Rights and wrongs out of control

Neil Turner

Spot on Melanie

New world - new rules of engagement required. We can't "play fair" with these people

The Israelis get this, and have vowed to respond "disproportionally" to Hamas. One example of the "new rules/new war" thinking, which I think has been reasonably effective

steve

"He added that control orders would not be suitable for any former Guantánamo Bay detainees returned or accepted into the UK." Sorry, but there are already former Guantanamo Bay detainees who have returned and are living in the UK without control orders. Even the U.S. admits that most of the current inmates at Guantanamo are not terrorists.

And it is not just "human rights" people who are questioning the Pentagon statistics. Peter Bergen, who knows a little bit about the topic, has pointed out that the Pentagon has a very generous definition as to what constitutes "returning to the fight."

Finally, how do we know that those know involved in terrorism after leaving Guantanamo were not radicalized by their treatment at the hands of the Americans? There is a general consensus that the best recruiter the IRA ever had was thanks to internment as innocent people found themselves rounded up and in some cases brutalized.

JohnAnt

Difficult to know what to do in the face of a monopolistic liberal judiciary and a people whose residual moral and political values seem to be based entirely on the wish to be 'nice'.

Alex Creel

Whilst holding the principles of the law - fairness and even handedness above any knee jerk reaction. They are the principles which give us moral authority and any move to undermine them lowers us to the level of our enemies.

Dixon

But how can we convince the sheep about us?

All we can do is wait until it happens and say "We told you so".

This is partly why I have completely written-off on my previous sense of impending disaster and instead adopted the position that I should'nt give a proverbial monkeys about what happens.Let it happen. I'll be passing on in a few years anyway. Let the sheep go down to the slaughter.

We've tried to warn them. Why should we worry about what happens to them through their stupidity?

But I tell you wot, the coming generations of the lefties kids will loathe the defeatist dimmocky grandparents who threw away all their freedoms.

Andre

The problem is we cannot trust the government or the police to lock up or indeed shoot the right people. Do we simply lock up suspects for ever? Clearly not. Under what law do we bring 'em to book? 'Conspiracy to Kill' We do not need new laws but convicton, energy. This is not a new kind of warfare it is an age old struggle between good and evil. The British need to define once again what they stand for and who they are. Are we the linear defenders of judeo-christian belief and culture? If so then we need to say so, and refute Islam - for it is simply wrong. Beware false prophets - by their fruits shall you know them. This winter we see a picture of a nation on the run: running away from snow - schools all closed. The police running away from muslin demonstrators, Cameron on the run from capitalism. This is not the fault of the politicians. I believe we get the leaders we deserve: their lack of purpose mirrors a nation mired in drugs and alcohol and sex abuse, laziness, profligacy and insouciance.

Daibhidh MacAdhaimh

Surely in situations like this the government has the moral and authorative capacity to make decisions that trump the ideologically driven, morally unhinged absurdities of groups such as the 'human rights' lobby? Parliaments responsibility is to protect the nation not the touchy feely, misguided sensitivities of an out of touch with reality core. Where this potentially dangerous issue is concerned, is there no politician tough and common sensical enough to dismiss this arguably insane rump for what it is? Another liberal fetish devoid of a moral compass.

Ian L

Seems to be a case of damned if you do, "damned of you don't". If the prisoners are released and go back to a peaceful existence then they will be considered as always having been innocent - always possible of course, but equally likely is that after their lengthy spell of captivity they have realised that all they want to do is get back to a normality of sorts without having to put their lives on the line for their cause.

On the other hand however, if they revert to terrorism, there will be those who claim as Steve suggests above, that they have only become radicalised as a result of their treatment at Guantanamo and not that they were terrorists prior to their incarceration.

For the proponents of closing down Guantanamo Bay therefore it's a case of "Heads I win, tails you lose".

Brian O'Connor

Mel wrote:

I have argued throughout that both the Guantanamo and control orders fiascos in the US and Britain arose because the west is facing an entirely new phenomenon: asymmetric warfare which conforms neither to our conventional definition of war (between states) nor of terrorism (discrete and limited goals).

