Anti-Jew frenzy at the FCO

stanley Jerusalem

The trick is to arrest the man to show that you take these things seriously and then procrastinate until all is forgetten. That way Public Opinion is satisfied and the black that Laxton has put up [oops!] disappears into the sunset and he can confine his future antisemitic ravings to green rooms [oops x 2]and FCO committee meetings[who will understand].

Austin Barry

This quite unbelievable. We all knew of the FO's Arabist bent, and imagined impossibly languid public schoolboys, besotted with T.E. Lawrence and Arab boys, and hating everything Jewish (alibied as anti-Zionism). But this? Outrageous. Betcha it won't get as much media coverage as the Golliwog debacle.

David

This Jew hatred goes right to the top. That David Milliband..oh wait, he's Jewish.

Hmmm.

Shaun Harbord

"And why is Laxton still at his Foreign Office desk?" Well, there is the ancient principle that a man is innocent until proven guilty but you seem to have forgotten that. Thankfully, the estimable Joshua has not: "If the alleged facts are true, Mr Laxton cannot continue to work as a diplomat."

So that there be no ambiguity as to my point, and you appear to be not the calmest of people at the moment, it is the words "If the alleged facts are true,.." that I want to draw to your attention. The very first sentence of your blog piece indicates a closed mind. I know you take their shilling but can you really trust the Daily Mail to have got their facts right? In view of the Mail's history, I suspend judgement.

Nehama

Exactly! What Stanley said.

Is anyone actually surprised that an FCO turned out to be a dyed-in-the-wool Jew-hater? The only shocker here is that the poor man lost control and let it show in public (very un-Foreign Office).

logdon

Sean Harbord, February 9th,2009 1:45pm

I take your point about due process but did the sacked Christian nurse receive that nicety? And as for the Daily Mail shilling, this story has been run the Times and Telegraph. Also, and I hate to pour rain on your parade, there is such a thing as suspension whilst facts are examined. Or putting it another way if a criminal is arrested and charged they are often, if the crime warrants it, refused bail and then held in remand. Don't want all those nasty crims wandering around until the slow process of law takes it's course do we?

Suffolkbor

It is people like Rowan Laxton who are the real danger to this country if he indeed espoused these views .
Nutjob muslim clerics are ten a penny in Britain today but people who walk the corridors of power and influence are the ones who need to be exposed and ousted from their comfortable , smug posistions .
They would quite happily sell all British people , whatever their religion down the river for their evil fascination with all things Islamic .
I bet that it is not just Jews that he allegedly has an outspoken antipathy toward but anyone who does not tow the liberal/left islamofacist line about Israel.
That is no compensation for Jewish folks however .

Original Tony

It's all coming home to roost.
Britain limited Jewish migration to Israel to 75 000 people a year, leading up to world war 2.
This meant that Britain is directly responsible for sending millions of Jews to the gas chambers in WW2.
Britain turned its back on Israel in the 30's and 40's, even after jews fought for Britain and now Britain is being repaid.
It's capital is called Londonistan, it has Muslim peers threatening to raise thousands of protesters if Geert Wilders film Fitna is shown in the HoL. It has mosques everywhere and the threat of sharia law festers in the background.
Britain has got what it deserves because the Bible very clearly states that God will bring blessings upon the friends of Israel.
What has Britain achieved since 1948? Lets see: lost its whole empire, has gone to the dogs financially and is borderline bankrupt, has no heavy industry and half of its people suffer from mental illness or are on the dole.
Maybe there is some truth in the Bible after all?

thegrandmufti

He should be summarily fired for lack of control.

EDDIE

Surely it is incorrect to classify Jews as a race. They are descendents of tribes who practiced their particular faith. In the Middle Ages they were persecuted on religious grounds but if they converted to Christianity their lives were spared. In the nineteenth century they were classified as a race and on the basis that you cannot change a person’s racial origins they were murdered. I would avoid the racial connotation as being potentially even more lethal than adhering to a faith .

Tom

From someone who considered a green room a private place, I find the double standard deeply disappointing. Obviously, this man's actions deserve condemnation, but so does Carol Thatcher. Greater consistency please Miss Phillips.

N

I've been reading Melanie's blog everyday for sometime now. Given the past 2 month's of blogs and the coverage of Israel, i have one question: Where does all this world jew-hatred come from? Can someone please explain it? By living in th United States am i missing some sort of "jew offense" that seems to piss the world off? Am i just incredibly naive in that i can honestly and rationally side with Israel? I mean, what is it?

wonderer

EDDIE, I believe Jews are a race for the purposes of the Race Relations Act. Try Spectator 5 November 2005, Alasdair Palmer article on religious hatred law and reference to the case of Mandla v Dowell Lee.

As to the FCO, I can't prove it but I have long suspected that there are elements there who have never forgiven Israel for thwarting Ernest Bevin.

stanley Jerusalem

Eddie - you are talking undiluted intellectual codswallop.
Forget all the 'Jews' in the Royal Court cast. Forget Shlaim and his ilk. The Russian Commissars kept the Jews' identitiy by marking their identity cards 'Zhid' irrespective of how much pork they ate. The Nazis identified Jews back three generations. Milliband may be Jewish by blood but not by inclination but he would still have been 'selected'.
Sophistry in definition never cut any ice with Mosley's bully boys in the 30's and 40's. We know who the Jews are and so do they Tattele.

phil

Shaun Harbord--was it you who said this "Well, there is the ancient principle that a man is innocent until proven guilty but you seem to have forgotten that"---it does not seem to apply when you write about Israel does it ?-sorry only clarifying

phil

Why should Carole Thatcher lose her job when i suspect and hope she meant no harm to black people and yet this laxton can say such things and keep his -I do hope this will be looked into and his community service(if convicted) will be in a bagel shop .

Oliwagino Alefava Yihiri

I am glad he is arrested, this guys we trusted to run for the country are nothing but fascist, How unprofessional he is, justice is coming for everyone, I am African I don't trust this kind of people, today they say hate the Jewish, yesterday they said hate the blacks and they still say it, tomorrow is hate the Arabs who knows?

AngloWelshDragon

I would have thought that sort of behaviour would count a gross misconduct which can result in instant dismissal. He should certainly be suspended pending an investigation.

Vision Aforethought

@Original Tony: Spot on. It is super the way some posters can sum up the whole issue in one or two lucid paragraphs.

Anyway, don't worry, people reap what they sow and Britain is as you say, on it's way 'out'. After a short period of darkness and fear, things will get better. Why? It is very hard to survive and be successful (in any endeavor) if you're not driven by the will to do the right thing.

Louise

This is heartbreaking. Over 350 years of loyalty to, and achievement in, this great country and it's going to end in tears for Anglo-Jewry? Where are British Jews emigrating to? If not Israel, I thoroughly recommend Australia, which has a very heimishe and pro-Israel community - particlarly in Melbourne, sometimes dubbed "The shtetl on the Yarra".
As far as I'm aware, pastrycooks and upholsterers are among the occupations that are needed there and thus win high points! If I was a non-academic young person I would get out my wooden spoon and mixing bowl - and go for it!
This FCO mandarin reminds me a little of a former Defence Ministry advisor whom I met last year when we (committee members of a certain organisation) were at a dinner for five in a Pall Mall gentlemen's club as guests of our chairman. The talk was all about our future plans for the organisation (a continuation of what we had discussed in committee that afternoon) when, out of the blue, the man in question launched into a tirade against Israel. I was staggered. Since I have an unmistakably Jewish surname, I felt this was - to say the least - remarkably "bad form". (It was, I think, a deliberate attempt to bait me!). The other diners in our group looked embarrassed, and averted their gaze - but I felt impelled to remonstrate with him. The entire episode left a bitter taste in my mouth - high cuisine notwithstanding!

spelled juice

I suppose it's what they call a diplomatic disease.

logdon

Two headlines, one from today’s Daily Mail here...

"High-ranking Foreign Office diplomat arrested over anti-Semitic tirade in the gym"....

The other from the February 7 Telegraph here.....

CIA: "The British Pakistani community is recognised as probably al-Qaeda's best mechanism for launching an attack against North America"

How short is the ideology trail between a high ranking diplomat with his obvious prejudices and the UK Pakistani targets of our major ally in the fight against violent jihad supremacy?
It centres on an obvious common thread, ie visceral hatred of Jews but can't these imbeciles see that we, the kuffar are also similarly hated by this group and in joining in the anti Israel wafer thin guise of anti semitism they are also attacking themselves?
That taqiya and knowing on which side their bread is buttered keeps our radicalised Muslims relatively passive against the Christian infidels (for the time being) whilst the soft target ie Jews is fair game?
When a warped person like this condones and confirms that hate how the jihadis must rejoice? A green light to bigotry from our officials without one thought of where this is leading? That the opportunistic jihad obsessed Islamists see the lie of the land and exploit the useful idiots for all it's worth seems to be beyond the likes of this cretin.

Welcome the the 1935 show!

Carl

You don't seem to understand: Many people find Israel's attack and destruction in Gaza to be an outrage, a war crime. Accept that and you may be able to move on. Israel, in it's current condition, is a failed, degenerate State.

Carl

phil, of course you think that is is OK to refer to a Black guy as a "golliwog". God knows what you call Arabs.

Augustus

Throw this idiot in the Sinai desert for a few days with nothing but a shemagh and a bottle of water. That should bring him to his senses.

Charles

Original Tony & Vision Aforethought,

The only reason that Palestine provided a refuge in WW2 was because of the British Army's victory at El Alamein. At that time, the Jewish population had contingency plans to retreat to Mount Carmel, fearing the worst (they were right, Google 'Einsatzgruppe Egypt').

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Original Tony everything you said is true, it should of be in a book, did you say half of the people suffer mentally illness?, this is very correct I hope they find some kind of psychiatrists in the NHS, if not they have to import from another countries like Poland, Russia etc, believe me there wouldn't find enough doctors to heal this sick British people

Vision Aforethought man are you crazy?

ahad ha'amoratsim

N, as a Jew living in the US, I appreciate your question and recommend that you pick up a copy of "Why the Jews" by Dennis Prager and Joseph Telushkin. Your local library may also have a copy. It's concise, very readable, and much more common sense than many of the high faluting sociological and psychological studies that seem to get published on the topic.

Alexandrovich

Original Tony: "...Britain is directly responsible for sending millions of Jews to the gas chambers in WW2."

Directly? Really?

John Lauby

Oi! "Effin busted" rather.
Odds on next posting: Driver and Vehicle Agency in Swansea?

