Britain capitulates to terror

Adrian Campbell

This ban on Geert Wilders is simply unbelievable and puts the UK into a new dark age. Does the government no longer support freedom of speech and the fight against the fascists and hate mongers?

Augustus

Obviously, the best course of action now is for a British Geert Wilders to emerge. And, hopefully, also be elected to parliament.

I understand that there is also going to be a mass general strike in Holland later this month in relation to his facing trial. The ordinary working man as well as the higher echelons and shop-keeping class are behind him. It would also serve this government right if the whole of indigenous Europe were to boycott British products (of which there is already talk in Holland). Britain is no longer seen as a democracy and is now a laughing stock over there.

an ex-apprentice

Dear Melanie,

The Lords were in the process of falling over themselves to prove they had not meekly submitted to Ahmed's threats. Lord Pearson, in a press release announcing the new date for Wilders visit, said that Ahmed's threats were nothing to do with the earlier cancellation, which was "in order for consultations to take place on freedom of speech". So reassuring that members of our senior legislative house need to consult on one of our most basic and important freedoms.

Now Straw tramples all over all that, implies that the Lords are complicit in delivering a threat to public security and "harmony", and actually declares a fellow parliamentarian persona non grata because the man accepts an invitation from the House of Lords to come and discuss Islam.

Straw was the most incompetent Home Secretary in living memory and the most embarassingly, excruciatingly obsequious Foreign Secretary we have ever had the misfortune to possess. A man who raised kow-towing and forelock touching to a fine art. But this is his finest hour in a lifetime that offers immense competition. His message is clear. Islam cannot be criticised. By his action Straw delivers our subjugation to Sharia by stealth. Our freedom suffers the death of a thousand tiny, seemingly insignificant, cuts.

Ahmed will no doubt be gloating again in the Pakistani newspapers that he has won a great victory for muslims everywhere. And he'll be right, won't he?

zoltix

This is a defining moment in the relationship between government and the islamic threat.

I have already contacted my constituency MP, Iain Duncan Smith. This is the least we can all do.
And we should all watch and note who stands where on this.

Joe Strummer

Let me get this right. The Government won't allow the visit of Geert Wilders to London, a man who doesn't threaten violence against anyone, but the same city has before allowed the visit of the gruesome twosome of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness who glorified in the IRA terrorist murderers who often targeted London and slaughtered its citizens with lethal bombs ?

This Wilders capitulation isn't just appeasement to Muslim extremism, it is open cowardice.

Rebel Saint

I despair.

Combined with the news that the CofE have banned them, this all makes good reading for the BNP.

Mark

That's only part of your problems Melanie; I just read that Britain will air adds on Pakistani TV pleading Muslim extremists "not to attack Britain".........
How pathetic is that?
If Churchill needs a new gravesite; perhaps another country might be more suitable?

marksany

Disgraceful, this Govt is bereft of justice. I thought under the EU there was guaranteed freedom of movement for citizens?

Brian Moshe

Melanie, you have with your usual incisive clarity, eloquently and soberly summed up this watershed moment of utter capitulation. Gert Wilders is a brave and truth-seeking Dutch MP and it is outrageous that any democratically elected MP in an EU parliament is refused admittance to Britain when he is here in Britain's interest and at the invitation of the House of Lords.

It isn't going to be as heart-breaking to say goodbye to England in the not too distant future as I thought it would be.

A few minutes ago on the US BBC channel TV news programme I was astonished to see Lindsay Hilsum of Channel 4 News, she was reporting from Iran on the 30th anniversary of the Islamic Revolution, and of course she was wearing her trademark hijab (all it needed was Jon Snow in one of his Iranian no-tie, no-collar white shirts, but thankfully he didn't materialise) as she stood smiling at the camera and coquettishly elucidating what she said was happening in the background. It was President Ahmadenjad on a platform in the background addressing the contemporary Iranian equivalent of a Nuremburg rally, but with no subtitles (which made me rather suspicious).

I haven't seen Lindsay Hilsum looking and sounding so visibly excited since she reported the Hamas election win live from Gaza on C4 News a while ago.

If there was anything about Gert Wilders in the programme I missed it, but didn't catch all of the programme unfortunately. I'll watch some other US news channels later and see what the US media make of it if they bother to report it.

Dan Collins

Britain suffers from abused spouse syndrome. I'm sorry, Melanie.

Scott

What an outrage! My family left England nearly 400 years ago for Virginia. I was always proud of my ancestry, but I am ashamed of England today.

Nehama

The Mother of Parliaments has gone senile! One of the "fundamentals interests of society" is free-speech, yet it is this governement that poses a "genuine, present and ... serious" threat to that, not Wilders.

d1carter

God Save the UK. I will pray for you.

Winston Smith

This just goes to show now that the House of Lords and in fact the House of Commons is under the control of Lord Nazir Ahmed. It seems that when he says jump they all do.

They have not allowed Geert in for a few reasons:

1. The police know there are thousands of terrorist cells in the UK. If they decided to explode all at once, they'll shut down the UK. Think about all the terrorist cells all over the UK? You may be thinking yeah but the police have them covered - WRONG. Who's going to look after the Muslims when they go for a long stroll with their "Kill the Kufar" banners - all over British Cities? We've already seen the police running backwards for a mile after they lost control of the Pro Palestine march weeks ago in London. And where's our Army? Well they're conveniently tucked away in an un-winnable war in Afghanistan and Iraq, fighting against the very same ideology that the government is banning Wilders from coming into the UK to tell the British people all about. Oh the irony of it all.

2.Ever heard of Sharia Finance? Well Britain's Islamic finance sector is bigger than Pakistan's. It means that the government is going to lick Islam's posterior in order to not lose it. If they allow in Wilders they will lose the finance. It's pathetic really. They are completely incapable of seeing that Sharia is laying down the foundation of Islamisation in the UK. They are also completely blind to not see that the Islamic Finance is funding the Taliban and Islamist militia groups all over the World. They are selling their country out to get votes, to keep them sticking their snouts in the trough of Parliament corruption and greed!

What do we do? Shall we all just start praying to Allah five times a day and making sure our women are covered up fully? It would mean removing almost all of the National Gallery pictures, closing all the pubs down, getting rid of pigs. No? Well unless someone does something to wake the people up to Islamisation then you;d better start doing just this.

anglicus

Geez, your quick of the mark there Melanie. It's not on the front page of any daily papers. Of course it's OK to have Muslims rampaging up and down Whitehall basically saying death to all non-believers. I despair of this country.

Brian O'Connor

Wretchard suggests that maybe it is Britain, not Israel, that is the canary in the mine . . .

gary ashton

democracy in the uk is dead

Phil

No need for Geert Wilders to speak to the House of Lords. The House of Lords has well made Wilders' point by forbidding him to speak.

Dave M

Yes but Melanie, whatever remnant of backbone that existed in British society was pretty much dead and buried by the end of the Thatcher years. I mean, do you know the Americans gave the Labour Party two choices recently with respect to visas? What the U.S. consular staff wanted to do was to personally interview foreign nationals who held British passports before granting a visa. In other words, racially profile those who were considered more likely to have radical beliefs. After all, the same procedure takes place when football fans travel abroad. It's understandable given the fact so many ethnic Britons have been found to be based in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Faced with this option, New Labour refused to endorse what they deemed racism. "If you want to screen some then you'll have to screen us all!", so to speak. Therefore, the Americans had to opt for an end to the customary easy visa for ALL British citizen. That means old ladies and schoolgirls who wish to visit the U.S. will have to be interviewed before travelling for longer periods. Not only that but those in the know will tell you any idea of a special relationship between the U.S. and U.K. is baloney and died out after the Reagan years. Any special relationship these days is between America and Israel. The Labour Party and Beeb have been found out across the Atlantic as basically bending over backwards to appease radical Muslims. What a pity those Britons who do have guts and backbone have to be judged on the basis of the wimps who currently claim to govern the country. My advice? Turn out the lights when you leave.

Real

It's disgusting. Shame on you Britain!

Lord Cornwallis

++bellyfeel good INGSOC. Comrade O'Brien awaits you in ROOM101.
As much as I love to live in the UK as a non-national, it's time to pack the stuff and leave; maybe I'll get knicked or being denounced at work for voicing my political views... Poor Britain! Goebbels and Hitler laugh in hell about what kind of police state this country became. Reminds me of 1984 and Animal Farm. All animals are equal, except...

Reaction to Closed Minds

This sure looks coordinated with the "please don't hurt us" ads the UK will broadcast on Pakistan TV. Look in the mirror UK - A Clockwork Orange has arrived and maybe worse. But Prez 44 will save the world as Khan gets released from house arrest in Pakistan (free to travel no less), Russia disdains Biden's overture and Iran laughs at the first tv interview overture broadcast into the Middle East (although they are changing tack suddenly and are showing more receptivity to Prez 44 now that the Israeli elections are over). For the first time in my adult life I have the feeling of how it must have been in the mid-1930s when appeasement was the thinking man's solution. Just another lunatic ranting - not to worry.

Australia

Well, I guess this is it. Goodbye old friend. You gave our nation life and now you must pass into history.

Thanks and Rest in Peace.

Jason from AZ

Brits - I said it here before and I'll say it again: Your constant appeasement to Muslim anger is evidence that you are doomed. A few voices like Melanie's will not save you. Sad to see you go.

Question: How many years before you become the UIK, United Islamic Kingom? Demography, as well as your spineless politicians, are not on your side.

Laurie Lee

Time for everyone in Britain, with half a brain,to march on parliament.............but I'll bet no one does.

Bob Bartlett

Melanie, as usual you are right on the mark. Time for Jews to leave Europe and for traditional Brits to think about when they will fight.

The Doctor

I can see a civil war coming. Left and right now despise each other, there are fault-lines all through British society. If the left and the Muslims don't back off, there will indeed be rivers of blood. That is, if it doesn't happen in Spain first..

HarleyDavidson

The Secretary of State is of the view that your presence in the UK would pose a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat to one of the fundamental interests of society. The Secretary of State is satisfied that your statements about Muslims and their beliefs, as expressed in your film Fitna and elsewhere would threaten community harmony and therefore public security in the UK.
===============================
Hahahahahaha threaten community harmony hahahahahaha! your presence in the UK would pose a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat to one of the fundamental interests of society. Hahahahahahahah, Oh God,hahahahaha!

Could that one fundamental interest possibly be the Muslims? Hahahahahahahahahah! Oh, God, that's funny! Man! Who's the genius who wrote their material?

Lord Ahmed and his 10,000 Muslims! Stop! Stop! I have to catch my breath. I want the video! This is too good! I thought Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, the wacky Iraq's information minister could never be topped but the Brits have somehow managed to make him look like a genius!

Rossini

WTF is Britian becoming.
No longer does it stand up to those who intimidate.

Stewart

This is a crying shame. Lord Ahmed should be severely censured if he made remarks that could be reasonably interpreted as a threat to the House of Lords. Nay he should be expelled from the house for such behaviour, perhaps even charged with treason. This act of cowardice by the government is sadly typical of Labour. Too many of them have northern constituencies with large Muslim populations that could be mobilised against them if they do not bend to their every demand. If the Conservatives can win an election without those constituencies and the Muslim vote in general then once in power they must begin to put organisations such as the MCB and the even more distasteful, more militant minded Muslim organisations back in their boxes.

Nic

The irrationality and cowardice of our politicians is simply breathtaking. I'm ashamed of my country - and not for the reasons those same politicians would like me to be!

Archie

Absolutely scandalous! The spineless judiciary and governing class are completely beneath contempt, and as for that "Lord" Ahmed and his rabble, is it any wonder that the BNP are recruiting in droves?

Dr Junaid Tipu

lets put it like this, when the freedom of one becomes a threat to another, is it justified to speak up?? to highlight issues that are highly confrontational? what i ask is, this man is trying to establish something here, that perhaps all Muslims are terrorists, and their holy book is teaching them so..........
it is indeed a deep insult to people of another religion and indeed will spark outrage..........
lets not forget that humanity demands respect, as they say, give respect and have respect, so do the muslims say, live and let live, if such religious discrimination is propagated by a Dutch MP, then for sure the Dutch govt needs to rethink of what calibre of people it has in its parliament!!!!!!!!!!Besides, this man is already waiting to face a trial as recommended by a Dutch court itself.
long live humanity, boo to hatred preachers

Matt C

The right to criticize religion was one of the fundamental principles of the enlightenment. Will the British government now block people who have criticised or mocked Christian beliefs? There is a whole industry dedicated to that. If Islam really is compatible with Western democracy Muslims must be willing to accept criticism (without necessarily agreeing with it) and humour directed at their faith.

Also, I recently came across a great quote that I think applies to this situation well.

"Here was the new Koran of faith and war: turgid, verbose, shapeless, but pregnant with its message."
- Winston Churchill (equating Adolf Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” to the Koran in his book the “The Gathering Storm”)

Does that make Churchill a ‘serious threat to one of the fundamental interests of society’ too? The UK government seems to have an ideological obsession with globalisation (and a cowardly streak) that is deeply destructive to British society.

WHAT?

He's the Archduke Ferdinand - Brits you all drunk or hiding? You were the beacon of the free world now you wont tolerate reality if it what may 'offend' chronic complainers/killers?

YOU NUTS?

Hanoi Paris Hilton

Well, whaddya expect: "We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the hills, we shall never surrender"?

Been there, done that. Then was then now is now.

TD, Australia

England was once the home of tolerance and freedom of expression. No more, sadly - one of the reasons I left and moved to Australia, where there is very little sympathy for the jihad and its supporters. Over here, pragmatic Australians know how to keep Islamists in line - the message is clear : don't cause trouble, conform or get out! It makes me so sad to see the traditions of a once great nation being compromised like this. When you permit islamic extremists, who espouse an ideology of death to walk the streets unopposed in front of children and protected by police, but at the same time ban those who oppose their views from even entering the country, there is a big problem. RIP UK.

TomTom

The canary in the mine. Wilders shows how far this country has travelled since Book-burning in Bradford in 1987.

Labour is taking the country to the Lubyanka where dissent from the official dogma results in banishment or worse.

Geert Wilders is clearly right - his ideas cannot be debated outside a Dutch election and British legislators cannot be permitted to hear his thoughts because a criminal awaiting sentence threatens violence if he is heard....the Brownshirts are back

Roy

Disgusting! Like the police retreating through the streets in front of Islamics rather than stand their ground and give it to them, the Secretary of State does the same. There appears to be no end to the cowardly behavior at the top. I am ashamed to be associated with such people, however remotely. They betray every idealistic thoughts I ever had for my former homeland.

Ordnance

The best response to this would be for some US Senators who have similiar concerns as Wilders to come over and give the talk - would the House be brave enough to ban representatives from our main ally and the world's only superpower.

Joe Rouse

I am amazed at the cowardice on both sides of the Atlantic. Let's all sit around the camp fire and sing kumbaya with those who would kill us. Maybe it's not cowardice but insanity.

Nev George

Again the double standards of this government don't surprise me. They let in criminals and terrorists but refuse entry to a politician for his political belief's.

Miranda Rose Smith

Notice nobody bans Michael Moore or AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH?

Adam

I can't say i'm in the slightest bit surprised, what with the forced resignaiton of a headmistress for wanting to abolish muslim only assembies, the recent rioting by muslims and their appologists in the UK over the Israeli/ Palestine affair, the suspension of a christian nurse for offering to pray for someone, Ahmed's threats of blocking the houses of parliment with 10,000 muslims, the UK government has spinelessly sold themselves into Dhimmihood! Goodbye UK, hello Eurabia and Londonistan.

The venerable Bede

I hereby predict that some idiot will write with reference to you calling Wilders 'democratically elected' something like: "But weren't Hamas democratically elected? Not so keen to have their views aired, are you, Mel?" or words to that effect (but obviously with all the punctuation wrong) followed by lots of stuff about Zionist conspiracies.
Or have they done it already? Let's wait for the comments to come up and see.
venerablebeads.blogspot.com

cuffleyburgers

It is rare that I agree with you so completely.

I burn with anger when I see the depths to which these people are dragging our poor country, which to be fair seems not to be putting up much of a fight.

EC

I finally got around to watching Geert Wilders FITNA video yesterday. Wilders's concerns were amply illustrated by clips from TV News and from the terrorists' OWN videos. Everyone should have the opportunity to watch this film.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Twelve years of NULAB spin whilst running away from the truth IS ENOUGH!
This Labour government has got to go NOW. They are surely the most venal, morally bankrupt government this country has ever known.

Here's another sobering video:
"What Islam is NOT":

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fb6_1219669061

If you have the time please do watch it.

Peter

Are you the same country that fought so brave against the Nazis? What is wrong with you????

Margaret Muller-Johansson

This film would of be educational to everyone who don't understand the Muslim extremist culture, the government stopped because they are afraid that the massive extremist jihads who live in Britain is going to get angry? let them be angry, we want to see the film, Melanie I think it is a time someone makes a film about the sleep walking government, they lost it,

WE NEED A CHANGE!

Foster

I don't believe in this so-called 'Islamic Terror' threat, but it's entirely understandable to why the Muslims might be unhappy (American and Israeli F16s, for the most part).

And Melanie, please, I realise you're a Mail columnist, but get over yourself and stop stirring the racial hatred pot. London is not Londinistan, and never has been. Leave your Hampstead bunker once in a while and see the world for what it is.

Sharon Klaff

A threat to amass a protest of 10,000 Muslims on the House of Lords can be nothing other than treason. Has this law been repealed? If it has not why has Lord Ahmed not been arrested?

Mike Lawrence

Outrageous, blind and cowardly of our Government!

It is not Geert Wilders presence in our country that would cause unrest in the streets. It is people that would take to the streets in response to his presence and create unrest that would cause unrest in the street.

We are banning the wrong person/people. We are appeasing the aggressors and punishing those that stand up for free speech and freedom of thought.

I seem to remember this being how the Nazi party got established in the early 1930’3 in Germany!

Phil

and not a word about this in MSM like the BBC and The Times ?

Daibhidh MacAdhaimh

What else can we expect from the present political brood? It exists in a cocoon of delusion where it lulls itself to sleep in a cradle of moral cowardice. Bereft of any teeth it is only fit to suckle at the breast of appeasement. Would that we had a government with teeth consisting of meat eating politicians such as Wilders. Even half measure would be infinitely beefier than the present kintergarden.
No wonder, as a hard-bitten Scot, do I now feel as if I'm on the outside looking in at a country that once was? And no wonder I prefer to speak Gaelic now than English. It helps me to disassociate from identifying with a nation that is in principle and moral decline.

Ian Parker

We should, perhaps, be grateful that the BNP is wholly bereft of competent and credible leadership, or they would be sweeping all before them.

Does anybody stand up for Britain and its traditional values?

Roy

As Prince William of Orange was covertly brought into the country to begin the Glorious Revolution in 1688, so should Geert Wilders be invited to England. It's time to bring him and his story to the British mainland and tell it how it is. Choose what the powers-that-be say about it, or how offended they will be.

Venerable Beads

Hopefully, if I get in first and say "So Wilders is democratically elected eh, Mel? So are Hamas and I don't hear you complaining that we don't get to hear their point of view" that will save the usual bunch of halfwits, point-missers and anti-Semites from having to, and they'll be able to take the day off and do something more useful than bother the rest of us with their pearls of wisdom.
Only trying to help.

bigRJ

100% spot on Melanie. Its appalling... Ive had a pom tell me recently that England has "given up on itself" and moved here to Australia recently. Its truly nauseating, and deeply troubling.

Frank Clough

It's getting to be a joke.

It's not often you get to see the slow motion destruction, or should I say slow motion suicide, of a once great civilisation.

It's a bit like watching the Titanic head towards the iceberg. You know what's coming and all you can do is wait for the spectacular crash with bated breath.

The self inflicted demise of the UK has become a spectator sport. A macabre circus. I'm glad I move abroad years ago.

Good luck to all of you still stuck in the UK, you're going to need it.

Gruntson

This is appalling, and at the risk of introducing jargon, albeit a term which readers of this site will be familiar with, it clearly indicates that the Government has descended into dhimmitude. This means that it is acting on behalf of a thuggish minority of fundamentalist Muslims and their apologists at the expense of the majority of law-abiding citizens of this country.

Straw should have this word tattoed to his forehead.

This appeasement of the thuggish Muslim tendancy, and it must be emphasised there will be many Muslims in Britain who will share the dismay expressed on this blog, will damage any hope of long-term community cohesion.

In fact community cohesion on these terms is something which should be resisted constantly and implacably.

Straw should have the word dhimmi tattoed to his forehead, but perhaps this is not necessary as nothing can conceal his craven folly.

Jenny

The irony is simply staggering.

Fitna is, of course, comprised of quotes from The Koran. Mr Wilders' "crime" is to simply quote some of these passages and demonstrate how they have been put into effect by Islamists. So what's in The Koran is his fault and if some people enact exactly what's in The Koran, it's his fault again. This is pure Kafka.

This man is vicariously being held to account for the beliefs of Islam and the actions of some Muslims.

The vicarious blame doesn't stop there. It is Lord Ahmed who explicitly sets out to "threaten community harmony and therefore public security in the UK" by bringing 10,000 Muslims outside Parliament, but who is to blame for this? Why, Geert Wilders (again).

So we have a British government hell-bent on blaming acts of Muslim aggression on non-Muslims.

And they wonder why people turn to the BNP.

Marco

If ever the UK wanted to permanently leave the EU, and join the League of Arab Nations, now seems to be a most opportune time. Ms Phillips, thank you for this very good piece of opinion.

phil

I wonder what the Queen thinks is happening in her land /I grew up a proud ,patriotic and tolerant Brit ,but now I wonder what we are becoming .

Michael Booth

So, what can we do about it? Do we write to the Lord Speaker and demand Lord Ahmed's suspension? Do we complain to our MPs? Do we organise a protest like the Dutch plan to do?

Lucas - Netherlands

Hear, hear! The voice of wisdom speaking. Wilders undoubtedly will be travelling to London and in his wake many TV-crews and reporters, describing how democracy and freedom in the UK died at its borders. It's time to resurrect Sir Churchill, if only this were possible!

Pascal

Maybe we were wrong about our feelings towards England as one of our allies, as a country who will defend the freedom of speech as we know it in the west.

I, just like Lord Pearson, do not agree on banning the qu'ran. But if you give no room for discussion, the consequenses will be far worse.

Anyway, let's start with banning all English football supporters. With the reasons why Wilders is not allowed to get into the country, there are valid reasons enough to do so. But we won't. The good never may suffer under the bad.

Hopefully the Brittish government will see the light in time, but i'm afraid it's already too late.

Kind regards.

Pascal

(excuses for my English, tried my best)

Stefan Petrov

This just proves Wilder's point. Britain is now starting to act like an Islamic state - and already looks like one in many areas. Our cowardly politicians make my blood boil.

Maarten, desperate Dutch, The Netherlands,

Please help us !

wongiranger

As Wilders can't promote his film personally, perhaps you can help by providing a link to it on your site or in your Daily Mail column.

