Hamas war crimes? Obviously. So blame the victim

Dixon

I think weve had enough of Israel for the minute. A new front against ruling idiocracies has opened up on UK soil: the strikes.

Rod Liddle has written a cracking good piece on this. There was I telling myself I was guilty of wishful thinking but he's reassured me that it may well be true. That the real people are finally growing restless.

I dont give a monkeys about Italians oopNorth, but if it is a sufficient cassus belli to make white Britorigine working class people break the law in defiance of government, en-masse, then its great!

I want to know what Melanie thinks about THIS topic.

Robert (New York)

melanie, the issue is that the devastation in Gaza is so astounding, so egregious, so shocking to the conscience, that it will take awhile to catalogue it all. In the court of public opinion (and hopefully the ICC), the Hamas war crimes were to lob ineffective homemade missiles aimlessly into Israel. On the other hand, the IDF used GPS-guided weaponry to decimate women and children. You see, Melanie, the Hamas "war crimes" are a mere fraction of the war crimes of the IDF -- it will take months of interviews and forensics for the human rights groups to collect everything against Israel.

Further, your statement that "because Israel does not target civilians and actually safeguards them -- and thus does not commit a war crime -- it has to be investigated and defamed on the basis that it has done so" is ill-informed. The issue is that Israel DID NOT seek to limit the death and destruction -- much as it did in the Lebanon war, it sought to punish the populace for voting for a group it deems to be "terrorist." Read Walt and Mearshimer, then see if your intellectually misinformed column can stand up to any objective, clear-eyed scrutiny.

HarleyDavidson

When, in God's name, is the thinking world gonna wake up and realize those so called "human rights" groups are the people who directly and indirectly aid and abet terrorists groups world wide? These people answer to no one. They have become a law onto themselves. In my opinion those so called "human rights" groups are using human rights as a terror weapon in a political campaign against Jews and westerners worldwide. You only need one live brain cell left to figure that one out.

Jerry

In the same light: An Israeli leftist wrote a masters thesis explaining the following phenomenon: Israeli soldiers rape very few Palestinian women compared to soldiers in other similar conflicts. Why? Because Israeli soldiers are racists. They think so little of Palestinian women that they do not even think they are worth the effort to waste their precious sexual energy on them. By the way, the thesis was accepted by her supervising committee - Ben Gurion University, I believe.

gary ashton

even orwell would not believe the state of affairs, it's sickening.

Edward in the USA

The "suicide bombings" of busses in Israel and bombing of busses and the Underground in Londonistan on 7/7/05 specificly targeted CIVILIANS. Has the UN or the "ICC" brought charges against hamas, fatah, islamic jihad? I don't think so. The UN has been hijacked by the same cruel mentality that hijacked 4 planes on 9/11.

Shaun Harbord

Paranoia is rampant - on your part. So much so that apparently you are so blinkered in your unwavering support of Israel that you cannot even comprehend what you are quoting.

Trumpeldor

Melanie,

Many Europeans have,deep inside their psyche,some remnants of christian antisemitism.
They have also some guilt about the shoah because they or their forefathers were unable to stop it .
These two conflicting views fought on for decades and antisemitism was kept at bay. The massive media overexposure of the middle east conflict combined with the demographic transformation of Europeans societies tilted the balance toward blatant antisemitism .

Neil Foster

A cartoon in Private Eye summed up the Israeli philosophy very well.

"A hundred eyes for an eye, a hundred teeth for a tooth"

It's not the Palestinians that are the war criminals in this conflict.

Stephen Rothbart

Hamas don't just commit war crimes against Israelis. They commit them against their 'fellow' Palestinian populations by using their women and children as human shields and forcing the civilians to allow them to fight from their homes, which is also a war crime.

The anti-Israeli demonstrators who are not the usual Muslim rent-a-mob crowd but supposedly caring people who abhor injustice, and Annie Lennox is a typical member of that kind of person, as opposed to Galloway and Benn, never seem to find this offensive. Muslims abusing Muslims is OK, but if Jews are involved the world marches.

Yesterday Muslims were blown up outside a Mosque in Pakistan by fellow Muslims.

And the reaction from the Islamic world, from Benn, Galloway, even Lennox was ..... well of course - silence.

There is of course only one conclusion one can make about the nature of these people. It has been said so many times it does not need repeating.

No, not just anti-Semites - but hypocrits.

Meh

"So because Hamas clearly targets civilians, this can be ignored because it is indisputably a war crime; but because Israel does not target civilians and actually safeguards them -- and thus does not commit a war crime -- it has to be investigated and defamed on the basis that it has done so. "

This one is easy everybody. If Mel actually thinks this is a coherent analysis, then she is very stupid. Come on, there's a non sequiters piling up on each other here. If, on the other hand she actually has an intellect above the level of a three year old, then she is deliberately trying to mislead.

Raymond Joseph Douglas

Fair comment Dixon. But you need to appreciate that is only on our Mel's blog, that the sort of thing she reports gets any coverage at all ! So cut her some slack eh ?

phil

Are these accusers referring all the hamas war crimes to the appropriate authorities or is it only the Israelis who are in their line of fire ?

Jim C.

Israel - the Bernie Madoff of nations! Unfair? Well, read this as an antidote to Melanie:
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090119.htm
Thanks in advance for publishing this corretive.

ChakDePhatte

Stepehen - understand the meaning of Anti-Semite before you start using it. do you mean that all Muslims are anti-Arab?

also - Zimbabwe, are christians not killing christians. Kenya, did chritians not kill christians. Rwanda, did fellow religous members not kill each other. Timothy McVeigh, who did he target?