Ed

some of the comments on here absolutely beggar believe. Every other comment is drenched with anti-muslim hate and then those same people have the audacity to moan about antisemitism. Heres a quick example - 'It's capital is called Londonistan..It has mosques everywhere ..' - so what if there are mosques everywhere, whats that got to do with anything? If you truly desire an end to discrimination/hate, then look closer to home.
Also, a quick point - most of the people on here are Jewish, but historically speaking, are not semitic. The vast majority of people in Israel are not descendants of Jacob or the twelve tribes of Israel so stop harping on about historical links to Israel cos you haven't got any.

Paul Freeman

Dear Melanie

None of the usually keen-eyed contributors to your blog has noticed the crucial feature of this story. Mr Laxton is alleged to have uttered the offending words in a GYM.

Now, as the Undercover Mosque affair revealed, you can say these sorts of things or even worse such as, "as for the Jews you kill them physically” if you're in a mosque and yet not be arrested or prosecuted.

The crime for which Mr Laxton has been arrested, therefore, appears to be that he is alleged to have uttered these words largely to himself in a private gym rather than addressing a large audience in a mosque.

phil

N-no not at all you are just a normal successful balanced human being who is confident of who and what he is .

Winston Smith

And I wonder just how high up the ladder the Jewish Hatred goes? This Rowan Laxton is merely the tip of the Iceberg(or bottom of the ladder) of Anti Semitism in the UK political/media/arts world establishment. There are many more, just look at the rant that Cherie Blair's sister gave at a pro Palestine rally.
Common Purpose has been indoctrinating very well.

Meh

Is the heart of the political establishment really the gym at the FCO? I always assumed it would be the bar at The Liberal Club.

stanley Jerusalem

Louise let's face it, the UK was somewhere to pitch our tents for a while. The Norman Barons paid for their Crusades and other jollies with our money then 'cancelled' their debts by massacering us. Richard I ehjoyed a bit of Jew-baiting to enliven his sexually-perveted court. Oliver Cromwell saw the fiscal justification for quietly nodding to a fait accompli but never actually passed a Parliamentary Statute permitting our re-entry after our expulsion 400 years earlier. We embarrassed the Commons into accepting us on the back of accepting Catholics in the 19th Century. In 1900 Jew-baiting was rife in the East End of London and only the Shoah shut their mouths [in public] for a while. Don't get too comfortable. The Egyptian, Babylonian, Assyrian,Medean and Persian, Greek and Roman Empires have come and gone. The Crusades, Cossacks, Pogroms and Nazis have come and gone.
We must be doing something right.
If we have to learn to live without cod and chips, so be it.

stanley Jerusalem

Winston Smith - Please don't confuse the heights of the ladder with scum like Laxton and dross like Cherie Booth's sister.
I once had a very old neighbour, an eminent doctor who said to me " Show me an Arabist in our FCO and I'll show you a pederast".Obviously he considered their proclivities perverted in more than one direction.

stanley Jerusalem

Winston Smith - Please don't confuse the heights of the ladder with scum like Laxton and dross like Cherie Booth's sister.
I once had a very old neighbour, an eminent doctor who said to me " Show me an Arabist in our FCO and I'll show you a pederast".Obviously he considered their proclivities were perverted in more than one direction.

Velvel Zev Weisz

I suggest that for every utterance of hatred for Jews/Israelis/Zionists we should encourage 100 Radical Islamics or fascists to take up citizenship in the UK ,that is if there are still some not ,as yet, there already.Perhaps that it was the likes of Laxton deserve.Then he can share his like views with his new found friends.Perhaps a form of Laxaton will prevent further attacks of verbal diarrhoea

Raymond in DC

Says Carl, "You don't seem to understand: Many people find Israel's attack and destruction to be an outrage, a war crime." So what? Many people are idiots. Like Carl. Others find Israel's action to be legitimate self-defense against wanton aggression from Hamas.

He goes on, "Israel, in it's [sic] current condition, is a failed, degenerate State." Well, at least you call it a "State" and not an "entity". Got any more cliches to throw our way? I'm proudly American. But I'd feel less shame as a citizen of that "failed, degenerate State" than I would a citizen of the UK.

A corrective to Original Tony: He writes, "Britain limited Jewish migration to Israel to 75 000 people a year" Actually, it was 75,000 over FIVE years. And they made sure they never reached even those numbers.

Paul Freeman

Dear Melanie

None of the usually keen-eyed contributors to your blog has noticed the crucial feature of this story. Mr Laxton is alleged to have uttered the offending words in a GYM.

Now, as the Undercover Mosque affair revealed, you can say these sorts of things or even worse such as, "As for the Jews you kill them physically” if you're in a mosque and yet not be arrested or prosecuted.

The crime for which Mr Laxton has been arrested, therefore, appears to be that he is alleged to have said these things largely to himself in a private gym rather than publicly addressing a large audience in a mosque!

Roy

This is a sign, that just below the surface the establishment are losing it. A small country fighting for its life is poking the enemy in the eye. Which is like poking the Westminster brigade, one by one, in the eye with their own umbrella.

Vision Aforethought

If you want to see some really biased reporting, the nasty and very dishonest Mr. Jeremy Bowen is doing his slimy thing on Panoroma right now. I'm switching off as he's just taking it all in! He believes every lie - because he made his mind up a long time ago.

I wonder if he has made a documentary about any really 'evil' regimes out there?

Vision Aforethought

@Margaret Muller-Johansson: Me crazy? Don't know. I didn't really go into detail, but was making the point that despite all the anti-semitism today, we'll prevail in the long term because we're driven by a true sense of justice and it will eventually shine through the lies put out by those who have alternative motives, such as the disgusting Mr. Bowen who I just forced myself to watch on Panorama using obviously manipulative photography and scripted 'interviews' to twist the knife into Israel just a little more. With your typical naive Brit lapping this stuff up, it is no wonder this Mr. Laxton lost his marbles, he doesn't know the truth. And that is why all these lies and propaganda are so dangerous.

OK, back to work. Enough venting for today. Sleep tight.

Jenny

Tom, February 9th, 2009 3:21pm, the green room is indeed a private place, which is why people are handed alcohol there. Are you handed alcohol at your desk? Moreover, Carol Thatcher was not screaming '****ing anything' or for anybody to be 'wiped off the face off the earth' across a whole room.

On top of that she does not work for the foreign office. How can anyone work for the foreign office if they are calling for genocide?

A gollywog is a stuffed toy people used to hug before they went to bed. '****ing Jews', as this man calls such people, are, in his view, something to be 'wiped off the face of the earth’.

There clearly is a difference.

Suffolkbor

Original Tony :
Please do not make ignorant and totally laughable sweeping statements about Half of all British people being mentally ill and on the dole .
Where on Earth did you get this information from ?
Was it the American National Enquirer , that quality comic book that claimed some years ago that Bill Clinton was a shape shifting alien who had infiltrated the White House .
I fail to see how it adds any value or extends any compassion to our Jewish population here in Britain by tripping out these half baked and unsubstantiated insults about my country .

phil

Carl dont ever tell me what I think ! you are such an idiot you dont even know what you think -I have lots of black friends and thankfully they know what I think of them ,unlike you -just more muck stirring as usual what a sick sod you are ,I pity you .

Yehuda

Austin Barry: It's a pity that all those Britishers who are besotted with romantic notions of the Arabs and of their champion, T.E. Lawrence, are utterly unaware that Lawrence was actually a non-Jewish Zionist in that he articulated the common sense vision of a reconstituted Jewish polity and an Arab one co-operating to ensure a brilliant future for both. The leading contemporaneous Arab chieftain, the Emir Feisal, actually echoed these sentiments publicly and in writing.
This was too much for the Foreign Office to stomach, so their subsequent machinations ensured that this vision would be frustrated.

rippon

It’s easy to hate Israel and the Jews there if you watch any television. Just consider Panorama tonight. Bowen didn’t even have to practise any ‘bias’ in any direction. The Israeli army spokesperson, for example, dug his own hole with the chilling words that came out of his mouth. Tsipi Livni also generates more hatred towards Israel every time she speaks at press conferences, e.g. ‘there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza’; and no news service is practising any ‘bias’ by simply screening her speeches.

Yehuda

Charles: the British Army fought valiantly at El Alamein, as it did elsewhere, but it did so not in order to ensure that a Jewish nation-state would be reconstituted, but in order to save Britain from the Nazis.

Also, while the Zionist vision does embody the notion of a reconstituted Jewish state as a refuge for the persecuted, its principal objective is the restoration of a situation where the Jewish People determine their own future (with the obvious qualification that ,to a degree ,there is interdependence among all sovereign states)rather than be the object of other nation-states' decisions.
The eminent British Labor statesman, Richard Crossman, a strong Zionist supporter, clearly perceived this when he declared that the future Israel would not be simply "a funk hole for the Jews."

I suspect that an important reason for some people's anti-Zionism is that it has restored to the Jewish People the dignity of moulding its life and future, rather than having them moulded by others. This is too much for the Jew-haters to stomach.

Bazza

Alexandrovich
Don't worry of course Britain were not responsible for sending millions to the Gas Chambers in WW2.....as British Bishop Richard Williamson will tell you.....no Jews died in Gas Chambers....Anti Semitism is everywhere in this beautiful green country of ours!

Daibhidh MacAdhaimh

In my days of trying to outgrow my vest at the gym, we used to emit grunts when pushing heavy barbells to the limits. These indecipherable sounds formed the typical, harmless yet motivational gym soundtrack. Nowadays, in keeping with the irrational, unhinged liberal spirit of the age, Mr Laxton's emitions at the gym reveal that this merciless, infectious spirit has even infested the humble grunt, giving clarity of rant to its anti-semitism. Perhaps Mr Laxton should consider taking up the less stressful activity of deep-sea diving instead.

Nancy Baumgartner, USA

The Jews have always been the objects of contempt and persecution. Their crimes have included prioritizing education, work, and pursuing success- so obviously they must be destroyed. In this fallen, evil world it makes sense.

John Edwards

and of course nobody shouted "f***ing Arabs" at a TV screen when the Twin Towers came down

Adam B.

Carl, that's great, a completely baseless accusation of racism against phil, whilst you refuse to condemn the anti-semitic hamas charter. You even refuse to condemn someone shouting "f****** Jews!" You are one sick sad case.

spelled juice

Carl, a diplomat and a senior one as it is, is not "most people". He's supposed to be composed, and somehow more knowledgeable than those hordes on the streets.
Or is this the kind of diplomatic behaviour you expect from senior civil servants?

Sanchez

Yeah, let's focus on his reaction instead of what provoked it. Don't get me wrong I'm not justifying his actions but how much evidence, public opinion, legal challenges do you guys need to see before you come to the correct conclusion that israel actions disgust the majority of planet earth.

Adam B.

