The Iranians look very frightened

Jay

I am Iranian and find this article
offensive and your knowledge of this subject at the best minimal,
educate yourself before writing on this subject again.

Daibhidh MacAdhaimh

Well, what can we expect from the Guardian, an Obama fawning nymphomaniac groupie that it is?
If Bush had offered to talk to Tehran,no doubt this media whore would have twisted his approach as an act of grovelling in order to save face.
I'm surprised too that the ever passive Guardian - except where Kosovo (1995) and Israel is concerned - could even spell 'sabre' far less know what its function was.

David

Yes, because they were clearly so cowed when faced with the neocons. They'd never have thought of developing nuclear weapons when faced with...oh...wait a minute.....

Bill M

Beautiful. Not even two weeks to show to the world how out of touch with reality he is. The world just didn’t exhale. It broke wind.

I could have told you this was a ridiculous approach to Iran and I don't even have the experience of being a Soros-funded Chicago political machine suck-up with a love for Islam, a penchant for obnoxious anarchist friends, and a less than one term as a junior senator.

Ian G

But Melanie, white flags frighten people! That's why they stop shooting, isn't it? Isn't it?

jeremyhavardi.com

Instead of unclenching their fists, Tehran’s leadership have delivered the diplomatic equivalent of a sucker punch.

David

What I love about Mel's approach is that if a statement is inconvenient to her world view, she'll claim deviousness and lies on the part of the speaker, and if it complies, she'll happily take it at face value. You are therefore always right, Mel! Go you!

Mohammad

I'm an Iranian and found western governments as completely idiots and short sighted, because they don't have guts to stand up against the mullahs terrorist regime . they act like cowards and still are looking to find ways to appease this barbaric and dangerous regime . Iranian regime is the most dangerous regime on earth. if the mullahs manage to get their hands on nuclear bomb, no one will be safe on this earth, and that's the beginning of the end. the nuclear wars would be coming soon. if you don't believe it, then wait a little bit more and you will see.

Dixon

The Allies took a mere five years to develop and build the first nuclear weapons. With no-one to help them. Iran is taking decades, even using knowledge and technology acquired from the West.

I recently read "Project Orion" by George Dyson. The extent of sophistication in nuclear technology attained by American bomb designers by the late 'fifties boggles the mind. They could vary the multiple forms in which energy was converted and expressed by a wepon much like a violinist modulates a note. They could specify exact yields, higher or lower. They could even tune the energy emitted from a bomb into a narrow beam travelling in one direction. They could contain nuclear explosions, repel nuclear blasts and model those blasts. By the Sixties they had created the Davy Crocket, a weapon operated by three men, carried in a rucksack by one, with a dial-operated yield selector, that adjusted the power of the weapon down to a few tonnes ( not kilotonnes ) of TNT.

That was nearly half a century ago.

The much vaunted "sophistication" of the Iranians / Persians seems rather hollow by comparison.

Yet in these issues, it is always asumed that such "sophistication" is the balance to their statements, rendering them mere "rhetoric".

Given their abject primitiveness in terms of the technology they want so much would it not be safer to assume that their "sophistication" in "diplomacy" is equally suspect?

Put it another way: their threats to Israel are the bona-fide expressions of hostility of some "sophisticated" bloke down the proverbial pub!

Hanoi Paris Hilton

jay, could you kindly be vastly more specific about what errors and weaknesses you found in Ms. Phillips essay?

Steve bronfman

All too often jihadi apologists like jay make emotive criticisms while completely failing to make even one factual argument against this and other articles. What aspects of the article are ignorant "jay" please enlighten us with your intellect in the great Islamic tradition of scholarship and debate?

Ian Miller

Note that the first link in this article (the word reacted "reacted") is malformed and does not work (it is possible that it works with some browsers but I doubt). The correct link is:- http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.073ba2ee2f1f00668848a4655420fedc.411

However rather reading Brietbart's verbose re-hash you are better reading the original Iranian article at
http://www.mehrnews.com/en/NewsDetail.aspx?pr=s&query=Gholam%20Hossein%20Elham%20&NewsID=824238
which is shorter.

Neil Turner

One morning soon we will wake to "Breaking News" banners across the bottom of our TV screens

They will tell us that Israel has carried out a precision attack on Iran's nuclear facilities

The US is irrelevant here - Israel, in the vanguard of the World War against jihadism, will as usual, deal with it

As usual, the world will publicly condemn, but privately breathe a big sigh of relief. Jeremy Bowen will rush out there with his TV crew. looking for civilian casualties

There will be marches in London, more airtime for Annie Lennox, and more Starbucks windows broken

The West should not worry. Israel is behind you

di Genis

As for the specifics, it is a tiresome old trick of distortion to intentionally shift the argument to the discussion of schizoid facts.

"Will the murderous regime in Iran succeed in their obsession to destroy Israel?"

Ronnie

This 'article' is written in a vacuum, as usual.

Hangmejacketup and his supporters are fighting for his re-election. They appear to be losing in circumstsances where he has almost bankrupted the country while the price of oil is not expected to recover for some time.

He is struggling to retain his political base, just as John McCain struggled and ended up foisting the 'jaw-dropping' Sarah Palin on an amused world. Everything Hangmejacketup says at the moment is for internal consumption, in the context of his election campaign.

It is well-known that there are a number of factions within the Iranian establishment and that it takes some time for a final view on each issue to emerge. Their reaction to the US offer of talks is merely a case in point.

Mel's 'article' is premature, willfully ignorant and disengenious.

I await the moronic accusations of 'appeaser' and the silly exhortations to read the Hamas Charter from the usual cabal of hysterics...

steve

Steve Bronfman: Any effort such as yours to link Iran, a Sh'ite Muslim state, with Sunni groups such as al-Qaeda, shows such a demonstrable ignorance that it is laughable. No one in any position of power takes such views seriously. Can I also point out that Ahmadinejad faces an election before too long and is probably using this as a means of distracting voters from his woeful record when it comes to the Iranian economy.

Louise

Is the Board of Deputies going to protest the BSkyB package that delivers to millions of British homes the Iranian government's propaganda channel?
From the little I've seen of this channel, which began broadcasting a few months ago, it's full of anti-semitic hatred, and on Friday interviewed the Australian Holocaust denier Frederick Toben to help it wage war on the Jews. No doubt the interview will be shown again and again.

