The fifth columnist in the White House

porkbelly

And now Iran possesses enough nuclear material for at least one weapon and a missile capable of delivering it to Israel. They need only to figure out how to miniaturize the device so that it fits aboard the missile which doubtless Dr. Khan has been hard at work on. And here is the thing: as soon as Iran publically announces that it has such a weapon it must be prepared to lose it to an Israeli air strike, so in reality it will have to use it as soon as it is ready. All it will need is a pretext, and for that Hezbollah and Hamas stand ready to provide. Obama - he'll urge both sides to "show restraint".

Glenn Hysen

At long last we have a President of America who isnt in the grasp of the Israel lobby, who doesnt offer himself and his post up as a subsidary of Israels Government, and look how the Israel lobby is trembling!

8 more years!

fulcanelli

Is anyone really surprised by these actions?

The shady and unsavoury characters highlighted during the campaign months, and largely overlooked or ignored by the US public and press, should have set alarm bells ringing for all. Instead, we are now on the receiving end of an expected backlash against the West itself, and freedom as we know it. It will likely only get worse from here on in.

Celtic Leopard

Don't worry, Melanie! I feel sure Joe Biden and Rahm Emanuel will keep the errant POTUS in check.

Steve

Melanie, Israel doesn't stand alone, as you've pointed out elsewhere: we in Canada will stand by our government's honourable decision not to have anything to do with the Durban II travesty.

David

Yes, we remember fondly the days under the Neo conservatives, when Iran was too scared to embark on a nuclear weapons programme, and Russia was safely con...er, hang on, that's not quite right.....

ERB

Thank you, Ms. Phillips, for your wise and illluminating thoughts on the state of the world. I am an American and find myself filled with apprehension about the future.

robin lloyd

i think calling obama a fifth columnist is idiotic, melanie - and the note of hysteria weakens your otherwise sound argument. israel's complete dependence on the us for its survival is our single greatest weakness; this weakness has been, as you demonstrate, very tangibly exposed by a us leader with little real sympathy for our jewish state - but what can we do!? obama is weak, indecisive, inexperienced, morally confused; our enemies are decisive, ruthless, with every day gaining in strength and, i'm afraid to say, sensing victory. obama isn't an enemy but he is not sufficiently a friend..but what is to be done?

Wilhelm

Melanie .

More worrying is the 5th column in Britain. Just read the Independent comments, its a Hamas chat room.

Sharon Klaff

Glenn Hysen - you might perceive Israel to be trembling, but rest assured Israel never trembled before any murderous enemy. You probably dislike the fact that we Jews have been around longer than any people on earth. It won't be long now before Israel unilaterally takes out the Iranian nuclear threat. However, if she fails you won't have time to tremble when Iran turns her attention your way. You're too busy hating Jews to see what lies ahead of you!

phil

Mel I am so sad to see that you are still on the Presidents back and that you so distrust him so badly .This column is in a minority view which I am sure will not change and will get many posters agreeing with it .For me -I know one can only make peace with one,s enemies and talking to them in order to try to achieve it does not mean either you like them or agree with them ,but ignoring one another will achieve nothing .You believe Obama will abandon us ,I do not -he will have to be the biggest liar this world has ever seen to do that .As for the defence of Israel ,the wall ,the IDF will stay in place ,when did Israel ever rely on outside help anyway ?
I believe Obama will try his best to bring peace by dialogue ,bribery if you will ,but peace whatever cannot be onesided .I really think the Arabs are getting fed up with the status quo too, as has been shown by the reluctance to support Hamas and the threat to them of Islamic republics springing up around them .As Obama says it is time for change and he is making that effort ,we will lose nothing by talking we can always say go to hell and leave ,surely we would be no worse off than we are now . I have spoken with Jewish Americans and they seem to think he is wonderful,why should their conclusions be dismissed ?Why should a large majority of the voting population be seen as stupid ?

I no doubt will be put down by the majority of the posters here ,many of whom I have great respect for ,but so far none of them have been able to tell me why their minority opinion should prevail.I want peace and security both for Israel and ourselves as British citizens just as much as them and you ,but if I was Obama and heard incessant bad mouthing of myself and my efforts on behalf of those shouters ,I think eventually I would say ENOUGH .The man needs support until proven wrong , and if in fact you are right Mel there is nothing we can do about it any way -We can,t unseat him ,we can,t invade him :) what do you suggest we do ?

An American I can almost hear you you rattling the cups in your kitchen and I do understand you loath him ,that is your privilege ,but at this stage I need answers to the questions that haunt me too and hating him will not be much help to either of us .

Benjamin Hegeman

I agree with Robin: "Obama is weak, indecisive, etc....." I also observe that Obama is profoundly inspired by himself, as are his team members. That's scary. If 'ideas can change the world', well, the Middle East should profoundly change. It won't. Who was it that said, 'if the gods wish to punish a modern ruler, they make him obsessed with solving the Palestinian problem'?

Jane Galt

I applaud Canada for taking a stand against the Durban 2 hate fest. I fear for my own country, America, which has elected someone we know so little about and who has so little experience. One thing we do know is that for 20 years he attended a church that was rabidly anti-Israel. I guess he was either convinced or was among those doing the convincing.

Winston Smith

What really does America expect when it votes in a man named Barak Hussein Obama? Look at his history, that had the McCain the same America haters and Racists he wouldn't have got off the starting blocks.
I fear for the USA as allowing Obama as president is going to destroy the West as we know it. Welcome to Islamisation and if not WWIII.

phil

btw -whatever difference of opinion I have on this matter with Mel is just exactly that -I despise the thoughts of hysen and the leopard and any other Israel haters -my differences are with my friends ,our paths may be different but our goals are the same .

pm317

Melanie, hope you will do a post on the developments in Pakistan of appeasing Taliban and giving them Swat valley.

I just wrote something up on it for noquarterusa.net (which will go up in a few hours).

Obama administration's non/mild response to this bullying from Pakistan is going to hurt. Taliban now has a safe haven where they can play with impunity?

CelticLeopard

porkbelly said,

"And now Iran possesses enough nuclear material for at least one weapon and a missile capable of delivering it to Israel ... All it will need is a pretext, and for that Hezbollah and Hamas stand ready to provide."

Of course, in reality, the pretext will be another stupid stunt like the vicious one Israel pulled in Gaza ...

Peter

"In the past four weeks, every single one of Obama’s foreign policy initiatives has appeased and strengthened the enemies of both Israel and the west,"

That is what Obama is there for.Look into the contacts of his youth,Frank Mitchell Davis and William Ayers.There are more,but these unsavoury examples will suffice.

ndm

Glenn Greenwald has an interesting and apposite a href="http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/02/20/goldberg/index.html">post on Salon about the use of the word "anti-Semitism" to smear people who want a safe and secure Israel.

nef601

Is it possible for Melanie Phillips to write a blog entry without the word 'appeasement' in it?

No, I thought not.

Anyway, why shouldn't Iran have the bomb? Israel does, and it's hardly a stable nation.

Nick

Sharon Kleff; we all are Africans, not Israelis.

You may not like this fact, but mitochondrial DNA is incapable of lying.

joe

melanie, fear not.

millions of american christians and conservatives are strong israeli supporters.

usa conservatives will not allow the dear leader to turn his back on israel.

obviously, dear leader is in way over his head, and the smirk on his face will be gone shortly.

he's going to need conservatives in the worst way before too long as the wrecks of his policies pile up around him.

already he is being mocked by high-schoolers, and his prdictable leftist crazy ideas are being hammered every minute of every day on talk radio and fox.

keep up the fight.

i can assure you that conservatives in the usa are beginning to unite as we did in 1980 and during the 1993 to 1994 period.

Carl

Israel is the most likely country to use Nuclear weapons in a first strike. It cannot be trusted to have them.

Neil Turner

Nobody has mentioned Bibi yet.

In my opinion, the man for the hour, who will not bow the knee to Hamas or Fatah

He has been elected with a mandate present a strong Israel, which will not accede to a two state solution.

Liberals of the world tremble as we await some direct action!

Reis Kash

Ms Phillips is always worth a serious read. She should move to the USA before England becomes a total Islamic state.

John Butcher

As an American who voted against Obama in November, I think it bears repeating that "the rest of the world" (whatever that means exactly) wanted Obama elected. Well, here he is.

I still can't believe that Obama is now the leader of the Free World. In these dark days, I truly appreciate Ms. Phillips's ongoing efforts to expose this man as a traitor to freedom.

HarleyDavidson

Melaine,
It is my humble opinion Durban 2 will speak for the Americans. Perhaps that's not such a bad outcome after all especially at such an early stage of Obama's administration. The American citizens will then know exactly where Obama stands on the Israel file. No more guessing. No more wondering what Obama's policies look like anymore. We will have fact for a change.

Of even more importance the new Israeli government under Bibi, a right of center based government, the least one can say at worst Bibi will know where Israel stands with the Obama Administration. The illusions have evaporated and in short order Bibi's government will be judged, very quickly, how they meet the challenges going forward. And if Bibi's team is smart enough to understand they have friends in congress Israel will not stand alone. Nor does Israel stand alone with millions of Americans and indeed millions of peoples worldwide.

But let's explore the most likely scenario with the American shift in policy in mind that Israel will find itself alone. Then I recommend the India policy when the Obama team tried to force itself into the Kashmir situation. India, rightfully so, told the Americans to but out and mind their own business! There in one incredibly blunt message India told America in no uncertain terms you do not in any way dictate policy to us or for us.

Should Israel stand alone then this would NOT be Israel's first experience in this situation. Israel stood alone at the rebirth of Israel as a modern entity. The odds were far more severe than today. I have no doubt that the modern version of Israelis are every bit as formidable as their founding peoples. Today's Israel have modern military armed forces unlike their founding days. Knowledgeable sources suggest Israel has 400 plus nukes and the means of delivery.

Nevertheless, the Obama administration present at Durban 2 is a massive victory for the Iran led block of nations. No question. But I warn the Iranian block of nation they could learn a thing or two from Tzipi Livni's premature "victory" celebration after the Israeli election. With premature being the operative word here. But the Muslims are not a people who will gracefully take a victory laying down. BY attending Durban 2 Obama will soon find out he just loosened the dogs of war and now it is only a matter of time before the Middle East goes up in flames.

An American

All you Hamas-terrorist lovers
are right in lock step with 'The Messiah' Obama.

It makes me think that maybe there might be something to the talk of an emerging Anti-Christ bringing about Armageddon...wonder who that could be?

London Calling

Hamas and the Palestinians are inseparable. The 15,000 Hamas soldiers are Palestinian and as reported each family in Gaza has a male member attached to Hamas, be it a Brother, Father, Cousin, uncle. You cannot simply destroy Hamas as expressed by Israel without destroying a population, it is not therefore a solution.

Having listened to Hamas in a televised interview during the Gaza conflict I posed the question whether they were approachable for peace talks and concluded that they were, but only in conjunction with support from Arab leaders and a fresh approach from the West.

Isolating Hamas by removing their support from Syria and others can only be achieved through better ties between the West and the Middle East, if the two branches merge on equal footing through reconciliation and progress I believe anything is possible.

It is time for the real debate, and to learn from past failures and I for one would embrace a fresh diplomacy in whatever form it takes to bring about peace. The uncomfortable truth is the only pathway.

Joe Strummer

Like turkeys running towards the slaughterer's knife at Christmas or Thanksgiving, the deranged Left just can't help themselves. Their bizarre hatred of Israel even supercedes the future peace of the world, just as long as " The Jews" get what's coming to them. The planet will soon see how weak and impotent the USA is under Obama, just like when Clinton and Carter were in the White House.

George Steiner

I have learned a lesson when I was about 13 years old. Two boys in my class, a big kid and a smaller kid were pushing each other as the usual preliminary to a punch-up. Suddenly the smaller kid smashes the bigger kid in the nose. It is broken and bleeding. The big kid starts to cry, no more fighting, all over in a couple of seconds. I have never forgotten this.

Elena, Sderot

Phil, you say - “One can only make peace with one,s enemies and talking to them in order to try to achieve it does not mean either you like them or agree with them”. Yes. But when they don’t recognise your right to be at the table, what’s to talk about? So, Phil, let’s say you head the Israeli delegation, you walk in to establish the common ground. Hamas says, as it always has: “you have no right to exist” - what do you do then? How much talking has there been about this down the years. Everyone knows what the sticking point is. So what would be achieved?

“Ignoring one another will achieve nothing” But Melanie Phillips is not ‘ignoring’ anything. Some of us happen to take it seriously when these people say they want Israel wiped off the map. There has already been one Holocaust in the last 100 years. Shall we be deaf as another gathers pace? In the words of Barack Obama: ‘Don’t tell me words don’t matter’. Until that agenda has categorically gone, there is nothing to talk about. Nobody’s being ignored. Their poisonous, hateful words are heard and taken seriously. Why do you ignore that?

‘You believe Obama will abandon us ,I do not -he will have to be the biggest liar this world has ever seen to do that’ Phil, Obama has just abandoned Israel, by agreeing to take part in Durban II, an event overseen by the ‘UN Human Rights [sic]‘ Council, chaired by Libya and with the vice-chairs occupied by Iran and Cuba. Ms Phillips presents an extract from the State Department’s March 2008 Report on Contemporary Global Antisemitism on the behaviour of this enterprise: ‘This allowed multiple resolutions against Israel, while no other country could have more than one resolution run against it each year.’

By giving his assent to a process that singles out Israel over every other country, how does that not amount to Obama abandoning Israel?

This is the difference between an Obama presidency and a McCain presidency. McCain recognises the useless UN for what it is and wanted another organisation set up. Can you imagine John McCain letting Libya, Iran and Cuba take the head of the table and come to participate while Israel got a kicking ‘while no other country could have more than one resolution run against it each year‘?

It stinks.

‘When did Israel ever rely on outside help anyway?’ Who supplied huge parts of Israel’s armoury to defend us in our hour of need? Who has control of the airspace Israel would have to fly through to reach an Iranian nuclear reactor? What a thing to say, too, to all those who have aided us when we have needed it. It is only now as these friends are put on the sidelines that Israel is being forced to think how it can survive on its own. Yet you want to kick sand in our friends’ faces and instead have us sit down with people who want the place wiped off the map? No, thank you.

‘I believe Obama will try his best to bring peace by dialogue ,bribery if you will , but peace whatever cannot be onesided’ Yes, peace cannot be onesided. It cannot be right that when Israel does not want to destroy other people, other people want to destroy it. How is that a recipe for peace? Israel has no agenda for war, only to defend itself.

‘As Obama says it is time for change’ Yes, that’s a childish advertising slogan. The only change we have seen so far is for him to open up an avenue for Hamas and other jihadists to flourish. ‘and he is making that effort’ Do me a favour, Phil. You think none of us wants peace? We want real peace, not put-the-taqiyya-faced-jihadists-in-the-driving-seat ‘peace‘. That’s no ‘peace’ at all.

‘We will lose nothing by talking’ On the contrary, there is everything to lose by talking to people who are terrorists because it legitimises their terror tactics. If you talk to people like Iran and its terrorist proxies Hamas and Hezbollah, you are in effect saying to them: ‘Terror works.’ They can then go back to their electorate and say: ‘Look. What did we tell you? Terror works, doesn’t it? Look how they grovel before our agenda to wipe them off the map. Isn’t it time we had more terror?’

You go on ‘We can always say go to hell and leave.’ Phil, if that’s would it would take to strip you of your delusions and you could sit in the room and see what would unfold, then perhaps it would be a good idea. Unfortunately, as I’ve outlined above, the PR victory these people would be given in front of their electorate would be enormous and ensure their terror tactics were reprised, that’s how Israel would be ‘worse off than we are now’.

‘I have spoken with Jewish Americans and they seem to think he is wonderful, why should their conclusions be dismissed ?’ Because their views are deluded nonsense. That’s why. So many people do want to believe in Barack Obama because they want it all to be over. They genuinely do want this man to solve the world’s ills simply by refusing to acknowledge those ills. Have you forgotten Neville Chamberlain?

Who wants to be tied up in conflict the whole time? No-one. So when the snake oil salesman came calling, out came all these good folk willing and wanting it all to be over. I admire the sentiment. Truly, I do. But I’m afraid to say these people either misunderstand or don’t want to understand what they are dealing with. Israel doesn’t have a government document wanting to wipe the rest of the Arab world off the map, so why should people who hold that view of Israel be given respectability?

‘Why should a large majority of the voting population be seen as stupid ?’ Because so many large majorities have been shown to be stupid in the past, that’s why, Phil. Because the Melanie Phillipses of this world (would that we had more of them) are shown time and again to be right to confront evil ideas before they become unstoppable.

Thank G-d the Israeli electorate has woken up to the fact that it is to be thrown to the wolves. It is not a moment too soon.

Gautam, New Delhi

It's a great and provocative piece from Melanie, as usual. Not surprisingly, her column is invariably the most heavily commented one in The Speccie.

Having said that, I couldn't agree with her more. It does appear that the White House is fast slipping into a morass of indecision and a pathological moral confusion about what constitutes correct choices in today's world. It's becoming increasingly difficult to escape the feeling that Obama might just prove for America what Gorbachev proved for the USSR. While there's no doubt that what happened with the break up of the USSR was for the better, it's difficult to entertain any such notion in regard to America. For one, Gorbachev wasn't ever morally confused or indecisive: he was stabbed in the back by Yeltsin...