Tom the Redhunter

Ah yes, "Robert (New York)" trots out the "disproportionate" excuse.

So by that logic the most the U.S. should have done after Pearl Harbor is sink an equivalent number of Japanese ships and called it a day. Guess we should have stopped after Midway, eh?

Carl

Hamas lob a few ineffectual rockets, largely landing in open space. Israel responds in a spirit of spite and vengeance, destroying as much Palestinian infrastructure as it can and killing over 1300 people, mainly civilain. There are reports of IDF soldiers shooting children in front of their parents. They shelled a building in which they had ordered Palestinians to enter, they shot at parents attempting to retrieve the bodies of their children. It is clear who the war criminals are and they acknowledge this by the fact that they know that their Generals will be arrested if they enter Europe.

Stephen Rothbart

ChakDePhatte, I think I do understand the meaning of 'anti-Semite', having been on the end of it since school days.

You hit my point perfectly.

People of different religions and nations are killing each other all over the world, especially in the Sudan other African states and now in Sri Lanka. Yet no other nation in the world gets more UN resolutions filed against her than Israel.

Why?

Why is it OK for Christians to kill each other, Muslims to kill each other and no one cares. But if Israel tries to defend herself, there are calls for boycotts, for trade embargos, for UN sanctions, thousands besiege the Israeli Embassy, and Jews are harrassed all over Europe - again.

Now when the Catholic IRA blew up innocent people, did people attack Catholics everywhere? No.

Yet a Jewish nations goes to war, and Jews all over Europe have to take cover. Even in Turkey now, Jews are beginning to feel unsafe.

Is there a common thread here?

You bet.

David

But Hamas is ALREADY recognised as a terrorist organisaton by the US, Japan, the EU and many others (as well as Israel, which executes its leaders with impunity), whereas Israel is being held to the standards of a democratic state (whic is not to deny the hypocrisy being applied in comparison to our own actions in Iraq, which are also widely held to be war crimes).

Original Tony

Robert New York...I don't for one second believe that well-trained, family-loving Israeli soldiers deliberately targetted civilians...no matter what you or anyone says, they do not do that. Mistakes MAY have occurred but until you have been in the front line, with your adrenalin racing, where every bush looks like an enemy soldier and your eyes play tricks on you, only then will you truly understand the amazing restraint and professionalism shown by the Israeli army. I take my hat off to them.
If you analyze who staffs Human Rights organizations and what their political agenda is, even though they are supposed to be apolitical, you will see a very obvious bias against Israel and the West in general.
Finally Mr New Yorker, time will prove that Israel is on the front line of a war that either you or your children will one day be forecd to take part in, especially with St. Obama accelerating its arrival by trying to appease that snake called Islamic fundamentalism.
Enjoy your nice warm bed tonight while Israel and your troops keep you safe. You and your ilk make me nauseous!

Sari

Robert (New York)- I got news for you old boy: Walt and Mearshimer do not stand up to any objective, clear-eyed scrutiny. You say "Hamas war crimes were to lob ineffective homemade missiles aimlessly into Israel." The fact that SOME of them were ineffective is irrelvant; the intention was clearly to target civilians, and kill them, which they did. But even as I write this I know I might as well give up: all you want to do is hate Jews & Israel - and nothing's going to stand in your way!

AngloWelshDragon

Jerry, and others, your comments suit the old adage that 'you can't do right for doing wrong'! The human rights groups and lefties will always see everything Israel does in the worst possible light. The only reason I continue to argue with them is so as not to leave the field open to them and so to try to prevent others being taken in by their bulls**t. They are beyond reason.

Straydingo

Robert (New York)
I am becoming so tired of the way the term “War Crime” is thrown about by moonbats
Wikipedia Definition of War Crime: War crimes are "violations of the laws or customs of war"; including but not limited to "murder, the ill-treatment or deportation of civilian residents of an occupied territory to slave labour camps", "the murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war", the killing of hostages, "the wanton destruction of cities, towns and villages, and any devastation not justified by military necessity".
If the conflict is viewed objectively there is no question that Israel bent over backwards in doing its upmost to avoid civilian causalities.

FACT 1) Israel did not carpet bomb or fire artillery randomly into Gaza the Now if you view the recent Israel actions against Gaza

FACT 2) Israel did not take the civilian population captive and ship them off to slave labour camps or take them hostage.

However, Hamas have demonstrated a long track record of

FACT 1) taking hostages : western media, NGO’s and Israelis.

FACT 2) Intentional targeting civilian populations: by firing missiles into civilian populations and sending suicide bombers into crowded cafes and buses

FACT 3) knowingly put its own civilians into the line of fire so as to use the loss of life as powerful lever in the Propaganda wars

Linda Smith

Robert (New York): You wrote 6 Feb 2.45am "see if your intellectually misinformed column can stand up to any objective, clear eyed scrutiny."
Robert, YOU are intellectually misinformed and evidently lack knowledge of both academic psychology and neuroscience. Human beings are neither objective nor clear-eyed. The commonly held belief that we experience an "objective" external visual world is an illusion. Perception is in the eye of the beholder, mediated by the brain. No human being has an objective God's eye view, Each one of us builds a personal model of reality informed by our own prejudices and life experiences etc. You, Walt and Mearshimer, included.

Jenny

No Robert (New York), the issue is that Hamas deliberately targets civilians, whereas the IDF does not.

The issue is that if Hamas puts down its arms there is peace, whereas is Israel does, it is gone.

Adam B.

