The intimidation of the House of Lords

Roy

Although not now a resident of the UK this type of news hits me like a ton of bricks. As if it isn't bad enough that well known Yorkshire mill towns have been taken over by the sins of darkness, so have the Lords been stricken.

Ros Morris

This is the link to 'Fitna'. Judge for yourselves. One friend who I sent it to is rather scathing of its 'balance'. I'd be interested in hearing others' views.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3369102968312745410

Wilhelm

Melanie

The house of lords and commons is a chimps tea party. You cant take it seriously.

Kevyn Bodman

Melanie,
You are correct.

Alhanih H Niawi

This kind of Muslim politicians like Lord Ahmed are the ones promoting extremism in Britain, just like the Imams in the mosque who are preaching hate, he is very bad role model for Muslim liberals and Europeans who was born to have democratic freedom, why he doesn't want the Dutch man to come to Britain and talk about the problems facing Europe at this century? of course he is hiding something and hiding the truth, I wonder why there are something like 10,000 young Muslims who want to blow themselves up? those young people know they are allow to do what they want by politicians like this, they know they will always be protected by someone like Lord Ahmed

JJS

Melanie says, quite correctly of course, that this will be "another notch on the ratchet of Britain’s slide into submission". The important word is "another" -- and I can't help thinking that when the number of things of this nature that are happening right now is as high as it is, it has the effect of becoming too big -- too much -- to comprehend. Not being able to see the trees for the wood, as it were. It's all so mind-numbing that we just sit and watch it happen -- powerless to stop the decline of our own sysyem of values -- and oblivious to the idea that precisely by sitting by we allowed it to start happening in the first place. Sad beyond words.

Alex Creel

Melanie, an ideal time to raise the profile of British Jews and re-take the moral high ground after the Gaza PR disaster. Rally the troops to attend the Lords and ensure Wilder's safe passage. 'Jewish Brits defend our free speech' - a daily mail headline I'd actually like to see.

Geoff

It's a bit rich for Wilders to be concerned about free speech, considering he has called for the Koran to be banned. Either there is free speech for all, or there isn't. You can't have it both ways to suit you, so I don't really think He or his supporters have a leg to stand on when they complain about being banned from the Lords.

(incidentally, I am a supporter of free speech, so do support Wilders going to the Lords, no matter how much I disagree with his views)

Sempronius

Would this be the same Lord Ahmed who invited the notorious Swedish anti-Semite "Israel Shamir" to the House of Lords back in 2005?

(http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article378140.ece)

Oliwagino Alefava Yihiri

JJS, "The idea that precisely by sitting by we allowed it to start happening in the first place". Sad beyond words, this things been happening for a long time the British been sleep walking and there are still some who are walking around with there pyjamas, Melanie published a book few years ago, some people did not take it seriously Londonistan: How Britain is creating a terror state Within, now some people are slowly waking up, i think it is kind of too late

Suffolkbor

So Lord Ahmed threatened to mobilise 10,000 muslims to physically prevent Geert Wilders from from entering the upper house ?
Is that not a clear incitement to subvert the rules of democracy by inciting mob violence ?
If a peer threatened to call up 10,000 rural people up from the sticks to protest about how country people are treated in this land they would be censured by the appropriate committee and doubtless investigated by the police .
This country seems be barrelling headlong into becoming an Islamic state at an increasing speed and no one seems able to apply the brakes .

Original Tony

Ros Morris 11.04 am...you say you have a friend that is scathing in his commentary about the Fitna movie because it is 'not balanced'.
The whole purpose of the movie is to show extremist atrocities. May I ask your friend how he proposes to "balance" the extremism depicted in the video? Will he balance it by showing the virtues and successes of Islamic countries perhaps? Maybe "balance" it by putting in a link to a Moslem Nobel prize winner perhaps...oh hang on there is only one Muslim who has received the award...well lets "balance" the atrocities by looking at Muslim advances in science, technology...surgical procedures perhaps? What about tiny little robots that can operate inside a human to save a life, you know, the type invented by one of the nearly 200 Nobel prize winners Israel has produced?
How exactly will your friend propose "balancing" a video that depicts the truth about the horror of Islamic fundamentalism. Come on, PLEASE tell me!

Lynne T

Frankly, Geert Wilders makes for a very poor spokesperson. Lord Ahmed would have a much harder time denying Judea Pearl the opportunity to speak to the H of L. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123362422088941893.html

Gary O

I have seen Fitna. It doesn't show or say anything that an intelligent person or someone with a healthy scepticism of islam doesn't know already. The film doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the imminent danger our civilisation is in. More power to the peers who have invited Geert, though.

Original Tony

Come on Britian, enough is enough! I just cannot believe a peer made this threat in public and got away with it.
I am glad some other peers have got the guts to insist the movie is shown. I for one will be at the airport to help escort Mr. Wilders to parliament!

Meh

Just so we can all keep count, how many notches are there on this ratchet leading to submission? (presumably submission is also the end of civilisation, but who knows).

Austin Barry

Is this the same Lord Ahmed,a convicted drunk driver, who on 23 February 2005, hosted a book launch in the House of Lords for the notorious anti-semite Israel Shamir - a man who apparently believes that ritual murders of Christians are carried out by a group of Jewish "deviants"?

Vision Aforethought

Incredible. Related, HM Gov are hiding behind the lie that lots of children and elderly are being run over by speeding Waitrose shoppers and therefore building a network of intelligent 'speed' cams (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/article5645536.ece) that track your number plate. Assuming for a moment this system really is for keeping us at a subservient 20mph, how does it stop joy riders who end up crashing into houses at 80mph killing themselves and their passengers so they cannot pay the fine anyway? (Answer: It doesn't.) These cameras are for monitoring the people by a very very dangerous government who are becoming little different from the issues that Mr. Wilders is concerned about.

As someone in 'IT', the potential for missuse of all this privacy invasive technology is substantial and lord elpus when it gets into the wrong hands.

Am interested to know what M thinks of all this?

Dave

Well I've been part of a group of thousands protesting outside Parliament. If people want to cancel meetings that's up to them. But taking to the streets in protest seems the very point of freedom of speech.

DavidMWW

Who (re)invited Wilders to the HoL? I would like to know.

Barry Larking

Ahmed is a hypocrite. He invited a known and outspoken anti-semite to the House of Lords Remand Hostel.

I care little what this film or its maker are but I do care that someone threatened to make trouble on the streets and was rewarded.

The main stream media have not touched this because they are spineless and are fearful of Moselm reaction. However, today many more millions are getting their information from sites such as these. Spread the word.

The 'never' elected Ahmed is exposed.

Conservative Cabbie

Original Tony

Balance in Fitna.

The main purpose of Fitna is to show that the Koran calls for the violence practiced by Islamic extremists. Perhaps balance could be shown by revealing the passages in the Koran that don't advocate violence but instead focus on peace and love.

The Bible will tell you to stone adulterers whilst a few pages later will tell you to "love thy neighbour". The Koran is no different.

Ros Morris

@Original Tony. I'm only saying what my friend said. I'm not saying that I agree with him! I looked at the video. Trying to be dispassionate. I thought to myself that maybe, just maybe the very nice bearded gentlemen were simply being 'allegorical' when stating that Islam should take over the world; that Jews should be humiliated and killed and Israel wiped off the face of the map. The trouble is that there are simply too many occasions now where these sermons/speeches/videos are shown in the Middle East and, presumably, here in Europe. I would hope that not every Muslim feels this way. I just wish that if this were the case, that we heard more of their voices. Even if Wilders is not squeaky clean vis a vis his view that the Koran should be 'banned', there's no reason why this video should be banned.