Carl

It is absolutely the right thing for the USA to seek rapprochement with Iran. The USA has a new, refreshing regime and it is highly likely that Ahmadinejad will not be re-elected. It is past time for Iran to be a part of the political world again and become a major force for stability in the Middle East.

Michael B

Predictable? Yes, but the MSM will spin it differently.

A show of contempt? Yes, but the MSM will spin it differently.

Obama, continuing to evidence a Carteresque naivete and egoism and ideologically induced myopia? Yes, but the MSM will report it differently and decidedly so.

The lone, solitary "bright spot" in all of this is the fact that Iran's MSM is not as compliant and obsequious toward Iran's regime and Mullahs as the western MSM is toward Barack Obama and his administration in Washington. Or perhaps they are. It's too close to call. Reading the english language "Iran Daily" and how they cover Khamenei, Ahmadinejad and the Mullahs is strikingly similar in tone to how the greater part of the western MSM covers Barack Obama. The salvific sense being conveyed, in both cases, is virtually interchangeable.

Sanchez

Yet another tour de force from the female Richard Littlejohn. I can picture you now writing this in your safe detached house in hamstead joyfully listening to Status quo on the radio.

Dixon

Ronnie, you sorted out where you stand on these matters. I dont accuse of being an appeaser. But I do think you may be a bit too optimistic.My reason for this being as set out in my earlier comment in this thread.

Maura collins.

Jay 9:52pm.
As an Iranian, you seem to believe you have cornered the market on the word 'offensive'. Ever given a thought to how 'offensive' the Western World find the behavior of your peculiar government? Yes I do mean you, Jay, forever with the whinging and complaining of others while these madmen treat your country and her people like serfs, unemployment high, women treated as less than the cattle these men consume, any dissent dealt with in the most severe way, but all you can do is use the shop-worn phrase:
"I am Iranian and find this article offensive and your knowledge of this subject at the best minimal,educate yourself before writing on this subject again." That’s it, that's your best shot? The problem, once again, with those such as you is your refusal to acknowledge that we have your number, can see through the cant you dispense so liberally when dealing with those outside your sphere of thinking, but tell me Jay, what has Iran done for the world TODAY, not the 7th Century, but TODAY?

Jenny

Ian Miller suggests “rather reading Brietbart's verbose re-hash you are better reading the original Iranian article”. Oh, which conveniently leaves out much of what the Iranian spokesman said?

Ronnie says: “Mel's 'article' is premature, willfully ignorant and disengenious.” How is something based on evidence wilfully ignorant or disingenuous? And how do you even know what those two things mean, given that you can’t even spell them? You’re the one who’s ignorant, as usual.

I know it’s highly embarrassing that an Iranian Government spokesman should land you and all the other useful idiots in the ****, but what’s the point in blaming Mel?

Oh, and the other useful idiots here say Iran is having an election, so none of what its government says counts for anything, apparently. In the words of St Barack himself: “Don’t tell me words don’t matter.”

Sanchez

Hanoi-specifically from about the first time she put pen to paper

phil

Jay ,Mohammed .I am absolutely not a supporter (an understatement)of dinnerjacket ,but I am sad to read all this invective to both the state of Iran and its citizens .I utterly despise the government if that's is what it could be called of your state ,but I AM NOT SO BLINKERED AS TO NOT REALISE YOU HAVE BEEN HIJACKED BY AN EVIL REGIME .I have met a good number of Iranian people who also hate this regime and who want normalised relations with the west -it is these people who we should be supporting -yes those that will bring back Iran from the nightmare it is suffering ,and we along with it . I wish Melanie would make that plain,and if I am lucky she will .

An American

Carl,
What flavor of Kool-Aid are you drinking?
You call Obama's presidency a new regime?...oh wait...maybe you're right...regime fits, at least in your socialist world view.
Yes, we all believe that Iran can lead us to enlightenment as can our Great Messiah Obama...

An American

Carl,
What flavor of Kool-Aid are you drinking?
You call Obama's presidency a new regime?...oh wait...maybe you're right...regime fits, at least in your socialist world view.
Yes, we all believe that Iran can lead us to enlightenment as can our Great Messiah Obama...

Barry Larking

The one bright point which time does not seem to dim is the overwhelming, all consuming, vainty of the Persians.

I long ago thought that if these preposterous monomaniacs were capable of being a realistic threat, instead of a nuisance, Israel would deal with them. No bangs yet, so all must be well.

de genis

It's foolish to read these articles. It's even more foolish to comment on them if you disagree with their distorted, tendentious opinions.

An American

Mohammed is the one who really knows of what he speaks...

Weak leaders like Obama, Brown and Rudd will be the death of us all.

Ronnie

Jenny, it interests me that useless idiots like you appear to take everything that the enemy says, as reported and interpreted by Melanie and others, at face value. At the same time you doubt and question everything that reportedly comes out of a western diplomat or leader's mouth.

You deny yourself the opportunity to consider the wider picture and the possibilities that exist therein and that is why you contribute non-posts like yours of 2:39 pm today.

Ironically it is I who wonder who's side you are on.

You are right to raise the spelling issue, it is of crucial importance here.

Augustus

Iran's present leaders, like their proxy forces Hezbollah and Hamas cannot be trusted. They use the example of Muhammed at Khyber (where he deceived the Jews, then killed them when they were not expecting it) as the prototype for every Hudna they have ever signed. It's a temporary measure to recuperate and rearm before attacking the enemy when he leasts expects it, a tactic espoused by Muhammed. The Hamas Charter has very clear views on negotiations and conferences. Most enlightening!

Ronnie

Dixon, all I am saying is this.

We prepare for a military solution and execute it hard, if necessary. That includes not only defeating our enemies but also knowing what we want to do with them once we have done so. I hope we have learned our lessons from Iraq etc in this regard.

At the moment all I hear is a bunch of people who can only think of nuking Iran as soon as possible a mono-strategy that asks as many questions as they think it answers, not least of which is,'what then?'

I'd like us to think about it more.

Hangmejacketup and his friends talk one hell of a lot of rubbish, mostly for internal consumption. I'm actually quite shocked by the number of people contributing to these threads who take him and his crazy gang seriously; Hamas and Hezbollah included.