Shaun Harbord, paranoia? Are you seriously trying to say that these "human rights" groups are vocal in their condemnations of Hamas? I hardly ever hear it, yet I hear a deluge of propaganda against Israel by these groups, and so do you if you were honest.

Adam B.

ChakdePhatte, not that old chestnut. Clearly, by anti-Semitism, Stephen means anti-Jewish. And as for your other examples, the killing is not nearly on the same scale as Darfur (Muslim killing Muslim). In fact, Darfur has seen more deaths than Iraq, Afghanistan and the Israel-Arab conflict combined. Yet no protests from the Islamic world, or lefties marching in the streets as useful idiots. The UN says nothing, and no reports on TV. That's called hypocrisy.

Clare

Says Neil Foster: 'A cartoon in Private Eye summed up the Israeli philosophy very well."A hundred eyes for an eye, a hundred teeth for a tooth"It's not the Palestinians that are the war criminals in this conflict.'

Oh, really? So why does Private Eye have to resort to putting words in Israel's mouth, then?

Is it because it's so cowardly, it can't deal with the philosophy coming out of Hamas' mouth? Let's just remind ourselves of that Hamas philosophy: "O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

Presumably Private Eye finds that hilarious. Or does it just pick on Israel because it knows Jews won't be round to bomb its offices in retaliation?

stanley Jerusalem

Sorry Folks! The only safe place left in the world for Jews is here in Israel.
London, Paris,Amsterdam and Stockholm, once centres of decency and normality are off-limits now.
2000 years of mothers telling kids about Christ-killers has finally surfaced. It begins to look like Germany 1933 all over again and I'm not hanging around to watch.

Dixon

ChakDe Phatte, thats another apologists spurious mis-direction.

The commonplace meaning of a word ( as opposed to its technical meaning ) is defined purely by its usage. Everyone knows what the phrase means, and that is therefore what it means.

Otherwise, we would have to pull apart virtually all everyday communication due to the inaccurate usages. Look at "schizophrenia". Its day to day usage has absolutely no bearing upon its clinical meaning. The same applies to "paranoia/paranoid" as used by an earlier commentor on this thread, above. Words like Utopia, massive, etc as used in everyday language are literally misused.

We know what people mean when they say "anti semitic". That, therefore, is its meaning.

Marge P.

Robert in New York: So you think that Hamas's war crimes are to 'lob ineffective home made missiles aimlessly into Israel'? Well, tell that to someone in Sderot, Ashdod, Ashkelon and Beer Sheva. More than 8,000 rockets have been fired into Israel from Gaza in eight years. Presumably, for you, who no doubt loves the idea of 'proportionality', if these 'aimless' rockets - targeting civilians as they do -had killed countless Israelis, then Israel's response would have been acceptable? The fact that Israel waited eight years to retaliate is insufficient for you. You just want plenty more Jewish deaths.

Maybe you should go and spend time in, for example, Sderot where people haven't been able to take showers, go to the toilet, sleep, go to school - you name it - for over eight years without having to be prepared for the 'Red Alert' that allows you fifteen seconds to sprint for a shelter.

What happens to the elderly, the disabled, the mothers with four children; the dogs, cats, farm animals?

None of this is important for you, is it? You're only interested in what you perceive to be Israel's disproportionate response. You only want to believe what the biased and bigoted news outlets show you - based around a propaganda machine that is honed to show as much carnage as possible - irrespective of whether or not it is a true reflection of what actually happens on the ground.

The UN (who you probably believe in wholeheartedly to tell the truth), finally admits to making a 'clerical' error about the school that Israel 'ostensibly' shelled. Actually, no, it didn't happen like that. Gazans admit openly that Hamas is using them as human shields. Fatah states that hundreds of their members have been executed by Hamas. But none of that will interest you. Not part of your agenda.

Maybe you should start to read other outlets and not simply The New York Times and Walt and Mearsheimer for your information. It's sadly lacking.

Dixon

Going back to my first comment, I stand by it. Another post on Israel, another repetition of the same people making the same responses.

We already know where we stand and noone is changing their mind. So whats the point?

What about the strikes?
What about Carol Thatcher?

Henry Sidgwick

Every code of ethics worthy of the name has a rule such as, "Do unto others as you would be done by" or "the rules you apply to others, apply also to yourself". Most of them also say something to the effect that human life is precious. Melanie Phillips is right: the crimes of Hamas are to be condemned. The rest of her article however calls to mind another saying: "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

Linda Smith

Adam B. 6 Feb 2.05pm): Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the Darfur killings are Arab Muslims killing Black Christians.

Pat Viliors

Speaking of Hamas war crimes, how about this:

Note the following quotes are from ARAB and UN sources; not Israeli/Zionists'.

Hamas has been stealing medicine and food sent by international donors, distributing these supplies among its members and selling the rest for profit. This accusation, appearing in numerous eyewitness reports in Palestinian Authority newspapers since the end of the Gaza War, has now been corroborated by UNRWA.

Al-Ayyam and Al-Hayat Al-Jadida have been reporting that armed Hamas men have comandeered trucks delivering food to UNRWA and have shot at the truck drivers.

Hamas has also refused to allow charities to distribute any of the supplies. An article in Al-Hayat Al-Jadida describes how Hamas militias took control of two charity organizations in Jabaliya and in Beit Lahiya in the northern Gaza Strip, and made them sign an agreement not to distribute any aid or "carry out social or humanitarian actions."