Bill M

Conservative Cabbie,

Apparently, you've not read the Bible. Your statement is not true. Nice try, though.

fullenglish

Good point Ros, but you wont hear any moderate Muslim opinion on this blog because they have all been scared off.

zoltix

There is a reason why Wilders brought up the idea of banning the Koran. It's because the Netherlands already has a 60 year old law banning Mein Kampf and he was making a comparison between the treatment of the two. In interviews in countries that do not have this legislation, he tends to adopt the demand that muslims should amend the Koran to remove or disown the unpleasant koran parts in the way that modern Christianity has done with the Bible. This is also why you cannot apologise for the koran by pointing out lines from the Old Testament on the grounds that 'they are all as bad as each other'.

Thom

We should keep our fingers crossed that Lord Ahmed wont be in the House of Lords for a while.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5645422.ece
(Read the last paragraph).

People should monitor the courts to see its judgement here, and whether justice is still blind in this country; methinks this will be highly indicative of the state of our justice system, and our flaccid media for its under-reporting.

Original Tony

Conservative cabbie. 1:59pm

The subtle difference between the Koran and the Bible is that the Koran encourages its believers to kill people OUTSIDE the Moslem faith (infidels) whereas the old testament ritual of stoning was to discipline people WITHIN Judaism (to purify them). This was later curtailed by secular laws under various Kings and the coming of Christ, as per the New Testament.
Therefore, even if the Koran has scriptures that encourage peace and love, the net effect is that terror is still exported to those outside Islam by doctrine, which is not the case in Judaism and Christianity. In this context you can't really balance horrific acts of violence (on others)with a few lines of 'peace and love' in the Koran.

dga5000

1689 Bill of Rights (Artcile 9)

Members and Peers should be able to speak and act freely in parliament.

So this right was enshrines way before the Human Rights Act and should be maintained.

Wyn

Hopefully the film will be screened without fear or favour. How can the HOL allow these threats to deter them? This issue means more than merely being allowed to screen a contentious film, it is setting a precedent and amounts to one man intimidating everyone else. It is yet another test of wills between our society and people who would rule by fear.

Penny

My concern is that a Lord of the Realm - i.e. the whole of the UK and ALL its people, sees fit to declare his intial success as a 'victory' for the muslim community.

He does very little to promote a)freedom of speech,b)the views of the majority of moderate muslims and non-muslims c) their security d)his own dedication to ALL citizens of the UK.

Why does Lord Ahmed think the sight of 10,000 muslims protesting against freedom of speech is either a victory or is going to support community cohesion in the UK?

The only 'victory; I can envisage is for the young radicals or the BNP.

I would be less concerned if Lord Ahmed had shown some balance and also taken issue with past protest marches where young men are covering their faces and holding banners, the nature of which were quite violent towards the UK and the West in general. He should then have rallied 10,000 moderates to march in peace to demonstrate the majority view.

The member issuing the invitation wasn't suggesting a nation-wide, public screening, but a private session follwed by a discussion. I daresay that amongst the guests there will be a 'discussion', with both sides able to offer up their views. Sounds fairly democratic to me.

Geoff - although I take your point about Wilder's apparent wish to remove certain pages from the Koran - the difference is that most Jews and Christians, although aware of the biblical references to punitive measures being taken against others (e.g. stoning)I know of none who believe them to be valid in this day and age. This is not the case for the jihad-orientated extremists in our midst.

Augustus

Freedom of speech, and what it's limits are, has certainly been skewed recently. On the one hand you have people holding Nazi banners and shouting 'the Jews to the gas' in public streets all over the western world without anybody taking any action, and on the other you have a people's representative in a civilized western country producing a film which only criticizes and shows up Islam and the Koran for its ideology, but does not suggest violence towards Muslims, and he is ordered to face trial for inciting hatred. Isn't that a twisted interpretation of free speech?

Gerald

Hello EURABIA

Vogon

Bill M. It appears you are the one who needs bible lessons. Deut 22:22, "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

I'm sure there's a "love thy neighbour" in the bible somewhere too.

Jason from AZ

Democracy and free speech at woek - Londonstan style. Get used to it UK and the rest of Eurabia - this is your future.

Dr Michael Jones

@ Cabbie

"The Bible will tell you to stone adulterers whilst a few pages later will tell you to "love thy neighbour". The Koran is no different."

The main difference is that Jews and Christians haven't stoned anyone to death for 2000 years... while Muslims do it practically on a monthly basis. Open your eyes.

Woody

If 10 000 Muslims do turn up then the whole Metropolitan police force (sorry, service) will RUN backwards again.

Raymond Joseph Douglas

PERHAPS- THE COUNTRYSIDE ALLIANCE SHOULD DRESS UP AS MUSLIMS NEXT TIME THEY COME DOWN TO PROTEST AT PARLIAMENT !

Shank's Mare

Conservative Cabbie: maybe you've been stuck in traffic too long, but we Christians are under the Covenant of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ to the Jews who intended to carry out the stoning of an adulteress: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and to the adulteress: "Henceforth, go and sin no more"

Commit it to memory. Repeat it to any Muslim customers you pick up and one or two 'secularists', too. Spread the Good News. It might just make a difference.

charles soper

Is Wilders turning towards fascists for help, despite his disavowal of racism? I have heard rumours of this.
If so it would be a shame on the many sheepish Europeans opposed to jihadi Islam but equally opposed to fascist racists, yet unwilling to say so.

Suffolkbor

Woody:
If 10,000 Muslims turned up outside the House of Lords the metropolitan police would enter the guinness book of records for the worlds fastest backward sprint .
That,s if they bothered to turn up at all that is .
They must be longing for another Countryside Alliance march so that they can get down to the much more satisfying business of truncheoning rural british people into the tarmac .

Archbishop Cranmer

Dear Ms Phillips,

His Grace reported on the Lord Ahmed threat as the story broke, and it has been linked to all over the world. His Grace has even received requests to be interviewed on US television, but, owing to the lack of a corporeal presence, was unable to accept.

However, he will be posting a story tomorrow which may be of considerable interest to you, and might either result in a prosecution or Lord Ahmed being expelled from the Lords under the Justice Secretary's new proposals.

Shalom.

fullenglish

Jews and Muslims. Both are Semites. Learn to get along and stop scaremongering. You have more in common then you care to acknowledge.

Bailey

Geert Wilder's Fitna is only repeating the words and verses that are IN the Koran.

Technically, the only thing guilty of hate speech in Fitna...IS THE KORAN...NOT Mr. Wilders.

So, that means his real crime was in revealing those hateful and inciteful words to YOU... non-Muslims.

Cheers to the Parliament for bringing Mr Wilders back.

You should send an email if possible to let them know you support this decision...and that you do not like being threatened by ANYONE.

They need to know that the public is supporting them.

Bailey

If you want to see another interesting movie, google OBSESSION: RADICAL ISLAM'S WAR AGAINST THE WEST.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Greetings! from Islamic Republic of Great Britain

Ken

Is this the same Lord Ahmed facing sentencing this month for dangerous driving (texting while behind the wheel)? If so his punishment could be enlightening. Might it be more than the 21 months given Philippa Curtis for the same offence? Her and his behaviour led to identical outcomes - the death of innocent others.

Winston Smith

Brilliant Melanie!

You are the first British journalist to publish this article in a mainstream media outlet. All credit to you. I've known of this article for a while now. You are helping to educate the British public on the threat of Islamisation.

Brilliant!!!

Paul L

I think Ahmed is somewhat confused. If he can get 10,000 Islamists to the Lords I think they may be there for very different reasons to those he pretends to think; remember cuddly Omar Bakri, the freeloading inspiration of many a 'disaffected moderate'? he said of Fitna ".. if we leave out the first images and the sound of the page being torn, it could be a film by the Mujahideen,".