Woody

The above have said it all for me. I'm just utterly speechless at what's going on this so-called democracy.

Maarten, The Netherlands

PLEASE HELP US !
We are suffering from the unjustices done to the Dutch people by our government for many years. After political murders on a Dutch politician (Pim Fortuyn) and a film maker (Theo van Gogh)mr. Wilders has to be on 7x24 security for many years and now even being prosecuted, facilitated by the government. We are hopeless. Don't wait for another William, we wait for the mighty Britain to rescue us.

Gj

Being dutch I'm rather appaled by the refusal of the british government to allow a democraticly elected member of our parliament to even enter the UK. IMO the UK government is betraying the values of the west, Democracy and Freedom of speech.

Geert Wilders will however still go to the UK tommorow and see if he'll be arrested. I'm quite sure that if he'll be arrested all hell breaks loose here in Holland...

What will the response in Britain be If he were to be arrested?

daniel belinfante

Wasn't Al-Qaradawi a regular guest in the UK? If that psychopath is allowed entry into the UK, how can a sane person refuse entry to Wilders, who has never stated anything that isn't written in the koran, or isn't part of history?

Van Dook

Another day closer to Sharia Law

NotaSheep

I find it interesting that the letter does not say whether the Home Office believe that Geert Wilders' statements are true or not, just that they "would threaten community harmony and therefore public security in the UK". I wonder if someone could ask Jacqui Smith what she believes is the truth.

Vision Aforethought

From what I have been reading in various blogs, the UK has been literally 'bought' by Saudi money - possibly saving it from total ruin, so we're capitulating under duress. Ironic, we buy their oil, and they buy our soul.

In business, one is encouraged to have a 5 year plan. IE, where will we be in 5 years, or more precisely, where do we WANT to be?

I wonder where the UK will be i 5 years - and where it WANTS to be?

Truthtrimphs.

Jack Straw is an unprincipled creep who has no compunction about the betrayal of the British people in order to secure his own future.
The fact is that his constituency has one of the highest proportion of Muslims eligible to vote in the country, and it is his first priority to keep his seat.
There should be a mass protest by way of each and every one of us sending a postcard to our MPs in protest at this outrage.
In the final analysis, it is an abrogation of the long held principle of freedom of speech, which is a fundamental tenet of our open and liberal society.

Conservative Pedestrian

To VB: The difference between Wilders' political party and Hamas is that the latter have, in their Charter, the call to destroy a sovereign nation and, by use, in that same Charter, of verses from the Koran glorying in the call to annihilate all Jews.

Andre

wongiranger you can see the film, Fitna, on you tube. Watch and write to your MP to protest the banning of Geert Wilders.

tom

The mind boggles.
Islam is always going to produce a disproportionate reaction,as radicals in sheep's clothing have learned they can silence almost everybody with the accusation of xenophobia.
The question thus becomes, how does one redress the balance so that freedom of speech isn't totally anihalated, nor in the long term Europe's way of life?
Human Rights?
What of Europe's rights?
Are we really fair game?
After all, this is all supposedly done in the name of an intangible. Russell's 'celestial teapot' comes to mind, no?
Great article. Shame more people don't have the courage of their convictions to report what's really happening. TT.

Shakassoc

Can't the film be shown in The Lords without Wilders being personally present?

Blimey

You can view FITNA over at this link to Live Leak at Brussels Journal:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3130

tommy

For those of you who wish to view "Fitna" and make up your own minds.

scroll down to about the halfway mark where you will find fitna the movie
http://tinyurl.com/aeqgg

dominic lennon

I am ashamed to be British. The rise of the Islamists in the UK is directly comparable to the rise of Hitler's Nazis in Germany. First, create a climate of intimidation so good people are afraid to speak out against demonstrable evil. Then ratchet up the pressure step by step, whilst a weak, rudderless government opts for appeasement rather than opposition. Sooner or later the inherent barbarism of Islam as it appears in the 20th century must be confronted.

Izac

Britain should consider a new national flag:
Green (the colour of Islam), a crescent and a miniaturized Union Jack.

Laura

The story broke too late for any of the papers but the Mail is covering it online. Some paper will almost certainly ignore the story completely.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1141622/Diplomatic-row-Jacqui-Smith-bans-Britain-Dutch-MP-planned-anti-Islam-film-House-Lords.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1141806/MELANIE-PHILLIPS-Yes-Wilders-highly-controversial-freedom-dies-ban-addressing-Parliament.html

To the Dutch posters asking for help from Britain, sadly you can forget it. We are right on the frontline here. Click on this next link below to see video footage of the British police retreating from a howling Muslim-dominated mob calling the police ‘kuffar’.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1134042/MELANIE-PHILLIPS-British-police-running-Muslim-demonstrators-Christian-nurse-facing-sack-offering-pray-patient--way-society-dies.html

British countryside marchers tried a peaceful protest a few years ago in a similar area of London and many were beaten and left bleeding by the police. Such are the privileges given to aggressive British Muslims.

Lord Ahmed, the Muslim politician who threatened to bring a mob of 10,000 Muslims to London, is, you guessed it, unelected. Decide for yourself if his Muslim credentials made the government promote him to high office without having to face the voters.

This is how the British Government has gone about turning Britain into the West’s leading dupe for Shariah finance:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1141087/Britains-world-leader-sharia-banking--havent-grasped-sinister-dangerous-implications.html

This is why we’re sunk. This is why they banned Wilders. This is why you can forget Britain.

In World War III, Britain is the equivalent of World War II’s Austria in the Islamonazi project.

gary ashton

its game over for you english people, get out while you can.

Florence Nightingale

The film ,along with several interviews with Wilders,is available on You Tube. Better hurry if you wish to see it-- Jackboots Jacqui may ban that next.
Venerable Beads--any chance you are from the Labour heartland of Jarrow?

Snirp (NL)

You seem to have chosen surrender over freedom. It might seem the right choice now. We made the same choice 55 years ago, but in the end were only too happy to be liberated by you again. I sincerely hope you have made the right choice here, or will be liberated when things turn nasty (insofar they have not already).

p.s. The only dutchman making headlines for planning to go to Britain is Hiddink... Ostrich strategy here?

Nehama

Venerable Beads, speaking of point-missers, you miss the point that Wilders is a democratically elected member of a *state*, a state which, like the UK is a member of the EU at that (that august body that dictates laws to us both equally). Hamas on the other hand may be elected but Gaza is not a state, nor is it a member of any organisation that Britain is also a member of. Furthermore Hamas is designated a terrorist organisation by the EU. There is lies the difference. Get it now, oh ye point-misser?

Patrick Harris

Next time Lord Ahmed shouts "shit", I expect the elevated scum in the House of Lords to reply "how much and what colour?"

tommy

How craven can this government get..
What sort of message does this send to anyone...

"Don't attack us please," UK ads to say on Pakistani TV
read for yourself
http://tinyurl.com/ddsn43

I am not going to comment on this-I am off to be sick

Graham Davis

Appalling absolutely appalling!

Simon

I have written to my local MP, Kenneth Clarke. This is an appalling situation that shows cowardice on the part of our leadership.

Hill

We will fight them.............
Oops, that was more than 60 years ago.
Britain is now waving the white flag of surrender.

Highlander

"If British MPs do not raise hell about this banning order..."

British MPs? Where are the people? Do they have nothing to say about this surrender in their name? Or is their passion now totally reserved for sporting events?

Adam

Oh please! so what this guy was elected democratically, so was Hitler. I've seen the film and it only aim is to forment hatred for muslims. If he is allowed to come here to spread his hatred so should every other racist, bigot, facist and anti-semites.

Cees Flooren

Dear people of England,
I thought we had a submissive government here in The Netherlands, but yours beats everything.
You better start practising kneeling down for your daily prayers towards Mekka.

raymond derek hewitt

looks like the lines are being drawn here with people who want their freedom and lives back against the age old doctrine of our way or no way and a collection of quislings, which is nothing new.whats hard to work out as the swords are drawn from the sheath is who'll side with who in this country as by the looks of it europe is decided.when all this is over and the pale desperate traitors await their fate in a bleak cell how they'll wish they would have backed a different horse when the stakes were so high.all they will be left with are their politically correct slogans ringing in their ears like the echoes of some rally and its zealots long gone.think again while the clock is ticking.

tommy

Adam
QUOTE...
-I've seen the film and it only aim is to forment hatred for muslims....
UNQUOTE
Thanks Adam-
For a while I thought it was islam fomenting hatred against nonmuslims--

johnm

The home office has been taken over by Islamic sympathizers - you know under the multi-culti philosophy - you english are pathetic losers

The Australian Resistance

It's time to get out of the UK. I implore all right thinking brits (and especially Mel) to get out of the failed state of the UK before you are all sent to the gas chambers.... Sounds too harsh? Well give it about 20yrs...

C'mon Britian, i spent 10 amazing years there, i can't believe the true working class blood of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are going to submit to Dhimmitude willingly.

There must be someone with enough guts somewhere to stand up to this Islamification, or...

Sadly, the time for words will be at an end. Soon it will be time to buy food and ammo (as our american brothers and sisters say)!

Pat Viliors

So to sum up, the criterion for a speaker, film or a publication being banned is its liability to cause violent demonstrations on the streets. Well, since such demonstrators are almost always Muslim, this equates to a virtual ban on anything that offends their precious sensibilities. When Jews, Christians, etc are offended, they don't react violently, so murderous threats and hate preached against these people IS permitted; anything anti-Islamic is verboten. It doesn't even matter if the material isn't really anti-Islamic per se (as is the case with 'Fitna'); it has only to be perceived as offensive and it's off limits.

Dan

It seems Wilders is not a saint.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32732_Dutch_MP_Barred_from_Entering_Britain

Alex

So Lord Ahmed threatens the security of the House of Lords and nothing happens. Can you imagine what the reaction of the powers that be would have been if this had been Nick Griffin threatening to turn up with even 100 of his supporters, let alone 10,000, when Ken Livingstone wanted to invite a radical cleric over here. He'd have been thrown in the slammer so fast his head would still be spinning.

Important note - I do not agree with the BNP's policies and find their ideals, manifesto and supporters utterly vile, but for this hypothetical situation, they were the best example to use.

Bill

Time to take down the concrete barriers around Westminster. There are no 'enemies of Islam' inside anymore. They have 'submitted', as meek as lambs. The time may soon be upon us for the people to take action.

Ken

@adam: "..so should every other racist, bigot, facist and anti-semites" .

Don't know about "facists and anti-semites" but "racists and bigots" aplenty have been welcome for years. One-eyed Capt Hook for starters. The list is lengthy.

The Fitna film illustrates the dangers of Islamisation highlighted with selective Koranic texts, it does not "incite" against Muslims rather rails about extremism and frankly so it should. Europe is not (yet) a pre-medieval Arabian desert but I would hesitate on a bet about the future.

Gavin

Arnold Toynbee once said "Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder".

I urge everybody to write to their MPs about this disgraceful, cowardly decision (as I will be doing).

Amanda

It will stop those who want to spread extremism, hatred, and violent messages in our communities from coming to our country

Brian Egdell

It is too easy to blame the British government for an "unprincipled" stance. While it is deplorable that not everyone in the debate can have their voice heard without jeopardising public safety, that is unfortunately where we currently stand. By the way, you missing out on very little in Britain by not hearing what Geert Wilders has to say in your parliament. Here in The Netherlands he succeeds in turning the different groups against each other but he has no practical suggestions whatsoever about how to go about solving the problems. His only concern is to take political advantage from people's fears.

cuffleyburgers

Having no watched the film, it is certainly thought-provoking.

It is well made enough to warrant reasoned debate. To seek to ban discussion of it, in parliament of all places, is beyond belief.

I am even more shocked by his than by the 116 grand rip off.

bill

the brits are not defeated, yet. however, at some point the patriots will have to decide what's more important: their financial security and cozy life style or their country and freedom. if the latter is the answer then they'll hit the streets (encouraging others to do the same) every day - every day - forcing the government and the muzzies to see the light. from my vantage the british government is afraid of whichever group howls the loudest.

Spartan

l would be very surprised if our elected repesentatives took a stand on this. The majority of MP's are no more than toothless eunuchs. They also have the audacity to begin a speech with 'My honourable friend ... blah blah' Honour? ... they don't know the meaning of the word! Appeasement is rife through the House of Commons.

When oh when are we going to get someone to stand up in Parliament and say something like .. 'I am physically sick of the lack of balls in this house ... etc etc' ... and when that apology of a Speaker Michael Martin interupts with 'order order' he gets a reply akin to 'STFU'

Omar

Adam:

Have you ever noticed that virtually EVERY high profile critic of political islam either lives in hiding or requires 24 hour security? We're talking shariah based blasphemy laws, laws against apostasy, laws enforcing gender apartied being imposed RIGHT NOW on European citizens under threat of violence and death. And do you deny that islamists are using the verses alluded to in Fitna to justify the acts shown in Fitna? Of course you don't deny it, because you can't! It's empirically true - as true as the fact that YOUR GOVERNMENT (I assume you're British) has just publically capitulated to terroristic threats originating from within the leadership of your own muslim community.

Spartan

Amanda ... are you deaf, dumb and blind? They're already here.

Omar

Dan:

Mein Kampf is currently banned in the Netherlands under existing law. Wilder's call to "ban the Quran" was an ill advised effort to make people look critically at it as a book with very similar totalitarian tendencies - to see if they could find any real difference between the two. He has since backed off that position and has stated publically that he thinks unfettered free speech is the more desirable social arrangement. He says so here:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/266957

AngloWelshDragon

I am so angry and ashamed I could weep.

When shall we rise up? When shall we stand up and take back our country?

I don't mean just white people, or Christians either. I mean all British people who love this land and share its fundamental values and who don't want to live under a 7th century islamofacist theocracy.

phil

Amanda you are not from the ex mayors office are you ? I think you will find the horse has bolted .

Johnno

"It will stop those who want to spread extremism, hatred, and violent messages in our communities from coming to our country"

Except for the ones already in the mosques, of course.

sobercounsel

Can we make some sort of protest against this lilly-livered surrender to intimidation? How about 10,000 non-muslims marching to Parliament to demand the removal of a lord who thinks he should intimidate a democracy, or the removal of the politician or civil servant who ordered the Dutch MP's exclusion from the UK?

Augustus

Adam- Aren't you turning reason upside down? A freely elected liberal politician (his party is cally the Freedom Party) trades in his personal freedom in order to warn his countrymen about a dangerous ideology, and see countries like Holland and the UK transformed within a few years into cowering apologist entities of Islamification, and anyone who criticises this must keep quiet, yet the Imman preachers of hatred and death are allowed, in your book, to proceed unhindered. You are welcome to accept this evil ideology which has already made itself master among us. Very many others refuse to do so.

William Frysian

"The Life of Brian" was hilarious.
I bet the british government anno 2009 would block any attempt of a new Monty Python-clan to make a movie like "The Life of Mohammed.
Appeasement once again. I thought you always like to think of Winston Churchill as the greatest Briton ever, nowadays more and more believe (especially in the media and the government) that Chamberlain was the greatest one.
Sad really.

Tonym

Goodbye to my England, So long my old friend
Your days are numbered, being brought to an end
To be Scottish, Irish or Welsh that's fine
But don't say you're English, that's way out of line.

The French and the Germans may call themselves such
so may Norwegians, the Swedes and the Dutch
you can say you are Russian or maybe a Dane
But don't say you're English ever again.

At Broadcasting House the word is taboo
In Brussels it's scrapped, in Parliament too
Even schools are affected, staff do as they're told
They must not teach children about England of old.

Writers like Shakespeare, Milton and Shaw
the pupils don't learn about them anymore
How about Agincourt, Hastings, Arnhem or Mons?
When England lost hosts of her very brave sons.

We are not Europeans, how can we be?
Europe is miles away over the sea
We're the English from England, let's all be proud
Stand up and be counted - Shout it out loud !

Let's tell our Government and Brussels too
we’re proud of our heritage and the Red, White and Blue
Fly the flag of Saint George or the Union Jack
let the world know - WE WANT OUR ENGLAND BACK!!!!

all-seeing

These are the first salvos
for Armagedon carefully planned to take place in every country,all over the world, all at once. Only by becoming Islamist will you be spared and only if they don't change their minds with a new reading of the Koran.

You can't win when the rules are constantly changing. So unless we crush them now, while we can, we can atart reciting Allah Hu Akbar!

Vision Aforethought

@Adam: "If he is allowed to come here to spread his hatred so should every other racist, bigot, fascist and anti-semites."

Uhm, they are already here, that's the problem! And many of them are living off the state.

For all it's flaws, the reason the USA is (was?) a beacon of hope is because there, you are expected to become an American and honor the values that go with that privilege. (After winning a green card, I went through the immigration process in 1991 and was very impressed. I understood exactly what was expected of me.)

Here, we seem to be adapting our laws and way of life to every entity. No wonder things are falling apart - there is no datum!

Venerable Beads

Nehama - I would suggest going back and reading what I wrote again, a little more carefully this time.
Now, what was that about point-missers again?

Original Tony

Carl and Ronnie (regular posters on this blog) have been awfully quiet lately! Do you suppose their avid lust for Israel's enemies to succeed has suddenly shocked them by discovering the victory is actually taking place in the UK!! Where are you now Ronnie and Carl??
'One of the fundamental interests to society' now appears NOT to be peace and tranquility but Islam....they are nuLabour's fundamental interest!!
However dear Brits, do not despair, the strike over local jobs for local people has proved the point that eventually the indigenous population of Britain will stand up to protect itself.
This is partially borne out by the fact that a well known Christian pastor recently debated with a Muslim Imman if Muslims will eventually be expelled from Europe and the answer was a clear yes from the Pastor and the Immam!!

KzinKzin

Actually, you British do not need our Wilders ; you have your own Pat Condell.
But perhaps a prophet has no honour in his own country.

mcmrjp

The problem is they great British public don't get to hear these things. They are kept in the dark by the TV and Press, otherwise I am sure thye would react more vocally.

mrangry

I don't know whether to cry or reach for the aussie immigration no?
It would for once be nice to see the Islamist factions (even the Muslim community) reach for an intellectual argument rather than simply threaten anyone who deigns to cause offence by presenting a few unpalatable facts.
And we kowtow to this?

Neil Lee

Well it looks the end of a once great country,well done to all the spineless cretins who have given away everything I was once proud to be a part of.

Jeroen from the Netherlands

UK is banning a member of our parliament because of fear for muslims?
Wilders does critisize the Islam and you can argue whether he does that tastefully (I didn't vote for him) but he never crossed the legal line.
Apparently nowadays the fear in England is bigger than the will to defend the freedom of speech.
I was always a big Englandfan (even spend my honeymoon overthere) but now I think England should be ashamed! Many Dutch people, including myself, are now thinking of boycotting England!

Venerable Beads

Note to self: No more irony.

Nature

While Geert Wilders has been banned, Ibrahim Moussawi on the other hand is very welcomed in Britain; arrived just yesterday. Ibrahim Moussawi who is affiliated with Hezbollah terror organisation was barred from entering Ireland is due to speak in Birmingham tomorrow 12.02.09 at an anti-war rally.

http://www.birminghammail.net/news/birmingham-news/2008/02/29/row-over-anti-war-speaker-at-birmingham-rally-97319-20541272/

Jackie Smith had no problem with the arrival of this terrorist. Despicable.

Augustus

Brian Egdell - "Here in The Netherlands he succeeds in turning the different groups against each other but he has no practical suggestions whatsoever about how to go about solving the problems."

Neither, it seems, does the Dutch Cabinet or any of the other parties. Gouda (noted for its cheese) is terrorised by multiple bands of agressive Moroccan youths. They have absolutely no understanding of norms and values. If you try to apptroach them about their criminal behaviour they attack you. This happens in many towns. How can citizens live like this, in fear of their lives and safety? Wilders just wants to do something about it. Why are his colleagues in parliament so against him? Don't they dare stand up to their immigrants? Holland was not always like this!

Michael Grave

And what role di you think the vile, propagandist, devious, bigoted, extorting, lying, cheating BBC played in this moral degradation?

James Christie

I watched Geert Wilders on you tube. He is a very able speaker and has very solid arguments. He says that people in Europe are getting angry. I'd just wish more people in this country would get hopping mad at this appeasement, particularly of our political elite. Or is it to late.

Bill

Goodbye Free Speech.
Goodbye Democratic values.
I despair of my country.
If I were younger, I would leave at the first opportunity. Unfortunately I am too old to be accepted in those few countries that still love freedom and have not yet become havens for Islam.
Hopefully I will not live to see the UK become an Islamic republic due to the craven cowardice and abandonment of British values as shown by this Government.

Stuart

Britain, the new islamic state where democracy is a long lost joke.

Simon

Let's get my position straight here. I do not agree with all of Geert Wilders views. For example I do not believe banning a "holy text" will help anything and that is censorship itself. What I object to is the banning of an individual from our country because a group threatens violence if he's allowed to talk to our parliament.

Freedom of speech is our fundamental right and if we're not allowed to criticise people's beliefs then democracy is at an end.

To berate someone's political beliefs is fine but not their religious ones? Why?

Norman

I've just emailed my MP to ask that he voice his support for re-instating Geert Wilders' visit.

Erik ~The Netherlands

Wilders will visit Britain tomorrow together with a few news-stations, i'm curious on whether your government arrests him (Which will spark an uproar over here in holland) or allow him to show Fitna in the house of lords. Either way, allowing Lord Ahmed to say that is a sign of democracy having died.

Michael Tripper

Well I guess standing up to Hitler was a one off and the Government wants a do over and Appease the fascists this time.

ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING. ENGLAND IS OVER.

Erik ~The Netherlands

Wilders will visit Britain tomorrow together with a few news-stations, i'm curious on whether your government arrests him (Which will spark an uproar over here in holland) or allow him to show Fitna in the house of lords. Either way, allowing Lord Ahmed to say that is a sign of democracy having died.

Tony M

I am completely stunned and outraged by this decision. It flys in the face of democracy and freedom of expression. I cannot comprehend how an alleged democratically elected government can possibly justify this. I may or may not agree with what Mr Wilders has to say but that is not the issue. The issue here is that this government hasn't the backbone to allow anyone to speak who may present a challenge to their fundamentally flawed policy of favouring religious priviledge.

THX1138

Geert Wilders is no champion of free speech either a man who calls for a ban on the Koran is hardly in a strong position to complain when other want to ban his work.

The response of Dutch Muslims to his film last year was exemplary: most said nothing at all And when a small Dutch Muslim TV station offered to broadcast the film, after all other stations had refused, the grand champion of free speech resolutely turned the offer down.

Fergus Pickering

Watch the film everybody. Watch the film. Googling fitna will get you there. Jack Straw can stop the man getting into this country but he can't stop us WATCHING THE FILM. So go on, all of you good people. WATCH THE FILM.