Exactly. Ralph Peters wrote an article entitled Taliban From Outer Space that dovetails nicely with this, providing examples to make the point.

N

Dixon,

You make a good point, but what am i and people like me -young (22) and not left wing nut bars- supposed to do? Where you may be "passing on" some of us have a while. I'd rather live to "pass on" instead of being killed by either a) my own people sticking up for the "rights" of our enemies b) the stupidity of my people or c) Islamofacists taking over my country. So, where in some case the "screw you, learn your lesson, i tried to tell you" attitude may have worked, i don't think that it will work now. How do expect people to learn anyway when under Islamofacisim women aren't allowed to go to school?

Winston Smith

Oddly enough, I was thinking of Douglas Adams' Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy and that the second most intelligent animals on the Earth(after the mice), the dolphins, had tried to warn the people of impending doom, but couldn't. So, at the last minute they simply 'left' the planet leaving a message "So Long and thanks for all the Fish".
I tend to agree with Dixon(February 4th, 2009 2:04pm).

The very fact that we have signed up to EU control(although the population is vehemently against it, hence no referendum) therefore allowing no control of our own borders whatsoever, meaning that we can't deport terrorists to their own countries, shows that we need to break away from the EU asap!
I am still somewhat perplexed that it's ok for foreign terrorists to come and kill people in the UK, but we are not allowed to extradite them to their "OWN" countries because they might get executed.....HELLOOOOO!!! Do you really think the British people cares what happens to them? If Shami Chakrabati does then send her with them to fight their cases.

To remove dangerous people from prison not only is madness but costs the tax payers yet more money in police monitoring. How much money has been spent on Abu Qatada already? How much has this man given to the UK through tax? Why should a man who hates the West, be allowed to live here at the expense of the taxpayer who lives in a system, that allows him a free ride, totally alien to his home country of Jordan or any other Muslim land? Why should he be allowed to live here when he wants to create terror and Islamise it? I of course could mention all the other Islamists that live here under the same situation.

Unless something is done asap regarding this, then the people will become more and more angrier. There will be vigilante groups rising all over the UK who will attack more and more Muslims. There will also be attacks on Hindus and Sikhs who are mistaken for Muslims. The Police will then intervene also being attacked by the angry people. The Army will be brought in but why should they defend the government's wishes who are happy to do nothing while people are released from prison, promoting 'Open Hunting Season' on British people? There is also the other factor that the government is forgetting. These Islamists, such as Qatada, Choudary, Hamza et all, will become targets. People will simply look at these people and state "We don't want them in the UK. Remove them or else we will". It is in the best interest of the government to start listening to their own people. They are not. They are in fact creating a situation of very possibly civil war. The government has continued to lie on the reporting of Islam in the UK. They continue a media blackout, of course with no publication of the Lord Ahmed case or the Islamist march chasing the Police.

The situation will get much worse and Flash Gordon will have to make a decision on the Lisbon Treaty. If he does not put the security of the British people before foreigners, then there will be people in Britain who will and the last thing we all want is Martial Law, but the government through its negligence will have no option.

Wyn

When "Human Rights" came in through the door, common sense seemed to have gone out through the window.The enemies of our society are running circles around us, assisted by their cohorts in the legal profession. If our leaders continue to assist in this madness by simply trying to ignore it, then the people of the UK will eventually decide to do something about it themselves, it is the inevitable conclusion to such obtuse behaviour by our weak leaders. For goodness sake, can our politicians not see the potential consequences of seemingly allowing lawbreakers' rights to transcend those of the majority of decent citizens?

Jenny

Why the hell don't we have Diplock courts for all terrorist trials in Britain?

It's an absolute disgrace.

J O'Neil

What the British need is to listen and to grow up, not only the politicians but the people in general, they just need some kind of culture, they don't respect themselves so who else will respect them? Muslims? I don't think so

Jenny

No, steve, the radicalising influence on jihadists is the same today as it was at the Gates of Vienna and every other point in history: "Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate."

