Israel's choice

Robert

Melanie, there already is an arms embargo on Iran and Amnesty have condemned Hamas, so you've sold two distortions in the first paragraph already.

Wilhelm

Cue the hateful anti semitic rants from the lefty liberals cuddling up to homophobic, anti democratic, the one and only, every ones favourite fruit and nutcase, Achmed Dinnerjacket.

Vision Aforethought

@M: Did you or anyone watch Mark Urban's report on Newsnight tonight that was yet another massively biased report? It covered an (alleged) IDF 'attack' on a cemetery in Gaza. It is amazing the way these British reporters believe everything the Arabs say, yet nothing that the Israelis say. And never does he ask, why would Israel intentionally fire shells at an international cemetery? (The IDF were firing back at the enemy, and some shrapnel hit the cemetery.

All more ammunition to the haters of course.

Meanwhile, another holocaust denier returns to the comfort of Great Britain. Where he will no doubt join fellow haters in stirring up, uhm, more hatred and lies?

Roy

If my name was Israel I would get out the bomb and promise to use it, if need be.

Truthtriumphs.

I have every confidence that these craven appeasers of Islam will very soon reap the whirlwind, when the wrath of Islam is focussed upon the West with an intensity that we have not yet seen.
People like Crooke will sell their souls to the devil himself in the cause of self-promotion and enrichment.
Israel will survive and flourish, to the fury of anti semites worldwide.

Michael B

Robert, Germany alone sells plenty of armaments and technology to Iran and Amnesty's token condemnation against Hamas has been precisely that, a token gesture only. So in a single sentence, you've sold two distortions. Do you work for the BBC, or a PR firm that works for Iran?

Ian G

It was said of the Christian Science (Do not confuse it with scientists who are Christian) movement that it was neither Christian nor scientific. Something similar can be said of Christian Aid. I stopped giving to them back in the seventies. Some of us had become savvy to them even then.

Paul L

Isnt it long past the time that withholding the licence fee is in order?

Jason from AZ

Melanie, I'm an avid reader of your columns, but the news is so depressing I feel like "putting my head in the sand" rather than learn how the death of Israel, and probably Western civilization as we know it, seems to be only a matter of time.

In a certain respect, we have ourselves to blame. There are no more Churchill's or FDR's. Let's face the unfortuate facts, the appeasers, multiculturists, and Jew haters are the majority.

I agree with Roy, if I were Israel, I would not hide the fact the I had a multitude of nukes, and, unlike in the '30's, the world will not see the Jews the victims of genocide this time around.

Jerry

Re Robert is either naive or a knave or both. The arms embargo against Iran does not exist. Western Europe, Russia and China supply weapons, raw materials or dual use items to Iran where they are passed along to Syria, Hizb'Allah and Hamas, international agreements not withstanding.
/
Amnesty is far more critical of Israel than of Hamas and seeks to have its way with the US and Europe in restricting or eliminating weapons sales to Israel, while full well knowing it can have no such effect upon arms flow to Hamas.
/
What we have in Robert is irrational anger at those who defend Israel, a place he would never visit so that he might retain his preconceived notions.

Gilbert Belwether

"Only on Israel, their designated victim... Oh, and on Hamas."
Says it all doesn't it?

Sandra

Melanie, once more, an excellent article. How I wish I could believe you were absolutely wrong and that the west was not sleepwalking towards catastrophe and genocide. Sadly, I feel you are correct and far sighted in your analysis.

Kimberley

Hamas is not a "state". Melanie was suggesting Amnesty had not included any Islamic states when they recommended an arms embargo against Israel.

leigh

Melanie you refer to the Quran about killing Jews wherever they may be found. This is actually in the hadiths such as Bukhari 4/176: Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

Merlin

And how does Amnesty suggest we stop the smuggling of bomb making materials and the creation of same. , or storage under civilians? Melanie, keep up the good work, we need you.

Foster

Firstly, Mark Regev has admitted on the record (Today programme) that the IDF used white phosphorus in its recent incursion into Gaza. What's the justification for this?

And secondly, an Iranian bomb restores the balance of power in the Middle East. If nothing else it should ensure the good behaviour of the Americans and the Israelis.