David Lindsay

It may or may not be right to ban Geert Wilders from this country; he is in the Pim Fortuyn tradition of opposing Islam so that the Netherlands can remain a drug-addled, whore-mongering country where the age of consent is 12, contrary to the wishes of its general public either in the staunchly Protestant north or in the devoutly Catholic south.

That is not any West that I for one wish to defend. But then, it is not in fact the West at all. It is only the most extreme, and in that sense logically consistent, manifestation of the pseudo-West proclaimed by the neoconservative movement (or what's left of it these days).

But this ban does at least show that such a ban is possible, even against an EU citizen, never mind against anyone else. So, yes, by all means ban Islamists. Ban Avigdor Lieberman and the members of his revolting party, just as we banned Meir Kahane when he was alive.

And since we rightly ban David Duke, who has never really mattered but whom it is still right to keep out, so we should ban the signatories to the Project for the New American Century, and the Patrons of the Henry Jackson Society. So we should ban those American and other ecclesiastics who have expressed racist views about Africans and others who do not share their liberal sexual morality. And so we should ban Hans Küng, whose disparagement of the late Pope John Paul II’s Polishness made and make them the authentic voice of the age-old Teutonic racism against the Slavs; Küng only gets away with it because he is Swiss.

Neither the neocons, nor the liberal-racists, nor Küng really matter any more. But that is not the point. They could still do damage, and we do not want them here. Like the Islamists and like Yisrael Beitenu, let them be excluded from the United Kingdom. Their presence would most certainly not be, and periodically is not, conducive to the public good.

Desi

If Brits do not wake up now it is not very long we can see British Queen in Veil/Burqa.

Patrick Henry

Please Britain, find your Arthur, your Churchill, even your Thatcher. Believe in yourself again.

G-d Westler

I would like to quote from Lion Feuchtwanger's prophetic 1934 novel Die Oppermanns. Today we face the ascension of Islam not National Socialism. This quote is true for today as it was 75 years ago. May G-d help and guide us:

..."This country is about to give birth to a great new type of humanity. We have the enormous luck to be present at the birth of this gigantic embryo and to hear the first babblings of the noble monster...I am no longer young. I am on the downgrade. But in spite of the increasing numbness of my years. I would rush here from afar to see, at first range, the development of this type. No one could rob me of that privilege. I envy you, my dear friend, for being able to experience this great drama in the first freshness of your eager and vital youth."

Bill M

Bill,

"The time may soon be upon us for the people to take action."

The government won't. The people must. There is no option if the U.K. is to save itself.

Scipio

Britain can only raise its anger and bile against Israel - a nation that is no threat to her.

Juliana

Lord Ahmed should be disrobed and kicked out of the Lords. Can you imagine what would happen if a Jewish Peer - and there are many - threatened to send an army (for that is what it would effectively be) of 10,000 Jews to march on Parliament if anyone came here to speak up for Palestine ?
What IS it about Muslims that makes our government feel the need not to give them a full hearing and equality but to give them exclusivity and priority ? Why exactly are they kowtowed to and why is this assault on free speech being allowed in what is still supposed to be a Democracy ?
I wish someone would explain why Muslims appear to be given rights over and above everyone else.

Jay

I wouldn't be surprised to see Lord Ahmed and AQ Khan celebrating each other for job well done. Am a new Brit (from Philippines) but left UK, still proud to be Brit but it's gettin to be pretty scary to be in UK. Hope the rightist will take over and I mean it not withstanding I come from the minority.

Susan Hill

I vote the Queen invites Wilders to make a public visit and stay at Buckingham Palace. I doubt if even Lord Ahmed would dare say he`d round up his 10,000 muslims to march on that.

DaavidPrhys

Those who ignore the Islamic Threat, do so at their own peril. I feel for the people of England, I really do...

JonB

How are readers of The Times supposed to learn about this?

phil

Controversial cleric Dr Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, in an exclusive interview for Newsnight (BBC TWO, Wednesday 7 July 2004 ), claims that Islam justifies suicide bombings.etc etc and he was invited to London by red ken
Is this allowable in our country ? I deplore any form of racism but if this man can say that ,and it is only an extract from a vile interview,what grounds has our government for banning wilders ? Personally I would rather neither were invited to speak here ,but lets not forget one is glorifying attacks and the other is merely highlighting them -our government seems to have lost touch with its citizens ,you only have to read the overwhelming consensus in all the newspapers to see that -yes even the guardian and independent !

ahad ha'amoratsim

there's some corner of a foreign field that is for ever England. But where?

Joe

This entire debate brings into the open an increasingly important and vital debate that concerns freedom of speech to all citizens of a Western nation to air their opinion, may it be racist, sensationalist opinions concerning other faiths or the ignorant and fanatical devotion to a dangerously misinterpreted faith. It probably leads us to the conclusion that the society we live in should be the bold position to disagree with what somebody is saying whilst defending their right to say it. It causes insurmountable problems but democracy comes at a price. I cannot fail to see the clear and malicious racial undertones of some of the above comments though, and WIlders is delusionally xenophonbic to labell The Koran a terrorist novel. Indeed, the disgusting interperatations of some 'commandments' definately cause severe problems but not all Muslims interperet their sacred book the same manner it is forced onto populations in the Middle East (more as an ultimate form of social control than anything else) but to labell the Muslim religion as he did is ingnorant and appauling, Wilders might as well cite the right wing Christian sects in his conquest against Christian values. I belive this debate will at least encourage discussion about free speech and, even if it condemms that very free speech, allow us to see where the boundaries are.

vimto

'Fitna' ending:

"Protect out Freedoms"

UK Government answers: "NO!"

Andrea Z.

I am appalled at the utter cowardice and naivete exhibited by the UK government. This mindless policy of appeasement to Muslims may work in the short term, but in the long run, we will lose all.

Augustus

Although the Dutch for 'England' is 'Engeland', England literally translated means 'horrid land'. Funny that!
Anyway, He's definitely coming. Wilders is flying West. He's leaving Schiphol airport on flight BS 666 at 13.59 CET and arriving at Heathrow at 13.09 GMT. He will have a parcel with him which may cause some consternation with Customs.

Bailey

It seems that Mr. Wilders is planning on showing up anyway....

DEFIANT WILDERS TO TRAVEL TO BRITAIN DESPITE BAN

The Hague - PVV leader Geert Wilders has conclusively decided to travel to Great Britain this Thursday. This was made public by the member of Parliament this Wednesday, one day after the British government had denied him access to the country.

Last Tuesday, Wilders hadn't been entirely sure whether he should confront the British authorities. But by now, he is quite determined simply to take the plane to Great Britain. "We'll see whether they put the handcuffs on me," he already said Tuesday.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024799.php#respond

YOU GO GERT!

David

I applaud the UK. And just to remind Adrian Campbell, the UK is fighting racists, bigots, fascists, and war mongers by banning them from the country. Any elicit justification to conflate an entire minority as 'nazi', easily invites terror, regardless if you agree or disagree.

Jenny

I'm an American, of indigenous, Irish and English ancestry, and would like to request that the members of the House of Lords watch Fitna, even if they have to do so privately, and to contemplate, in all seriousness what they see in it. I have watched it online. It is not Mr. Wilders making allegations, but the words of the Islamic extremists that are being defended by Islamic extremists in Britain, as well as some who feign a moderate stance. Those who seek to prevent Fitna being shown and denying Mr. Wilders the ability to attend the House of Lords to discuss this, are the true threats to peace and justice in Britain and in fact the world. They do not serve the interests of any of the citizens of Great Britan, most especially, they do not serve the interests of moderate Muslims who wish to live in peace and justice.

If the Lords wish to ignore the great legacy of their ancestors, prefer to prop up those anti-historians who seek to diminish the greater legacy of Britain's past.. the fight for true civil rights, freedoms, so much that has been a light to the rest of the world, then at the very least, I ask that they consider the future that their children and grandchildren will inhabit. Do they want them to live free, or be forced to knuckle under to totalitarianism? I can guarantee that no amount of personal power or wealth, no stature given by title will be enough to protect them. The only thing that will, will be the Lords showing that they have some of the backbone and character that their forebears displayed on so many occasions in the past.

Shalom

Great move. Wilders is nothing but a hate-mongering, right-wing zionist who has no knowledge on Islam. If Luis Farakhan and Omar Bakri are banned from entering the UK, why should there be an exception for someone who is facing charges of hate even in his own country.

R Mather

The British establishment is spineless! Appeasing the Muslim community like this - while allowing Hamas supporters in Britain to defame Israel - is a sign of things to come.

Omar

Simon and THX1138:

One more time. . . . :

Mein Kampf is currently banned in the Netherlands under existing law. Wilder's call to "ban the Quran" was an effort to make people look critically at it as a book with very similar totalitarian tendencies. He has since backed off that position and has stated publically that he thinks unfettered free speech is the more desirable social arrangement.

He says so RIGHT HERE:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/266957

Pat Viliors

Richard Dawkins feels strongly enough about atheism to promote it on London buses - perhaps we should address the nation by taking out ads in the national press advising the public of the YouTube address to watch Fitna.
Personally I would add, 'while you're on YouTube, search for 'Hamas' and see what really went on in Gaza. Watch and wonder how the BBC somehow missed all this stuff. See Hamas firing from schools and transporting their soldiers in ambulances. I wonder how long it'll be before Jacqui Smith closes down this source too?

Omar

Ahad ha'amoratsim:

Ha! Where indeed . . .?

Robert Birks

There are many of us who still consider Great Britain to be a bulwark of democracy and free speech...but what is happening over there? We in Canada are having a spirited discussion about the misuse of our "Human Rights (hah!) Commissions" by muslim activists, but for your parliament to allow itself to be threatened by militant thugs objecting to the freedom of expression, well, that's just unconscionable.

John Philipa

I find out the government was giving letters to the parents of muslim kids in the school so they can go to the local concerts, they say they want the priority to be parents from Bangladesh, Somalia, Turkish etc, why only those parents? how about other British parents like the Irish, English, Jamaica etc, why can't they go the local concerts for free like the other ones? they are the ones who understand the theatre culture and the language better? the government is working hard lately to introduce new things like this to the communities, I don't understand a conservative religious families should be going to a concerts but not the westerners who appreciate more and go the same schools? at the end non of those parents will show up I know they did things like that in the past, the muslim families who live the housing Estates around the corner of where the theatres, cinemas, cafes, health centers are not into going places like that, to them it is something associated with the western society and it is kind of bad, like a ballet and things like that, but the government is trying hard, they think this is the best way to integrate and learn the English language, they are spending and wasting the tax payers money with the wrong kind of things

HarleyDavidson

Here are the facts which I doubt will ever make this blog. This is merely a one day affair, period! Nothing will be done what so ever. All the huffing and puffing evident here is just that, huffing and puffing.
No mainstream Brit media will bother to mention anything. Your politicians will wisely say nothing knowing full well this will be all over in a day or so.

Meanwhile your government is running ads over there in Pakistan even as I write saying; "Please don't hurt me! Please don't hurt me!"

If that doesn't say it all there is nothing anyone can possibly say anymore to highlight how pathetic this Britain has become.

Vicky

Oh give me a break! The guy's a fascist, but he's "your" fascist.
"Giving in to Islam" - what a whinge!

Cara C

We are headed for a true Dark Ages of fundamentalist Muslim domination unless the brave people of the West rise up and demand that their leaders protect Western culture and Western values.

Do we want a culture in which girls are stoned to death as punishment for being raped? No? Then NOW is the time to fight.

It is unacceptable to attempt to silence a man who is telling us the truth about the dangers we face.

Bailey

@THX1138

Mr. Wilders was only pointing out the hypocrisy or double standard of the Dutch Parliment by pointing out the 'hate speech' in the Koran. This should not be allowed if they were consistant in their application of Dutch Law.

Mosquito

A shameful and utterly craven surrender to intimidation and bullying. This government cannot go soon enough in my opinion - it is leading our once great country to disaster and humiliation in virtually every area of national life.

Bailey

@David

Anybody who disagrees with anybody else is a Nazi, a racist, bigot, or an Islamophobe these days.

Those words are meaningless.

Bob

I watched Fitna and could find nothing derogatory or inflammatory other than what was said or actioned by radical Islamists.Clearly the British Establishment is running scared of an extreme faith,that believes in the Koran (the breath of God) above all else.But as Prof Dawkins has eloquently pointed out,no one can prove or disprove the almighty's existence(or likely ever will),rendering Islam's threatening actions and rhetoric and Europe's largely spineless responses,totally redundant.Pity no one can explain this to them without getting into a fight.But in the final analysis,I guess we only have ourselves to blame?

Helen

THX1138, February 11th, 2009 4:57pm, says: “Geert Wilders is no champion of free speech either a man who calls for a ban on the Koran is hardly in a strong position to complain when other want to ban his work.”

And what is his work comprised of? Why, merely quotations from The Koran. This is the truth people like THX1138 are trying to hide.

The reason Wilders wants The Koran banned is because, as with the ban on Mein Kampf in the Netherlands, it is because he believes freedom of speech reaches its limits at incitement to violence.

Why should Muslims be allowed to say: “Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate,” when we all know that if anyone replaced the word unbelievers with the word Muslims in a passage like that (there are many similar in The Koran) they would be arrested and charged with a criminal offence?

What you have there, THX1138, is freedom of speech for one group of society and a gagging order on the rest of us. That’s how Islam wants it. That’s why this religion invented the concept of dhimmitude: the privileging of Muslims over everyone else.

As to this drivel: “The response of Dutch Muslims to his film last year was exemplary” - yes, to the extent that Muslim death threats levelled against him went through the roof. He lives under 24-hour police guard; the only threat to his life coming from followers of the ‘religion of peace’.

Patrick

I have viewed his film and can say it is a woefully inaccurate, skewed, distorted piece of bile, from a minority attention-seeking, z-list politician-cum-producer who has zero knowledge of Islam and muslims. It is the equivalent to making a film on some of the violent aspects of Christianity derived from the Old Testament and the New Testament, or the Torah.

And I fail to see the connection to the illegally occupied, apartheid regime in Palestine, run by gun-toting, American-Chinnok flying Israeli's that massacre entire villages. Some people on this forum are ignorant or in a blatant position of denial!

Darren P

You can bully Jews in this country, but you can't say anything against Islam. This government is appeasing the extremists & yet they have the nerve to say that they support community cohesion. Backdoor apartheid more like.

Wyn

Time to make a stand on this. I hope Wilders attempts to enter the UK tomorrow and I hope there is plenty of media coverage to show the slumbering masses what is really going on here.There has to be a point at which we say "enough is enough" and at which we draw a line and demand that there be no more concessions to bully boy tactics. Without that we are doomed. Where are our leaders?

Michael B

Tergiversators of the world, courageously, unite!!!

The set of discussions and contretemps surrounding Geert Wilders is telling of a set of assumptions and social/political dogmas in the west that are FAR too resistant to probative dialog and critique. Hence the presumption expressed by many - that Wilders fails to be a free speech "absolutist" and thus is deserving of effectively being excommunicated or severely marginalized from the Elect, the Anointed - is additionally revealing of a profound incuriousness and self-satisfaction, a degree of hypocrisy as well. Likewise again, instead of sober minded self-examination and seriousness, a gust of indignant harrumphs can be expected if very much backbone is evidenced in defending Wilders ability to more openly dialog.

E.g., Little Green Football's (LGF, Charles Johnson) take on the matter is reflective of this profoundly incurious, distorted and decidedly mendacious reading of Geert Wilder's interests. (It's likewise revealing when Pim Fortuyn's commentary is compared to Geert Wilder's since Fortuyn is occasionally cast in a quasi-saintly role, even though Fortuyn considered himself a center-right politician and unambiguously expressed concerns that are virtually identical with Wilders' own stated concerns.)

Regarding LGF's and Charles Johnson's incoherence (and continued childishness), Robert Spencer and Andrew Bostom.

Ironists of the world, take courage, Unite!!!

Salvatore

I was sufficiently interested in this matter to watch the Fitna film on the internet.
Call me callous or insensitive, but I thought it didn't rise above the usual documentary stuff anyone can see all the time.
So, the muslims may be hypersensitive, or maybe some of them are having a laugh.
So, lets join in by seeing if someone will petition the BBC to show the film on prime time tv.
They will obviously be far too pc to do that but the petition might flush out another of the crazy dingbats they employ to explain how our licence fees are safely employed in the cause of censorship.

Salute ,

Salvatore.

Kurt

What absolute rubbish! Do you people really know what you are talking about? Have you seen Fitna? Do you understand the consequences of such a mindless approach to societal issues? It seems not.

Wilders is indeed a facist. he says he is not, but why should we believe what he says? Look at his work, his legacy. He is inciting hatred - simple as that!

In the Netherlands, upon the release of Fitna, the majority of the population ignored the film as it is just a load of tosh. One could quite easily make a film about the Bible and how the West is violently forcing its values on vulnerable countries throughout the world. What do you think would happen to the person who made such a film?

In allowing Wilders to make a presence in the House of Lords we are giving a racist bigot undue respect. Why should we allow that? OK, perhaps banning him from entering the UK is going too far, but there is no reason whatsoever to give him an audience in the Houses of Parliament.

anglicus

Check this out from an Arab woman.
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=nul

Alf Tupper

THX 1138. And how's Mr Van Gogh doing these days?

Neil Saunders

It really is terribly simple, Melanie: our government is on the side of Islam (in its most illiberal interpretations) and against its critics.

You really should read Fjordman's "Defeating Eurabia" blogs on the Gates of Vienna web site to understand why the elites of Western Europe have capitulated to Islam.

Raymond Joseph Douglas

Our government and establishment, don't mind how much of a kicking they give to Christianity, but Islam is most definitely off limits ! In Northampton, the powers that be want to sack a popular, and able , christian headteacher of Unity college, with a a non christian !And this in a church of England school ! This is a scandal ! And all for the dubious Academy experiment !

HarleyDavidson

BTW, the Geert Wilders issue is front page new at FOX News in the US. Now, this is getting downright interesting indeed!

Penny

Fitna describes nothing that I haven't seen before; nothing that I don't already know. Indeed, I would go so far as to say almost everybody is aware of the preachers of hatred and the extremes of Sharia law.

Let's just put Wilders out of the equation for a moment. Or, let's assume the very worst; that he is a bigoted racist of the worst kind.

This still does not excuse the threat made by Ahmed (forgive me if I cannot find it in myself to call him 'Lord')

Ahmed appears quite willing to compromise the security and smooth-running of the UK's capital city by rousing 10,000 muslims to prevent Wilders accessing the House of Lords.

He could have taken an alternative course of action. He could have taken his complaint to the relevent authority and had it discussed in a democratic fashion. His apparant recourse, however, is to react in a rather extremist manner.

Where is Ahmed's voice and his 10,000 when Britian permits the entry of radical clerics?

What possible good has Ahmed done for the moderate muslims? Far from this being a 'victory for the muslim community, he has simply exemplified the fears of many.

The man might has well have gone out campaigning for the BNP.

Ichneumon

You know what's most pathetic in this? The word "fitna" means "strife", or "division amongst Muslims". The film exposes the ideology of Islamism, and the parts of Quran they base it on. If the title had been "The Final Revelation" or something like that, then it would had been anti-Islam. Now it clearly states that Muslims are divided, that there is a war within Islam between extremists and moderates. Your leaders have neither brains to realize this, or balls to act on it.

I'd say this arrogantly, except that ours are just as bad, and we don't even have a significant Muslim minority to threaten us...

Suffolkbor

What we are witnessing is the beginning of the end of the left and all of it,s failed ideaology .
The lefties have at last revealed their true colours which now lay exposed where other , more rational people , occasionally wear their hearts .
This is no bad thing as anyone with a modicum of commonsense and basic decency will ever believe their hollow victim centred rhetoric ever again .

The left are drawn to perceived victims and noble causes like a slug to a lettuce .
This particular metaphoric lettuce however , that of Islam ,has been baited with a lethal dose of poison from which the slug of the left will surely perish .

Felix

The left wing are throwing label of "fascist" around. For their information: Hitler was a left-wing politician, his party was called National Socialist German Worker's party and he fought against "Jewish capitalists". Any differences with Red Ken?

Rodder

No wonder all my old schoolmates have been emigrating from England to the tune of thousands a month. A few have even learnt some Dutch and gone to Geert Wilders' brave Holland itself, among the few lands standing up to the onslaught that Wilders is warning about. A few of my more technically-oriented mates to Germany or Austria, which I suppose are in reasonably good shape. The standard throngs of course leaving for the Mediterranean sun in Spain, Italy or the south of France.

Where else is there for a fed-up Briton to go? There is no future for us on our overcrowded island, yet the Aussies and the Ottawa government seem intent on aping the Lib-Con-Lab sellouts at every turn themselves. Do we need some courses in Nederlands or Deutsch just to find a place to move to and live? Because the UK is finished, and every one of us knows it.

Jenni

What has happened to your once great democratic nation?
This wouldn't be allowed to happen here in Australia!
Freedom of speech is the baseline of any democratic society.
These Muslim subversives know how to twist things to their own advantage and to screw our own way of life.
Be aware, be very aware they have a plan and it is not nice.
Save yourselves whilst you still can!
Aussie

Maciek

I am an immigrant to this country. I was expecting secular and free society and I seeing it thrown into dumps now. I live here and for all opportunity I have been given and out of simple respect I consider myself a British patriot. It's truly saddening what is happening. I wish she made that decision earlier, so people had enough time to organise and protest at Heathrow.

Paul

This issue is beyond parody.

We have just had a clip of 'Lord' Ahmed on the BBC News smiling happily as he reminds us that he also 'has a right to free speech'

Some people, as we've seen by officially sanctioned pro-Hamas marches in London, are just freer than others.

THX1138

Helen Says " The reason Wilders wants The Koran banned is because, as with the ban on Mein Kampf in the Netherlands, it is because he believes freedom of speech reaches its limits at incitement to violence."

This point seems a trifle obtuse. Comparing a book that billions hold sacred to Hitler’s murderous tract Mein Kampf seems to me to suggest that those who believe in the Koran are somehow like Nazis, and an all-out war against them would be justified. . Geert Wilders method is to expose the intolerance of Muslims by deliberately provoking them. If they react to his insults, he can then claim that they are a threat to our way of life.

He is no hero of free speech but rather a typical cynical bully boy racist politician of the far right just in this case the majority on this blog agrees with his target.

Also I'm not trying to hide anything otherwise I wouldn't be on this bog arguing with you would I . As an atheist I have no love for Islam I think that's a mostly a terrible religion as is Christianity. I could of course pick out quotations from The Bible or The Torah that could easily be described as "hate speech". I would also remind you that with some of the worst massacres of my life time happed in the forests of Srebrenica and in the Sabra and Shatila refuge camps of Beirut and they were perpetrated by Christians on Muslims. Personally I think all religions are all as bad each other and no doubt we could trade atrocities in the name of religion all night.

