Israel's banana republic

Peter Burman

You hit the nail on the head.

John Thomas

"It is simply astounding that at this fateful juncture in Israel’s history ... what is needed ... is a strong and stable government to take the excruciatingly difficult decisions ..." - what we are seeing is an inevitable product of our system of electing governments (it could happen anywhere) - who was it who said "two cheers [only] for democracy"?

Brad Brzezinski

I used to agree, but watching the antics of the two great democracies Britain and the USA, I say we just let Israel get on with it.

Jenny

Proportional representation is always madness.

Nothing ever gets done.

The just talk and talk while the country (or in the case of the EU Parliament, countries) falls apart.

Wake up, Israel. For crying out loud.

Hadas

Unfortunately, you're right. We haven't had a decent leader since the late Rabin.

phil

Absolutely on the money Melanie -how can this country make sense to the outside world ,especially the USA when crazies are forming the government -I do not know how the structure can be changed but one way or another it must .It is shameful that both major parties have to go cap in hand to a racist megalomaniac who is now enjoying his day in the limelight not because of his abilities but because of a failing political system .I have supported the state of Israel since my childhood for its anbitions to be a "light unto nations" , a home for the Jewish people and offering peace and tranquility to all religions.These lunatics do not represent me as a Jew nor very obviously the mass of Israelis ,they are a blight on the country and it is time the citizens of that nation said we have had enough .Shalom is Israels greeting and Shalom it must remain .

Frank P

For all the years that I have read your seminal essays and tomes, you have been perhaps the most stalwart supporter of the sovereignty, history, culture and traditions of both the United Kingdom and its allies Israel and the United States of America. You have been the implaccable enemy of their enemies (without and within). Now, when you take a look at the governments of each of those countries, you must ask yourself: "Was all that effort, research, analysis, synthesis and dedication worth it?" It would be interesting to hear an answer to that question.

Or perhaps the last word in your above post is the only possible answer that, paradoxically, makes sense?

An American

They are politicians....need I say more?

Maximilian

Kadima + Likud + Shas = 66 seats. In the 120-seat Knesset, that's enough already.

Labour politicians are saying that, after their hammering at the polls, they're going to spend some time in opposition to rebuild. But if they should change their minds, then the formula reads:
Kadima + Likud + Labour = 68 seats.

Danny Farrant

According to Ms Phillips Israel is "the most threatened nation in the world". It is no doubt under fire from Hamas and Hezbollah.

Israel is regulary bombing, blockading or threatening to bomb it's neighbours. So it it could also be seen as one of the most threatening nations in the world too. it can after all act with impunity no matter how many lives it takes or ruins it will never be blockaded, sanctioned and will always be subsidised with the latest military equipment.

Lets hope some kind of two state solution will be reached ASAP. This will take both sides to compromise, Hamas will have to agree to stop firing rockets at innocent civilians and Israel will have to give up much of the West Bank and compensate the refugees forced from their homes at it's creation. I personally cannot see Israel agreeing to this as it has too much to lose including water supplies on the West Bank and the last thing it wants is a fully functioning Palestinian state next door. Better to bomb and provoke therefore never reach a peace.

Carl

The words "Failed, degenerate State" come to mind.

Neil Turner

It's a good job that the God of Israel is behind them, otherwise they really would be in trouble !

Andre

I disagree with you, Melanie. Israel is the only democracy in the middle east. The machinations of a democracy at work may well puzzle an arab living in an oppressed society like Saudi or Syria, Egypt or Libya but I believe a strong govt will emerge. With Avigdor Lieberman at it's helm it will iron out some of the inconsistencies in Israeli politics such as having MKs who do not recognize the state of Israel for instance, voters who refuse army service. Reforms long overdue. Israel needs to be stronger to face down a nuclear Iran and the continuing threat of Islamic fascism. Lieberman is spot on when he insists on arab recognition of Israel

Keith Kahn-Harris

I rarely agree with you about Israel (or most other things) Melanie but you are right on the money here.

David Lindsay

Now, I carry no candle for the German-nationalist Third Lager in Austria, with its rabid capitalism and anticlericalism.

But if Israel Beitenu enters government, can we expect Israel to receive anything even remotely approaching the vilification and the pariah status heaped on Austria after the FPÖ entered government in 2000?

If not, why not?

Meh

"geopolitical crisis of unparalleled and extraordinary complexity"

Can we quote you on this? You know, the next time you forget that the world is complex.

David

I agree. I lament the lack of a less proportional or even FPTP system. Under that, we'd have managed to get a Kadima government, rather than have to face the horrors of a possible Netanyahu/Leiberman quasi fascist leadership.

Maximilian

Kadima + Likud + Shas = 66 seats. In the 120-seat Knesset, that’s enough already.

Labour politicians are saying that after their hammering in the polls, the best thing is to spend some time in opposition, for the party to rebuild. But they may change their minds. And if they do, the formula would read:
Kadima + Likud + Labour = 68 seats.

Carl

Oh well, I hope that they consider this mess was worth over 1300 dead Palestinians.

Manfredo Felice

It should be clear to anyone who follows such things that Israel has the worst electoral system of any Western-style democracy. I am no fan of PR, but at least in most cases it is used as a supplement to constituency-based elections, with the purpose of preventing overwhelming majorities and giving some token representation to the fringe.

Although theoretically parliamentary systems (at least the relatively pure ones) do not contain checks-and-balances, but in reality there is at least one. It is the fact that MPs have a split loyalty--to the party, and to a constituency. In Israel, loyalty is only to the party.

Why they stick with this system is beyond me. Of course, bad as it is the laughable thing is that the one attempt to reform it actually made it worse, by trying to graft a single element of the American-style system (the direct election of the head of government) onto an otherwise intact PR parliamentary system.

Malcolm Clark

There are some fair criticisms to be made of Israel's system. And it may be this election result finally spurs them into making some changes - though never to a winner-takes-all system, that would be even more ill-suited to the needs of the country.

Nobody would suggest having a single national constituency and a very low threshold for election in Britain. You wouldn't be comparing like-with-like if you compare Israeli PR to how electoral reform advocates in the UK are proposing for electing MPs.

However, it is worth bearing in mind a few points:

1. The election was very close between the two leading parties. When elections are close, the result takes a while regardless of system - the US Presidential election of 2000 took over a month (and was terminated by a dubious Supreme Court decision), and the 2008 Minnesota Senate election is still undecided!

2. Israel is a very divided society (religious, ethnic, attitude to peace) and there is a need for even small minorities to get representation. It has a pure form of PR for this reason.

3. The formation and success of new parties (e.g Kadima and Yisrael Beitenu) in recent years has drained support from Likud and Labour and makes the process of forming a coalition and maintaining a stable government more challenging.

Fabio P.Barbieri

And yet... somehow... life goes on. And, in fact, Israel survives and prospers in the middle of an ocean of forcefully guided enemies who certainly do not have to do deals with rival parties. Dear me, how incomprehensible. And Melanie dear, the words "Banana republic" pertain to a republic whose governance is carried out by the representatives of foreign banana companies - not by representatives of the voters. I can understand your itch for an Israeli man on a white horse to impose his far-sighted will on all problems, but, really, has it never occurred to you that the force of democracy actually lies in negotiation?