What has that got to do with Guantanamo Bay?

fullenglish

Melanie - I can't believe you are are actually believing the pentagons view that 61 detainees have resumed the fight.
Is this the same pentagon that claimed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Michaelb55

Today's news is that one of the former detainees is now a senior Taliban commander, directing attacks on our troops. Since the legislature is stuffed with lawyers, I don't see any prospect of it curbing the amoral, cynical posturing of the whole crowd from Stafford Smith via Gareth Pierce to Mudassar Arani (&Co).

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Dixon, the left wing in Britain are not good people anyway, out side they are pretending they are liberals but inside it is different story, they think they believe justice and helping the ones who need help for example the ethnic minorities and the British working class, this is not true, this people the lefties are just very nice racist, classist and sexist, I don't know what their grandchildren are going to be in the future, they probably be more superficial and confuser then the generations before or they will be good cool kids who knows?

Joe the patriot

Yes full english, she is, and there were WMD in Iraq, and they were used to exterminate thousands of Kurds and in 2003 every major intelligence agency in the world believed that they were still in Iraq, and without the Iraq war, which has resulted in the first stable multi-party democracy in the middle east, Saddam would probably be using WMD all over again. And without Israeli pre-emption he would have become a nuclear power, while we're on the subject.

Islamists will return immediately and enthusiastically to the fight, and be confirmed in their belief, possibly correctly, that the west is too weak and complacent to sustain any resistance to their violence.

But back to the point, Dixon and his interlocutors can do something positive to fight this cause. They can sign the online petition in support of Geert Wilders, send him a few bob and tell all their friends to do the same.

Unbending, determined, lawful and peaceful resistance by ordinary people is the only way that the Islamist will be beaten. And it will take a very long time.

Shaun Pilkington

Our mistake was to think we could deal with people who sought to play outside of the rules (such as they are) of civillised conduct, of war between nations, by applying the rules to them. IF they'd largely just disappeared, had fatal accidents, heart attacks, poisonings, muggings gone wrong and so on, would anyone care? Would anyone notice or would we just moan about how awful crime is and how much we needed to improve road safety?

Shaun Pilkington

@fullenglish - you say 'resumed' but that ignores the inevitable percentage that were radicalised by their experience in Gitmo and then joined th efight for the first time when they got home!

Michael B

Melanie Phillips is a jewel, among the finest. The final graf sums it up fittingly well: this is in fact a sui generis set of ideological cum militant battlefronts. In theory, both too much and too little can be made of that fact, but it's the latter error which is the more tempting, due to a certain laziness of mind and due to habits of mind that provide a certain misleading comfortable quality.

Dixon

"N"...I know...I feel your pain...but what can I do? I know I haven't done all that we see the likes of Melanie doing with her writings and cetera, but I have at least tried to put a case wherever it arises in my life and society. Like most of us here, I assume.

Only lately, I have ccome to feel "whats the point?"

The real crunch is when everyone agrees with you but we are none of us, collectively as a community listened to by the media, political and other "elites".

steve

Jenny: YOu're right. I'm sure having nothing to do with terrorism and being dragged half way around the world and held without charge for years on end has absolutely no impact on one's world view. Try reading some of the U.S. government's reports on Guantanamo including the way that many of those who ended up in the camp were turned over to the U.S. by those seeking reward money.

By the way, if Melanie was right in saying those under control orders were previously involved in terrorism then these individuals would already be in jail instead of under control orders. The government suspects that they have terrorist leanings but it is unable to make a case stick hence the resort to control orders which are a form of house arrest.

Brian O'Connor

fullenglish wrote:

Melanie - I can't believe you are are actually believing the pentagons view that 61 detainees have resumed the fight.
Is this the same pentagon that claimed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Well, I for one am willing to take the number "61" more or less at face value (I don't think it makes much difference whether the actual number turns out to be 43 or 77).