Alf Tupper I think you should apologise - I came on to this blog with a reasonable point, okay might not agree with it (fair enough) and a true point re Dutch Muslim TV did offer broadcast the film, after all other stations had refused, and you appear to accuse me of somehow condoning the murder of Theo van Gogh's- Shame on you - In fact I made a contribution for the protection of Hirsi Ali and would do the same for Geert Wilders..

Adam B.

Patrick:
1. How is the film inaccurate? You fail to say.
2. The New Testament is not called the Torah. Displaying a little bit of ignorance yourself there Patrick.
3. Palestine is not illegally occupied. By the way you phrase your sentence, it seems you regard Israel itself as "illegally occupied" despite the fact that Israel is the only country on earth voted into existence by the UN - how is that "illegal"? It is the most legal country there is!
4. Israel is a democracy, with an independent judiciary and a free press, unlike any of the apartheid despotic regimes which surround her (and do not cause any outrage in you).
5. Israel does not operate Chinnook helicopters.
6. Israelis does not have an apostrophe, it is plural of Israeli.
7. Provide some evidence for your blood libel that Israel has "massacred entire villages." This is a lie.

Otherwise Patrick, a well researched, thought through and considered post.

Why do ignoramuses always have such a big mouth?

SamB

Muslims who demand 'respect' from others and who criticise Wilders for 'preaching hate' should consider revising their views with regard to gay people. As I always say - you can't have your cake and eat it too! If you would like the freedom to preach hatred against - amongst others - gays, then you should not complain when others are exercising their right to free speech to criticise you people.

Ron

@Kurt
February 11th, 2009 8:24pm
You are a left wing Dhimmi. The F-word (Fascist that is) is abused by your kind to kill any discussion about Islam.

You are so wrong about Wilders. If he were a facsist why then would his lawyer be of Jewish origin and would he have lived in Israel for several years? If he were a bigot would he have married a Hungarian woman?

quiet_observer

I have to disagree with the majority of comments - i doubt many here have even seen Fitna his video which portrays Islam on the whole as a violent religion, he makes no effort to differentiate Islamic extremism from moderate Islam. Wilders is too controversial a figure to allow into the UK, a scholar, not a politician is best placed to advise the government on causes of extremism.

Shinoda

A very thoughtful decision. Its people like him on both side that convinces the fools to fight and die for God or promised land. We dont need more racists, remember he is facing charges in his own country for inciting racism and hatred, who are we to judge him.

Roger Svensson, Sweden,

This new Brttish policy, to limit diplomatic relations with democracies and stop freedom of speech is mosly destructive to UK. It means that crminal terrorists decide UK foreign policy, and their influence is supported by the radicals in the Brittish goverment. You must get rid of all extremists in the streets and those in the paliament. This is dangerous for all of europe.

Johnathan Carson

Melanie, as such a defender of free speech, I look forward to your equally heartfelt principled demands for elected politicians such as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and radicals such as Omar Bakri Mohammed to be given the right to air their views.

Indeed perhaps you'd like to lay out the red carpet for them too? Oh but wait, they are irrationally prejudiced against the wrong religion, right?

Michael B

Ichneumon,

Precisely so. The brief film (17 minutes) has been subjected to a great many distorted depictions when in fact it largely allows (selected aspects) of the Qur'an to speak for itself, together with audio/visual overlays of present-day uses those verses have been put to (with very few protests, btw, coming from within the larger Muslim population). That is in fact all the film does. There are no Leni Riefenstahl or Michael Moore styled exaggerations whatsoever in "Fitna" (which fact is also telling, since some who have been accepting of Michael Moore's mendacious "mockumentaries" worry over Wilders' "Fitna").

The single, perhaps more valid criticism I've heard of Wilders' "Fitna" is that some of the translated Qur'anic texts are not accurately translated. I have not seen convincing support for that charge, but if true it would plausibly represent a more valid criticism.

(Still, the larger and more important theme here is freedom of speech, not absolute accuracy and truth demanded of one side of the debate only.)

Rockmelon

Did you know that very few Americans are aware of the situation in Europe? And those who do know are thoroughly disgusted by the ease with which you have allowed your homelands to be taken over by the ignorance and arrogance of a supposed religious cult?

America is no longer an ally of Great Britain. Unfortunately, we have elected a socialist reformer with Muslim ties to lead our country. So don't look for us to stand by your side when the death knell is sounded.

I deeply regret that sixty-five years ago my grandparents sent five of their sons to Europe to help in your fight against Hitler. You fought then and we fought beside you. Now just 65 yrs later you can't lift a finger or open your mouths against your dhimmitude.

If your government is not speaking and acting on your behalf, then it's time that you changed that or you die. It's your choice.

Phil

What disgusts me, far more than this whole debate over the exclusion of a dutch MP, is the blatant anti-Islamism present on this comments page. The Koran is, like the Bible, not a book to be taken literally, yet people jump on the bandwagon without so much as an invitation if they perceive a threat to "democracy". Instead of criticising a government for potentially violence, perhaps people should congratulate the sane minds who decided that political and religious uproar is not beneficial.

Arthur Murgatroyd

Oh dear, you are all forgetting that Faux Labour needs the votes of muslims at the next election.

Faux Labour dare not offend one of its core constituencies.

frank bauer

Having seen at least the major part of "Fitna", I regard it as far from a masterpiece, but an obvious attempt at an interpretation of certain parts, possibly minimal parts of the Qu'ran. Completely legitimate in a democratic and civilized society and no different from criticising a book of law, regulations or any work that postulates its current or past legitimacy in ordaining the behaviour of peoples.

Not to be able to criticise laws, regulations or governments (no matter whose laws, regulations or governments) is unthinkable in a true democracy - as is a restriction of freedom of movement and free speech in general.

The question we must now ask is: Is Britain a true democracy or just some master's idea of democracy.

Simon

It seems it is basic UK policy to pay off its enemies and pay out its friends.

JC

Dear England,

It's Official...

You are dieing.

You have an illness and it is terminal. I'm so very sorry. I have always looked at you in wonder. While not always agreeing with you, I have always had respect for you.

Not anymore. You are committing suicide and you don't even seem to care. Your leaders do not seem to be able to tell that many of the people emigrating to your country are NOT emigrants; they are colonists. They are not coming to join you; they are coming to replace you.
I must turn my attention to my beloved US and do what I can to make sure this illness doesn't ravage it as well. It seems that it has been infected with a similar strain of Socialism.
I hope you get better but you will have to do it on your own. I will miss you. John Chavous, SC, USA

Augustus Arboretum

The fact that Wilders is an MP doesn't make his views any more acceptable - they are pretty much the same as Nick Griffin's and the BNP's. The idea that Wilders is at all interested in making an "uncompromising stand against the Koranic sources of Islamist extremism and violence" is misleading if not dishonest. He is prejudiced against all Muslims and has an extremely jaundiced view of Islam. He distorts the Koran as much as the fundamentalists do deliberately to cause offence. Of course he's a security threat, and it's not one worth taking for the sake of giving him a platform at the House of Lords, of all places, for his illiterate, distasteful and offensive views. As the government insists, one of its primary roles is precisely to do as much as reasonably possible to maintain security.

That all said, he shouldn't be stopped from coming to the UK - only prevented from speaking at a UK House of Parliament, a move that can only be seen as tacit approval for his views.

Knight

As an American, I will say Thank God for our 2nd Amendment. You leftist useful idiots can call me whatever you want, Time to ship American Arms to you Brits!When are you going to defend yourselves?

Dr.R. Clavan

Geert Wilders is a hero. A brave and smart man, not afraid to stand up to the tsunami of muslims hitting NL, UK, Europe and even the whole world. I think it's time for a new 'Endloesung' (final solution) to this problem. Despite how horrific it has been for Jews during WWII I think we should make concentration camps again (not death camps) and deport all muslims to these camps. Such a camp could be a desolated island, their own original arabic country or just a peace of land nobody cares about. Whatever it takes! But the violent threat of muslims (and they ALL act accoring to the kuran so they ALL want to kill us pigs and dogs in the end when they've reached demohraphic majority) MUST be stopped. Better to get rid of this cancer now than trying to fight it when we've already lost the battle. Non-believers: UNITE!

Dave M

"If they react to his insults, he can then claim that they are a threat to our way of life."

This whole saga basically proves wiser philosophers such as Plato were totally correct to conclude multicultural societies were "divided through diversity" rather than strengthened. The truth is multiracial societies are vulnerable, fractured and on edge. The only test of the stability of any society is when it has to sustain some external blow and survives intact. Here what we see is basic fear over social unrest and violence. True, this Dutch man's position can be viewed as confrontational and challenging to some groups but that never excuses violence. No society should fear falling apart in such a case. In fact the recent theatrical Springer Show was insulting to many Christian groups but no violence resulted. Basically the Labour Party is afraid of social unrest and is acting out of fear. So the question needs to be asked where does that leave their half-baked ideology of "unity via diversity"? Surely if a country is unified it's not going to fall apart over one man's opinion being expressed. As for mulsim groups maybe they could try good old honest debate in order to defend their beliefs rather than having to "react", as some people put it.

JFK

In reply to the mastermind Phil who posted this at 1.:05am.

"The Koran is, like the Bible, not a book to be taken literally, yet people jump on the bandwagon without so much as an invitation if they perceive a threat to "democracy".

I would implore you Phil to get off the bandwagon YOU are jumping on and go jump on another you know at least something about. Because you clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about on THIS issue.

Contrary to your uninformed opinion that the koran is just a book like the Bible, not to be taken literally, the fact is that the koran IS taken literally by muslims. It's a tenet of their faith that the koran IS the LITERAL word of God and must be followed to the letter by all muslims.

Now perhaps you have just an inkling of why it concerns the likes of Geert Wilders and others so much. And why we have seen a spate of murders of people who have spoken out against it.

Marsouin

Where are the millions of peace-loving, moderate Muslims living in the West? Why are they not spontaneously descending into the street demanding freedom of speech in their new, adopted homeland? Their silence is tacit approval of the injustice against Wilders.

Joe the patriot

Enough?

bigrab

The only surprising point here is that people are actually surprised at the stance taken by that gutless, spineless, witless, talentless little man. His surname tells you all you need to know; straw by name, straw by nature. We are on a short drive to oblivion whilst the merchants of hate are free to continue their drive to the Islamization of this country and the government (I use the term loosely!) aid and abett them in their efforts. The contempt and revulsion that I feel for Brown and all of his disgusting syncophants would, if it were measured in watts, be enough to light up every home in the land. The sooner the British people wake up and take a good look around them and see what is happening to us the better off we will all be. At least we have proved in the past that we have the stomach for the fight, unlike that shower of miscreants in office at the moment.

JohnW

Ex-apprentice,

Just remember - Jack Straw's constituency is Blackburn, Lancs - a Muslim stronghold that overwhelmingly backs Labour in its dhimmi policies.

Doesn't that explain everything you need to know about him?

Kevin O'Malley, Chicago

I was in Ireland a few days ago. I brought up the name of Geert Wilders. Not one person had heard of him. This is due to the P.C. media of the U.K. and Ireland.The ship is slowly but surely taking on water.

Peter

One of the prayers that we still have after the Ancient Mass is the prayer for the Sovereign of England. I continue to say that, and I think in light of this latest episode of spasmodic cultural suicide, I will add my prayers for the people of England as well.

Michael B

Augustus Arboretum,

Why would allowing someone to speak in a legislative body constitute approval, tacit or otherwise?

And - could someone tell Piotr Stanczak that "Fitna" is somehow irrelevant or uninstructive.

Fred Kolkman

As a Dutchman I only want to say this: Is this what your lads fought for 65 years ago? Shame on you, Secretary of State.

Fergus Pickering

Augustus Arboretum, explain to me please, hpw Mr Wilders distorts the Koran. He quotes what it says. You might say that the Bible is full of bloodthirsty bits. So it is, but very few Christians act on them. Muslims on the other hand...

Time for a revolution....

Cowardly Poms, you 'orta be ashamed. Show some guts and overthrow your stupid government and all its cringing departments.

imberhk

As a UK expat in Hong Kong I find myself increasingly embarrassed by the antics of the current government. Yet again we kow tow to extremism

Kiwi

Augustus Arboretum, you say, "He distorts the Koran as much as the fundamentalists do deliberately to cause offence." I watched Fitna the Movie, cross referencing the quoted texts, no distortions, they're all accurate.
Wilders should challenge Nazir Ahmed to a televised debate. The first question he should ask is, "Do Moslems, and you in particular, believe the Qur'an to be the literal word of Allah?" The rest should be easy.

JohnW

Phil, 1:05 am,

If the Koran is just a book and not to be taken literally, as you say, then you had better get this across to the many Muslim fanatics who are so keen to kill us on its behalf.

Alex

I actually cried this morning as I heard this news item on the radio. I am ashamed of this government and of living in a country that appears to be missing a backbone, but I am also scared - scared of the creeping erosion of our basic freedoms that is being ignored through a misplaced political correctness.

John McGroarty

It has been a growing trend in Britain for years. Britain once a proud nation & empire is now reduced to a recession hit, crime ridden entity skulking in the darkest corner of Europe... affraid of it's own shadow.

I moved out long ago.

Whisby

If I don't like his views I'll ignore them but he should have the right of free speech and free travel in the EU to come here and speak. Another example of this government abandoning principle in the cause of not wanting to offend muslims - shame!

Ann

Phil, above, has never heard about democracy and free speech. He wants to muzzle someone just because he dares to say what many think about the colonisation of the West - but is happy with free entry and free speech for Islamic racist who openly call for Jews to be murdered.
And the disgraceful 'home secretary' agrees with him.
This country is terminally suicidal.

Ann

"Wilders is nothing but a hate-mongering, right-wing zionist"

You don't actually know what 'Zionist' means, do you, little man? You use it as a swear word, which clearly exposes your Jew-hatred.

EC

Phil: "The Koran is, like the Bible, not a book to be taken literally..."

I wonder how many of its clerics would agree with you? That is, when they are not practising "al-Taqiyya."

I've always thought that religion and sanity were uneasy bedfellows .... but mix in politics and ka-boom!

BTW, how many beheadings should it take to convince a sane person?

I spent quite a while yesterday trying to post a link to a very interesting video on "www. liveleak .com" called "What Islam is NOT." I think that this video is better than Wilders' and it doesn't feature the Koran in the same "inflammatory" way. It seems that even Pete was unable to post the link. However you can find the video if you google liveleak with "what Islam."

Linda Smith

THX1138 (11 Feb 11.02pm) wrote: Geert Wilders method is to expose the intolerance of Muslims by deliberately provoking them. If they react to his insults, he can then claim that they are a threat to our way of life."

Nothing wrong with that. It's scientific method.

Mark

I am surprised nobody has mentioned Lord Ahmed's invitation to Israel Shamir. Stephen Pollard did brilliant expose on this four years ago in the Times. I'll quote extensively as he's a far better writen than I am.

"The gist of Shamir/Jermas’s speech at the meeting can be gleaned from its title, “Jews and the Empire”. It included observations such as: “All the [political] parties are Zionist-infiltrated.” “Your newspapers belong to Zionists . . . Jews indeed own, control and edit a big share of mass media, this mainstay of Imperial thinking.” “In the Middle East we have just one reason for wars, terror and trouble — and that is Jewish supremacy drive . . . in Iraq, the US and its British dependency continue the same old fight for ensuring Jewish supremacy in the Middle East.” “The Jews like an Empire . . . This love of Empire explains the easiness Jews change their allegiance . . . Simple minds call it ‘treacherous behaviour’, but it is actually love of Empire per se.” “Now, there is a large and thriving Muslim community in England . . . they are now on the side of freedom, against the Empire, and they are not afraid of enforcers of Judaic values, Jewish or Gentile. This community is very important in order to turn the tide.”""

RichardT

This is a very sad day for democracy. Democracy can only be effective if there is unity amongst the people. What we are seeing in the UK and indeed in Europe is a case of divide and rule. If an opinionated public can be divided they are weak and have no collective voice. The muslim population of the world have unity and collective voice...an Iranian muslim considers a Gazan a brother just as a French Muslim would consider an Afghani Muslim a brother also. I am seeing a huge amount of conviction of opinion but if our opinion is always expressed through the limitations of internet discussion forums, then we have truly lost our democracy held dear to all of us. I am against all violence and believe that collective unity is the only way to make a difference against fascism. if we don't collectively,yet non violently protest against Islamification then our democracy has already disappeared.

phil

NOTICE TO ALL THERE IS ANOTHER IMPOSTER USING MY NAME -I DID NOT WRITE THE POST FEB 12 AT 1.05-PETE PLEASE FIND OUT THE EMAIL ADDRESS OF THIS PERSON AND STOP HIM -HE DID IT YESTERDAY TOO

phil

ann sorry to disappoint you it wasnt my post.surely you know I would not have written that ! but welcome back:) I would know your style anywhere

PETRA

MY RESPECT 2 YOU
MELANIE
GREETZ FROM HOLLAND

phil

JFK- my hero!! it was not me who wrote that post you objected to.so do I phil

Pedant

Was today's Phil at 1.05am the regular one, on the Apostrophe Society's black list, or the old or young Pretender?

Ron, why would marriage to a Hungarian acquit Wilders of bigotry? David Irving is married to a Dane and Hungary was allied to Germany in World War 2. Wilders has a Jewish lawyer? Well, I don't know about Holland but in this country barristers at least are like a taxi on a rank and have to accept any client. I take it that Wilders and not the Jewish lawyer lived in Israel for several years.

Ferrand

A Government which cannot be trusted with our Money is unlikely to be trusted with our Freedom ?
The Koran, which teaches repression for Christians, can be found here http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/

DaveP

While all this is very disconcerting, the real threat is the demographic one. In less then 50 years, Muslims will have sufficient numbers to have a Muslim majority in parliament. That will be the day of the extinction of Britain as a historic cultural entity. No amount of standing up for Geert Wilders is any help against that threat.

NuLabour has destroyed Britain, something that Napoleon or the Nazis were unable to do. Actually, it is our fault for serially electing such a passle of ignorant buffoons, but then who would have guessed that any British political party would put the existence of Britain at risk for electoral gain.

FF

I find Mr Wilders creepy and objectionable, but I have no right to ban him or other people I disagree with.

Having said that, be careful before treating as a hero someone who says this:

"I don't hate Muslims. I hate their book and their ideology."

He's clearly racist.

phil

Patrick I was just about to reply to the tosh you wrote but then I saw Adam B had taken the exact words I would have used -I wish we could have bets on this thread because mine would be that you do not answer him .

Mjolnir de Jersiase

Patrick, you stated that: "Some people on this forum are ignorant or in a blatant position of denial!". Well, you got that right; and you are one of the worst examples...

DaveP

This NuLabour government is without any doubt, the very worst government that any nation has had. OK, Mugabe ruined the economy of Zimbabwe, but so has NuLabour of Britain’s. But the one saving grace of Mugabe is that he will not give up his country to foreigners. Nobody can accuse Mugabe of trying to hand over Zimbabwe to the "whites".

That is one way to look at NuLabour's appeasement of Muslims and Islam. The other is that this government is saying to the people, "If you want your country to free itself from Islam and the demographic threat, you will have to do it yourself". In effect, all its appeasement policies, appeasement of the most grovelling kind, can be viewed as trying to provoke the British people to do something. “Do something”, they say, “ For until you the people do something, we the government are powerless, and have no justification in taking any action”.

If above is the case, then the real dhimmis, appeasers and cowards are us, the British people, who have let down Britain, the NuLabour government, and above all the millions of people in Britain, the USA, Canada, Australia and NZ, who gave their lives to safeguard freedom.

The real question is then, when do we say to ourselves, that we want our country back, and are prepared to do something about it, and no one can stand in our way.

Wade

Fear should never win. Truth, Equality and Freedom of speech should be the main stay in our developed civilised societies. These are the qualities that marked the winning of WW2.A dark day this is on human idealism. The English government should revert their position on this as soon as possible. Islamic fear mongering is against our basic constitution.

Cuthbert Brown

Dave P- for Muslims to become a majority will take more than 50 years; your comments like many others on this post are ludicrous. I am more worried about idiots who think they know everything when in reality they are like sheep, easily strayed. Funny how my previous comment has not been printed by this democratic forum. P.s Ahmed never said anything about brining 10,000 Muslims and if you want to see what fundamentalists think of Islam, you need not look further than world events and your newspapers, they are the new communists. Lastly your comments are very offensive, but then the Daily Mail is the Daily heil

Bing Bong

You are all a bunch of hypocrites. Read your bible, it is filled with hate and violence, eg. Leviticus and Deutreronomy. When you compare the autrocities committed by European Christian governments since they rounded the Cape of Good hope to the present (yes, including its extension - the USA), the Muslim worlds violence toward Europe pales in comparison. Your imperialistic ideology is what got us in to this mess!

Chris

The basis of any civilised society is free debate. Remove this and we're on the road to nowhere. Ergo, if someone is talking plain drivel, then the 'viewing' public will treat it as such, and do. You therefore have to question those who try to ban such materials. What are they afraid of? An inconvenient truth?

iq

FF: 'Having said that, be careful before treating as a hero someone who says this:

"I don't hate Muslims. I hate their book and their ideology."

He's clearly racist.'

Forgive me, FF, I must be on the slow pills today, but which part of that makes him racist? That he hates a book (which isn't a race), that he hates a set of ideas (which are not a race) or that he does NOT hate the followers of a particular religion (not a race, nor even hatred)?

William Frysian

"An Appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last." Winston Churcill

David

We tolerate the intolerant among us. The intolerant however refuse to tolerate the tolerant. So why do we constantly indulge them, at such great expense to our FREE society?

Matt

The Conservative Party NEED to start speaking out on issues like this, or they are going to lose votes to BNP and we'll be stuck with this sell-out government for another 5 years.

PS I may be alone but the irony of VB's post was not lost on me.

Jules141

Previous poster: "Brits - I said it here before and I'll say it again: Your constant appeasement to Muslim anger is evidence that you are doomed. A few voices like Melanie's will not save you. Sad to see you go."

I said it here before and I'll say it again: Our constant appeasement to Muslim anger is temporary. Are you all on acid? These post are hysterical. One false move by the government and ... apocalypse, all of a sudden you say goodbye as if to a old friend.

You should all just calm down, hyperbolically screaming about how we are finished is incredibly un-British, maybe that's why we're not all doing it. Just because we don't find some excuse to ram "freedom" and "democracy" and "liberty" into every single sentence doesn't mean we are unaware.

Please people!! We'll sort are problems out are own way yes? The problems in Britain, but the way some of the responses are on here you'd think this was America.

Omar

Here are a couple of good resources for folks who want to know more. They are both short and very readable. (Bing Bong, I dedicate the second one to you!)

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/war-and-peace-—-and-deceit-—-in-islam-part-1/

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/ibrahim040607.html

Edward in the USA

Jules141, when your own government, press, academic, art communities, cravenly submit to Islamist elements in your country, even after terrorist attacks within Britain, even after hostage taking by iran, even after hostage taking of journalist (Alan Johnston), even after hostage beheading (Daniel Pearl), then YES, it does look like Britain has irrevocably lost its way.

