I am upset to read your comment above suggesting that the sort of Jews Melanie is criticising are not really Jews but "just Gypsies".

There is no reason why a Jew can't also be a Gypsy if their mother is Jewish and their father is a Gypsy. In fact I know a Gypsy (and his family) who lives in England who has a Jewish mother and although he knows almost nothing about Judaism and regards himself as a 'Traveller' he is in fact still a Jew.

Secondly, don't you think it rather distasteful to write of 'just Gypsies'. The Gypsy people were, along with the Jewish people, targeted by the nazis for total destruction and despite around half a million victims, it is only in recent years that this has even been acknowledged.

Some Jews even deny that there was a Gypsy Holocaust and claim it was quite different in the Gypsies' case and put forward ludicrous arguments to support their claims. Such Jewish deniers (who include some leading academics) are just as guilty of denying reality as the sort of self-deceivers, like Henry Siegman, who think they can deny the realities of Hamas and of jihadi goals.

Karl

This is nothing but unsupported and ill-argued vitriol.

Ronnie

herb glatter, I hope you are proud of that unspeakable remark.

You are a disgrace on every conceivable level.

Donna Gardier

To: Oliwagino Alefara Yihiri @ 5.59pm - Well put.

To: Murray Rubin @ 8.43pm Murray do you believe everyone is safe and cuddly and fluffy? And do you believe that we do not have to worry if we plant our children in an environment with contradictory moral/immoral/radical/liberal/violent/passive mixed messages. Surely it’s a strong survival instinct to find a place to grow amongst people with whom you have some affinity and shared beliefs, and ideally why not aim for somewhere with great affinity and strong healthy authentic shared beliefs? This means with the diverse nature of the human race there will be differences (thank goodness) and in order for differences to thrive we need a healthy mutual respect for the borders that allow differences to thrive. In my opinion we’re seeing far too many people trying to delude themselves that a mishmash works better?

To: Rose @ 9.35pm Quite!

To: Brian Moshe @1.02am many thanks for yet another informative and enlightening post.

To: Conservative Cabbie @ 4.05pm and Fellow Traveller @ 6.52pm
Stauss Hayek Friedman et al – Surely it is largely that they are a healthy product of their nurturing culture that they achieved their potential. I would say that because the boundaries of Judaism are so strong and clearly defined it is exactly why in contrast their own rebels can test them so strongly.

Surely it is the case that the Jewish culture is so strong it can support the extremes of those within it who display rebellion at the same time as supporting brilliant minds and great contributors to the world. I can understand Melanie’s despair but I feel if any there is any culture that will weather interference from the enemies within, it will be the Jews.

Louise

Miranda, forgive me. I didn't notice your post to me before. Yes, that's the quotation I have in mind! Rather a good one!
Many thanks for that.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Brian Moshe I am sorry if I upset you with my comment above, I don't mean anything is wrong to be a gypsy the word Gypsy can mean many different things, and I know the Gypsies suffer under the Nazis in Germany, before that in Asia or Persia where they was treated some kind of underclass people and I have a feeling they still witness some kind of discrimination in some parts of Europe, on the other hand some people think there mother is Jewish because her name was Rivkah, but that doesn't mean they are they think they are, they don't speak Hebrew, they don't go to the synagogue, they don't have a duty to defend the civil rights, and to seek material and spiritual welfare it is just the name sorry, in my opinion i may be ignorant, but this is how I feel if someone don't believe God and One, they can't be Jewish and those left wing liberal academics that Melanie mention above may not believe the Lord "Adonai Eloheynu Adonai Echad"

Wilhelm

Ronnie squeeeels

''How low, and essentially empty, can Melanie's disgusting polemic get? I wonder who pays her to pour this stuff out?''

Your fake indignation is very tiresome, son.

Brian Moshe

@ Donna Gardier - thank you for your comment to me.

@ Margaret Muller-Johannson, thank you for taking the trouble to respond to my comment. I felt sure you would do so.

Best wishes, Brian Moshe.

Miranda Rose Smith

Off-Topic: Dear Louise: My father, of blessed memory, LOVED Gilbert & Sullivan. He used to take me to the operettas. The quote is from 'The Mikado.'

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Carl: Yes, it was a generalization and perhaps I shouldn't have made it.