But I would be interested in whether or not you agree with Mel's point that: ". . . the west is facing an entirely new phenomenon: asymmetric warfare which conforms neither to our conventional definition of war (between states) nor of terrorism (discrete and limited goals)."

I ask because I don't think the values of Islam are the same as those of the west, i.e. that the policies, behavior and goods and services that we believe would make life better are explicitly rejected by our adversaries in favor of their own culture.

I think many of us assume that it is self-evident that all cultures view the world more or less as postmodern westerners do — that there's no such thing as an enemy, only friends who don't understand and whose just grievances must be appeased.

I reject that viewpoint out of hand.

As Ralph Peters pointed out:

Begin with the view that all opponents are aliens from another cultural planet. Build your assessment from a blank slate. What do the alien collectives desire or fear? How do they perceive the galaxy? . . .

Regarding Planet Afghanistan, we still hear the deadly cliché that "all human beings want the same basic things, such as better lives and greater opportunities for their children." How does that apply to Afghan aliens who prefer their crude way of life and its merciless cults?

When girls and women are denied education or even health care and are executed by their own kin for minor infractions against the cult, how does that square with our insistence that all men want greater opportunities for the kids?

What about those Afghan parents who approve of or even encourage suicidal attacks by their sons? This not only confounds our value system, but defies biological reason. . . .

Gary of Brisbane AUSTRALIA.

Well, Winston Smith, you said a mouth full. I wish there were enough citizens like yourself with enough guts to push the point that what the govrnment needs to do, it needs to do, and now!
The government is supposed to represent the people, but instead it is driven by the bleeding heart, do-gooders who are notoriously impractical, and the evil ones who are pushing to Islamise the land that accepted them in their time of need. England doesn't need to change into an awful Islamic state, and I'm certain most Englishmen would agree. But unless something is done, and done soon, the opportunity to retain the great Christian heritage in England will be lost forever.
The trouble is, unlike the Islamists, we wont gather 10,000 people to march on the house of parliament to demonstrate that we mean business. Well, why not?

Lizzy

Whose or what human rights does the human rights lobby stand for? Sorry, that would mean they would have to make a discriminating judgement of right or wrong.

I am sick of this wilfull obtuseness. Doesn't your government realise these policies are insanity? On the simplest level, it even costs more money to monitor terrorists at home rather than deporting them!

Alexandrovich

Gary of Brizzie: I'm not sure why people don't "march on the house of parliament to demonstrate..." I wish I was.

Perhaps there's a similarity in the way people have viewed this blog's ongoing problems lately. Two or three people have complained yet, to my knowledge, nobody from the Spectator has offered an explanation or apology and it certainly has not been fixed.

So, in that inimitable way of ours, we just ignore it.

Lizzy

A decent person's dismay at a world gone awry - Judea Pearl writes in the Wall Street Journal on whether his son Daniel's horrible death at the hands of terrorists made any difference at all:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123362422088941893.html

Grumpy the Real

Brian O'Connor - 100% bud!

Out here in one of the ex-colonies, it seems one is more able to view the galaxy with a little more clarity, than for instance trying to gain a perspective from UK/Europe.
There, the situation appears to be that you are all first worlders, and as such are aligned on most matters (other than the odd pakistani/arab trying to kill you on your underground).

Problem is you (the UK/Europe planet) have been anaethetised into a state of mind, where you sincerely believe that with a degree of good will/earnest debate/plate of cucumber sandwiches etc etc you can get all people 'on board'and on to the 'right minded' track.
This is myopic in the extreme, as some of your points allude to.

Some people/planets WILL never reach consensus with you, no matter how many earnest/right minded little farts like Milliband are launched off into the galaxy to do battle.
People like him and many others in the Brit/Euro planet could'nt find their arses with both hands with the lights switched on, so its not in the least surprising that they are unable to discern threat and danger, from other planets, who'se sole purpose is to destroy you.

