An American addition to the Islamists' armoury?

Dave

A complex issue and a thoughtful analysis. What a shame that if I read through Mel's post and come to a different conclusion I'm automatically one of "the west’s gloating Jew-haters"

Michael B

He also took $1 million for Saudi "public relations".

Truthtriumphs

It is an established truth that
former ambassadors to the Saudi regime remain permanently in their pay, and so to earn their pay off they continue to spout anti-Israel propaganda for as long as they are able.
I sincerely hope that Netanyahu's coalition partners will include Avigdor Lieberman's party, and so safeguard Israel's security. It will be a source of great pleasure to see the Obama/Clinton overtures to Hamas going precisely nowhere.

Jenny

Anne Bayefsky writes further on Durban II, which is reflected on by American Thinker:

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/02/anna_bayefsky_says_obama_is_sa.html
Ed Lasky writes: ‘Anne Bayefsky says Obama is Sacrificing Israel’

Here is the Bayefsky piece itself The Obama Administration Sacrifices Israel:
http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/22/obama-israel-holocaust-durban-opinions-contributors_united_nations.html

So take that with the Obama flirtation with Chas W. Freeman Jr outlined by Ms Phillips above and you finally see what Obama thinks of Israel.

Robert

How are his views 'viciously' prejudiced. I suppose he's not Jewish, so he's antisemitic. If he was, he'd be a self-hating Jew, itself a stereotype concocted by Israeli apologists.
You folks' favourite paper the guardian has another piece of reporting of Israeli injustice/islamist propaganda here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/20/israelandthepalestinians-israeli-elections-2009
Will someone here please justify Israeli policy in the West Bank? Is this supposed to help Abbas?

Austin Barry

He also said this to the United States Information Agency Alumni Association
04 October 2006:

'Muslim extremists seek to drive us from their lands by hurting us. They neither seek to destroy nor to convert nor to conquer us.'

No Jihad then, and no Caliphate, and we can all go back to sleep?

Straydingo

Robert,

The reason Israel as not left the West Bank is because of what happened when it left Gaza several years ago - the territory quickly becomes a launching pad for daily attacks against Israel - it’s as simple as that really.
The problem is that left-wing liberals just can’t accept the fact that the major political and religious groups that rule Gaza and the West bank are only interested in the destruction of Israel...you only have to spend a couple of hours researching these organisation own PR material, which is freely made available on the net, to get a snapshot of the reality that the brave Israelis have to face day in day out.
Israel is being used by moonbats primarily as a pawn in the cultural wars that have been waged over the last couple of decades – these people do not really give a jazz cracker about either the Palestinians or the Israelis.

An American

Well...I can at least be happy about one thing...I didn't vote for Obama.

Many of us over a year ago warned everyone what Obama and his cronies were going to do both at home and on the national front...it is all coming to fruition and quickly.

Israel will now have to stand alone against it's enemies...Obama's US will no longer be there for them.

After signing a trillion dollars for a so-called stimulus bill that amounted to nothing but 'Obama Payola' to unions, Democratic politicians, ACORN, etc. for getting him elected.

Obama is now going to have a press meeting to announce his 'Savings' Bill.

Yes...

Can you believe the gall of this guy?...After signing off on all these trillions of dollars with yet more to come...Obama is going to take a small break to announce that he is going to save the American public 50 billion dollars...he'll take it out of the Dept. of Defense...after all who do we need to be defended from? His Muslim friends? And while he's at it...he plans to raise taxes on those nasty hard working wealthy, how dare they have a nice home, cars and savings...

Of course, we haven't heard who among us, the 'Messiah' considers wealthy...apparently anyone that isn't a member of ACORN.

It makes me feel so comfy and safe to know that Obama is there for the American people...Oh sorry, I mean for the 40% of non-tax-paying liberal Democrats. The rest of us will be there only to leach from until we are sucked dry...and while Obama's at it, he'll tell us how selfish we are and we're bigots if we complain...because it will have to be about color...cowards that we are.

The way things are going...we'll be the next Mexico with hired guards protecting us from Obama's poor and his proposed ACORN Army. Think I'm exaggerating?..just wait.

gary ashton

no, i never hear the word jihad when thousands of islamic nutters march peacefully down the street due to a cartoon in a paper.
everyone go back to sleep, ha! barry well said.

Yehuda

Dave and Robert: We have reached the stage where "critics" of Israel are a camp comprising non-Jewish Jew-haters, as well as Jews by background, who share this hatred. All the objective evidence proves this.
But, don't worry so much: it's become academically,socially and politically acceptable.
Oh, by the way, re-read the Biblical Samson story.

Derek BLADES

Something calling itself Truththriumphs writes "It is an established truth that
former ambassadors to the Saudi regime remain permanently in their pay..." I understand this to meanh that Truthtriuph thinks that US Ambassadors are paid by the governments of the countries to which they are assigned. That is a quite remarkable suggestion and I am asking Truthtriumphs - without I admit much hope of an intelligent reply - to tell me where he, she or it got that idea from.

Roy

How full of betraying cowards the west has among its ranks. Rather than be given jobs to represent a section of the free world they should be condemned to everlasting purgatory and made to live with the ones they so admire and betray for.

Deegee

Robert - "How are his views 'viciously' prejudiced." are you kidding? did it occur to you that constantly firing rockets into another country may be considered aggressive? that spending all your money (i mean the US and EU AND ISRAELS money) that is given to you hand over hand on weapons instead of infrastructure, education, medicine, etc etc. and focusing your entire existence on the destruction of Israel, may mean that you are not this poor, passive, holy victim. Also - his facts about the settlements being illegal are false. Palestinians as a people did not exist until 20 years ago, they already have more than than they're legally entitled to.

steve

Melanie is completely wrong to say that the NIE on Iran's nuclear bomb program has been "disproved." Indeed, America's top intelligence officer, Director of National Intelligence Admiral Dennis Blair, just confirmed in his testimony to the Senate intelligence committee that the U.S. has no evidence that Iran has restarted its weapons program. It certainly is continuing its nuclear program but then that was never in dispute. She also clearly doesn't understand the nature of the NIE if she thinks a single individual can spin it. So this piece is about as credible then as her usual postings on here.