Why is Israel allowed to be the only nuclear power in the region?

And thirdly, why do people assume that only the Left are critical of Israel? I've voted Conservative for the past 30 years, but even I can see the grave error of Israel's ways. Politics don't enter into it - Israel is in the wrong.

Paul Weston

Over the next 20-30 years the worse case scenarios for Israel (annhialation) and the West (religious civil war a la Yugoslavia but on a massive scale) could atually happen.

If so, what are we to do with those members of Western governemnts and media outlets who have helped rather than hindered such an outcome?

Gruntson

"Why are so many noted intellectuals always so drawn towards suicidal idiocy and totalitarian ideas?"

Because it gives them hard-on?

It would be wise to include human sexuality in any account which attempts to explain the inconsistencies of intellectuals. How else could one begin to interpret Jacqueline Rose if not by positing a link between her delusions and repressed fears of the (m)other?

steve

Michael B: Can you reference some evidence regarding Germany selling weapons to Iran as I'm interested in learning more about this?

Ganpat Ram

Maybe Israel should embrace the atrabs, not reject them?

After all, what has Israel to lose?

Are not arabs fellow Semites, sons of Abraham? Do they not profess a very strict monotheistic creed? Do they not keep the same dietary laws as Jews? Do they not wear skull caps? Do they not learn the Koran by rote just as Yeshiva students learn the Torah?

So, what's the big fuss about?

It is with us Hindu polytheists that Jews and Muslims should have their fights.

Nachman

Foster - The use of phosphrous is legal under International Law and the Red Cross have confirmed that Israel's use was within the guidlines, i.e. it was used to light up ares of conflict - that those areas were in densely populated ares was because Hamas in breach of the rules of war located its command and control in those populated ares and used the basement of Gazas main hospital to store weapons and ammunition.

Secondly, I have yet to hear any leader of Israel stand up and call for the destruction of Iran whereas Irans admitted aim is the erasure of the State of Israel from off the world map. If you are happy to see a rogue Islamofascist state like Iran which arms and funds terrorist groups around the world have the capability of dropping or threatening the dropping of a nuclear bomb on Europe in furtherance of the Islamic aim of a world Caliphate then more fool you!

Terry

Which is why, when amnesty appraoch me in the street for money, I spend at last 5 minutes explaining that I don't give money to racist organisations that support nazis. At the end of the 5 minutes I tell them how pleased I am to have taken up their time so they couldn't collect blood money from less clued up members of the public.

GutClean

Mostly sympathetic to all this.

The Amnesty report doesn't suggest that Israel deliberately targeted civilians. It does however in its introduction note for example that Israel used incendiary devices in densely-populated residential areas and then goes on to remark that direct attacks on civilians are war-crimes and the whole effect of which of course begs the question quite unacceptably and frankly must be considered as invalidating the entire report.

Alastair Crooke slightly known to me and considered naive (yet to merit a single notice in a journal such as 'Foreign Affairs' I observe). Karen Armstrong entirely new to me and looking at a few internet resources I would agree she's both deluded and quite fanastically stupid. But Edward Said indeed admired by me for his pseudo-scholarship and I'm fascinated to learn that the Frankfurt school has undermined Western liberal values - I had rather thought it was trying to restore them, silly me.

I'll pass on checking out the Radio 4 podcast of 'Start the Week' - sorry, one doesn't really do radio.

As for Iran's nuclear bomb it is developing it in violation of its treaty obligations with the help of US (to begin with) and Russian (originally USSR) nuclear technology and of course Israel as its most threatened neighbour has every right to neutralise the threat as it sees fit and politic and personally I'm surprised it has so far shown such a degree of restraint.

storm

re steve..during the Q8 gulf war it was reported that both german + chinese specialists were meeting Iraq military representatives to offer advice on weapons previously bought from them.

Nehama, UK

Ganpat Ram said - "After all, what has Israel to lose?"

Errr, everything, have you ever read the Koran? It calls for the rule of Islam and the subjugation of the Jews (and Christians) and the destruction of everyone else.