But to return to Obama, the new occupant of the White House scarcely gives any impression of being strong in the true executive sense of the word. Looks a bit like an Ivy league version of George W. And that can mean only one thing: The more things change in the US, the more they remain the same...

But seriously, there might still be conservatives who would come to terms with the reality that perhaps the days of their conservatism (as they have always known it) are over. Great and cataclysmic events in the lives of nations can't be always value-judged.

Krishnan Nayar

I used to be verysuspicious of Obama until the Wall Street crash showed me that capitalism was in dire trouble and the old ways of thinking about economics needed to be discarded. Capitalism won't work. We need to move on top a democratic form of socialism. Obama's virtue in this situation is that he is far less bound down by free market superstitions than most other US politicians. He can take us forward. There is no one else now who has any credibility.

As for Israel, I sympathise with it but it must learn to stand on its own two feet. That is best for it.

Wake up, Melanie. Shake off the dust. Your rants are tiresome.

I sincerely hope Obama IS a Fifth Columnist. We need a radical subversive in the White House. The old ways have left us penniless.

Michael B

Descent. Succombing. Tergiversations at absolutely basic levels. A hollowing out of foundational principles and requisite resolve in the name of a purported "realism" that in fact is a chimera, a delusion. De-moralization - much of it demagogically based, vainglorious and resolutely in denial. All of it advanced by a very junior senator from Illinois and Chicago-land politiking, recently ascendent to an executive position he is not obviously qualified to inhabit, excepting by virtue of those carefully honed, Chicago-styled political skills - and the ardor of a forever breathless MSM.

"Salvation," in political garb, redux.

Adam B.

London Calling, read article 13 of the Hamas charter. (I'll save you the trouble - it warns against any peace talks whatsoever, and insists that violent jihad is the only path to follow - in fact it mocks the very notion of any peace talks - ever). Then tell me you think peace talks with Hamas are viable. The very raison d'etre of Hamas is as a rejectionist movement.

An American

Krishnan Nayan,
"The old ways have left us penniless"...

You and along with many of the above posters' comments leave me dumbfounded...

If you think you are penniless now...give Obama another month or so...in just weeks Obama has already done more damage to American's stocks, retirement, home values, etc. than we can even fathom...

Are you really as stupid as you sound?

Eventually your financial security will be one of the last things you'll be worried about with the 'Messiah' in power.

An American

Phil,
Why is it you agree with Melanie on all Jewish, Israeli issues...but somehow don't trust her good judgement and insight of Obama and his administration?

With everything that Obama and his socialist cronies have brought on the US in the last few weeks...you still continue to worship at the feet of this fraud.

Wake up!

HarleyDavidson

Krishnan Nayar
Capitalism has failed, huh? And you suggest a democratic form of socialism, you say? Good luck, Nayar. You do realize of course America is running approximately a 53 trillion and counting debt and ringing up more billions of debt even as I write.

Now as anyone who owns a credit card or several or bought an home in America millions couldn't afford mandated by democrats, your democratic form of socialism at work, were the actual cause behind the massive collapse of the housing sector headlined by Fannie May and Freddie Mack. Once against your democratic form of socialism at work for the masses. Who is paying the credit card bill now?

Who exactly is financing the American spending spree? The government will borrow the trillions (soon to be zillions) it needs from Japan, which is already owed more than $580 billion by the US; China, to whom the US currently owes more than $386 billion; and/or ... (drum roll please) ... Saudi Arabia, which is now owed nearly $100 billion by the US. Plus further billions owed and being borrowed from other Arab nations.

Furthermore the British and European paradises of a democratic form of socialism are all up to their eyeballs in debt to the Arab nations not to mention needing their oil as much as they like breathing.

Neither America nor Britain or Europe can afford to piss off their Arabic masters. In Europe's case add in the Russians who used their gas which the Russians shutdown this winter to prove to anyone with a functioning brain just who is the master in Europe.

Canada has its own oil, gas, hydro, and boundless natural resources plus the most stable banks in the world to tell the Arabs in no uncertain terms screw Durban 1 and 2. Not so the Americans, the Brits, and the Europeans. They do exactly what their Arabic masters tell them what to do.

Need I remind you of that magnificent Soviet socialist experiment and how well that turned out? Why should I pay my mortgage when I can find some chump who'll pay it for me? Why bother to work when someone else will do the heavy lifting and pay for me? Why pay taxes when the government will send me a checque for taxes I didn't pay? Essentially that is Obama's plan.

Make no wonder Obama got down on his knees and did as his masters ordered. Attend Durban 2 as he was told. You gotta suck up to the lender when you need a loan.

Don Phoenix

Obama would have to accidently push the button on America and nuke us for the liberals to question him - and even then they´ll blame it on Bush. Obama looks to me like like the kid in the Monty Python movie who for punishment has to play rugby with the big boys. He´s out of his league, scared, confused, and never believed he´d actually be where he is. Deer in the headlights. He´s a mess. Says a lot about the American voter. We should have a test before we are allowed to vote; something that proves the voter knows the issues and where the candidates stand on them. If you´re an ignorant fool and clueless, you can´t vote.

beloved

To Melanie,
Those who would oppose Obama in the US for Israel's sake have no political power at the moment. However, for whatever it is worth, I've written all my elected officials. A few even receive your articles on a regular basis, and I've told my state officials that I support unlimited Jewish immigration into our state. Thank you for documenting the issues.

John Edwards

Melanie Phillips has quoted a statement from someone called Caroline Glick that "the ICJ's advisory opinion on Israel's security fence claimed that Israel has no right to self defence against Palestinian terrorism ......... Jews can be murdered with impunity"

What the ICJ advisory opinion on the Wall actually said (and it is well worth reading!) was that Article 51 of the UN Charter (on self defence against attacks on UN member states by other states) was not relevant because attacks against Israel were not imputable to a foreign state.

Paragraphs 138 - 140 of the ICJ judgement explain how the court came to this conclusion and also show that the Glick\Phillips interpretation is a ludricious fabrication.

It is also worth noting that the ICJ far from indicating that "Jews can be murdered with impunity" made the very reasonable statement that "Affirming the necessity of ending the conflict on the basis of the two state solution of Israel and Palestine living side by side in peace and security based on the Armistice lines of 1949 in accordance with relevant Security Council and General Assembly resolutions"

A two state settlement of the conflict is long overdue.

gary ashton

who is your enemy and how to tell them apart?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/4736032/British-Muslims-providing-Taliban-with-electronic-devices-for-roadside-bombs

Vision Aforethought

@Krishnan Nayar: Not a single person who has been left penniless was forced into the situation that left them penniless. The poor African American and working class white families who signed mortgages they could not hope to repay chose to sign their agreements and said agreements were conceived by well meaning but naive '5th columnists'. And those who have lost money with the corrupt investors who have made the news recently chose to part with their money without performing due diligence. With the exception of the retired whose pensions may be threatened (although I am sure will be protected by the governments), not a single person suffering in this mess was forced at gun point. You can be assured that under a socialist regime, force will be used to keep us all in order creating a dull, grey, unprogressive society that will look in 20 years much as it looks today. Don't believe me? Visit Eastern Europe or your choice of colourful dictatorship anywhere in the world. And then go visit Soho New York, San Diego California, middle class British towns or cities (such as Thame) - each of which contain real examples of an almost ideal lifestyle based on common sense and creative ethical entrepreneurship, not a fascist government or ambitious religion. (All of this loveliness is threatened at present by the surveillance state - my pet issue - or the issues M raises throughout this blog.)

anti-5th columinst

Nayar said:

The old ways have left us penniless.

You got that right, in a way.
It's the democrats socialists ways/programs that have left us penniless.

You're the one who needs to wake up and fast.

Roy

The United States of America's left wing leadership has started out like we all expected . . . a girl’s tea party. Their pre-election condemnation of Bush did not presuppose that some of the former president’s actions may have been correct. Indeed, they have blanketed all previous administrations as beyond the pale. All the deviousness and attacks on American souls, property, and principals, by the powers of the evil empires forgotten. Charles Krauthammer is one of the few in each western bulwark who is outspoken on his countries mishandling of crucial matters and is a pleasure to read and see in action.

Vision Aforethought

@Krishnan Nayar: I do want to clarify that the way the bankers (and their paymasters) have behaved is appalling, but that sort of corruption goes on in socialist entities - and because their is no free press or democracy, there is no one to challenge them. The humiliation they are facing here in the UK is proof that the system self punishes, if that's the correct word.

Furthermore, I do actually feel, like Prince Charles, that for an ideal world, a nice blend of socialism with ethical capitalism would be a way forward. Balance is good.

Derek BLADES

Melanie writes "For the umpteenth time: there is no analogy [of Palestine]with Northern Ireland ...." but later in the very same paragraph she asserts that "the only reason the IRA abandoned terror and asked to become part of the democratic process was because the British Army had beaten it into at the very least a permanent stalemate. Peace became possible solely because terror had been defeated." Sounds to me as if she is drawing a very close parallel between the IRA and Hamas. It seems that Melanie loves to shoot herself in the foot. Should she be put out to pasture?

Gary Vineberg

Every time Melanie Phillips and her chorus of mindless supporters attack Obama and the country that elected him president, they alienate the only people actually willing to go to bat for Israel and the Jewish people.

Israel knows full well that its alliance with the United States makes it the target of anti-Americanism as well as anti-Semitism. Yet what kind of support could they expect to get from Europe, Canada, China?

So far, I have seen scant evidence of Obama's pending betrayal of Israel. For those of you who think only Republicans are reliable supporters, just remember the shabby treatment of Israel by the elder George Bush and James Baker.

It is an unfortunate reality that America has no obligation to the Jewish people beyond protecting its own Jewish citizens. In this respect, it has performed far more admirably than most.

Jews all over the world should be grateful that the U.S. almost single-handedly bears the burden of shielding Israel militarily and diplomatically from a cynical and often hostile world.

Melanie does the Jewish people an enormous disservice with her uncalled-for attacks on Obama and the country he leads.

Antonia

Phil, you are wrong -- you cannot make peace with your enemies, only with those who desire to stop being your enemies.
I know Rabin and Peres had initiated that idiotic line when they wanted to convince reluctant Israeli public of the rightness of Oslo and look where it got Israelis -- they imported terrorists, gave them territory, arms and legitimacy and in turn Israel got terrorism lost legitimacy and and is now being openly threatened with destruction, while the world at large is again demanding Jewish blood.

Antonia

Krishnan Nayar, have you lived under Socialism? I had. Believe me when I tell you, you'd not like it.
I don't think you would enjoy standing on line for hours to get a few rolls of toilet paper or sugar or whatever happens to be in short supply at the time. Believe me, Socialism works so wonderfully that there is always a short supply of something, usually whatever you need. And trust me, there is no democratic form of Socialism-- the two are not compatible.

b. matkin

Krishnan:

You're right, capitalism hasn't worked in the west for the past 250 years or so, we are all poor, under educated, squalid third world countries. We rely on the socialist countries of the world to feed us. Wall street has over the years impoverished most Americans, why not many Americans even own their own house or car. So, obviously bring the socialism on, look how prosperous Cuba, Venezuela, Russia and N. Korea are. In fact, could you move to France where its unemployment level is so low!
Fact is, you have no history, no logic, no intelligence. Someone should ban you from a keyboard as you make the smart socialists look very stupid indeed.

Conservative Cabbie

Carl

"Israel is the most likely country to use Nuclear weapons in a first strike. It cannot be trusted to have them."

Do you have any evidence for that statement? It's certainly had plenty of provocation in the past (Saddam Hussein's missile attacks in the Gulf War for one) but has always demonstrated the necessary restraint demanded of nuclear powers. Iran on the other hand has called for the annihilation of Israel, I'm betting they're the ones more likely to use it first.

Andre

Obama is a pragmatic politician keen to put distance between himself and Bush. However what i believe he is doing is spreading his arms wide and appearing as Mr Reasonable. 'Lets talk, lets consider the matter together' What remains to be seen is what he does when - as it surely will - there is a further terrorist outrage on US soil. He'll have tried being reasonable - maybe the Bush doctrine wasn't so unreasonable after all. Obama has already committed extra troops to Afghanistan. I know this sounds optimistic - but Obama is the west's best hope for regaining world moral credibility. America is the best place to be for personal and religious freedom, for democracy and wealth and being able to make something of yourself. Obama has said this many times and reaffirms family values. The debate will rage I know, but he is no fifth columnist. It will be interesting to see how he gets on with Bini Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman - I think he will find their strength of character attractive.

phil

Elena, Sderot I hope you do not for one moment think that I do do not stand foursquare with Israel and particularly the people of Sderot -I just have a differing idea of what will be best for the future,and seeing as there is nothing we can do about the path of the US administration I believe it is best not to alienate it before we see if it works ,attending conferences does not mean agreeing with one side or another ,there will be a debate ,baits ,threats and maybe pragmatism -you probably will not agree with me but in the end we will have to wait and see-I cannot for one moment think that talking legitimises the view of hamas or hesbollah ,what is the alternative ?surely not to continue killing each other until hell freezes over without some attempt to come to terms .

.Israel has many friends as you say ,do you not think they will have influence?
I f you read these threads you will have seen that I support you all the time but the purpose of democracy is to enable us to air our views even when they differ .Friends often have opposing ideas and that does not make them enemies -I assume Bibi and Tzipi both love Israel -they have different views so I hope you will allow me mine -shalom

will brooks

The entire could decide to stand against Israel if it so desired. And the entire would be defeated. God has not forgotten His promise to Israel. See Romans chapter 11.

So, if anyone objects to what He is going to do I suggest they take the matter up with the Most High

Occasional Ostrich

Funny how things change. 'way back in the early seventies, Yasser Arafat and Al Fatah were the terrorist organisation to whom nobody would speak. Now al Fatah is the recognised Palestinian government. So it ever was; Jomo Kenyatta moved from terrorist to president, as did Mandela, and at home we have Gerry Adams.
Less than a generation down the line we will have Hamas as a recognised political party, while yet another new splinter group will have espoused their present policies, as have the continuity IRA.
Perhaps it is better, after all, to try to short-circuit the whole proceedings?

VIOSR

Nice one Krishnan - once a big chunk of the world's population tires of the current trend using a (emphasis on the singular is deliberate) religion as a crutch for their bloodlust they could take up socialism instead. Stailn, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot, Castro, Mugabe, The Kim dynasty in North Korea have been or are all quite happy to slaughter the people in the name of the people when they've time on their hands and need distraction from trainwreck socialist 'economics'.
One thing that puzzles me - the anti-Israel/pro-Hamas/kill-a-kaffir [take your pick they're all the same]lobby bang on tiresomely about the 'threat' posed by Israel's bomb. Israel has had a bomb for 20+ years yet to date hasn't used it and that despite egregious and sustained provocation. That surely is prima facie proof of Israel's essential peaceful intent? Or do liberal brains work in some inherently superior way that allows one to set aside rational analysis of fact and instead rely on dogma, cant and prejudice?

Ronnie

It seems strange to me that Mel posts her latest piece of hysterical bile at the very moment when Bibi is confirmed as Prime Minister of Israel. Another piece written in a vacuum, or her marker for Bibi?

There is absolutely no way, on his past record, that Bibi will negotiate with Fatah or Hamas or anyone else for that matter, separately or collectively, without very, very, stringent pre-conditions, at the behest of anyone let alone a Democrat US President.

Furthermore, I can see no-way in which Fatah and Hamas would be able to negotiate jointly under any circumstances. And even if they could, the exercise would last no more than five minutes before they started shooting each other.

It's that simple.

It's a pity that there seems no way forward, but I wonder what most of you would do if it was genuinely possible? I have no doubt that many will attack Phil for his carefully expressed wish that the killing could stop...

I hope you all enjoy the rest of your festival of outrage, hysteria, rabid historical justification and thinly-veiled hatred.

Carl

Conservative Cabbie:-Because Israel is prone to attacking in vengeance, exacting as much damage as they can. The actions are utterly disproportionate, tanks, missiles and artillery against civilians. They are also about to get an extreme Right Wing government that will be very keen to demonstrate how tough they are, no doubt by more attacks on Palestinians or an invasion of Lebanon to make up for the humiliation they suffered in 2006.

Dave

Will: Nothing like a 2000 year old book written by shepherds for solving the problems of the modern world.

CelticLeopard

Conservative Cabbie asks for evidence that,

"Israel is the most likely country to use Nuclear weapons in a first strike. It cannot be trusted to have them." Do you have any evidence for that statement?

Lebanon 2006 and Gaza 2008/9 are ample evidence of Israel's lack of restraint ... and any common decency. Israel cannot be trusted ... and I am afraid, very afraid.

Sam Armstrong

Vision Aforethought: "a nice blend of socialism with ethical capitalism would be a way forward"

And there was me thinking that we had been blending the two since WW2, with 'Chavs' being the end result.

Conservative Cabbie

Ronnie
"I have no doubt that many will attack Phil for his carefully expressed wish that the killing could stop..."

I think many of us regulars realise that Phil is a genuinely decent guy and would have no intention of attacking him...som may disagree but there's nothing wrong with that.

"I hope you all enjoy the rest of your festival of outrage, hysteria, rabid historical justification and thinly-veiled hatred."