Ann

"have supported the state of Israel since my childhood for its anbitions to be a "light unto nations" , a home for the Jewish people and offering peace and tranquility to all religions"

Israel is not there to fall in line with your personal agenda, whether 'light unto the nations' or anything else. It is there to be a nation-state for the Jewish nation.

"These lunatics do not represent me as a Jew"

If you are not an Israeli, they certainly don't represent you - and it's not for you to decide whether they are 'lunatics'.

"nor very obviously the mass of Israelis"

The hubris - yours and Mel's - is breathtaking. They represent the Israeli voters who elected them.

Ann

" In Israel, loyalty is only to the party"

And you know this because ... ? Are you an Israeli voter? Do you live in Israel? Or do you know about Israel only by reading biased blogs?

"the horrors of a possible Netanyahu/Leiberman quasi fascist leadership"

Nonsense. You must be one of those people to whom politicians of other parties are 'fascists'.

"I hope that they consider this mess was worth over 1300 dead Palestinians"

Ah, the usual screeching from the predictable quarter. Gaza was about stopping the murder of Jews. Yes, it was worth it, even if you don't like Jews defending themselves.

Carl

Manfredo - western democracies do not practice apartheid or carry out collective punishments.

Imshin

As I grow older, I find myself becoming fonder of our peculiar election system.

When I was younger, I used to be so terribly disappointed when my party would win, and then be forced to make what I saw as a completely unacceptable deal with a smaller party I absolutely detested.

Now I don't detest anyone, so I am far less upset with the chaotic looking negotiation period that follows a national election here. Believe me, it is anything but chaotic. All sides know exactly what they are doing, even if they don't know exactly how things will end up. The government that will emerge will be the result of negotiation, compromise and accomodation, as has been the Jewish way for getting along for thousands of years. I believe this sort of system is what we need. It forces us to get along and tolerate the other, even if we disagree with that other vehemently. I believe this is important if we are to achieve peace. I believe this is important if we have to wage war.

I think a system like the American one, say, would not suit our temperament at all. It would not allow political representation for the rich kaleidoscope of views and ways of life that characterize our society, and would ultimately cause more division, as I believe it does in American society.

Most people in Israel do not agree with me. People like easy fixes and clear 'wins'. They want everything to be perfect and clear. Life is not like that.

By the way, one of Lieberman's three coalition demands, apparently, is for a reform of the electoral system.

If there is indeed such an attempt to reform the system again (the last one was disastrous and short-lived), I dearly hope it is not done hurriedly and is not an attempt to copy a system that works somewhere else, but may not suit us at all.

John

Where's Moshe Dayan when we need him!

phil

Carl
February 13th, 2009 3:26pm

The words "Failed, degenerate State" come to mind.

its the first true remark you have ever made carl that is exactly what we think when your name appears-sorry guys can.t help it ,this guy should be in a zoo,and not near the animals

HarleyDavidson

What can one say but but to quote Winston Churchill:

"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."

Indeed, democratically elected governments are downright messy if only for the facts most issues and disputes are aired out in public where every man, women, child, and nut case gets to have their say as they should.

In this case, Israel's new elections are no more messy than the current Obama cabinet that seems to go on and on and on with no end in sight. However, they do know who is President which is a whole lot more than one can possibly say about Israel's results.

Here is where I disagree with Melaine's description of madness. Israel has no upper chamber of sober second thought such as the US, Canada, or Britain therefore the voters in Israel have a tendency to more or less vote on a broad scale spectrum where no one party gains an absolute monopoly on power thereby resulting in "horse trading" so to speak amongst a wider representation that more likely results in middle of the road policies where all can agree.

In other words, this form of government usually results in centrists policies who ever is in power. What Israel probably needs in the future is an upper chamber somewhat along the lines of the American senate better ensuring the necessary checks and balances so necessary for a democracy to properly function.

Presently Israeli voters have a one time shot at voting resulting in having to cover too many basis of a diverse society with a single vote. The results speak for themselves.

Carl

phil, you aren't the brightest of fellows, but at least you can describe, using my words, what Israel really is. You are simply a foolishly blinded zealot, unable to comprehend why right minded people are disgusted by what Israel has become.

Marge P.

Ahmed Tibi called Lieberman 'a racist'. Pots and kettles come to mind...

Carl, you have a problem. Why don't you take it somewhere else. There's no point in trying to educate you. You come out with the same puerile garbage day in, day out. It's more than boring.

Herbert Thornton

Madness indeed - but is it any worse than the madness prevailing in Britain?

I fear that that Britain is developing considerably faster towards being what Carl calls a 'failed, degenerate state' than is Israel.

Fran Waddams

Danny Farrant writes

'Lets hope some kind of two state solution will be reached ASAP. This will take both sides to compromise, .... Israel will have to give up much of the West Bank and compensate the refugees forced from their homes at it's creation.'

Israeli Jews expelled or forced from neighbouring countries because of government-sponsored pogroms are entitled to full compensation as well.

All 800,000 of them.

phil

Thank you for that ann.Everybody can now see that ann has been let out.it obviously didn't do any good having her in .If you don't agree with her views which are right of atilla the Hun you are in for a good drubbing.well she is good for a laugh anyway ,and Mel and I will say whatever we want regardless oh her approval -it looks like Lieberman has at least one more disciple ,so long as she doesn't see him as too far left .carl had better watch out ,this lady does not take prisoners :)

Leslie

Phil
February 13th,6:03pm
"This guy should be in a zoo..."

It's just an annoyance like a dripping tap,really.

gary ashton

lets see what happens before attempting to predict the future and peoples responses. often once the dust settles the players are dealt new cards and the game restarts with new hands from a different approach. and lets face it, the old ones were not really working.

Maximilian

When I hear a country described as a "banana republic", the image that springs to mind is a place where a change of government entails the losing candidate ending up in exile, in jail, or dead. I get your point, Melanie, but I think you've chosen the wrong metaphor.

Dave

Just for the novelty. Mel I totally agree

davod

"However, they do know who is President which is a whole lot more than one can possibly say about Israel's results."

Isn't it Peres. Isn't this position independent of Kneset elections.

Linda Smith

Danny Farrant (13 Feb 3:19pm) Your "analysis" overlooked the fact that Islamic fundamentalist Hamas and Hezbollah are Iran's proxies. Iran is predicted to build a nuclear bomb by the end of 2009. Any suggestions on how Israel should deal with Iran whose virulently antisemitic Islamic fundamentalist President is on public record as saying he wants to see Israel wiped off the map - not because of what it does, but because of what it is, ie Jewish.

Personally I should have thought that faced with fighting off fanatical Islamic fundamentalism Israel needs to be very threatening and to have the latest military equipment. I expect to see it going on a mission to Iran any time soon.