Ronnie

Question.

Which well-known and very influential family in the United States has had very close social and business ties with the Saudi Royal family for many, many years?

Clue - the senior member of this family was actually head of the CIA at one time.

Ordnance

Obama will only be in office for 4 years, or 8 as a lame-duck. Israel needs a strategy to resist US demands to surrender for those 4 or max 8 years. It should be possible.

George

Robert, you ask "Will someone here please justify Israeli policy in the West Bank? Is this supposed to help Abbas?".
Israel's policy is designed to ensure that terrorists don't attack Israel from the West Bank. It's called guaranteeing the safety of your citizens, a policy which every government in the world has. Israel's policy is not designed to help Abbas, but to help Israel.

George

Ronnie, why do think that Afghanistan and Iraq were attacked and not Saudi Arabia?

Dave

Yehuda: Yeah but what's the point of Mel inserting that phrase? It simply closes down any argument. As Robert said you're either a "self-hating Jew" or "anti-semitic" and the debate is over.
Mel may well be right, but since this rather simple device is then used to sure up her views and lock them into place why bother paying attention to anything she says?
Her and I are different people, we can't agree on every shade of opinion, but Mel has this nasty little response ready to go. Silencing any queries or unease let alone actual disagreement.

Ronnie

Yes, George, there are many interesting questions surrounding the West's relationship with Saudia Arabia, notwithstanding their known funding of Islamic terrorist groups.

Why has Bin Laden never been captured?

HarleyDavidson

Melaine,
I wrote about Chas W. Freeman Jr., a former US ambassador to Saudi Arabia here on this blog earlier. Freeman joins Powers, Rice, Jones in sensitive positions pf power within the Obama administration that will set this administration's foreign agenda for the next four years.

The above mentioned are all fanatical anti-Israel and anti-Jew individuals with reams of material available on the net of their personal and professional ideology for those who wish to research these people themselves.

This is no rookie mistake on Obama's part. You have to go completely out of your way to find so fanatical a group of individuals as this. Durban 2 was just the beginning.

The die is cast. With Obama's lead the thin veneer of civility practiced by Britain and the EU with reference to Israel has been shattered. Mark my words I expect state sponsored antisemitism to by both Britain and the EU within six months. Especially with the economic conditions that will sweep across Britain and the EU as marching season approaches the Jews will once again be singled out for the ills of the world exactly as Nazi Germany practiced short year ago.

100,000 marched in Dublin according to police on Saturday over economics. Others are happening across the EU. The world is in for radical change in the next six months that will have long term consequences few understand even now. The blame is sure to follow.

Israel is alone. The question is does Bibi and his team recognize with the Obama administration he is alone? Does Bibi recognize with Obama's support the Muslims will be emboldened and trouble is just around the corner? Furthermore does Bibi and his team recognize the danger to Israel? Does Bibi have the courage to stand up to America and tell them publicly to butt out of their business? And finally, is Bibi prepared to use all means at their disposal to meet the political and military challenges facing Israel?

Anaximanders other sandal

Dave, You are what you are, I know what you are even if you don't, so please stop trying to be clever.
In doing so, you simply amplify your own Left wing Ideological prejudice, admit what you are, just for once can't you "oh men of the left" just admit what you are and stop pretending to be the guardians of the little guys, because everyone can see through this cloak of self righteousness, the left have brought us to this global impasse re Islamists and as usual they try to deflect the blame onto the Jews, I for one am sick and tired of listening to self hating left wing appeasers who cannot even admit what they really stand for.
People like you, yes you dave, don't want to debate, you want to dictate,thats probably why you "oh men of the left" have a affinity with the likes of Hamas, yes its your way or else screams of Islamophobia and Neocon, well I have some breaking news Dave it doesn't work anymore, OK.
No, well never mind because the view of people like yourself really doesn't matter anymore,it may not seem that way at the moment but it really doesn't.

Ian Parker

Looks as if Israel isn't exactly 'standing alone' just yet.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11743

Stephen Fox

Derek Blades
Since the post directly above the one you criticise for apparently alleging that all countries pay the ambassadors sent to them (which in any case it plainly does not) links to an article quoting Freeman in 2006 as admitting the receipt by his Middle East Policy Council of $1m from King Abdullah for the purposes of PR in the US, I am at a loss to know what you’re on about.
Saudi routinely pumps out money for this (see the Carter Foundation’s donor list). It is not a secret.

Concerning Freeman’s remark that the ‘Palestinians’ only retain 11% of the original Palestine Mandate, two thirds of the Mandate was immediately hived off to form the Arab state of Jordan. If the remainder were split equally between Israel and the Arabs, they would at most have 17%. They have lost ground because of their ceaseless aggression since 1948. So he is being misleading when he implies outrageous injustice.
And his reference to the American Indians is bizarre. Using his logic (?), one might ask, why should they not have half of the US? In the Middle East, Arabs control whole swathes of territory taken and held by force of arms, and whose area dwarfs that of Israel. Comparing them to Indians is ridiculous.

darsan

I find the concern of the gent under discussion viz,Chass freeman for american bllod and life touching.He will be more effective than a hundred Bin ladens in effecting america"s destruction. darsan

Truthtriumphs.

Derek BLADES.
You ask where I "got the idea from" that ambassadors to Saudi Arabia remain in the pay of the Saudi regime for many years.
BLADES---it's called knowledge--extensive reading of reliable sources, somewhat different from that which "informs" your bigoted mindset. People like you tend to adapt the "facts" to fit their favoured theories.
Indeed, since the Saudis spend billions of petrodollars exporting terror around the globe, including evil books found in UK Islamic schools to teach Wahabism--- a creed full of hatred for the "infidel" like you, it is unsurprising that the Saudi regime invests those billions of dollars in trying to influence the world's only superpower, in a bid to undermine Israel in every way possible (instead of giving money to help the "starving" Palestinians.)
I hope this hasn't been to intelectually demanding for you to grapple with.
By the way, if you wish to be taken seriously, try paying attention to your spelling---there were 3 mistakes in your post. So much for your attention to detail and accuracy!