The following are multiple reports of Hamas's continuing theft of donor aid.
"UNWRA reported yesterday that Hamas police confiscated supplies of humanitarian aid from one of the distribution points under its control in Gaza. Two days ago, they report, more than 3,500 blankets and 406 food parcels were confiscated by Hamas police officials."
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Feb. 5, 2009]

"Yesterday the Hamas militias took control of two charity organizations in Jabaliya and in Beit Lahiya in the northern Gaza Strip. Sources said that the Hamas militias took control over the Association for the Disabled in Jabaliya, and the "Our Home" association in Beit Lahiya. They forced the people in charge of the two [charity] organizations to sign that they obligate themselves not to distribute any aid or carry out social or humanitarian actions."
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Jan. 28, 2009]

"[Hamas] took control by armed force of the aid trucks and of the goods that were sent to the private sector. The supplies were distributed between the [Hamas] party members and afterwards the remainder was put up for sale at exorbitant prices... People's stories range from stories of murder of innocent people in cold blood to the unloading of bags of flour to the houses of Hamas activists while their neighbors were left starving. When they asked [for some of the flour] they were offered to buy at prices which they could not afford to pay."
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Jan. 22, 2009]

"Hamas kidnaps Fatah members while they distribute aid ... Armed Hamas members kidnapped Fatah movement members yesterday while they were distributing aid to citizens... they also attacked a senior policeman wildly... and refused to transfer him to hospital for treatment after the attack."
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Jan. 28, 2009]

Headline: "Minister for Social Affairs: The Ministry concentrates on rescue and rehabilitation activities while Hamas confiscates the aid and sells it

"[Minister for Social Affairs] Al-Habbash clarified that the [Palestinian] Authority ... used to send [aid] through the UN institutions and the World Food Programs or directly. He emphasized that Hamas has taken control over this aid and has prevented its reaching the citizens... 'When the [Israeli] aggression ended, the Hamas members came out and began to carry out robberies of the aid convoys and take the aid. On the 19th and 20th of this month they took over 63 trucks loaded with food, which were expected to arrive at the [UNRWA] relief agencies...

"They [Hamas] take control over everything that falls into their hands, they present it at the market and sell it ...

"He added that Hamas disseminated among the grocers and the food distributors, [orders] preventing them from selling [large] quantities of food, unless it is with permission of Hamas, even if is a person wants to buy quantities [of food] in order to distribute it as charity among people. He directed attention to the fact that the aid that reaches Hamas, it distributes among its [own] people and the rest it sells."
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Jan. 29, 2009]

Headline: "Al-Habbash: Aid entering Gaza is no longer safe after [Hamas] has taken 63 trucks of food and medicine"

"[Palestinian] Minister for Social Affairs, Mahmoud Al-Habbash, said: 'During the last three days, armed [activists] who belong to the Hamas movement have taken control of 63 trucks delivering aid consisting of food and medicine, which were on their way to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), after shooting at the drivers...

'Unfortunately the way the aid enters into the Gaza Strip has not been safe during the last three days ... Hamas has executed 19 civilians, and has shot another 63 civilians in the legs ...'

"Regarding Hamas's taking the aid he said: 'The movement sells part of the aid on the open market and to private pharmacies, and the rest it distributes among its members, that is the message of hundreds of complaints from Gaza citizens received every day at the Ministry for Social Affairs' ... and he said that he has evidence from drivers who were shot before the contents of their trucks were requisitioned by force..."
[Al-Ayyam, Jan. 22, 2009]

Where are Galloway and his cronies and why aren’t they demonstrating about this in Trafalgar Square?

Ivor, Chelmsford

Stanley, you never said a truer word.

On the other hand, as a Jew living in a country I love, I think "why should I be forced out by lefty thugs and Islamofascists"?

ChakDePhatte

Adam B. - i'm not old actually; chestnut possibly, but i wont resort to calling you names.
Darfur - yes, lots of people killed. i never said that muslims gont kill muslims, what i say is that its not just muslims.
so why then is there a focus on muslims and no others?

ChakDePhatte

Adam B.
February 6th, 2009 2:05pm
Clearly, by anti-Semitism, Stephen means anti-Jewish

well then dont use the wrong term. a term hijacked (amongst other things) by jewish propaganda. i dont use word jewish instead of zionist do i?

Gregg in Missouri USA

Robert in NY ... inflicting massive damage on an enemy and accidentally killing civilians in the process is not a war crime. You will not find this described as a crime anywhere in the (once) commonly accepted rules of warfare.

War crimes involve things like DELIBERATELY targeting schools, hospitals, or ambulances, or lining up captured soldiers or civilians and machine-gunning them. Once again, Robert, slowly so you can understand ... inflicting massive damage on an enemy is not, in intself, a war crime, even if civilians are accidentally killed in the process.

By the way, the laws of war allow for executing combatants who don't wear uniforms, because they are not following the rules and are putting actual civilians in greater danger.

John from Toronto

Shaun Harbord, What the heck are you saying?

Edward in the USA

Anti-War?

I have yet to see an "anti-war" rally slam al-qada, slam osama bin laden, slam the late tyrant saddam hussein.

If these "anti-war" drones were around in WW2, they would be slamming the allies and crying over dead nazi civilians.