Carl

Marge - why on earth would I think that somebody like you could educate me? You are simply blind to the nightmare Israel has become - economically failed and racist in the extreme.

Linda Smith

Carl you posted: "Oh well I hope that they consider this mess was worth over 1300 dead Palestinians." How many of the 1300 were Hamas fighters? Are you a supporter of militant Islamic fundamentalism Carl? Don't forget, you're an infidel.

David

"Nonsense. You must be one of those people to whom politicians of other parties are 'fascists'"

No. Politicians of other parties can be all sort of things. These ones strike me as almost fascistic. After all, what do you call wanting to ban political parties you don't agree with, or wanting to forcibly uproot whole populations and dump them outside the country?

Scotch

Melanie, I normally agree with everything you write. Not this time. Proportional representation is a classic demonstration of democracy at work and gives everyone a voice. To Israel's morally bankrupt detractors in this forum and elsewhere I ask this question: tell me how it is that a so-called "apartheid State" has elected Arab members of parliament who are openly committed to its destruction?
Like Melanie I would prefer to see a tougher less compromising government in Israel led by someone like Netanyahu. However, in Israel that can only happen when it reflects the overwhelming will of the people - that's called democracy!

George Steiner

The problem with Ms. Phillips, and for that matter with the others at the Spectator is that all they know how to do is to scrible. This is not enough. I would not worry so much about Israel. A nuclear and technical superpower will take care of itself. And only 6 million people. To add insult to injury they will ignore your advice.

Hypocrite alert

Ann, since you decide all the time on matters that "it is not for you to decide" - why can't phil? At least he has manners and maturity, unlike you, you silly woman.

HarleyDavidson

Fran Waddams
Don't let a little thing like the truth get in the way of your fictional post. Fact; Israel did not expel any Arabs. Arabs were TOLD to leave by their Muslim brothers while they attacked Israel thinking they would wipe Israel off the map.

Now that you brought up expelled peoples who do you suggest pay back the 650,000 Jews expelled from Arabic lands?

Israel doesn't own a dime to a single Arab. The UN gave the Arabs two thirds of the land which THEY themselves refused. Frankly the Arabs never miss and chance to miss a chance despite what ill informed people like you fail to grasp.
For God's sake do a little research before you write silly posts in the future.

Roy

Although parliament sounds like a madhouse with almost everybody pouring scorn on others: this is good and as it should be. As long as there is a vote at the end of it all. Having said that and experienced 'proportional representation' I would forever go for 'first past the post'.

YA

..that's all internal issues Melanie. Israel's enemies won't see anything but the same iron mugs and claws. As it is supposed to be.

Anne-Kit

So Carl is a "right minded person"! Geez, it must be great to be so convinced of your own superiority ...

Mladen Andrijasevic

Shmuel Rosner gives some sound advice:
http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/rosner/entry/avoid_the_political_news_from
Avoid the news from Israel for a couple of days. If history teaches us anything, it’s that the first days of coalition building are a waste of time. Everything is spin, manipulation and positioning. The news-junky gets a lot of information with zero relevance. My advice: read a good book, go out to dinner, spend time with your family, and come back to the news cycle in a week or so. You’ll be saving a lot of valuable time.

lao solomon

What Beitenue wants is in complete accord with the policies of both Kadima and Likud .What Beiteinu is asking for is electoral reform ,civil marriage,the easing of conditions for conversion and a loyalty requirement for all citizens.A national unity government including Kadima,Likud and Beiteinu would have a stable majority of 70 seats.This would be a centrist government with nothing extreme about it.These necessary reforms could only be implimented by this coalition.

Jacob

Sorry Melanie but civil unions and making the conversion process more rational and less subject to the whims of the ultra Orthodox cranks are not marginal issues.

Don't care for Lieberman's policies but these issues are important.

Of course, so is the issue of proportional representation and the country needs to change that asap.

Ann

The knee-jerk screeching from phil - if you don't agree with him, you are mad. This only proves yet again your intellectual bankruptcy.
Mel and you can say whatever you like: so can I, and I say that you are talking out of the back of your neck.
Only utter fools jump to conclusions the way you do. I am not a Lieberman 'disciple' - I am certainly not to the right of Lieberman at all, quite the reverse - but I will continue to say that the mouth-foaming about him and Netanyahu is hysterical nonsense, whether or not you approve of my posts.

phil

Leslie some people need a coffee and a fag ,some go to page three ,carl comes here !!-he is oblivious to the fact that he is perceived as an idiot ,but lets face it he is amusing ,and at times like these we do need some amusement .

phil

Linda (Smith) please,stop asking carl difficult questions -he may disappear,and then where would we get our amusement,and Marge he is right ,you can,t educate him ,nobody could ,but he is our one ray of sunshine and a wonderful opportunity to express our otherwise serious side.he brings to mind the Priestly Blessing which is set forth at Numbers 6:24-26:but he may not like that as it is in the old testament .He will certainly need it when Ann gets stuck into him ,hell hath no fury like a woman who has been missing for such a long time .Carl my son your time is near ,prepare yourself .

Carl

phil, you are like a stuck record. Why on earth would I give a fig about what a pro Israeli bigot might think of me?

Augustus

I sincerely hope that Mrs Livni does become Israel's second female Prime Minister. "Israel does not belong to the Right, in the same way that peace does not belong to the left."
-Tzipi Livni (10-02-2009)

"...We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we will save our country."
-Abraham Lincoln (01-12-1862)

phil

carl "Why on earth would I give a fig about what a pro Israeli bigot might think of me?"------you dont have to ,we just enjoy amusing ourselves with you ,have you not noticed ?

Raymond Joseph Douglas

Yes, Neil turner, it IS just as well that the God Of Israel is still with the Jewish people in Israel ! To all right thinking people, "PRAY FOR THE PEACE OF JERUSALEM< THEY SHALL PROSPER THOSE THST LOVE THEE!" Psalm 1`22v6-7

phil

Ann we have missed you and your style has not changed ,but you haven't got stuck into carl yet have you? -blow him a few kisses ,he writes a little like you ,all lovey dovey and without substance ,nevertheless always accusatory .He hates Israelis and Jews ,you hate anti -Semites which includes everyone except yourself and of course you only agree with yourself ,on the basis of only talking to a better class of person -namely yourself ,so I think you and carl would make a lovely couple. We look forward to your betrothal .Dont forget to send an invitation to "hypocrite alert " who seems to know you well .xx

Augustus

I tend to agree with Maximillian as 'Banana Republic' is rather a loose term anyway. South Africa, for example has many parties but there isn't much bargaining power as a counter weight to the ANC. Israel's PR system does seem to deliver a democracy of sorts by negotiation. In this election you have an experienced, albeit left-wing President, who sees that Kadima has just made it to the biggest in the Knesset although the Likud appear the clear winners in terms of forming a sustainable coalition. The ball is very much in the court of left-wing compromise.

Gautam, New Delhi

I find the startling variety of responses to the post rather amusing. And alarming. For the central question, whether Israel has simply become ungovernable, has to be a satisfactorily answered. And a satisfactory answer, I am afraid -- and the wisdom emerges from reading the stunning variety of responses to the post -- can only come from a distant observer.