Because you've been so tempered in your judgement of George W Bush haven't you?

Krishnan Nayar

To: AMERICAN, HARLEYDAVIDSON, MATKIN, ANTONIA, VISOR and others who have replied associating me with North Korea, Cuba and other totalitarian dictatorships just because I spoke of moving towards DEMOCRATIC socialsm.....

Please be fair enough to note that I did say DEMOCRATIC socialism. I did NOT mean Stalin and Castro.

I am glad to have caused such umbrage among you. You are not used to thinking beyond the very limited narrow-minded ideas you are sworn to, and it is good to shake your minds up a little.

Is democratic socialism possible? We have to try for it when the existing system, Thatcherite capitalism, has failed so miserably.

It is all very well blaming the Wall Street crash on poor mortgage owners encouraged to borrow by Democratic administrations. That is a cheap copout. We still need to know why supposedly very well informed financial institutions used those mortgages for further vast lending operations.

The truth is that the SYSTEM is rotten. It made it necessary for bankers to play complicated games with debt that no-one understood. As one banker remarked, when the music was laying, you had to dance.

Now it has all crashed.

We need to regulate the banking system and financial services so that this kind of behaviour does not happen again, ruining the lives of tens of millions of people.

Blaming individuals or parties for the failure of economic systems is utterly stupid. It is like the Soviets blaming the failure of their system on workers not working hard enough. We still have to ask: WHY are they not working hard? Because the system had no incentives for such behaviour. The same principle - wrong incentives - applies to the behaviour of bankers today.

A toughly regulated financial services sector and much greater government role in the economy by my book does amount to socialism. Excellent. Since the US is so important a sector of the world economy, its move towards socialism (democratic) will be a colossal historical advance. As Marx predicted: socialism will ONLY succeed when it is implemented by ADVANCED countries, not backward ones like Russia. And Russia in any case slid into totalitarianism. To equate socialism with Russia is like saying Christianity equals the Ku Klux Klan. Grow up, will you?

Let Israel grow up, too. Let it become self-reliant instead of caterwaulng for US support every minute.

Michael B

Tangential only, but for those seeking to blame market forces per se: Thomas Sowell: Upside Down Economics.

Conservative Cabbie

VIOSR
"Or do liberal brains work in some inherently superior way that allows one to set aside rational analysis of fact and instead rely on dogma, cant and prejudice?"

Yes. It's called relativism.

Ann

"At long last we have a President of America who isnt in the grasp of the Israel lobby, who doesnt offer himself and his post up as a subsidary of Israels Government, and look how the Israel lobby is trembling!"

It's the Joos! It's the Joos! Screech! Screech! The Jooish tentacles control the universe! Screech! Screech!

Ann

"I know one can only make peace with one,s enemies and talking to them in order to try to achieve it does not mean either you like them or agree with them ,but ignoring one another will achieve nothing"

Ignorant mealy-mouthed nonsense. In 1938 you would have been Chamberlain's bagman, going to 'talk to Hitler' to 'make peace with the Nazis'. Deranged genocidal antisemites like the Nazis and Iran don't want peace: they want to kill Jews. Talking to them is pointless.

"when did Israel ever rely on outside help anyway ?"

Nonsense. Have you actually lived in Israel? I doubt it. Have you ever served in the IDF? I doubt it. Israel is not ominipotent (despite the idiots who think that the Joos control the universe). It needs help in various ways, including military hardware, intelligence etc.

Ann

Derek shoots himself in the foot - as usual - with his inability to follow simple logic, and then accuses MP of doing that - priceless!
Here in simple words:
1. It took military means to crush the IRA's ability to murder people.
2. Hamas is far more genocidal, powerful and deranged than the IRA ever was.
3. Therefore, it will take military means to crush Hamas's ability to murder people.
Maybe one day you'll get it. I doubt it, though.

Ann

"Anyway, why shouldn't Iran have the bomb? Israel does, and it's hardly a stable nation."

LOL. The voice of knowledge and sanity. Or something.
Not a stable nation? ROFLMAO.
You don't really like Jews, do you? In any event, you know **** all about Israel. Tiny, surrounded by enemies, at war for 60 years, it is a world leader in high-tech. Eat your heart out.

Elena, Sderot

Phil, you keep saying things like ‘the purpose of democracy is to enable us to air our views even when they differ‘, but then keep coming out with lines like this: ‘there is nothing we can do about the path of the US administration’ and ‘the man [Obama] needs support until proven wrong’.

I don’t know why you think all political debate over the direction of the US President’s foreign policy somehow stops between November 4 last year and the next election, because I don’t remember anybody saying of George Bush’s presidency: everybody must be silent for four years and not question this man‘s leadership. Far from it, everybody felt free to put their oar in from day one. Why have the rules changed? Now with this man Obama, everybody is apparently supposed to sit there and worship until he is proven wrong. So wait until we’re pulverised and then complain? No thanks.

Everybody could question George Bush all they liked it seems, the Press seemed to delight when people burned effigies of him or threw shoes at him, but Obama? No questions asked. As you might put it, Phil, we must now all apparently sit ‘to wait and see’.

Only we don’t have to wait and see, Phil, because we know what happened at Durban I.

You go on: ‘attending conferences does not mean agreeing with one side or another’. When the ‘conference’ is rigged such that it allows ‘multiple resolutions against Israel, while no other country could have more than one resolution run against it each year’, then that’s no ‘conference’ in any real sense of the word, at all, is it?

‘I cannot for one moment think that talking legitimises the view of hamas or Hezbollah’ - well then, Phil, let us thank G-d you are not a politician, because to hold talks with these people enables them to say to their electorate that they were right and that moderate Arab voices are wrong.

You say: ‘what is the alternative ?’ You‘ve spelt it out Phil: ‘I really think the Arabs are getting fed up with the status quo’. Precisely. The alternative is that those people who have supported Hamas, Hezbollah and A’jad say ‘we’ve had enough of you and your terror tactics’. They are few enough in number already, but if those Arab intellectuals who are trying to instigate a reformist agenda have their efforts thrown back in their faces by a deluded West that simply pulls the rug from under their feet then what hope is there? How can Arab moderates then say to other people: ‘My way is better, we do not say Israel has no right to exist’ if the West says: ‘Let’s treat Hamas, Hezbollah and A’jad etc with respect’?

With an attitude like that, the moderates can never make any headway.

Conservative Cabbie

Carl/CelticLeopard

But none of what you say is evidence that they will use nuclear weapons. They've had them since the mid-70's and have suffered all kinds of provocation but have kept their fingers off the nuclear trigger.

CelticLeopard say's he's afraid. I'm afraid too. Afraid of terrorist organisations and countries that want to wipe Israel off the map, who want to kill Jews, who are undemocratic, who target Israel with pre-emptive strikes and who are prepared to sacrifice themselves to bring about the death of Israelis. Those are the type of people less likely to show restraint when they have their hands on a bomb (dirty or otherwise).

George Laird

Dear Melanie

Your start;

“After merely one calendar month, Obama’s foreign policy has already been disastrous for the defenders of the free world”.

Is this not a little too early to be casting judgement? After all would you consider the Bush years as producing anything less than chaos?

It is always going to get worse before it gets better because Obama’s approach and focus is about dialogue and getting things done. Doing something is much more hard work than doing nothing.

Set backs will happen but don’t write off Obama as weak; if Iran poses a threat; he would use military action to destroy their weapons capability, he would have no option. I therefore don’t see Obama has weak because he is taking a leadership position.

You comment that Hamas has not accepted previous Palestinian-Israeli agreements; why should they when they were not involved? Did you accept any agreements made by the former owner of your house? If someone proposed that, would say they were bonkers and it was nothing to do with you?

The Israelis have to get a dialogue with the elected Hamas Government and drive through change. Hamas has taken steps and shifted position; they used the ballot box. It therefore falls that the introduction of a civil government and proper infrastructure would transform lives.

What is the most important thing that a politician is interested in?

Getting re-elected!

You write;

“Obama is strengthening it (Hamas) by granting it legitimacy”.

Hamas already has that through the ballot box, are you seriously suggesting that Obama adopts some cack handed approach? Where is the sense in that position for any career diplomat trying to gain concessions?

“By strengthening Hamas, Obama also strengthens its puppet-master Iran”.

I would say the opposite, by removing the Palestinian problem from the world stage; it would pull the rug out from the extremists completely.

When you talk about a fifth communist in the White House, do you mean that anyone who doesn’t support the failed status quo must be a traitor? Who are they exactly betraying?

Finally, although your article talks a lot about Hamas, it is surprising light on their current views. That is the problem, too many of the wrong people are talking and tell the world what the Palestinians opinions are, when they should be doing that for themselves.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Krishnan Nayar

CARL, CELTICLEOPARD:

So you say Israel retaliates to Arab attacks "disproportionatly"?

What on earth is a "proportionate" response?

How do you know that if Israel is mild in her retaliation the Arabs will not just think they can afford to STEP UP attacks?

How do you know that it is precisely Israel's very tough and devastating retaliation which has prevented neighbours like Egypt, Jordan, saudi Arabia, Lebanon, and even Iran from intervening wholesale to make the Gaza militants' attacks a hundred times more powerful?

I speak as a person of Indian backgound.

In India, Pakistani terrorist attacks in Kashmir began in the mid 1980s. The Indians made some verbal protests, but did not retaliate in the least against Pakistan. No doubt people like you would praise India for such sweet "restraint" in the face of Islamist thuggery. But did this help India? Not in the least. Pakistan RIGHTLY concluded that the Indians were soft boobies and hugely stepped up their activities to export Islamist terrorism - to such an extent that now the terror factory is far too powerful for the Pakistani government to shut down when it is threatening its OWN urvival and - ha ha, joke! - even the security of loving friends and allies of Pakistan all these years like the USA and the UK.

I blame INDIA for all this, NOT Pakistan. Because, like ISRAEL, the Indians should have hit the Pakistanis such hard blows right at the beginning in the 1980s that these fellows would have decided to wind down the terror game against India.

If Israel is stupid enough to take your clueless complacent advice and play softly-softly with Arab terrorism, it will be wiped out very fast.

Luckily, Israelis are bright and tough and will rightly hammer Hamas and all Arabs who trifle with their security.

Conservatice Cabbie

Dave

A 2000 year old book that still resonates with millions today. Is a book by a discredited political philosopher (Marx) any more valid. That 2000 year old book has guided the moral values of the west, the most successful 'civilisation' in world history. I'd say it's done fairly well so far.

I should point out that I'm not a believer but do respect the faith and the way it's guided the western world.

Adam B.

Celtic leopard, on the contrary, 2006 in Lebanon and 2008/9 in Gaza demonstrate Israel's restraint, as these were both responses to unbridled aggression against Israel, aggression which had gone on for YEARS. Israel had nuclear weapons in 1973, when they were (again) attacked by the Arab states on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar. Despite this existential threat, heavy losses and initially being on the backfoot, there was no threat of Israel using nuclear weapons, even in this darkest of hours. Nuclear weapons are an insurance policy - and Israel is a democracy. Iran on the other hand works tirelessly against the west, kills British troops in Iraq, illegally kidnaps British sailors from inernational waters, and is led by a Holocaust denier who invites neo-Nazis to Holocaust denying conferences, openly threatens to wipe Israel off the map (Israel has never made such threats against another sovereign nation) and presides over a justice system which buries women up to their waists to be stoned to death, hangs gay people from cranes and hangs children in public.

Your "fear" is, I believe, invented, and also misplaced.

An American

Harley Davidson,

Great blog...

But, how do we get ourselves out of this quagmire that is taking us under?

When I see what Obama and his cronies are doing daily to this country...and Bush and our gutless Rep. Congress are partially to blame for this mess too...I am beside myself.

What can Americans do to stop this madness?

Does it all have to implode first?

Obama is a lot like FDR...does that mean we'll have to sacrifice our grandsons and country to a WWIII this leftist fraud and his cronie Congress might bring about to save their socialist experiment?

Is history repeating itself?

beloved

Don Phoenix writes: Obama would have to accidently push the button on America and nuke us for the liberals to question him - and even then they´ll blame it on Bush.

beloved: hahahahahaaa!

Don continues: Obama looks to me like the kid in the Monty Python movie who for punishment has to play rugby with the big boys. He´s out of his league, scared, confused, and never believed he´d actually be where he is.

beloved: You really think so? I hear a demagogue when he speaks, and as time passes, the more focused that becomes. He scares me when he says "crisis" every other sentence. He sounds like a wolf about to eat us, sheeple and all.

Don: Deer in the headlights. He´s a mess. Says a lot about the American voter. We should have a test before we are allowed to vote; something that proves the voter knows the issues and where the candidates stand on them. If you´re an ignorant fool and clueless, you can´t vote.

beloved: We used to call it "school." Good luck on that. Do you ever listen to man-on-the-street interviews? Just the other day, an O voter could not name the VP. The best we can say is he knew there IS a VP. (He saw a name printed under Obama's name when he voted.) The next milestone for O'voter won't come until he becomes curious about the immediate world around him. Until then, don't bother informing him that Congress exists. The O-voter won't remember you told him when he wakes up for breakfast tomorrow. It is even more pointless to raise current issues and debates, such as the Generational Theft Act, or another example of federal abuse of power against an individual private citizen. Example: Gibbs and the White House calling on Democratic Party members in government agencies, the media, and on the street to persecute, silence, and ruin the life of a private citizen i.e., Joe the Plumber, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and the latest American hero, Rick Santelli...

BTW, Rick Santelli reminds me of Abe Lincoln and JFK.

HarleyDavidson

Phil
I write regarding your February 20th, 2009 7:13pm blog. With respect, you have every right to advance ideas in a democracy. Your defense of Israel is not in question, however, I find myself disagreeing with your suggestion. If I could advance a somewhat opposite view perhaps we'll get to the bottom of the problem.

You say things have to change, the status quo must change. The killing must stop. I seem to recall two massive changes to the Middle East namely the Oslo Agreement that Arafat single handedly torpedoed when he was offered a nation state and refused. His own state, Phil. It doesn't get any better than that. Here was the moment the world had been waiting for the Israelis were on side, the Americans, the EU. I watched Arafat and Rabin shake hands on television. But that was just for public consumption. Arafat then started Intifada 1. For what? What did this moron cost his people? Barak, PM at the time, even went so far as to prove his intentions by removing ALL Israeli troops out of Lebanon. What more proof did Arafat need? However, we all know how Lebanon and the offer for statehood turned out. Both are history.

Then along came Sharon and followed up by Olmert. Both changed the face of the Palestinian/Israeli situation irrevocably. All Jewish settlers and military were completely removed from Gaza. Kadima even won an election based on a two state solution and finding peace with the Palestinians. Olmert even went so far as to have backdoor talks with Syria with the intent of returning the Golan Heights back to Syria in return for peace if Syria would curtail their involvement with Iran.

Once again, the Middle East radically changed. Here was the opportunity, once again, for the Palestinians to grasp the moment. Olmert, say what you will about Olmert, but this man truly wanted peace and almost at any cost. No one since Rabin or Barak for that matter was prepared to go to the wall for being that historical leader who made a lasting peace with Palestinians. What a moment in time. What an incredible opportunity. And once again the Palestinian leadership, true to form, never failed to miss a chance to miss a chance. Intifada 2 was the answer. Thousands of rockets from Gaza mocked Olmert and continue to fall even as I write.

The cost to Olmert, personally and politically, is almost too much to write. Livni, who ran this election on the two state solution, also paid an enormous price for the ongoing actions of both Hamas and the Palestinian leadership. Here, once again, was the Palestinian moment in time. They knew Kadima was their path forward to their own state. They knew the stakes better than anyone. Did the Palestinian leadership and even Palestinians themselves work toward just three months of quite to give Kadima something, anything, to take to the Israeli public and say here is what we offer, peace with our neighbors. This is indeed the path toward peace in OUR time. Even the world failed to support Kadima. The left wing of the world failed to support Kadima, their best hope for peace in the region. Does it get any more idiotic than that?

I respectfully disagree with your blog, Phil. There's a saying we use over our way, you can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. The Israeli people voted twice for Kadima and got so little in return. Now the people voted Bibi this time around. But even then the Israeli people still voted one more seat for Kadima, just not enough this time. However, one can easily say the Israeli people by their Kadima voting for years still yearn for peace. They just need a partner to negotiate with on the Palestinian side, preferably a world class individual in the image of a Sadat who could see the big picture and the benefits for their two peoples.

Elena, Sderot

Phil, you keep saying things like ‘the purpose of democracy is to enable us to air our views even when they differ‘, but then keep coming out with lines like this: ‘there is nothing we can do about the path of the US administration’ and ‘the man [Obama] needs support until proven wrong’.

I don’t know why you think all political debate over the direction of the US President’s foreign policy somehow stops between November 4 last year and the next election, because I don’t remember anybody saying of George Bush’s presidency: everybody must be silent for four years and not question this man‘s leadership. Far from it, everybody felt free to put their oar in from day one. Why have the rules changed? Now with this man Obama, everybody is apparently supposed to sit there and worship until he is proven wrong. So wait until we’re pulverised and then complain? No thanks.

Everybody could question George Bush all they liked it seems, the mainstream Western press seemed to delight when certain people burned effigies of him or threw shoes at him, but Obama? No questions asked. As you might put it, Phil, we must now all apparently sit ‘to wait and see’.