Edward in the USA

Shaun Harbord has mastered "the cut and paste". He fills in the blank Noun with "Israel". It's like playing "MadLibs" (like Adlibs - get a grip neocommies)

Nature

I submitted this complaint on 06.02.09 to the BBC:

I was listening this morning to the news show (06.02.09) on BBC radio 4 at about 8:40am. An interview was held with Marc Regev, the Israeli spokesman and Sarah Montague. As a listener I was horrified to hear the hate and the revolt in Sarah Montague's voice toward mark Regev. She blatantly rejected his claim that Hamas was responsible to the collapse of the ceasefire, by saying “this is simply not true” this is a blunt and unprofessional statement of a journalist who do not accept the turns of events in Israel and tries to vilify the Israelis for the their reaction to Hamas terror attacks. I do not recall any journalists interviewing Hamas terrorists on BBC rejecting any of Hamas claims whether they hateful or fabricated, however, Sarah Montague did not have a problem claiming that Marc Regev was simply lying. Furthermore, this journalist had a silence too long in a sentence when she was trying to find her words to describe Hamas militants, this was almost to imply that she was trying avoiding calling Hamas as freedom fighters. She had to think hard until she was able to pronounce “Hamas militants”. I have grave concern of this horrible journalistic misconduct to show a biased and a blatant hate toward an interviewee, and I call for her resignation. This is too serious for just an apology.

Stephen Rothbart

ChakDePhatte, what are you going on about? Anti-Semitism is defined as hatred of Jews or Judaism. Look it up. Now. On the internet. I know some Arabs like to call themsleves Semites sometimes, but the word anti-Semite is in use today by 99.9% of the world's population as being what YOU call anti-Jewish.

And I am sorry, I know many people who follow Islam even friends, and I have no problem with them or their beliefs at all, but the people that brought our airports to a standstill by bombing them and highjacking planes, who attack women and children with suicide missions, who fire guns and store munitions in their places of worship, who hide behind their women and children as a deliberate battle tactic, who dress their kids as suicide bombers, who attack even each other in their homes and in their places of worship, and call in death warrants on people who they feel insulted by are not Christians, not Hindus, not Buddhists and not Jews. They are Muslims. They may not represent Islam, but they are all Muslims and they believe they do.

Adam B.

Moderator, ChakdePhatte speaks of "Jewish propaganda". Is this acceptable?

Adam B.

Linda Smith, there are two conflicts in Sudan - in Darfur, the Arab government has been killing black African Muslims, (with support from the Arab League) whilst in the south of the country, the Arab government has been waging war on black Christians. None of the main media outlets report either. Hope that clears it up.

Dixon

Henry Sidgwick
February 6th, 2009 3:01pm
Every code of ethics worthy of the name has a rule such as, "Do unto others as you would be done by" or "the rules you apply to others, apply also to yourself". Most of them also say something to the effect that human life is precious. Melanie Phillips is right: the crimes of Hamas are to be condemned. The rest of her article however calls to mind another saying: "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

You must be one of those people who think the death penalty is worse than murders committed by those sentenced to it.

BTW, regulars here know my personal stance on "ethics". There is no such thing. We decide for ourselves what we want to do.

This means I dont give a damn what Israel does in Gaza. Others dont give a damn what Hamas does to Israel. But so long as the debate is so idiotically skewed against Israel, that distortion represents a point of issue that irritates me. If it was the other way around and the media were pro Israel, I dare say I would be irritated by that.

At the end of the day, I dont give a damn about anyone except myself but I get really angry when I see stupidity in the argument of such people as those who support "the Palestinians", because, at bottom, they are simply trying to kid themselves that they are not, as are all Humanity, essentially the same as I am.

This is the way we are made. To be a hero is not to be Human. Look at the moral of the marvellous Marvel X-Men...what are they, freaks.

Meh

Original Tony- "If you analyze who staffs Human Rights organizations and what their political agenda is, even though they are supposed to be apolitical, you will see a very obvious bias against Israel and the West in general."

Obviously you've done this, so would you mind sharing your working with the class?

Linda Smith: "Robert, YOU are intellectually misinformed and evidently lack knowledge of both academic psychology and neuroscience. Human beings are neither objective nor clear-eyed"

Ah yes, I was just talking to a a psychologist and neuroscientist the other day and they're jacking it all in. Turns out their disciplines have nothing left to discuss; they all agree about everything. Especially non sequiters.

Carl

AdamB - no Propaganda is not acceptable, but boy you produce it in spades.

ChakDePhatte

Adam B.
February 6th, 2009 6:02pm
Moderator, ChakdePhatte speaks of "Jewish propaganda". Is this acceptable?

should it not - do you deny it? are you implying that this is an unjust and unfair comment. that this blog censors any negative comments about Jews and Israel?

ChakDePhatte

Stephen Rothbart
February 6th, 2009 5:50pm - I agree, Anti-Semite is NOW known as anti-jewish; as explained earlier, a term which has been hijacked.
as for your comments on Muslims doing horrible things, I completely agree. They do not represent Islam, what they do is un-Islamic and forbidden in Islam. but we must agree that it is not only Muslims that do terrible deeds, and unfortunately say that they do it in the name of their religion.
I am happy to admit that even though I have sympathy for the Palestinians, I also do for the moderate civillian on the other side of the wall too. a life is a life, be it Muslim, Jewish Christian, it makes no difference what religion or race you are. I do not always agree with all that Palestinians say or do. I also have Jewish friends; friends that i have no grievance with and in fact we share many of the same views. a view that two wrongs do not make a right. we continually argue about who is right or wrong here. there is no denying that both sides are right and both sides are wrong. if this were a primary school i'd put both in a corner for 2 hours until they calmed down and then make them apologise to each other and get on with it.

ChakDePhatte

Stephen - have you ever been to India, seen how the Dalits/Untouchables are treated by the rest of the Hindu population. they not get killed many times for no reason at all - not even in the name of religion, but because they were born into a lower caste.

you cant generalise about Muslims being the only people that cause unrest.