There's appears no doubt that in its present political state Israel looks incapable of settling its historical disputes and conflicts with the Arabs. It must solve its own problems first. Having said that, Israel is certainly no banana republic, although in moments of individual exasperations it may appear to be so. For god's sake, it's the only democracy in West Asia. It has a right to function as it wants to, so long its leaders know where to draw a line.

Why can't Israel have a national government that works on a "common minimum programme", as is the case -- albeit by a long chalk -- in India? Fractious coalitions won't last and only prolong the search for a workable solution to the problems of West Asia. Of course, this rejoinder may appear a tad ill-informed about Israel's visceral internal politics, but I suppose the buck still does stop somewhere in Tel Aviv?

Wm. Hazlitt

"Most threatened nation in the world"? "Systemic existential threat"? Is this intended as a calm assessment of Israel's security? Israel has one of the biggest military forces in the world. It has nuclear weapons. It works in ever closer cooperation with the world's superpower. What do its enemies have that compares?
If the US ever decides that it no longer needs military facilities and an unwavering ally and proxy in the region, and withdraws its funding, its military aid, and diplomatic protection, then Israel might have some security concerns. But it would still have one of the biggest military forces in the world and it would still have nuclear weapons.

Fran Waddams

Harley Davidson

I feel you missed my point - or possibly did not read my post fully.

Danny Farrant (whom I quoted) claims that Israel should compensate Palestinians for losses incurred in 1948.

I'd like his response to the proposition that countries which together expelled 800,000 Jewish citizens and confiscated their property after 1948 should be equally liable to pay compensation for their losses - or is it only Israel who should pay up?

What do you think, Danny?

EC

Phil: "Ann... so I think you and carl would make a lovely couple."

Ye Gods! Think of the children ....

American Guy

Phil and Carl you both come across as puerile. Carl, you're an obvious bigot, and I suspect, a nasty one with lots of psychological issues. I wouldn't waste my time with either one of you. Ann is worth twice you guys and then some.

Bob

you all forget, that in a country that lives under constant stress, like Israel, politics provides comic relief. Doesn't Israeli politics remind one of the Marx Brothers comedy "Duck Soup"? It's a trade off, bad but really funny government.

Herbert Thornton

George Steiner's comment about not worrying so much about Israel because as a nuclear and technical superpower it will take care of itself - even if it is only 6 million people - seems more realistic than most.

It reminds me that Mr Steiner asked me some time ago when the parlous situation brought about by Muslim immigration into France was being discussed, whether I was advocating the nuking of the Paris banlieues.

It seems to me that whether we are talking about nuking the Paris banlieues or the whole of, say, Iran, it is not a matter of whether we think it ought to be done, but whether it will come to that.

I don't know about France, but as respects Iran, I should think that - depending on Iran's own actions, it is a distinct possibility. I can't judge how much provocation of Israel it would take, but one obvious trigger for it - no matter what sort of coalition is in place in Israel - would be the detonation, anywhere in Israel, of an Iranian made nuclear bomb.

Ann

"he writes a little like you ,all lovey dovey and without substance"

I see that you have not yet taken that crash course in reading comprehension that you need so very badly.

Carl

Hey American Guy, in which way am I an obvious bigot? I detest the State of Israel as it is, but you clearly love it and hate Palestinians. The bigot is?

HarleyDavidson

Fran Waddams
If I have not understood your post meant for someone else then the fault is entirely mine. At times the grey matter on the LEFT side of my brain seems to suffer from delusions of grandeur brought on by overexposure to Carl (Marx?)mindlessly attacking those whose brains are entirely intact.

phil

American Guy you have the sense of humour of a mule and now you see neither carl nor I like you :)
so far on this thread I am the only one who has addressed the subject -you carl and ann have only sent in bile

Ann

"I detest the State of Israel"

Yup, that makes you a bigot all right.

Ann

"Ye Gods! Think of the children ...."

Another prat descending into infantile abuse.
But don't worry - I have no intention of hitching up with antisemites.

Shezza from Oz

Just to explain the Political system in Israel. There is no proportional representationin Israel as we know it. The Israeli public votes for a party. Not a specific person who represents their particular area. So how are the various members of parlaiment elected? That is a decision made by the party members.The party memebers will vote to create a list. Depending on the number of votes that the party gets determines the number of memeber of the list who will sit in the Knesset (Israel's parlaiment). So here we already have the disconnect between the party leaders and the people. Unless the people join the political party and vote within the party elections they have no say in who will be in the
Knesset. The party members will vote for whoever will provide what they want, personal or political, while the leaders are responsible to the party members who elected them. What that means for Israeli politics is that the people don't really have a say in what goes on. They cannot vote a person out of their seat. When election time comes along there is a lot of hot air expressed but once the elections are over the agenda continues.This is because the top of the lists always make the Knesset. That is why I am now laughing at all thoe who are calling Liberman a right wing extremeist. He is no more a right wing exremist than Bibi or Sharon. He should be called an extreme pragmatist, that is the only true extemism expressed by Israeli politician's. The agenda will continue.
As far as Israel being failed state. I am not sure what that is based on. The education system works,there is no private school system in Israel likein England and Australia, the great minds coming out of Israeli academia are educatd by the state and is free, underage preganancy is probably lower than any Western Country. The Social welfare system works as well as if ot bettar than ?England's.Over 75% of the population own there own homes,there is National healthcare for all Israel's citizens ,in fact Israel is weathering the International monetary crisis better than most. Journalists can roam freely to write whatever they want about Israel. (before anyone says anything about not being allowed to the front lines I will remind you that during the Falklands war no journalists were allowed in)I am not going to go in to the level of scientific and Medical and other acedemic acheivements even though that is also a measure of a failed state. Nor will I mention Israel's assistance to any county willing to accept help during a natural disaster.
I may not agree with some of the Israeli government policies but a failed state Israel is not.

Adam B.

Let's take lessons on democracy from Carl, who supports the Nazis of Hamas (remember Hamas' brand of democracy, throwing Fatah supporters to their deaths from rooftops, or shooting Fatah members in their beds at Shifa hospital?) Carl, who never makes a comment more than two sentences of hate long, and never answers any points put to him. Yes Carl, you have such credibility!

Adam B.

Carl, you are a bigot, as you repeatedly refuse to condemn the obvious anti-Semitism of Hamas, and its charter. You're not even honest with youself. Meanwhile you hurl baseless accusations at Israel for eveything under the sun, but are strangely blind to the disgusting behaviours and abuses committed by every single one of its neighbours. That is hypocrisy Carl, and something extremely unpleasant motivates it.

Adam B.

Fran Waddams, agree entirely. And if we applied the same definition to Jewish refugees that we do to Arab ones, the term "refugee" would include all the descendants of those 800,000 Jews, who never get mentioned by the leftists or the media.

gary ashton

thank you shezza, that was very educational and a correct assessment.
israel is far from utopian but it's doing very well under the circumstances, another reason why it has so many disgruntled critics.

stanley Jerusalem

Phil - Why does Carl bring to mind the Priestly Blessing albeit that he is sore need of some of its benefits?
I write this as a puzzled but still functioning intermediary for this Threefold Blessing.