Does anyone believe this Laxton individual is a lone case in the Foreign Office? Anyone seen the episode of Yes Prime Minister where a Foreign Office diplomat/creep is endlessly anti-Israel? (The PM gets revenge on him by assigning him to Tel Aviv!) The FO is notorious for its long history of anti-Semitism, and that show was made over 20 years ago - yes Carl, before Cast Lead.

Nehama

Sanchez even if every action by every Israeli disgusts every non-Israeli on the planet, it doesn't mean they are wrong. But I don't expect you to understand, clearly you are not the type of person to swim against the tide...

Adam B.

Sanchez, so you speak for the majority of the planet do you?

Arrogance personified!

And you'll find that the latest Yougov polls do not back up your claim. Look it up.

gary ashton

great britain! more like pathetic grey fiscally and morally bankrupt island living on saudi handouts and cheap lefty ideology to focus it's attention from the real issues. the nation sold it's soul many years ago. it's gonna take some major 'wake up' to re gain it.

anglicus

Ed. I'm not Jewish and the only people I know personally who really hate muslims are Hindus and Christians from India. The general British public are just fed up with so many being in our country and seemingly getting preferential treatment, rightly or wrongly. If this chinless wonder at the FO had had a rant about Islam, his feet wouldn't have touched the floor on the way out.

PlumWdhse

Now this would explain recent David M pronouncements re India and Kashmir and Pakistan and Afghanista. If the FO South Asia chief is so anti Israel, it would not be a stretch to conclude he anti anti Islam as well. India is in trouble.

Jerry

Re Sanchez: "...Israeli actions disgust the majority of planet earth."
/
You need a lot of support to maintain your anti-Israel position. It is a severe logical error to believe that the more people who hold a position, the more valid it is. I hope that somewhere inside of you there is a criterion that says, "I would change my position on Israel's action if the following facts came to light." If not, you know what that makes you. My guess is that you have never been to Israel. One small fact for you: Sderot residents needed to be within 15 seconds of a bomb shelter no matter what they were doing, including sleeping or showering or having sex. This situation persisted for six years before the Israeli government took action. Would you want to live like that?

George Steiner

I understand from the foreign press that Mr. Laxton was ambasador to Pakistan and served in Afghanistan. His wife is Muslim. He may well be one himself. I also understand that he must report daily to his boss, the Miliband. What an oportunity. He can say every day "you f....g Jew. Must be a happy man.

Alex Bensky

N., you don't fully get it because you (and I) are Americans. God knows we have problems here but that sort of manic, rabid Jew-hatred really is rarely to be found at the upper levels of politics and culture, and not all that much below it. In Europe it's quite common for people like Laxton to hold and express these sort of views.

Keep that in mind next time you read about how we are uncultured and unsophisticated, and we could learn from the Europeans. What we could learn we really don't need to know. Reminds me of Tom Wolfe's remark that the dark night of fascism is always about to fall across America...but somehow lands on Europe.

I regret I never had the chance to thank my grandparents that they left Poland and Lithuania and didn't stop until they got to Rochester, New York, and of all places, Omaha.

jose garcia

edwards said
a"nd of course nobody shouted "f***ing Arabs" at a TV screen when the Twin Towers came down."

no but they were busy chanting and dancing in celebration on the streets of the whole middle east.

Jay David

"Every other comment is drenched with anti-muslim hate and then those same people have the audacity to moan about antisemitism. Heres a quick example - 'It's capital is called Londonistan..It has mosques everywhere ..' - so what if there are mosques everywhere, whats that got to do with anything?"

Hmm, having looked through this whole thread I find that "Ed" is lying through his teeth when he says that "every other comment is drenched with anti-muslim hate". Even the pathetic example he picks..."London is filled with mosques" is not anti-muslim hate...where is the hate in that statement ? Really, ed, you anti-semites will have to try harder if you're going to make ANY sense.

ESCohen

Freud wrote that Christian anti-Semitism was not becuse the Jews rejected Christ; it was becuse Christ was a Jew. The Europeans were content to be pagans, and along came Jesus the Jew, and stuck them with monothiesm and a system of moral values, which were too hard for them. "Give us back our paganism".

Trumpeldor

From yehuda "I suspect that an important reason for some people's anti-Zionism is that it has restored to the Jewish People the dignity of moulding its life and future, rather than having them moulded by others. This is too much for the Jew-haters to stomach."

Thanks brother, I fully agree with your view.
Many non Jews are unable to swallow Jewish renewn sovereignty on their soil .

Stephen Lark

Yes, I saw Reichsmarshal von Bowen on alJabeeba last night as well.

Neil

Since when was the Daily Fail a respectable or reliable news source?

stanley Jerusalem

Jerry
February 10th, 2009 3:01am
This situation persisted for six years before the Israeli government took action. Would you want to live like that?
Well we are trying to remedy that degree of inertia, or lack thereof, today with General Elections.
Watch this space!

Lizzy

Crikey, what a story. The shining ray of light is the fact that other gym goers noticed and were perturbed at his behaviour!

Alan M.

There has always been the danger of Arabists in the FCO going "native". Sounds like this bloke is one of them. A section of the FCO will be happy he's mucked up so badly.

Jonathan

Yeah, if he was arrested we know he's guilty don't we? That's why it's a waste of money to have courts and a legal system. The KGB never needed them, why should we?

Let's be clear- if this guy thinks what he's accused of saying, he should be run out of his job. But the fact the Daily Mail reports that it is "alleged" he said it doesn't go very far in that direction.

Rex

First of all, I'm glad that this guy has been arrested. I'm surprised that more of you haven't applauded this, but have rather turned it upside down to be a negative thing.

What I do agree with however, is that this won't solve the problem. In fact, I despise the legislation under which he is arrested as the worst kind of "mental crime." The fact is, that it simply drives people to hide their perspectives more, against blacks, muslims, jews, and white folks... in other words, better to see it up front and deal with it. This guy doesn't deserve to be in any position if he can't see the difference between Israel and Jewish people.

But ironically he shares a lot in common with many posts here on this blog, best represented by the completely ridiculous concept of "jew hating jews."

The principle that a Jewish person who disagrees with Israel is not a Jew, but a Jew Hater, is the worst kind of fascism, because it strips a person of their inherent right to their own person. It is not unique to this group, there are those who think Obama is not black because he's "sold out" and others who would say he's not American or as it has been alluded to here, an American Hating American. This simple idea strips people of their right to an identity.

Israel is not the sole representative and sole defense of Jewishness, but it is crucial to the Jewish people. I accept that as a non Jewish person. But ironically, being non-Jewish, I don't need a nation to defend my "race, religion, outlook." In this sense the Jewish people are not only a self proclaimed God chosen people, but also a very distinct psychological and political grouping. There are very few tribal groups left in the Western nations, and frankly, where there is Tribalism, there is modern war. Read, Iraq, many parts of Africa, and even internal divisions amongst Palestinians.

I actually do applaud Israel for extending voting rights to it's Arab population, but at the same time, that is a more dangerous exposure to the "Jewish state." Someone once mentioned that Europe was christian, the middle east Muslim, India Hindu, so Israel had a right to be Jewish, I think anyone can see the flaw in that argument, it's leads to war.

Another irony is how many are attacking multi-cultural Britain for allowing Muslims to change it, whilst wanting it to accept their Jewishness.

If people were simply more clear about Zionism, Israel, and Jewishness, all of which are distinct if overlapping concepts, the moderate majority would have much more to offer. In other words, if I don't like something Israel does, it doesn't mean I hate Jews, whilst not all things Israel does are according to a Zionist agenda, although such an agenda exists for a few people, and although Israel is "mostly" for a Jewish population.

So I hope this man will lose his job, for which his racism is entirely at odds with his position, but I wish he hadn't been arrested, as that is a scary form of "thought crime" which could impact any of us as these terms evolve, and I wish Israel good fortune, just get rid of the settlements, and you'll have my vote, and I'd even be happy to visit. Simple request... oh wait, Israel is about to elect someone who vows to do no such thing, because Peace will be imposed with bombs.. nice one.

Ed

I love how nobody addressed my point about how most Jews and Israelis aren't semitic because they have no historical/ genetical link with the biblical Israelites (i.e. the original 'chosen people'). I am reliably told that the few in Israel who can trace their ancestory back to Jacob or Abraham are a disenfranchised minority. Phil, you seem to be the most vocal commentor on this blog, treating it almost as your own, i'd like to ask you one question. The basis of your claim that the Jews are entitled to the land of Israel is you claim a historical one. Namely that the Jews occupied those lands thousands of years ago before being forcefully removed. I put it to you Phil, that this is no longer applicable as you, like most other people on this blog and most other Jews in general, are not semitic by blood (not faith). What do you say to that?

Gary O

It seems that these days to qualify as a Middle Eastern Expert, anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic sentiments are a pre-requisite – listen to Jeremy Bowen, the esteemed bbc Middle Eastern "expert".

His superiors must have known about Laxton's attitude towards Israel and Jews, hence his postings to countries where these feelings are common.

Gary O

@N
February 9th, 2009 3:25pm

I think it stems from the jealousy of Jewish people.

peter

Just imagine what the FCO knows about Israel that the rest of us can only guess at - to provoke such a reaction.

That s the real news. If Phillips was a journalist, she d report on that.

Instead she is a propagandist, with the objectivity that often accompanies obsession.

Winston Smith

stanley Jerusalem
February 9th, 2009 8:20pm

If you look at my post you'll find that I said "I wonder how high up the ladder Jewish Hatred goes"? I stated that he is merely the tip of the iceberg in anti semitism in the political/media/arts world establishments.

phil

Ed-nada " why ?because you do not want to know ed -you just want to say something objectionable ,and we have enough s..t stirers here-I say A lot because I care a lot ed .ok

phil

REX .An interesting post and some of which I agree with but I must point out appropo-"In this sense the Jewish people are not only a self proclaimed God chosen people, but also a very distinct psychological and political grouping" ---------The Jews were "chosen" to keep the almighties law ,nothing else .neither the oranges nor the oil-that is of course if one believes the bible ,that is the only "privilege" ---

Mel Brookes relates that when Moses came down from mount Sinai he saw the Israelites dancing round an idol known as Phil(no relation ) ,he was so angry he smote the rock etc ,the said Israelites heard the thunder and saw the lightening and screamed out LOOK OUT THERE,S SOMEONE BIGGER THAN PHIL,they were then given the laws to keep and have been too scared ever since to ignore them .Anyhow REX there are bigger fairy tales being told round the world currently ,tune into the idiot carl most days here .

Penny

Ed - I realise that you have directed your points to Phil, but out of interest, could you direct us to the source of your information in respect of Jewish ancestry?

It is extremely difficult to reply to any statement made within the context of a discussion if the supporting evidence is not cited.