Is that Ahmed's objection? That it is accurate? that variants of it are watched in thousands of frontrooms in our nation by many thousands of 'moderates'? but that the somnambulent Brits must be prevented from getting a taster of what the 10,000 really are like - and that just wont do?

Daibhidh MacAdhaimh

A solemn, authorative voice of reproval against Ahmed's threat should have been raised in the House of Lords loud enough to have been heard in the Commons. And the reaction from the latter firm and effective enough to render the threat impotent, and also re-affirm Parliament's sovereignty.
Re-inviting Wilders suggests that dignity was restored.

Herbert Thornton

The link to Fitna provided by Ros Morris seems to have been blocked, but a Google search of OBSESSION mentioned by Bailey does produce the video.

The postings referring to the Koran in these blogs generally include little discussion of why the Koran contains apparently contradictory teachings - some calling for violence and killing and others far more peaceful.

An important question, it seems to me, is how Islam resolves these. On that question, there is a very informative video called - "Islam: What The West Needs To Know". It can be accessed via Google.

Joe Strummer

That this disgraceful action by Lord Ahmed wasn't a front page headline or made the British television news says it all about the cowardice of the UK media in regards to airing possible negative Muslim stories.

Augustus

There is an interesting point of law about the Wilders case, Whenever someone like Wilders mentions Islam, or even immigrants, there are those in authority who label such people a Fascist. So even if Wilders goes to court and loses his case, it will mean that these anti-Fascists will also be obliged to hold their tongues. What's sauce for the goose...

Alcuin

Thank you, again, Melanie, for your unflagging support for our institutions, now under such virulent attack and mounting such a pathetic defence. I hope you will not suffer the fate of Cassandra in actually seeing your worst fears realised.

Lord Ahmed was supposed to be a moderate, but then so was Sacranie, Ramadan, and all the others the BBC used to trot out to prop up its collapsing "diversity" agenda. Yet still we get whitewash programmes on Islam, like Rageh Omaar's recent take on the Crusades. One could think of worse people to cover this subject, but not many.

One wonders if there are any moderate Muslims left in public life in Britain - if there are, they are keeping surprisingly quiet. Red Ken's friend (Qaradawi) has now unashamedly joined the SS, yet silence from Ken.

Sheila

As this link below points out: 'The truth of the matter is “Fitna” simply reflected how radical Muslims think and act, inspired by the Koran.

'Wilders’ comparison of the Koran to Adolf Hitler’s “Mein Kampf”, and his describing it as a fascist book, is not inappropriate. Hitler referred to the Jews as “rats and vermin” and the Koran and fascist Muslims call them “The descendants of apes and pigs”.'

Notice the way the European political elite are only too happy to see Geert Wilders prosecuted but as that same link notes: 'Most recently, demonstrators in Berlin and Munich and elsewhere in Germany raised banners reading: “Hamas! Hamas! Jews to the gas”.

'The police did not intervene or arrest anyone; nobody filed a legal proceeding against this blatant incitement to murder and genocide, which, in the German law, is punishable.'

Islam trumps everything in Europe.

http://www.islam-watch.org/Sami/Prosecution-of-Wilders-Opportunity-for-Exposing-Islam.htm

Conservative Cabbie

Bill M

"take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death." Deuteronomy 17:2-5

"If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die" Deuteronomy 22:23-24

"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him" Leviticus 24:16

Apparently there are 18 references to stoning in the bible and none in the Koran. My point was that the texts of the books are irrelevant, it is the practices of the adherents that should be judged, and for that Islamic extremism should be condemned.

George

Breaking news: Wilders has appealed to the Dutch Court and requested it to remove the case against him, saying that his remarks fall within the realm of normal discourse and that a prosecution against him is a "threat to his right of freedom of speech."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024696.php#respond

Imagine how different things might be in England if we had a man of the calibre of Geert Wilders.

Dixon

Dave
February 3rd, 2009 1:44pm
Well I've been part of a group of thousands protesting outside Parliament. If people want to cancel meetings that's up to them. But taking to the streets in protest seems the very point of freedom of speech."

Iview it differently. I have always regarded the mob as Humanity at its lowest ebb. Freedom of speech is precisely that. You are free to speak. Not disrupt other peoples freedom to move and conduct their lawful business.

I would ban all demonstrations, for the time being.

I would also ban public attendance at football matches. The disruption and potential for violence they cause is even worse.

You can ban the football as well for all I care.

Al Rassooli: Author of the book “Lifting the Veil: The True Faces of Muhammad and Islam”

Melanie, your article is excellent and your points well made. Keep up the excellent work. As you rightly say it is a total disgrace that the House of Lords can be hijacked and intimidated in this way, and a sad moment when it is cowed literally in Submission. Let’s hope sense and justice prevails and the Lords prove courageous enough to insist on watching Mr. Wilders short film (in which he says nothing but lets the Quran and spokes persons for Islam speak in their own voices for themselves).

Dave M

"It's all so mind-numbing that we just sit and watch it happen -- powerless to stop the decline of our own sysyem of values..."

I'm not so sure quite yet. I get the impression lately the working classes in Britain have had a belly full of immigration, political correctness and multiculturalism. As we all know, there is an uneasiness about what's taking place, especially the threat to employment via mass immigration which has now led to mass job walk-outs. Let's just look at the facts and cheer ourselves up a litte - we could use a bit of good news. First the Beeb actually backs off screening a pro Palestinian charity show. This is no doubt because they've been bombarded by irate letters over their biased coverage of Israel's military action. The fact is the Beeb has already received thousands of angry letters protesting over their slurs against Israel and defence of Hamas terrorists. That's why the Beeb backed down. Also, the working classes are turning against New Labour and dropping Brown like a proverbial bad habit. They're tired of coming second to immigrants, tired of losing the right of free speech (due to the Government's courting of Islam) and tired of not being given a say over the E.U.
One thing history teaches is even Lenin was apparently taken by surprise when the Russian Plebs rebelled against the Tsar Nicholas. Well, in Britain I think people have had enough too. Neither New Labour nor the Beb connect with normal working people any more and some of us are tired of hearing excuses made for terrorists.

Adam

Melanie, Thanks very much for writing about this topic, it is an absolute disgrace and shows just how far islamic appeasement has progressed in the UK.

My only thought is that you should have produced this in the Daily Mail as it deserves a wider audience.

the people in the UK need to know what is going on, the fact no other mainstream media have even mentioned this very real and very disturbing story is a blight on journalism.

gary ashton

thank you melanie, it's unbelievable that not one mainstream media outlet acknowledges this story.
over here we had an islamic cleric (yet again) giving a sermon to a group of young men saying how it is okay for the husband to beat up the wife.
this was immediately slammed by the australian media and our pm made a statement saying the cleric should apologize or be stood down.

Dave Coates

Hopefully "Lord" Ahmed is going to receive a lengthy jail sentence later this month, for causing death by dangerous driving. Don't hold your breath though!

Halls

PC has become the new truth - even though the reality could be staring you in the face -

What Lord Ahmed wants us to hear and believe is that Islam means peace and throughout its entire history - it has never used violence / jihad to spread the religion or to punish those who would not join or decided to leave.

Even though - there are glaring examples of this in the Koran -

Lord Ahmed - wants everyone to believe that the Koran - says nothing untoward about the Jews or the non-believer - even though we go to youtube and hear Muslims Imams saying these same things - because they are found in their Koran.

The PC surrounding Islam has gotten so ridiculous we are expected to say things about Islam - that we would not even say for Christianity.