Only we don’t have to wait and see, Phil, because we know what happened at Durban I.

You go on: ‘attending conferences does not mean agreeing with one side or another’. When the ‘conference’ is rigged such that it allows ‘multiple resolutions against Israel, while no other country could have more than one resolution run against it each year’, then that’s no ‘conference’ in any real sense of the word, at all, is it?

You say: ‘I cannot for one moment think that talking legitimises the view of hamas or Hezbollah’ - well then, Phil, let us thank G-d you are not a politician, because to hold talks with these people enables them to say to their electorate that they were right and that moderate Arab voices are wrong.

You say: ‘what is the alternative ?’ You‘ve spelt it out Phil: ‘I really think the Arabs are getting fed up with the status quo’. Precisely. The alternative is that those people who have supported Hamas, Hezbollah and A’jad say ‘we’ve had enough of you and your terror tactics’. If those moderates who are trying to instigate a reformist agenda have their efforts thrown back in their faces by a deluded West that simply pulls the rug from under their feet then what hope is there? How can moderates then say to other people: ‘My way is better, we do not say Israel has no right to exist’ if the West says: ‘Let’s treat Hamas, Hezbollah and A’jad etc with respect’?

With an attitude like that, the moderates can never make any headway.

Dave

Conservative Cabbie: Honestly I could care less abour Marx! I appreciate faith is important for many. A source of comfort. And that's lovely.
But lets face it there are some very bonkers people who justify their behaviour via recourse to their holy book
Will's comment was just jaw dropping. How could that kind of approach help?

Ann

"Lebanon 2006 and Gaza 2008/9 are ample evidence of Israel's lack of restraint ... and any common decency."

Yes, those Joos - how dare they defend themselves?

You don't know the first thing about decency.

Ann

More nonsense from the wee Laird:

"Hamas has taken steps and shifted position; they used the ballot box"

Err, no, actually ... they grabbed total power through a bloody coup, and are still murdering their political opponents with gay abandon.
Do some reading before posting your ignorant statements, laddie.

HarleyDavidson

An American
Quite correctly, you ask "Does it all have to implode first?" No doubt America will be the first to know and understand the answer. However, with Powers, Jones, Rice, Chas Freeman another vicious anti-Israeli member of his team touted as the new head of the National Intelligence Council we do know who Obama is surrounding himself with and his likely direction going forward. Not to forget Durban 2 as an Obama active policy.

What do we do? I like to remind myself there are congressional elections in less than two years and then two years after that the big one again. We also know Iran and their proxies armies of Gaza and Lebanon is as much of a threat to Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and the rest of the moderate Arabs states in the region. Then we know what the private messages will be flowing from those states and I sincerely believe this type of behind the scenes pressure especially in this most volatile of regions are arguably the best form of soft power to moderate Obama going forward. No doubt much of what those moderate state say behind closed doors will be echoed by many other EU and Canadians naturally all behind closed doors and not for public consumption. Few dare to say in public what is said in private.

So with the elections in mind Americans have to re-engage with friends who talk with friends and prepare themselves for the next election. Demand of republicans and conservatives especially to hold Obama's feet to the political fire. Remember, all honeymoons come to an end as will Obama's. Furthermore, Obama's stimulus plan is a democrat plan unready mocked by wall street (BTW I saw the video and it was really harsh available on Fox yesterday) and that says everything that needs to be said. However, the plan turns out America may temporarily flourish and I hope it does, but without an entire world economy to support the effort Obama's plan is useless. It is the world who buys American goods and services and who we sell to in return without which no single plan alone can succeed.

If one were to glance around at the rest of the world's economic condition the EU, Britain, Japan, and even China are in a world of extreme hurt debt wise. China's housing sector is collapsing which was the driving force behind China revolution, the chance for individual Chinese folks to own their own homes was massive and one talks of a billion people that's a lot of demand now laying empty.

The national debts of countless nations along with layoffs that inevitable follow throughout the world is just beginning to come into play. Tensions few of us even suspect possible will soon make themselves known. Internal problems that massive layoffs bring to a nation and its peoples are beginning to be evident in many nations across the globe. Its gonna get a whole lot worse before we even begin to see some normalcy anywhere. Obama will have his hands full in short order as will every other nation on earth. We've just began to witness the economic chaos that is being unleashed on the world and we're all going along on the ride.

The next two years are gonna make and break many governments worldwide. Obama included. Confucius said; "May you live in interesting times." This is gonna be one heck of an interesting ride for us all. How we all emerge from the other side is THE unknowable mystery.

Carl

Ann, Israel invaded Lebanon in 2006 and then ran away when they faced opposition from fighters with rudimentary weapons. It was a massive and well deserved victory for Hezbollah against a vicious invader.

Prof. Ethan

I usually agree with Melanie, but George Friedman had an important column in Stratfor.com where he pointed out that Joe Biden at the Munich Security Conference in early February (1) straightforwardly continued the Bush policy re Iran (yes, let's talk--after you stop your nuclear armament and support of terrorists, everything is possible), and (2) continued as well the Ballistic Missle Defense program for eastern Europe.

Biden's stance angered both the Iranians and the Russians. Biden's insistence on increased German military participation in Afghanistan (a point Obama made in July in his speech in Berlin) nonplussed the German govt as well.

In view of this, I'm taking a "wait and see" attitude, in the grim confidence as well that the Palestinians will never miss and opportunity to miss an opportunity (if one even exists here).

Jenny

May we live in interesting times, indeed, HarleyDavidson. I wish I wasn’t so terrified that I can hardly focus on finding them interesting. Ms Phillips titles one of her posts below: “A requiem for British decency”, my foremost fear is that I visit here one day and have to see her write “A Requiem for a Nation”.

Spiteful Carl, February 20th, 2009 7:54pm, says: ‘Israel is the most likely country to use Nuclear weapons in a first strike. It cannot be trusted to have them.’

Why, then, Carl, do Ms Phillips’ thoughts match up exactly with Iranian-born commentator Amil Imani: who says: “The Islamic Republic has started a nuclear program, not for peaceful purposes, as they claim, but only to prolong their unwanted existence long enough to get their hands on the bomb so that they can feel invincible and continue their control over the armless Iranian people and ultimately export their version of Shi'a Islam and terrorism around the globe.

“What is the likelihood that the ruling Mullahs will actually use their new toy? If they remain in power long enough to have it, they are very likely to use it, in one form or another. At the very least, they will use the bomb for blackmail and intimidation in the region. Not even the all-out nuclear exchange can be ruled out.”

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/02/chaos_crisis_and_terror_serves.html

Separately, I have just read this on The Spectator’s website and I am in total shock:

www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3378001/official-iran-told-hmg-it-was-killing-british-troops-in-iraq.thtml

Why is this not a front-page story? I know the bulk of the British Press these days is by and large totally mad. But this is just astonishing. I knew it was going on anyway, of course, thanks to Melanie Phillips’ blog, but here it is brazenly placed in front of the British government as a bargaining tool to let Iran get the bomb - and apart from The Spectator’s Coffee House, no other mainstream paper thinks this is an important story. And they wonder why we talk about the media’s Fifth Column.

This is essential, too:

www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3376981/british-politicians-must-start-talking-about-iran.thtml

The ghastly George Laird takes issue with James Forsyth’s post. Perhaps Mr Laird, too, can answer Amil Imani?

Adam B.

More revisionism from Carl. In 2006, Hezbollah, an organisation which shares Hamas' declared desire to kill all Jews on earth (which Carl has no problem with - as he has demonstrated repeatedly) crossed the border from Lebanon into Israel. The border had been quiet for some time. The terrorists kidnapped two soldiers from inside Israel, and killed a further 8 in the process of the kidnapping. Before Israel responded, Hizbollah launched hundreds of katyusha missiles at Israeli civilians, deliberately targeting these civilians, in the hope of killing and maiming innocents. When Israeli innocents were indeed murdered in these missile barrages, there were celebrations by Hizbollah at the deaths. In order to bring the kidnapped soldiers home, Israel released, amongst others, Samir Kuntar, who repeatedly bashed a 4 year old child's head to a pulp with a rock, after having drowned her father in front of her. Kuntar also broke into the family home, where a terrified mother, hiding in a cupboard, accidentally suffocated her own child in an attempt to stifle her cries from Kuntar. Kuntar also killed a policeman investigating the break in.

This child murderer received a hero's welcome by Carl's admired Hizbollah (for his child murdering skills) and a party put on by the Al Jazeera TV network. the two Israeli soldiers were returned - in coffins, despite the fact that they were alive when forcibly taken to Lebanon.

Carl whines that Israel dared to respond to 4000 katyushas from Lebanon, just as he whines about Israel responding to 6000 Kassam and Grad missiles fired from Gaza by other Jew haters intent on genocide (they make no sectre of their intentions). It beggars belief that Carl displays his grotesque affection for this terrorist, Nazi organisation, and it beggars belief that we entertain his sick ideas. Carl has no moral compass whatsoever, and any professed concern for "human rights" on his part is sheer hypocrisy. One has to wonder what motivates people like Carl, patricia, ruth, derek blades etc. who visit a blog with which they always disagree, to incessantly spout hatred against israel, and Israel alone, in the world. They aren't interested in an exchange of ideas, as they have shown; these people are all hypocrites, motivated by an obsessive and disturbing hatred. Sick.

beloved

An American and Other An Americans,

Look for "Tea Party U.S.A.: The movement grows" By Michelle Malkin, February 21, 2009. She publishes emails and websites of a grassroot movement that you may be interested in. I found a group near my house. You don't have to dress up, but you are invited to dump our US tax system into the nearest body of water. Thus Now to tyrants!

b.matkin

Dear Krishnan:

Democratic Socialism? Is that somehow different than any other socialism except in degree?

Socialism is an ideology that believes that Government can make better decisions with your money than you can. Democratic Socialism merely means either a mixed economy or that the majority dictate to the minority what to do with the productivity of the nation. There is no difference to the socialism practiced by Cuba as opposed to France. France has just chosen to let a little more free market mix in than Cuba. The results are the same except in degree. Higher unemployment, lower standard of living, more stupid entitlements, cradle to grave government jobs resulting in really inefficient government.
Everyone complains that they can't get a driver's license without a lot of trouble, and then they vote for more of the same. Stupid sheep. So Baaa to you, Krishnan

Ann

"Ann, Israel invaded Lebanon in 2006 and then ran away when they faced opposition from fighters with rudimentary weapons. It was a massive and well deserved victory for Hezbollah against a vicious invader."

LOL. It's hilarious to see the Jew-haters convincing themselves that black is white and day is night in their desperate scramble to say bad things about the Joos.
Victory, eh? Then perhaps you could tell us why Hezbollah was not only quiet as a mouse during Cast Lead, but its leaders even rushed to say that the few rockets fired at Israel from Lebanon during that time were 'Nothing to do with me, Guv' (which is the exact opposite of their usual vainglorious boasting). They did this, of course, because they were terrified that Israel might bomb them again if they were seen to be helping Hamas. And they were terrified because their infrastructure was decimated in 2006, and another round with Israel would leave them with nothing. Yes, some victory.
As for the usual screeching about 'vicious invader': Israel was minding its business, and Hezbollah started murdering its citizens. I do know that to people like you this is a win-win situation - I mean, Joos were being murdered. But if you think that Israel will not respond to the murder of its citizens, like any other country, I am afraid that your Jew-hatred is making you live in la-la land.

Conservative Cabbie

Dave

I wasn't linking you to Marx, I was just drawing a distinction between faith based guides to moral values and the reason based guides of Marx, Hume, Burke, Rousseau et al. I chose Marx because of the influence that his writing had.

Peopl respond to the bible in their own way and if Will wants to quote it, then that's fine by me. Whether you like it or not, our morality, yours included, is based on the bible. It has a permanence that books emanating from the Age of Reason do not have yet. His approach may not 'help', but your response suggests it may hinder. I'm not convinced of that because if his world view is guided by the bible, then his moral views probably are too and I maintain that that is a good thing.

phil

HarleyDavidson -what you have said to me basically I agree with, but my view is that Obama is trying to make inroads to Arab previous policy .I think he will fail !! but he believes that he has to try, and for us that is a win win situation -if he changes their minds there may be peace and if he loses we will all know where we stand and so will he .-Elena and An American no doubt will say they already know and as I have said I AGREE !! but we have an American president who will pursue his policy anyhow ,so what is the point of us alienating him prior to a conclusion .

Oil revenues are reducing for the Arabs ,Islamisation is a huge threat ,DUBAI must show there is another way of life for them too ,so there will probably be a large split in the way they think .I also believe it would be foolish to dismiss Obama for a fool or a knave and we must remember that this is the view of a large majority of intelligent Americans.

-The president can do no right for both the ladies (AA and Elena)and I am sorry they feel that way ,but I must say to AN American I am not honour bound to agree with everything Mel says ,what would be the point of writing here? and I have no intention of wearing a frilly frock and being a cheer leader-we are both on the same side we just have differing views of the best outcome for us all . Do any of you think we can make progress by using the vitriol that pours out of Ann ?-Behaviour like hers guarantee hate forever ,and my wish is to see my family eventually live in peace .Elena I reiterate my support for you ,that support has never wavered from the time of our blue boxes of my childhood .

Cabbie thanks for the kind words .our views maysometimes, differ but our hearts do not.

JENNY "The ghastly George Laird takes issue with James Forsyth’s post. Perhaps Mr Laird, too, can answer Amil Imani?" He cannot answer anything Jenny he is an imposter -he just spouts lies and bile -we can rise above those like him ,a minority of very sick minds .

GutClean

Indeed there is no direct analogy with Northern Ireland: that is to say indeed the IRA, like Hamas, was determined to replace a constitutional grouping of counties of the UK with one of their own making and they were entirely unscrupulous and indiscrimate about their methods and we may well surmise, had their rhetoric approached the Arab tradition, would have included bloodthirsty threats to wipe Protestantism off the face of the earth; but there the similarity ends because we did not go after them with helicopters and gunships but rather our security forces as part of a law-enforcement process which was always careful to insist it was not waging a war with the IRA quietly infiltrated their ranks until they could function no further and it was this that eventually forced them to the negotiating tables.

You say Hamas is far from defeated. So it is. The aim of the recent Israeli offensive was to rebalance the equation and to act as deterrence in the same way as the bloody but in that single respect succesful previous offensive in Lebanon.

To defeat Hamas in Gaza in the first place would be to export the problem somewhere else from Gaza and secondly is infeasible if only on economic grounds because it would involve occupying Gaza and supporting its population.

So here you are with an implacable enemy you can't defeat and what does Mel suggest?

Basically don't talk no way and the subtext pretty well something along the lines because they're all a bunch of savages and probably not even intelligent enough to last a couple of minutes on The Moral Maze and all the while the clock ticks on to armageddon and nuclear resolution.

To deal briefly with Arabic rhetoric the tradition is to say something as beautifully or as strikingly as you can, form over content, but never to attempt to surpass the beauty of the Qur'an and which is generally achieved by liberally quoting from it.

If Israeli rhetoric followed the same pattern there would be plenty of bloodcurdling passages along the lines of very numerous examples one can quote from the Old Testament and well I hesitate to quote Richard Dawkins (I happen not to be an admirer) but here goes anyway "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully”.

The unfailing lesson of history is that states wholly dependent on naked power eventually fail - it was as true of the Roman empire that subjugated Judaism and then burnt itself out culturally as it was of the USSR in rather similar circumstances in recent times and it will be as true, 'to compare great things with small', for the state of Israel, nuclear arsenal and all, and the present time is ripe ok - a brief bubble of gold and diamond trading perhaps and then ... poof ... and it might well be in a mushroom cloud that poof.

Israel desperately needs real prophets at this hour.

Carl

Because Adam, I visit to remind people like you that there are many in this world sickened by Israel's continued violence and brutality against Palestinian civilians.

The fact that your postings have descended into hysterical personal abuse demonstrate that you know that you are wrong, your blind propaganda is no longer acceptable.

How you even dare to whine about Israeli soldiers being captured is beyond me, the kidnap of Hamas and Hezbollah suspects by Israel is routine.

Straydingo

Carl,

I do not know Adam but thought I would read his post following your comments accusing his postings of "descending into hysterical personal abuse".

His comments were certainly not personal and in fact were quite lucid and to the point - obviously you are mistaking passion for hysteria.

The fact is you are unable to approach this topic objectively as to do so would mean questioning your whole belief structure which I strongly suspect is rooted in a left-wing ideology that believes that all that is wrong in the world is because of the USA, Israel and Western Democracy.

The fact you avoid addressing the points Adam raised also demonstrates that your overall knowledge on this subject is light at best.

Straydingo

HarleyDavidson,

Your post of February 20th, 2009 11:37pm was BANG on target.

Sweetie

Carl and George Laird,is it just Israelis in particular or Jews in general that you cannot abide? An answer would help us understand your mindset.

Dixon

GutClean
February 22nd, 2009 12:56pm
Indeed there is no direct analogy with Northern Ireland: that is to say indeed the IRA, like Hamas, was determined to replace a constitutional grouping of counties of the UK with one of their own making and they were entirely unscrupulous and indiscrimate about their methods and we may well surmise, had their rhetoric approached the Arab tradition, would have included bloodthirsty threats to wipe Protestantism off the face of the earth; but there the similarity ends because we did not go after them with helicopters and gunships..."