Original Tony

Truthtriumphs...I support your views but there are two spelling mistakes in your last paragraph.."to" should be "too" and "intelectually" should be "intellectually" so be careful before you nitpick other posters' spelling mistakes (just like I am doing!).
On a more serious note, Israel will never be wiped off the face of the map so I look forward to a long future visiting those fine people and the Arabs will never prosper outside of oil revenue. They follow a fanatical religion that is like a two-headed snake that is always biting the other head, compounded by lies, more lies and deceit. America is falling prey to their trap so God help the USA, the best thing to do is prove Obama is not a citizen and get him out of office!

Dave

Anaximanders other sandal: "Men of the left" "self hating"
What's the point? I arrived at this blog because of Mel's "thoughts" on science. I guess being a Tory voter in the UK probably isn't left wing enough for some on here. But really such fragile assumptions just make you look foolish.
But I get the message. Debate is over. We must all agree with Mel.
In which case why have the comments section at all?

Confused

Why worry? There is really nothing to worry about. Israel is fine.

I talk to a Jewish friend about once a week, who is well wired into the California Jewish community. The message is not to worry. Democrats are very good friends to the Jewish people. The Republicans are the problem. Everything bad is Bush's fault. He's gone, so it is time to celebrate.

As a Gentile, my question is this. Why should I worry about Israel if the Jewish people are supporting this administration with everything they have? Perhaps, I should stop worrying about Israel, and worry about my own battered finances for a change. What do you think?

Ann

The Indian analogy is correct in one respect: the Jews are the equivalent of the native Americans. They were subjugated by invading Romans and Arabs and Turks for many centuries, but have achieved freedom in their own country.

L

Dave, February 22nd, 2009 10:26pm, says: 'if I read through Mel's post and come to a different conclusion I'm automatically one of "the west’s gloating Jew-haters"'.

Robert, February 22nd, 2009 11:41pm, asks: "How are his [Chas W. Freeman Jr] views 'viciously' prejudiced."

This is Chas W. Freeman Jr as quoted by Melanie Phillips above:

'There will be no acceptance of Israel, by the Arabs or by the Muslims - including the Iranians, and the Indonesians, and others, if Israel does not find a way of coexisting peacefully with the other inhabitants of the land in which it has established itself... Demonstrably, Israel excels at war; sadly, it has shown no talent for peace...'

The reason why comments like that make Freeman 'viciously' prejudiced against Israel is because how can anyone say: 'Israel excels at war' when Israel is not the one with the war agenda, that would be Article 7 of the Hamas Charter, which reads: "O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

If you want a mindset that 'excels at war' there it is.

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP109206

These Hamas people happen to do 'excelling at war' very well, here's one of their MPs:

"Allah has chosen you for Himself and for His religion, so that you will serve as the engine pulling this nation to the phase of succession, security, and consolidation of power, and even to conquests thorough da'wa and military conquests of the capitals of the entire world.

"Very soon, Allah willing, Rome will be conquered, just like Constantinople was, as was prophesised by our Prophet Muhammad. Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam – this capital of theirs will be an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread through Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, and even Eastern Europe.

"I believe that our children or our grandchildren will inherit our jihad and our sacrifices, and Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them. Today, we instil these good tidings in their souls, and by means of the mosques and The Koran books, and the history of our prophets, his companions, and the great leaders, we prepare them for the mission of saving humanity from the hellfire on the brink of which they stand." (Hamas MP Yunis Al-Astral, Al-Aqsa TV on April 11, 2008)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x_qbKrOF64w

This is Hamas in its own words. That, Robert, is why Chas W. Freeman Jr is 'viciously' prejudiced - he simply doesn't want to to know what really drives this conflict. That, Dave, is why only 'the west’s gloating Jew-haters' who think there is something valid in saying "O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!" could welcome the potential appointment of this Freeman person.

solemnman

The cats out of the bag with all the nasty kitty litter.It's what i expected but I didn't think it would happen so soon.I thought it would come about(ala Erdogan) with more stealth.

Wm. Hazlitt

The man's job for several years was to facilitate the close relationship between the elites of the US and Saudi Arabia, which no doubt influences his opinions on how the US national interest is best served in the Middle East. He expresses those opinions in clear and comparatively measured terms. You may well disagree with them. But why the "viciously prejudiced" and the "west's gloating jew haters"? This is not rational debate. What purpose is it intended to serve?

Berney

Dave: *In which case why have the comments section at all?*

Obvious really - to heap abuse and scorn on those like yourself who just do not get it.

One of life's little pleasures, and every little helps.

barackobama

Since 1945, Saudi Arabia has been, with the exception of when the President Kennedy recognised the republican regime in Yemen in 1962 and the 1973 oil embargo, America's most reliable Arab Middle East partner. The Republican Party, including both Bushes, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, have been closer to Saudi Arabia than the Democrats. Ronald Reagan formed an alliance with the Saudis to expel the Soviets from Afghanistan and challenge Communism in Africa. The list of examples of Saudi-US partnership is almost endless. This has been done because practically everyone in the US, and especially everyone on the right of American politics, believes being close to Saudi Arabia strengthens US national interests.
The opinions of Mr Freeman about the Palestine mandate are inconsequential compared with this unchallangeable truth and essentially irrelevant because he has absolutely no influence on what happens there. This is down to the Israeli people and the Palestinians.
An excellent definition of the realities of the Arab-Israel conflict that the Obama administration will have to deal with are contained in a thoughtful article in this week's Weekly Standard by Elliott Abrams, President Bush's deputy national security advisor. I'm sure this will be much more influential on US Middle East policy than any previous statements by Mr Freeman.