The problem is that PC has become - the new propaganda - and Lord Ahmed threatened the House of Lords with 10,000 Muslim men - to keeps us all in line - with acceptable Islamic-speak. But this is not an Islamic nation - and thing kind of repression - well doesn't fit in with our way of life!!

Sarah

Conservative Cabbie,

Quoting the Old Testament is such a canard. Do you know that the New Testament replaces it? Why don't you tell us what replaces the Qur'an and Hadith, since you won't find it?

Ted Williams

This is for those posters who are trying to promote a moral equivalance between the Bible and the Koran.

The Law of Moses as outlined in the Old Testament was fufilled in Christ, meaning that it was no longer applicable since He brought in a higher law. The book of Hebrews in the New Testament explains this quite well.

The same cannot be said of Islam. The principle of abrogation means that where there is a conflict between an earlier passage and a later one, the later one will cancel out the earlier. So, the peaceful parts of the Koran are cancelled by the violent passages that were received later on and conflict with the peaceful doctrines.

Conservative Cabbie

Shank's Mare

"Repeat it to any Muslim customers you pick up"

Not if I want tips!

Annabel

It would be wise to ponder on the fatuous analysis of 'Fitna' by one of Europe's so-called intellectuals, Ian Buruma, who fails to acknowledge that Geert Wilders has received death threats and requires constant protection. http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/29/opinion/edbaruma.1-418385.php

Does Lord Ahmed wish to introduce a culture of violence and intimidation to the UK similar to the one prevailing in Holland? ('wish' may not be the right word as it seems his thuggery is already paying dividends)

Yes, Lord Ahmed should be asked to account for his morally repugnant and corrupt action.

Lucretius

Conservative Cabbie: You are being deliberately blind. Foundational texts of any ideology are the basis by which adherency is obtained. No, the order for stoning is not in the Koran (or Qur'an, either spelling is correct): the order for stoning is to be found in the ahadith (plural of hadith) of al-Bukhari and is also related in Ibn Ishaq's biography of Muhammad (M's first Moslem biographer). The hadiths (using English language plural) are the stories, sayings and facts about the life of Muhammad which, along with the Koran and the Sira (biography of Muhammad by Moslem biographers, principally Ibn Ishaq) form the basis of the holy texts of Islam.

In the Bukhari hadith relating the stoning, Muhammad demands of the Jews why they no longer obey their own laws. They explain they now 'name and shame' as we would say and employ some degree of compassion: they accuse the person(s) of adultery and, if guilty, the person(s) are flogged. The Jews no longer, in Muhammad's time (7th century) did stoning. Muhammad (with an army of his followers at his back) gives the order that the couple be stoned to death:

Ibn Ishaq p363 and Bukhari 5.64.4037.

The teachings, words and life of Jesus Christ, of course, are the basis of Western civilisation and He preached mercy, compassion AND repentance (to the adulteress, "Henceforth, go and sin no more").

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Sometimes when I go out I say can I have an English man or woman to serve me? there are hardly any, the labour government give jobs and respect the massive immigrants coming from all over the world, mostly the immigrants from the failing Islamic countries, they are the first to have accommodations and schools when the British are on the waiting list, then last few years there where ones from the EU countries, there are a lot of them, some of them say they are from Spain when they are from Mexico, and some say they are from Portugal when they are from Brazil, I knew this was going to create a problem, I saw the first time the British working class angry and expressing themselves for example walking out from their jobs I don't blame them, the working class can't find any jobs even working in the pub, everyone is foreigner now a days

ChakDePhatte

Margaret Muller-Johansson
February 4th, 2009 11:28am
Sometimes when I go out I say can I have an English man or woman to serve me? there are hardly any.
One of the many reasons there are so many is that many English people would see these jobs as "below them" and therefore refuse to do them. Of course have some kind of quota, but us English need to pull our fingers out and sometimes have to do the jobs that we dont much like doing.

I do not agree with what Lord Ahmed proposed, and it is a failure of the system to let this happen. Many of you here are complaining about Muslim Radicals - why does no one talk about the Jewish Radicals, and the Christian Fundamentalists - many of whom are based in the deep south of the US. Lets not forget, the IRA - a past terrorist organisation - were they not Christian?
The Qur'an (not Koran) is not much different to the Bible or the Torah. All three teach peace and love for all, regardless of race or religion before anything else. Each book can also be seen to incite violence, it depends on your interpretation. Let me ask, how many of you here that are commenting on the Qur'an have actually read it?
If we talk on the basis of faith, then Christians and Jews believe that the Old Testament and Torah are the word of god. Surely God will not produce texts that are now seen as "wrong". How can the Christians and Jews ignore / change certain verses of their scriptures - do they see the scriptures as being wrong and hence challenge their God? It is not to say that the Qur'an is always interpreted correctly. I disagree with many interpretations, especially those that incite violence, but lets not just narrow it down to one religion, all religions do that.

Farsee

From Belgravia to Belgrabia
to Eurabia. Not too long to
wait now.

Dixon

Conservative Cabbie, I know our overview is similar but I think you have swallowed the other lots wife on this one.

The Bible is an old collection of stories purporting to be accounts of what people actually said and did. some of them said things that contradict others, not least Jesus himself. Not least Moses and Abraham that bunch of throwbacks.

The Quoran is atterly and completely different. For a start, it has no narrative structure whatsoever. Its parts are organised in descending sequence of LENGTHs specifically preventing any narrative reading. More to the point, it is not an account of acts and statements but a direct, blow by blow set of prescriptions for all aspects of daily and community life, including exact directions on such matters as family law and inheritance.

Whilst many of these rules have been adjusted in the "Hadith", based on the statements and actions of Mohammed, the concept remains the same: that the prophets "teachings" are not parables but literal directives.

There is absolutely no paralell or similarity between the Bible and the Quoran. It is a staple red-herring of the apologists to state that they are alike.

One more thing, when people say we cannot really understand the Quoran unless we read it in the "original" Arabic, this is an hilarious howler: There was no written form of Arabic in Mohammeds lifetime. He dictated it to an amenuensis who would have transcribed it into an older language, perhaps Aramaic.

So the "original" Arabic version of the book is itself a translation.

Jemar Fasil

Thanks Dixon, Arabic came later then Aramaic, Hebrew and Amharic
ChakDePhatte, what is the difference between Koran & Qur'an? I thought the real saying is Quraan
it is the same as saying
Abdullah & Abdallah,
Hussein & Husseiyn
just the same thing

ChakDePhatte

indeed there was no written arabic in the time of Mohammed, but what was passed to him by the angel as the word of God was memorised and later on written down.
On the point that the Qur'an and the Bible have no similarity; is the Old Testament not the word of God? The same God which refers to the Bible in the Qur'an and refers to Jesus more times in the Qur'an than Mohammad himself?
The Qur'an is not in descending sequence of length. there are many verses in the middle that are shorter than the ones at the end. Yes it does give a blow by blow set of prescriptions - but are these prescriptions wrong? if analysed many of these blow by blow accounts are either the same or slight refintements of what is in the Old Testament or the Torah.
p.s. Dixon, you have not referred to the Torah at all - any points on that? If Judaism and Islam are so different then why are Muslims allowed to eat Kosher meat as it is slaughtered in the same manner? If Christianity and Judaism are so different from Islam then why are Muslims allowed to marry Jewish and Christian women without them having to convert to Islam?
We need to look further than just the few verses that some extremist has spewed on television and look at the whole religion, not just a few verses that have been incorrectly interpreted and full explanation for that interpretation not provided.

stanley Jerusalem

Ted Williams and Sarah- Sorry to disappoint you but it's only Christian doctrine that your New Testament replaces ours. We Jews don't think that you are right about that, only justifying your own dogma. We don't even refer to own bible as the Old Testament since that would presuppose the existence of a 'New' one.One may as well refer to the Koran as the 'newest' Testament; of course folks like Richard Reid do only nowadays they throw their shoes rather than blow them up.

stanley Jerusalem

Jemar Fasil
February 4th, 2009 3:04pm
It's called transliteration and is determined only by which language you are going from and to.
E.G. In French the English letter K is represented by Q and the sound SH- by CH-.