He and they are to be watched closely and destroyed if necessary. And I hope you can confirm that we have more than enough resource in the region to do it. But they are not Iran, they are a faction within a very complex political and theocratic structure and we would do better if we understood that. We have made many mistakes over the years that have helped these people become stronger and more influential than they might have been. I think they are weaker now than at any time in the last 10 years and so we should take advantage of that.

Some people make seem convinced that we only have one course of action open to us when dealing with Iran - war. Maybe that is how it will turn out and we should be ready for it. However, that does not preclude our exploring other avenues at appropriate times. This seems to be one of those times.

Some people here seem to think we should care what the Iranian regime thinks of us, 'is the West afraid or not afraid of us, do they think we are afraid of them?'

However the point is, who cares what they think. They have chosen to engage in a strategy of violent confrontation with and subversion of their neighbours. They have no real friends, they are surrounded, they cannot win a full-scale confrontation
and we must continue to fight and defeat their terrorist proxies. We must show them that they can never win.

You say I am too optimistic. When did defeatists ever win a war? And this is a war to be fought on many fronts.

And then there are the Saudis...

Straydingo

steve,

I am afraid it is you that is the one that needs re-educating as Shiites and Sunnis have a long history of willingness to unite when it comes to the topic of fighting the Jewish, Christians, Buddhists and the rest of the ‘Unbelievers’ of the world.

There are countless examples that you would unearth in minutes by simply surfing the net....for example Hamas (Sunni) and Hezbollah (Shiite) have a long history of working together...oh, lets no forget the one small detail that Hamas primary source of weaponry is from Shiite Iran

Carl

@An American - only nut-job warmongers would not welcome warmer relations with Iran. As for Kool-Aid, tried it once, disgusting stuff, rather like Socialism, looks nice but has no depth.

Rob

"All too often jihadi apologists like jay make emotive criticisms while completely failing to make even one factual argument against this and other articles"

How is he a jihadi apologist? The Iranian people are actually very westernised and genuinely warm people.

sanchez

oooooooh...Socialism...scary stuff, just like the red mist or the muslim jihad against freedom. Amirkins must unite and fight these dark forces oh except China cos they're really nice now that they are bailing out your economy/lives. Pleeeeaaaase!

An American

Carl,
Glad to know you don't consider yourself a socialist...one less socialist in the world is a good thing.

Ronnie...good blog.
But, you don't have a solution on how to get rid of the dangerous religious extremists in Iran. I don't believe that the Iranian people can just vote them out...there will have to be a more drastic measure. If the Iranian Iman's prophecies are to come true...it looks like 2012 will be the turning point toward Armagedon...someone better do something quick and soon. I don't believe our Messiah, Obama the Great, will do diddly. Israel will have to it, if it is to survive.

Jenny

Ronnie, it interests me that useful idiots like you deny the Iranian government’s aggression, even when it is openly spelt out. This spokesman’s statement simply confirms once again what this government’s agenda has been all these years while the useful idiots have sought to deny its aggression. Yet here you are saying Ms Phillips has ‘interpreted’ it.

Ms Phillips has consistently said that the more the jihadists are grovelled to, the more aggressive they get. This is entirely borne out by Gholam Hossein Elham saying: “This request means Western ideology has become passive, that capitalist thought and the system of domination have failed. Negotiation is secondary, the main issue is that there is no way but for (the United States) to change.”

Why are you in denial of this? You wanted the ‘wider context’, Ronnie, and he’s given it to you. It’s not just Israel these jihadists are after, it’s the entirety of Western culture they want destroyed and replaced with the Islamic caliphate.

Moreover, Ronnie, spelling isn’t the issue. The issue is you getting on your high horse and accusing somebody of being ‘ignorant’ when you can’t even write a sentence properly - it provides us with a measure of just how spectacularly ignorant you are.

Tom

Says Ronnie: “Some people here seem to think we should care what the Iranian regime thinks of us” - oh, what, like it will just go away if we don’t? No thanks, we tried that with Adolf.

Pat

It seems clear to me that that the Iranian government would rather rebuff Mr. Obama than offend their base. Maybe they're worried more by their base than they are by Americans?

Tracey

Ronnie, if these people are to be defeated peacefully, they must be backed into a corner where they say ‘OK, game’s up, we’ll change our agenda’.

And what is their response to Obama‘s grovelling: ‘there is no way but for (the United States) to change’ - great.

These people are motivated by religious fundamentalist warfare. All they understand is the use or threat of force. That is all jihad has ever understood for all the centuries it has been going on. Thus far, it always ends up with a last-minute victory against the jihadists - until the next time. Luckily, there has never been a time when the jihadists’ held the best hand. Thanks to the appeasement of countries such as Iran and the grovelling to Islamism throughout Europe, we’ll be lucky to get a next time.

For more commentary on Obama’s pathetic grovelling to Iran, check out Mary Ellen Synon’s piece: “Arrogant at home, naive abroad. America is already suffering 'buyer's regret' over Obama”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1131552/MARY-ELLEN-SYNON-Arrogant-home-naive-abroad-America-suffering-buyers-regret-Obama.html

aramkr

Jay(?):
Why don't you educate us. Because Melanie sounds pretty good to me. Also, no one cares whether you're offended or not.

Dixon

steve
February 1st, 2009 10:47am
Steve Bronfman: Any effort such as yours to link Iran, a Sh'ite Muslim state, with Sunni groups such as al-Qaeda, shows such a demonstrable ignorance that it is laughable. No one in any position of power takes such views seriously. Can I also point out that Ahmadinejad faces an election before too long and is probably using this as a means of distracting voters from his woeful record when it comes to the Iranian economy."

Steve, an effort to appear "sophisticated" such as yours is truly "ingenuous". Both the Iranian revolution AND AlQaida are scions of the Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Egypt before WW2.

And may I point out, that Achmadinnerjacket stands for election much in the same way that Premiers Brezhnev or Chernyenko stood for election, or indeed that winner of repeated landslides, Saddam Hussein!

For a response to your rubbish about Achmad dinnajkts speeches merely being rhetoric aimed at a notional Iranian "electorate" ( what a hoot ) take a look at my previous comment. A while before yours.

Dixon

ronnie, I pretty much concur, although I declare LOUDLY that I am not personally in any position to confirm or deny what capabilities "we" have in the region.