Michael B

Commenter 'barackobama' does take note of some realpolitik factors and history that cannot be denied. Yet there are two basic problems with a too narrow focus on a purported "realism" and "realpolitik" narrowly conceived, 1) Chas Freeman represents a pov applied to Israel and the Sunni Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza that is simply beyond the pale, that is unhinged from some absolutely basic realities in the region and 2) it isn't Freeman alone that is the concern, it's others in Obama's chosen circle such as Samantha Power, not to mention advisors used during the campaign such as Robert Malley and Jimmy Carter's NSA, Zbigniew Brzezinski. Similarly still, the recent congressional delegation visiting Israel, Gaza and the West Bank, also including a too friendly visit to Syria's Bashar Assad, consisted of Keith Ellison (D-MN), Brian Baird (D-WA) and John Kerry. All of this and more (e.g., Susan Rice at the U.N., the re-engagement with Durban II, a degree of obsequiousness in the direction of Iran and elsewhere) is not a problem simply because these are all Left/Dem appointees and politicos, rather it's a problem because it all reflects a presumptively "best and brightest" groupthink and because literally all of these actors have evidenced statements that are in fact unhinged from some very basic realities as applied to the Levant and the wider region, that has global implications as well.

phil

Dave
February 22nd, 2009 10:26pm

A complex issue and a thoughtful analysis. What a shame that if I read through Mel's post and come to a different conclusion I'm automatically one of "the west’s gloating Jew-haters" ------
Have you ever thought that perhaps you are? -you are always ready to have a pop at us with snide remarks and your "in" asides -it is of course you who seems to care what we think of you ,so make it plain exactly where you stand and then the posters will make it plain what they think of you .

George Laird

Dear All

Melanie seems to believe that America should give Israel one sided support unconditionally for ever.

I read her previous article which was some emotional piece. I can only conclude she is at it!

Traitors in the White House indeed, how would America be a traitor if it stopped supporting Israeli? I thought; you can only be a traitor if you betray your country.

“After I wrote the assessment below of the threat already posed by Obama’s policy towards Israel and the Islamist war against the west, news emerged of a further possible appointment to his administration which exceeds in sheer brazenness the malice even of the others. Chas W. Freeman Jr., a former US ambassador to Saudi Arabia, who is tipped to become chairman of the National Intelligence Council, is a piece of work”.

Does he need your approval, if so, why? Does he need Israel’s approval? Should Israeli have a veto on the appointments of Brack Obama?

“In 2008, he told the Middle East Policy Council:
Hamas’ ascendancy as an elected government in Gaza has been accompanied by new extremes in suffering for the Palestinian people... How can there be two states when one of them is limited to less than 11 percent of the original territory of the Palestine mandate? How can there be two states when one state has the sovereignty that we accord to Indian tribes, rather than the sort of sovereignty that is generally recognized internationally as pertinent to a state?”

Explain what is wrong with that? Is he not stating a fact? Do facts not matter unless they support yours and Israel’s position?

“In September 2005, he told the National Council on US-Arab Relations:
As long as the United States continues unconditionally to provide the subsidies and political protection that make the Israeli occupation and the high-handed and self-defeating policies it engenders possible, there is little, if any, reason to hope that anything resembling the former peace process can be resurrected. Israeli occupation and settlement of Arab lands is inherently violent. ...And as long as such Israeli violence against Palestinians continues, it is utterly unrealistic to expect that Palestinians will stand down from violent resistance and retaliation against Israelis”.

So, should America support Israel occupation of Palestine land? If, the answer is yes, why have a peace process? Doesn’t that support my view that all Israel wants is a walled ghetto, a walled ghetto with an uneducated cheap Arab workforce living in it to supply their needs.

“And that in turn paled by comparison with these remarks by Freeman in 2006, reported on the Saudi/US Relations Information Service:
There will be no acceptance of Israel, by the Arabs or by the Muslims - including the Iranians, and the Indonesians, and others, if Israel does not find a way of coexisting peacefully with the other inhabitants of the land in which it has established itself... Demonstrably, Israel excels at war; sadly, it has shown no talent for peace... For the past half decade Israel has enjoyed carte blanche from the United States to experiment with any policy it favored to stabilize its relations with the Palestinians and its other Arab neighbors, including most recently its efforts to bomb Lebanon into peaceful coexistence with it and to smother Palestinian democracy in its cradle”.

Is the truth so difficult to bear? Why should the Arabs accept Israeli occupation?

“Tragically, despite all the advantages and opportunities Israel has had over the fifty-nine years of its existence, it has failed to achieve concord and reconciliation with anyone in its region, still less to gain their admiration or affection. Instead, with each decade, Israel's behavior has deviated farther from the humane ideals of its founders and the high ethical standards of the religion that most of its inhabitants profess”.

Doesn’t he have a point? Surely in 59 years there must have been Israelis who had the skills to bring about a peaceful settlement?

Is Israel so devoid of diplomatic talent?

“He even blamed Israel for 9/11 and the Islamist war upon the west”.

I would say that is stretching it a bit, however it certainly doesn’t help matters.

“We have paid heavily and often in treasure in the past for our unflinching support and unstinting subsidies of Israel's approach to managing its relations with the Arabs. Five years ago we began to pay with the blood of our citizens here at home. We are now paying with the lives of our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines on battlefields in several regions of the realm of Islam, with more said by our government's neoconservative mentors to be in prospect”.

The fight will Islamic extremists would have happened at some point in my opinion.

“So close is Freeman to Saudi Arabia that Ed Lasky previously remarked he should more properly be described as Saudi’s ambassador to America:
As head of the Middle East Policy Council, he has promoted the interest of Saudi Arabia. He shares Board membership with executives from major multinationals with major markets in Saudi Arabia and the Arab world, Frank Carlucci-head of the Carlyle Group, George McGovern, and...a representative of the giant Saudi Binladin Group”.

This seems like sour grapes because Freeman is feathering his nest that is politics, you go where the money is, ask Blair; he pocketed one million dollars recently from Israel!

“If he is appointed to this new intelligence role, Freeman will shape the intelligence assessments that will tell America, among other things, what threats are posed to America and the free world by the Iranian regime. We already saw, with the misleading and manipulatively spun NIE two years ago which facilitated the demonstrably false conclusion that Iran had stopped working on the bomb – a conclusion almost immediately disproved by further intelligence but which was used to head off action against Iran – how such politicised intel can be used to thwart attempts to stop the Iranian bomb”.