Peter Thompson

I must say how spot on you are, I have admired your writing ever since reading Londonistan (for those of you who haven't read it do so. I work in Amsterdam and in one of the free newspapers today there was a joke about who they should ban from the Netherlands. Chris Martin and Charlotte Church both craked mentions!!! But seriously this makes me despair for my country, having seen Fitna I recommend any sane person watch it. The voices in the wilderness need to be heard, we have to see sense and realise that there are far more dangerous and unsettling people already in our midst.

MaryMary

"Never run away from danger", Churchill's private motto. Reckon the Home Office could learn a lot.

Jenny

That's right, Bing Bong, Christianity has seen the foundation of democracies the world over and Islamists want us all ruled by the mad Mullahs.

Nobody here 'got us into this mess' since no-one here wrote The Koran or The Hadith.

arish sahani

This is new Kind of war by mideast peoples. .Its between good people who like freedom v/s people who like no freedom.By letting middle east culture who don't allow any one in their cuntry freedom and we free people in west allowing these middle east people are creating a problem for western people who like freedom.its time we should expel all middle eastern people back to their country to make west terror free. These protest by middle east people is nothing but creating disharmony as they have not learned living with west how to co exist. lets get them out of west. They have 57 countries .

phil

Pedant it definately was not the regular phil,you know the one with bad apostrophes .but tell me what is it you are trying to say ,I am bewildered ,,,,,,

nosmo29

Cuthbert, you wrote ...for Muslims to become a majority will take more than 50 years; your comments like many others on this post are ludicrous....

Not so ludicrous at all. See The Times' article of 30 January http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5621482.ece
Their population is doubling every ten years in the UK.

Andrew

'"I don't hate Muslims. I hate their book and their ideology."

He's clearly racist.'

Islam isn't a race, sweetheart. Am I a racist because I hate communism? No? Well then neither is Wilders for hating Islam.

Sam Armstrong

Jules141
February 12th, 2009 1:05pm

Well done! I agree with you, this is temporary. They said in the 70's that Britain would never recover from economic socialism, and Britain will also recover from this cultural socialism. It will, as usual, be a close shave, though.

To all the Americans suffering from Schadenfreude with their over-the-top predictions, I would once again reiterate that your own country, the good ole US of A, is also pretty unwell. A wounded beast, that is about to get its tail twisted a hell of a lot over the next 4-8 years, so save your faux concern for your own demise. It's probably only 2 decades away.

Have a nice day.

Sam Armstrong

And another thing, the main reason why people have not risen up against the wannabe colonial Islamists is because our media is left-wing dominated. The facts simply don't get relayed in a way that would stir the emotions. With a forthcoming change of government, we will hopefully see this change. After all, left-wing media dominance was what got Barrack HUSSEIN Obama elected, wasn't it?

Thomas

Gordon Bennett! Let the man have his say. If no one agrees, no one will pay him any attention. BUT, explain to me why Islam insists the West understand it, but refuses to understand the West? Are they soooo misunderstood? Telling, no?

Sam Armstrong

Edward in the USA
February 12th, 2009 1:44pm

when your own government, press, academic, art communities, cravenly submit appeasement of rogue states, even after terrorist attacks within New York City, even after hostage taking by iran, even after hostage taking of journalist (Jill Carrol), even after hostage beheading (Paul Berg), then YES, it does look like America has irrevocably lost its way.

FF

iq - "I don't hate Muslims. I hate their book and their ideology."
He's clearly racist.'

Forgive me, FF, I must be on the slow pills today, but which part of that makes him racist?

IQ, try these for size:

"I don't hate Jews. I hate their book and their ideology."

"I don't hate Christians. I hate their book and their ideology."

Mr Wilders associates the believers with their religion. He DOES hate both.

Jules141

"Jules141, when your own government, press, academic, art communities, cravenly submit to Islamist elements in your country, even after terrorist attacks within Britain, even after hostage taking by iran, even after hostage taking of journalist (Alan Johnston), even after hostage beheading (Daniel Pearl), then YES, it does look like Britain has irrevocably lost its way."

A country losing its way for a while is enough for these over-the-top Hollywood responses is it?

What if a film was shown, despite a Muslim backlash, would the news reporters report it? No. If they don't report it, it means it hasn't happened.

If they didn't report any of this, it would of ever happened, none of us would of ever known about it. But seeming as they have reported about it, posters everywhere throw up their opinions and write-off counties.

What makes you think people in Britain aren't aware of what's going on? Some of the people on here sound like Muslim extremists.

Andre

Bing Bong Go back and read the new testament - particularly the gospel according to John and the epistle to the Romans. Christianity is a religion posited on love and forgiveness. Christ came to save not condemn. Jesus also warned us to beware of false prophets who came after him. 'By their fruits you shall know them' Murder, suicide bombings, sharia law, oppression of women and gays, decapitation, mutilation, suppression of free speech and democracy - how much more evidence do you need that this is an abomination before God? Watch Fitna and tell us what is inaccurate about it.

Penny

Hello Cuthbert!

As the media sources carrying this story ARE saying that Ahmed threatened to 'rouse 10,000 muslims', I would be more than grateful to find a source which details his rebuttal.

Either way, there's an issue. Either he said it - or the media has lied. I'd very much like to be sure which way round it is. I don't like to fool myself or others with distorted truths, nor do I want to overlook lies coming from the media. We've had quite enough of those over the last couple of months!

That aside, from my perspective, Wilders did not ask to come to the UK - he was invited. He did not ask that after his meeting in the Lords, he should be able to go public and hold meetings at which 'Fitna' is shown. His film - which has got enormous publicity, thanks to Ahmed, is not being screened in cinemas or theatres. In short, I see no real attempt on Wilders' part to incite hatred. He certainly didn't instigate his invitation nor did he announce it to the world's press and expect a huge fanfare. All that appears to have been done by Ahmed. Although I'm open to being corrected on this matter - my only source is the media.

The film (which I have seen) is perhaps provocative - but it isn't actually based on lies. The harsh Sharia system IS the way of things in some Arab countries and is slowly spreading into others. Egypt is slowly descending; parts of Africa have the punative Sharia system; Iran and Saudi Arabia aren't unknown for their regular public executions and even the Gazan authorities are now in their second sitting of the bill to pass Sharia into law - a bill which includes crucifixion. How extremely civilised! But, you cannot deny that a system we knew little about a few decades ago is now more than evident. Thus - it is on the rise.

When noises are made in the UK about introducing Sharia courts, there is reason to be alarmed. I accept that such courts are currently dealing with family matters, (I suspect to the detriment of many muslim women who'd prefer UK law)but given the extremists in our midst, we shouldn't lose sight of the full extent of Sharia. We've already spent years sleep-walking our way into the bizarre, politically correct world that we're in now. These things happen gradually....This is not racism. Many moderate muslims are having the ground swept from beneath their feet too. They also need protection.

It also appears to me that had this visit been allowed to go ahead, without Ahmed leaping into matters, it would have been a very small affair. We know little about Wilders, but a meeting at the Lord's might have gone some way to establish his true intentions. The Lord's might have taken his views as those of a bigoted racist, or they might have found some veracity in his words. We'll probably never know, now - and that's a pity.

The Met police take the view that allowing meetings such as those arranged by Hizb ut-Tahrir, to go ahead, they are preventing the 'plot' from going underground.

How on earth can Wilders - here by invitation with no expectation of going public - be deemed a danger so immense that he over-rides those posed by Hizb ut-Tahrir and needs to be banned from the UK?

A favour....

Perhaps Dutch visitors to this blog can clarify Wilders' position in Holland. My understanding is that the prosecution brought against him is private - having been thrown out by the Dutch courts.

Hornstein

my comment wasn't posted yesterday nor do I think this will be posted here. Isn't it ironic? Melanie talks about "free speech" and yet the people deciding what should go into this thread censure any comment that does not agree with her.

Laura

Cuthbert Brown [February 12th, 2009 12:24pm] says “the Daily Mail is the Daily heil”. Ah, yes, the Daily Mail once had an owner who thought the Nazis were nice people at a time when all the deluded fools in Britain though the Nazis were nice people. One of them was a Prime Minister. Sounds a bit like déjà vu with those people who tell us all today that the Islamozanis are nice people.

And we all know The Guardian presents the speeches of a mass murderer called Osama Bin Laden on its op ed pages, but would never allow the same for the non-murdering perfectly legal BNP leader Nick Griffin.

Alan Rusbridger’s poisonous lackeys spend page after page telling us all about how ‘offended’ they are, or someone else is, on Islam’s behalf, but if The Guardian wants to offend all the families of the dead by presenting Osama Bin Laden’s speeches as op-ed pieces, why, that’s fine. Offend away.

Patrick

Adam B, let me highlight your ignorance’s.
Wilder takes verses from the Koran, and either quotes them out of context or wrongly translates them, or carefully puts them alongside images of violence. For example, he tries to equate an Islamic religious festival with an attack on the West. Another example, he wants people to think a few hate radical preachers represent the voice of over 1 billion Muslims. Well, according to that analogy, Hitler, Stalin, Mugabe,,Mussolini, represent the views of all Christians. Do you agree??
And there are numerous verses in the Old Testament, The New Testament, and the Torah that advocate violence.

‘Palestine is not illegally occupied’, are you sure about that? Where was the state of Israel before 1948? Have the Palestinian suddenly descended into Palestine from outer space? Was Palestine barren land? How many UN resolutions have Israel defied, that call for a complete withdrawal from the occupied territories, and a stop to settlements? Israel has been annexing an stealing land since 1967, for example, the Fourth Geneva Convention, Security Council resolution 242 (1967),and security resolutions 478 (1980) deal with this issue.

‘Israel is a democracy’, yes it is, but so are Hamas, Kuwait, Oman, Turkey, Lebanon, puts to death any notions you have on Israel being the only democracy in that region.

‘Israel has a free press’, Now you are insulting me, why did they not allow any foreign journalist into Gaza, when the conflict begun?

‘Israel does not operate Chinook helicopters’, its entire military is made in the USA and the UK, you can add tanks, guns, bombs, gun ships, nukes, into that as well, they receive billions every year, from the very kind US taxpayer.

‘Israel has massacred villages’, well, what did they do in Shatilla and Sabra, what have they done recently in Gaza, where over 1,000 people were killed. How many Palestinians village and towns have they taken over since 1967, to the extent, the pre-1967 Palestinian demographic majority is virtually non-existent. Why are over 2 million Palestinian refugees living in refugee camps, being denied the right to return to their homeland? Why don’t you study the map of Palestine in 1948 with a map of Palestine now, and see which race of people is being ethnically cleansed?

Augustus

Geert Wilders has got more publicity than he ever would have had if this stupid government hadn't sent him a letter banning him. More fool them! To prove this, Wilders visited the House of Lords five weeks ago and spent a day there without any publicity whatsoever. The film Fitna is a red herring because it's available to everyone all over the internet.

Penny

I would suggest readers visit the website link I've provided. It makes for interesting reading in terms of Mr Ahmed's associates.

The following in an excerpt from the article:

"Lord Nazir Ahmed recently led a delegation to the Turkish Embassy in London to pay tribute to Erdogan for walking off the stage during the appearance with Peres at last month's Davos Conference, according to a London-based think tank, the Center for Social Cohesion (CSC).

The letter was signed by a number of radical Islamists, including Mohamed Ali Harrath, who was convicted in absentia in 1992 for terrorist-related offenses by a Tunisian court, and Mohammed Sawalha, described by a US court as a former Hamas leader, and presented by the delegation to the embassy.

Harrath was on Interpol's most-wanted list, and had connections to Osama bin Laden, the CSC said."

Oh dear....!!

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

FF

Compare Geert Wilder's speech to the Dutch parliament (www.navyseals.com/geert-wilders-speech-hollands-parliament) with this speech given by Adolf Hitler in 1922 (www.hitler.org/speeches/07-28-22.html), well before the Holocaust became a concrete idea.

The context is different and Wilder uses slicker language. However, the fundamental message of both speeches is the same: we, the original people, are overrun by an alien race, compromise is not possible, we need to deal with the problem vigorously...

Geoff

FF. No! Due to the lightning waves of Jihad many different ethnic groups are now Muslim. From fair skinned Bosniaks to tan skinned Turks. Muslims, therefore do not comprise a distinct racial group. They cannot be termed a 'race' or an ethnic group in the same way that Jews can; simply for the fact that Muslims do not form a uniform ethno-religious match. Muslims are therefore distinct religiously, but NOT ethnically...Islam is a polyglot united by a shared ideology. Criticism of Islam or Muslims cannot therefore be considered 'racist' as to what racial group is the challenger condemning? The Turks? The Iranians? The Kosovans?

Jewish racism is different.To hate Jews, it to summon up hatred for a distinct ethnic group, the ethnic grouping being tied uniquely to the religious order...It can therefore be considered truly racist...

Maximilian

Roger Svensson, Sweden
Today at 12:23 am

Roger writes: "You must get rid of all extremists in the streets." I agree, Roger, the Metropolitan Police ought to have been very much stricter, for example, with the pro-Hamas demonstration in London last month when a Starbucks was smashed up, among other acts of violence.

Please have a look at these videos, apparently shot in Malmo just four days ago, on Feb. 8. Pro-Israel demonstrators are on side of the square and pro-Palestinian demonstrators on the other. You can see the pro-Palestinians shooting rockets into the pro-Israel crowd, while the Swedish police apparently just stand there watching. Can you confirm that this is what really happened?

Thanks
Maximilian

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/02/12/rockets-for-jews/

JaneS

Enough is enough! This is the Stockholm syndrome. Oh dear, such a dark day for Britain as this faceless "Someone" in the Home Office has carried out their threat and barred a brother European from his own territory, ostensibly and patronizingly speaking for us all. Never mind what views Wilders hold, that pathetic, weak, agenda driven imbecile David Millerband is gloating, spewing condescending vomit as if conquering a nation of zesty Aborigines , successfully subdued in defeat and submit to his sick appeasing indoctrination and political posturing to the lowest denominator.
I live in a Muslim country and most of the Muslims I know are laughing at the utter contradiction. The threat of terror for criticizing Islam and the man who truthfully points that out is silenced.
Who is running Britain nowadays? Time up, Time over, Before Mad Max is a reality; we need to get rid of these pathetically ignorant neo liberals called New Labour. The great saviours who created a deadly problem that was never there in the first place. www.bollixmedia.com is so right!

Michael B

I'll ask one final time herein, two questions:

1) In terms of Wilders' alleged mis-translations of the Qur'anic texts as used in "Fitna," would a commentator who believes this - with the use of supportive links/citations - please corroborate that claim.

2) More specifically - and now rhetorically only - would someone care to inform Piotr Stanczak that the concerns exemplified in "Fitna" are somehow irrelevant or uninstructive?

Penny

Patrick - I would respectfully suggest that you are wrong on so many counts that there really isn't space or time to correct you.

Perhaps I could offer up one or two questions to get you started:

Where was the state of Palestine prior to 1967?

Please list the names of any Palestinian leaders prior to the inception of the State of Israel.

Please define the history, culture and traditions of the Palestinian people.

Please provide the number of years Palestine was under Arab rule. Actually, I'll help you with that - it was 22yrs, back in the 6th century when Syria held the reigns.

Please explain the following quote from Zuheir Mohsen, Miltary Head and Exec. member of the PLO.

"Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel"

You've got it from the horse's mouth, there.

Psychology 101 isn't necessary to understand the tactics of Hamas. It's as plain as the nose on your face.

Kevin

You're absolutely right, Melanie. Whereas the Public Order Act was introduced in response to the perceived threat posed by the Blackshirts, now the concept is being used to bully those who would speak out against such a threat.

William Frysian

Even our most left-wing MP's (Green Left) are outraged. In Holland this would be unthinkable. The lack of backbone of this generation of English politicians is disgraceful and dangerous . The Danes and the Dutch stand alone.

At this moment (in the polls) Wilder is the second or third party in Holland (out of approximately 12 political parties)

BTW a lot of my mates are also coloured but still they vote on mr. Wilders.
So that racisme card is quite pathetic.

We already lost two brave persons in Holland, mr Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh.
Will mr. Wilders meet the same fate (may God/Allah/Darwin/Micky Mouse forbid it) Lord Ahmed and the other persons responsible will have blood on their hands.

You were such a proud nation....
Once...

Donna Gardier

Mainly to Foster @ 8.34am 11/2 but also to: Dr Tipu @ 4.54am 11/2 and Adam @ 12.25pm 11/2 and Amanda @ 1.57pm 11/2 and Brian Egdell 11/2 @ 2.04pm

Surely Jack Straw and Lord Ahmed are balanced fair minded and open?? They must be, they are in positions of control and power over our everyday lives! Being so fair and open minded they will therefore understand how important it is to lift the lid on films like this before they gain more publicity and drum up more of a contaminating furore than they already have?! In order to do this they need to put the film under proper examination, and look closely at the plight of Wilders, and learn from it. Hopefully before we have to spend tax millions ourselves on security for outspoken politicians (you never know!) along with all the other unexpected expensive sundries that keep cropping up! So why don’t they do the right thing? Why as a top government official, indeed as Government Chief Whip of the House of Lords, has Lord Ahmed threatened his own office with an army of 10,000 of ‘his’ men from his religion to enforce non-examination of the film? Can you explain this please Foster?

Why on earth have they decided that the majority of people (sensible Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Atheist, Agnostic, Catholic, the list goes on of our very tolerant diverse and, currently, reasonably assimilated society, are not capable of accepting examination of this film where the truth will be there to see in front of a trusted educated critical audience. By that I mean they would pass sound judgement on whether or not the film is full of reactionary nonsense and misrepresentation or whether there are valid references in the film that need to be confronted and dealt with and faced up to properly by everyone. In such an ‘evolved’ society surely we are able to cope with this kind of contentious issue Foster?

If we as a tolerant society cannot cope with what’s contained in this film it doesn’t bode very well towards being able to cope with the increasing reality of the overheated and very bubbly melting pot of indignant intolerance that is going on (largely unreported) in our society these days. It’s looking more and more as if a tide of hatred has already become uncontrollable and we have to accept shut-down procedures before we have been forewarned. These ridiculous situations are arising and as a nation we are precariously half-informed by smug press and smug politicians about real issues and how riled disaffected radicals are becoming. There are too many of us who’ve not been made aware enough that this kind of discontent and this kind of censorship is building up on the horizon. Surely that is very remiss of an elected government? Some might say criminal.

Of course it is easy to get caught up in a naïve quest for the warm and fuzzy feeling that we might get from chasing self indulgent unrealistic largely unquestioning ideologies. While accepting it as quite natural for the young and naïve and vulnerable, I would argue that it is probably indicative of areas of arrested development in an otherwise well-rounded well-informed adult. Surely we get to adulthood and we learn that if we support a woolly spineless approach from our government it gets in the way of common sense, awareness and appropriate clear guidelines for protecting our national identity, national security and national self respect. If that doesn’t happen then crazy things start to happen. - Like for instance we have a representative in the House of Lords who does not represent our best interests at all and he gangs up against his own government (into which he has been invited to take high office) and instead childishly threatens the nation he ostensibly supports with a gang of ‘his’ 10,000 self-interested religious supporters if he doesn’t get his own way! Who’d o’ thought it?

There are far too many around these parts who are in Cloud Cuckoo Land and proud of it! Shame on them, but wait, there seems to be little evidence of shame being valid these days. Something tells me the Cuckoos like it that way.

To: MCMRJP @3.49pm 11/2 – I agree

To: TonyM @3.22am 12/2 – I enjoyed that

DaveP

Cuthbert Brown

The demographioc threat is the real one. Long before the eventual Muslim majority, the situation will have become so dire that nothing can be done about it. So in reality, we have but a few decades before Britain is lost.

My comments are not meant to be offensive - stating the situation as I see it, that makes them so.

P. Buhre, The Netherlands

The devastation of democracy in England has one advantage: Geert will gain many more seats in the Dutch Parliament. Thank you.

Penny T

Patrick [February 12th, 2009 5:17pm], you say: “Wilder takes verses from the Koran, and either quotes them out of context”. No, he hasn’t. If you believe this, tell us how he’s quoted them out of context, Patrick.

“or wrongly translates them,” No, he hasn’t. Where’s the evidence? Tell us what translations you dispute, Patrick.

“or carefully puts them alongside images of violence.” - Patrick, if you follow those instructions to the letter, that’s what happens. That’s why those Islamist terrorists did what they did. That’s why they cry “Allahu Akbar” just before the bomb goes off. Violent jihad has been around for centuries. So what’s new?

“For example, he tries to equate an Islamic religious festival with an attack on the West.” No he does not.

“Another example, he wants people to think a few hate radical preachers represent the voice of over 1 billion Muslims.” No, Patrick, he doesn’t, you’re desperate to smear this man you’re making things up. If those Islamist hate preachers said those things, that’s their fault - no-one else’s.

“Well, according to that analogy,” - that analogy is never made, Patrick, just like your accusation about misquotes, you’ve no evidence.

“Hitler, Stalin, Mugabe,,Mussolini, represent the views of all Christians. Do you agree??” No. No one agrees with that.

Not all Muslims believe in the mad mullahs or wish to carry out those passages in The Koran cited by Fitna - only the fundamentalists do. For this to stop, Islam has to be reformed, the way that other religions have been reformed, which is why the film says in its finale: “For it is not up to me, but to Muslims themselves to tear out the hateful verses from The Koran.” What is your issue with this? Would this not help peace?

You go on: “And there are numerous verses in the Old Testament, The New Testament, and the Torah that advocate violence.” Sorry, when has anybody ever been stopped from criticising the Bible in this country? We have things like The Life of Brian and Jerry Springer - the Opera, but yet no-one can say anything about The Koran - even quote it, apparently.

Talk about double standards.

BullCats

It was nauseating listening to the news with politicians of all shades going on and on about his offensive views about the Koran. When I and 50,000 others complained to the BBC about Gerry Springer, the Opera, which was grossly offensive to Christians, so one listened.
It seems to be in this Country, even the right to be offended is now selective!

iq

FF: 'IQ, try these for size:

"I don't hate Jews. I hate their book and their ideology."

"I don't hate Christians. I hate their book and their ideology."

Mr Wilders associates the believers with their religion. He DOES hate both.'

Nope, still having trouble. Firstly, Christians aren't a race. Whether Jews are a race appears to be up for debate. Muslims aren't a race. Racism is hating someone because of their race, yet you said Wilders is clearly a racist. Now you appear to be answering a different question.

Scottie from Texas

All of the Americans that are reading this website need to be very aware that the same thing can happen here. We are letting illigals (including Arabs) come across our borders and take over jobs, etc. They will take over our country, too, if we are not careful.

David Alexander

The UK has decided that it is the red rag, rather than the bull that is the danger.

John (Netherlands)

Wishing you luck and especially lots of wisdom Britain, you will clearly need it. What a shame of a nation that once ruled the seven seas, look in what kind of state you are in now. Hopefully Churchill is not watching from above because he would be utterly ashamed!