As a matter of fact "we" did! Or isnt a Westland Wessex with pintle mounted GPMGs aeither a "helicopter" or a "gunship" in your book? "We" also had a genuine military occupation of Ulster, security ( "peace" ) walls, checkpoints, control towers all over the place, SAS ambushings, snatch squads, assassinations ( allegedly ), tacit allowance for counter-bombings and terrorist activity by "loyalists". Etc, Etc, etc...indeed, a whole litany of things that Israel is decried as a "NAZI" state for in any way modestly deploying. Sure, there was a "troops out" movement, but Britain and the British were not villified in the way that Israrel is.

Then what about the analogy of Turkeys actions, invading and bombing northern Iraq to decimate the Kurds. I see no prime-time demos over that either.

The Irish analogy is also silly in that Eire ( the state, as opposed to many of its citizens who no doubt endorsed the IRA ) was not a friend of the IRA either, neither allowing it free reign nor materially supporting it whereas Hamas OWNS Gaza!

Moreover, oif you propose a "policing" as opposed to "military" response to Hamas, analogous to the British and the IRA, you have the fact that whilst the IRA membershio was largely IN British policed territory, Hamas is NOT based in the Israeli population. Thats the problem. How do you use "police" methods when its another state, whose "criminals" are in control?

Ros Morris

Actually, Carl, you post here to remind us that there are people like you who sicken us with their continued acceptance of the violence and brutality perpetrated by Hamas and Hezbollah against Israeli citizens. Your blind propaganda is no longer acceptable.

beloved

Hi Phil,

We're on the same side of this issue, but I believe you cannot talk evil people into behaving nicely. The nature of evil is fixed and unchangeable. The only way to deal with evil is to confront it in the same spirit a little kid successfully stops a bully on the playground. Draw a line in the sand and dare him to cross it. Make it more painful for him to continue than it is worth. This method has proved successful historically, against tyrants who want to rule the world, terrorists who throw wheelchair bound persons into the ocean, or spouses who terrorize their families. This way speaks about the nature of evil and not about the targets of evil. The only thing terrorists want to negotiate is how they are going to kill us. We are in this together with Israel.

Ann

Sweetie, define 'mind'.

And while you are at it, lend some to phil, who has the impertinence to complain about me when he pours abuse on me non-stop. He could do with a couple of brain cells to grasp what a hypocrite he is.

Ann

beloved, you won't get through to phil. He is not only ignorant about history - his whole basis for posting is his smug conviction that he is 'morally superior'. His approach is the one guaranteed to prolong the bloodshed, because appeasing Hamas will simply strengthen their conviction that they are immune from the consequences of their actions. But he doesn't care, as long as his own hands remain Persil white and someone else does the hard work for him.

beloved

Jane writes: I applaud Canada for taking a stand against the Durban 2 hate fest. I fear for my own country, America, which has elected someone we know so little about and who has so little experience. One thing we do know is that for 20 years he attended a church that was rabidly anti-Israel. I guess he was either convinced or was among those doing the convincing.

beloved responds: Yeah, bleep, bleep those gun toting, God clinging, southern, redneck, blood for oil, neocons in Canada! and bleep, bleep those capitalist bleeps over in greedy imperialist Russia, lecturing Our Dearest Leader of the Approved Party on granting access of free markets to the unelected masses of the world!

Augustus

Even if President Obama has retained Bush's Defence Secretary Robert Gates, and even if he has not reneged on his campaign promise to send extra troops to Afghanistan, all things considered, Obama is a foreign policy weakling who is in the process of emboldening America's enemies and placing the West and its people in greater danger than ever. Terrorists and rogue regimes must be loving an appeasing Obama administration.

phil

Ann what work are you doing for me ?the only thing you do is pour out bile and invective ,talk filth, call everyone who disagrees with you anti-Semites -you have never once in years here said anything constructive -you are right on one matter though I utterly despise your rhetoric ,you do more damage here than the ridiculous carl and the even more stupid georgie the impostor.It would be enormous fun to put the three of you in a room together and see who came out -I,M BETTING ON YOU .First prize ,a bar of carbolic soap to wash your mouth out .

phil

beloved-I agree with your words as you may have seen from my earlier post but we are not going to stop Obama doing his thing ,so I believe we should not be castigating him until he sees for himself that you are right ,but there is also just a chance that he will do some good .We are not achieving much apart from spending a lot of money and killing a lot of people ,many of whom I do not mourn but there are innocents too and that saddens me .Maybe I am coming across as a softie well I promise you I am not and I certainly never was in the playground either ,plenty of noses bled including mine :)---------
I,would hazard a bet the lady mouth of the south never took a swing at anyone ,she, as brave as a bull behind her keyboard and anonymity.:):):)

Carl

Ros Morris: Violence begets violence. Israel is a brutal, vengeful oppressor, you can hardly complain when the victims strike back, however ineffectual it is. What is the current Israeli formula - 100 Palestinians for 1 Israeli? Proof of a vicious, inhumane State.

LaurenceF

Carl. You are a little low in your formula for 100 Palestinians to 1 Israeli.

Whenever Israel wants to get back a kidnapped soldier, it has to release about 500 Palestinians.

Israel clearly values its own dead more than the Palestinians value their own living.

That's why the Israelis put their children in bomb shelters, while the Palestinians put theirs as human shields in their bomb factories.

Proof of a 'vicious inhumane State'? Proof of a warped and twisted mind more like, which cannot see the truth if it were staring him in the face.

phil

carl you are a darling boy .you brighten up any serious posters day and are a credit to the jones family -you are kind and considerate which you demonstrate by befriending both sin and georgie ,what more could we wish for -if you ever run for MP you can count on the "Jewish" vote,and Adam B tells me he has invited you for two weeks free board at his home ,in his shelter of course ,but you can,t have everything . if you need a job the IDF would love to see you,but if you do not fancy the shelter at Adam B,s there is free board and lodging,s available to you and your two mates in Sderot ,courtesy of Elena ,who i am sure would like to "look after you"

Carl

LaurenceF - good try, but it is Israel that kills Palestinian children - you know, the so called army that herds the families into one place and then shells it?

Face the truth, apologists, the world sees Israel for the violent oppressor it is.

An American

Krishnan Nayar,

The reason our Republic...we are not a true democracy, by the way...is failing is because liberals like yourself have been pushing a socialist agenda since FDR became president. We've seen the slow disease of socialism take over our schools and our politics...Now Obama is speeding up the process.

I truly believe there is no hope for the country our brilliant founding fathers created. You can call it anything you want...Democratic Socialism, Nazism, Fascism, Communism...Obamaism...

We have failed our country by allowing people with your socialist political agenda succeed.

B. Matkin,

You say it better than I can.

logdon

It gets worse. Here's a mailing from Arutz Sheva

Obama Appoints Anti-Israel Aide
by David Lev

A flurry of reports over the weekend said that the former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia, considered a sharp critic of Israel, is to be named to a top intelligence post in the administration of U.S. President Barack Obama.

Chas W. Freeman Jr., who was U.S. ambassador in Riyadh from 1989-1992, is set to be named chairman of the National Intelligence Council, which has a strong influence on the content of the intelligence briefings presented to the President (and puts together the National Intelligence Estimate, or NIE, which in 2007 dissuaded the Bush regime from attacking Iran). The Council chairman is also often called on to give direct briefings to the President.

Typical of Freeman's viewpoints is a statement he made in a speech before the Washington Institute of Foreign Affairs in 2007, in which he more or less blames international terrorist acts on Israel: "American identification with Israeli policy has also become total. Those in the region and beyond it who detest Israeli behavior, which is to say almost everyone, now naturally extend their loathing to Americans. This has had the effect of universalizing anti-Americanism, legitimizing radical Islamism, and gaining Iran a foothold among Sunni as well as Shiite Arabs. For its part, Israel no longer even pretends to seek peace with the Palestinians; it strives instead to pacify them. Palestinian retaliation against this policy is as likely to be directed against Israel’s American backers as against Israel itself. Under the circumstances, such retaliation – whatever form it takes – will have the support or at least the sympathy of most people in the region and many outside it. This makes the long-term escalation of terrorism against the United States a certainty, not a matter of conjecture."

Freeman also is a strong advocate of talking to Hamas, which he says "is the only democratically-elected government in the Arab world." In his speech, Freeman said that "Hamas is showing that if we offer it nothing but unreasoning hostility and condemnation, it will only stiffen its position and seek allies among our enemies. In both cases, we forfeit our influence for no gain."

Freeman says that Israel must be pressured to accept the American point of view, which does not coincide with its own. "We must talk with all parties, whatever we think of them or their means of struggle. Refusal to reason with those whose actions threaten injury to oneself, one's friends, and one's interests is foolish, feckless, and self-defeating. That is why it is past time for an active and honest discussion with both Israel and the government Palestinians have elected, which – in an irony that escapes few abroad – is the only democratically-elected government in the Arab world."

In another speech Freeman said: "We destroyed the Iraqi state and catalyzed anarchy, sectarian violence, terrorism, and civil war in that country... Meanwhile, we embraced Israel’s enemies as our own; they responded by equating Americans with Israelis as their enemies. We abandoned the role of Middle East peacemaker to back Israel’s efforts to pacify its captive and increasingly ghettoized Arab populations. We wring our hands while sitting on them as the Jewish state continues to seize ever more Arab land for its colonists. This has convinced most Palestinians that Israel cannot be appeased and is persuading increasing numbers of them that a two-state solution is infeasible. It threatens Israelis with an unwelcome choice between a democratic society and a Jewish identity for their state. Now the United States has brought the Palestinian experience – of humiliation, dislocation, and death – to millions more in Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel and the United States each have our reasons for what we are doing, but no amount of public diplomacy can persuade the victims of our policies that their suffering is justified, or spin away their anger, or assuage their desire for reprisal and revenge.”

Krishnan Nayar

AN AMERICAN:

You are right that America has been going to the socialist dogs ever since the first ape-men made the horribly decadent socialist mistake of climbing down from the trees. Before that we were in a free-enterprise paradise.

If it weren't for the frightening material losses of the crash of capitalism, I would be laughing my head off.

Socialism is being brought about - by the capitalists ! Not by fire-breathing communist fanatics and demagogues of the Guevara-Mao type, but by true-blue conservative dumbos sprung from blue-rinsed matrons like Dubya Bush......Simply to bail out the capitalist economy which has screwed up spectaularly.

As Ken Galbraith knew, capitalists are their own worst enemies, and free enterprise destroys capitalism.

I like it this way. A socialism brought in by people who loathe it more likely to work than one brought in by red fanatics.

Long Live the Socialist Republic of America !!!!!

Adam B.

Carl, you shamelessly applaud the anti-Semitic Hamas and Hizbollah organizations - organizations which are quite open about their desire to commit genocide against every Jew on earth.

You refuse to condemn the Hamas charter, which declares its genocidal goal.

You visit a blog which is supportive of Israel, solely to express your admiration for Jew hating terrorists, and your hatred of the Jewish state - alone in the world.

What does this say about your attitude towards Jews?

Here - I'll say it out loud - you're an anti-Semite.

I use the word advisedly - you aren't simply a critic of the Israeli government, you praise anti-Semitic genocidal organizations. There comes a point when a red line is crossed - and you have crossed it.

You're a Jew hater carl.

Krishnan Nayar

AN AMERICAN:

So you are "beside yourself" gecause your ideas are failing and mine are succeeding?

Good.

That's the way life should go, baby. Don't worry ! Be happy !!!

Heh heh heh !!!!

History sure likes to have a trick or two up her sleeve.

Everyone thought the fall of the Berlin Wall meant the triumph of capitalism.

In reality, it simply meant America was going to go socialist.....

Heh heh heh !!!!!!

Jodie M

Carl, February 22nd, 2009 5:04pm, says: ‘Violence begets violence.’ So why aren’t you complaining about Article 7 of the Hamas Charter, which reads: "O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP109206

Or Hamas MP Yunis Al-Astral:

"Allah has chosen you for Himself and for His religion, so that you will serve as the engine pulling this nation to the phase of succession, security, and consolidation of power, and even to conquests thorough da'wa and military conquests of the capitals of the entire world.

"Very soon, Allah willing, Rome will be conquered, just like Constantinople was, as was prophesised by our Prophet Muhammad. Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam – this capital of theirs will be an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread through Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, and even Eastern Europe.

"I believe that our children or our grandchildren will inherit our jihad and our sacrifices, and Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them. Today, we instil these good tidings in their souls, and by means of the mosques and The Koran books, and the history of our prophets, his companions, and the great leaders, we prepare them for the mission of saving humanity from the hellfire on the brink of which they stand." (Al-Aqsa TV on April 11, 2008)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x_qbKrOF64w

This man is salivating at the thought of turning the world into a Caliphate and you think he’s the ‘oppressed’ party. No, Carl, that is, as you might put it, ‘proof of a vicious, inhumane‘ agenda and what the Israelis have to live next door to.

Or perhaps you’ll tell us how things like that amount to peace? Or are you going to run away again like you did with Amil Imani?

HarlyDavidson

logdon
I wasn't gonna comment on anything today, however, its impossible not to respond to Obama's latest Arab appeasement move. What's new here? Obama is not attending Durban 2 for the optics alone.

Now, America's imperialistic tendency under Obama is to somehow believe Obama is the world's savior is misguided at best and downright stupid at worst. Presupposing that every other nation will worship at Obama's feet is self delusional. And according to the latest Rasmussen poll in the US Obama's post election bump has already disappeared.

Nevertheless, Obama's handpicked minions can say whatever they wish about Israel. The Obama team has already shown themselves to be ill equipped and naive on the world stage. They have been stumbling around like chickens with their heads cuts off with Russia, Pakistan, and India. Clinton is in China begging the Chinese to please buy more American debt, please? Of course at the expense of "human rights" even left wingers are appalled at the stupidity.

What's the worse America's anti-Jew team can do to Israel? Arm and supply the Arabic forces? Right. Ask Russia how that experiment turned out with all the Russian armed and equipped Arabic forces over the years.

Here's the bottom line. Israel is small potatoes. The Palestinian are small potatoes. The BIG monster in the room is the world economies. Police said 100,000 people in Dublin were marching in the streets over the economy. Believe me folks this only the beginning. Those folks were marching in the streets for one thing only, the right to earn a living. This will hit every nation. It's gonna get a whole lot worse in the next two years before we begin to see some hope.

This economy IS the challenge of our time. Everything else will be a distant second despite the rhetoric you may read from time to time.

stanley Jerusalem

Quote from Mark Steyn in National Review today:-
"Meanwhile, President Obama has removed Winston Churchill's bust from the Oval Office and returned it to the British. Given what Sir Winston had to say about Islam in his book on the Sudanese campaign, the bust will almost certainly be arrested at Heathrow and deported as a threat to public order."

Ann

"Ann what work are you doing for me"

No idea what you are babbling about, phil - not that this is anything new.

"the only thing you do is pour out bile and invective ,talk filth, call everyone who disagrees with you anti-Semites"

More drivel and lies. Can you EVER stop lying? I disagree with you most of the time, but have never called you an antisemite. This filth comes from you, not me.
I call antisemites 'antisemites'. Sorry if this is a problem for you.

"you have never once in years here said anything constructive"

I haven't even BEEN here for years - do you EVER stop lying?
Anyway, plenty of sane people disagree with your filthy slander above.

"you are right on one matter though I utterly despise your rhetoric ,you do more damage here than the ridiculous carl"

Phil the 'intelligent and rational' - anyone who disagrees with him 'causes damage'. Your hubris is as huge as your mendacity.

Rob-NY

"The vast majority of Americans who staunchly support Israel's struggle to exist...need to become aware of what is being done in their name"

That's me Melanie. I remember while living in London after the 2004 US election a photo book show Americans apologising in tough-in-cheek- fashion to the world for bringing another four years of Bush.
I am sincerely sorry to Israel and Europe for the Obama Administration because I know what will come of it.

Carl

Adam B - you are a hysteric. You can't even use the normal apologist arguments without losing the plot. You must really hate the fact that Israel is at last about to be made to behave.

Mr R

Carl said: "but it is Israel that kills Palestinian children - you know, the so called army that herds the families into one place and then shells it?" What a bizarre accusation Carl! Beyond incomprehensible. Any "proof"? (Where do you get your "facts"??? )

Adam B.

Carl, you are an antisemite, and your motives for visiting this blog are now clear.

Your posts range from saying that you speak for the entire planet (nice to have such a grandiose opinion of oneself) to interjecting various hateful comments, without ever answering points put to you. Nor do you offer any constructive way forward - just hate, hate, hate.

Your motive for being here is yor antisemitism, your hateful obsession with the Jewish state. My motive is something positive - I am a philosemite. I see bullies like you singling out the Jews, alone of all nations, for vitriol and condemnation, whilst whitewashing and indeed applauding anti-Semitic neo-Nazi organizations like Hamas and Hizbollah, who profess their desire to kill all Jews.

Do you condemn the Hamas charter? It's a reasonable question, which you have so far refused to answer.

Well, we're waiting...

Adam B.

Jodie M - well put. Unfortunately, Carl doesn't do facts.

He's truly a sad figure.

LaurenceF

Carl. If you want to know the difference between Israel and Hamas it's this: -

When Israel hits Palestinian children, it's because they have made an error, and they regret it.