Henry Sidgwick

Dear All. I, Henry Sidgwick, wrote a pompous little piece about applying the same standards to yourself as you do to others. Please read Dixon's retort. It is an absolute joy.

Adam B.

ChakdePhatee. you are a racist bigot. "Jewish propaganda" - how despicable you are.

Adam B.

Pete Hoskin, will you let ChatdePhatte's comment stand?

Adam B.

Carl, the Hamas supporter who only snipes from the sidelines and never makes a comment of any substance, thinks the phrase "Jewish propaganda" is entirely acceptable. Says it all.

roger

A cartoon in Private Eye summed up the Israeli philosophy very well.
"A hundred eyes for an eye, a hundred teeth for a tooth"
It's not the Palestinians that are the war criminals in this conflict.

sounds like good odds to me carry on. the object of war is to defeat your enemy not take him to lunch. "proportional response" is the dumbest phrase ever. make no mistake we are all at war with islam even the so called moderates as they give succour and cover to the jihadis. deny a snake its shelter and soon you will have none is and old saying of the san people of africa and very true in todays world. hearts and minds does not work. you mustdrive thecivilian population to hate its govrnment. this is what the israelis will eventually do again.
apologies for the spelling and grammer on to many pimms im afraid.

L

Meh (6 Feb 2009, 7:00pm) You sound like a silly student who makes jokes when he has no sensible argument to make.
Nil points.

Barbara

ChakDePhatte,

You are entirely mistaken about both "Jewish propaganda," which is an insulting and racist term, not that I am surprised, and about the term anti-Semitism.

The term "Anti-Semitism" was coined (that means, made up) in nineteenth century Germany by a creep named Wilhelm Marr. Wilhelm Marr hated Jews with all his heart (sound familiar), and apparently did not think that the German word "Judenhass" was strong enough. HE MADE UP THE WORD TO SPECIFICALLY MEAN HATRED OF JEWS. The Arabs didn't come into it any more than the Hittites.

Anti-Semite always and ONLY means hatred of Jews. If you don't believe me, look it up, you will find that I am correct.

Don't you just hate it when the Jew is right and knows more than you?

Straydingo

Here is a link for all the those that support the terror group Hamas:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4539655/UN-suspends-aid-to-Gaza-after-accusing-Hamas-of-theft.html

Where is your out pour of moral outrage against Hamas or the UN for stopping the aid getting in?

Pete Hoskin

Adam B: I'm not taking sides here, but - in the interests of fairness, and by the guidelines I have - ChakDePhatte's comment has to remain. There are, for example, numerous comments referring to "Islamic propganda" across Melanie's blog.

In this case, I can only offer you - as always - the space to disagree with what ChakDePhatte has said. Apologies.

phil

Robert (New York) Are you open minded enough to look on the other side of the street .Can you say what you would have done in Israel,s place ,when these "ineffective missiles " were devastating the lives of so many innocent Israeli,s -Everyone of us is shocked to see the devastation that was wrought,but those with open minds know that Israel dropped millions of leaflets saying where they were going to attack and asking the Gazan,s to stay away from those areas -hamas kept those people in harms way ,planted their own booby traps.killed their own people ,threw them off roofs .do you really think Israel were dealing with conventional enemies ? I would like to here the opinion of an open minded person on how he would have dealt with this situation ,and whilst doing that tell me what he thinks of the news we received yesterday from the UN that food and supplies had been stolen by hamas and had therefore been stopped by the said UN

Carl

Adam B - get over yourself. Israel has carried out a series of atrocities against Palestinians and regularly uses propaganda as both a weapon and an excuse.

phil

ChakDePhatte,whatever that might mean .you need to learn to write coherently before you can have a response -what is it you are trying to say -Adam B seems to get it but in this case he has the advantage on me -I think you are just a young fool but perhaps you are worse than that ,-let us know -nevertheless I do think your future is in the past-sad

phil

Henry Sidgwick if you really meant your reply to dixon its wonderful .first time on any thread I heard anyone admitting they were wrong:)

phil

carls back again .but will he be at hyde park corner tomorrow in the facemask marked truthful carl? whats your weight carl ??

dixon,s bought a a bow tie and I will be in blue and white shorts -will you be in red and black or green ? carl and I are boxing for charity but I dont think he is coming :)-well anyhow this post at least may amuse someone unlike anything you ever post carl and ferocious phil would be a more honest ring name than truthful carl -ADAM B will you collect the ticket money :)it can go to carls favourite charity "the anti Israel defamation league"

Linda Smith

Hamas is Iran's proxy. Hamas' Charter explains its religious reasons for its intention to exterminate all Jews in Israel, and incites world wide genocide of Jews, blaming them for all evils in the world including the French Revolution. You might like to dismiss Hamas' Charter as "propaganda" (as does Derek Blades). But in view of the fact that Nazi Germany put its genocidal "propaganda" into action, the Jewish State of Israel will defend itself against its self-proclaimed Palestinian enemies by whatever methods it sees fit.

You and many other commenters treat this blog as a game. I don't.

Henry Sidgwick

Dear Phil,
Pomposity should always be pricked, and Dixon definitely has what it takes to prick it. But do read his retort.
Henry

Linda Smith

Dear Moderator
The following comment was not printed so I am submitting it again.
In response to Carl (7 Feb 11:07am) - Hamas is Iran's proxy. Hamas' Charter explains its religious reasons for its intention to exterminate all Jews in Israel, and incites world wide genocide of Jews, blaming them for all evils in the world including the French Revolution. You might like to dismiss Hamas' Charter as "propaganda" (as does Derek Blades). But in view of the fact that Nazi Germany put its genocidal "propaganda" into action, the Jewish State of Israel will defend itself against its self-proclaimed Palestinian enemies by whatever methods it sees fit.