Linda Smith

Patrick 12 Feb 5:17 'Palestine is not illegally occupied' are you sure about that? Where was the state of Israel before 1948? Have the Palestinian suddenly descended into Palestine from outer space? etc.

In answer to your questions: The term Palestinian is a modern invention, coined in 1967 as a propaganda tool by the Arabs. In answer to your question where were the Palestinians before 1948, if we were to use the term Palestinian for the inhabitants before 1948, then to be accurate we would have to say there were Palestinian moslems and Palestinian Jews, etc.

Israel was created by the will of the international community under United Nations Resolution 181 of 29 November 1947, partitioning the British mandate into a Jewish state, an Arab (moslem) state, with Jerusalem and its surrounds designated international. The Arabs refused to comply with Resolution 181 and declared war.

What is now becoming clearer to me as an English person from the discussions arising from the growing global threat of Islamism is that the Arab Moslem refusal to recognise Israel as a Jewish state is not about partition of the British mandate of Palestine per se but in fact arises from the Moslem religious belief that the world must submit to Islam.

Linda Smith

Geoff: 12 Feb 6:11pm.. You're wrong. There is no Jewish "race". There is no "distinct ethnic group". There are light skinned Nordic Jews and dark skinned Ethiopian Jews, Chinese Jews and Indian Jews. Many Jews were converts, particularly in Ancient Rome.
Both Islam and Judaism are ideologies which each have their own rules and customs, as does Christianity and all other religious ideologies.

Brian Moshe

Pedant wrote:
February 12th, 2009 10:37am
"[...]. Wilders has a Jewish lawyer? Well, I don't know about Holland but in this country barristers at least are like a taxi on a rank and have to accept any client."

Pedant, yes, in theory taxi drivers first in line on a rank are supposed to 'accept any client' but obviously there are very sound reasons why a cabbie can refuse to accept a passenger or passengers (e.g. drunk and disorderly; refusing to put out a cigarette; carrying a take-away that has been opened; vomiting by the taxi, etc.).

However, you possibly haven't been following the recent taxi news, British or US: if you had you would know that with increasing frequency in both countries emboldened Muslim taxi drivers are refusing to carry blind people with guide dogs (and increasingly anyone in the US who happens to have visible but bagged duty-free alcohol in sealed bottles as they leave airports).

Quite recently, a blind woman had been at the BBC TV building in London and I think had appeared in a late programme. The BBC rang for a taxi for her afterwards and when the Muslim driver saw she had a guide dog he refused to take her and drove off leaving her alone in a strange place at around midnight. They rang for another taxi and had to ask if it was OK to accept a blind passenger and her guide dog....There have been several such reports in the media.

The only reason I mention this is because you have failed to realise that taxi drivers can refuse fares if there is a legitimate reason to do so. Muslim taxi drivers, however, seem to get away with illegal, if cultural, reasons for refusing fares. Islam holds that dogs are unclean and may be used only for watching, herding, and guarding. The refusal to carry passengers for carrying sealed alcohol sits incongruously with the way the majority of Britain's Pakistani and Bangladeshi owned 'Indian' restaurants happily serve alcohol (although I'm aware that some don't).

It may well be that barristers have to take what comes along. Some years ago the late Lady Birdwood was in a London court for alleged racial hatred and as I recall it was represented by a Jewish barrister.

As far as I'm concerned Geert Wilders is a brave and courageous man and it is a disgrace that he has to live under 24/7 police protection.

When Salman Rushdie's 'Satanic Verses' was at the centre of a series of riots, demos and book-burnings in England in 1989 - that was the time of Margaret Thatcher as PM - she should have used the same tactics against the violent Muslim thugs with their threats of murder and their book burning that she used against the poor old miners. I don't remember mounted police wielding drawn riot sticks charging at the gallop through the Muslim rioters like they did through the miners and women supporting them during the miners' strike.

The Salman Rushdie riots were the moment when we first saw Muslims flexing their muscles and issuing diktats in Britain and their realising that the police and the government weren't going to hit them back, show them we weren't going to accomodate their alien demands to kill both free speech and the writer who used it as a precious gift (a book probably not one of the book burners had read - I have and regard it as brilliant). Nor were we going to imprison them and then send them back to their 'real' countries when they rioted and threatened to kill.

It was never again 'business as usual' and the chance to do these things and probably save the ship from sinking was lost and twenty years later the chickens are coming home to roost (flocks and flocks of them).

Bill M

Patrick,

You've revealed your total ignorance on a variety of issues.

Israel's free press
Palestine and Palestinians
A "few" radical hate preachers
The Torah (and the rest of the Old Testament)
The New Testament
Christian theology
Palestinian "Refugee Camps"
"Their homeland"
Palestinians "ethically cleansed"
Middle East History
Biblical history
Military history
and, oh, English grammar

Thanks for highlighting your "ignorance's"

Rob Fox

What on Earth is the Spectator's policy on posts here? Where did my post go?

I note there are posters calling for mass deportation & imprisonment of all Muslims and similar, "sensible" ideas like that...

Ah! I get it! The Tory rag is quite happy to allow posts from the lunatic fringe, but can't cope with someone pointing out that lefties & liberals have ALSO had enough of religious narcissists raging in the streets!

Betcha can't guess which religion's raging narcissists I'm referring to?

John Potgieter

Weak, weak, weak! First Prince Harry, now Geert Wilders. What a weak, supine people the British have become.

Ann

"Palestine is not illegally occupied’, are you sure about that? Where was the state of Israel before 1948?"

Exactly where it has been since 1000 BC.

"Have the Palestinian suddenly descended into Palestine from outer space? Was Palestine barren land?"

The 'Palestinians' were invented in 1964.

"How many UN resolutions have Israel defied, that call for a complete withdrawal from the occupied territories"

None. Look it up.

Ann

"I don't hate Muslims. I hate their book and their ideology."
He's clearly racist.

- Newsflash: Islam is not a race.

Ann

I see that the screeching antisemitic drivel about 'Israel massacring Arabs at Sabra & Shatilla' is rearing its ugly head again.

It was Arabs killing Arabs. Look it up.
But hey, you can't foam at the mouth about that sort of thing ... because you can't blame it on Joos.

Ann

"Why don’t you study the map of Palestine in 1948 with a map of Palestine now, and see which race of people is being ethnically cleansed?"

More sick drivel. There are more Arabs living in Israel now than in the entire Mandate area in 1948. Some 'ethnic cleansing'.

Ann

As to Ahmed's associates:
Remember and never forget, he threatened Parliament. This man should NOT be a member of the Lords.

John

Patrick, you're not very bright are you? Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini were all atheists, not Christians at all. Palestine did not exist as a state in 1948. There was a Greater Palestine Mandate, and this covered Jordan where most 'Palestinians' ended up. Israel has been attacked in three wars since 1948, and is under attack from Hamas and Hezbollah. I think they have shown remarkable restraint, and have offered a Palestinian State at least twice. The Palestinians prefer to kill to living in peace. I hope the Israelis clear out the Gaza strip for good next time.

Nick Chance

Jacqui Smith has simply proved Peter's Principle once more is alive and well in professional political circles, i.e. that they are promoted to the level of incompetence.
This isn't simply incompetent though, she is culpable of criminal neglect in allowing free speech to be so easily set aside.

Steve

This episode needs some perspective.

Firstly, if the UK Government is into appeasement, it has a funny way of showing it in maintaining a presence of thousands of UK troops in Islamic countries.

Secondly, Ms. Phillips fails to mention the numbers of Islamic Hate Preachers banned from the UK in relation to this one anti-Muslim speaker. This figure is around 80. Two of the most recent were Muslim cleric Dr Yusuf al-Qaradawi (who was refused entry in order to protect community cohesion) and the American Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan (for his anti-Semitic views). This also doesn't fit Ms. Phillips line of argument. But her neglect to even briefly mention these figures and episodes shows intellectual cowardice. Her argument should be strong enough to mention all sides of the story. Hers obviously isn't.

Thirdly: The French right-winger Le Pen (who also holds similar anti-Muslim views to Wilders) was allowed into the UK a few years ago.

Finally: after mentioning violence in Muslim protests, why isn't it mentioned here the number of protestors successfully tried, convicted and jailed for inciting racial hatred in the UK?

I disagree with Mr. Wilders being banned from the UK. I disagree with his views, but believe that he should have been able to express them. BUT his film WAS shown today.

Davo

When did the POMs turn into such yellow bellied cowards? If your politicians won't do their jobs then start protesting and go on strike!

Joe

In media appearances:

Foreign Secretary David Milliband condemns the Wilders film Fitna as promoting hatred and violence towards Islam.

Member of Parliament Keith Vaz supports the ban on entry to the UK by Wilders and also condemns the film as promoting hate and violence.

When asked by their interviewers if they have seen the film both answer that they have not!

How many other condemners of Mr Wilders as a man promoting hatred of and encouraging violence towards Muslims have not seen the film complained of and are ignorant of what his actual arguments on the issues are?

Margaret N

Well, I’ve seen it all now. Kelvin MacKenzie has just appeared on BBC1’s Question Time and says it’s right that Geert Wilders be banned from Britain. Once someone like Kelvin MacKenzie’s says something like that, you know the game’s up. This is the future. I was speechless. I didn’t expect anything better from the rest of the lemons on the panel, but not someone like him.

Keith Vaz was on BBC2’s Newsnight and says he hasn’t seen the film. I hope he wasn’t just saying that so he couldn’t take questions on what’s in it, because, of course, what so many people are saying they find ‘offensive’ about this film is what the Muslims in it say and do. Yet, apparently, all this is Geert Wilders’ fault.

Lord Ahmed was on Channel 4 News saying “I fear” not “I have received” death threats from the far Right because of Geert Wilders’ film. So we have a non-existent threat from non-existent people whose actions Lord Ahmed would blame on Geert Wilders anyway, just as he blames the actions and words of the Muslims in Fitna, not on the Muslims who do those things, but again on Geert Wilders. You get the picture. This is simply straight out of Franz Kafka’s The Trial.

Oh, and Maajid Nawaz, the co-head of the much feted Quilliam Foundation, was on Channel 4 News and Newsnight. He thought Wilders should not be banned from coming to Britain, but then went on to say this:

Jon Snow: Is the film offensive?
Maajid Nawaz: The film is offensive to me but then that’s the whole point. I would like to have the opportunity to debate that.
JS: But are there are points in it that are worth debating?
MN: I think there are points that are worth debating, because there are individuals using The Koran to justify violence.
JS: For example, the Madrid bombings are interspliced with a verse from The Koran.
MN: Of course they are. And Geert Wilders is guilty of the very same thing that Al Qaeda are guilty of, which is using The Koran to justify that interpretation. He happens to reject it; Al Qaeda promote it. But they’re two sides to the same coin and that’s why we’d like to debate these ideas. And he does not promote violence, that’s the difference between him and others [the others he refers to are preachers of hate who were allowed to enter Britain, which they were discussing earlier].

So Al Qaeda does what jihadists have done for centuries, use The Koran to justify violence, Geert Wilders merely points this out and is suddenly on a par with Al Qaeda. So for pointing out that somebody has used The Koran to justify their violence makes you guilty of wrongdoing. Go figure.

I suppose we should be grateful Maajid Nawaz didn’t take the line Chris Huhne did on the same show: that Geert Wilders incites violence and hatred.

This is nuts.

Zed

Even an ostrich pulls its head out of the sand once in a while, Steve. Wilders should have been allowed entry, though.

Augustus

This whole episode has been caused because a Muslim Lord Ahmed caused a public fuss about Wilders being invited to the House of Lords. As I've posted before, he's already been in Britain recently, and in the House. Nobody stopped him then. He was only invited a second time to answer any questions about the film and his views on how to deal with the kind of extremism which both our countries face. He is neither a fascist or, as the BBC likes to call him extreme right-wing. He is an ex liberal MP (VVD) who started his own party (Freedom Party) with views that appeal to all sections of pragmatic Dutch people. His party is growing more popular, but he will never rule Holland simply because the system doesn't work like that. He doesn't wear jackboots either! Much has been made about 'banning the Koran', but it was only ever meant as a debating point. He is a pragmatic and intelligent politician, just like Pim Fortuyn was. These people are desperately needed in the increasing socialist environment of the EU. democratic politics is never only just black or white, and it should certainly not be about stifling opinions. People like Milliband and Smith are the most crass tenth rate politicians a great country like Britain has ever managed to produce. Even Wilders' Dutch opponents, themselves a pretty shambolic bunch, now think that.

Linda Smith

Steve posted 12 Feb 11:27pm "..if the UK Government is into appeasement, it has a funny way of showing it in maintaining a presence of tbousands of UK troops in Islamic countries."

Steve, I doubt the UK Government wants to turn the UK into a battlefield like Afghanistan or Iraq!!! I expect it would prefer to appease our homegrown terrorists.

anglicus

Another movie about what islam is up to;
http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/

hadrian

What a pity they didn't let him in- if for no other reason than it'd have been 'interesting' to see what the Islamic response would have been after the disgraceful threats form one of the 'Lords' themselves. so this, anyway, is the craven Dhimmitude we've reduced ourselves to!! It bodes alarmingly for the future.

George

Not Great Britain's finest hour...

nancy knoppien.

England, you've lost your values, freedom and Courage.
Shame on you.

St Andrew

Great read there.

If Wilders was an Arabic MP who had been quoted as saying;

'I do not hate Christians, i hate their book and ideology'

- would they have given him the benefit of the doubt

- would Christians/anyone else have threatened that a 10,000 strong 'army' would encircle parliament?

- would that threat in itself, in that instance, have been classed as terrorism/incitement/whatever?

Seems to me that Brown maybe sporting a discrete Tazcat under his wavering toupe

logdon

I watched Question Time and suddenly realised (again) that those in power do not have a sodding clue. Not one of these pontificating idiots had even seen it but felt equipped to talk in the most lurid terms of Wilders. However this snippet from a friend of Ahmed reveals who can be let in and what they are allowed to spout.
I googled and this is the link to the speech Mark refers to
'The Truth Seeker - Jews and the Empire 23 Feb 2005 ... On Wednesday 23 February Israel Shamir spoke in a committee room in Britain's House of Lords, on the role of Jews in the service of empire.
www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2824 - 35k - '
Key it in it and try not to gasp at the naked antisemitic bile this man spouts. Straight from Mein Kampf it portrays Jews as perfidious schemers and destroyers of all they touch. It is quite disgusting that Ahmed can castigate Wilders yet he, himself invites a gross antisemite to speak. And no outcry!

Ordnance

So Fitna has been shown without any riots or violence, and it appears the Muslins cared so little about the film that they didn't bother to show up and protest.
A Member of Parliament from a friendly Democratic country is banned from the UK – by the same Government who appears to have forgotten to deport 20,000 foreign criminals at the end of their prison sentences.
The BBC reports “Mr Wilders defended his visit to the UK, saying he had visited two weeks ago and planned to return in the future ”
So his presence in the UK generated no violence two weeks ago – why are NEW Labour in such a flap?

Ann

"Melanie, as such a defender of free speech, I look forward to your equally heartfelt principled demands for elected politicians such as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and radicals such as Omar Bakri Mohammed to be given the right to air their views."

What nonsense. Iran doesn't have free elections. Furthermore, there is no requirement to allow those who call for genocide of the Jews to make those calls freely in a democratic country. Look up 'Weimar'.

Ann

"Whether Jews are a race appears to be up for debate"

There is no 'debate'. The Jews are an ethnicity and a nation.
Muslims aren't. That's called a 'religion'. Well, technically.

Ann

"There is no Jewish "race". There is no "distinct ethnic group". There are light skinned Nordic Jews and dark skinned Ethiopian Jews, Chinese Jews and Indian Jews. Many Jews were converts, particularly in Ancient Rome"

Complete fantasy. Genetic studies have proved that the Jews are a distinct ethnicity.

Gavin

“Today, Geert Wilders, a Dutch politician, is visiting London – at the invitation of Lord Pearson – for a private meeting.
We have received a threat of civil unrest from certain communities and even from another member of the House of Lords if Mr Wilders attends this private meeting, so let me be clear about our position on this.

Mr Wilders is an elected member of parliament of a fellow European Union country, who is guilty of no criminal offences whatsoever. We do not have the right to refuse him entry to the United Kingdom, nor do we wish to do so.

Mr Wilders brings dialogue. It may be dialogue some do not wish to hear, but the day that dialogue on controversial subjects was silenced in the United Kingdom would be a sad and dangerous day for democracy. It is a day that will not happen on the watch of the British Labour Party.

Mr Wilders lives with a constant threat to his life, though he has never incited any violence. We are being threatened with civil unrest if Mr Wilders is allowed to attend is meeting. We do not crumble under threats, we defend freedom of speech.

If people wish to protest peacefully about Mr Wilders' presence they are free to do so. If people, however, choose to be violent, we will meet their violence any necessary means to preserve civilised order and security in our society. We will protect those in our society who do believe in open debate and freedom of speech. Thank you.”

They did not say this and it is why they must be voted out at the soonest opportunity.

Herman The Hun

Congratulations to The Crazy Kingdom!

The "Verruecktes Koenigreich" formerly known as "Vereinigtes Koenigreich" has become a running gag in german language.

J P Maher

American comic Bob Hope was born in England. He once quipped "There'll always be an England - at least in Hollywood."
I was in Ireland last summer. One evening, watching the telly, my hosts remarked: "What a relief! My God, the BBC is actually broadcasting a show with English people in it."

Pot Head

Ann "I see that the screeching antisemitic drivel about 'Israel massacring Arabs at Sabra & Shatilla' is rearing its ugly head again."

Newsflash the poster never mentioned Israel The poster THX1138 said:

"I would also remind you that with some of the worst massacres of my life time happed in the forests of Srebrenica and in the Sabra and Shatila refuge camps of Beirut and they were perpetrated by Christians on Muslims."

Which is true and contains no mention of Israel. Can I suggest that you watch the excellent Israeli film "Waltz with Bashir" for a better prospective of what happend in those awful days in 1982 in Beirut.

Carl

People need to get a grip. There haven't been any anti-Jewish riots in the UK. There is no evidence that Lord Ahmed threatened to mobilise 10,000 Muslims, apart from raving "special interest" commentators.

Louis

I would be interested to know how many of the above 328 commentators have actually watched Fitna.

iq

Ann:"There is no 'debate'. The Jews are an ethnicity and a nation."
It isn't something I'm knowledgeable about myself, so I searched the net and found conflicting remarks. Hence my use of 'debate'.

Lee Laurie

Patrick......."Its(Israel) entire military is made in the USA and UK."
Now you really are talking B*****s,Pat.

Brett_McS

And where is the Conservative Party, widely expected to "come into" power next election? "No comment" is their principled response. Brilliant.

Wilhelm

'' Those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first make mad.''

''Its like a nation busily heaping up its own funeral pyre.''

Now I wonder who said that ?

William Frysian

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" Thomas Jefferson.

You are losing the war and don't even know it. yesterday I watched Question Time. They lied. It's sad to see that Chamberlain has defeated Churchill in the end.

Sam

I don't question any aspect of the Jewish holocaust, but the EU with Germany's backing is attempting to make holocaust denial a criminal offence in every EU country. I don't hear many freedom loving people complain about that !

The outrageous lies and distortions in this self-promoting Dutch opportunist's film are comparable to the lies that were perpetuated by Nazis to justify the Jewish holocaust. They serve no purpose other than to demonize and intimidate muslims.

It is Hate speech and should be silenced.

phil

Patrick -it seems I would have lost my bet -you did come back ,but only to continue to fuel your rage with lies in vast quantities -btw can you read Hebrew as you seem to think you are an expert on the Torah -I doubt it as you cannot even read English ,that is plain to see from the false information you have provided from clear historical sources -just for one Shatila was Arab on,Arab,all the world knows that apart from you .Penny and others have written on other nonsense's you have quoted so I will not waste more time on you -You will choke on your own bile if you cannot come to terms with the truth .your lies do not help us in resolving the very difficult problems we all face .

Mark Snape

I am ashamed to be an english subject we have no country any more it has been sold and all those in it are slaves or puppets winston churchill who i might add is no longer to be taught or spoken about in history to our children would be in uproar now. Has our nations people have no backbone anymore stand up and be counted voice your unrest and let the rest of the world know we are still a great fighting FREE nation!!!!

Linda Smith

Ann, you posted: "Genetic studies have proved that the Jews are a distinct ethnicity".

There is no "proof" in science. The aim of science is to falsify hypotheses, not to "prove" them.

What is your definition of a Jew? How do you define a Jew? Are you claiming that people identifying themselves as religiously and/or culturally Jewish are all direct descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel and their origin is identifiable in their genes?

The Ethopian Jews have failed that test.

Many people have converted to Judaism throughout the ages. In Ancient Rome huge numbers of "pagans" converted to Judaism. Do you exclude the descendants of converts from your genetic definition of who is a Jew?

I note that much of the research on which the argument for "Jewish genes" is based depends on transmission from father to son. Many Jewish women were raped by non-Jews throughout the ages during pogroms, etc. For that reason Jews recognise Jewish identity through the mother, not the father. Unlike Islam which punishes the woman for being raped, Judaism extends kindness to victims and recognises the children of mothers as Jewish regardless of the paternity. I said identity because I am talking about inclusion in a Jewish club which has its own precepts, moral values and rules of membership

Many people have married out or converted out of Judaism into other religions or non. Which of these people would you include in your definition of a Jew?

Are you advocating genetic testing of the entire population to see if they are carrying "Jewish genes" because they had a Jewish forbear, whether they identify themselves as Jewish or practise another religion?

What is this distinct Jewish gene you are talking about? "Jewish genes" is the sort of argument the Nazis used. Beware - you are playing into the hands of the eugenicists. That way lies the gas chamber.

Kiwi

Penny T: "Not all Muslims believe in the mad mullahs or wish to carry out those passages in The Koran cited by Fitna - only the fundamentalists do. For this to stop, Islam has to be reformed, the way that other religions have been reformed, which is why the film says in its finale: "For it is not up to me, but to Muslims themselves to tear out the hateful verses from The Koran." What is your issue with this? Would this not help peace?"
If only. Unfortunately, Islam cannot be reformed, to do so would mean altering or deleting much of the Qur'an, (much of which promotes violence against the unbelievers) which every Moslem believes are immutable revelations from Allah. Furthermore, the Qur’an tells Moslems that they are the best people raised for mankind and their religion is perfect. How can you improve something, which is perfect? You can't change the Qur'an. You can't reform it. All you can do is to reinterpret and, for example pretend, "slay the unbelievers wherever you find them" means something else. To add, delete, substitute, alter, or amend any part of the Qur'an would be an admission that Allah got it wrong, it 'aint gonna happen!

Kiwi

Sam: "The outrageous lies and distortions in this self-promoting Dutch opportunist's film are comparable to the lies that were perpetuated by Nazis to justify the Jewish holocaust." These are? Evidence please.