When Hamas MISS Israeli children it's because they have made an error and they regret it.

That is what makes Israel moral, and Hamas criminals.

Get it? Thought not.

Potkin Azarmehr

I don't understand why reconciliation with Iran is regarded as a new approach. There seems to be a myth that US has been hard against the mullahs, this is a myth. Even during George Bush, behind the axis of evil statements etc. there was always co-operation between the two.

Carl

look at you Adam B - reduced to foaming at the mouth insults.

LaurenceF - the IDF target civilians, proven beyond any doubt.

Linda Smith

Carl: Adam B has repeatedly asked you: "Do you condemn the Hamas charter? It's a reasonable question, which you have so far refused to answer. Well, we're waiting..."

To which you responded: "look at you Adam B - reduced to foaming at the mouth insults."

Why don't you answer Adam B's perfectly reasonable question, Is it because you support Hamas's Charter which calls for the destruction of the Jewish State of Israel and genocide of worldwide Jewry?

nef601

I was interested to hear the Israeli govt spokesman (Mark Regev) admitting to the use of white phosphorus against Gazan civilians on the Today programme this morning.

What was the justification for that, I wonder?

Laura

Do you all remember less than 12 months ago when - for the first time in political history - it was suggested by the mainstream media that it didn't matter what company a politician kept? Actually, make that just one politician.

That if you spent 20 years with an anti-white racist pastor as your mentor and modelled yourself on him so much that you named one of your books after one of his sermons, that this didn't count for anything? In fact, that you shouldn't ask this politcal candidate any questions at all about his past?

It's odd, really, because here is the USA joining Durban II when, at Durban I, Colin Powell withdrew the US because of the nastiness that was unfolding.

So what's different now from then? Why, there's a man in the White House called Barack Obama, bosom buddy of the Rev Jeremiah Wright. And what did spiteful racist Jeremiah Wright have to say about Colin Powell withdrawing the US from Durban I? Why, 'that Washington had left Durban because "somebody dared to point out the racism" prevalent "both here and in Israel."'

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02182009/postopinion/opedcolumnists/o_empowers_uns_new_israel_bash_155664.htm

So don't forget, folks, just like the mainstream media told us: if you spend 20 years being mentored by a racist scumbag like Jeremiah Wright, it won't have any influence on you at all.

Original Tony

I just thank God my eyes have been opened by the scriptures of the Bible that tell us exactly how this will all turn out and that todays events are unravelling prophecy upon prophecy. It's like watching a re-run on a main news channel that nobody else has seen yet!!
Here's part of the news that few of you realise.
Anti-semitism will rise just as it did in the 1930's, to a fever pitch that exceeds those times. Many Jews will return to Israel because of this (a prophecy fulfilled); the world including Muslim-soft USA/Europe will turn against Israel.
Iran either will, or be about to, attack Israel with a nuke when Israel puts in a first strike, possibly with a Nuke. All countries around Israel will attack Israel. Israel defeats them, mainly with conventional arms but possibly tactical nukes (In the Bible it says Damascus is destroyed, never to be lived in again).
The surviving Arab armies will be joined by Russia to invade Israel.
This army will be destroyed.

Laugh at me if you want, deride what I have to say if you want...but print this post of mine off and stick it on your fridge door to remind you what I have said.
It's all old news to us who have had the scales fall off our eyes.
Personally, I am backing the rider on the white horse!

Augustus

During his campaign Obama pledged to talk to Iran, without conditions, I believe. So what is his actual policy on Iran? He opposed the Bush policy without even bothering to understand it. Now his administration will probably try to prevaricate until Iran's June elections are out of the way in the hope that former President Khatami (a somewhat moderate mullah) will beat Ahmadinejad and be able to offer Obama some acceptable terms. But there are also three UN resolutions imposing sanctions on Iran. Legally, America can't ignore them, politically, it can't stick to them without making Obama's
'unconditional talks' totally meaningless.

beloved

Krishnan,

Get with the Dem Party program. You are supposed to be denying it. Never, EVER mention the "s" word, and you have not yet been approved with a license to gloat. Gloating is reserved for tax cheats, criminals, and other members of Obama's administration. They celebrate that people like you and me fight over ideas while they enrich themselves off the slave labor of the masses.

Oleg Atbashian says it best. "Every time the government tries to organize the economy, the only thing that stays organized is crime."

Oleg is an outspoken proud American, proud capitalist, and former Ukrainian immigrant. He lives and writes today in NY. He wrote a piece for The People's Cube website that he founded. You can also find the article at this website:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/want-hope-and-change-buy-a-goat/

LaurenceF

Carl. "The IDF targets civilians, proven beyond any doubt". Really?

They must be pretty crap shots then, mustn't they? after all they have the most sophisticated weaponry in the world and yet in a three week intensive bombing campaign managed to kill 1,000 people of which between half and two thirds were Hamas fighters.

Considering the Syrians killed 20,000 in one day in 1982 in the town of Hama. Considering the Iraqis killed 7,000 kurds in two days in 1987. Considering Al Qaeda killed 3,000 in the twin towers. Considering Jordan killing thousands of Palestinians in September 1970, if Israel were really targeting civilians, I think it would be the death toll would be a little higher - don't you?

It's amazing that you quote one incident during the three week campaign where Israel shelled, in error, a place where they had tried to take Palestinians to safety, and you use this to 'prove' that they target civilians.

How many times during the war did Israel move Palestinians to safety and NOT bomb them? I guarantee that it was a damn site more than once....

Carl

LaurenceF - so only half of those killed by the IDF were civilians?

Indeed: The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
It droppeth as the gentle white phosphorus onto the bodies of children.

LaurenceF

Carl. Yes only half (and according to some reports a quarter) were civilians. Considering that Hamas routinely places bomb factories in apartment complexes and uses civilian areas as launching pads for their missiles any reasonably impartial observer would say that's a pretty low average. Hamas use human shields - where human shields are used, civilians inevitably die. That is why the use of human shields is a war crime.

Israel sent phone messages, radio transmissions and leaflet drops telling people to clear areas that were going to be targeted. Hamas forced children at gunpoint into these areas.

Hamas fired from school buildings and hid in hospitals. As soon as the fighting stopped they started rebuilding their tunnels to smuggle more arms - and ignored the need to rebuild their own people's lives.

Israel left Gaza nearly four years ago, and Hamas squandered the aid and goodwill of the international community which would have allowed Gaza to be rebuilt, and people to be rehoused, and instead created a massive terrorist infrastructure bent on destroying Israel and killing every Jew within it. The destruction in Gaza could have been avoided, but Hamas wanted it to happen.

Yet again you fail to recognize that Israel puts its children in bomb shelters to protect them. Hamas puts theirs on roofs to 'up' the body count.

Since you are so concerned about targeting civilians please join me in condemning Hamas for sending 6,000 rockets into civilian areas over the last seven years. I am sure that your silence during this time was merely an oversight.

Carl, I hope that you are praying for Israel to win in this, because if they don't, Hamas and their murderous ilk will be coming after the West next, and when their knives are throat you'll be wondering what the hell you've done to deserve it.

George Laird

Dear All

The playground bullies of jenny and phil have teamed up to have a pop at me.

What does that say about them?

Although; I am legally entitled to the right of free speech, there seems to be a campaign to try and silence me.

These two are obviously very sad people.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

phil

George Laird "These two are obviously very sad people" cant speak for Linda love but I can agree as far as I am concerned -sad that buffoons like you come here to waste our time with lies and tosh -does Glasgow University know that you demean them by your claiming to represent them ?why don•t you stick to selling weight lifting equipment ,perhaps even drop some on your keyboard and save us some time ?

Carl

"Israel sent phone messages, radio transmissions and leaflet drops telling people to clear areas that were going to be targeted" which other countries refer to as psychological warfare, another example of Israel's collective punishment of civilians. There is no evidence whatsoever that Hamas moved people into their own homes, they lived in them!

And no, I do not want Israel to "win", whatever that means, I want Israel to return to pre 1967 borders and stop the attacks on and the harassment of Palestinians.

Ann

"I want Israel to return to pre 1967 borders "

There is no such thing, you sad ignoramus. There was an armistice line. It died the day that Jordan launched a war against Israel.

Ann

"I am legally entitled to the right of free speech, there seems to be a campaign to try and silence me."

Aww ... poor baby ...
Your long and rambling and ignorant posts prove that nobody is silencing you.

Moderator: perhaps you could stop silencing me, and censoring my posts that reference Laird.

Ann

"Israel sent phone messages, radio transmissions and leaflet drops telling people to clear areas that were going to be targeted"

- which other countries refer to as psychological warfare, another example of Israel's collective punishment of civilians,

(acc. to Carl).

He really really doesn't like Jews, does he?

Carl

Ann - please try and keep up. It is no use trying to claim that all critics of Israel are anti semitic. It is a tired old cliché, used by the lazy.

Why do you think we leafleted the Iraqi Army in '91?

George Laird

Dear Phil

I feel that I have to add some justification to my comment that you are a very sad person.

Luckily for me; you have provided the material.

Although I support your right to be snide; I would ask you stop telling lies about me publicly.

I do not sell weight lifting equipment, you repeating this lie shows you up for what you are.

Not very bright!

Tell the truth in future, thank you in advance for your co-operation.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

LaurenceF

Ann - I think that to say he doesn't like Jews is a bit of an understatement.

Israel, damned if they tell people to leave to avoid bombing, damned if they don't.

Adam B.

Carl, answer the question - do you condemn the Hamas charter, which calls for the extermination of the Jews?

George Laird, if you want to know what silencing critics means, look at how Hamas shoots its detractors in their hospital beds - that's silencing critics, not writing a comment in a blog.

Sums up your sense of perspective, or lack of it.

Why is it that many of those who pretend to be campaigners for human rights endlessly and obsessively focus on the one country in the Middle East that respects human rights the most? Could it be because that one country is the only Jewish one?

Herbert Thornton

When I read that America has been turned into a grinning Goliath staggering about sporting a ‘kick me’ sign on his back "with Russia, Iran and Pakistan duly obliging in quick succession" I can't help questioning the inclusion of Russia in the breath as Iran and Pakistan.

I should have thought that in the current Great War between Islam and civilisation Russia was in a quite different category from the other two.

Have not centuries of experience given Russia a far better grasp of the nature of Islam and its backward and murderous ambitions than is yet appreciated in the naive west?

phil

George Laird -georgie our problem is that one of us does not understand the word truth ,and if we took a vote on it here you would win hands down ! now "listen" my little love ,when I ask you a question I expect an answer ,so tell us all what the university have to say about your use of their name .If you have any legitimate questions for me I will answer them -ok?-whether or not you think I am bright will not impress anyone other than yourself , but you can be sure of one thing ,I have more letters after my name than you have ,and I am sure the posters here will take my word before yours .so keep your comments to the 15 minute mark at most because you are wasting scant resources of the Amazon rain forest with your gibberish .

Adam B.

Except in your case carl - you really are an antisemite.

Jenny

Oh, George Laird, you big crybaby. What is this? "Dear All, The playground bullies of jenny and phil have teamed up to have a pop at me.
"What does that say about them?
Although; I am legally entitled to the right of free speech, there seems to be a campaign to try and silence me."

Dry your tears, Georgie Boy, and we'll go through what I said once more. Far from trying to silence you, I simply asked you and the ghastly Carl to explain to us all why Amil Imani's assessment of Iran's ambitions is wrong.

Carl is still too busy sobbing to reply to that point (and many of the other points put to him on this thread) but you've opted to sob that you've been 'bullied' by me or that I'm trying to 'silence' you.

Not a bit of it. I've not asked you to be quiet at all. I just want you to answer Amil Imani's assessment. So I don't want silence at all George, I just want answers.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/02/chaos_crisis_and_terror_serves.html

LaurenceF

Carl, we leafleted the Iraqi army in 1991 to advise them not to fight.

Israel leafleted the Palestinian civilians to advise them that there would be fighting in their area and that they should leave the area.

Sending leaflets to an Army is designed to weaken morale and is psy-ops, advising civilians to leave an area for their safety is a humanitarian action.

Tell me Carl, (or avoid it - like you do every other question) should Israel have not sent the leaflets etc and bombed anyway? When avoiding to answer the question, please remember that 'not bombing' is not an option - Israel had to try and stop Hamas from firing missiles into Israeli population centers.

So, based on the fact that Israel needed to defend itself from Hamas missiles, AND that Hamas had placed its infrastructure within population centers, should Israel have advised civilians to leave before attempting to destroy Hamas' bomb making facilities or should they have not sent them?

Simple question.

While you're at it, here's another question for you to avoid, yet again.

How do you describe Hamas's random firing of missiles into Israel in the period since Israel's evacuation of Gaza in 2005, if you don't describe it as targeting civilians?

Carl

We Laurence? Were you there? Israel basically indulged itself in Psyops against the Gazans, another foul act by a foul regime.

The Hamas missiles are utterly ineffectual, no matter how often some Israeli momma pipes up to say her children can't sleep - the Palestinian children can - killed by missiles and artillery fired by the IDF. There is no proportionality.

George Laird

Dear phil

“George Laird -georgie our problem is that one of us does not understand the word truth ,and if we took a vote on it here you would win hands down !”

Finally, an admission that you and the truth are strangers! Did you mean to write that sentence or was it poor English on your part?

“now "listen" my little love ,when I ask you a question I expect an answer”.

Freedom of speech entitles you to ask the question, not to get a reply.

“so tell us all what the university have to say about your use of their name”.

Why don’t you ask them if you are so keen to find out? They run a media/ PR department.

“If you have any legitimate questions for me I will answer them -ok?”
Okay, why did you lie that I sell weight lifting equipment?

“whether or not you think I am bright will not impress anyone other than yourself”.

You are not bright to repeatedly publish lies shows a weak mind.

“but you can be sure of one thing ,I have more letters after my name than you have ,and I am sure the posters here will take my word before yours”.

Really; I am supposed to be impressed?

“so keep your comments to the 15 minute mark at most because you are wasting scant resources of the Amazon rain forest with your gibberish”.

Since we are writing electronically, no trees from the Amazon or anywhere else are involved. If you were bright, you would have realised that your statement was nonsense.

I can only assume that the rest of the board will judge you on your merits and come to the same conclusion as me that there is something lacking.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Carl

Adam B - why would I be concerned about your opinion, that of a person that does not consider Arabs as human?

Nancy Baumgartner

America was great while it lasted. We now reward and appease horrendous behavior and choices on both the national and international stages. If my lifetime career as a social worker has taught me anything, it is that we will get more of what is subsidized and appeased. The gibbering boobs who support Obama will eventually have to face what they've been mindlessly cheering for, and maybe we can even talk about it while waiting on the culturally diverse and ethnic-sensitive bread lines coming our way.

Adam B.

Carl, that's really pathetic, I do not think such a thing, and never have. You squirm around trying to avoid my question - why not answer it?

Do you think Jews are human - being the antisemite that you are?

When?

Adam B.

George laird, how pompous can an individual be to bestow a "title" on oneself and sign one's name on every post?

We know who you are.

Am I meant to be impressed?

beloved

Nancy,

You are a social worker complaining about socialism?

Hey you anti-Americans out there!!! Even our social workers hate socialism in America!

Obama are you listening?

We're a nation of Santellis.

Nancy you give me hope for my great-grand babies.

See you in the ethnically diverse breadline under the new transparent administration. I'll be the one waving and smiling at you with no teeth.

LaurenceF

Carl. Number one, I used the term "we" because you used the term too....why - were you there?? If so, and psy-ops was good enough for 'you' to use, why is it 'foul' for the Israelis to do so?

Number two, another question for you to add to the ones which you have not answered.

Which is more morally repugnant, someone who tries to murder civilians but through 'bad luck' misses them, or someone who tries to avoid civilian casualties although unfortunately hits some anyway?

So. Here are the questions Carl refuses to answer.

1) Does he reject Hamas's charter which calls for the annihilation of Israel?

2) Does he believe that Israel should warn civilians who live in the vicinity of Hamas's terror infrastructure?

3) How does he classify Hamas's missiles targeted at Israeli population centers? Why are these excusable?

4) What would he consider a proportionate response to 7,000 missiles being launched into Israeli territory?

5) Is Hamas wrong to bring it's women and children into the line of fire?

6) Is Hamas wrong to build bomb factories in civilian areas, to fire missiles from schools and hide in hospitals?

7) and here's the big one Carl. If they are being faced by missiles being sent by Hamas, do Jews have the right to self defense?

By the way, Carl, your reference to 'Jewish Momma's' really shows that it's the Jews you don't like. Keep it up, your anti-semitic colours are really starting to show through....

phil

-George Laird .georgie boy I can award you 3 merit marks today for cutting and pasting and an extra 1 for adding a little amusement to this otherwise serious thread -2 demerits for not answering simple questions and another 2 for not understanding plain English -why do I bother ,who knows ? you are compulsive and very funny and mostly I am too serious -makes a change .Can I ask a small favour from you ,can you , try just once to make a sensible post on subject,these threads are for grown ups -btw can I ask you if you are the person who regularly has his comments removed on Scottish newspapers for being unsuitable? or am I doing you a disservice ?I did in fact ring the university as you suggested ,sorry to tell you georgie nobody knows you ! so could you be persuaded to give your self a different title such as "georgie representing nobody else"

Donald

Carl ... You note that "Israel is the most likely country to use Nuclear weapons in a first strike. It cannot be trusted to have them".
What's the basis for that observation? Is there some metric that you're using to assess varying propensities for nuclear first strikes? Or is your conclusion based on your dislike of Israel?