Allow Phil the courtesy of checking that your source is, indeed, reliable.

Many thanks

nosmo29

To Ed:

I suggest you look up the findings of the last few years' research into genetic origins of Jews to show that you are wrong. Also quite apart from genetics, half of the present population of Israeli Jews are not European in origin. Most of their families fled from Arabic countries - it is therefore not surprising that it is precisely them who distrust the Arabs most.

Mister B

N asks "I've been reading Melanie's blog everyday for sometime now. Given the past 2 month's of blogs and the coverage of Israel, i have one question: Where does all this world jew-hatred come from?"

I'm baffled too N. I like Jews a lot, as do most people I know. But the answer if you like is very simple indeed: Melanie Phillips is so obsessed with the spectre of anti-semitism that she writes about very little else. Don't let her monomania cloud your judgement.

gary

"I love how nobody addressed my point about how most Jews and Israelis aren't semitic because they have no historical/ genetical link with the biblical Israelites"

By simple definition of the word - it was invented for exactly this meaning - "antisemitism" is hatred of Jews. The word has nothing to do with any current ideas of what "semitic" means.

"Semitic" in Germany in the late 1800s was a classification of languages, not a racial genetic inheritance.

Happy now - Your ignorance has been addressed.

peter

Mel Brooks is where Phil gets his history lessons.

He should learn from other sources. Here's one;

The Palestinian Representative's Speech at the UN went like this.

'Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Moses. When he struck the rock and it brought forth water, he thought, 'What a good opportunity to have a bath!'

He removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water.
When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished. An Israeli had stolen them.'

The Israeli representative jumped up furiously and shouted, 'What are you talking about? The Israelis weren't there then.'

The Palestinian representative smiled and said: 'And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech.'

JAWolf

Shaun, as you say, " Well, there is the ancient principle that a man is innocent until proven guilty but you seem to have forgotten that." Perhaps, but public officials are routinely suspended from their job while under criminal investigation. 'Gardening leave' is certianly merited.

Personally, I say transfer him to the new consulate in Sederot.

Scipio

I always thought that Jew hatred was the standard course in the rats nest that is the Foreign Office. Ernest Bevin and Anthony Eden would be proud.

Linda Smith

Rex posted: "....being non-Jewish, I don't need a nation to defend my "race, religion, outlook..." It matters not how you identify yourself, but how others identify you. Edith Stein, a catholic theologian nun, was murdered by the Nazis because she was born into a Jewish family. Anyone with any slight connection to Judaism knows from history that when the chips are down they are at risk. We need a bolt hole and it's called Israel.

pm317

Well, UK is reduced to pleading with the Pakistanis to not attack them?
Melanie, I read this in an Indian newspaper. What is going on?

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/dont-attack-us-please-uk-ads-to-say-on-pak-tv/421654/

Nehama

Ed... Of course nobody has addressed your point, it's boll*x. Where and when exactly do you claim the descendency from Jacob (AKA Israel) was broken? Your "reliable Source" is not reliable, and you are a fool for believing propoganda.

Furthermore, Semitic is a language group not a genetic group - the language group consists of Hebrew, Aramaic (Syriac), Arabic, Akkadian, Ge'ez, Ugaritic and Phoenician. And just for your knowledge there has been a continual Jewish presence in Israel for over 3000 years, that's 1500 years longer than any Arab claim to the place, and there has never been any kind of schism between the Jews who stayed and those who left and returned.

stanley Jerusalem

Ed - I am a Kohen. That is, I am descended from the tribe of Levi [Jacob's third son] and from the Branch that Aharon [Aaron], Moses' elder brother started of the priesthood. How do I know? My dad told me and his dad told him. How can can I be sure? I have the Kohen [Cohen] gene. That's right, from 3,500 years ago when my ancestors lived in the Holy Land [called Palestine by the Romans, 1,500 years later, when they thought to disguise its identity and discourage Jewish nationalism and revolts].Where is my true homeland? here in Israel. Not Aldgate East where we all got out [ to be said out loud with a proper Cockney accent].Can anyone gainsay what I have claimed? I doubt it.Do other Jews have a similar claim. Yes, most of them. What does it matter where they were born? The locals would never acknowledge any debt of gratitude to them for their contribution to their civilisation, would they? I didn't notice the Milice in La Belle France doing it in 1940 and I don't see 'Er Majesty's Constabulary doing it now.It's all ignorance and fear. Either we are dirty or we are rich. Either way the Lumpen Proletariat and the landed gentry join metaphorical hands in telling us what they think of us so why hang around for them? Laxton you are welcome to the Caliphate of Brittanistan.Let's see what they think of you old boy.

Nehama

Mister B, err, no. Melanie is not obsessed, she is Jewish, and once people start attacking you and your people for your genetic/cultural heritage, you are obliged to respond. Melanie is in a position where she can highlight the issue of increased anti-Semitism to a greater number of people than, say, I can, and she therefore, n doubt, feels a greater imperative to publicise what is going on.

But hey, what you say is the traditional responce of anti-Semites when Jews call them on their anti-Semitism, so guess what, I don't believe your claim to be a philo-Semite. Would you say the same thing to a black person highlighting an increase in anti-Black racism?

Who feels it, knows it.

Nehama

Peter, and we can see where you got your history from too. You can fantasise as much as you like that an Israeli diplomat would make such a comment, but it won't change the Jews' historical claim to the land which predates any Arab claim by some 1500 years. Nor will any dispute about Israel justify anti-Semitism against non-Israeli Jews.

RUTH

410 Children.

Just a thought.

Brian O'Connor

Ed wrote (February 9th, 2009 6:29pm):

If you truly desire an end to discrimination/hate, then look closer to home.

Translation: "There's no such thing as an enemy; only friends whose just grievances must be appeased."

Gary O

@Peter
February 10th, 2009 2:38pm
In the story that I heard, it was a Jewish guy who went in the water brought forth by Moses and the Palestinian who stole the clothes. And when this story was told at the UN by an Israeli, it was the Palestinian who jumpped up in anger and said in anger that they weren't there at the time.
My story is the real one, yours is made up my some islamists.

Good try, but a typical ruse used by islamists and one that many of us are all too aware.

Rex

Hi Linda, I understand what you say, and your example of Edith Stein is a good one.

However, imagine I say that American's need America as a bolt hole. It doesn't make sense, because what is an American? He or she can be Jewish, Christian, Atheist, Hindu, Muslim, all or none of the above. And if anyone tried to say that American's are white, protestant, of British descent, they would be rightly accused of extreme racism.

Anyone familiar with White homeland concepts in America and South Africa will recognize this.

The contradiction at the heart of Israel is that it is BOTH a secular modern democratic nation which accepts atheists, peoples of other races and religions etc, AND and ethnic and religious entity. I'm not just talking about it's relations with others, but I mean within itself as well: settler movement, orthodox, russian, secular- all Jewish and yet so vastly different.

I wonder if the paradox can be successfully resolved in the modern age when people are both trying to erase such divisions in a "multi-cultural world" and yet where the divisions "Jewish" and "Muslim" still stand out... but I happen to like strong vibrant culture, and if the consequence is war, maybe that is the price to pay for having real culture, rather than Disney led bland globalised relativism, but now I'm stealing thoughts from Neal Stephenson.

P.S. Phil, my words were carefully chosen* I am personally a big fan of pagan idol worship and think the Judeao-Christian-Islamic meme of ownership of God is the root of many problems. I would hazard a guess that some Orthodox Jews wouldn't quite agree with your interpretation :)

Zeilig

I'm Jewish and live in central London. I'm verbally abused going to and from Synagogue at least twice a month, and this has been going on for over 2 years. Like ALL our friends and family we are starting to move our assets out of the UK. We are neither blind nor stupid and can read the writing on the wall. Someone in a madrassah has already planned the cattle trucks into a forest clearing for us and we arent hanging around to read the timetable!

Benjamin Gray

He's still in his job because the charge hasn't been proven. The FCO have given assurances that if he's proven to have done what is alleged, "appropriate action will be taken".

Steve

He's entitled to his opinion in face of Israeli atrocities. Keep your thought control to yourself, Melanie; this isn't 1984!!!!

Penny

Will anyone using the term 'Israeli atrocities' have the common sense to at least mention 'Hamas atrocities'?

Let's just review a few of them:

Did Hamas fire thousands of rockets into Israel over a period of years?

Answer - Yes.

Is Hamas fully aware of the military capabilities of the IDF?

Answer - Absolutely.

Why, then, did Hamas attempt to provoke a response?

Answer - In eliciting such a response and employing their usual military strategies, Hamas guarantees the eyes of the world will focus on Palestine. Being far more aware of the Western logic than the West is of Middle Eastern logic, Hamas knows very well that their major weapon is the ability to manipulate sympathy.

In the years building up to the recent conflict, provoked by Palestinian rockets, did Hamas
a) build a single shelter?
b) implement a single emergency policy designed to protect their people?
c) devise an evacuation policy for the women and children?

Answer - No. Question - why not? Answer - maximising casualties is an important part of their strategy.

Did Hamas allow people to wander around in the street where tanks and rockets were evident? Did Hamas use children as human shields?

Answer - Yes. Question - To what end? Again - to maximise casualties and thereby elicit sympathy.

Does Hamas run summer schools in which children of 12+ are taught the basics of suicide bombing?

Answer - Yes. Child protection isn't high on their list of priorities, clearly.

Does such a long-term strategy indicate their desire for peace?

Answer - No. Because peace is actually the last thing they want.

Have the Palestinian people received more aid per capita than any other comparable situation?

Answer - Yes.

Why have the billions of dollars given to date not been used to create a peaceful, welfare state?

Answer - Because peaceful, cared-for people are not bitter and hateful. They become human beings who do not wish to be a part of on-going conflict. Such people are of no use to Palestinian leaders.

Again I quote the infamous statement made by Zuheir Muhsin, military head of the PLO and member of the Exec:

"Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian
identity serves only tactical purposes. The
founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool
in the continuing battle against Israel ..."

Prior to 1967, the term 'Palestinian people' had no academic or international credibility. These people are simply being used to further a jihadist aim.

Focusing on Israel does absolutely nothing to end the Palestinian situation. The West will continue to pump aid into Gaza - very little of which will make the life of ordinary people any better. It will simply swell the coffers of their leaders and allow them to continue creating bitterness, hatred, poisoned minds and war.

Anyone who truly abhors the unnecessary deaths and manipulation of children would consider the role Hamas plays.

Topper

Zeilig: "Someone in a madrassah has already planned the cattle trucks into a forest clearing for us and we arent hanging around to read the timetable!"

That someone would probably be the Muslim Council of Britain appointed Commissioner for Jewish Affairs (South-East) - Laxton has all the credentials for the job.