That said, if "we" includes the US, there are a great mant tools in the kit long before reaching for the rhetorical "nukes". I personally have a fancy for those TLAM missiles which can be launched from a sub and reach thousands of miles inland. Even the Royal Navy has that in its arsenal.

My favourite toy on the drawing board is the Trident converted to carry a deep penetrating non-nuclear warhead.

Having said that, several US Trident subs have already been reconfigured and are in service as non-nuclear armed amphibious commando platforms.

The best of all toys, sadly has been axed. That would have been the "God Rods". being, as you no doubt know, solid tungsten arrows fired to Earth from a sattelite with devastating penetration and energy.

Arash

Well it is not surprising to read such a diverse comments over a paragraph, with little substance, it show Iran is such an emotive issue in the west.

I remember very well, during the cold war, USSR was the target.

West in particular US need enemies, otherwise, how can they justify selling, the large quantity of arms, and escalating, the military expenditure to almost a trillion Dollars.

So to create an enemy, you must first demonize your adversary or perceived adversary, So to create an enemy, you must first demonize your adversary or perceived adversary, then propagate your message through the media, and feed to your population.
We all remember, WMD in Iraq, Iraqi missiles could reach Europe in 45 minutes.

Kiwi

Rob: "The Iranian people are actually very westernised and genuinely warm people."
Really? Actually, you're talking about, at the most, 10% westernised, the rest are still living in the seventh century. Not bad for a 70 million population country, ranking in the world’s top three holders of proven oil and natural gas reserves. I will concede though, that most of the Iranians I have come into contact with have been very westernised and genuinely warm people. But, of course, I haven't had too much contact with the other 90%. BTW, nowadays, being bracketed as 'westernised' in theocraatic Iran is almost certainly not a good idea. Ah well, as the locals would say, "zendegi", that's life!

Conservative Cabbie

Ronnie

Due to the fact that you are notorious leftie appeaser, I'm going to have to take issue with you.

You say that we shouldn't pay any attention to Hangmejacketup (nice!) because he's fighting an election, and yet during America's Presidential election, you weren't exhorting us to take Obama's rhetoric with such a heavy pinch of salt. In fact if I remember, you were all lovely and warm about the wonderful things he was saying about international relations. So come on you heinous slave to the jihadists, which is it?

Hosehead

The American 'wish' to talk to Iran is as convincing as Israeli unilateral ceasefire declarations - not worth the paper they are writtn on.

Charlie

M Portillo once said something very perceptive about Iran; he said " The problem with Iran is knowing who is in control and who to speak to". What concerns me and in particulary about the USA is whether we have enough people who speak Farsi; understand the history , the relationship between various factions within Iran and the psychology of the people. This does not mean being passive or aggressive but effective. One aspect which comes to mind is that if Iran has to import petrol because of it's inability to refine it, how effective could be a robust economic blockade in changing minds. It would appear the bazaaris are the main supporters of the regime. Would imposing effective controls on the movement of money out of the country put pressure on the bazaaris?

phil

If this column is representative of the west ,what chance have we of ever going forward with Iran .not one of you has addressed the point I made earlier .you are just fighting with one another -do any of you want peace ?

Arash

kiwi
I am impressed with your figures "10% westernized, the rest are still living in the seventh century"., where did you get your figures from” Mr. bigot
Iran is a developing country, currently there are more 67% of university students are women furthermore according to UN over eight million illiterates have been educated since the formation of the Literacy Movement Organization in 1979. Total adult literacy rate in 2008, 89.1% , while India among the 15 countries with low `Education for All'.

Iran film industry considered as one of the best in the world; there are many women film directors.
Iran car industry ranked 11 in the world and first in the Middle East.
Iran heath system is the best in the Middle East, and there are many pioneering surgery done, in Iran.
I can go on, yes the political system is considered as inclusive and reactionary, but it is sickening to read some of these contemptuous comments.
It shows how ignorant and bigots some people are.

Read CIA book of Iran

wonderer

It would be over-optimistic to assume that Iran will lose interest in nuclear weapons with the departure of Ahmedinejad. The anti-Semitic pronouncements of the "moderate" Khatami and Rafsanjani could have come from Goebbels. And Iran's man in Lebanon, Nasrallah of Hizbullah stated that it would be convenient to concentrate the Jews in one place (the Zionist entity) so as not to have to go after them all over the world.

A secularist of Iranian extraction who revisited his country not many years ago told me he was shocked to see banners calling for "Death to the Jews" on the road from the airport.

Yousef

Jay

I'm Iranian too, but I can't for the life of me see what Melanie wrote that you are offended by. Unless what you mean by being Iranian is that you are 'muslim' which is a different cultural and ideological standpoint altogether. Persians may currently be subjugated by islamic ideology, but that doesn't mean we don't stand against it. Persian culture and islamic culture are entirely different.

JONNY

'The West should not worry. Israel is behind you'

And that Neil Turner is what scares the living daylights out of me.
What are they going to do? Nuke Teheran and kill all the women and children?

Carl

Dixon, don't worry, you would never be mistaken for an expert on the military. We do though all know what tactics you like the best.

Dixon

Arash
February 2nd, 2009 6:26am
Well it is not surprising to read such a diverse comments over a paragraph, with little substance, it show Iran is such an emotive issue in the west.
I remember very well, during the cold war, USSR was the target. "

Well I take it from that comment Arash that you think the USSR was a lovely institution who we should have just laid down before so they could use us as a doormat.

The entire apparatus of the USSR was devoted to two things only, keeping its leadership in power and driving the West into the ground by relentless expansion of its armmed forces. They lost.

Even now, the supposedly "friendly" Russian state cannot repress these urges. Hence...although you will not have seen this reported anywhere in The Grauniad or the MSM Arash..Russia is currently embarked on a gigantic project of employing hundreds of new nuclear weapons, including silo ICBMs, train mobile ICBMs, bombers, bomber launched cruise missiles, battlefield nuclear artillery, etc, etc, etc.

So the West really has no need to "invent" adversaries as you seem to think. There are plenty of real ones.

You just go back to dreaming of daisies and singing "Me, me, me, the flowers see, me, me, me..." with your thumbs in your ears and if you are lucky, other people will go on protecting you...in spite of your vainglorious attempts to undermine them... and you will never have to face the hostile reality of the world.