Simon

Here's a few thoughts about the Torah from a Christian (of non-Jewish descent), who is very appreciative and sympathetic of Jews. I just offer my take on this.

I think it is wrong to suggest or imply that the modern state of Israel should 'bring back stoning', or

re-model their society on the judicial laws of what I call the Old Testament. Melanie Phillips does not even suggest for that, nor does any Jew that I know of.

I am not convinced by the argument that these laws were intended for all Jewish states, or for that old Jewish state that was wiped out (as a state) in the first centiry AD - or whatever this is in the Jewsish calendar. Here's why:

Readers of the Torah will notice that the laws are moral. Because given by God, who is moral and who

determines what is moral. Looking closer at the laws, we see that there are underlying moral principles

(which are, surely, for all mankind and are the moral standards to which God holds all of us accountable). Then there are the God-prescribed civil penulties, which were not for all mankind but specific for the old nation of Israel. We see a scale of seriousness of crimes, and we see that these were to be brought before the tribal elders (minor), Levites (more serious) and the special God-anointed Judges of those days (most serious). They were to attempt to determine the truth of any accusation againse people who were brought before them, and then pass sentance.

Note: according to the Torah, these civil magistrates alone were authorised by God to judge cases and to pass such sentances. And they were to do so sitting in the city gates or in the special place that God would choose to put his name (which we later find was the court of the Temple. That was the highest court of the land.

Is there any justification for putting these judicial laws (the prescribed sentances) back on to the

'statute books' of the modern state of Israel? Not unless they have the same God-ordained tribal elders, Levites and Judges.

But as with all other nations, the modern state of Israel should, so I think, to base their laws on the

moral law of God. This is the Ten commandments and all that can be deduced from them, or in other words, the moral principles underlying the Torah's judicial laws. Like as with all nations, they can look at the Torah's civil laws and underatsnd them, and use them as examples - not necessarily to be implimented "as-is" today, but they should develop similar judicial laws for the judicial system and judges that they now have.

I think this because God's moral standards have not changed, but time and circumstances have. What was sin in God's eyes then, he still holds to be sin now, and he always will.

So there is room, I think, for some differences in the way these things are judged and sentenced in any

nation.

But is there scope for no longer holding some things to be *crimes* any more? Perhaps someone can build an argument, based on God's word (Old or New Testament), which allows some things that were treated as crimes in the old nation of Israel (e.g., adultery) to be no longer treated as crimes by our modern states. But I've only heard arguments that require a rejection of God's word and his moral standard.

-+-+-+-

One final thought about recent (sometimes well-meaning) opinion seen on this blog for all Jews to

emmigrate to the modern state of Israel. I see a reason why this should not be done: nobody should not

be forbidden to live anywhere in the world that they may choose, or be encouraged to "go home" (whether by threat or anti-semitism or good intentions) to their homeland. The homes of Jews are anywhere they choose to live in this world. Same for any other people, surely.

My prayer to God is that he will prevent Iran or any other Islamist state/group to destroy the nation of Israel by nuclear bomb - or by any other method.

These men, so we hear from their own broadcasts, think it is moral to wipe out the nation of Israel, and to kill Jews and attack their property and businesses. This they get from their religious books.

Surely, God disagrees with them.

May God bless and protect you and your family and people, Melanie Phillips.

And may we who love the Jewish people and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob do all that we can and more (with God's enabling) to help and protect the Jews from those who wish them all dead.

-+-+-+-

I suppose now that those who hate Geert Wilders for his views regarding the Koran to Mein Kamp will be offended at me for fearing that - and saying that - we may have to all be hiding Jews in our back rooms. I can't help myself from fearing this: it's just what I see happening, and increasingly happening, all around this world.

I hope there are many more Moslems who would resist this threatening (and already happening) war against the Jews as much as we all should. I would appreciate them standing up and opposing their brothers who are arming themselves and breathing all these threats.

Now, if you please. Quickly.

If yours is really a religion of peace, then do what you can to stop this war against the Jewish people.

And against all the rest of us.

cynical poster

Any chance this won't be going down the rabbit hole of the Spectator, as does almost any other posting which clearly states Islam's doctrines or facts about Mohamed?

Doctrine of Abrogation explains why the violent verses (and Suras) in the Koran take precedence:

http://www.meforum.org/article/1754

John Edwards

Does Melanie Phillips agree with her former Spectator blog colleague Stephen Pollard, current editor of the Jewish Chronicle that:
1) Lord Ahmed should apologise for hosting a book launch by someone call Israel Shamir (who apparently has anti-semitic view) and presumably never repeat the invitation to visit the House of Lords.
2) Lord Ahmed should lose the Labour whip (Pollard phoned the Labour leadership in the Lords to demand precisely that).

I think she (and Pollard for that matter) should explain why the principle of free speech should be applied differently to these two extremist individual.

Also when does a protest outside Parliament become "threats and intimidation"?

Muchi Puji

ChakDePhatte you posted how can Jewish and Christians ignore/change certain verses of their scriptures? I think they modernise their religions they don't change much, that is why they are peaceful to woman and children, remember we are living at the 21 century, I think the muslims should modernize their believes as well, look people like the Taliban and other exterimists who are living like ancient times the way they treat woman, it is not attractive, yes there are extremist Jewish and Christian fundamentalists etc, but you never see them going a pizza restaurant and blowing themselves and others up, Okay I know the Muslim religion can be a peaceful one but unfortunately many young people are not using that peace, it is like saying I am a rich man but wearing dirty old clothes

Greg in MN of USA

Well it looks like you Brits just might have a backbone after all.
If this keeps up you folks actually might be able to take your country back, Hmmm or am I dreaming

ChakDePhatte

Simon - I agree, Muslims, Christians and Jews are all descendants of Abraham, the discoverer of monotheism. I am not one for the state of Israel to be wiped from the face of this earth. I don’t care if that piece of land is called Israel or not. People tend to have this misconception that the Palestinians have an issue with Jewish people. That is incorrect. They have an issue with their land being forced from them and not being relocated (a refugee camp does not count). It just so happens that the people forcing them off their own land are Jews. Were they not all living peacefully until 1967 by which time the state of Israel had encroached upon much of Palestinian land? What was their reason for doing so? They say that land is their right. but I though Judaism was a progressive religion, and if so then should they be taking scriptures from thousands of years ago and applying them to modern day living.

Muchi - if you read my posts properly, you will understand that I myself have an issue with fundamentalism in Islam. I’m not denying it's there, if anything I am denouncing it and am all for getting rid of all those that promote fundamentalism. Suicide in Islam is forbidden, and so is the harming of innocent people. Therefore a suicide bomber in the name of Islam is a contradiction in terms. The word Islam itself is derived from the Arabic for Peace. It annoys me when people kill in the name of religion. War is sometimes inevitable but even then if you take Muslims who fight then they must adhere to the rules of War that have been prescribed. You imply that women and children are not at peace in Islam. You might say that because of women covering their faces in public. Then maybe I should make clear that the covering of the face is not a religious act, it is a cultural one. Islam only requires women to cover their hair and to wear loose fitting garments, so as to not attract attention to the female body. They are allowed to and are promoted to go to school and even to work. The Dean of Islamic Jurisprudence at the Al-Azhar University in Cairo is in fact a woman. There are many high ranking Muslim women. My cousin who is a Muslim is an MP in London. The fact that certain cultures have been followed and people have not argues why certain things are done which are contradictory to their religion is an issue. People are confusing their culture (which in many cases is un-Islamic) with their religion.