You and many other commenters treat this blog as a game. I don't.

ChakDePhatte

Phil, Adam B.
I can only apologise for bringing what some may call (obviously not you) a balanced argument to the table. it seems like playground bullying tactics here. When fighting a losing battle start name calling and personal abuse.

p.s. Moderator - firstly thank you for letting my previous post stand.
secondly I've never hurled personal abuse at anyone on here - am I allowed, is that within the rules?

ChakDePhatte

Barbara - do you believe that there is Palestinian Propaganda? I do; would that be a racist comment? not entirely sure how Jewish Propaganda is a racist term?
Propaganda by definition is - "information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc." so how is it racist?
you define anti-semitism for me, I will research further and if you are correct then that's great.
you sound as if i will be annoyed at being corrected by a Jew; why should I? we're all (well, nearly all) grown ups here; reading this bog with the intention to discuss ideas and observations from people of various backgrounds. are we not?

Adam B.

Carl, who refuses still to condemn the Hamas charter which calls for the extermination of the Jews, I'll take notes about propaganda from you on the day hell freezes over.

Adam B.

Pete Hoskin, thanks for your clarification.

Adam B.

Barbara, thank you. Unfortunately anti-Semites like chatdephat or whatever his/her/its name is repeatedly use this argument, and when the facts as you have elucidated are put to them, they are speechless. Unfortunately, the origin of the term needs to be pointed out time and again, because there are a lot of ignorant haters out there who will always spout the line that anti-Semitism doesn't mean Jews.

wonderer

ChakDePhatte, just look at Wikipedia or Encyclopedia Britannica and you will see that Barbara's interpretation of "anti-Semitism" is right, and actually your point would embarrass a fourth form debating society. And did you know that Haj Amin al Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem during the British Mandate in Palestine, early promoter of Palestinian Arab terrorism, mentor of the youthful Yasser Arafat, hailed by the latter as an Arab hero, was a guest of the Nazi regime in Berlin in World War 2? This would scarcely have been likely if anti-Semitism extended to hatred of Arabs. Collaborating with the Nazis, he recruited 15000 Bosnian Muslims for the Waffen SS.

And even if your point were right, it would not support any significant proposition, because it remains a fact that genocidal hatred of Jews, however you care to label it, arguably the most perverse and depraved state of mind ever to have afflicted the human race, is being propagated throughout much of the Arab and Islamic world.

wonderer

ChakDePhatte, perhaps I didn't spell it out properly. The term anti-Semitism was invented by Wilhlem Marr (as Barbara said) to denote hatred of Jews and is used exactly as he, the inventor, intended, so how could it have been hijacked?

ChakDePhatte

Adam B. - how do you gather than I am an anti-semite? I've never once said that I am in favour of the destruction if Israel or the death of Jews and have also never fully agreed with Hamas' charter? earlier I explained that I believe that both sides are right and both are wrong. so because I don't believe that one side is completely correct and the other completely wrong I am automatically an anti-semite? do you believe that one side is correct and does no wrong? please explain.
wonderer - stop getting your knickers in a twist. I got it the first time when Barbara explained it.

phil

ChakDePhatte I wrote my post after reading your earlier remarks and those you have written subsequently show you in a different light -so if you mean well -sorry .-----------but you need to use your words carefully in a charged emotional situation like this -ok -peace ?

phil

Now with Pete,s permission a report on the boxing context scheduled for today at hyde park corner
Carl showed up resplendent in his black and red shorts and bright green jacket together with a second world war helmet in place of his headgear and speedos ,which he later used to good effect ,sadly when seeing me in the opposite corner with an IDF veteran as my second he employed his speedos and was last seen in the vicinity of craven cottage.. The crowd nevertheless enjoyed other entertainment in the form of undercard fights ,which I will give you the results of below
1 frank p and alexandrovitch had a robust one legged backside kicking contest which resulted in a draw and was sponsored by the a--se admiration society of brighton .
2 Michelle Obama had a walkover as verity did not show up
3 Barack v An American ,contest still proceeding
4 Dixon v Ronnie an honourable draw -both kissed and made up having decided they should not have fought in the first place .being from the same gym .
5 Adam B had a variety of opponents that did not show up ,including Derek Blades and bob latchford (not the great Everton centre forward )just his namesake?
6 fisk could not be matched as nobody believed a word he said ,and galloway looked too ridiculous in his red leotard and holding a babies milk bottle ,one kid came out of the crowd to challenge him but choked laughing .

Referee -Straydingo brought over specially from Aussie ,and the popular poster was cheered for ten minutes by the huge crowd and Sin offered his services as the cut man ,absolutely free and even offered to stitch anyone up who came forward -transport again free, courtesy of patricias broomsticks inc .

One serious note that I will indulge myself with is a tribute to the late great commentator Reg Gutteridge RIP who passed away recently -you were the best Reg and you would loved to have been there-I will miss you .