I think Melanie will find that Obama will have more than one source and a team to work through any information forwarded to him.

Let’s not make a mountain out of a molehill.

“With such viciously prejudiced views and such an intimate association with the principal force behind the Sunni division of the Islamic jihad, can anyone apart from the west’s gloating Jew-haters doubt that the appointment by America’s 44th President of Chas W Freeman as chairman of the NIC would be a stunning coup as a weapon in the armoury of the enemies of the Jewish people and the free world?”

This really seems to be high doe stuff for Melanie’s finale. Thoughts are not vicious, actions can be! This obsession with running about calling anyone who disagrees with Israel policy as “jew haters” serves to undermine rational debate. The reason Israel loses support is people ask themselves, why support a country that refuses to help itself?

Israel has to open its borders and start a real peace process rather than its policy of wanting a manageable cheap Arab workforce on tap.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

phil

Truthtriumphs--I wouldnt waste too much time trying to educate derek the blade -he will not make use of your intellect ,he never does for anyone else .he just returns from time to time to say something to annoy us -well he serves one useful purpose anyway he gives me a giggle and I am grateful for that .

Michael

Hey Berney,

If one of your life's little pleasures is 'heaping scorn' on people in this forum with whom you happen to disagree with then can I suggest you maybe get out a bit more?

Perhaps it would prove more useful to whatever cause you aspire to for you to be acutally out there in the real world, tangibly helping in whatever way you can to further your aims?

All the best.

KM

Lets face it Europe is for sale and if the price is right ...it's quisling leaders will sell out and quiver in their champagne flutes. Be damned Israel and all our populations of serfs who exist only to pay their taxes and support the ever growing trojan horse in our midst. The fat lady has already sung.....unless ??

HarleyDavidson

George Laird
Georgie are you still fighting the evil Scots at Glasgow University? Struggling to bring the savages "human rights?" And on a side project you decide to branch out and bring "human rights" to the Palestinians from the "other" group of savages the Israelis? You are one busy boy, Georgie. Savages everywhere. BTW, how's the campaign going against the evil Scots?

Mr R

These days I just scroll through George Laird's preposterous, mostly juvenile (and those are the better parts), posts; haven't the patience to read them any longer.

Dave

Phil: A very fair point. Perhaps I am. *checks self for irrational Jew hatred* Hmmm. Of course I might be Jewish myself *checks self for irrational self loathing*

Dave

Oh and Barney? I might suggest even if you aren't interested in debate The Spectator is.

Linda Smith

George Laird: "Israel has to open its borders and start a real peace process".

Why should Israel open its borders to its self-declared enemies?
How does Israel start a peace process with Islamic fundamentalist Hamas and Hezbollah, Iran's proxies, who are religiously driven to destroy Israel as a Jewish state, to kill all the Jews on the planet and create a worldwide Caliphate?

As I am still waiting for a response from you to my question to you on another thread re Egypt's complicity in creating what you describe as a "new Warsaw Ghetto", I am not expecting a rational answer from you to this posting either.

PS Do you blame Britain for not starting a peace process with Hitler???

Gautam

Israel is staring down the barrel, let there be no doubt about this. Over the next weeks and months of the Obama administration, the process of the isolation of Israel will gain momentum. Israel will then have to negotiate with its enemies, for the first time in its modern existence, from a position of weakness. What this would mean for Israel in the long term, is anybody's guess. Caught in this situation, what does Israel do? Take out Iran's nukes. Or something like that. Because the only advantage it enjoys over its Arab neighbours is brute military superiority. For Israel it is supremely important to maintain this vital edge as this alone ensures its free existence. So, effectively, what Obama has done or is doing is leave Israel to its own devices, a move fraught with very serious consequences. Engagement with Israel is the need of the hour; leaving it to fend for itself is an absolute no-brainer.

The Triguy

God, I love this blog and what Mel writes. It's just a shame I can't get to it earlier in the day since I live in Northern Virginia. But keep up the discussion folks. It truly is enlighenting.

Yehuda

Dave: the debate "is over", just as it was over in 1938, when the enlightened West bullied and badgered democratic Czechoslovakia. The arguments, mutatis mutandis, were similar to those being ventilated today against Israel. In effect the West handed Czechoslovakia over to the Nazis on a silver platter. Now, if enlightened Western, freedom-loving people could do this to a non-Jewish nation-state, do you imagine they will think twice about doing it to the Jewish one? It's 2009, but we are in 1938 morally, mentally, economically, politically, socially, militarily.
HOWEVER, vive la difference: Israel is not Czechoslovakia, and the platter will explode in the West's face; some will say deservedly.

Conservative Cabbie

Dave

As surprising as it may be to both of us - I'm with you on this one. Petty name-calling (which both sides are engaged in) is doing this blog a great disservice.

This is (was) the best blog I've come across for informed debate with interesting views by both sides of the political divide. Unfortunately, cries of 'anti-semite' or 'Hamas supporter' are stifling debate of an interesting and complex matter. Shame.

An American

Yehuda,
You are right on... in your comparisons...although I'm not Jewish but a Conservative...I'm beginning to know how it must have felt to be an European Jew in the mid-1930's. I can't tell you the angst that many of us are feeling under Obama.

I agree...Israel will put up a hell of a fight.

Robert

George, so the occupation is a security measure. What about the settlements?

Robert

Another self-hating Jew critizing the Israeli government and by extension, Jews everywhere:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/23/israel-suspends-ceasefire-negotiator

HarleyDavidson

Folks if you thought you have read it all you ain't seen anything yet. The Obama administration is pledging $900,000,000 million to Gaza to help "rebuild."
Now I'm no rocket scientists but with $900 million headed to Gaza what do you suppose Hamas will do with their windfall from the Messiah? Build Gaza into a paradise? Or do you suppose Hamas will use this money or the funds this money will free up to go on an arms buying spree the likes the Middle East hasn't experienced in years. That's $900 million not counting the EU contribution soon to follow. Plus the Arabs will throw in a few more million.

Who says war is not a profitable business if you happen to be Muslim? Hezbollah also flood with western monies for attacking Israel knows how profitably war is for them. Now Gaza is growing wealthy compliments of Hamas.