N

Steve, just to clarify, what "atrocities" have the Israelis committed? Where are the medical expirements? Gas chambers? Rape parties? Open murder of women and children? Torture? Since when is protecting yourself from genocidal muslim terroists "committing atrocities?"

Linda Smith

Rex: No, you didn't understand what I said. Americans do not need America as a bolt hole because the Americans you list -Jewish, Christian, Atheist, Hindu, Muslim etc. - all have other countries in the world which share their religion/culture - except Jews. That's why Jews need Israel where they won't be persecuted and murdered because of their Jewish antecedents.

What you see as a "contradiction at the heart of Israel" is the enactment of Jewish values. That "contradiction" is what Islamics cannot abide - real democracy and tolerance of difference of opinion. Jews love to argue and they don't (usually!) kill each other when they have a difference of opinion. They just argue louder and longer.

You say "people are both trying to erase such divisions in a 'multicultural world' and yet where the divisions 'Jewish' and 'Muslim' still stand out'". What people are you talking about?

Adam B.

Steve - I see, so it's OK to shout "f***ing Jews" in a public gym?

Adam B.

Ruth, what's your source?

Just a thought.

Katie

Rowan Laxton can go to the gym as much as he likes, but he'll never get fit if he doesn't like Jews.

Louise

Stanley, I see you'r a history buff (and therefore a man after my own heart!). Don't worry. My bags are packed. Incidentally, as an aside, since you have risen to Ed's bait and answered his racist codswallop, I'll give what I believe triggered Koestler's interest in the Khazars. This is - as far as I'm aware - a Louise original, but it occurred to me when I was many years younger and prettier and first read "The Thirteenth Tribe", and I still believe it: Koestler's family were Magyarised Jews, and my hunch is that for psychological reasons he took confort in convincing himself that he too descended from a Turkic people. I also saw that there are linguistic objections to the Koestler theory, as well as the cohanite/levite descent one, and Koestler's pet theory has of course since been disproved by genetic profiling.

Clive

I see that Geert Wilders has been refused entry to Britain. Or should I say Londistan?

Peter Thomas

Original Tony - your figure of 75,000 per year is tragically incorrect. The allocation was 75,000 TOTAL (10,000 per year + 25,000 extra conditional on the approval of the High Commissioner). By the end of the war actually only 51,000 Jewish immigrants over 39-45 were allowed to stay.
The UK was therefore complicit in the Holocaust. The UK government also refused to bomb Auschwitz, claiming that the bombers did not have the range, which was a lie. After the war the Royal Navy shelled and attacked boats carrying Holocaust survivors across the Mediterranean. Some of those who reached Israel were interned
when they arrived and some were sent to Cyprus and Mauritius and imprisoned. Details in the film 'The Forsaken Pronmise' from www.hatikvah.co.uk

G Dalawi

Zeilig I am sorry to hear what hapenned to you, some people think we are multicultural society and we got along in Britain, of course we are like the united nations but we don't get along, reading your story I am not surprise things like this is happening in Central London, I don't know who to blame the government or wherever, but their are so many people who don't belong living here, because they don't understand the western civilization and value, people who don't understand freedom and respect, I am foriegner myself of muslim background but I been harassed by Islamic extremist gangs so many times, no body care no body help me, many people don't believe me, now I have to be careful and watch my back, it is not easy, Some people are bringing to their believes and cultures to the streets of London they are even harassing the muslim people if they are different then them, they don't want to respect, someone mentioned to me in the past it is hate crime, I am finding out I am not the only one witnessing this but other people like the Jewish even some Christians are, it was not long ago when I read somewhere that a priest got beat up, their is nothing we could do until the law of this country changes, if it doesn't change many people will immigrate somewhere else

Brian O'Connor

Penny wrote (February 10th, 2009 6:03pm):

Being far more aware of the Western logic than the West is of Middle Eastern logic, Hamas knows very well that their major weapon is the ability to manipulate sympathy.

Exactly.

It is my belief that those who are apologetic for, if not sympathetic with, the goals and tactics of Radical Islam plus its secular fellow travelers lack imagination.

I see them mired in the mythology, ideology, thought processes and language of postmodernism and cultural relativism, unable to imagine that what is self-evidently Truth and Virtue to them might not be to those who they have decided are the noble but oppressed "other," and in whose behalf they claim to work.

Linda Smith

I would like to say to Ruth (10 Feb 3:34pm) "410 Children.Just a thought":

Ruth - just a thought. The Israelis are facing an enemy, Hamas, armed by Iran, who are religiously intent on genocide of the Jewish population of Israel and who also incite genocide of world wide Jewry in their Charter. I am not acquainted with Hezbollah's charter but I have no doubt it is similar in content. Having been through one Holocaust of 6 million Jews in living memory, Jews now know that when threated with genocide they must take it seriously. 410 dead children in Gaza is a tragedy but the blame lies with Hamas. Ruth, do you think Israelis should turn the other cheek, allow Hamas to continue arming itself with larger and more sophisticated weaponry, and allow themselves to be slaughtered? If my maths is correct, that would be more than 410 children - but maybe you value Muslims more than Jews.

Augustus

Clive, I understand the real reason for the ruling is that Lord Ahmed renewed his threat to organize a 10,000 mass Muslim demonstration. It is also interesting that the Dutch Parliament has also become involved with socialist parties also condemning the decision. They argue, correctly I understand, that elected parliamentarians of EU countries cannot be excluded from entry by members. If Wilders just arrives, as he has said he is thinking of doing on Thursday, it will be interesting to see how he is treated and what the authorities will say to him, as plainly it will not be him who will have threatened to cause civil unrest.

Graeme, Canterbury, Kent

Louise,I agree with you. The Thirteenth Tribe book has been proven to be incorrect; Ashkenazi Jews are not turkic but are in fact descended form the Semite Jews in Germany since the Middle Ages and before and the genetic evidence for this exists. This is often used to delegitimise Israel saying the the Jews are Turks and should not be there. Forgotten of course is the fact that at the time of the Ottoman Empire, many Turkish men married Arab women and ther is more Turkish blood in the Arabs than there is in the Ashkenazim

Zeilig

Further to Peter Thomas' comment about Mauritius, I've seen the Jewish cemetary there which is maintained by the Jewish community of South Africa. I've spoken to people who remeber the British armed guards patrolling the concentration camp where these survivors were imprisoned. Incidentally, the British set this camp up during the war to imprison Jewish escapees from occupied Europe. They obviously thought that it was remote enough so that the Jews couldnt escape to Mandate Palestine. They also refused the Jewish Agency to set up an office on Mauritius.

Zeilig

This is what Hamas does to its Muslim brothers. Imagine what it would do to Jews it captured.

http://www.road90.com/watch.php?id=rZIwlvfsAe

Charles

Peter Thomas,

Why do you suppose there was a restriction on immigration into Palestine? Could it be the little matter of a three year civil war and the need to reach a temporary peace so that tens of thousands of British troops could be redeployed to where their presence was more urgently required? You can accuse the UK of complicity in many things, but the Holocaust is not one of them.

Charles

Zeilig,

Here is a link to further information about the Mauritius camp: http://www.jewishgen.org/cemetery/africa/mauritius.html

davidka

To those on this site who disgustingly defend the rights of protestors to shout out 'Jews to the gas' and senior FO officials to rant about 'f...ng Jews' under the guise of freedom of speech, please note that the FO's cousins -ie the Home office have just denied those rights to Dutch MP Geert wilders!
On the one hand it is now open season for those who wish to verbally attack Jews, but those who make documentaries on the Koran are barred from entering the country!
Britain refuses entry to 'extremist' Wilders
at DUTCH NEWS.
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2009/02/dutch_protest_at_british_ban_o.php

Suffolkbor

America was no paragon of virtue during world war two when it came to taking in Jewish refugees .
American immigration policy was deliberately obstructive and it is estimated that between 190,000 to 200,000 Jews could have been saved had there been a genuine will to take them in .
There was a march by Rabbis to protest this situation in 1943 which was apparently snubbed by President Roosevelt .
Americans and all British bashers please take note .

Iqbal W

RUTH, just a thought. 410 not enough. Not enought truth. Not enough verification. I know. I was there. You make a fool of yourself.

JS

Ruth, just a thought. Are you actually capable of thought?

Peter Thomas

Charles.
I believe that the Balfour Declaration was opposed by many British diplomats and military people as soon as it was born. The UK then - as now - were more concerned with appeasing Arabs, even after 77% of the Mandate land had been given away to create Transjordan very early on in the period. Their attitude to the Jews of Europe faced with such a threat was merciless and callous - an unjustifiable disgrace. Jewish immigration to Israel was rigidly (over) enforced; much greater Arab immigration was ignored.

Vronika

Just a thought, Ruth. More Arab children have been murdered by Hamas than by Jews. Why aren't you complaining about that? (just a thought)

Penny

Brian O'Connor - I agree with your comments.

Having lived in the Middle East, having married into a family who originate from the Middle East (Jewish, but kicked out in the '50's), and having the benefit of a background in psychology, I sometimes get quite exasperated at those who believe it is possible to apply Western logic to Middle Eastern culture.

Time and time again I note people writing in favour of 'peace talks' or of wishing to bring about change in Gaza via Western means - as if it all so easy to accomplish. It is not. If it was all so easy, we wouldn't still be in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our version of winning 'hearts and minds' is not the Middle Eastern way.

We need to get into our heads that our brand of logic and intellect is not in alignment with Fatah or Hamas - or indeed, any other similar organisation.

Students may have good intentions; the intelligentsia may have good intentions - but they will never be realised until they appreciate the psycholgical make-up and philosophies of the Middle East instead of assuming we are all alike.

People may be as anti-Israel as they like but the fact of the matter is that if Israel is ever defeated, the omens for the West are dire.

JJS

Suffolkbor, you're right. But what does that prove? Not much, except that America has changed. Has anyone else?

Paul

Some of the posters here seem to think that because the current Foreign Sec is Jewish that means the FCO can't be anti-semitic. Well it is - FSs come and go but the likes of Laxton are there for decades and he isnt the only one - having worked there for 20+ years I know how the place is riddled with anti-Israel and anti-semitic sentiment. A pro-Israel voice in there is as rare as a euro-sceptic one - both are seen as examples of poor education or borderline insanity.

The FO hates Israel because it is a constant reproach to the appeasement streak that runs a mile wide through the organisation on all issues whether it is Israel, Europe, Iran, and so on back through the years.

Israel's 'no surrender' approach to those who would destroy it should be a constant reminder to us of the FO's utter refusal to fight Britain's corner on any issue and that its default position is to appease and surrender to its enemies - this is what they call a 'nuanced approach' to matters.

davidka

ironic, is it not?, that Hitler had hatched a plan to deport the Jews to Madagascar and it was the British who deported some 1600 next door to Mauritius.