Original Tony

Jenny...well said on both accounts.
Dixon, I normally support your views but in this instance I don't. The Iranians do not need sophistication to hit at the West/Israel, they do not need sophistication for a dirty bomb. Just a few kilos of enriched uranium and some plastic explosive and hey-presto, Tel Aviv, London and New York will be barren for 25 000 years. This is all deadly serious stuff.
As for Ronnie saying that time is needed for several Iranian factions to come up with a clear response to Obama's offer of friendship is just laughable!! Hangmejacketup must be a complete fool if he speaks for the Iranian nation and then has to water down or retract his comments once a 'final'reply has been penned to Obama's peace initiative.
Just get one thing straight Ronnie, a snake will always be a snake and you can no more negotiate with a snake than the leader or world terror.

JONNY

Main point is that Israel isn't adult enough to be given mass murder toys.
Or indeed anything heavier than a RPG.
She doesn't seem to comprehend these things are there to threaten. Not to use. (Vide nuclear weapons 1945-2009)
So until she grows up she must be disarmed. For her own good and that of all of us.

An American

Tracey,
Do you really think that Americans are having buyers remorse over electing Obama? I wish I had your trust in our fellow Americans...I don't see it...the mindless 'Messiah' worship continues.

Even the ancient, old owner of the Steelers thanked Obama at their victory celebration at the Super Bowl...apparently, Obama has now replaced his God too. He better rethink that...since he's not long for this world.

I've lost all faith in Americans. They have taken a great country and flushed it down the toilet of pop culture.

An American

Arash,

I can see you are proud of Iran and its accomplishments. I too admire many things about Iran and Iranians...But if it all goes up in a mushroom cloud brought on by its fanatical leaders...do any of your rosy statistics matter?

phil

JONNY you have strong words to say here -tell us what political education you have and what research have you done,and while you are there -your plan for the defence of the Israeli people ,which btw you can be sure is the front line for the west -you can create a record here too, apart from carl you will be the first to not disappear when an answer is needed -I look forward to it .

phil

An American buenas dias -I can see you are as busy as me (lol)

JONNY

You're asking the wrong questions phil.
Political education? No phil I am hopefully not politically educated. Don't much like the sound of that anyway. Seems to smack of 'indoctrination'.
My research? Events dear boy, as they come and go and are reviewed on TV and the serious press. And a brief glance at the atlas to check on how Israeli has somehow unaccountably ex-pan-ded since the modest area accorded to it following the Balfour Declaration.
How come? I wonder.
Defence of Israel? I really confess to be more concerned at the moment with giving Justice, Existence and a State to the long-suffering Palestinians. Thousands of whom have been robbed of their land and then murdered into the bargain.
Maybe because like a lot of Englishmen I sympathise with the underdog. And will usually back David against Goliath.

wonderer

Jonny, "the modest area accorded to [Israel] under the Balfour Declaration" for a Jewish national home would have comprised what is Israel, Gaza and the West Bank together with Transjordan. However, the English underdog fanciers, to defuse a conflict with the French, peeled off Transjordan in 1921 to create the Hashemite Kingdom now known as Jordan. "Hopefully not politically educated"? Your hope has doubtless been realised. Prepared to opine on matters of which you are historically ignorant? Definitely.

Dixon

Carl
February 2nd, 2009 1:58pm
Dixon, don't worry, you would never be mistaken for an expert on the military. We do though all know what tactics you like the best."

OK Carl, I pointedly DECLARED that I am not an expert, so your snidery is a cheap shot even for you. But all the same, can YOU tell us the difference between a BMP1 and a BTR76PB ...without running round Google for an answer? Or, come to that, a TU26 and a TU22M? Or your posterior and your elbow, for that matter?

Adam B.

Jonny, if Israel disarmed, there would be no Israel. The same cannot be said for Iran.

Jonny, Israel is outnumbered and outarmed with conventional weaponry on all sides. And you think Palestinians have been "robbed"? How, and by whom? What were they robbed of? And what about the greater number of jewish refugees from Arab nations? Questions you don't seem to ask yourself, preferring slogans and regurgitated soundbites instead.

Aren't the Jews long suffering as well Jonny? How ironic you take a story from the Torah and turn it against the Jews.

Adam B.

Jonny, you have been politically educated, educated to think a certain way. not one of your utterings has come from yourself.

Dixon

Original Tony, I agree, but you missed my point. what I was trying to say ( albeit in a convoluted way ) was that the left, Obammites and Troikanauts, et al, are forever telling us that Iran and the "Persian Mind" are oh so very sophisticated that we should just disregard the occasional bit of belligerant talk from Tehran as mere rhetoric for domestic consumption, but that, in actual fact, their "mindset" is in reality very primitive and their threats should be taken seriously, just as those made by a drunk in a pub.

Dave M

"Russia is currently embarked on a gigantic project of employing hundreds of new nuclear weapons, including silo ICBMs, train mobile ICBMs, bombers, bomber launched cruise missiles, battlefield nuclear artillery, etc, etc, etc."

This is clearly because Gorbachev was promised no expansion of NATO on Russian borders before the Berlin Wall was knocked down. Yet the promise made to Gorbachev was hollow. Understandably Russia is angry and defensive. Russia also fears the E.U. expansion and is also wary of the mass Islamicisation of European countries. Let's not forget it was Putin who first warned of militant Islam taking over Europe. Then when 9/11 took place he declared, "We told you so!"

stanley Jerusalem

JOHNNY - Just remember David's nationality please; and Goliath's.
Dixon - thanks for attempting to educate him, but I doubt it will change his attitude. Remember he's not listening, he's just rearranging his prejudices.
I think we are witnessing an extended [ God knows for how long] of the idea that the press would never let the truth get in the way of a good stor. A story swallowed by every weak-minded so-called liberal in the West. Funny one hardly hears a dicky-bird from the Orient on the matter.With the possible exception of this piece:-

Japanese description of the Palestinians.

It is so ironic that a Japanese person, from a country we and our allies defeated when they were allies with Germany, wrote so brilliantly
about the fatal problems that have been facing Israel since the end of
the war in which they were allied with those who wanted to annihilate
Jews!