Proof the west has completely lost its collective minds. Reward the terrorists. Don't worry you guys attack Israel we'll pay the bills and make it worth you while. Trust us you'll be even bigger heroes to your people because we all got your backs. And don't worry if Israel gets too rough we'll put the boots to them before you all get in any trouble.

d1carter

Hey, Mel, Geert is here is the USA...

barackobama

Michael B.
Thanks for the response. There is a big difference between what people fear and what will happen. As you note, the reality is there is no possibility of any progress being made on the Arab-Israel and even if the Obama administration decides to try and pressure Israel into concessions, it won't work. As Abrams writes, and he had the most consistently pro-Israel position expressed by anyone working in the heart of the administration of President George W Bush, the objective of US Middle East policy is to create a twin state in the Palestine mandate, but this can only be possible when the Palestinians show capacity to control their extremists.
It is going to be impossible for Obama's administration to reach any other conclusion. Abram's other sound point is that a "solution" is years away, well beyond the lifespan of Obama's first four-year term and probably his second.
As Abrams says, there is no chance of any compromises being made by Israel until the conditions are right and they are not. Nation and state-building is the first step.
As Abrams rightly also urges, the only intelligent approach to the Arab-Israel question is "realpolitik" not idealism and certainly not emotional ranting about Charles Freeman who is as significant for US Middle East polciy as the White House flagpole.
The fact that he's inside the tent rather than outside is actually more likely to reduce his effectiveness than increase it.
But I suppose if you hate the flag pole, go ahead and shout at it.
I get the impression that those forecasting that Obama is about to 'throw Israel under the bus" actually want this to happen so they can say they were right.
It can't and won't.
So calm down dear.

George

Robert,

There is no occupation in the "West Bank". The status of this area is disputed territory. The last sovereign power to have control was the UK until May 15th, 1948. Also, don't forget that parts of what is designated the West Bank were allocated to Israel in the UN's 1947 partition plan.
Once the Arabs rejected this partition plan and went to war over the entire territory of the British Mndate west of the River Jordan, then everything is up for grabs. They have been to war over this territory 3 times now (1948, 1967 and 1973). In the last two attempts to get all of the territory, not only did they not win, they also lost what they already had. To the victor, the spoils. So there is no legal problem with the settlements.
By the way, I live in a town called Kfar Saba. The 1949 armistice line is less than 3 miles to the West of where I live. Immediately to the East of that line is the town of Qalqilya, which is situated in what is called the West Bank. Yet the west bank of the Jordan river is over 50 miles away from Qalqilya. On the other hand, the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea are less than 12 miles away from Qalqilya. Maybe we should be changing the terminology and call Qalqilya part of the Eastern Mediterranean seaboard?

Berney

Dave *Oh and Barney? I might suggest even if you aren't interested in debate The Spectator is.*

If you continue to labour under the delusion that your subfusc sniping constitutes debate then of course I would have no wish to disabuse you of this irredeemable condition, thank you.

Linda Smith

George: I agree with your comment 24 Feb 7:20am

I am minded of the Franco-German dispute over Alsace. Each time Alsace changed hands as a result of war, it became part of either Germany or France. I don't hear anybody screaming that France is occupying Alsace. Why? Because, as with all other wars, winner takes all and Germany lost last time.

Ceuta is a city in North Africa, at the Strait of Gibraltar. The City area is about 28 square kilometers, and there are over 71,000 people living in the city. The city is surrounded by a border fence, which been built to keep the Moroccans (and other Africans) from moving there unlawfully. Ceuta is part of Spain (and therefore the European Union). Until it became self-governing in 1994, it belonged to the Cadiz province. (Wikipedia)

I don't hear anybody screaming that Ceuta in North Africa is occupied by Spain (and therefore the EU).

What I do hear is the usual hypocrisy in denying Israel's right to act in the same way as all other sovereign states.

davod

I worry that some of the people in the Obama Administraion will be passing about classified information to their friends around the world.

Augustus

"He even blamed Israel for 9/11 and the Islamist war against the West."

In other words, he celebrates the Islamist ideology of barbarism and the slaughter of innocents to communicate political messages. He recognizes without question those heroes of the
'resistance' like Hamas, Hezbollah and others. Well, you would have thought (wouldn't you?) that such people would have the sense to send such atrocities to the trashcan of history; the place reserved for slavery, human sacrifice, and other shocking and totally discredited practices of an earlier age.

Original Tony

Gautam 7:48...I agree with you, Israel is staring down the barrel. It's also true that Obama will force Israel to negotiate with its enemies from a weaker level and then you ask, what will the long term consequences of this be?
The consequence, and not long term, but rather short term, will be a false peace treaty insured by a very powerful but deceitful negotiator FROM EUROPE, not America.
Come on guys, read the Bible will you...it's ALL there!!

An American

davod,

They already are...Californian Democratic Senator Diane Feinstein recently announced the top-secret information that Pakistan is letting the US use their bases for our drones that have been killing jihadist leaders in northern Pakistan. The media had previously reported that the drones flew out of Afghanistan.

Either Feinstein is incompetent, senile or an enemy of the US...take your pick...one or all of the above.

As long as egotistical far-lefty Senators and their aids are given top-secret information...these 'so-called' slips will continue. I wonder how many American soldiers lives have been lost because of people like Feinstein.

Adam B.

Linda, exactly so. One could also point to the ethnic cleansing of German speakers from Prussia and the Sudetenland in 1945, and the redrawing of those borders. If people tell me that Palestinian Arabs must have the so-called "right of return", I ask them whether they take the same position about present day Germans who originate in Prussia and the Sudetenland returning to those territories, now in the Czech Republic and Poland.

They look blankly, of course they have never even heard of these areas. They are also completely unaware of Jewish refugees from Islamic nations, and the dhimmi treatment they endured in those countries.