Neil Saunders

Sam

I oppose the criminalisation of holocaust denial, even though I believe such denial to be grievously mistaken at best, if not actually motivated by lying hatefulness. This is because I support freedom of thought and expression, just so long as there is no actual incitement to violence (or the proverbial shouting of "fire!" in a theatre where there is no fire).

The only "hate speech" in Wilders' Fitna (which I have watched several times) comes from the Koran itself, and from the Islamic preachers shown making inflammatory speeches, using the Koran as their rationale.

Would you care to catalogue all of the "lies and distortions" in Fitna that you allege, so that we may discuss them openly?

Linda Smith

To Sam: 13 Feb 09 12:05pm

It is not for the unelected, unaccountable, authoritarian EU organisation to dictate what we may or may not say. The British did not fight the Nazis in order for British values to be destroyed by the EU. How ironic that it is Germany that now particularly wishes to dictate what can or cannot be said all over Europe.

No speech should be silenced. People are well able to make up their own minds, as you have done on the question of the Holocaust, when free speech allows all protagonists to make their case. There are plenty of Muslims who are well able to counter Geert Wilders' film in a peaceful manner without resorting to violence, if they so wish.

On your line of reasoning, we would be able to say nothing at all, because whatever we said might demonize and intimidate somebody, Oh, the poor redheads.

Kevin Stroup

The stench of cowardice fills the air. Guns are banned. Speach is regulated. the government and business "work" together. The government treats the average citizen like they are peasants. Sounds like fascism to me.
What has happened to the country that produced Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher? My God, pull your collective, liberal heads out of your arses. You Brits are now guest in your own home. Very shortly you will be asked to leave.

rob

Out of interest, what lies are perpetuated in this film? I await with anticipation.

Eric Greer

Albion mortis est.

Carl

I take it that all the posters protesting about Wilders being denied entry to the UK would also approve of the Torah being banned in Europe?

FF

The sinister thing about Geert Wilders is that he quotes violent passages from the Koran and then projects that violence onto Muslims, to present them as an inferior race.

He says he hates Islam, not Muslims, but that's totally disingenuous.

If you think about it, it doesn't fit with our experience. My Muslim friends are no more violent than my non-Muslim ones.

Perhaps you don't know too many Muslims. How about your 60 year-old Church-going neighbour? Do you think she would entertain the idea of bashing babies' brains out on a rock, as she is exhorted to do by Psalm 137?

It's a toss-up as to whether the Koran or the Bible is more violent, according to these people: /skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/bible_quran.html.

Either way, the violent passages in the book have nothing to do with pious, kind-hearted believers of both traditions.

Noah Aron Bashi

Linda Smith you sound an angry woman calm down, I am shaking after I read your comment, I am Ethiopian Jewish and no one ever test me so I don't know what you are talking about, we could have a different colours, languages but we are all Jewish you like it or you don't like it,

Shalom!

Thomas, Germany

Welcome to the League of Arab States - dear UK.

phil

Unlike the ridiculous Keith Vaz I did watch fitna-it was horrible and I do not think it represents main stream Islam ,nevertheless alL the things depicted happened and Islam needs to confront that ,as do the Muslim population of this country.

Maajid Nawaz said clearly on newsnight that he wished for an opportunity to debate the film with Wilders ,and our cowardly government have denied Muslims the chance to say those atrocities are not done in our name ,nor do the preachers of hate represent our way of life .-

They have backed off in the face of extremists who threaten to take control of our streets ,our police fought the miners ,British working people with a just cause ,whether one agreed with it or not ,both in huge numbers ,and now have been made to run from confrontation with extremists not fit to lick the miners boots.This debate is one that has to be had not least on behalf of Muslims who wish to live in peace in our country .We have been divided even further by this appalling ruling by Jaquie Smith.

Ann

Pot Head -
try again. My comment was not directed at Numberplate but at Patrick, who certainly repeated the antisemitic blood libel about Sabra & Shatilla, among several other lies.

Ann

Linda, don't be so bloody ridiculous. I never mentioned a genetic test on every Jew - this is a figment of your overactive imagination.

I emphasised that the Jews are a nation, NOT a 'race'. Nations sometimes absorb people from different ethnicities, via a number of possible processes. It doesn't change the fact that the Jewish nation consists of people with some ethnic affinity to each other - and one that originated in the ME (not, for example, around the Black Sea, i.e. Khazars, as some antisemites claim).

The genetic similarity between Yemenite and Polish Jews was demonstrated through genetic studies.

I am happy for you that you've read Karl Popper. Nevertheless, genetic markers have been found in Yemenite and Polish Jews that could not have been there had European Jews been 'Khazars' (who were a Turkic people). This is consistent with the west-to-east movement of European Jews over some 1500 years.

Ann

iq -
Wikipedia et al contain a lot of rubbish - anyone can post there ;-)

Ann

"I watched Question Time and suddenly realised (again) that those in power do not have a sodding clue"

Quite true. All it takes to be a 'Labour' minister these days is to have an IQ above room temperature (in celsius), and to be keen to join the pigs around the trough (think 'expenses for second homes').

phil

ANN IS BACK IN ALL HER GLORY where have you been .you could have dealt with carl far better than me -now he really is one that does not like us ,but he is like a virus .no cure .,and Linda is very sensible lady .

Linda Smith

Dear Noah Aron Bashi: From what I have read (not the original research) there was some genetic research done on the Y chromosome which is only found in males. According to that research, the Y-chromosome signatures of the Yemenite Jews are similar to those of other Jewish and Semitic populations. In contrast, the paternal gene pool of Ethiopian Jews more closely resembles that of non-Jewish Ethiopian men.

Ann raised the spectre of "jewish genes" not me. I don't think Jewish identity is a matter of genes. For me, it is a matter of religion and culture. So stop shaking!!!

Andrew

That England, that was wont to conquer others,
Hath made a shameful conquest of itself.

It's a catastrophe.

Verity

FF, could you be a dear and look up the word 'race' in the dictionary? A religion is not a race.

BTW, where is David Cameron in all this? Surely a Conservative Leader should have something to say about freedom of speech and the unjustified expulsion of an elected member of another EU country's parliament from our country?

Paul

FF, the threats in the Quran are for all times. The reference in Psalm 137 to the bashing of babies brains is specific to the Edomites around 587 BC, who, after Jerusalem had been destroyed by the Babylonians, continued to plunder the city and kill the inhabitants. Unless you are an Edomite from 2500 years ago, you can relax. These sorts of comparisons between the Bible and the Quran are simply disingenuous. There are numerous places in the Quran where Mohammed called for people to be killed. Show me one place in the Bible where Jesus called for this. You won't be able to.

John Montgomery

Melanie - did you get my Lament for a Doomed Nation? Or did you decide not to post it?

Carl

By the way, why no mention of the thief Madoff? He caused the death of a brave soldier called Bill Foxton. Will you, scarcely articulate phil, condemn this thief? If not, you condone a thief.

davod

"Any special relationship these days is between America and Israel." Not for long. The sepcial relationship will be between The USA and Islam.

"Oh please! so what this guy was elected democratically, so was Hitler. I've seen the film and it only aim is to forment hatred for muslims. If he is allowed to come here to spread his hatred so should every other racist, bigot, facist and anti-semites."

The film shows Muslims quoting the Quoran. The "Moderate" Muslims should use it to say they do not subscribe to te view shown. Instead, a Muslim Lord threatens to bring 10,000 shrieking moderates to protest if Wilders is allowed to speak to Parliament.

DaveP

We in the West assume that all religions are more or less the same, and all share the same perspectives on life, liberty and happiness. This is an arrogant view, and assumes that whatever we think, must be universal. It is also patronising. Here is a link to Raymond Ibrahim's testimony to the House Armed Service Committee, USA.

Quote:"Before attempting to formulate a long-term strategy to counter radical Islam, Americans must first and foremost understand Islam, particularly its laws and doctrines, the same way Muslims understand it--without giving it undue Western (liberal) interpretations. This is apparently not as simple as expected: all peoples of whatever civilizations and religions tend to assume that other peoples more or less share in their worldview, which they assume is objective, including notions of right and wrong, good and bad. We need to understand Islamic tenets the way Muslims see them".

http://armedservices.house.gov/pdfs/TUTC021209/Ibrahim_Testimony021209.pdf

Ibrahim, like Patrick Sookhdeo and Ibn Warraq, understand Islam from within. They cannot be "Taqqiyad".

Please read it all.

Michael B

What is, isn't, what isn't, is, and so we be, contentedly. Epitaph, epithet, whatever.

Sam

Neil Saunders (and others)

Now that you've watched Fitna several times perhaps you'd like to study the Koran several times too - in its proper historical context.

You might discover that the word "infidel" is NEVER applied to Christians or Jews. The infidels in the Koran were the idolaters of Mecca whose livelihood was threatened by the new monotheistic religion and who were actively engaged in massacring the followers of Muhammad wherever they could find them. In the context of this raging war, Muhammad seems to have condoned preemptive strikes against his enemies. Not a lot unlike the so-called "Bush Doctrine", except the rationale was a lot stronger! Ironically, in one verse Muhammad advises his persecuted followers to seek shelter with Christians and Jews to whom he refers to as "The people of the book".

The "Kill all infidels" lie is one that is consistently peddled by the likes of the BNP, Wilders and ironically, the fringe of Islamic hate preachers who have their own anarchic agenda. As one Middle Eastern stand up comedian once said, going to Sheikh Hamza to get the view of the Islamic world is like talking to the Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan to gain insight into the Christian West.

In general, whenever one finds oneself carried away on a wave of Islamophobia, I think it is helpful to remind oneself that 6 million Jews were not gassed and incinerated by Muslims.

Linda Smith:
You say "No speech should be silenced".
So presumably you would defend the making of famous Nazi anti-semitic propoganda films such as "The Eternal Jew". Because, as you state, "people can make up their own minds".

Well, they sure did in Nazi Germany.

Geoff Hale

Sorry, TD of Australia, perhaps you haven't noticed but those who say 'conform or get out!' are shouted down and marginalised by the political and intellectual 'elite' here in Australia too. On Queensland's Gold Coast, the city council just approved an Islamic school provocatively located next door to a Christian church against widespread objections by the local people. The city's mayor, Ron Clarke (the former Olympic runner), told a Dubai newspaper that the objectors were 'bigots'. Meanwhile, just last weekend while selling at a car boot sale a kilometre from the Gold Coast's biggest mosque, I was warned by a Muslim to remove a framed art poster of a topless woman 'because you'll find it's illegal in the local community'. Australia is not insulated from the suicidal insanity of Britain, it's merely a little behind the game.

An American

I notice some of the American bloggers are scolding Brits for their cowardice when it comes to protecting their freedom of speech.

Yet the far-left socialist Democrats are doing the same thing in the US...wait until they vote in the 'Fairness Doctrine'. It is designed to destroy all conservative radio and TV...It's not enough that they have 90% of newspaper and TV news on their liberal side...they must have complete mind control and will stop at nothing to get it.

Marion Nunes

please sign the petition if you believe in freedom of speech. http://www.petitiononline.com/wilders/petition.html

Lizzy

I lived for a few years in London in the 'eighties and keep in touch with a good friend there. After reading Melanie's articles on the anti-Semitic attacks and the universities caving in to intimidation, I emailed asking how all this was for her, saying I didn't recognise the place. In reply, I was told I was only hearing the bad stuff, and got a lecture on local groups who do good deeds for the environment. I really don't know what to say in reply.... Has the UK gone completely potty?

Lizzy

FF: Have you seen Fitna? Wilders doesn't have to "project [the Koran's exhortations to violence] on Muslims". All he had to do was show readily available footage of Muslims violently obeying the Koran.

True, not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists these days are Muslim.

Mustapha Bunn

"Where is Cameron?"...he will be as big a disaster as liebour has been if/when his mob get voted in.
Time to look outside the box in Britain I'm afraid.

KitKat

The Spectator is part of the Telegraph Group, I believe. Today, Saturday, Charles Moore has posted yet another bit of dhimmitude over this disgraceful affair at the Daily (Saturday and Sunday, too) Dhimmigraph, all about a religion of peace hijacked by a few extremists and what a 'nasty' film Wilders has made in exposing the verses of the Koran calling for (and mandating, in fact) violence against all non-Moslems. Is Moore a SIR yet? He's doing his best to ingratiate himself with the govt and the future caliphate.

Anyhow, you can read Wilders' speech which he was planning to give to the House of Lords after the showing of FITNA and the transcript of the questions asked in the House of Lords about this denial of freedom of speech at:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3130

Not one newspaper in England appears to have this speech on its pages.

Ann

I didn't raise any 'spectres'. If Linda wants to live in some fantasy world and dispute the fact that most Jews are related to each other (ever heard of interrelated Jewish families going back many hundreds of years, Linda? In fact, ever heard of Jewish families? Jewishness is more than abstract 'culture'), so be it.
I can see why the ridiculous phil, who always obsessively screams and shouts about me in uppercase, like the schoolyard bully he is, thinks you are 'sensible'.

Gruntson

Pork-barrel politics: it is disgusting watching the scramble for Muslim votes in this country -

Chris Huhne - an apology for a headless chicken.

The tory woman on question time - has she just got out of primary school?

Kelvin MacKenzie - I doubt he has got one brain cell to rub between his fingers.

and countless other spineless gutless wonders.

Welcome to the UK's political class cowering in the corner of a political funk.

Carl

phil, perhaps your dear friend Ann can answer my question: Does she agree that the Torah should be banned from Europe?

Vauxhall

Miliband and Smith are not fit for purpose, are not conducive to the public good, and are a threat to public security.

They should be laughed off the UK's political stage.

Barry Larking

Reasons to be cheerful. If Ahmed had kept his mouth shut how many would have heard or registered Wilders visit? Few. How many would have heard of "Fitna"? Fewer, probably. How many would have seen it online? Many fewer.

Well done Ahmed the Never Elected!

Steadily more and more British people are echoing Peter Finch's character in the film "Network" –
"I'm as mad as Hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!"

Well done Smuggled in by the Back Door Ahmed!

Unfortunately, there is a bad side to this also. Support for the BNP is migrating out of the nuttier fringes of Essex and the extremists seem to gain support from the extremists in this funny old game.

The whole polictical class needs to wake up. (Tory spokesperson Dame Pauline Neville-Jones has said on BBC television that "where British foreign policy angers Moslems it should be looked at", i.e. sell your friends short; do not kid yourself the next Tory government will be much different.)

Fight back. Deport trouble makers instantly – they can appeal from outside the UK. Close down Islamist front organisations. Pull the government welcome mat from under the feet of various 'Islamic' spokesmen who in fact speak for no one but their paymasters in Iran. Enforce the law. End segregation on religious grounds in state education. Make no public monies available for such schools at all. In short act now and prevent far worse in the near future.

Kiwi

Following on from Paul's comments, I think it fair to say that, in simple terms, the Bible tends to be a collection of stories intertwined with a chronicle of historical events, whereas the Qur'an is a book of instructions. The Qur'an gives many instructions on the living of life day to day, but little on moral issues.

phil

carl if she hasn,t already got to you I promise you she will scorch your ears ,she is not my friend either but by hell she definitely will not be yours-i never agree with her choice of words but her direction is usually right -i can,t wait .Ann don,t let me down :)

Jan

Isn't it now time for us to ask some very basic questions on the Objectives of Muslims and the essence of Islamism. The God I know is a God of Unconditional Love, Mercy, Charity, All Forgiving and all embracing. The people who have radicalised and politicised their religion of Islam are trying to conquer the World. I insist that they find solutions to their problems in the East first before they spread their cultural and social differences to the West. I am a God fearing Catholic and will love my neighbour as myself, however I will not accept the preaching or the dual standards of Koranic or Politically inspired doctrine. Just smell the coffee and wake up to the real God, lover and creator of all his children. My prayer is a prayer for Peace in this World for all Nations. That Peace has to be in your own Heart first, this is a Peace that is shown in the Love of all Mankind.

Jono

THX1138: “Comparing a book that billions hold sacred to Hitler’s murderous tract Mein Kampf seems to me to suggest that those who believe in the Koran are somehow like Nazis, and an all-out war against them would be justified.”

No it does not suggest that at all. If non-Muslims are not allowed to say things like: ‘Make war on the unbelievers’, why should Muslims be saying it? Mein Kampf clearly has words that go beyond the pale as far as the Netherlands is concerned so why should an exception be made? Oh, because The Koran is a book “billions hold sacred”, so it’s not a question of morality, it’s a question of numbers. Have enough followers and dub yourself a religion and you’re in business.

Apart from which, Wilders has revoked his request that The Koran be banned and this is reflected in Fitna. It ends thus: “For it is not up to me, but to Muslims themselves to tear out the hateful verses from The Koran.”

THX1138: “Geert Wilders method is to expose the intolerance of Muslims by deliberately provoking them.” Wilders has not provoked anybody. The jihad has been going on for centuries, terror is but the latest weapon in its armoury. All Wilders has done is told the truth.

THX1138: “If they react to his insults,” - what insults? They’re not his words, THX1138. I know you find that incredibly difficult to deal with because it exposes the folly of your position, but that’s just tough.

THX1138: “he can then claim that they are a threat to our way of life.” He hasn’t said ‘they’. He says the ideology is a threat to our way of life. Why is it OK to question other ideologies but not Islam? This has all been going on well before his film was produced. There’s no ‘if’ about it. It is centuries old.

“He is no hero of free speech but rather a typical cynical bully boy racist politician of the far right” - where’s the evidence of this, THX1138 ? Where has he threatened people? Or physically attacked them. He is the one being bullied to the extent that he has to live under police protection.

“Also I'm not trying to hide anything otherwise I wouldn't be on this bog arguing with you would I.” You most certainly are hiding behind false and phoney arguments. You like to accuse Geert Wilders of all sorts of things without a shred of evidence in the hope some mud will stick.

‘I could of course pick out quotations from The Bible or The Torah that could easily be described as "hate speech".’ THX1138, will you tell us where all the Jewish and Christian suicide bombers are? These religions do not have any moral equivalence whatsoever.

There is only one major religion that wants all others to grovel before it. That’s why the religion has a concept for it: dhimmitude. And explain why the British secret service don’t have 2,000 radical Muslims under surveillance because of terror plots but not 2,000 radical Christians.

THX1138: “I would also remind you that with some of the worst massacres of my life time happed in the forests of Srebrenica and in the Sabra and Shatila refuge camps of Beirut and they were perpetrated by Christians on Muslims.” And? Who’s stopped you from talking about that? No one. So why do you want people to stop talking about the global jihad?

THX1138: “Personally I think all religions are all as bad each other and no doubt we could trade atrocities in the name of religion all night.”

No, all religions are not the same. Some religions, which allowed themselves open to scrutiny, reformed themselves. Only when this man Wilders asks that this process be done with Islam by saying “For it is not up to me, but to Muslims themselves to tear out the hateful verses from The Koran”, you try to smear him.

Albert Yome

Straw is a spineless, pathetic excuse for a man, as is the Zimbabwean, Peter Hain. Both stabbed us in the back when they attempted to sell out by handing sovereignty of Gibraltar against the democratically expressed wishes of its people. We're still here! One need only go back about twenty years or so to see that they were card carrying communists, etc. They loathe Britain and all it used to stand for. They hate freedom and that's why they have introduced a surveillance system that Josef Stalin would have envied.

In 21st Century Britain, Winston Churchill would've been locked up for speaking his mind. If only Orwell could see us now!

When Straw came to Gibraltar, he cowered as his car was pelted with just one or two eggs. He fled, never to return again. If Hain ever dared come back here, he'd arrive by Club Class and depart via our sewage system.

Augustus

Albert Yome, I agree with you about Winston Churchill, who said in 1938: "I foresee and foretell that the policy of submission will carry with it restrictions upon the freedom of speech and debate in Parliament, on public platforms, and discussions in the Press, for it will be said -
indeed, I hear it said sometimes now - that we cannot allow the Nazi system of dictatorship to be criticised by ordinary common English politicians. And do not suppose that this is the end. This is only the beginning of the reckoning. This is only the first sip, the first foretaste of a bitter cup which will be proffered to us year by year, unless by a supreme recovery of moral health and martial vigour we arise again and take our stand for freedom as in the olden time."

Penny

As has been said already, had Wilders been attempting to ban the Bible, he would have been allowed into the UK.

The issue with Islam is that it is clearly not just a religion but also a political ideology.

We need to offer up no links to relevent sources to prove this point; it is more than evident in Islamic countries such as Iran, Saudi, parts of Africa - and shortly, Gaza. The goal of the extremists is to rule, and rule via Sharia. It is, in itself, a political movement, and we ignore this fact at our peril.

Wilders is against facsism. His father fled from Nazi Germany and no doubt, this has had some influence on his views which are anti-fascist. He should not have been banned on the say-so of one, unelected parlimentarian who does not look to preserve unity, but to support his own Muslim community.

We need to address the intelligentsia who insist on maintaining that Western logic and views are those of the entire world.

Neil Saunders

Sam

For the record, I have read the Koran several times, in different translations.

Your "infidel" quibble is a distraction from the real point, which is that the verses used as a justification for Islamist acts of terror actually appear in the Koran.

Incidentally, I recommend the excellent symposium "What The Koran Really Says", edited by Ibn Warraq (Prometheus Books, 2002), together with various books by Robert Spencer (and his excellent series of videos on YouTube, "Islam: What The West Needs To Know").

The game's up, Sam!

Dave M

This theme was raised on BBC's Question Time and, just as I imagined before switching it on, it turned out to be a farce. There wasn't a single guest (excluding possibly one) who dared to openly defend the right of the Dutch politician to at least debate his film. All we had was the usual scenario of each guest "deploring racism". The audience was likewise made up of the usual crowd the BBC tends to attract. Every time the Dutchman was accused of racism they all dutifully cheered.
I agree there are certainly muslims who read the Koran who are tolerant and don't in any way endorse terrorism. However, the question that should be raised is why are events such as 9/11, Bali, Madrid, Beslan, India all carried out in the name of Islam? Such a simple fact just has to be taken into consideration so it's not good just burying our heads in the sand and refusing to debate the issue. What's far worse is that by refusing to allow this Dutchman the chance to debate his film it now appears as though the Government is afraid and has something to hide. People will now be viewing the film on the internet and will believe all muslims are terrorists - period. This certainly isn't helping moderate muslims at all.

Linda Smith

Johann Hari's Opinion piece in The Independent 28 Jan 09 "Why Should I respect these oppressive religions?" in which he wrote: "A religious idea is just an idea somebody had a long time ago, and claimed to have received from God. It does not have a different status to other ideas; it is not surrounded by an electric fence none of us can pass...All people deserve respect, but not all ideas do."