Ann

"I am the only one who has addressed the subject -you carl and ann have only sent in bile"

Your arrogance is as huge as your pomposity, self-importance and self-delusion.

Ann

What nonsense, Hazlitt. Israel can't use nuclear weapons except as the very last resort.

Derek Blades

Fran Waddams,February 13th, 2009 7:45pm. You apparently agree with the very sensible remark by Danny Farrant that the Arabs forced from their homes to make way for Israeli settlers should receive compensation. I entirely agree with you.

But you would also like Jews "expelled or forced from neighbouring countries" to be similarly compensated. "Neighbouring countries" must mean Egypt, Jordan and Syria. In truth many, perhaps most, of the Jews who left these countries to settle in Israel did so of their own free will and were in no sense compelled to leave. Indeed many of them have not fled anywhere and continue to live peacefully in these and other Moslem countries. Perhaps you did not know that?

Miranda Rose Smith

I remember the efforts of the Israelis to put a government together in the Spring of 1990. I said at the time that it was like living in the middle of a Gilbert&Sullivan operetta-and that I preferred living in the middle of a Gilbert&Sullivan operetta to living in the middle of a Gerald Seymour novel. NOW, I feel like I am attending a performance of H.M.S. Pinafore at the Iroquois Theatre in Chicago. (The Iroquois Theatre was a horrendous firetrap.)

stanley Jerusalem

Derek Blades - The Jews who left Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Aden,Iraq, Libya and Sudan certainly were allowed to leave by the authorities. Of course their homes, contents, businesses and bank accounts were all forfeit to their governments. Still, they were allowed to leave freely. I suppose that's something to be grateful for.

stanley Jerusalem

P.S. Both Jews were still living in Afghanistan till one of them died a month or so ago.
The rest are, guess where?
Yup, in Israel. That's cos we've got so much room. Remember, after all, we are the size of Wales [that's without an h].

Jenny

American Thinker has a piece entitled 'Can Israel make it alone?' - well, with you know who in the White House, it has better be ready for anything.

Here's two extracts:
'Iran's nuclear weapons will be used to create impregnable havens for terror groups. If Obama allows Iran to dominate the Gulf to "satisfy its ambitions to become a regional power," as the Left likes to say, you can fully expect the Mullahs to take the logical next step.'

These next lines intrigues me because I'm always putting this into my own calculations about where resistance to the Caliphate is most likely. I've never seen a British commentator go near this, but I'm sure they all know the picture, they're just too cowardly to say anything about it. The scenario is hardly ideal but I'd rather die under these flags than in the Western Caliphate:
'Western Europe may be crumble to domestic Muslims, as the Geert Wilders case suggests. But Russia has a thousand years of fighting Islamic aggression, and has just carried out a vicious war against jihadi rebels in Chechnya. China also fears Muslim invaders and rebels.'

Exactly. It's a desperate line of retreat for those of us stuck in Europe, but if Vlad the Anti-Jihad wants a contribution, I'll be happy to hold a jumble sale for him.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/02/can_israel_make_it_alone.html

Carl

Ann, you missed of "as it is", but we are used to apologists manipulating statements.

phil

stanley Jerusalem -it was a joke Stanley.its the blessing read out on friday nights .we dont want to lose him do we ?he is a great source of amusement and now that he is engaged to ann he is even more precious .

Shezza from Oz

Derek I am not quite sure what you mean by living peacfully in the arab countries. My father is an Iraqui jew. Living peacefully in their country involves accepting a third class status if you are not a moslem. This means having no recourse if you are attacked by a moslem, if a moslem has not paid you for a service you are at the whim of the reigning sheik if the defaulter will pay you. I could go on. My father still has his one way passport out of Iraq. When his family left Iraq they left behind all their wealth and properties. They arrived in Israel with the clothes on their back. They left because of the constant threat of moslem pogroms.

phil

ann in the last two days you have sent 8 posts all of which consisted of insults and bile -I am very thick skinned as regards you and your fiancee carl but I do think the other posters must be getting a little bored with it. Could you try addressing the subject matter here for a little while at least .We have of course noticed your absence, but you have now made your inimitable presence felt again so lets get on with substance for a change -you know ,that means cutting out the adjectives ---,pomposity, self-importance and self-delusion,prat ,screeching ,ranting,mouth-foaming. ,hysterical ,lunatic et al .

your post on feb 13 at 5.59" in response to---
"I hope that they consider this mess was worth over 1300 dead Palestinians"

your replyI-----Ah, the usual screeching from the predictable quarter. Gaza was about stopping the murder of Jews. Yes, it was worth it, even if you don't like Jews defending themselves.---------

That ann was the single most disgusting remark I have ever seen on these threads ,and I suspect you would be on your own -You have said before that you are an atheist and not a Jewess,so I am at least grateful that we cannot be blamed for this despicable glorification of death. I deplore your support for both Jews and Israelis ,with remarks like that you are a friend we do not need .

For the record, for myself and I am sure virtually all Jewish people regret the loss of innocent lives caused by this necessary incursion .I hope that the loss of life will not have been in vain and that we will soon see peace for both the Israelis and Palestinians .

Adam B.

Derek Blades, where on earth did you get your misinformation? Almost all Jews have left Arab countries - a few decades ago, a quarter of Baghdad was Jewish - a quarter! Now there is not one living Jew in the whole of Iraq. If things were so wonderful for the Jews, why did they all leave?

There is a tiny minority left in Yemen (who have recently faced more violence), and as for Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, all of which once had sizeable Jewish communities - these communites have simply ceased to exist. Jews were not and still are not allowed to live in Saudi Arabia (no howls about Saudi apartheid from you). In Jordan today, it is illegal to be a Jewish citizen - and Jordan is a more moderate example! You obviously know nothing about the history of pogroms against Jews in the Arab world, or the dhimmi status which was forced upon them, which meant they were discriminated against. The Jews faced restrictions on where they could live, what work they could do, where they could go - today this is called apartheid. And if they left "of their own free will" as you laughingly describe it, why did they leave with nothing? Their property and possessions were confiscated. You really are a revisionist propagandist.

By the way derek, are you the Derek Blades who carried out work for the Chinese government, the samer Chinese government which has oppressed and persecuted the Tibetans for more than 50 years?

Rodney

Carl: What a foolish fellow you are. You really do combine the unfortunate traits of ignorance and outspokenness into a most egregious whole.

davod

"George Steiner's comment about not worrying so much about Israel because as a nuclear and technical superpower it will take care of itself - even if it is only 6 million people - seems more realistic than most."

If by take care of itself you mean without the backing of the US then this is simplisic argument.

Support is not just a matter of money and weapons, but moral and diplomatice as well.

Without US and Brit backing at the Security Council how long do you it would be before their were world wide sanctions levied against Israel.