Another example of selective "concern" from the pathological and irrational Israel haters. they are such hypocrites!

robin lloyd

i am a passionate supporter of the jewish state, i have family living in tel aviv, but i can't for the life of me see the value of accusing everyone who breathes the faintest criticism of israel of being a nazi, like melanie philips and many other commentators on this blog seem to do. it is of the utmost importance we keep world public opinion on our side; the massacres of arab children in lebanon and gaza in this regard, and in many others, we must acknowledge as being the most catastrophic blunders in our history, we have for no significant gain sickened world opinion and made ourselves a pariah state - now, what is to be gained from accusing world opinion of nazism? what??

Adam B.

robin, the whole premise of your post is untrue. very few on this blog would accuse people of being "nazis" for the "faintest criticism."

Perhaps you can provide an example?

Michelle

Robin, no we shouldn't be quiet.

We have already lost world public opinion. Let's take an example from the best publicity machine in the world.... the Militant Islamists. If any cartoon.. or an author or film maker presents anything that appears slightly offensive to Islam, thousands of demonstrators are marching through the streets of all the world capitals. If the Jews had done the same in the 30's, maybe events would have taken another course..... Speak up everybody!

Linda Smith

What is often overlooked is that two states were founded, based on partition, on an explicitly religious basis: Israel and Pakistan.

The Moslems of India agitated for their own religious state.

The 1947 UN Partition plan of India gave the Moslems their own state, Pakistan. East and West Pakistan were separated by India (parallels with West Bank and Gaza). There were terrible massacres and transborder displacement of population involving millions of people. I do not hear people screaming about "ethnic cleansing" in India and Pakistan. I do not hear people screaming for right of return for those displaced people,
I do not hear people screaming for the destruction of the states of Pakistan (and Bangladesh) to recreate one state of India because "land was stolen" and there was "ethnic cleansing" during the creation of Pakistan and Bangladesh, illegitimizing their right to exist.

Why? Because in the case of the partition of India, the Moslems perceived themselves as gaining Moslem territory. In the case of the partition of the British mandate of Palestine they perceived themselves as losing territory.

Rank hypocrisy.

barackobama

I am obliged, again, to recommend that everyone reads Elliott Abrams’ excellent article in The Weekly Standard.
This is because:
1 Abrams has served in senior foreign policy positions for presidents Reagan and George W Bush.
2 Abrams is a proven supporter of Israel and the Republican Party.
3 He was intimately involved with President Bush’s Middle East policy in 2005-08.
4 The Weekly Standard is owned by Rupert Murdoch, was founded by William Kristol and is edited by Fred Barnes.
5 The American left absolutely hates him.
One of the main points Abrams makes is that the problem President Obama will have with his Israel policy is unrealistic expectations.
The article is also interesting for what Abrams does not say, including that Obama is an anti-semitic Nazi-Marxist Al-Qaeda supporter packing his administration with Islamofascist terror agents gagging to destroy Israel.
There are two explanations for this omission. One is that he believes these claims are false.
The other is that Abrams knows all too well that they are true and, in fact, is yet another Alinksy sleeper who is working with Obama, the Democrats and The Left to destroy the West.
I won’t say which one is right because anyone capable of understanding The Spectator can work this out unaided.

Linda Smith

Robin Lloyd: While you worry about keeping "world opinion on our side", Israel's fight for survival will be lost. Genocide will ensue and the world will stand by and watch, as it stood by and watched the Holocaust and did nothing. The allies did not fight Germany to save Jews, they fought to save themselves.

I quote from Baroness Deach's speech in the House of Lords Debate on Gaza 6 February 2009

"The talk about what is proportionate*I prefer the word 'necessary' has to be seen in the context of a response to an attack from Hamas designed not just to launch rockets at Israel*5,000 rockets deliberately aimed at Israeli civilians and schoolschildren at 7.45 in the morning*but to end the state of Israel.

Hamas has vowed to have an Islamic state over Gaza, the West Bank and Israel as part of a wider Islamic empire. Israel has a 20 per cent Arab population, but not one Jew is to be allowed to live in this Islamic state. We can well imagine the fate planned for the millions of Israelis were this to come about...

Even the Palestinian Authority's President Abbas said: "Hamas has taken risks with the blood of Palestinians, with their fate and dreams and aspiration for an independent Palestinian state." The wider war is one of destruction of Israel and those who criticise Israel's attack on Gaza must realise that they are unwittingly giving succour to that plan.

Syria, Hezbollah in Lebanon, and Hamas all share that same aim of destroying Israel entirely and, indeed, Hamas has thanked Iran for its support in the Gaza war..."

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Israel doesn't need any help from the nouveau Americans and the new western Europeans, the leaders of this western countries are too young, too soft, too liberal and stupid, they fear from the right wing Islamic extremist, off course Israel don't need any support from this kind of uncultured American and European left wing crackers, hopefully the Israelis can succeed and survive by themselves like they always did with the help of the Lord
and let's say Amen

HarleyDavidson

robin lloyd
You have family living in Tel Aviv, correct? Far away from the rockets, correct? So YOUR family is safe then? How many family members do you have living on the Southern border with Gaza? None! Wow, who would have guessed?

Nevertheless, your concern for those countless families living in Southern Israel is touching. 6000 rockets and you're worried how you look? How the world perceives you? You're worried about world opinion? That world opinion put forward by the left media and people who don't and won't allow their own families to come and live in Southern Israel for a day let alone a year. Perhaps I'd even respect your opinion if you and your entire family moved to the Gaza border and lived with the rockets the rest of your lives. But you won't. You don't have the courage of your own convection, do you?

BTW, where did you get the massacres idea? Exactly whose intelligence are you using? Exactly what group or groups definitions are you using when the word massacre comes to mind?

FYI, the world hated Jews long before Gaza and Lebanon. Do the Russian pogroms mean anything to you? The European pogroms? The Catholic church pogroms of forced Christianity or death. The inquisition? Jews turned away from every nation on earth when trying to escape the Nazis? Resulting in the murder of six million Jews? Remind me again, exactly when did the world like Jews?

Michael B

barackobama,
In point of fact, I very simply and briefly described some current realities, and personalities who are central to the present administration in Washington. So, calm down yourself, dear.

Linda Smith

Minor correction to my post of 7:51pm: Partition of India was not done by the UN.