Dave M

"I wonder if the paradox can be successfully resolved in the modern age when people are both trying to erase such divisions in a "multi-cultural world" and yet where the divisions "Jewish" and "Muslim" still stand out."

The multicultural ideology I believe won't work and never has worked. In fact, it would be a mistake to assume multiculturalism hasn't been tried out before and failed before. It (the concept of multiracial societies) is also addressed by Plato in his book The Republic. Carthage was an example of one such society and then the latter day Roman Empire from around 200 A.D. Still, in really simplistic terms I like to give the following example from my fishkeeping days. Goldfish and Carp are both fish, we agree. Oscars and Angelfish are also fish. Does that then mean all fish are the same, identical and able to live together in one whole community? Well, you can try and put carp in a large tank together with goldfish but the day after I think you'll only find one species left! Despite so much psuedo science and wishful thinking Muslims, Jews and Christians will never live together in harmony in the same borders. Races of people are as different from one another as various species of wildlife.

CFB

Precisely, Mel. The right answer is to say to this lunatic, "sod off. You're fired." In other words, we don't tolerate this kind of thing in government employees. Then let him make his living however he may.

Enforcement of these bogus laws only breeds more bogosity.

r

In other words, he responded exactly the same way people of conscience all over the world responded after witnessing Israel's disgusting Nazi barbarities.

Now we are arresting people for showing that they are normal human beings?

Brian O'Connor

Penny wrote February 10th, 2009 11:27pm:

Time and time again I note people writing in favour of 'peace talks' or of wishing to bring about change in Gaza via Western means - as if it all so easy to accomplish.

Yes . . . your phrase "Western means" is of course the key. And again, they are unable or unwilling to recognize that their relativistic Western approach to the world, the one they cling to with a death grip, is not universally accepted.

Seems to me its simply crude and ugly ethnocentrism, nothing more.

Of course, the irony is that, even as they hold their relativistic values to be some sort of moral absolute, these self-same folks would claim that Western culture, which incubated and hatched their values, is not superior to any other!

Go figure . . .

Soosie

Dave M - your fish example is simplistic. Unfortunately, though, it makes 100% sense. More unfortuantely, the liberals and lefties will be jumping up and down shouting 'aparthaid'. That too is overly simplistic. What are we going to do?

Mister B

To claim, like some here, that Britain was “complicit in the holocaust” is a slanderous lie.

Britain limited immigration to Palestine for an obvious reason: it was a small country with a large resident population who felt threatened by Zionism.

In return, Britain was particularly keen to give Jewish refugees a safe haven in the U.K. By 1939, around 90,000 Jews escaped the onset of Nazism in this way, with a particular emphasis on rescuing children from the clutches of the Nazis.

Now consider what David Ben Gurion made of this before throwing around your vile accusations.

“'Were I to know that all German Jewish children could be rescued by transferring them to England and only half by transfer to Palestine, I would opt for the latter.”

That’s right. He “would opt for the latter”, which translates into certain death for half of German Jewish children, on the premise that the other half makes it to Palestine.

Once you have digested this, the true nature of Zionism becomes crystal clear, as does the question of who was really “complicit in the holocaust”.

Rex

I have to say Dave, that your perspective is shocking as it seems to suggest elements of racial superiority, inhuman competitiveness, and racial types and profiles. Although there are of course differences in the races, none of these are as simple as fish who eat one another. And even it at some basic level you were right about that, the wondrous and spiritual nature of the human intelligence and human spirit, whether you believe in God or not, is that it can transcend basic human characteristics. Otherwise we are just animals.

Linda, your reply would be a good one if it could really legitimately be said that a 10th generation dutch American settler could really find a bolthole in the Netherlands. I would suspect that is not even a remote thought in the mind of such a settler, or of the Duth government.

However, your broader point about Jewishness not simply being an internal state, but also an imposed external label, and that this requires an exceptional prudence on the part of the Jewish body whole to have a safe place in the world, that point I will not argue with, because history is against that argument, in a bloody and shocking way.

I only hope that somehow the future is with a more peaceful world, and that some of the more fearful posts on this blog are indeed fantastical.

I just think that if every "race" was trying to do what Israel is trying to do, the world would descend into an even bigger state of war. We already have Basque, Northern Ireland, Kashmir, Palestine, Quebec, Tamils, and a host of others seeking their homeland in conflict with others. By the argument of a homeland, Israel would support each of them ideologically and it should also do so technically. Or is the concept of racial/religious homeland only for Jews?

And p.s. I have included Palestine because the concept is of their own perspective, I know already that a number of the commentators here do not consider the Palestinians a people, and consider them Arabs who belong in "Arab states." Since I accept that Jewishness is also an internal statement, as an outsider, I have to accept that Palestinian, however old or new, is a valid internal state. Since I do not accept as external fact Moses and his relationship with the God of the Jews (fair enough as I'm not Jewish) although I respect that this religious structure is as valid as any other, from the internal perspective.

phil

peters joke is actualy all round the internet but reversed /it was the Israeli speech .no matter it,s just a joke which helps noone ,and peter never has ,nor has ruth .that lady has history here ,probably part of carl,s hockey team

stanley Jerusalem

Dave M - Thank you for your carp - goldfish analogy. As a traditional Jew of East European recent origin I claim carp for my fellow-Jews on the basis that Gefilte Fish can be made principally though not exclusively, with carp.Thus we can prove a cultural heritage connection extending over hundreds of years. The Palestinians, however, have no knowledge of the sacred Gefilte Fish and may therefore be excluded from our deliberations.
As we speak a Committee of Enquiry is being set up in Golders Green to publicise this theory and seek support for an Action Group to represent them at the GLC and the 2012 Olympics in London.

Martin

The Foreign Office is often known as The Camel Corps because of its arabist leanings.
This is a case which decent journalists must raise to a cause celebre. For seriousness it outranks Golliwogs & pets called Mohammed.

phil

Mister B do you reallt think that quoting revisionist writing will be believed on a thread like this /this is the stuff printed on Islamist sites as anyone with a browser can find /now please dont be silly .

Ros Morris

Mister B, you are wrong. Are you saying that 'the Zionists' were complicit in the Holocaust? That's a far more slanderous assertion.

Britain was 'complicit' in the Holocaust in that it would not compromise is efforts to pursue the war in order to digress and save Jews, when it was common knowledge that they were being exterminated from as early as June 1942. There was a lack of 'emotional engagement.'

Asked to receive a delegation from the Board of Deputies in December 1942, Churchill refused, passing it on to Eden. Nothing, apart from denunciations and lip service to the 'tragedy of the Jews' in the House of Commons was considered.

Following the Nazi domination of North Africa, the British were afraid for their friendship with Arab States. They were not about to jeapordise their power over Suez. Pressure was put on Turkey to stop Jewish refugees from reaching Palestine. Those who managed to were to be deported.

One only has to consider what happened to the 'Struma', a ship carrying Jewish Rumanian refugees, seeking to go to Palestine that was refused permission by the British to land there. It was towed out into the Black Sea, having been overpowered by the Turks. It blew up. Of the 750 people on board, only one survived. The British High Commissioner to Palestine, Sir Harold MacMichael, wrote that "...they were nationals of a country at war with Britain, proceeding direct from enemy territory. Palestine was under no obligation towards them."

This was not the only case of 'illegal' ships being turned back to Europe by the British, during and proceeding the war.

Between 60,000 and 70,000 Jews came to Britain between 1933 and 1939 but not without much antagonism from the public who were afraid of 'anti-Jew agitation.'

After September 1939? What is there left to say?

Charles

phil,

Here is a reference:

Yoav Gelber, Zionist Policy and the Fate of European Jewry (1939-42), Yad Vashem Studies, vol.XII, p.199.

Of course, there was a context. I believe he was talking of Zionism's need for young pioneers. You can find out more here, if there is an interest:

http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/ch13.htm

Charles

Ros Morris,

Most refugees heading for Palestine during the war were diverted to Cyprus. In 1942 there were even plans to evacuate Jewish women and children from the Mandate to that island. The fear in Palestine being an invasion from the North and the South (with paratroopers to follow in Cyprus). Fortunately, Monty, the Eighth Army and Stalingrad got in the way. If the British Army had, instead, been fighting insurrections across the Arab lands things could and probably would have been quite different.

Linda Smith

Rex: I wrote "Americans do not need America as a bolt hole because the Americans you list - Jewish, Christian, Atheist, Hindu, Muslim etc - all have other countries in the world which share their religion/culture - except Jews." To which you objected "Your reply would be a good one if it could really legitimately be said that a 10th generation dutch American settler could really find a bolthole in the Netherlands."

Your objection assumes that a 10th generation dutch American settler needs a bolthole. On what basis would a 10th generation American settler need to find a bolthole? On grounds of Dutchness or religion.

1. I see no reason to suppose that Holland would bar anyone of Dutch ancestry from asylum in Holland if they were being persecuted for their Dutch ancestry. There is no historical evidence to support your hypothesis.

2 . Your hypothetical 10th generation dutch American settler would probably be either Protestant or Catholic, in which case there are plenty of countries which would not persecute him for his religious background and would grant asylum.

3. As Holland is fast becoming Islamified, it is doubtful that Holland is going to be a bolthole for Jews, rather a bolt from.If that 10th generation American settler was Jewish, and if he was being persecuted on grounds of religion, his bolthole would be Israel not Holland.

Therefore your objection is without merit.

I have no objection to different groups with a historical and cultural affinity having their own "homelands". The British mandate was partitioned by UN Resolution in 1947 into a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Arabs refused to abide by that Resolution and declared war. Most of the Arab states who are technically at peace with Israel have pragmatic reasons for their state of truce. They face a greater internal danger to their regimes from Islamic fundamentalism than they do from Israel.

PS by the way you forgot the Corsicans, the Armenians, the Welsh and the Scots.

phil

CHARLES please read carefully I am not interested in being addressed by you .nor have I ever been as you are well aware , nor being directed to anti.Semitic sites with references to nazi,s ok?

You enjoy yourself gezunta heit (ask your Jewish friends for a translation-its not rude)you will be able to keep yourself amused for the rest of your life -we will read the truth here whilst you read your nonsense .

stanley Jerusalem

Google Orde Wingate and his Chindits in Palestine during WWII
while the 'Palestinians' were assisting Hitler.
Much thanks we got from Ernie [y'mach sh'mo]Bevin.

Mister B

@ phil

I'm not sure how you would define "revisionist writing" Phil, but the Ben Gurion quote is cited among other places in "Ben Gurion and he the Holocaust", by Israeli historian Shabtai Teveth. And you can find an online review of this including the quote on the New York Times website.