An American

Nancy,

Great blog...what we all really need to do is 'get mad and not take it anymore'...

My hope is that reasonable Americans won't take this lying down and will fight hard against Obama and his socialist agenda.

Sorry, I won't be joining you and beloved in the bread line...I'll be the one protesting and most likely end up in one of the Messiah's jails for non-believers to be re-educated on how to become a drone commie.

Carl

Laurence yes, and we were facing the Iraqi army, not their wives and children. You seized on the "Jewish Moomas" comment as if it were a rather tasty morsel. Perhaps I should change it to Sderot mums who complain that their children can't sleep as opposed to the Gaza parents who were prevented from recovering their children's' bodies by the IDF? Fair enough? Now go to the back of the class with Adam the Arab hater.

kindness

Melanie,

Your value as a person with something insightful to say went down as soon as you used Charles Krauthammer as a reference. Think before you write next time.

An American

kindness,
Need to change your name to mindless.

peter

Iran must have the nuclear bomb. It is the only way to contain regional rogue states like Israel.

Adam B.

Carl, answer the question.

Adam B.

Laurence, I note that our charming antisemitic friend is unable to answer your question as well.

Adam B.

peter, glad to see that you support a state which buries women up to their waists so that they can be stoned to death by a mob of men, and hangs children and gay people in public.

How utterly depraved and shameful.

Carl

Adam the Arab hater - as I think I have made clear, I see no need to answer questions from somebody like you.

Perhaps if you condemn the Israeli atrocities, I may reconsider.

Adam B.

Carl, what a sad, pathetic attempt to portray me as being anti-Arab, to deflect away from the issue of your anti-semitism, which you have never denied.

I am not anti-Arab. I have never written anything on this blog to suggest that I am. Provide one single example. Go on.

You, on the other hand, have heaped praise on openly antisemitic terror organizations such as Hamas and Hizbollah, whilst indulging in antisemitic fantasies. You have repeatedly refused to condemn the Hamas charter, which calls for the extermination of every living Jew on earth.

Why is that Carl?

You offer nothing constructive, no way forward, just hatred and lies about the Jewish state.

You visit this blog, not because you find Melanie's articles interesting, nor for debate or an exchange of ideas. You visit to lie about the Jews, and spread your vicious hate. You never answer any points put to you, you just snipe from the sidelines.

Get a life carl - and stop blaming it all on the Jews.

beloved

An American
February 24th, 2009 6:31pm
kindness,
Need to change your name to mindless.

beloved: hahahahahahaaaa!!! An American my side is splitting. Did you join any Tea Parties, yet? Michelle Malkin has a few links for us.

Mitchell

Yeah, talking to your enemies strengthens them. That's why strong Republicans like Ronald Reagan and Dwight Eisenhower never talked to leaders of the Soviet Union, and Richard Nixon never talked to the leaders of China, right? Right?

Oh wait, there's a bipartisan history of talking with unsavory folks? Oh no, I guess I'm smarter than this columnist because I figured it out.

Mitchell

Oh, the Soviet Union killed millions of its own people (remember the purges) and helped the Viet Cong against us in Vietnam. So don't say the Soviet Union isn't as evil as Hamas. The USSR was WORSE than Hamas, and yet Reagan and Eisenhower still talked to them. There's no harm in talking with enemies, and that's all Obama has begun to do so far.

Carl

Adam, I notice that you steadfastly refuse to condemn the death of innocent Palestinians at the hands of the Israelis - this is an example of your anti Arab feelings.

You know that the Israeli atrocities are inexcusable, but you cannot condemn them. Why is that?

Ganpat Ram

MITCHELL:

Relax.

A far worse enemy of America than Hamas is the US capitalist system, which is so catastrophically collapsing that it is creating socialism in America.

Welcome to the USSA: United Socialist States of America.

peter

Adam B. Glad to see you support a state that invades its neighbours and slaughters its civilians and children with no remorse or apology.

How utterly depraved and shameful.

phil

Adam I know you believe the idiots must be answered but this one (carl)is being fed like a shark with a feeding frenzy -starve him and he will go away .his comments are of no value ,just lies and we all know that -I humiliate him and at least that is fun ,but please don't argue with him .you are too good a person to waste your time on him .peter is just as stupid and even condemns himself by his own words at 10.43 he just needs reminding of the bombers who target women and children all over Israel ,but really who cares what he thinks ?,if in fact he does think

An American

beloved,
Thanks for the chuckle...If we couldn't laugh at these tragic times, we would go mad.

No, I haven't signed up for a tea party yet..will look into Malkins. I have been signing other protests, etc. though.

Do you check Ramirez's political cartoons?...it's amazing how humor/art can express what is happening more closely than even words.

Carl

Phil so you "humiliate" me. Please excuse me for missing where and when you did that.

An American

Ganpat Rahm,

You sound like you are really happy that capitalism is on its way out to be replaced with Obama's socialism...

Yes, we all dream of the day that we can all live in the poor, drab, depressing, mind controlling, stifling world of socialism.

Except, of course, for people like Obama and his socialist cronies...their world will be full of control and wealth.

phil

Carl:well you asked me !! --when the sun rises and sets .from sunrise to sundown -if you can read you are being humiliated even by your own hatefilled words -you are seen here as a bufoon and are too ignorant to even notice it -will that do ?

phil

George Laird I wrote-"Can I ask a small favour from you ,can you , try just once to make a sensible post on subject"
You have just written a sensitive and kindly post to David Cameron(on condolences) and I would like to say well done ,without me sounding patronising,after all the stick you have taken here it is nice to see there is another side to you and I hope we will see more of it .I salute what you did .

phil

An American we have exchanged posts for ages now and I am still confused by some of your comments,like those to Ganpat Ram

-My perception of you is a thoughtful lady who is obviously a Republican and one with a social conscience ,so why do you object to sharing our good fortune with those who are worse off -neither of us is a "socialist" but I believe in charity and kindness to those that genuinely need it

.We do not have to be seen as living in a communist world by helping people who need health care and cannot afford it ,nor when paying social security to those who have fallen unreservedly on hard times .I despise the benefit cheats as much as you do and you know I am a conservative by nature ,so I wish you would say what exactly you object to in Obamas help for the needy-You have made it clear many times that you are really worried about the future of America and I do not know why, we have had Democrats before and we are still here and they cannot be blamed for the current downturn - I am truly baffled .
btw to clarify -I believe in the capitalist system and that those most able will rise to the top but that will bestow upon them a moral duty to help those less able and less well off.

phil

An American-I need a secretary -unreservedly should have read undeservedly-apologies

Adam B.

Well done peter - the only difference being that my criticism is true, and yours is a pack of lies.

Carl

So Phil, you accept that you are unable to defend the atrocities, the child killing that the IDF are responsible for and you expect me to be humiliated?

I am proud to speak up for the families that have had relatives slaughtered, children maimed and homes destroyed by the vengeful Israeli war machine.

phil

Carl are you delirious now where was I asked to accept anything ?I wouldnt accept anything from you any way carl you tell lies ,like the sheep on the welsh mountains .

An American

Phil,
The left has been extremely sucessful in demonizing Capitalism.

Under Capitalism, the US had the funds to be the Most generous country on earth. Capitalism was generous to all fellow humans worldwide.

Unlike what Socialists believe, Capitalism promotes wealth and the health for all people. It trickles down. It provides good paying jobs and in the process happy people with good lives.

Obama said in one of his speeches that under him...wealth would start at the bottom...of course, we know, that nothing trickles up...

Obama and his henchmen are in the process of strangeling our golden goose...when it's dead, our economy will be dead...on the dole... waiting for handouts from Obama's goverment.

That's what he wants...Complete Control.

Let me finish by saying that Capitalism isn't perfect...but it's a hell of a lot better than anything socialism has in store for us.

BTW, you are right about Carl. Stop feeding the shark and he'll swim of into other waters looking for prey.

Conservative Cabbie

An American

A great defence of capitalism. Thankyou.

Yehuda

Carl, Peter and other haters:
the fact that Arab rockets are still landing on Israeli territory every day proves that Israel did not use sufficient force in its recent operation.

Israel's Prime Minister had given the Gazan Arabs a promise of what would happen if they persisted in their aggression. Their leaders and civilian collaborators chose to persist, then hid in bunkers.

Israel kept its promise but did not complete the task of neutralising Hamas.

Next time Israel will need to use the quantum of force that is necessary to stop the aggression.
Those who pretend that Israel is the problem should be ignored or combated.

Moreover, if the Arabs don't make peace, Israel would be well advised to recover all the territory that has been illegally seized and occupied by Arab settlements, both in the south and east.

Adam B.

Because Carl Israel never deliberately targets civilians, and goes to great lengths to avoid them. Hamas not only deliberately targets civilians, its members celebrate when innocents are killed.

That's the difference Carl.

Ronnie

An American, in the interests of clarity, what are your views on the thinking and activities of the 'Chicago School', led by Professor Milton Friedman, in the second half of the 20th century? In particular I refer to their work in Latin America and, as an example, more particularly, Chile.

phil

An American-thanks for the reply

beloved

Milton Friedman? My hero :) I score closest to him on a political test that plots economic systems and their famous heroes on a square in relation to freedom. Not many Americans score close to Keynes and Lenin in the totalitarian region where "moderates" usually end up through their sympathy with other geese.

Putin would score close to Friedman based on Putin's recent advice to O.

PBS uploaded a documentary, "Commanding Heights" that includes Friedman, The Chicago School and Chile, and also Nixon's famous line, "we are all Keynesians, now. Muahahahahahaaaa!" He obviously forgot that Jesus died for our freedom and paid for the sins of totalitarian governments. Jesus was the first flag waving, middle class American taxpayer ;)

O and the Dems will prosper if they listen to Jesus, Putin, and an American.

Carl

Adam B - you are beyond parody. It is well known that the IDF does deliberately target civilians. There are countless examples ranging from families picnicking on the each, through farmers tending their land, not to forget journalists and peace activists. Senior IDF Officers dare not leave Israel and travel to Europe as they know that they will be arrested and called to account for their crimes.

Adam B.

"It is well known" Carl?

Your problem is that you confuse the fact that civilians are killed with "deliberately targeted." The beach example you quote is an interesting point is question. Human Rights Watch backed down from its initial, uninvestigated claims, and admitted that it was likely to have been caused by explosives stored by Palestinian terrorists. But hey, don't let that stop you in your antisemitic witch hunt.

Adam B.

One othet thing, carl claims to be concerned about civilians being targeted. Palestinian terrorists have for years gone out of their way to target Israeli civilians, yet not only does Carl not criticize them, he praises these terrorists and admires them.

That's called hypocrisy Carl.

Adam B.

Carl, "well known"? You confuse civilians being killed (inevitable when they are used as human shields by Hamas and Hizbollah) with deliberate targeting. The beach case is a point in question; Human Rights Watch backded down from their initial claim that the fire had come from an Israeli ship, and, when presented with evidence, acknowledged that the explosion could well have come from explosives hidded on the beach by Hamas.

Israel makes every effort to avoid civilian casualties, and places its own people at risk in attempts to avoid harming civilians (they could just bomb everything from the air if they didn't care - which is clearly not the case).

Ronnie

Thank you beloved, for your wonderful answer.

An American

Ronnie,

I'm on shaky ground when I talk economics.

I do subscribe to Friedman's free market economics and am opposed to Obama's and the liberal left's Keynesian approach...That's not to say that some on Wall Street and many of the banks will ever deserve our trust...but remember, that most of the banks did not want the bailout money and were forced to take it...another of Bush's money czar's mistakes.

My question to you is why does Obama continue to want to bail some of the banks and auto industry out by the billions? They ARE coming back for more.

Why not let them fail...be forced to go into bankruptcy and reorganize. Could it be because Obama wants to have control of them?

I believe that Obama's trillions in spending will be disasterous for our children and grandchildren's future.

The main point to understand is that Obama is taking advantage of a downturn in our economy to turn the US into his long-planned United Socialist States of America...actually very close to Fascism...where the government is a partner in big business, banks, etc. and in the process starts telling them how to run their businesses.

None of these lawyer-politicians have ever held a job in industry and know squat about how to run a business, bank or actually anything...look at this train-wreck they are creating as I write this. Most of them have never even had a real job in the real world. Obama certainly hasn't.

Chile was the only country in South America doing well economically and I believe that had a lot to do with their low federal personal taxes and low business taxes.

With the downturn of the world market and their main money-maker...copper and a drought, they are now in the midst of an economic crisis.

I think I know where you are going with this. Chile is doing what Obama is and spending billions to try to stimulate their market. But apparently, they are now having inflation...which of course goes hand in hand with what Obama is forcing on us.

But, there is one difference, Chile lowered their taxes on small businesses, while Obama just raised them. I don't believe that Chile raised taxes on their citizens, Obama just did...on the so-called rich, 80% of which are small businesses.

Chile will survive, I don't believe our economy will, unless we get rid of Obama and the liberals and their destructive economic policies by the next election.

It will easier for Chile to keep track of their billions dollar stimulus than the US's trillions. I believe that huge amounts of the so-called stimulus money will just disappear down dark holes...fraud and outright theft will be everywhere.

This spendulus will be a disaster, but I believe that is what Obama wants...a disabled America...all the easier to take over and make over.

phil

An American ,may I run you through a few facts on the economy issue -If we allow so many business,s to fail they will take with them not only the entrepreneurs (who employ people)who may never come again ,but they will ensure huge social security payments from an economy that will receive far less taxes ,in essence we may fall into a hole from which we may not recover -if you let your major employers go to the wall ,you will lose all the plants that go with them to rust and vandalism -surely it is better to aid the economy now and keep employment going -later when we have recovered we will have to pay higher taxes to repay the government debt but at least we will have survived and we will be making profit-,families will be and fed mortgages paid .The other way is a non starter and like it or not Obama has seen it as others must . It is time to take off the blinkers regarding your president at least for the time being .he is your only hope !

An American

Phil,

I believe in the free market...there should be no safety net if you screw up...certainly on the tax payers dime.

And the auto industries have screwed up big time. They have allowed union demands to destroy them and self-destruct. When you can't make a profit, you can't survive...its as simple as that.

Bankruptsy doesn't have to be the end of a company...it can be a new beginning. When a company is failing because of mismanagement or union interference, it's time to reorganize and/or move your company to a state that unions don't own.

Only a few banks are failing, yet they were all forced to take the bailout. Let the mismanaged banks either fail or reorganize. There will still be banks that will survive.

We can't continue to stuff billions down AIG, Citi, General Motors, etc. rat holes.

These companys are hemoraging billions monthly and there is no saving them.

It all comes down to the fittest surviving...in nature or industry.

If Obama is our only hope...we are in deep s..t.

phil

An American-You know I have sympathy with your feeling for O ,but your answer does not address my points -your economy may well go down the drain if you allow so many to go to the wall -no taxes no government income and loads of social security -Those that talk frugal need to understand what deflation is -If we do not spend there will be no market and it does not take long before expenses(which do not stop)wipe out any firm ---------you quote "These company's are hemoraging billions monthly and there is no saving them.It all comes down to the fittest surviving...in nature or industry"-

That I believe shows you what I am talking about,although better management would do no harm either -Your compatriots are neither earning nor spending and they are not buying ,therefore the companies have neither cash flow nor profits -this is not rocket science -Your president is trying to address this enormous problem ,so I am not suggesting you need to love him ,only to help him -Churchill won the war for us and was rewarded with the sack ,you will have your chance in four years ,but maybe you will love him by then :)

An American

Phil,

You can't save every company that is in trouble. My point is that many companys will survive this downturn.
I don't like to think of Americans out of work either...but some of these companys like AIG, etc. are coming back for more billions...what I'm saying is Dr.s can't save every patient, and wouldn't keep working on a patient that they knew couldn't make it, no matter how many blood transfusions...they know when to let go...Some of these companys cannot save themselves, nor should we.

I'm not an economist, but I do have common sense and realize that a good stimulus plan would have helped but the stimulus bill that Obama and his cronies pushed down our throats was a colossal joke.

If Obama's stimulus plan had been a reasonable one instead of a liberal 'wish list'. If he had taken that trillion dollars and poured it into an economy that would provide jobs instead of all of that 'porkus' intended on growing his 'personal' power base socialist government that he signed off on, I would be supporting him right now. But he and the liberal Congress have put our children's future trillion tax monies into 'pork', toys, their liberal friends and supporters pockets, etc...it is a national disgrace and IT WILL NOT WORK!

I, along with hundreds of millioms Americans will never forgive them, ever...they had their big chance, and it turned out to be a royal joke on the American people as they continue their spending orgy.

Please...please stop defending Obama. He cares more about his socialist agenda than he does my country. He hates America and Americans and wants to destroy it...

My friend, I won't continue to argue with you on Obama...if you persist in defending him, I won't take the time to respond.

I'm off for vacation and will try to forget where my beautiful country is heading..,.at least for a week.

beloved,
Just curious, what is your take on the stimulus plan as passed and our economy's future.