At the latest Security Council vote on Gaza the US absained but if it hadn't been for Bush's last minute intevention Rice would have voted yes.

The US is getting ready to appoint a new ambassador to Syria, and has just lifted sanctions to allow the repair of commercial aircraft.

The US is considering removing sanctions on Iran related to materials required for manufacturing nuclear weapons.

Change we can believe in.

Carl

Shezza, oh yes, the infamous Iraqi pogroms. What will you make up next?

Wm. Hazlitt

Ann,
Assuming nuclear weapons are not for use, Israel still has one of the largest military forces in the world and is still an integral part of the superpower's military force. So I would still question whether Melanie Phillips comments reflect a calm assessment of Israel's security.

By the way, the US, and so Israel as well, are increasingly including in their war plans the use of tactical nuclear weapons (whether as a bluff or not, who knows).

Adam B.

Wm.Hazlitt, Syria alone has a larger armed forces than Israel. Combined with Iran (which alone also has a larger armed forces than Israel) and the rest of the Arab world, (including the Saudis with the latest US and European equipment) one has to conclude that Israel is outnumbered, any way you look at it. I appreciate that other factors need to be taken into consideration, such as equipment and training, but the fact remains that Israel has faced an existential threat since its birth, and has to conscript to maintain a deterrence - a deterrence to the genocidal impulse of its neighbours.

Malcolm Deas

Fabio Barberi is right: you should not use the words "banana republic", and should resist using them the next time they " irresistibly come to mind". A number of republics export bananas, their politics all differ, and I cannot think of one whose current politics resemble those of Israel.

stanley Jerusalem

Wm. Hazlitt
February 15th, 2009 3:26pm
By the way, the US, and so Israel as well, are increasingly including in their war plans the use of tactical nuclear weapons (whether as a bluff or not, who knows).
And this you know for certain because............

Carl

Adam B - might this have something to do with the way Israel has treated the indigenous Arab population? I know that it is difficult for apologists to make the link, but you are not a stupid man so you can at least try.

stanley Jerusalem

STOP IT! All of you. Israel does grow bananas! So there!

stanley Jerusalem

Malcolm Deas
February 15th, 2009 5:48pm
"I cannot think of one whose current politics resemble those of Israel."

Can you think of any Republic that doesn't export bananas that resembles Israel then?

Louise

Carl, I believe you have done the inestimable Phil a deep injustice by writing, in your pre-programmed prejudiced fashion, "You are simply a foolishly blinded zealot, unable to comprehend why right minded people are disgusted by what Israel has become." From what I have seen of Phil's posts, his views, while robustly supportive of Israel, are clearly tinged with the sense of compassion that is inherent in Judaism; he is certainly no triumphalist regarding the terrible necessity of Israel's actions. Now perhaps you will oblige us by answering Adam B's oft-posed but never-answered question to you regarding Hamas.

Wm. Hazlitt

Adam B.
The Israeli general staff and the Zionist military forces before them appear to have been confident before every conflict except 1973 that Israel would prevail. Whatever they said for external consumption, they did not think they faced an existential threat.
I believe Jordan was already colluding with the Zionists before partition. And the other Arab states were half-hearted at best in their genocidal impulses. As with any other state, their primary concern is self-interest.
Are you serious in comparing the Israeli armed forces with the Syrian, or the Iranian, or the Saudi Arabian, or even all of them put together? They would give a wry smile, and the Israelis a derisive snort. They all know with certainty that the Arab armed forces are no match for the Israelis.
If that were not enough, then they are all aware that the US can destroy anything in its path.
Melanie Phillips' assessment still seems very farfetched.

Ann

More mouth-foaming shrieking from Phil:

"(Ah, the usual screeching from the predictable quarter. Gaza was about stopping the murder of Jews. Yes, it was worth it, even if you don't like Jews defending themselves.)
That ann was the single most disgusting remark I have ever seen on these threads ,and I suspect you would be on your own"

Suspect away, little man. I said that military action against Gaza was worth it if it stopped (even if not completely) the murder of Jews. If that is "the single most disgusting remark I have ever seen on these threads", you need (a) to get out more, (b) to pay attention to the many antisemitic statements on this blog, (c) learn to read (see below).

"You have said before that you are an atheist and not a Jewess"

The term 'Jewess' is antisemitic.
I am an ethnic Jew and an atheist.

"so I am at least grateful that we cannot be blamed for this despicable glorification of death"

You really are one disgusting, pompous, self-righteous, illiterate little man, aren't you? I wasn't 'glorifying death'; I was supporting Israel's right to take military action against those murdering her citizens.

"I deplore your support for both Jews and Israelis ,with remarks like that you are a friend we do not need"

You don't get to decide which friends Israel and Jews need, little man - quite apart from the fact that I am a Jew.

Ann

"Ann, you missed of "as it is", but we are used to apologists manipulating statements."

And we are used to antisemites demanding that the Jews conform to how they think Jews should behave.
Newsflash: this is not Poland 1942, and you don't get to tell Jews how to behave. Israel is the way it is, as it is, the way its citizens want it to be, and it defends itself against genocidal scum the way it decides is best for its security - not to please antisemites.

Ann

Phil, who posts abusive remarks such as 'this guy should be in a zoo', whines about my posts.
What a loser.

Ann

"The Jews who left Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Aden,Iraq, Libya and Sudan certainly were allowed to leave by the authorities"

Except those who were murdered, Stanley.

JoJo

Carl - what about the way the Arabs treat Israel? ("You're not a stupid man" .... wait, maybe you are.)

Adam B.

I'm sorry Wm Hazlitt, my reading of the history of the region, and its current reality, does not concur with yours. You provide several assertions without any evidence - for example, your contention that Jordan was "colludng" with Israel. Really?

I strongly disagree that the genocidal impulse was, or is, "half-hearted." And it is simply wrong to say that Israel's greatest existential threat was in 1973 - it was in 1948, and again in 1967. 1973 was probably the least of the three, although still a huge threat. In any case, this is all academic as the current threat comes primarily from Iran, whose missiles can already reach Israel, (thus the strength of conventional forces is a red herring).
Meanwhile, Iran also continues its nuclear work unhindered whilst declaring that Israel should be destroyed and the Holocaust didn't happen.

It's scary, and you should recognize that. Isn't this an existential threat?

Adam B.

Carl, who not only doesn't condemn the anti-Semitic Hamas charter, but now claims that the Iraqi pogroms didn't happen - I sometimes wonder if you're not a plant to make the anti-Israel brigade look stupid. It is illuminating to learn that the anti-Israel brigade really IS that stupid.

Fabio P.Barbieri

Adam B.:they are, they are. Unfortunately they are spreading, and in this case stupidity is a contagious disease.

shezza from oz

Carl, It would appear that you must have lived in Iraq to be certain that my Father's memories, my grandparents memories and my 11 uncles and their families memories are false. I have been reading your posts for a while. I suppose my mother's side of the family who lost memebers in the Holocaust and my stepdaughter whose grandmother has a tatoo from one of the camps is also made up. Please do not bother replying to my posts as they are not aimed at you. They are aimed at people who are genuinely intersted in truth and are able to use their google to find things out. The people who my posts are aimed at are willing to look up the facts and decide for themselves. PS one of my great uncles was muredered in the Pogrom of 1941 oops must have made that up.