So, unless you believe that Teveth is a revisionist and that the New York Times has gone "islamist", I'm afraid I'll have to disappoint you: Ben Gurion said exactly the words I quoted.

Make of them what you will.

Charles

PHIL, one of your ruder comments by the look of it. I don't know about the website as a whole, but the page reference contains part of a publication by a Jewish Marxist academic (that's why it's on an apparently Marxist website, I guess).

phil

Charles it was meant to be rude, but your comprehension outweighs your `political balance -I am not interested in the rubbish you are able to find in the depths of degrading web sites -ok --- try addressing mister B ,a man it seems of your own persuasion ,but both masquerading as gentle souls -neither of you fool me .just for other readers -if you google the Teveth name you will come up with sites dominated bt Palestinians flags .strange ?

Charles

PHIL, well if you would rather, you can buy Lenni Brenner's (he wrote the website page in question) books from Amazon. Incidentally, Lenni is by no means wholly pro British - but then he is known as 'The World's Grouchiest Marxist', so anti-imperialism is an obligatory sine qua non.

Ros Morris

Charles, I suggest that you read 'Britain and the Jews of Europe 1939-1945' by Bernard Wasserstein. It will tell you all you need to know about Britain's policy towards the Jews during The Holocaust. A shameful episode.

phil

Charles I have to admit you did irritate me with your nonsense at first ,but sorry to tell you ,now you have me laughing ,you are like a naughty little boy who has to be put in the corner for both his and our good -can I suggest you get what,s left of your teeth into norman finklestein ,now there is a man you will truly love ,when you have finished that come back and I will reccomend some more rubbish for you to enjoy .If you are tired of reading I might be able to arrange an interview with Avigdor Lieberman -we could sell tickets for that -hope the weather is good in Windsor ,mind how you go .Now please dont bother me again until you have finished your homework ,there are a lot of intelligent posters I wish to address .

Katie

"Laxton is no minnow."

...And, he'd make one equally distasteful gefilte fish, too.

Katie

So maybe since he's obviously so not kosher, he's a shellfish already?!

Peter

Why shouldn't people be angry with Israel and [certain] Jews who blindly and mindlessly support everything Israel does as if Israel and the Jewish people can do no wrong and everything they do is right?

km

Its what you would expect from a rats nest of quislings ...great nations are always ripped asunder from within.
They slowly corrupt logical and humane policies with their agendas and infiltrate patsy's of their own ilk. Lets face it,the FO is really representing Arabist hegamony , bought and paid for is UKplc and all our so called leaders. The price ....is the destruction of all that makes us a united kingdom. etc etc...we are in the endgame of a very sly and deliberate genocide of our culture and mores....30 pieces of multicultural silver.

Jerry

Re Peter: Your condemnation of Israel is condemnatory of every Jew who does not agree with you. What precisely would you have Israel do, disappear? Would I be guessing correctly that that is your opinion?
/
Israel does what is in the country's interest, protecting her people from a wrathful, vengence-seeking ideology that will sneak up behind you as well and grab you when you least expect it. Your blanket condemnation of Israel does not serve your own long term interests well. And please do not take my word for it; just wait and watch. History is not over.

Sam

Penny. There are no 'Hamas atrocities' I challenge you to name one! It's Israel with the Chemical and Biological weapons that have all been used on the people of Gaza.

You defend a country that has no right to exist. A British imperialist creation that has gone wrong and out of control.

JJ

Tell me Peter, why should Israelis submit to being killed
every day by Palestinian Arab suicide bombers and Hamas suicide bombers and Iranian rockets just because a bunch of Arabs have manhood problems?

And why should people not be angry with those who mindlessly support Arab supremacy, Arab nations, the Islamist desire to set up a worldwide Caliphate, to kill Jews, to behead and bomb their enemies which include Christians who are already being massacred in Islamist countries and Jews who are being attacked 400% more than they have been in the past - by MUSLIMS?

Free speech

"I am glad he is arrested, this guys we trusted to run for the country are nothing but fascist"

So there's nothing fascist about criminalising speech? LOL. Welcome to Britain in 2009 - it sounds like you'll fit in very well.

While I have no sympathy for this man's unhinged rant, it shocks me once again to see someone arrested for saying something offensive about race or religion. The essence of a right to free speech is that the law must protect the right to say things that are offensive; the right to say something uncontroversial isn't a right at all because it doesn't need protecting. And yes, there should be a few restrictions on free speech, but I think the bar should be set very high - specifically inciting violence.

There is a parallel between the use of hate speech laws to arrest this Arabist moron (how many 'Westernist' Arabs are there?) and the use of similar laws in Holland to prosecute Geert Wilders for criticising Islam, and also the only relatively less draconian use of British law to prevent him from attendng the screening of Fitna in the Houe of Lords. If it is wrong for hate speech laws to be used to protect Muslims from censure, the same applies to Israelis and Jews too. Melanie ought to condemn the existence of these disgusting laws at the same time that she rightly condemns the diplomat, or risk seeming selective in her criticism of the Wilders outrage.

Finally, if a multicultural society is so successful, happy, and (as the descriptive convention demands) vibrant, then why do we need laws to stop people criticising other ethnic groups? Just asking.

phil

Sam I wondered where you had been -it was you who wrote for the dandy and beano wasn't it ?but I admire your nerve to challenge Penny who does know what she is talking about -If you get lucky she will begin by telling you of all the Palestinians they have murdered for a start ,you do of course know about the rockets ,the suicide bombers .will that do for a start -er maybe you do not consider them atrocities -over to you Penny .this man is nuts.

Linda Smith

Sam (12 Feb 4:38am) posted: "You defend a country that has no right to exist. A British imperialist creation...."

Israel has every right to exist. It was created by the will of the international community under United Nations Resolution 181 of 29 November 1947. The Arabs refused to comply and declared war.
Hamas's 1988 Charter, which they have not revoked, calls for genocide of world's Jews. Israel can flout as many laws and conventions as they see fit to protect themselves from genocide.

Adam B.

Sam, are you serious?

Kam Khan

In response to Linda Smith. The will of the International Community? Are you being serious? If it was the will of the international community then why did the arabs refuse? Or do we just continue to ignore arab opinion and start imperialistic wars whilst propping up dictators in the middle east. Where next Iran? Or maybe Pakistan?

M. Rowley

I am sure that if I worked for the FCO and went into one, ranting about f***ing Arabs and saying that all Palestinians should be murdered, my feet wouldn't even touch the ground and I would be gone in the blink of an eye. Double standards yet again.

Ann

"Penny. There are no 'Hamas atrocities' I challenge you to name one! It's Israel with the Chemical and Biological weapons that have all been used on the people of Gaza."

Antisemitic lies.

"You defend a country that has no right to exist. A British imperialist creation that has gone wrong and out of control."

Screeching ignorance. Israel existed 2000 years before there was a Britain. Israel is the homeland of the Jews, and has been for 3000 years.

Ann

Shaun is talking nonsense. It's always been the case that a senior public official with such a strong prima facie case against him is suspended. He continues to be paid, but he doesn't continue to represent the public until the case is resolved one way or t'other.

But then, it's hardly a surprise that there are Jew-haters at the FCO.

Frank, Aberdeen UK

I xan;t seem to find coverage of this on the BBC website.
Should I be surprised?

Penny

Sam - I named at least five.

I think you have your facts extremely muddled. It was Fatah who threatened Israel with both biological and chemical warfare in the summer of 2006.

You appear to know so little about these issues that it's almost dangerous.

Penny

Phil - thank you for your kind words.

Actually, I have just read an interview in which a Palestinian journalist - of all people - more or less supports the theory I outlined above.

He was able to leave Gaza - but he does criticise several countries, including the USA and Israel; mostly because they have been stupid in terms of money given to people like Arafat for security measures which was then misused. Or Rice's interference which he believes allowed Hamas to win the election.

He explains how so much money went into Arafat's personal coffers (he even built a casino in Jericho!) and that the leaders of the PLO, Fatah and Hamas are almost like the mafia inasmuch as the wars are financially self-serving. The misappropriated money going to them rather than the welfare of the Gazan people.

It's a very interesting interview, but also incredibly maddening - and sad. If Western people only readjusted their notions of this issue, perhaps the Gazan's would find some way out.

Habibi

Ok - when Arabs do it - no jail, no attention, a White Brit, and its all over for him - prison. Double-standards anyone?

phil

Kam Khan-that indeed was a plaintive plea ,but when the UN vote for the establishment of Israel by a clear majority ,do you think it should be ignored because the Arab world disagrees ? We hope for democracy not anarchy and that is what we are getting now -As for your question on Iran and Pakistan ,the only threats are from them in the case of Iran and the street in the case of Pakistan. I don't know where you live but here in the west we all want to live in peace with everyone .

Linda Smith

In response to Kam Khan (12 Feb 2:19): People, particularly Arabs, are alway bleating on about Israel not complying with UN resolutions. All those hypocrites themselves refuse to comply with the governing UN Resolution partitioning the mandate into Jewish and Arab states.

Yehuda

Charles, why are you so incensed about the plausible assertion that Britain was complicit in the Holocaust?
No one is going to prosecute anyone for this crime since the Jews are dispensible as far as the rest of the world is concerned, as dispensible as are the non-Muslim Darfurians, the non-Arab Kurds, the Christian Arabs of the Middle East et alii, et alii.
Anthony Eden, the Tory, like Ernie Bevin, the socialist, would, I suspect, at least privately, have been delighted to be perceived as ancillary instruments of the final solution of the world's Jewish problem.
These gentlemen's brief was to serve British interests, as they perceived them, not Jewish ones.

Look at what has just happened in the UN Security Council: the Muslim Arab Republic of Lybia, a member in good standing,and the former head of the UN Human Rights Commission, has opposed a non-binding resolution to condemn the genocide in Darfur.
Do you think that the Jews, like the Darfurians, can really count on any one but themselves?

Charles

Yehuda,
I don't think you appreciate the calibre of person who represented and fought for Britain and the Commonwealth during World War 2. I have known many (including some who you might call 'Arabists'). I would need to see better reasons than any I have seen here to question their integrity. And I will continue to respond to any commenters on this site (note: that of a British conservative leaning political magazine) who seek to blame these people for the Holocaust, Israel's problems with its neighbours or any issue/difficulty pertaining to the Jewish people. Regards.

phil

Yehuda you neednt look for reasons for charles -the man has history here and on previous threads, going back a along while -he cloaks himself in reasonable language but visits sites that you and I would be disgusted by -I suggest you let him find his own information ,and he will.shalom chaver

Ann

Israel's problems with its neighbours would have been a little less severe but for the perfidy of the Commonwealth Office. If Charles doesn't like facts, too bad.