For all of those without a sense of humour in these difficult times -apologies ,but you all have fast scrolling mouse's

ChakDePhatte

phil
February 8th, 2009 11:45am

thanks for clarifying. I'm all for peace between all. As with any argument, however small, the starting point to get the problem resolved is to admit that you have done some wrong. Until both sides admit that, which sadly they are not, and I can not see in the foreseeable future, there's really no going forward.
I might cause some uproar here, but they really are both just as bad as each other. Which is sad really as that land is holy for all major religions. I'd love to be able to go there myself without the fear of imminent war.

p.s. How bad is England at cricket now. Come on, we invented the damn game. It must take some real effort to be that bad.

phil

ChakDePhatte-you can go there and will be treated with respect and care ,something that I cannot do in most of the Middle East -One thing you say is definitely correct both sides need to admit that all is not right. I actually try to spread my thoughts with both my Jewish and Muslim friends ,many do agree but that feeling does not gell with those that want to fight ,and sad to say you will probably know where most of the intransigence comes from .The hate is further fuelled by many young people who think that supporting the "underdog" is a way forward -It is not.it just compounds the problem because there is no need for the position of underdog

-Common sense compassion and a will for peace would solve all our problems . Both Jewish and Muslim kids need to have a future to look forward to and I see it as our responsibility to give a climate where that might happen . Can I suggest you spread the word amongst the Muslim friends that you have ,that it us who must help one another ,and let me assure you that I am typical Jewish person who seeks conciliation and peace with them .I know some here get excited because this is a very emotional time and we need messengers who are calm -I hope you are one .

Now I hope you enjoyed my boxing report especially of the one that fell through with the colourful carl -a man from the opposite end of our spectrum ,one who knows only hate and never will be that messenger of peace .

stanley Jerusalem

Thank you Phil for introducing a light note into this cold miserable and hate-filled world.
Remember
"HE WHO LAUGHS, LASTS"
Sorry. I have no idea who said it. It was on a cheap diary I got years ago and I still carry the battered cutting in my wallet.It is still a comfort, Neddy.

Original Tony

Meh 7pm (who responded to my earlier post)

The results of my 'working' so that I can share it 'with the class'.

Firstly, most Human rights organizations are funded by the UN, an organization that is made up of dictators and failed states. Will they help Israel or western interests??
Secondly, type in 'Israel' in Amnesty International's website and you will come up with 'Occupied territories' only.
Yes, that's right, NO Amnesty International help for Israel proper, despite Hamas human rights abuses against Israeli civilians! Now wouldn't you say there is a political agenda there??? A bias against Israel and the West?? I think I have proven my point.

phil

Robert (New York) just another runner with a big mouth and a little heart -its not unexpected that those like you sound off but are never back to answer your critics even when they are reasonable -shame on you -thankfully there are more New Yorkers with guts and sense than you

phil

stanley thanks -looks like carl has retired ,but he might tempt joe calzaghe back ,another ten million and a bag of latkes could do it

Myrna Albert

Why are the Jews always explaining and justifying their existence. No other group in history has done this. Are we guilty? And what for? Our brains? Our ethics? Our religion? Our humanity? Possibly our very superiority plays havoc with our psyche. I say let us live out who we are with strength and dignty and never never explain. Personally I am sick of it. It has permeatted my life time. I do not want my son to expain his existence, but to live to the fullest extent of all his gifts with his head held high. Enough is enough and it starts with us as Jews.

Raoul

Some people find Melanie Philips pro-Israeli. May I suggest this is because so many have become accustomed to distorted and *politically correct* reports and attitudes from so many of the world's media, to the extent that they find the truth unacceptable, even bizarre.

Original Tony

Myrna Albert, the Jews have had it rough for centuries for three reasons.
A)Ishmael (the father of the semitic arabs) was forced into exile by Abraham and for this reason the Arabs and latterly Muslims have detested your race to this day.
B)Jewish Rabbis said 'let it be on our heads' when Jesus was crucified.
The retribution for this act comes from God and man; from God because the Jew called Jesus is actually your saviour, whom you crucified and from mankind because their saviour (in totallity) was crucified.
This does not mean that God has broken His covenant with you but there will be hell on earth for the Jewish race until they accept their saviour, at which time redemption will come. So...
C) It is a spiritual battle of good versus evil and the Jews are the lynchpin of the whole scenario...talented and gifted by God but despised by man (at their peril of course!!)

Linda Smith

Original Tony: I couldn't work out if you believed what you wrote, or were just describing what you see as rational explanations for antisemitism.

A) You give a Muslim reason for antisemitism based on religious belief and myth. Do you take genesis etc. as fact?
B) You give a Christian reason for antisemitism based on religious belief and myth. Christian religion did not begin until 40 years after Jesus died. Do you believe Jesus walked on water and rose from the dead?
C) If you mean non-Jews suffer from ENVY, why don't you say so in plain English instead of a load of hogwash.

"The Jews have had it rough for centuries" because everybody needs a scapegoat to blame for the things they cannot accept about themselves. And for that reason all religions build in a scapegoat. The Jews being clever enough to be able to think abstractly use a symbolic scapegoat; the Christians and Muslims used the Jews. Non-believers also need scapegoats - Jews are the cultural norm in European culture. Indians use the caste system and the Untouchables are their Jews.

Original Tony

Linda Smith 10:43 pm...I challenge you to read the Bible from cover to cover, then compare it with reliable secular archeological writings of that era and you will conclude that none of it is a myth. It will always be a myth to people until their spiritual eyes have been opened, by accepting Christ as saviour. Then, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the truth of scriptures are unlocked in your mind. It is so exciting, like discovering a code to a lost treasure. You will NEVER understand that book through intellect or humanism.
But I don't get offended by what you say is a myth, because I once thought like you, until I had that life-changing experience.
Yes, the untouchables may be the Indians' "Jews" but has that clash brought the entire world against them for millenia after millenia??
Don't you think there is something bigger in this picture Linda? You seem intelligent enough to decide.

Linda Smith

Original Tony:
Yes, I am intelligent enough to decide. I suggest you read Richard Dawkins book "The God Delusion".