By Yashiko Sagamori

If you are so sure that Palestine ,the country, goes back through most of recorded history, I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine :
1. When was it founded and by whom?
2. What were its borders?
3. What was its capital?
4. What were its major cities?
5. What constituted the basis of its economy?
6. What was its form of government?
7. Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Haj al Amin and Arafat?
8. Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?
9. What was the language of the country of **Palestine**?
10. What was the prevalent religion of the country of **Palestine**?
11. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date.
12. And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?

You are lamenting the 'low sinking' of a 'once proud' nation. Please tell me when exactly was that 'nation' proud and what was it so proud of?

And here is the least sarcastic question of all:
If the people you mistakenly call 'Palestinians' are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over -- or thrown out of -- the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War?

I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day 'Palestinians' to the Biblical Philistines: substituting etymology for history won't work here.

Kiwi

Arash. "I am impressed with your figures..." You'll be even more impressed with these:
Iran, World Democracy Audit - overall ranking 139 out of 150
Political Rights - Scored 6 out of 7 (1 being most desirable)
Civil Liberties - Scored 6 out of 7 (1 being most desirable)
Press Freedom - overall ranking 141 out of 150
Corruption - overall ranking 103 out of 145
Source: http://www.worldaudit.org/countries/iran.htm
No doubt, in your eyes, my providing this information pushes me even further up your bigotry ladder.
To reiterate my original point, developing country or not, Iran under the present theocracy does not even come close to qualifying as being 'western.'

Carl

Dixon, yes. I can also tell you that massacres are always wrong, something you cannot understand.

Original Tony

Jonny 6:44pm. You say that Israel has "somehow expanded" since the Balfour declaration and that you wonder how? In your view the expansion has come from invasion and aggression, right?
This shows how thick you are and everything that you say in future will be invalid.
The Balfour declaration gave all of Jordan, the 'West bank' (actually ancient Jewish lands), a fair chunk of Lebanon and modern day Syria to Israel so how could Israel be expanding into the West Bank througnaggression when it was theirs in the first place??????
The 'West bank' was taken from Israel in a war with Iraqi and Jordanian forces and stayed like that until Israel took it back again. Get your history right numb nuts.

phil

stanley Jerusalem-I dont think jonny will be back after that series -he can join the list of those that have vanished or just perhaps he knows something we don,t all know .

Stephen Fox

Jonny, I am interested in you saying 'Maybe because like a lot of Englishmen I sympathise with the underdog. And will usually back David against Goliath.'
Because I think that hatred of power is what really motivates a lot of the left wing reaction to the world.
Although absolute power is always dangerous, this does not mean that all underdogs are good. In many cases, underdogs are underdogs because they are crap. One of the main causes of the pogroms against the Jews in pre-Israel Palestine was their success in enterprises, such as farming which attracted many Arabs to work for Jews in an area previously regarded as arid, useless land. The Arabs hated being dependent and secondary in this way, and took to killing Jews. While I might sympathise with their situation to some degree, I absolutely refuse to take their side against people with more spirit, self belief and intelligence. Nature makes this kind of judgement all the time in the waxing and waning of species and civilisations. Get used to it.
In a more general way, support of underdogs as a principle masks a will to perpetual conflict and war. If all power is evil, and all underdogs good, then what would keep us from unending civil war? All groups, whether human or animal, function according to and by means of power structures. The great achievement of democracy is to have developed a way of moderating power, and incorporating a degree of freedom of speech and action for individuals, as well as providing a mechanism for the periodic changing of the guard which does not simply consist of a tribal massacre of all opponents. It remains to be seen whether its strengths will outweigh disadvantages such as the short term 5 year attention span, and demagoguery directed at gullible, and (dare I say?) often stupid electorates.

phil

jonny you are a joke -quote"No phil I am hopefully not politically educated. Don't much like the sound of that anyway. Seems to smack of 'indoctrination'.
My research? Events dear boy, as they come and go and are reviewed on TV and the serious press." ------ well you admit to a lack of education at least but you didnt tell us you were watching "press tv " from Iran and reading the guardian did you ? are you just naive or be truthful do you not like us -thats ok but at least let the truth prevail .

Dixon

Carl
February 3rd, 2009 8:15am
Dixon, yes. I can also tell you that massacres are always wrong, something you cannot understand.2"

Carl you say "yes", as though you can answer my rhetorical questions to you ( what is the difference between a BMP1 and a BTR76PB, between a TU26 and a TU22M, between your posterior and your elbow...without "researching" it on the internet... )...but where is the proof? Tell us Carl, what are the answers? This is your last chance before I announce the answers and reveal who between us is the FARTHEST from ever being an "expert".

Meanwhile, you say "I know that massacres are always wrong".

Tell me Carl, how do you know that anyhthing is either "right" or "wrong"...is it that its what your mummy told you, because if so, there are whole classsrooms of kiddies being told right now that its perfectly OK to commit massacres...indeed, its their duty, as long as they only massacre people not like themselves...people like us Carl!

Indeed, how do you figure out whether ANYTHING is "right" or "wrong"? Is it based in a religion? Because if so, there are over a billion followers of one religion whose "holy book" that tells them that it is absolutely their destiny, before the "end of days", to find every last Jew and murder them!

Or is your "right and wrong" merely happenchance, what your peer group tells you?

Tell us Carl, WHY are massacres wrong?

Tell us where "right and wrong" come from? Do, please, because if you can, you will go down in history as someone who cracked a problem that no philosopher who ever lived managed to resolve.

Silly boy.

Brad

Iranian elections, eh? Yes, interesting. I wonder if Mr. Khamenei will be up for the electoral chop? Get real.

phil

Dixon today carl told us he is not a socialist -its the first time ,I think, that he has disclosed what he is other than an argumentative and obnoxious person -maybe he will deign to tell us all what he thinks he is .he is no liberal ,nor a tory so that leaves only the far right -if he is a racist let him tell us ,he is entitled to his view, as we are to despise him for it ,come on carl spit it out man .you can do it -first prize a bowl of chicken soup, a salt beef sandwich and a new green cucumber ,collect in golders green -I will pay for it,

Carl

Dixon, you are the one that approved of the massacre of Muslims by the Serbs so it is probably better for you to answer your rather strange question. I have no idea why you want to know about Soviet/Russian kit, but I'm sure that you have your reasons.