This bizarre Mr Bean-like naivete is slowly destroying your culture by trying to mutate it into a new reality called - planet multiculturism, where the rule of law has been replaced by the rule of the appeasement monkeys.

Pete Hoskin

Alexandrovich: What "ongoing problems" with the blog are you referring to? Let me know, and I'll happily take a look.

Incidentally, if you want something fixing more urgently, then you can always fire me an email on phoskin @ spectator.co.uk and I'll do my best to sort it.

Alexandrovich

Pete: see the post of EC on 'Prang!! Boris Skids On Thin Ice' at 08:12. Any thoughts?

Meh

"I have argued throughout..."

Funny. There are necessary and sufficient conditions for something to count as an argument; Mel only ever hits them by accident.

Pete Hoskin

Alexandrovich: ah, the margins problem. I have been contacted about that, and I've replied to all the e-mails about it. Our tech people are currently looking into it. I'll keep you up-to-date.

Jenny

steve: "YOu're right. I'm sure having nothing to do with terrorism and being dragged half way around the world and held without charge for years on end has absolutely no impact on one's world view."

Oh, so why has the jihad been running for centuries before Guantanamo Bay ever existed steve?

These people weren't dragged off a sleepy high street, either. They are battlefield detainees picked up in red hot conflict zones.

It is not that prosecuting authorities cannot make cases stick in ordinary criminal courts. It is simply that if these people are put on trial there, the rules on disclosure means the enemy is provided with heaps of information on what we know about them. It has happened before:

"public trials with the incumbent discovery process led to high-impact consequences for our national security... during the trial of the blind sheik, our prosecutors had to turn over a list of 200 unindicted co-conspirators, and sure enough within a few days that list made it all the way to downtown Khartoum and was put right slap-dab into the hands of Osama Bin Laden.

"In one heartache of a New York minute, the evil Bin Laden knew which of his covert agents here had been outed."

Only the 'human rights' lawyers don't like to remind people of that.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/01/barry_honey_can_we_talk_about.html

Sam Armstrong

Dixon, I always find your comments robust and refreshing. Don't give up on Blighty! Don't go wobbly on me!!

Rex

Since most of this discussion hinges on "playing outside the rules", I would like to point out that Israeli Settlements are outside the rules, even in some cases outside Israel's own rules. The day that Israel ceases it's relentless land grab, is the day I decry Hamas solely. For now it is two liars calling each other liars. Furthermore, our enemies can equally say that it is our unfair new asymmetric warfare (satellite systems, mobile interceptions, drones, cluster bombs, etc etc) which has driven them to new and desperate measures. The fact is war is always adaptive, and the struggle to survive shows each group will do what is necessary. So lets stop pretending this is all irrational and about nothing. Palestinians have genuine concerns, so do Israelis. And frankly, the Islamic terrorists do have a point.. it is about control over their nations and oil. The fundamentalism in present form emanated from Egypt and Saudi... allies of the US, and dictatorships. It is blinding to believe there is no cause behind these attacks, and leads falsely to a perception that enough brutality will bring victory. The Russians in Stalingrad showed the Germans that it doesn't work that way. Wake up people, there is real value in being a neutral and intelligent participant in this battle of cultures, and telling both liars to shut up and start making serious sacrifices for their own future good, and ours.

Vision Aforethought

I was wondering why two fairly important stories from the last 24 hours have not made it here yet, both reported even by the BBC: a) Hamas have been caught taking food and medicine that was donated to the Palestinians in Gaza. (Surprise!) b) A prominent Nazi who we have just learned died in Egypt in 1992 had converted to Islam before he died.

Frank P

Alexandrovich

Glad you raised the margins issue; when I emailed Pete he suggested that his own laptop seems to pick up the comments in good order. I therefore wondered whether it was a matter of incompatible software (rather like, on occasions, your opinions and mine). But as others are experiencing the same problems with the commentary lay-out, it can't be my PC or software. Any techies aboard who might have an answer to this? Strangely the other blogs hosted by the Speccy seem to be fine, and being a suspicious begger, I wondered whether the blogmeister is a Guardian reader and is hell bent on disrupting our Guardian apostate's blog? :-)

Anyway Pete has promised to solve this and assured me that there are other enhancements on way, so let us be patient.