We need more home grown (UK) imams. Ones that understand the culture we live in and can direct young Muslims in the right way. How to co-operate with each other and live in harmony. When you have Muslims living in a foreign land, then Islam itself tells you to follow the local rules, as generally most laws are based on the same principles. You must learn to cooperate with each other and live in peace, to not oppress the other etc. it's not complicated. To be a good Muslim you really only need be a "good" person - don’t oppress, don’t hurt anyone’s feelings, help others, be charitable etc. but if only we could get these points across in the media. Unfortunately they are too busy scaremongering the public as that is what is going to get them their ratings.

Finally a bit about the Jewish state of Israel - would someone like to explain this paragraph to me which is taken from the Declaration of Establishment of State of Israel, Tel-Aviv 1948.
" THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations". (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/Declaration+of+Establishment+of+State+of+Israel.htm)
Faithful to the principles of the charter of the UN – someone remind me again how many UN resolutions Israel is floundering?

Alexandrovich

ChakDePhatte: "...many English people would see these jobs as "below them" and therefore refuse to do them."

No. The British have fought for hundreds of years for the dignity of a fair day's pay for a fair day's work.

And then third-worlders come along and do the jobs for peanuts. The British don't mind getting their hands dirty but they don't like working in sweatshops either, receiving less than the minimum wage and the indignity which goes with it.

The first thing I did, when circumstance landed me in this wonderful country, was to learn its history.

ChakDePhatte

Greg in MN of USA - we definitely have more of a backbone than the Americans!

Dixon

ChakDePhat...I was referring to the lengths of the books, not the verses. The last book, Surah 114 An-Nas ( Mankind ) has only one paragraph comprising a list of six statements.

Meanwhile, I dont refer to the Torah because I was addressing spurious paralells with the Bible. The Torah I cannot speak of but nor was it the topic under duscussion.

To say the Quoran and Old Testament are alike because they are both the Word of God is not correct. They are both the word of men pretending to speak for God and as the word of men they are alike in those terms only in so far as ALL texts are the word of men!

As for the Quoran having been memorised from the word of Gabriel or Gebreel and then dictated some decades later, this was still a dictation by Mohammed and therefore in his lifetime. Before there was a written form of Arabic, as you yourself concede. So it must have been transcribed by the person taking the dictation into one of those other languages of the region. Hence my point that the Arabic Quoran is as much a translation as the Abdulluh Yusuf Ali English version that I have.

Conservative Cabbie

Sarah

"Quoting the Old Testament is such a canard"

If that's the case, why do so many Christians believe in the creation of Genesis and Moses' ten commandments. Isn't the word of God applicable regardless of whether it is old or new testament.

I'm not seeking to rubbish Christianity, just making the point the religious texts can be selectively interpreted as Wilders did with Fitna.

Augustus

ChakDePhatte- Fundamentalists in all religions there may be - Christian monks in closed order, sworn to poverty, self-denial, chastity, obedience - these are fundamentalists. Ascetics exist in all religions, but they do no advocate indiscriminate mass murder of men, women and children. That is the key. Judge all religions and sects by that and you will see that a wish to return to the basic teachings is not terrorism, for in no religion, including Islam,
do the basic teachings advocate mass murder.

So what are the jihadists of today if they are not fundamentalists? Even 'jihad' is the wrong word. Of course jihad exists, but it had rules. Either it is a personal struggle with oneself to become a better Muslim, in which case it is non-aggressive. Or it means true holy war. Armed struggle in defence of Islam. that's what the terrorists claim they are about. But they choose to airbrush the rules out of the text. For one thing, jihad can only be declared by a legitimate Koranic authority of proven and accepted repute. Bin Laden and all his acolytes are notorious for their lack of scholarship. Even if the West had indeed humiliated, hurt, or demeaned Islam, and thus all Muslims, there are still specific rules, and the Koran is clear on these: "It is forbidden to attack and kill those who have offered no offence and done nothing to hurt you. It is forbidden to kill women and children. It is forbidden to take hostages. And it is forbidden to mistreat, torture, or kill prisoners."
The terrorists and their followers do all four on a regular basis. And let us not forget that they have killed far more Muslims than Christians or Jews. The planters of bombs in trains, buses, and shopping malls are not going back to the basics of Islam. They are writing their own script, then arguing retroactively, seeking to find Koranic passages to justify their war. That is the falsehood of their onslaught on the West. That is what Fitna and the message from Wilders should be about.

KateA

ChakDePhatte: "People tend to have this misconception that the Palestinians have an issue with Jewish people. That is incorrect. They have an issue with their land being forced from them and not being relocated (a refugee camp does not count). It just so happens that the people forcing them off their own land are Jews."
------------------------------------------------

This is taqiyya (double-speak). We know of the Jew-hatred taught to Palestinian children in school and on television; we know of the injunctions of Muslim clerics to kill Jews; we have read the Charter of Hamas and much, much more.

Historically you are also incorrect. No such thing as a Palestinian nation existed before 1967. No land of Palestine belonging to Arabs is recorded on any map of the area which was a province of Turkey for 400 years. The Turks had little regard for their Muslim (Arab) 'brothers'.

Go to the official Jordan web site. There you will find that the land bought by the Zionists belonged to Ottoman absentee landlords.

You will find descriptions of that land which correlate to British government documents of the Mandate describing it as 'wasteland'. You will find on the Jordan website details of 400 years of Ottoman (Turk) rule. Of a transient Arab population; of villages that were deserted as the Arabs moved on.

You will find that 70% of the territory mandated to the British was given to the Arabs (Hashamites). You will find that the remaining 30% was divided by UN resolution between the remaining Arabs and Jews.

The Jews accepted their portion. The Arabs refused theirs and attacked the new state of Israel.

The migration of Arabs into the British Mandate, from Syria, Egypt et al, came about through the hard labour of the Zionists. In transforming the desert, that wasteland left by Arabs and Turks, they offered work and economic advantage to poverty-stricken Arabs.

Do, at least, check the historical facts from an impartial source e.g. British Mandate documents, or even Arab documents of the period, before presenting your partisan opinion as fact.

Conservative Cabbie

Dixon

I'm thinking perfectly independently on this point. I am not being an apologist for The Quoran, nor for radical Islam, nor for Lord Ahmed who has behaved despicably. I'm not having a go at Christianity nor am I trying to draw equivalencies between the two books. All I am trying to point out, obviously poorly, is that selective interpretations of religious texts do not provide a valuable insight into a faith, whether it be Islam or Christianity. My memory of Fitna is that it selects certain texts from the Quoran which exhort it's readers to commit violence. Now I'm no expert on the book, have never read it and am perfectly willing to be contradicted, but I am sure that the complete text of the Quoran is not a call to violence. I am sure there are "love thy neighbour" equivalents in there to. If that is the case, Geert Wilders has been somewhat selective in his film.

"blow by blow set of prescriptions"

Hang on, Aren't the Ten Commandments quite literally a "blow by blow set of prescriptions"? And what about Genesis? Millions of Christians believe that to be historical accuracy. "An eye for an eye..." is also taken as gospel (if you pardon the expression) as well. The Old Testament can't be relied on as a legitimate source one moment, and then rejected when it is not convenient because no-one likes what certain parts of it say.

Hopefully I've made myself a little clearer.

Original Tony

KateA..11:17pm....very well said!! So few people know the history of Israel that it beggars belief!!