GC

"The Weimar Republic was in existence for thirteen years. In that time, some 40 parties were represented in the Reichstag. This fragmentation of political power was in part due to the peculiar parliamentary system of the Weimar Republic, and in part due to the many challenges facing German democracy in this period."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_political_parties

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Carl: Just exactly what do you mean by "how Israel has treated its indigenous Arab population?" There's been a Jewish presence in Israel at least as long as the Arab presence, so the Jews are at least as indigenous as the Arabs. Arabs in Israel vote, go to universities, sit in the Knesset.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Carl: So Israel is economically failed and racist in the extreme. A) Is Israel any more economically failed than say-Sweden and B) How many Ethiopeans immigrants live in your home town?

Archie

Indeed so, Miss Phillips, and I regret that I must point to Israel when the usual suspects crawl out of the woodwork periodically braying for proportional representation!

Wm. Hazlitt

Adam B.
For 1948, I know there are some historians produce hissy fits here, so I won't mention Avi Shlaim (oops), but try Benny Morris. For every other war, invasion, incursion, read the diplomatic and military documents of the time and the intelligence assessments.

As for the other Arab states, again the record is clear.

As for Iran, the President is not the one with the influence, so his more outrageous statements are to be disregarded. Iran, like any other state, looks after its interests, which are not served by going to war with Israel. It is surrounded by nuclear powers - what would you do in its position? And to make its current regime even more jumpy, the US and Israel threaten it with annihilation.

phil

ann your ridiculous outbursts speak volumes for what you are . a hate filled person who is as bad as carl ,and certainly not one who can ever speak for Jewish people -if you had any feelings other than hate you would be ashamed of yourself .You demean us all by association ,but I suspect even those that do not agree with us realise that you are a maverick and that your outbursts of venom do not represent Jewish thought or behaviour.

phil

LOUISE thank you for those kind words ,which will be wasted on carl ,but maybe he will become kinder now that he is betrothed to our local Jewish /atheist heroine :)

Carl

Miranda RS - the integration of Ethiopians into Israeli society is not what you would call a success is it?

Ronnie

BUT!, stanley jerusalem, do the bananas run the republic?

Ann

"might this have something to do with the way Israel has treated the indigenous Arab population?"

Just great. Yet another ignorant antisemite who thinks the Jews are not indigenous to Israel.

Adam B.

Wm Hazlitt, I'm not confining the promises of genocide to Ahmadinejad, who denies the Holocaust whilst preparing for the next. In Iran, there are frequent military parades with missiles. On the side of these missiles appear the following words - "Death to Israel." At Friday night prayers, thousands of people chant, "Death to Israel." Iran is putting huge efforts into developing missile technology, and working on a nuclear programme. You do the maths.

What would you do if you were in Israel's position? When people say they want to kill Jews, the Jews have, through bitter experience, learnt to believe them. You seem to have a very flippant attitide with the future of the Jewish people.

Adam B.

Well said Shezza! I always like plain speaking Australians!

Ann

"The Israeli general staff and the Zionist military forces before them appear to have been confident before every conflict except 1973 that Israel would prevail. Whatever they said for external consumption, they did not think they faced an existential threat."

And you know this because ...?
Do you have a direct line to IDF HQ? Or perhaps you get all this detailed internal knowledge through an aluminium dish on your head?

I was in Jerusalem in 1967 (and 1973). There was no such confidence as you claim in 1967. Quite the reverse: there was huge anxiety. It is well-known that Rabin was on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

But what the hell: someone who wasn't there obviously must know all about it, better than the locals ...

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Mr. Hazlitt: I don't think threatening to bomb somebody's nuclear reactor constitutes "annihilation."

Ann

"And it is simply wrong to say that Israel's greatest existential threat was in 1973 - it was in 1948, and again in 1967. 1973 was probably the least of the three, although still a huge threat."

Sorry, Afam, that is not right. The attack across the Suez Canal was not an existential threat, obviously, however shocking it was and however costly in Israeli lives. But the attack in the Golan was hugely dangerous. The Syrian tanks were only just stopped. You might argue that the IAF could have stopped them once they'd crossed the Jordan - but the IAF was engaged at Suez, and was suffering huge losses.

Ann

" Iran, like any other state, looks after its interests, which are not served by going to war with Israel. "

Iran is ruled by eschatological madmen. Such madmen can decide that 20 million Iranian dead are worth it if Israel is destroyed.
But I know that it's impossible to penetrate your know-it-all smugness.
Do you have ANY military background? Have you ever been to the ME?

phil

Wm. Hazlitt you have written many words here but I still do not understand the point you are attempting to make -is it just that you believe Israel can defend itself or is there a wider message in your words ?Please spell it out for us -confused tunbridge wells

Carl

Shezza- I confined my remarks to Iraq and did not mention the holocaust. The exodus of Iraqi Jews from that country was the subject of controversy. Israel actively encouraged it and there is evidence that Israel carried out a bombing campaign to encourage them to leave.

stanley Jerusalem

Ronnie
February 16th, 2009 11:15am

BUT!, stanley jerusalem, do the bananas run the republic?

As we speak the bananas are deciding among themselves.

Ronnie

Yes stanley. I suppose the next question is are they wearing pyjamas?

The thing is, as someone mentioned a long way above, Israel has the party system it has because there are an unusually diverse range of views within the population itself and the system, as established, allows these views to be as fully represented as possible.

I think another feature is that the larger parties can no longer really be described as 'broad churches' as we understand the term and so they are, consequently, not so large or dominant as they might be. Each party represents a rather narrow range of opinion as their leaders seem to find it increasingly difficult to co-operate and coalesce on major issues.

For whatever reason, the Israeli political system is more fractured than many and this creates obvious problems of stability for government during an almost permanent state of war.

I don't think it is correct to decsribe Israel as a banana republic. It is hardly that. In fact it is quite the opposite as there is a complete lack of a strong, charismatic leadership figure who could bring order to the chaos, overcome the haggling and wire-walking and take the country in a clear forward direction.

EC

stanley Jerusalem: "As we speak the bananas are deciding among themselves."

So Stanley, Ronnie, who is going to emerge from the bunch to be top banana?

After the tomato-gate affair should we discount them too if Netanyahu gets in?

Original Tony

I am elated by the possibility of Israel having an extreme right-wing government. What has Oslo done for Israel? What has chatting to the enemy accomplished? What has compromise and patience done? Read my lips..."absoluely NOTHING!"
It is time that Israel says to the rest of the world, 'go hang yourself' and gets on with the business of totally smashing anyone who dares harm its citizens.

Ann

"ann your ridiculous outbursts speak volumes for what you are"

You don't own a mirror, do you, Phil? I have replied to your screeching, venomous, lying accusations with facts. So what do you do? Ignore the facts, and continue to spew your hate-filled, abusive attacks on me.