Frank Pulley

Vision Aforethought,the other thing that has been skipped over is the fact that the UN have now admitted that the UN run school in Gaza that was allegedly shelled and rocketed by the IDF (during Israeli retaliation to bombardment by Hamas rockets) received no direct hit at all. The casualties involved were merely in the vicinity of the school and they were mainly Hamas jihadists. The BBC, that spent so many hours reporting this 'atrocity' and 'war crime', spent at least 8 seconds on reporting the UN retraction of the allegations. Par for the course, I might add.

Suffolkbor

Lord Goldsmith , who is wetting himself with excitement over the prospect of welcoming yet more islamist terror suspects into Britain said recently that
" We would have to get some things ironed out such as special housing and benefits packages prior to taking them in".
Special housing and benefits packages ?
What have they done to deserve such V.I.P. treatment ?
These are terror suspects for goodness sake .
While we are at it why don,t we offer free medical care and housing to ex KGB assassins and their families payed for by the British taxpayer .

What about the human rights of the citizens of this country who may have these people dumped in their street ?
One thing is for sure ,I bet that they will not be living anywhere near Lord Goldsmith and his pals .

Alan

Vision Aforethought, February 5th, 2009 12:42pm, the reason for both those things is because, as ever, it is old news to readers here. Melanie Phillips has this uncanny knack of being there before most reporters and I suspect doesn't want to be accused of saying: "I told you so."

What's she to do? She's told the truth as soon as she heard it. All she can do is leave it at that. It's all there on the archive.

Did anyone follow the link on the Rod Liddle essay from one of the posters last week to his radio exchange with Galloway? Liddle raised this very point and the presenter gave Galloway the last words: "What would Hamas want with blankets?"

Now you've got your answer, George, although Melanie could have given it to you months ago. I wonder if you like to listen to reason, ever?

As to Islamism and Nazism, its links and similarities have been well-documented here and elsewhere. A dead Nazi is hardly news when we have hordes of Islamonazis to deal with.

Original Tony

Frank P...the margins look the way they do; It's done deliberately as a form of "right-wing" braille so that Guardian readers can't see what we are saying here!!
On a more serious note, the USA/UK law needs to be changed so that these chappies can be tried on the mainland. If found guilty/innocent then they can be punished/released, with sensitive evidence being barred from any form of dissemination.
As the crime, for those found guilty, is pretty serious, the punishment must be equally as harsh and I personally advocate the death penalty.

Alexandrovich

Frank Pulley: thanks for the info' but, while being patient, I won't hold my breath.

Oh, hang on! We could offer a £50,000 reward for solving this!

Do you think it would get fixed PDQ anytime soon?

Frank P

Alex'vitch - £50,000? I'll settle for higgledy-piggeldy, if you don't mind. Have faith! Pete has promised...

Bailey

Why are the terrorist's "human rights" more important than those of the citizens who abide in that country?

Is it not a human right and DUTY of a state to protect it's citizens?

Do you, the citizen, not have the right to have and expect that security?

Apparently not.

Lawyers, civil and human rights activists would argue, "By protecting them...we are protecting you."

BULL CRAP!

I suggest that the next time a terrorist blows up bus....get those lawyers and activists out there to pick up what's left of the citizens whose human rights they sacrificed.

Bailey

Why are the terrorist's "human rights" more important than those of the citizens who abide in that country?

Is it not a human right and DUTY of a state to protect it's citizens?

Do you, the citizen, not have the right to have and expect that security?

Apparently not.

Lawyers, civil and human rights activist would argue, "By protecting them...we are protecting you."

Oh really?

I suggest that the next time a terrorist blows up bus....get those judges, lawyers and activists out there to pick up what's left of the citizens whose human rights they sacrificed.