Conservative Cabbie

Donna

That was a very good point, although I'm not entirely sure I agree that at their time, any Jew could be entirely sure of their peoples secure place in the world. I think that in many ways, it was the very nature of the uncertainty of diaspora, pogrom and holocaust that forced Jews to be the best at what they are, whether banker, scientist, economist or philosopher, as a form of defense mechanism, an often failed attempt to be seen as useful to society. Just a theory.

Conservative Cabbie

Louise

Firstly, I should point out that I'm very sympathetic to Israel's position.

However, apocalyptic censorius polemics are not the right response to those that seek "the delegitimisation and demonisation of Israel". Their poorly held values need to be challenged with the force of arguement, or respect is loss for what should be a very valid position.

phil

Margaret Muller-Johansson well done I am so glad you said sorry because I did not think it was words that would have come from you -I greatly appreciate all your comments but that one was a mistake again well done

Ronnie

Wilhelm, I'm not your son, pal.

Ronnie

Steady David, you are far too clever for this thread.

Ronnie

Another big 'hear hear!' for Cabbie

phil

Donna Gardier I am delighted that you have started writing now on topic instead of castigating me .you will have noticed that many are now acknowledging one another too.It is of course a good feeling to unburden oneself and speak one,s mind ,if you check back what I write, you will find I debate with all those who write to express their thoughts so long as those thoughts are not filled with hate ,nor are they lies -I am also sure you will find I am polite even when I disagree with them ,as for the others -yes I am rude on occasion when I believe they deserve it .a very subjective matter of course --

.Writing like this is very emotional as no doubt you are finding ,those like Kate A and Adam B and myself express our compassion and I am amazed why you found that not to your taste .You do not appear to be one who is impressed by the carl,s of this world and sundry others like him We seem to have similar views too-If you feel like being rude to me ,so be it that is your privilege but i am intrigued as to why you did it -----------

.May I ask you if you are the singer or is that your pseudonym ? I f you are that person you have a very nice voice and I hope it reflects your real nature and that this unnecessary spat is at an end .I am a nice guy Donna ,most ladies like me (LOL)

phil

Jim C.am I imagining it or did Dersh get him sacked from his job of professor? you know for his outrageous views and a man not suitable for students -or maybe it was the finklestein who is a target for west ham reserves -let me know will you .-------

btw your quote "I suggest you keep your peace."I am happy to oblige but I will not be reading any of his garbage either .I did refute your nonsense elsewhere didn,t I ? sorry but you are most forgettable .

Wilhelm

Another big ' hear hear !' for Melanie.

Jim C.

phil
You have not attended to my questionn - nor have we ever corresponded in any way, shape or form. Finkelstein was not refused tenure for any of the reasons Dershowitz gave (alleged scholarly misconduct). On the contrary, DePaul called Finkelstein a prolific scholar and outstanding teacher. I leave it to others to consider why, after huge pressure from Dershowitz et al. De Paul did not grant Finkelstein tenure.
As to Dershowitz, his scholarly misconduct has been demonstrated, conclusively, by Finkelstein in Beyond Chutzpah, as the University of California Press recognised. I note, finally, that "phil" doesn't (cannot) find a single false claim on Israel/Palestine made in a book by Finkelstein. I trust that this comment will be published - if it isn't I would like to know why such a comment is not allowed to be posted on this site. Yours hopefully.

phil

jim c its probably been put up because noone else can be bothered to read it -if you want to adhere to the teachings of a zombie do so with my compliments

anon

Wow...This is the most ill-concieved article I have ever read. So condeming Israel for slaughtering over 1000 innocent people, many of them children, when there was a clear peaceful alternative (or several) is anti-semetic? What utter ridiculousness! Melanie, I would love to see you give either a defence of Israel or a condemnation of Gaza in as an irrefutable, factual, academic manner as the likes of Chomsky did with his insights into the recent 'war'.

What's all this crap about 'self-hating jews'? Suggesting that all jews should 'toe the party line' rather than speak what's on their mind is pure rubbish. Anti-zionist jews who have the courage to speak out against the atrocities of their 'homeland' should be applauded for their conviction, not belittled by someone such as yourself who appears to be in a state of blissful ignorance. Yourself and other jews who are that paranoid that you feel that there exists some growing anti-semetic 'movement' or 'conspiracy' in society are just as ridiculous as the anti-semites who believe that there is a global jewish conspiracy running the show behind closed doors.

Anyway, I think we're missing the real point here. Religion is stupid, disgusting, tragic and unnecessary. If we all did away with it we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

Yehuda

anon: your levels of knowledge, understanding and logic are commensurate with your spelling ability.