"and certainly not one who can ever speak for Jewish people"

Sorry, Phil - I will continue to speak for Jewish people, despite your infantile, hate-filled, lying tantrums. You don't get to decide who does and who doesn't, little man, despite your delusional conviction that you do.

"if you had any feelings other than hate you would be ashamed of yourself"

The hate comes from you. Every time I post, you screech and foam at the mouth.

"You demean us all by association"

You do that all by yourself, every time you post your unhinged abuse (simply because I applauded Israel's determination to defend herself). You simply can't see how hate-filled you are.

"but I suspect even those that do not agree with us realise that you are a maverick and that your outbursts of venom do not represent Jewish thought or behaviour"

More delusional nonsense. I am as Jewish as you are, and you don't get to tell me - or anyone else - who represents Jewish behaviour. Nobody appointed you to decide. And do see a professional about your delusions.

Carl

Well phil, you were looking forward to Ann getting back. Careful what you wish for, old fellow!

phil

ANN you dig yourself into a deeper hole every time you open your "mouth"-everyone is an anti semite ,deluded ,insane, foaming at the mouth,infantile, hate-filled,full of lying tantrums,unhinged,delusional et al apart from you -I only remind you for amusement and also because I dont want anybody to take you seriously ,for an elderly lady you have a very bad mouth which does our cause great harm ,carl no doubt will love you as you do his job for him better than he ever could -just try to be nice ,its not that hard .

stanley Jerusalem

Ronnie - The trouble is our Govt. is not sufficiently right wing. In fact many members of both Kadimah and Likud come from such similar stances that it has been suggested that they might abandon their present party in order to ensure the success of the other without having to rely on a coalition. That taken together with Israel Beteinu's leader's claim that he holds the keys to the formation of the next govt. and that with 15 out of 120 seats all indicates the extent of the failure of the present electoral system. Come back 'one man one vote!'

Dave M

One positive development is the emergence of greater Right-Wing influence in Israel. A stronger Left alliance would be a good thing if you could actually obtain peace via a two state solution but I think that is now a pipe dream. Thus far, whenever Israel has tried to make concessions, it just leads Hamas and co to assume they're weakening. So, unfortunately a Right Wing approach may be the best option for Israel. Above all, somebody has to do something about Iran, sooner rather than later. The Israelis must be aware, more so than in the U.S., that a band of nuclear armed apcalyptic mullahs simply isn't an option we can contemplate. Personally I feel pretty sure there will be a military stike against Iran unless the E.U. and America don't deal with the issue now. Time is running out.

Adam B.

Carl, now trying to extricate yourself from the hole you have dug, your wilful ignorance about the pogroms in Iraq and the wider dhimmitude against the Jews in Arab nations is astounding.

stanley Jerusalem

Dave M - We can't rely on others to do our dirty work for us. Oh,they'll sit back in their armchairs and criticise this or that 'disproportionate' act but secretly they'll be delighted that once again we've pulled their chestnuts as well as our own out of the fire. First Iraq then Syria now.....

phil

Ann you will have to forgive me for this but I woke up in the middle of the night laughing at your last post excoriating me and could not get back to sleep so I turned on the computer and entered you in the Tourettes world championships .you were awarded first place and received 3 michelin stars ,2 rosettes and a triple AAA rating .An additional prize was a contest with the world welter weight champion from the UFC cage fighters , but he turned it down as he was scared stiff ,they tried 2 pit bulls and a rottweiller but the RSPCA said they were in too much danger ,finally through DNA technology we uncovered a direct descendent of Goliath and he agreed to 12 rounds but at his natural weight of 22 stone -You will be afforded full honours and will be escorted into the ring by your manager carl and trainer galloway in his full dress uniform of red leotard and a bottle of milk -you will be announced as the willesden wildcat but now from Barking with a record of 58 contests and 42 ko,s 10 strangulations and 6 no contests due to groin kicks to the referee when he attempted to tell you the rules .As a special condition you will be allowed 5 minutes ranting and raving prior to the contest in the middle of the ring in order that you can warm up .Stanley has bravely agreed to referee on condition of anonymity .
Now I know you have a great sense of humour so you will enjoy my little dream ,which it probably was as the computer was switched off when I woke up,Strangely I found two teeth on the sheet and my leg was badly bruised ,but no hard feeling and I wish you best of luck ..btw I didnt mind all the unpleasant descriptions but I must tell you I am not little

Carl

Adam B - if stating facts is "trying to extricate myself" then guilty as charged. You need to understand that not everything Israel does or has done is good. Once you can accept that, you can commence your education.

stanley Jerusalem

Phil - I suppose you think that laughing in the middle of the night is acceptable - well it ain't when you wake me up as well.
I had been dreaming of upper and lower case ladies called ann and wondering whether e e cummings had ever met either of them. Just as I decided he couldn't have met Upper case Ann, your laughter woke me and I spent the rest of the night looking for my all-black football kit, my shin pads and my cricket box.
I will need the Nom d'Etage of Dalston Stan to preserve my anonymity and I promise a fair fight [if I get involved].
Our PC counterparts out there could never understand the ravings of such as we. They are all po-faced bigots who could do with a good seeing-to as was the expression we employed in Ridley Road Market to describe them. I recall the late and very lamented Bernard Levin once described an animal rights action group as not loving animals but hating people towards whom they had never in their lifetime been capable of relating. Some of our present troubles in the UK stem from the tacit support of such noisy minorities. You know the trendy chattering classes eager to locate a new target for their uninformed woolly-minded liberal attitudes. Like those who insist on buying Fair Deal products from overseas claiming it does away with wicked exploitative capitalists and ignoring the fact that without these wicked capitalists the locals would have no employment at all and consequently starve. Or those who blandly inform you that they have sponsored a goat in Zimbabwe or something.Am I drifting from the subject? Oh yeah, the elections. Well with one or two hiccups called Olmert and Barak, we seem to be doing the right thing here in the Holy Land for ourselves. What do others think? Are you confusing us with someone who does give a damn?
Our PR is cr*p is it? Oh you want us to lie like the others. Didn't anyone ever tell you that the Levantine's idea of telling the truth is to tell you what you want to hear.

phil

stanley Jerusalem great post :) btw do you think Pr is good for Israel ?I speak from afar so I have never tried it regards phil.hope you will be the referee,but you will need the cricket box .

phil

carls 25 per cent management fee wil be donated to the JNF -ok carl ?

stanley Jerusalem

Phil - On the basis that one is damned if one does and damned if one doesn't, it don't make no never minds.
My ex was a very successful fashion PR so on balance, no.

Adam B.

Carl, they're not facts, they're lies, that's the problem. And weren't we discussing the apartheid suffered by Jews in Iraq and elsewhere in the Arab world - why are you bringing Israel into this? Guess you can't help yourself.

Mr R

Carl is now well past his sell-by date. Perhaps we should stop responding to his infantile posts?

phil

Mr R-you are of course right ,but it is such fun:)