ChakDePhatte

Dixon - believe what you may about the texts being the word of man or the word of god, but there is no denying that the basics of all holy scriptures are the same and promote love and peace. dependant on your interpretation they also all promote violence. i have never said that one should only read the Qur'an in arabic. all i want is for people to read a translation of the Qur'an that isn't written by a fundamentalist.

Augustus - i fully agree. No religion can promote violence, and for those to promote violence in the name of a religion is incorrect. they are nothing more than mere terrorists; and a terrorist can not be affiliated to a religion. Jihad is the incorrect term for what Bin Laden etc. are doing.

KateA - agreed, i should have done a little more research from even more a variety of sources; and i shall do that now. you mention the hatred against jews taught in schools in Palestine. when these people have been oppressed for so long, it automatically brings about a certain amount of hatred. you get this in schools in Cyprus - there is widespread hatred for the Turkish there. no it shouldnt be taught in schools, it shouldnt be taught anywhere, but continuing the oppression doesnt help alleviate the spread of this hatred. if anything, it shoud be as Augustus mentioned, a Jihad against oneself, for not agreeing to accept or spread this hatred.

Conservative Cabbie - with you there 100%

also can someone come back to me on my last paragraph, regarding the Declaration of Establishment of State of Israel and Israel's promise to be faithful to all UN Charters etc.

Conservative Pedestrian

To Conservative Cabbie:

Doctrine of Abrogation in Islam (Naskh). There are 4 passages in the Koran that explain it.

To put it as simply as possible:

Those Suras (Chapters) and Verses which were recorded later are the ones which take superiority over earlier ones. It all comes down to expediency: Mohamed didn't write anything, the Koran states he was illiterate. He was a warlord for the last 9 years of his life, that's how, and why, Islam spread as an ideology, it made him ruler of Arabia and his tribe the wealthiest (all those captives, land and riches taken in battle).

A Moslem will quote to you Sura 2.256 "Let there be no compulsion in religion" which sounds tolerant, but that Verse, and literally many hundreds of others in the Koran, were abrogated by the Sword Verse (9.5) and others throughout Sura 9 and 8 (considered the last recorded in the Koran, though, of course, not seemingly so by numerical ordering). These later verses call for the forced conversion, persecution in dhimmitude, or deaths of all non-Moslems until Islam is the only belief in the world.

Note to Peter Hoskins: Would you kindly put this up, it's getting ridiculous to see how one person's ignorance of Doctrine of Abrogation is distorting the subject of this thread. Thank you.

Adam B.

ChakdePhatte - you say that Palestinian schools teach negative views of Jews because they are "oppressed" - utter nonsense. I'm afraid denigrating views of Jews in Islamic nations predate the existence of Israel. Your "explanation" sounds remarkably like an excuse for outright Jew hatred. Again, you need to do more research.

Roy Clements

Conservative Cabbie doesn't understand that the Law of Moses containing the "eye for an eye" and stoning for adultery commandments came to an end with the death of the Lord Jesus Christ. He took it (the Law) away, "nailing it to his cross." Religious Jews do not recognise the Messiahship of Christ but the Christian doctrine which is the result of his teaching and that of the apostles contains no such prescriptions.

Dixon

Conservative Cabbie. I know you are not an apologist for anyone mate. I was merely suggesting that on this spurious paralell between the Bible and Quoran you had fallen foul of one of the mis-directions that the conjurors of moral relativism use to deceive us.

Im surprised that you havent read the Quoran. Get one. You really HAVE to! Lets be frank, most of it is a very boring list of assertions about the world and rules for life. Indeed, it reads like a blessed instruction manual for a Korean TV set!

But then there are the amazing bits! A good percentage of the book is taken up with describing the horrors of damnation. The bit that really sticks in your mind for a long time is the recurring lovingly exact description of being forced to drink molten brass! This pops up repeatedly

In fact, the book is such a terrifying string of spine-chilling threats and menaces that I was about ready to give up and become a Muslim by about a third of the way through!

It is no wonder that unsophisticated, uneducated people in remote places fed this stuff from birth become the fanatically obsessed people they are! It is TERRIFYING!

Equally instructive is the recurring description of paradise as rolling green lawns with a river running through it. Exactly what you would think of as "heaven" if you grew up in a desert!

This is an interesting illustration of how the Q unwittingly reflects it specificality to a particular place and time!

Dixon

ChakDePhatte
February 5th, 2009 12:07pm
Dixon - believe what you may about the texts being the word of man or the word of god, but there is no denying that the basics of all holy scriptures are the same and promote love and peace. dependant on your interpretation they also all promote violence. i have never said that one should only read the Qur'an in arabic. all i want is for people to read a translation of the Qur'an that isn't written by a fundamentalist."

My observation was not directed at you. But OTHER folks DO make that assertion ( that the English translation is not valid ).

As for the Love and Peace assertion...I dont see it. ANYWHERE in ANY religion. ALL religions seem quite manifestly about pain and oppression. That said, from what ive seen of it, maybe Hinduism is an exception. Oh, what about Kali and Thugee?

westerners like to think Buddhism is all sweetness and light. But imagine you are a poor Tibetan whose only hope of getting a sone educated is to give him for life to a brainwashing facility ( ahem , monastery ) which then you must forever donate a chunk of the meagre yield of your daily toil?

Buddhism REALLY IS oppression!

Please point out to me a an established old religion that actually endorses pleasure?

Conservative Cabbie

Dixon

"you had fallen foul of one of the mis-directions that the conjurors of moral relativism"

I agree with you about the evils of moral relativism. I like to judge people by the content of their character and their actions, not by the books they read.

While I'm all for increasing my education, I'm probably going to be sticking with my political books and avoid religious texts, it's getting me in to too much hot water.

Byron in Wahroonga

"ye shall stone them with stones that they die"

Dang. Saddened to find you're a militant atheist, CC. Just by the way, Christ revoked Mosaic law during the 'let him cast the first stone' incident.

But keep trolling through Leviticus and Deuteronomy if it enhances your sense of self-worth.

Joan

As a very amazed New Zealander and not being at all versed with the UK Parliament, please would some kind person inform me how Ahmed became a 'Lord' and after such a wicked mistake, how you get rid of him.

Linda Smith

People interested in the activities of Lord Ahmed may be interested in a Jewish Chronicle article "Muslim Peer in 'Student War' Slur" dated February 5: "Muslim peer has claimed that student societies are recruiting young British Jews to join the Israeli army. They fought, he said, in last month's Gaza conflict and should be prosecuted for war crimes on their return to this country........The Union of Jewish Students said the peer's allegations were part of a 'continued campaign' against British Jewis organisations..........The House of Lords Whips Office said it was unlikely action would be taken against Lord Ahmed following his comments."

You may also be interested to know that the House of Lords is debating Gaza today, 6 Feb.

stanley Jerusalem

Joan
February 6th, 2009 3:56am
Well the vindictive and anti-semitic establishment here managed to strip old Sir Jack Lyons of his knighthood after the Guinness Affair but who would dare touch our sacred Muslim peer?

pete ferguson

in wilders film, fitna, he

1. quotes from the koran

2. shows muslim clerics quoting the koran

3. shows muslims carrying out these teachings

if lord ahmed is so concerned and offended why does he not mobalise against these imans and terrorists saying and acting on the same things wilders quotes.

martin

Why on earth is a Pakistani Muslim who has welcomed appalling Jew haters into our parliament, in the Lords ?

I know of no great achievements by Mr Ahmed, that have brought benefits to our country.

Herbert Thornton

Intimidation seems to be now operating in a far bigger forum than the House of Lords - access on the Internet to the video "What The West Needs To Know" has just become blocked.