Straydingo

Slightly off topic.
I am so frustrated at the lack of MSM press coverage in respect to the recent Iraq election.
These elections symbolise the freedom that the Iraqi people and the collation forces have been fighting for.
From day one the ‘Anti War’ movement, lead by leftwing moonbats, has attacked the west efforts to remove from this earth a man that personified evil. I still find it hard to believe that these so called ‘liberals’ were actually campaigning to see Saddam and his cronies stay in power.
However, as we see the sacrifices are starting to bear the fruit that we here in the West take so for granted – Freedom.
http://tinyurl.com/ameqtf
After years of 24/7 coverage on this conflict we now only get the occasional mention of the successes now being seen within Iraq – go figure

Spike

Bailey: Spot on.

But we've got to get on the streets. Peacefully, of course, no violence, no "exterminate the Muslims" or any "crysalnact" stuff - but forcefully demand our right as free borne English folk to have our culture back. No compromise. Ban the Koran - which should have been banned anyway because it incites hatred - then start a humanitarian assisted passage scheme to their country of "cultural origin" for those who can't live without the Koran.
I can't believe I'm writing this stuff. But it's necessary. Can't sit on our bums while our culture and values are flushed down the pan by the Nazi/Trot lot. Can we?
God Bless.

BTW I'm not a BNP sympathiser.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

steve, everyday there are innocent people who are treated like inferiors, assaulted, harassed, go to prison by mistake even get killed, if those people luckily survive I am sure they don't became radicalized and make trouble, some of them will feel angry or will have some kind of bad feelings, but most likely they will probably move on and life goes on!

logdon

Winston Smith
February 4th, 2009 4:41pm

Couldn't agree more, especially the civil disobedience part. If anyone is interested Gates of Vienna published a two part scenario dealing with this very subject. It posited that the native 'insurrection' would begin in Denmark, spreading through Europe and subsequently arriving here. I receive a daily blog on Islam in Europe and the signs are that deliberately increased Muslim separation and self segregation is well under way. And as expected national retaliation is being advanced. Our politicians ignore Newton's action and reaction theory at their peril. Malmo has recently suffered appalling rioting. (Yet again!) The indigenous Dutch are getting increasingly restive and the Wilders case shows how far their authorities are submitting to Islam in an attempt to quell this. Belgium is veering to the hard right. Italians are incensed that mass Islamic 'pray in's' have been conducted in Milan and Rome intended to sacralise Christian spaces. Bishops have actually had to conduct prayers to reclaim these areas. We have Lord Ahmed threatening the HoL with a mob of ten thousand Muslims if a private viewing of Fitna is aired. The daily list is endless. This is a tiny snapshot which if assembled as a whole indicates that major trouble is brewing fast. Join the dots and it is self evident that if this is not nipped right now it will only escalate. Not one country escapes the stealth jihad and our so called leaders flap and accomodate. Meanwhile all of us poor saps at the coalface fulminate in blogs like this which the gloriously frank and fearless Melanie and her cohorts produce. All I say is thank god for women of this calibre including Ayan Hirsi Ali, Phyllis Chesler and others who actually risk their lives in the fight against submission. Trouble is are we the equivalents of Descarte's tree destined to be unheard as if of no account? Are we merely talking amongst ourselves whilst Europe self immolates? One glimmer is the wildcat strikers defying their union leadership and actually doing something about Brown's despicable hollow promise of British jobs. Maybe the one positive about this recession is that reality bites. What an illumination of where Brown’s interests lie? The wake up call has sounded. I just hope that Cameron will abandon his huskies and look to a bulldog instead.

Frank P

logdon

As usual, a tour de force (even though the weight of it seems to have elongated he paragraph into a very lanky read ... TECHIE!). Perhaps the techies were working on the blog earlier when all the commentary boxes went down. (whispers to self -"We must be patient - Peter has promised."). Noted that the 'Carol Thatcher' Coffee House thread is still down ... hmmmnn! It was also noted that the This Week team side-stepped that issue tonight, even though the nettle was grasped on QT before it. I would have thought that Diane was broadminded enough to have handled it, Andrew?