Ronnie, I took the time to answer your question on the US and Chile economies ...curious to see what you think.

phil

An American I am not in the business of defending O -I am giving you facts and from a solid basis not from political leanings -I do not care who is your president but I do care how it affects the rest of our world ,and this world needs a stimulated economy ,we do not have the luxury of seeing the weak go down ,they employ too many people ,provide food and pay mortgages . I know they need help in management too ,but your idea of letting them all go is I am sorry not making economic sense ,it is mere rhetoric that has been pushed down your throat ----------------

Why do I insist on this ,because I have been there before ,and I cannot accept the financial advice from whoever is pushing it at you -They are making dangerous assertions with what seems very little understanding of economics .This is a very bad place for us all to be and until confidence returns it will remain so ,those that knock the efforts of experienced and educated economists are doing us all a great disservice .We have seen far too much sensationalism on TV programmes who I believe in many cases do it to sell themselves ,they are sticking daggers through our hearts---------

You need to remember well the words of a great Democrat FDR who no doubt you will know said- " THE ONLY THING WE HAVE TO FEAR IS FEAR ITSELF " Those that talk down the USA in this present plight should be ashamed of themselves ,they have taken everything from the good times and it is time for them to show some patriotism by working collectively to emerge better and stronger than ever as we will have to do here .Strong words ?-yes and they are needed.

I hope you will enjoy your holiday and think about what I have said because these words are coming from a friend who cares as much as you .

beloved

beloved,
Just curious, what is your take on the stimulus plan as passed and our economy's future.

An American,

The stimulus is the best hope for Conservatives and the Republican Party to regain power. It is the worst thing that has ever happened to our nation, however. It is worse than Pearl Harbor. It is equal to 9/11.

O has overreached by giving Pelosi and the Dems full power to write the bill without any input from Republicans.

Until this happened, I did not believe we had a chance of booting the socialists from power in 2010 and 2012. Now, I have hope for a one-term Obama. Americans are uniting in opposition to federal spending and in sympathy with each other and our great-great grandchildren.

Needless to say, I oppose the Porkulus and the creation of new agencies, czars, and the expansion of federal power over independent states. I especially oppose overturning twenty plus years of bi-partisan welfare reform that R. Reagan began and B. Clinton completed.

I oppose the Feds take over of the private market and forcing American citizens to leave the marketplace. I oppose nationalized health care that was hidden in the stimulus, and of which we were denied a chance to publically debate. I oppose the federal take over of banks along with every other private citizen in America.

I oppose the process of the stimulus and how Pelosi & co handwrote the largest expansion of any government in the history of the world into the margins of the original stimulus at midnight in a secret meeting attended by a select few elite Democrats. Every detail of how this came about is an insult to every American and perhaps every human being.

About the economy's future? Free markets, as you know, have natural ups and downs even without government interference and their unintended consequences. Just when our economy starts to bounce back through natural energy and high spirits of private citizens, this stimulus guarantees high inflation will knock them back down. Private citizens are in a war against their government for survival. Only the winner will survive. The stimulus reduces production, increases unemployment, and takes a death punch at investments and GNP. Small businesses are doomed until they go underground.

The poor ultimately suffer the most in any socialist economy, and those who would help them will not have wealth to do it. It's already started.

I'm thinking we'll soon have a late seventies economy that could morph into a great depression IF Obama and company keep on the glorious march to Communism in the New Worker's State.

I think O is purposely destroying our country and he is our number one enemy--a Manchurian Candidate. There is no other logical explanation because the Dem leaders and Obama understand Economics 101 and supply and demand.

Therefore, our patriotic and God given duty is to oppose the Dems and Obama in every conceivable, but peaceful, way. The most patriotic thing any person could do is refuse to pay taxes and demand to go to the same jail as tax evaders in Obama's administration go to. Despite everything, I have hope. O and our enemies are not bigger and better than we are. They think they are, but they are not. We can't stop them completely, but we are annoying them.

If we fail in the next few elections, it could take at least a hundred years for the socialists to eat through our fat and gnaw on our bones. Collectively speaking, we're rich. We can afford to limp along for a little while, carrying the burden for fulfilling the utopian dreams of the world on our backs. You and I may see an armed counter revolution in our lifetime. But, I don't think those brave patriots will succeed. I really believe our hope is at the ballot box and we should try, hard, until they line us up against the wall. Jesus will give us a crown of life for our efforts.

God bless you :)

Ummmm, oh yeah, enjoy your vacation. The counter-revolution salutes you. We'll wait until you get back...

beloved

phil,

the US congress strapped the car companies with unfunded mandates that put them out of business. Plus, those factories exist in high tax, socialist states that punish businesses and empower unions to put companies out of business. The natural consequence for those states is high unemployment and lost tax revenue when you treat businesses as scum. We are bailing out failed Democratic Party policies, which I oppose.

In the larger picture of the free market, companies who provide poor service, make unwanted products or injure customers should go out of business. People learn from their mistakes and try again. It's life. I've been there and done it more than a few times. I want the freedom to fail again.

An American

beloved,
Wow...thank you for your take on the economy. Do you have a background in economics?

I hope you're right about Obama lasting only 4 years...and some Congressmen/women lasting only two...we might be able to survive if that happens...if not, it will be a very long time, if ever, for our America.

Thank goodness for Americans like you.

phil

beloved I am not looking for a row with people for whom I have respect ,nor with those that live in America and should know more than me BUT when I read continuously the thoughts of AA who hates O with a passion and seems to believe he is the anti CHRIST, I am not dealing (on this subject)with either logic,common sense or knowledge-I continue to hear what you all do not agree with but not with a workable solution ,and I must emphasise that I have given one (right or wrong)----

The American people are intelligent and patriotic and they have spoken loud and clear by electing their leader .,should I really think that the minority are in the right?,can you think that is a sensible conclusion for the rest of the world ?-many on this site will shout YES!! but it is a minority view nevertheless .

I will also emphasise that I write from a background rather different than that of AA by her own admission (yes finance ,economics ,tax etc).You will have read that I believe strongly that fear is a major component of our current ills and the talking down of the administrations plans to save the economy further damages it.I ,like you ,want to see a strong USA ,we need it here in Europe and personally I do not care who you elect ,I am both a conservative and supporter of capitalism with compassion .so there you have it my friend ,my soul is bared :) respect !

phil

beloved I am not looking for a row with people for whom I have respect ,nor with those that live in America and should know more than me BUT when I read continuously the thoughts of AA who hates O with a passion and seems to believe he is the anti CHRIST, I am not dealing (on this subject)with either logic,common sense or knowledge-I continue to hear what you all do not agree with but not with a workable solution ,and I must emphasise that I have given one (right or wrong)----

The American people are intelligent and patriotic and they have spoken loud and clear by electing their leader .,should I really think that the minority are in the right?,can you think that is a sensible conclusion for the rest of the world ?-many on this site will shout YES!! but it is a minority view nevertheless .

I will also emphasise that I write from a background rather different than that of AA by her own admission .You will have read that I believe strongly that fear is a major component of our current ills and the talking down of the administrations plans to save the economy further damages it.I ,like you ,want to see a strong USA ,we need it here in Europe and personally I do not care who you elect ,I am both a conservative and supporter of capitalism with compassion .so there you have it my friend ,my soul is bared

Ronnie

An American and beloved, I asked the question because I was genuinely interested in how you guys see these things and I'm grateful.

You didn't actually answer the question that I asked but it doesn't matter, we moved quickly on to the stimulus for obvious reasons.

In my lifetime I've seen two examples of an 'unregulated' market being created. The first was in Chile, using the ideas of Professor Friedman. However, in order to create the circumstances that he required to prove that he was right, an elected government was overthrown and a military dictatorship was put in its place. Then all competing interests in the economic system were crushed, violently, in favour of Friedman's own set of interests. So, an unregulated 'perfect' market was enforced by the most extreme forces of regulation possible. Furthermore, a great deal of the profits made in the unregulated market were sent to another country and could not therefore be reinvested in Chile, thus creating an imbalance in what had ceased to become a perfect market.

The second example I have seen is the unregulated market created by the Colombian drug cartels over the years. Here the demand for a product, cocaine, has seen the creation of vertically integrated monopolies controlled by men such as Pablo Escobar. Supply meets demand and price is simply regulated by that dynamic. Profits are huge and are reinvested in payments to producers, infrastructure (transport) and 'buying' the appropriate officials in both the producer and consumer countries. Where buying fails, then assassination is used. The only regulation is that this particular market is unregulated.

In both cases, extreme violence and intimidation have been used to ensure that each market remains 'free'. That is to say 'free' in the interests of those who make most profit from them. It is convenient to overlook that fact but not helpful.

I agree with you that throwing good money after bad is not a great idea and I do have doubts about keeping the banks afloat in their current form and bailing out a car industry that has failed for a number of reasons. These include bad management, strange deals with unions and an inability to make cars that people want to buy.

Nonetheless Phil also makes a good point. It is simply that in a market economy like ours, people need to be able to buy things and look after themselves, or there is simply no economy. The saftey net that used to exist, was not actually welfare it was the diversity of activity within the economy. If one sector had problems then other sectors would still be able to function and keep things going. In Britain, certainly, that is no longer the case as the collapse in the financial system cripples our two main sectors of economic activity, the housing market and financial services.

The collapse in credit, in economies that have become dependent on credit at every level, is a catastrophe that we haven't seen before. That's why people genuinely don't really know what to do. The economic model has collapsed and they are lost. That's why left and right solutions don't mean anything any more. Survival is the only thing at the moment.

Anyway, An American, I hope you have a great vacation.

An American

Ronnie,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. It's an enormous problem that no on seems to have a solution to. I can't help but feel that all these politicians-lawyers are just making things much worse.

Perhaps, they need to stand back and let the market sort itself out...but I believe that liberals want to use this financial implosion to advance their socialist agenda.

Unfortunately, this wordwide financial failure may be bringing about a world socialist order...I hope I'm wrong.

I'm off... and hope to forget all our problems, at least for a week.

Phil,
If you didn't continually profess your support for Obama, maybe I wouldn't respond so strongly...after all, it is my country that is being ruined.

beloved

Phil, Ronnie, An American,

I'll return to this thread and reply. I'm very interested in our discussion, but I'm in the middle of a non-internet related task. Real life takes first place sometimes ;) I've read your comments and respect your viewpoints, although I disagree on some of the statements made as though fact...I'll get back to it later except this one thing for Ronnie: There is no such thing as an unregulated economy.

All markets are regulated. Some by the government in socialist countries and others by the people in free countries. Right now, US citizens are struggling against the most powerful government on the face of the earth intent of socializing us within a few short years. They are usurping the people's power to regulate their own private business. It is unconstitutional times a trillion, and I will keep complaining.

For Phil, it is not my job to help government come up with MORE government solutions to rule over me and deny me my freedom. I want them to do NOTHING. The only thing they must do to please me is step out of the way and allow me to solve my own problems (that they created). The funny thing is that they, as Americans, know 'doing nothing' is the answer. I've said it a million times, I'm happiest when Congress is on vacation. I take the chastity belt off the katt and dig up my gold that I bury in the backyard.

I guess I did sorta answer. Later, I'll be more specific and address you each in turn.

Thanks guys. The people of your country and mine will always be good Comrades. Hope your vacation is fun, An American.

Sweetie

George Laird, you are truly deluded. Hamas does not want to talk to Israel, it just wants it removed, as, no doubt do you. In light of this, do you have any more bright ideas>

beloved

Ronnie,

Check out Heritage Foundation at Heritage.org for an essay by the Minister of Finance of Chile.

This is my summary of the essay.

In a country used to government control and people looking to the government to solve personal problems, reformers privatized sections of the economy in the 1970s, and Chile began recovery. A worldwide economic downturn dragged them down in the 1980s and reformers had to move to make those reforms permanent. They succeeded for the most part in keeping the reforms permanent, but they could not overcome the wrong headed idea of punishing the rich and overtaxing them. Despite high taxes on the rich, Chile privatized more sectors of the economy, reduced gov't spending, and opened up free trade with other nations. At the end of the 1980's their GNP had increased, private citizens had almost tripled their savings, and unemployment was down so that they are the envy and model of nations around them.

My thesis taken from the essay is that Chile is the poster child for free enterprise, which is why promoters of state control work so hard to discredit their achievements.

beloved

Phil,

You have been tricked if you think the majority voted for O. Several people groups never vote for religious reasons--no joke--it's a tenant of their religions. A sizable number of conservatives did not vote at all, especially after McCain ran to Washington to support the federal take over of private business during the election 2008. O sold "lower taxes" better than McCain did by a four point lead. That's all. O postured as a conservative to a number of O'voters who are not politically savvy. Now, 59% in a Rasmussen poll of registered voters oppose O's porkulus. I can't bring O's name up anywhere I go in public without two or more people ranting against him. I'm talking about young and old. Even children explain, to whoever will listen, basic economics of free enterprise that they picked up in their short years. Everybody knows the response to the down economy is wrong, but Congress will not listen. I don't blame O for the bad economy, although O was a Senator first. I don't blame Bush, either. Congress passes our laws, and they can ignore the President completely. I wish they would ignore O. Congress ignored Bush when he tried eleven times to get Congress to reform Freddie and Fannie Mae, and when Bush proposed reforming Social Security. Congress ignoring the President is nothing new, and it is Constitutional. I blame eco-terrorists for the bad economy because I believe our enemies attacked the economy. If you will recall, destroying the free market was the goal of 9/11, except we bounced back. Terrorists and Communists plotted and attacked us, again. They did it to help a socialist, O, get elected. The Dems run parallel with our enemies, you see. Now, Obama and the left are merely capitalizing (sorry) on economic troubles to expand personal and Democratic Party control through socialism. In addition, people who died in NY on 9/11 possessed creative brains. It's possible that we would not be suffering as much now if they had not died.

So, I blame terrorists first of all, then socialists in Congress, and the Supreme Court for not declaring bail outs, especially O's Porkulus, unConstitutional. The Supreme Court has the Constitutional power to stop socialism and runaway spending. They declared FDR's New Deal bail outs for businesses unConstitutional even though Congress had passed them. And coincidentally, the businesses were in trouble because of government regulation of banks, which tripped the Great Depression. Lastly, I blame O'voters for being so gullible.

Did I mention the Federal Reserve?

phil

beloved -I have said my piece and have nothing to add -many of you despise O and I am not his cheer leader ,despite what AA might think -I will not change your minds so we will just have to wait and see who is right ,for both our sakes i hope it is me .

beloved

Phil,

I posted a response that never showed up. I said we have already seen enough to know O is not a centrist, but a far left radical ideologue. O has proposed as much spending in two months as the US government has spent since its founding. O has yet to clarify for our trading partners a coherent policy that helps them make decisions, and millions of Americans (including people in my family) have lost their retirement and college savings; yet the US sends a billion of our taxes in support of Hamas, and O devotes White House staff and time to defaming a radio show host. O has a hit-list of people who don't like his policies. If ever there were a president "ruling" from ideology, this one is it.

O imitates the "struggle of contradictions" in the old USSR, where you must starve a few million proles to achieve a perfect state of utopia. Fortunately, so called "moderates" (really, sheeple) among the US media are waking up from a self-induced coma. Somehow they misinterpreted O's campaign promise to confiscate all the wealth of Americans to mean that only the mysteriously identified "rich" from the earth-like planet, Gliese 581c, would have to pay for EVERYTHING in the Universe. Everybody is finding out, DOH! Doh-bama means ME and my great-great-great-great grandchildren will work from sun up to sun down for the Federal Government.

If we are going to discuss merely personalities instead of suicidal policies, a more truthful statement is that Obama despises us. He despises western nations in general if you consider he supports that YOU must pay a global tax (read Western nations) in a Global New Deal (read Marxism). He is doing all in his power to see that you will pay for EVERYTHING in the Universe, too.

I do not see any European sheeple dancing in the streets in celebration of their impending doom, lately. What happened? Their happiness, it seems, comes down to whether 'rednecks' and the 'intellectually backward' like me can survive O and the far left Dem policies long enough to reinstitute the US Constitution as the law of the land. We might succeed in two and four years from now. But, I don't expect sheeple in Europe to ever make the connection between their happiness and my success. They don't know the difference between a redneck, a hillbilly, and a cowboy.

O and Dems know the difference. Anybody who disagrees with O and the Dems is a redneck, hillbilly, and cowboy. They marginalize us and accuse us (the Silent Majority) of personally disliking O and being closed minded, which shows up in your most recent comment and declaration that it is useless to talk with us. Here we discover another contradiction of the struggle.

Liberals want to engage the enemy in talks, but they marginalize those who disagree with them.

Liberals marginalize those who disagree with them as shortsighted and regional, but they claim to represent the little guys.

Liberals claim to be the representatives of the little guys, but Liberals silence their voices.

Liberals silence our voices, yet the world thinks they know who we are.

I learned this form of joking from a Ukrainian immigrant. It is modeled on the jokes the oppressed masses used to tell about the USSR.

I do not blame you and other British, the MSM is crumbling and socialists attacked you and everything you ever held dear, first; but you should know better. If this is a class struggle, we're on the same team. We could be having an international "Tea Party" tax protest instead of holding out for "hope" in O.

beloved

You may enjoy this:

Laughing at the Contradictions of Socialism in America

Old Soviet-era jokes have become disturbingly applicable to the U.S.

March 5, 2009 - by Oleg Atbashian

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/laughing-at-the-contradictions-of-socialism-in-america/