American Non-Dhimmi

Peter Hoskins: Please put this up asap:

Anyone wishing to view FITNA or WHAT THE WEST NEEDS TO KNOW:

go to
www.jihadwatch.org
On the home page, left hand side, scrolling down, click on either FITNA or WHAT THE WEST NEEDS TO KNOW logos and it will take you to screening (click on smaller pictures, Bush, Blair, et all, to see it in English in installments if main screen doesn't work).

Atiq Malik

Will you welcome Iranian President in the House of Lords if invited by Lord Ahmed to speak on holocaust?

fiona

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak

this is Wafa Fatmi in the states just demolishing the rationales given for radical islam. she's a female, muslim psychologist and desrves a nobel prize for common sense and a 24 hour security detail for life (which sh'ell need afte this, unfortunately). What is a glimmer of hope is that this clip is from Al Jazeera tv!

Osman

Melanie is cooking up another toxic brew for the masses. We know the BBC has been taken over by the Isreali government, Will Melanie rant about that serious issue.

Observer

Melanie is quite right in her article about this very serious issue. I would encourage those who are concerned about the threat to our democratic freedoms to obtain a copy of the DVD 'Islam: What The West Needs to Know' available from
http://www.whatthewestneedstoknow.com/index.asp

Conservative Cabbie

Byron

Actually I trolled through Google.

You obviously haven't read all my posts or you would realise that I am neither militant nor atheist nor all that bothered about the relationship between Old and New Testament. I used a quote to make a point - that selective textual interpretations of religious texts should not be used to judge a religion. I said to Dixon earlier, that I judge people by their actions not their faith. Well considering the knee-jerk reaction of a number of Christians in this thread, my infinite respect for them is becoming a damn sight less infinite.

Conservative Pedestrian

Conservative Cabbie: I've read all your posts and I've also noticed that you appear to have ignored my specific comment (and the other more generalised ones of other commenters) drawing your attention to the Doctrine of Abrogation in Islam by which the later verses take precedence and this approach, for the past millenia and one half, has been the accepted one among Moslem theologians and all schools of islamic jurisprudence. Do try reading a link which contains the information, instead of banging on with your outworn nonsense about 'selective textual interpretations.'

http://www.meforum.org/article/1754

It's entitled Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam. It also deals with the concept of defensive and offensive warfare from the Moslem perspective.

Al Rassooli, author of the book “Lifting the Veil: The True Faces of Muhammad and Islam”

Osman, in your post (Feb 6th at 9:10pm), apart from spelling “Israeli” incorrectly, you make the extraordinary claim that “We know the BBC has been taken over by the Isreali (sic) government”. Let’s ignore the question of whom you mean by “we”; perhaps you are a member of some cult or secret society but obviously that’s your business.

The fact remains (even though disputed by a few people) that the BBC has been demonstrably anti-Israeli (and generally pro-Islam) for quite some time now. If there were the slightest truth in your bizarre claim that the Israeli Government had somehow “taken over” the BBC can you then explain exactly why they should consistently chose to quickly report anti-Israeli rumours but then fail to ever mention those news stories when the truer, normally strongly pro-Israeli, facts subsequently emerge?

(Incidentally, in case you think me biased I’d like to point out I was born in Iraq, currently live in Europe and have never been an Israel myself).

As for your attempted slight of Melanie (whom I greatly admire) asking if she will “rant about that serious issue” I think she has already given you the answer in a number of her recent articles on subjects relating to the BBC in connection with Israel, for example http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/debatesearch/article-1127433/MELANIE-PHILLIPS-The-BBC-won-8217-t-Gaza-appeal-protect-impartiality-But-viewers-really-believe-impartial.html (please forgive the rather long link, but I recommend you try cutting and pasting it into your browser and reading what she wrote).

Kind Regards,
Al Rassooli.

Conservative Cabbie

CP

"instead of banging on with your outworn nonsense about 'selective textual interpretations.'

I wouldn't need too if it wasn't for certain pedestrian commentators (if you pardon the pun).

A study of the Qur'an is not something I'm particularly interested in, but as you were kind enough to provide the link, I followed it. Look what I found as the conclusion: "it is crucial for non-Muslims and moderate Muslims alike to recognize that interpretation of Islamic doctrine can have two faces, and that the Medinan face may very well continue to overshadow the Meccan face for a major portion, if not the majority, of contemporary Muslims." Sorry to "bang on about it" but is that not "selective interpretation"?

I made a point, loads of people had a go at me about it which is fine, they're entitled, but I'm quite happy with the point I made. If you want to get shirty, feel free but I'm done with this subject now. Melanie's made a post about Obama and that's more in my ballpark, so I'm off to read that. Good day, and I hope to enjoy further discussions on points not related to Islam.

I'm sorry, I didn't reply to your original post, I only get an hour or two a day to follow all the blogs that I do. Not enough time for everything.

ShakirQureshi

I'VE POSTED MY VIEWS ON THIS BLOG ON 08-02-09. IT'S NOT THERE YET.
IS THERE ANY THING WRONG IN MY VIEWS?
PLEASE ANSWER.

Marc

"The archbishop of Mecca just opened the fifth largest cathedral of the town. The archbishop, who used to be prime-minister of the country, formerly known as a muslimstronghold, urged christians to respect what's left of what once was a 'great' culture".

Jan-Kees Holland

Another "victory for the Muslim community"
Dhimmitude rules once again.

Wilders won't be allowed into the UK.
Shame on you!

Namaste

www.apostatesofislam.com

check that site, but beware... realistic movies, you will notice that Fitna is just 15 minutes of Horror that you can switch on and off as you like, but for other people that horror will last their whole live...generation after generation. I am in shock that England, when it finally shows her pale old Face, it is a Dhimmy face...shame on you scared people...no guts at all...who goes around with dogs, will end up with fleas, and even though that may sound nasty, it's absolutely nothing compared for bowing out of fear for muslims...

Rowy

We shall go on to the end. We shall give up our fight in Europe and on the seas and oceans; we shall surrender with growing confidence and growing belief in our enemy. We shall surrender our island whatever the cost may be; we shall surrender on beaches, grounds, in fields, in streets and on the hills. We shall surrender and even if this island or a large part of it is subjugated and starving, then our former empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the belief in their God, will carry on the struggle until in His good time the Old World with all its diminished power and might, stops knowing what freedom is.

The Flying Dutchman

Great Britain is completely lost in the cesspool of islamic and leftist bigotry and political correctness.

Your island was once the only European country free of nazi occupation, now it seems you are going to be the first of all European countries to be occupied and ruled by Moslems.

Good job - but not really -.

William Frisyan

Unbelievable. Even our most left-wing politicians (groen Links (= Green Left) are defending our freedom of free speech and are amazed about the cowardice of the English.
Maybe our two worlds are to far apart.
One is going Islam and seems to like it, the other on is trying with all it's might to stop the tide.
Freedom is a word you can no longer use in this once proud nation with the oldest democracy of the world.
And the BBC is silent.
As always.
In Holland this is (fromt left to right) the most important issue (and the crisic of course) but you are still in a swamp of political correctness)

Keith

Wouldn't the best thing be to simply scrap ALL these wretched 'monotheistic' religions? At least you don't get all this rubbish with polytheism.

Ed

The question is not religion but our common enemy, that wants to dominate and take away our real freedom. Freedom of worship and to serve God for true believers without intimidating others. These people want to control the world by using your cherished values and your ignorance against you. All God fearing people must expose their deceits and evil. Any religion or ideology that promotes the destruction of others for you to gain ground must not be tolerated. We must expose their true face and not dance with them. No fear in doing this. Truth and love for mankind must prevail over such mindsets. No one should be allowed to hide under their position of influence to promote contrary, destructive and divisive ideas.

Stelwagen

Has the Holocaust really been taken out of British schoolbooks?