An Indian newspaper, the Statesman, reprinted his article. Yesterday's Independent carries another article by Johann Hari from which I quote: "That night, four thousand Islamic fundamentalists began to riot outside their offices, calling me, the editor, and the publisher to be arrested -or worse. They brought Central Calcutta to a standstill. A typical supporter of the riots, Abdus Subhan, said he was prepared to lay down his life, if necessary, to protect the honour of the Prophet.." The editor and the publisher have been arrested and charged "deliberately acting with malicious intent to outrage religious feelings." (read both articles on-line at The Independent)

Is this a taste of things to come in Britain?

Penny

Everywhere I look there are calls for people to unite against the intelligentsia who are destroying the UK.

But how?

When the National Front raised its ugly head, Margaret Thatcher said the way to defeat them was through the ballot box.

'Call Me Dave' Cameron's official line on the Wilders incident was 'No Comment'. There appears to be an empty space where a backbone should be, 'Dave'.

Even the LibDem's, whose every word is booed during PMQ, had a view and were not afraid to voice it.

Shame on you David. You cannot continue to hide behind 'style'.

Donna Gardier

Jono @12.45 Jan 14

Thanks Jono it is heartening to be able to read posts like yours. Whilst I'm at it thanks also to lots of other diligent bloggers (not only on this thread but on the many other compelling threads Melanie generates) who put their skill with words and useful knowledge and valuable effort into keeping a light at the end of the tunnel. I for one am very grateful.

Sam

An American:

You say that 90% of news media in the US is on the "liberal side"! Wow Wee!

So, in other words, the combined conservative apparatus of a multi-million dollar operation like Fox News and the 24-hour right-wing hate-fest put out by the likes of Limbaugh (whose new contract deal of 400 million dollars breaks all previous records for any broadcast medium!) accounts for only 10% of the total American media divide!

Golly gosh! You must have a HUGE media!

phil

SAM it is not the Koran that is the real problem it is the application by stupid bigoted idiots that decide how to apply the words of your prophet .Those people are not killing infidels ,they are killing Christians, Jews and Muslims regardless of what they think or do .You certainly do not walk down the street in fear of the people of the Bible ,You are utterly confident that we will not try to blow you up , behead you or stone you to death ,your hands will remain attached to your arms if you steal a few sweets ,need I go on ?
------.Wilders suggests the Muslims have a choice to cast aside the teachings of the lunatics that deface a religion which wishes to promote peace and goodwill to all -You may find Fitna unfair as regards normal Muslims but he is not criticising them -it is the abu hamzas of this world and his evil minded followers .I cannot speak for anybody else but I would hazard a bet that the overwhelming majority of non Muslims would prefer to get on with their lives in peace with the ordinary Muslim families who are being terrorised by these lunatics .--------

If you are a Muslim you are not being threatened by any of us ,we do not seek to close your Mosques or stop your worship ,your universities are not blockaded ,you can say more or less whatever you like -it is us who are being attacked and it needs to stop before the west says it has had enough .
Well said Jono although thx1138 is not one of the bad guys .

EC

Jono @12:45pm,14Feb09

Welcome! I hope that you stick around awhile. However would suggest that you adopt the name 'Hercules' obtain a bigger shovel if you intend to clean these stables.

J Alwi Saleh

Well done Geert, I have to judge the film i am muslim, it is true, Geert is hero for muslim like me who like freedom, I learn many things in Fitna I did not know before, I think after watching this film a lot of muslims included me are going to think for a change
Thank you

Lizzy

Linda Smith: It is bad enough the riot and arrests of the editor and publisher happened in India. Especially as the country is being transformed by development which will make life so much better for many people there. Something fundamentalists do not wish to happen.

FF

Paul, I agree with you that Jesus was a prophet entirely of peace. There are plenty of violent passages in the Bible, as in the Koran, however. Whether the Bible tends to be more historical and the Koran more prescriptive, is not something I know enough about to add to your comments.

I stick with my observation, though, that Muslims you meet are no more violent than anyone else, despite Wilder's insidious attempts to say they are.

A number of people have commented on whether Muslims are a race. If I understand their argument correctly, Muslims are not a race, therefore racism against them is semantically impossible. By implication, we can declare open season on them.

Apart from the morality of this argument, I don't see its usefulness. In any case, the two dictionaries I looked up online have definitions for race as follows:
"A class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics"
"A group of people who share the same language, history, characteristics, etc:
LITERARY The British are an island race"
Muslims would seem to be covered by these definitions.

Caro

To J Alwi Saleh: I read your comment of 7.25pm on 14 Feb with interest. I am aware that many Moslems are unfamiliar with what the Koran actually says and which verses have relevance . The following is a link to an article in which the author discusses each verse of the Koran quoted, in order of its appearance in Wilder's film FITNA, and also lists 16 authoritative translators (Arabic and European) of the Koran in full with regard to each quoted verse. You will see from this exercise that, contrary to comments by both Moslem bodies in Britain and the Left, that Wilders has correctly stated the Koran's verses.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020721.php
"Does FITNA misquote the Qur'an?"
April 19, 2008

boppo

For a Dane as me, it has been a surprise, that Geert Wilders was denied to enter your country. Also very disappointing.
UK has always been standing for freedom, regarding your admirable courage during the second World War. My hope is, that the people of UK is not standing behind the decision of your government.

Adam B.

Sam, what are the "lies" in Wilders film?

An American

Sam,
90% was an approximate...

Here is a list of the liberal, Obama-worshipping US media.

ABC,NBC,CBS,MSNBC,CNBC,CNN,PBS (which is supported by US taxpayers) versus conservative FOX...need I say more?

Then you have the all of the US socialist newspapers...which are in big trouble because conservative are no longer buying their bulls..t, The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Chicago Times, The Seattle Times, Albuquerque Journal, Philadelphia, etc. etc. versus The Wall Street Journal(conservative editorial page only).

We have 5-6 Conservative radio hosts. Limbaugh, Hannity, Ingram, Levine, and few others. The private funded liberal far-left radio stations can't make it...no one wants to listen to their lying drivel.

Why are you so angry? You should be happy...Obama and the far-left socialist Congress are going to force all conservative media off the airways...then you liberal pee-brains can be led down the garden path to ruin. Enjoy your prison.

david skinner

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=28&version=31

Denise

As an American who used to love to visit England along with many friens, we have all watched your country decend into an Islamic nation. never will we visit again! I am so glad we had so many trips there before London became Londonstan! All you Brits need to stand up and stop this immigration!

Nirmah C

FF, the other day I went to a restaurant and the owner ask me if I am muslim, I said yes, then he give me a discount, if I would of say I am Christian or atheist he would not do that, yes the muslims now a days think they are from one race it doesn't matter if they are from East Africa or from Far East, that is why we are having problems in this world, if anyone say something about muslim individual who is not behaving well they get angry and protest, assault innocent people, damage shops and business because they think someone say something about muslim race or the prophet, the muslims want to stick together in schools, in the streets, they are behaving like gangs, why a man from Pakistan have to worry about Chechnya when he can worry his own problems? what his life get to do with the people in Afghanistan? why the Bangladeshi and Somalis are worrying what is happening in Palestine etc? off course they think they are from the same race and they have to stick together even if they don't speak the same languages and they don't come from the same places

stanley Jerusalem

Nirmah C - We had the same thing with the Boilermakers Union and the Footplate Mens' Union in the 60's and 70's expressing solidarity with their Arab [and subsequently Palestinian] bruvvers instead of looking after their own Bruvvers' affairs.
Mutatis mutandis, as the French would say.

stanley Jerusalem

Oh yes, and if they think they have to stick together why are their 'brothers' still rotting in Gazan Refugee Camps after 60 years. Jordan killed thousands of them.Lebanon had thousands killed by them. Egypt doesn't want them. They are obviously very nice people, these 'Palestinians'.

Keith Green

It is time for Great britain to stand up for its rights - We are a Christian God fearing people! or are we? LET US NOT GIVE UP OUR HERITAGE IN CHRIST.
Enough is enough As the previous Australian President said if you don't like it go home to your own country.

J Cross

Good on yer Melanie! I can't think of a better way of putting it. And, as someone said earlier "It isn't going to be as heart-breaking to say goodbye to England in the not too distant future as I thought it would be". The only worry I have is for my chlidren and their children. What have we done to them?!

Sam

An American:

"90% was an approximate"

You're being droll now. Right?

And please stop projecting YOUR hate and anger on others. It's an old republican "debating" device and by now it's worn thread-bare.

Keith Green:

Australia has never had a president. It's not a republic.

Suffolkbor

Dave M :
BBC Question Time should be renamed "Waste Of Time ".
The whole programme is rigged to portray the usual left/liberal bias .
The audience is specially selected to reflect this and I would strongly suspect , having seen the questionnaire that any individual not displaying the required left/liberal attitudes
simply do not get to be a part of the studio audience .
Awkward questions and boat rocking are definitely off the agenda .
Surely we deserve a better programme than this ?

Linda Smith

Ann continues to press her eugenicist hypothesis that there are "Jewish genes" in her comment of 14 Feb 9:33 am: "....ever heard of interrelated Jewish families going back many hundreds of years...?

Ann's point is irrelevant. All groups with particular common interests prefer their offspring to marry within their own club, notably Royalty, the Upper classes, Christians, Moslems, and Uncle Tom Cobleigh and All. They all have interrelated families going back many hundreds of years.

People migrate, marry in, marry out, convert, adopt, rape. If we were to test the population of the UK we might be surprised to find just how many of them have "Jewish genes" - David Beckham and Boris Johnson for starters have Jewish forbears but do not identify themselves as Jewish. Nor does columnist Nick Cohen whose paternal greatparents were Jewish but whose son married out. (see his current article @ Jewish Chronicle).

I see from Phil's comment on another thread that you Ann do not identify yourself as Jewish. May I suggest you have a DNA test to find out if you are correct or not according to your definition of who is a Jew.

Judaism, like all other isms is an ideology not a physical characteristic encoded in genes like skin colour. Anne I recommend you to read books such as "Not in our Genes" and "Lifeslines-life beyond the Genes" by neuroscientist Steven Rose.

Carl

I just love it when folks try making up Muslim names to post. I might try Isocks S'Mellie which will be about as convincing.

Americo carvalho

Coward? Moi! Look at this lot.

Jesus of Nazareth, Mickey Mouse, Julius Cesar, Genghis Kan, the Queen, Winnie the Poo, Churchill, Alexander the Great, Sir Thomas Moore, Moses, Hitler, Henry the VIII, St. Paul, Stalin, Abraham, Augustus, Solomon, Mao Tse-Tung, Buddha, Che Guevara Goofy...

Isn't time Hollywood, Bollywood, Pinewood, anybody gave us an insight on "The life and times of.." you know, the missing one.

AC - London

david skinner

Are there views that are even too politically incorrect for this site? I have posted at least three and all that has managed to get past the censors was one link, like a solitary piece of driftwood.

One more try:

Britain has only two choices, either succumb to Sharia or reinstate the Bible and Ten Commandments. There is no other choice.
Winston Churchill, in 1898 wrote his famous analysis of Islam. I whole heartedly concur with it but not with the conclusion, which is that but for our superior technology Islam would overrun us. Well Winston, they are overrunning us and no amount of technology can save us. Neither can the superiority and enlightenment of the liberals and secularists. Muslims are clever enough to use our own humanistic philosophy and especially our human rights laws to work against us. They push us in the direction we will naturally fall.

Islam is a political ideology driven by a spiritual force and only a spiritual force will overcome it. We are involved in an intense spiritual battle.

Muslims must be rubbing their hands with glee as they see Britain discarding and rubbishing the only weapon that can overthrow them. The Bible. Why on earth do people think that the Bible is banned from so many Islamic countries, if not because they recognise its power.

I suppose I ought to be thankful that my previous post, a link to Deuteronomy 28, managed to get washed up, like a message in a bottle. The first of the Ten Commandments says that we must not worship any other god than the triune Yahweh, the God of Abraham, for this would be idolatrous. We have become idolatrous by allowing Prince Charles to embrace Islam and proclaim himself the defender of all faiths. Deuteronomy 28 tells us unmistakably the consequences of following that path.

Alistair Campbell’s arrogant and hollow claim that in Britain we don’t do God may well be true. But God will do Britain, unless we give him His rightful place in running this country and our lives.

Yuval in Scotland

re quoting verses out of context.
There is no need to ban the entire Torah (or the NT, Koran, etc.), just because some verses. However, any verse which demands cautious perusal in order not to be understood as an incitement might be interpreted incorrectly by simple readers, and therefore should be dealt with carefully. For example, the Torah is not against homosexual lovers but against homosexual rapists, but St. Paul and Prophet Muhammad interpreted a simple act of love as an abomination. The same is with presenting Eve as a demonic seducer which led to witch hunting and burning until not so long ago. Geert Wilders might have quoted verses out of context, but so do terrorists who find justification for their acts in their holy book.
Because people take faith and religion very seriously, such texts containing controversial verses should be put under national supervision, be rewritten and even censored.

stanley Jerusalem

David Skinner - Perhaps you might like to look at ALL of Deuteronomy 28, the curses as well as the blessings. The curses are truly terrifying, more so when one considers that every single one of them has come to pass. BTW a bit of advice. If you choose to quote the Ten Commandments, then the first one is "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the Land of Egypt out of the House of Bondage". Number 2 is "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me"
If that wasn't number one then the rest is nonsense.You have to believe and accept one to be in line to accept number two. Of course if you are'nt Jewish then you are just cherry-picking, aren't you?

"Disgusted of Ditchford"

Carl, we all know that your own "name" is made up. How dumb do you think we are?

phil

sam I see you are continuing your ignorant behaviour -I addressed you a a little earlier and you have chosen to ignore my comments in order to attack someone else -I understand it was difficult for you to comment on my words ,but you really ought to try if you are to gain any respect for your views here .

An American

david skinner,

Thank you for your insightful comments. I'm glad you kept trying.

Sam,
You're such a pathetic fellow. I won't waste anymore of my effort on you.

OLiwagino Alefava Yihiri

Ann and Linda Smith, you know Judaism can be ethnicity, religion, culture and everything, here the Jewish people are originated from middle East, i hope you don't mind I say this but the real Jewish look a like Brazilians i think because many of them are mix, you could see many Jewish or Arabs who are mix, Judaism originated from middle east just like the muslims, and the real original Jewish people are the ones who have the Mediterranean look, black curl hair, high cheeks they are quite pretty people they are mix of Arabs, Africans, Europeans etc the other ones who are from East and north Europe are also mix they are Europeans and Asians that is why they call them Caucasians, I think some of them also have Africans from north Africa or Spanish who knows? there are blonds with ethnic eyes like Algerian or Yemen, the Abyssinian Jewish are also mix they are Africans and Semitics, everyone is mix here but some people don't realise because the only thing they see is two colours black & White

No, there is more then that...

BullCats

David Skinner tells it as it is. I wholeheartedley agree. God help Scotland - we even have MSPs attacking Israel in our mickey mouse parliament; look what happened to the Bank of Scotland (HBOS) after they kicked out Pat Robertson because of his non PC views!!

david skinner

Stanley, you are absolutely right, God authenticates himself by being able to predict the future and sure it enough it worked out exactly the way he said it would- terrifyingly, as you say- in Deuteronomy 28.

As for your comment about the Ten Commandments, (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=20&version=31)

I do not read, “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery“. (Verse 2 of Chapter 20 of Exodus) as a commandment but as the introduction to the Ten that follow. In other words God has redeemed them from bondage and idolatry - not just from the animal worship of the Egyptians but also from all of the other abominable religious practices, such as those of child sacrifice to Moloch, practised by the surrounding peoples. The Ten Commandments were designed to make them a holy nation, set apart from all others.

On a point of interest the people of the world are not divided up between those who do and do not believe in God, but those who believe in Yahweh and those who believe in false Gods and deceptions like Allah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png

Yes, the chart shows that 12% of world’s population are of no faith and only 2.35% profess to be atheists. They can say this from the comfort of an armchair but put them in testing circumstances, such being in a plane crash and their mouths become full of blasphemy. They acknowledge God all right but only to curse him. Now, that Stanley is truly terrifying.

DaveP

This is small excerpt from a writer on a Muslim blog, and gives indication what the Ummah has in plan for us. It appears in Tim Blair's blog.

Comment kitty replied to kk
Sun 15 Feb 09 (12:20pm)
Quote: In contrast, England is the one European country where young Muslims have a strong sense of identity and enormous political power. Along with two other Western countries, Canada and Australia, the laws and political milieu of England are inherently multicultural, and thus especially conducive to the ummah not only maintaining our identity, but gaining and exercising real political power.

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/hassan_chop/

Ayrdale

Get out into the streets !

I was born in England, but ashamed of what it's become.

Jenny

This is how the Fitna fall-out is being viewed across the other side of the pond:

http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2009/02/14/the-full-muslim/

Jan

How about a huge and similar outpouring over the next radical moslem cleric we bar from entry? After all, free speech. All I see here is a lot of people who agree with this Dutch cove and think it's ok. He doesn't live here, we all do. I don't want him or radical moslem clerics who preach hatred imported (there may be some who don't by the way, thought of that?). We've got our own home-grown versions of both forms of exploitative intolerance, and between them they're the ones degrading this country. Most of us want to get on and live our lives, and be respected for who and what we are. Plus fairness.

david skinner

Dave P , can we take it that one of the reasons the Islamic suicide bombers in Britain are not from the poor, disadvantaged and disconnected sections of Muslim communities, but instead are educated and middle class, is because Islam has taken over our universities, especially that of Oxford. I see that Tariq Ramadan is a professor at this establishment.

http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:9kg0JNTnBHQJ:www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1970+imam+tariq+belgium&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=uk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_Ramadan

stanley Jerusalem

David Skinner - The point I made concerning the order and number of the Commandments was that a Jew needs to consider what you describe as an introduction as a Commandment in fact. If not, then the remainder of Exodus XX is nonsense [to a Jew]. To a non-Jew,please start where you like, it wasn't said to you ORIGINALLY, and though you take its tenets to be true, nevertheless you are cherry-picking, albeit with the authority of the fathers of YOUR religion in which I am unqualified to comment.

OLiwagino Alefava Yihiri - You will see in the Bible that the Queen of Sheba [from Ethiopia] says to King Solomon "Do not fear me because I am Black, because the sun has darkened my skin." We may safely infer from this that King Solomon, descended from Jacob in the tribe of Judah, was white.Jews have both intermarried ,converted [in both directions] and been raped continuously since 1,000 B.C.E. and that will account for physionomical variations.

William Frysian

Update. In Holland Geert Wilders is now the second party in the opinion polls, just two seats behind the Christian League (CDA) which are losing ground fast. (The socialists have plummeted tot 23 seats) At the moment Geert Wilders has nine seats in the parlement. Mister Gordon Brown, thank you very much.

By the way, all the Dutch members of parlement from the radical left to the radical right and everything in between were appalled by the decision taken by your dhimmitude-government. Even our most left-wing spokeswoman Femke Halsema seems to have more backbone than every last member of your parlement.
It's getting quite scary over there.

Padpad

Thank goodness I got out of that country last summer.
Has anyone read Max Frisch's 'Biedermann und die Brandstifter'? A spot-on allegory of the spineless submission shown by the UK.

J Tee

If the English Goverment, stopped listening to themselves, and lining their own pockets, and got out onto the street of England they would see and feel how the British people feel about islam... We are fed up of being second rated citizens in our own country..

Dave M

"Everywhere I look there are calls for people to unite against the intelligentsia who are destroying the UK.
But how?!"

Simple. By means of education. Let me give you an example: Carol Thatcher has evidently just been hounded to the point she's taken refuge overseas. Her crime was to refer to someone as a "golliwog", either in jest or maybe just an unwise comment. The same with Prince Harry. Much of this boils down to brain-washing by the Labour Party and B.B.C. Even if we accept Carol Thatcher and Prince Harry are guilty as charged, I can think of far worse cases of racism the B.B.C. didn't want to know about. For example, some of the speeches in U.K. mosques and terms of language used to describe non believers and the insults aimed at Jews. Or, another case of ongoing racism - the nurse who was discriminated against for praying for a patient. Or the airways worker who was told to get rid of her crucifix. Myself, I became aware some years ago most of the racism we witness today isn't directed at ethnic minorities at all. Instead we're witnessing a kind of racism that feeds on a guilt and blame culture as well as inequality. People will quite happily sit and discuss quotas, targets and "equal rights" on Question Time but you never see the same criteria being applied elsewhere. That is, I have yet to see employers in Pakistan or elsewhere drawing up quotas for more Britons to be employed in order to make their own society more "diverse". This is a one way ticket. As for the Dutch politician, it's true he may well have gone overboard in some of his remarks but he hardly compares with some of the undesirables the U.K. has been absorbing into this country over the decades. What irks the Government about this particular individual is he takes a particularly hard, uncompromising line against the kind of religious intolerance New Labour has been promoting. Really the key is education. Once people realise where the actual racism is being directed and that the whole multicultural ideal is rooted in plain intolerance, then we will begin to see a change take place. As the saying goes, you can lead a donkey to the water-hole but you can't force the donkey to drink. More people need to be aware of the facts and then find the voice to object. Already this is starting to take place and now the Government is getting scared.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

J Tee, True True

let them go for a walk around the community so they can see how multicultural we are and how we get along, I heard once a while in some parts of East London their is riots between the muslims and the white working class British, the media don't mention this, they point to a finger other countries like France and they say here in England we get along but in France their is riots in the Parisian suburbs,

Mary S.

The post written by Joe Strummer 'hit the nail right on the head' when he closed his statement with: "This Wilders capitulation isn't just appeasement to Muslim extremism, it is open cowardice."
I think that says it in a nutshell! British politicians are a bunch of snivelling whimps!
But then I can't help asking myself, who placed these members of Parliament into office? They were elected by the people, were they not?
I'm American so I have to admit to not being too knowledgeable about the British system, but I feel it's a toss up as to which government (British vs. American)is the most incredibly stupid!

Carl

Margaret M-J. No matter how often you and your ilk repeat the lie, it does not become truth. You heard something that you wanted to hear, not the truth.

Martin

. . . never never never will be slaves.

The diagnoses were right :( The best England can hope for is civil war in the generations to come. Bloody and balkanised. No one is prepared to the their duty and fight now except individuals like Melanie.

-Martin (Australia)

JJS

Carl - No matter how often you and your ilk repeat the lie, it does not become truth. You say things that you want to be true, not the truth.

Lizzy

David Skinner please note: separation of church and state is essential to democracy.

Over and out.

gobbycoot

I can see why a violent Islamic extremist, Islamist, or Muslim terrorist or anyone who supports them would find Fitna offensive. I don't see why nice Muslims would find this film offensive...they are not the ones being exposed in the film.

The fact that the nice Muslims won't even watch the film and enter into the debate makes me wonder just how nice they really are.....

Aussie

The land that gave us Magna Carta, Habeas Corpus and the Bill of Rights is reduced to a nation of slaves. When freedom of speach goes all other freedoms soon follow. Fight or perish.

Simon V

Very well said indeed. It is encouraging that there are still some who are unafraid of stating the truth about these things. Well done Melanie.