Michael B

Chas Freeman, had business ties with the bin Laden family - after Sept 11. Excerpt:

"Subsequent investigation by U.S. intelligence agencies and journalists of bin Laden family ties to Al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden raised questions about the authenticity of the family's claim of financial and emotional distance from the world's most wanted terror leader."

PJ

Robert, land is one of the spoils of war. The reason the settlements are necessary is that the 'Palestinians' would kill any
Jew who tried to live there peacefully, whereas a fifth of the population of
Israel are Arabs and we allow them to stay AND give them the vote! And yet they try to blow us up. If we really were Nazis, we'd have rounded them up by now.

scarf

Ray Close, CIA station chief in Riyadh, become paid consultant to Prince Turki; another Riyadh CIA station chief retired to Spain on a Saudi consultancy; Frank Anderson, CIA's near east division chief retired in '95 and joined a Washington consultancy with close connections with Saudi govt; a number of Britain's M16 middle east specialists also acquired retainer contracts from Saudi govts / Royalty.
" Ghost Wars", by Stephen Coll, page 63, item 23.
The implication from the item was that most top western operatives in Saudi played the game to win life time support from the Saudi govt/establishment, and thus, essentially, were turned.
Nothing has changed i'm sure. Should keep in mind Bush received Saudi money that saved him from bankruptcy as an oil man, and of course ex-prez Carter's 'center' is largely funded, as i understand it, from Saudi money.

Manny Goldstein

There is no logic here. Rahm Emanuel served with (not in) the IDF in the past to demonstrate his support for Israel, he is now Chief of Staff for Obama. Dennis Roos was a lobbyist for AIPAC as well as being involved in Middle East affairs during the Clinton administration. Who thinks that they will sell out US interests for Israel just because they are Jewish?

Nobody is suggesting that they will be anything less than professional in their conduct, Emanuel has even gone so far as to publicly rebuke his own father on this topic!

Obama has appointed a series of strong and experienced people to key roles in his administration. The very idea is that Obama would appoint Freeman if his views were biased is an insult to both men.

Obama wants to hear from a broad spectrum, especially given the quality of intelligence briefings that took place during the Bush administration.

Ann

"i can't for the life of me see the value of accusing everyone who breathes the faintest criticism of israel of being a nazi, like melanie philips and many other commentators on this blog seem to do. it is of the utmost importance we keep world public opinion on our side; the massacres of arab children in lebanon and gaza"

Every single word you wrote is a fantasy. NOBODY is 'accusing everyone who breathes the faintest criticism of israel of being a nazi' - that is hysterical nonsense. And there was no 'massacre' - there was Israeli self-defence, 100% legit. If you don't like Jews defending themselves, tough cheese. Israel will continue to practise it. Smell the coffee.

Ann

"The very idea is that Obama would appoint Freeman if his views were biased is an insult to both men."

Crikey, another Obamessiah groupie not using her brain. So, we are not allowed to criticise Obama now? Maybe we are not even allowed to type his name unless we first genuflect and kiss the floor?

Derek BLADES

robin lloyd; Your posting of February 24th, 2009 7:09pm is the best on this site so far. You say precisely and succinctly what has been on my mind and that of many others who are bewildered at the scorn, ridicule and even hatred directed at anyone who shows the slightest concern for the many hundreds of Arabs killed in Israel's recent wars on Lebanon and Gaza.
Keep up your postings and don't be put off by name-calling from the paranoid bigots who infest Ms Phillips' blog.

Derek BLADES

Lizzy Smith, 24 February wrote "I don't hear anybody screaming that Ceuta in North Africa is occupied by Spain (and therefore the EU)."

Why "screaming" Lizzie? If you ask my opinion about Ceuta - or Melilla, Gibraltar, Falkland Islands and other bits of the World whose ownership is in dispute - I will give it to you without any screaming at all.

You go on to say "What I do hear is the usual hypocrisy in denying Israel's right to act in the same way as all other sovereign states." Russia's actions in Georgia and Chechnya, Indonesia's war on Timor Leste, and Sudan's suppression of the Darfur nationalist movements were all portrayed by the guilty parities as legitimate defence of their national sovereignty. But they have all aroused world-wide condemnation. There is no reason whatsoever why Israel's slaughter of civilians in its neighbouring countries should be treated any differently. For what it did in Lebanon and Gaza, Israel has been widely and vigorously condemned by people of good sense throughout the world. That does not make us hypocrites.

Adam B.

Derek Blades, what does make us hypocrites is working for the Communist dictatorship of China with its terrible human rights record, then pontificating that democratic Israel has no right to defend herself.

You're a hypocrite derek.

Bill M

The Pied Piper Obama is marching our children to the river of their destruction.

Adam B.

derek Blades, of course its hypocrisy. Just look at the streets - where are the marches, the hysteria in the media? Attend any left wing/liberal political meeting, they will talk of Gaza and Guantanamo Bay, not the real genocides in Darfur or the Congo - or for that matter your friends in China who have oppressed the Tibetan people for decades - arrest without charge, torture, a complete absence of human rights. This hypocrisy is glaringly obvious.

phil

D. BLADES---"For what it did in Lebanon and Gaza, Israel has been widely and vigorously condemned by people of good sense throughout the world. That does not make us hypocrites-----."-GOOD SENSE IN YOUR DICTIONARY TRANSLATES TO ANTI-SEMITES and that is a description that you will know I rarely ever use.You showed your true colours the other day when you tried to post your disgusting views on the condolences thread and achieved it by mistake for a short time-I am pleased to say I notified Pete and it was taken down -your behaviour was unspeakable ,how anyone could write like that on a thread where we were offering the family our heartfelt sympathy is beyond me -Many will remember what you did,and what you are . I hope Pete will put this up especially for all of us who were so offended .

Tony Allwright

In a Spectator article entitled "Down with Saudi Arabia" (http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/cartoons/9805/down-with-saudi-arabia.thtml), Mark Steyn identified Charles Freeman as what the Irish would term a sleeveen way back in March 2002. Does Obama know what he is doing (ie vindictively anti-Semitic) or not (ie incompetent)?