Straydingo - agree absolutely about the Iraq handover and the increasingly rapid success of the surge over the past few months. In fact BBC ten o'clock news tonight did some mendacious coverage of a market place in Iraq that is now a flourishing centre of trade, having been one of the fiercest locations of the insurgency. The way the piece was scripted left it dripping with anti-American innuendo, suggestiing that the locals had to force 'their peace' upon the Yanks. Utterly freaking bizarre (bazaar, even)! Sending Quislings disguised as war correspondents to areas of conflict and sensitivity at times like this should result in the complete dismantling of the BBC or even Verity's more sanguine solution. It is now a travesty.

Winston Smith

To Gary of Brisbane AUSTRALIA.(February 4th, 2009 9:29pm)

I think there are many like me. They may not speaking up on internet forums but the anger is brewing and no doubt discussion on Islamisation is going on inside pubs. Do you remember the film Braveheart? If you do you'll remember the line when he speaks to Lairds of the Clans and states: "You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think your position exists to provide those people with freedom." Our government has forgotten that it is their to serve the people Britain and not the other way around. They have got arrogant in their positions of power and need to be brought back to reality. I fear for civil war very soon Gary. I really do not think Islamisation will happen. Political opinion in the UK is drastically changing. We have Labour supporters who are moving to the BNP. I never thought I'd see the day. We also have conservatives too, not forgetting our armed forces. The witch hunt against the BNP has turned against the political parties who led it. Jo Brand's attack on BNP supporters has also not gone down well. The middle aged socialist Marxists in the Arts Worlds are losing their support. They have been the main drive behind the destruction of the UK. After all, they are the epitome of the champagne socialists. I think if when the British people do eventually get angry, it won't be ten thousand marching on Parliament but all out strikes in all jobs in the UK, bringing it to its knees, demanding the removal of government and membership of the EU. There may very possibly be a march to Parliament but with millions of people not thousands. This is a scenario I'm going to watch very closely. It will be very interesting.

Winston Smith

logdon,

I've perused the G.o.V website on the odd occasion and I've found some exceptionally fascinating articles there. All that you speak of is very true. The growth of Nationalism all over Europe is really the people speaking out. They have been abused, mistreated and sold out by the very people they elected to protect them and their society. They have been too busy making a name for themselves as World Statesmen and forgetting what they're supposed to be doing. Iraq and Afghanistan have destroyed NuLabour, not forgetting that they've been spinning like a top since '97. The constant stream of lies is sickening.
I wrote in another blog that I do actually believe that the first country to actually make a stand and stop Islamisation will be the UK. I think the tension amongst the British people is about to snap. Don't get me wrong, we're still tolerant but enough's enough and we're fighting not just for our culture but our freedom.
Geert Wilder's court case is really a win-win situation. If he's found guilty then the government and the judicial system will be under attack from the people and if he wins then it opens up people's eyes to the lies their media and government's been feeding the populous on Islamisation.
One thing I've been doing for the last five years IS joining the dots logdon. I think you, I and the many others who post on numerous blogs on the dangers we face are very tuned in to what's going on. We also tend to avoid the mainstream media, as we know it to be false.
I look at what I'm doing and all of us are doing, including of course Melanie, Robert Spencer, Geert Wilders, Ayaan Hirsi, Father Boutros etc etc as using the pyramid effect. We tell one person what we know, they tell another and so on. It all multiplies, until the journalists get wind of it and start to investigate. We are all doing good in spreading the word on the dangers the West faces.
As regards to Flash Gordon and Camoron, well, they're dead ducks in the water. They're career politicians who care little for the people. Cameron's Conservatives are no longer conservative. They are social democrats as Hitchens likes to say. There is nothing conservative about them as they have no intention of preserving British culture or Britain.
Islamisation is not just a problem for the West, but for any Non Muslim country. Russia and China too are fighting against Islamisation.