DWMF

As I have said before in other places, Ahmadinejad is like a monkey dancing on a barrel organ, rattling a tin cup. It is Khamenei that is turning the handle.

So Ahmadinejhad as a person matters very little. He was chosen from a bunch pre-selected by the Ayatollahs, all with effectively identical political profiles. His election was a sham to start off with.

The monkey will be cut up for stew, and a substitute will be easily found. The general populace despise him anyway, naming him "The Turd".

Ronnie

Cabbie, very funny.

Dixon

Carl
February 3rd, 2009 5:01pm
Dixon, you are the one that approved of the massacre of Muslims by the Serbs so it is probably better for you to answer your rather strange question. I have no idea why you want to know about Soviet/Russian kit, but I'm sure that you have your reasons."

My point Carl is that you appear to know sod all about anything. Not even the fact that I posted my correction to your idea that I approved massacres committed by Serbs...weeks ago. At that time, I had said the Serbs "were right all along". I didnt say they were right to do what they did. Thats only in your head.

And what else is in your head. You cannot addresss or engage with ANY of the moral, ethical, philosophical points that I raise. You are, Im quite happy to say without fear of contradiction, an idiot. And before you say I am committing ad hominemn, I think anyone reading this thread from the top will see I have given you plenty of opportunities to debate your "moral" convictions and my denial of their substance whilst all that you have offered in return are reasons to conclude that you indeed have nothing between your ears but a cavity echoing with memes.

The answer, for those that enjoy a laugh at Carls expense, is that a BMP1 and a BTR76PB is the same thing as a TU26 and a TU22M are also the same thing, whilst an "elbow" is a joint in the arm and that other thing is what Carl "thinks" with.

Carl

Dixon, I have to say that I can understand why you want to change this particular history. After all, most decent people would be ashamed of themselves for approving of massacre. I'm still at an utter loss though as to why you think some Russian military kit enhances your standing.

Dixon

Get this Carl, if you persist in LYING about me, I shall have to mention a few of YOUR earlier remarks.

I so far refrained from mentioning your defense of paedophillia.

Dixon

Is there ANYONE here who does not agree that Carl can only be described in terms that cannot be used in polite conversation?

Carl

Dixon, go ahead, for it is only in your febrile imagination. I see that you are getting desperate now.

phil

dixon carl doesn,t want to go to collect his prize ,maybe he fears he will meet an IDF veteran on the door -

DIXON QUOTE -
Dixon
February 3rd, 2009 10:13pm

"Is there ANYONE here who does not agree that Carl can only be described in terms that cannot be used in polite conversation?"----------COULD WE NOT REFER TO HIS TIME WITH A JAFFA IN HIS MOUTH most would get the drift. btw what did he say about paedophilia ?

Carl

Phil - I have never commented on the subject, Dixon is just making it up in an attempt to deflect people from his own appalling views. So dream on, I suppose the next accusations will be that I am an anti Semite or Nazi, all of which are well known tactics used by pro Zionists to draw attention away from the argument. As I see it, the stronger the insults, the better I am getting my message across.

phil

Carl- not for me son I just see you as a figure of fun-if you wrote something sensible even if I disagreed you would get something across but you just write hate mail ,so I get my serious stuff out and then have a laugh at your expense -you seem to like it so its no problem is it ?

Dixon takes you too seriously and I don,t know why as he is much too intelligent for you . You could of course tell us what your political stance is because noone so far has managed to dig it out of you and if you don,t want to be seen as an anti-Semite (I will leave out your nazi bit) you have to make it clear by not saying such hateful untruths about us .Try it and you might get some proper debate rather than all the insults that are aimed at you -it is time to realise that you are the one out of step ,we can,t all be wrong .

Carl

Phil - everything I have posted is true. The truth is something you are rightly afraid of. I do go easy on you as you an an elderly man and deserve to live peacefully.

phil

carl ::how old do you think? dont worry son I can punch my weight -i go in the pro gyms.yes in the ring ! ,that is the truth -the only thing you need to worry about is meeting me ,safer than an IDF veteran though ! how about hyde park corner Sunday 11 just put on a face mask marked "truthful,carl" .there could be thousands there -we could raise a lot for charity-dixon can be the ref -oh never mind I know your not coming -cant find a face mask with "truthful carl" on it-sorry carl cant help it you do make me smile -just hope donna doesn't mind my jokes :)

David Lindsay

Good for the Iranians, launching their own satellite. We in Britain rely on the EU, the US and Russia to do these things for us.

Derek BLADES

JOHNNY. Thank you. You are a lone voice of reason on Melanie's blog which seems have attracted more than the usual share of paranoid wackos. I would appreciate your comments on the thoughts below.

Iran has Israel as a nuclear armed enemy within striking range on one side and a nuclear-armed American fleet lurking off shore in the Persion Gulf. In that situation would it not be irresponsible of Iran's leaders not to acquire its own nuclear wdeapons - or at least the ability to produce them at short notice?

Adam B.

Yes David, they can launch a satellite and build nuclear reactors but can't distil their own oil, having to impost their petroleum. Still, the rockets will be a good test for Iranian intercontinental ballistic missles - just what we need!

Linda Smith

Dear Moderator: I am not sure if you got the following comments so I am posting it again.

I was surprised to see Derek Blades' post of 4 Feb at 9.31. following his post on another thread on 2 Feb 8.22pm "Sorry folks. i have tried to illuminate the dark corners of rigid mindsets but I am clealy getting nowhere. You will hear no more from me on Melanie's blog for bigots. Byeee."

Welcome back Derek. You asked "..would it not be irresponsible of Iran's leaders not to acquire its own nuclear weapons - or at least the ability to produce them at short notice?"

Derek Blades, Johny, David Lindsay etc. display their ignorance and naivety. I have rather more confidence in the learned opinion of Michael Axworthy, Head of the Iran Section of Britain's Foreign and Commonwealth Office (1998-2000). Michael Axworthy is in no doubt that Iran intends a military implementation of Ahmedinajad's stated wish in 2005 to wipe Israel off the map:

"The formula had been used before by Khomeini and others, and had been translated by representatives of the Iranian regime as 'wiped off the map'. Some of the dispute that has arisen over what exactly Ahmadinejad meant by it has been rather bogus. When the slogan appeared draped over missiles in military parades, that meaning was pretty clear."