Adam B.

Charles, why didn't the RAF drop one single bomb on the death camps? It's a reasonable question.

stanley Jerusalem

Charles - your useless prattle identifies you as a loyal Brit of the class of Unity Mitford or Alf Garnett. Take your pick.

Charles

phil - Freudian Projection?
Ann - ditto
AdamB - Drag the RAF Bomber Command heroes into this, why don't you. The little distraction of an ongoing WORLD war may have been a reason why no precision bombing mission was mounted. Or, it could be the issue of 'precision' - in late '43, I am informed that one bomber in 25 hit within a mile of its aiming point and one in five got to five miles. When bombs landed on a factory or railway yard, only 10% did any real damage. Oh, and the average number of missions for those young flyers? Ten.
stanley Jerusalem - you strike me as a nice old gent, despite your comments, so I won't respond to the insult.

stanley Jerusalem

Charles - When the French/Jewish slave labour in Peenemunde Rocket base [V1 and V2 factory and laboratories] smuggled out the plans of the place to the RAF via the resistance, [sorry no acute accent on my KB], the subsequent air raid flattened everything except the prisoners' quarters, the canteen and the base hospital.
Get your facts straight [from an 'old gent'].

stanley Jerusalem

Oops again
'Nice Old Gent'

Adam B.

Charles, I was not "having a go" at Bomber Command, as you well know, you deliberately missed the point. The idea that we couldn't spare one mission to stop the deaths of millions of people is somewhat ridiculous. Why did the political leadership not see fit to do this? And it was technically feasible - the USAF in fact bombed to industrial complex next to Auschwitz, but not the death camp itself. Following your silly argument, it would be pointless to try to bomb anything at all in the war, a view Bomber Command did not seem to share with you. You seem utterly blind as to why we didn't bomb the death factories, and your excuses are bordering on insane.

Adam B.

Charles, don't misunderstand me, the flyers of the RAF and USAF were and are heroes, worthy of our undying admiration and gratitude. I have relatives who were amongst them. My problem is with the political leadership who could not find it in their hearts to stop the processes of the death camps, which were killing 10,000 people a DAY at their height.

Charles

Stanley - I didn't make up that information, but I don't profess to know much about WW2 precision bombing. However, I do see from the relevant Wikipedia page ('Bombing of Peenemünde in World War II') that these raids involved 600 bombers and 1,800 tons of bombs. Despite this, the raid was thought "non effective" and the V-2 facilities were relocated. To address Adam B's point, I don't see how this type of raid (were it possible in the case of the death camps) would have changed anything. If the enemy intention is to kill large numbers of unarmed people, this can be done in a few days or weeks (ask the Armenians in their quarter of your city - with whom, incidentally, I share some such ancestry. This being one of the reasons why I have an interest in Middle Eastern history). Cheerio for now, old chap.

phil

stanley Jerusalem our "friend" charles needs to be reminded of the many Jewish flyers in the RAF during the war along with those in the navy and the army. ,also of the asshole bevin who was responsible for so many unfulfilled lives of the Jewish people -we need no education from this man .He is a liar ,I G Faben was bombed and that was part of auswitch ,but not the railway lines or the camp-he has displayed his colours here for too long for us not to know what he really wants to say .He has shown his true character for us all to see ,so why bother with him ?We might ask him also what he did on behalf of his country ,my family fought in two world wars so that he could still be here to spew his garbage .

Charles

Adam B - due to the time lags on this blog, I did not see your latest contribution when I posted my response to Stanley. You are asking me about things of which I should have thought you might have had some rudimentary knowledge, given your RAF connections. The Air Ministry did not think that Auschwitz could be bombed for "operational" reasons (Wiki 'Auschwitz bombing debate'). With that in mind, you ARE questioning the integrity and commitment of the RAF, whether you like it or not.

stanley Jerusalem

Charles - Oh I see, you quote from Wikepedia. Then it must be right. The bombing of Peenemunde was very effective but the Germans rebuilt within 6 months. However it gave the South of England in general and my bit of North London in particular a respite while they achieved this. Remember you can write anything you like on Wikepedia. It's just useful but definitely not authoritative.
A propos the Jews in the RAF I have mentioned before on this blog that at the 50th Anniversary celebrations of the end of WWII in Hyde Park in 1995 were to be seen on the saluting dais alongside
H.M.The Queen two ex-Flying Officers of the R.A.F. in full uniform.
The Crown Prince of Luxembourg and
H.E. The President of the State of Israel. No, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem didn't attend.
Phil - Please don't call Ernie Bevin [Ymach Shmo]an asshole. It's much too useful an entity.

stanley Jerusalem

Did it occur to no-one that the bombing of Death Camps by the Allies would have accelerated the Nazis efforts to dispose of their inmates asap?
Just a thought to hold alongside the other that rumours of these places had reached GB in 1942 but the targets chosen by the RAf were prioritised by the War Cabinet which contained, inter alia, such Jew-loving luminaries as Anthony Eden and Ernie Bevin. A stranger pair of bedfellows as ever one could have heard of.

Adam B.

Charles, my problem is with whoever made the decision not to bomb. It wasn't a matter of technicalities, as was demonstrated by bombing IG Farben from bases in Italy (other death camps were even nearer in range), it was a matter of political will. There was simply no political will to stop the killing. Why do you find this so hard to believe?

Charles

Adam B. - Your original question: "Charles, why didn't the RAF drop one single bomb on the death camps? It's a reasonable question." Note: "RAF" not 'why didn't the politicians make the decision not to bomb?'. It's clearly a subject that has been debated by people who are much better informed than myself. You would only need to go to Wikipedia to see that and gain some understanding. So why ask me the question? It looks like a cheap shot and a serious smear rolled into one. As I said earlier, if you knew the calibre of person who fought for Britain and the Commonwealth during WW2 you, too, would appreciate how insulting it sounds. What you should be asking is who originally funded the creation of the camps/industrial complexes? Here is a starting point (if you don't get anywhere with that, come back to me and I will give you another reference): http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar
Stanley Jerusalem - Anthony Eden? Surely not? He was brought down by an Anglo/Israeli enterprise (Suez - Note: Adam, more American shenanigans!). In terms of 'calibre' (sorry to keep repeating that word, not the best is it?) he ticks just about every box I can think of. Oh, and salutations from one North London old(ish) boy to another.

stanley Jerusalem

Charles - Salutations accepted and reciprocated. Eden was a dyed-in-the-wool anti-semite for his entire life. His commuppance was certainly the Suez Affair in 56 but only because after successfuly suduing and occupying the area the USA came down like a ton of bricks on the French, the Brits and the Israelis for not giving due diligence to the saving of Egypt's face on the World stage.This happened again to the Israelis at the gates of Cairo in 67 and 73 when the Yanks put the Khybosh on further Israeli military action.Saving face is an unbelievably important factor in the psyche of an Oriental or a Levantine and in order to 'negotiate' with him it is a sine qua non that he retain his apparent integrity, though his armies lie tatters.

Adam B.

Charles, there was no cheap shot, my post was clearly not aimed at the flyers of the RAF. I asked you the question because you seem to suggest there isn't a problem with the lack of allied action to stop, or hinder, the machinery of the Holocaust, and you presented a load of hollow excuses for this lack of action. It troubles me that this doesn't seem to bother you at all - you seem completely indifferent.

As for Suez, this was an example of British and French deception, with Israel as the fall guy. Hardly a proud moment in our history.

Ann

I don't think Israel was the 'fall guy'. Israel achieved its aim, which was to deter further aggression by Egypt, mainly from Gaza. It worked for 11 years. There was never any intention on Israel's part to hold on to the Sinai for good.

And after all, Eden did get his comeuppance, which was the icing on the cake.

As to Charles' prattling (Freudian projection? I doubt that he even knows what that means) - he does seem to have a serious problem with facts that conflict with his pet theories. But then, he bases his theories on Wikipedia ... shudder.

Charles

Adam B. - I cannot believe you are pursuing this point. You seem to think it's okay for Adam B to sling mud at the RAF, Churchill or whoever else was involved in planning wartime air raids. And why do you expect me to answer your accusatory questions? If I made your insinuations to a member of my family who actually was a WW2 pilot he would probably deck me and quite rightly. And what's all this about "hollow excuses"? I gave you some useful links and some information about what 'precision bombing' meant in those days, ie. not how one might interpret the term today, and that was all. Taking this discussion any further just seems improper to me, so I won't be making additional comment.

Charles

Ann - stick to the one point one-liners, they're your forte. Anything more than two lines and it 's just ordinary (though not as dire as phil's drivel, I will concede).

Adam B.

Yes Charles I was right - you are indifferent.

Ronnie

With regard to the allies' failure to destroy the Nazi camps' machinery and infrastructure, I think it is a point well worth discussing.

I don't see any reason to look closely at the RAF on this, they follow orders just like everyone else.

Perhaps a more useful point to consider is the negative effect that transporting all those people around Europe actually had on the Nazi war effort.

It is inconcievable, to me, that allied intelligence knew nothing of the massive and complex transportation, by rail, of people around the continent. In addition, I don't think it would be too difficult to work out what was happening to them. So many were taken in to the camps but none were being taken out.

It would also be clear to military planners at the highest levels that what these many trains were not doing was transporting men and materials to the front line, particularly the eastern front at that time.

I make no accusations here, I simply suggest that those planning the prosecution of the war may have thought it better to allow the Nazis to continue to dilute their war effort by prosecuting the 'final solution' to the detriment of their front line effort in Russia.

phil

charles ,you keep saying bye bye but as usual we cant trust your word-
you say --
"If I made your insinuations to a member of my family who actually was a WW2 pilot he would probably deck me and quite rightly."PLEASE DO,you deserve it- nobody has blamed the pilots they bravely went where they were told -I see by your childish insult that I actually got to you ,so I will accept it happily-you know I understand you !

Suffolkbor

My favourite comment made about Anthony Eden was made, I believe by Nikita Khruschev .
Hearing of Edens ill health at the time of the Suez crisis he remarked " Mr. Eden is unwell ,
I believe that he has a blockage in his canal ".

stanley Jerusalem

Kruschev was lousy at stand-up. He even threw his shoe at one artist.

Neil Craig

I'm not all that keen on laws to arrest anybody for racial or religious bias but if we have them he should certainly have been arrested on the primary charge - racial hatred - rather than the more slippery religious one.

Of course these are the same people who bombed hositals to help the KLA engage in genocide, the kidanp & sale as sex slaves of children & the kidnap & dissection of Serb teenagers to provide organs for Europe's "great & good". To be surprised at finding a Nazi among the FCO scum would be like being surprised at finding water in the sea.