Ahmadinejad 13 May 2008 "...this regime would soon be swept away by the Palestinians"..A day later in Gorgan, northern Iran "Israel's days are numbered..the peoples of the region would not miss the narrowest opportunity to annihilate this false regime.
Iranian news channel on 2 June 2008 "Thanks to God, your wish will soon be realised, and this germ of corruption will be wiped off the face of the world"

"Viewed in context, the statements of Iran's leaders and, in particular, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad constitute incitement to genocide of the people of Israel. They are alarmingly similar to the coded statements of incitement that preceded the Rwandan genocide of the Tutsis in 1994, and should therefore alarm all peace-loving peoples."
(Dr Joshua Teitelbaum, Stanford University)

The EU released the following Statement on 25 February 2008:
DECLARATION BY THE PRESIDENCY ON BEHALF OF THE EU ON RECENT ANTI-ISRAELI STATEMENTS
The EU condemns in the strongest terms the statements made by the Iranian President Ahmadinejad, the Speaker of the Iranian Majlis Haddad Adel, the Iranian Foreign Minister Mottaki, and the Commander of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Jafari. Their comments pointed against Israel are unacceptable, damaging and uncivilised. The EU calls on Iran to stop hostile rhetoric and refrain from all threats towards other states, members of the international community."

Regarding the status of the Jewish community in Iran: ""Not allowed to occupy higher positions than Muslims and so are disqualified frm the leading ranks in politics and the military. Not allowed to serve as witnesses in court, and Jewish schools must be managed by Muslims and stay open on Jewish Sabbath. Books in Hebrew prohibited. Subordinate Dhimmi status.....Today the Jewish community serves Ahmedinajad not only as an alibi in his power game, but also increasingly as a deterrent: In the event of an Israeli attack on Iranian nuclear facilities, this community would find itself hostage and vulnerable to acts of reprisal." (Matthias Kuntzel).

Israel is the central front of the global Islamic jihad for world domination. The goal of the Islamic global jihad is to conquer all unbelievers and spead Islamic theocracy around the world. If you are deluded enough to think the virulently anti-semitic, Holocaust denying, Islamic fundamentalist Ahmedinajad has only got Israel in his sights, you'd better think again. Because in the Iranian President's own words on October 2005:

"We are in the process of an historical war...and this war has been going on for hundreds of years....We have to understand the depth of the disgrace of the enemy, until our holy hatred expands continuously and strikes like a wave......This holy hatred is boundless and unconditional. It will not be mitigated by any form of Jewish or non-Jewish conduct - other than subordination to sharia and the Koran."

Khaled Meshaael, Damascus-based political leader of Hamas: "Just as Islamic Iran defends the rights of the Palestinians, we defend the rights of Islamic Iran. We are part of a united front against the enemies of Islam"

Derek Blades et al: You infidels are the enemies of Islam just as much as the Jews. Go and read my evidence in my posts on other threads. I can't decide if you are secret Islamists or just traditional jew baiters. Because any sane person does not plead their enemies cause as you do.

Derek BLADES

Linda Smith. 5 Feb. You wrote "Derek Blades et al: You infidels are the enemies of Islam just as much as the Jews. Go and read my evidence in my posts on other threads. I can't decide if you are secret Islamists or just traditional jew baiters."

I cannot speak for et al but please be assured that I am neither a secret Islamist nor a traditional jew baiter.

I have indeed looked at the "evidence" in your posts. The problem is that you start from the belief that there are Islamic bogeymen out there determined to kill all infidels. I start from a different point - believing that almost all people are good at heart and that if we treat them fairly we will receive the same treatment in return. I am quite an old person and have lived in Africa, America, and Europe and have worked in several countries in Asia and the Middle East. My belief in the essential goodness of people is based on that experience.

Clearly there are many Arab people in Palestine who have negative views about Israel. But that is not because they are mentally deranged as many of your quotations seem to imply. It is because Israel has treated them badly for more than 60 years. I can well understand how this treatment has lead to some very intemperate language towards Israel and Jews by the people you quote.

Israel must talk to its opponents so as to understand their point of view. Above all, Israel should aplogise to the Arab refugees for having stolen their homes and farms, for having killed so many of them and rendered the lives of the survivors insupportable by road-blocks and border closures. Israel and its Arab neighbours can then consider how the two communities can live together.

I believe that this is the kind of agenda that Obama and Mitchell have in mind.

Your agenda, Linda, is nihilistic. It is without hope and leads only to more death and destruction. Lighten up Linda.

Linda Smith

Derek Blades: 5 Feb. 10:08 You wrote: "I start from a different point - believing that almost all people are good at heart and that if we treat them fairly we will receive the same treatment in return."

I was born 4 years after the Holocaust ended.
Please explain the Holocaust in the context of your statement above.

My "belief that there are Islamic bogeymen out there determined to kill all infidels" is based in fact. The Arab/Israel conflict is about ideology and religion, not about land. I recommend you read Con Coughlin's article "Iran Will Not Unclench Its Fist, Mr President" on this Spectator website for a start.

You seem to live in some fantasy world of your own.

phil

Derek Blades ,you have made your position perhaps a little clearer in your post to Linda .but the facts contained therein are terribly wrong -you say Israel stole land from the Arabs ,that is so untrue that you will be unable to show any evidence of that -the fact that they left is undisputable ,the reasons are disputable ,but nevertheless over 1 million of them still reside there in peace and not under threat .---------

Can you really believe that the roadblocks and walls are there for any other reason than they are necessary to stop attacks ? Do you think Israel will spend so much of its budget on the army if it does not need to ?Your feelings are those of we softies (and I am one )who support the "underdog" but in this case it is a self imposed position -all that needs to happen to bring down the walls and blocks is for those Arabs to make peace. what will happen then ?-full employment ,a health service rivaling the best in the world ,education of many things other than how to blow innocents up ,full bellies ,clean water and no more killings -is it ?too much to ask for .?Oh and btw there is no one to talk to!

Adam B.

Derek, why don't you answer my questions. You can't have the debate entirely on your own conditions. And as for bigots, (you introduced the word) I think you are, with your endless stream of excuses for Jew hatred.

phil

Adam B.its always the same as we have said before ,confronted with facts and logic they disappear to an other thread -it doesnt matter that oneis polite with them either .we need to face up to it they do not like us :)