"Are not arabs fellow Semites, sons of Abraham?"

Arabic is a semitic language, true, but there is no reason to give credence to the Islamic claim that the Arabs are descended from Abraham. There is no evidence to suggest anyone before Mohammed believed that, and Abraham was some 2000 years before Islam, that's a big gap.

"Do they not profess a very strict monotheistic creed?"

They do, but their Allah is clearly not the same god as the God of Israel.

"Do they not keep the same dietary laws as Jews?"

No, not even similar except for the method of slaughter.

"Do they not wear skull caps?"

Duh! So what.

"Do they not learn the Koran by rote just as Yeshiva students learn the Torah?"

Yeshiva students do not learn the Torah by rote, they study Talmud and Torah by deconstucting the verses and arguing minutae. A process Islam would never tolerate in a million years, but which has built Judaism into a religion robust enough to have withstood 3500 years of persecution.

phil

AN EMAIL I RECEIVED ,MAYBE SOMEONE WILL TAKE NOTICE .

Bad news from France ...REAL BAD! for French Jews...

Once again, the real news in France is conveniently not being reported as it should. To give you an idea of what's going on in that country where there are now between 5 and 6 million Muslims and about 600,000 Jews, here is an E-mail that came from a Jew living in France.

Please read! "Will the world say nothing - again - as it did in Hitler's time?" He writes: "I AM A JEW -- therefore I am forwarding this to everyone on all my e-mail lists. I will not sit back and do nothing. Nowhere have the flames of anti-Semitism burned more furiously than in France. In Lyon, a car was rammed into a synagogue and set on fire. In Montpellier, the Jewish religious center was firebombed; so were synagogues in Strasbourg and Marseilles; so was a Jewish school in Creteil - all recently. A Jewish sports club in Toulouse was attacked with Molotov cocktails and on the statue of Alfred Dreyfus, in Paris, the words 'Dirty Jew' were painted. In Bondy, 15 men beat up members of a Jewish football team with sticks and metal bars. The bus that takes Jewish children to school in Aubervilliers has been attacked three times in the last 14 months. According to the Police, metropolitan Paris has seen 10 to 12 anti-Jewish incidents PER DAY in the past 30 days. Walls in Jewish neighborhoods have been defaced with slogans proclaiming 'Jews to the gas chambers' and 'Death to the Jews.' A gunman opened fire on a kosher butcher's shop (and, of course, the butcher) in Toulouse, France. A Jewish couple in their 20's were beaten up by five men in Villeurbanne, France (the woman was pregnant). A Jewish school was broken into and vandalized in Sarcelles, France. This was just in the past week."

"So I call on you, whether you are a fellow Jew, a friend, or merely a person with the capacity and desire to distinguish decency from depravity, to do - at least - these three simple things:

First, care enough to stay informed. Don't ever let yourself become deluded into thinking that this is not your fight. I remind you of what Pastor Neimoller said in World War II: 'First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.'

Second, boycott France and French products. Only the Arab countries are more toxically anti-Semitic and, unlike them, France exports more than just oil and hatred. So boycott their wines and their perfumes. Boycott their clothes and their foodstuffs. Boycott their movies. Definitely boycott their shores. If we are resolved we can exert amazing pressure and, whatever else we may know about the French, we most certainly know that they are like a cobweb in a hurricane in the face of well-directed pressure.

Third, send this along to your family, your friends, and your co-workers. Think of all of the people of good conscience that you know and let them know that you - and the people that you care - about need their help.

The number one bestselling book in France is....'September 11: The Frightening Fraud' which argues that no plane ever hit the Pentagon!

Please Pass This On, Let's not let history repeat itself, thank-you for your time and consideration."

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Tim

Excellent commentary on the truly depressing Alistair Crooke.

Truthtriumphs

Foster. Do you know anything, anything at all about Iran?
No? I thought not.
It is a bandit rogue state in every sense of the word.
Why don't you read what the underground resistance movement in Iran has to say about the present regime? (It is called the PMOI).
Iran is a place where they publicly hang young girls for the crime of being raped, publicly stone adulterers, murder gays etc. etc. The barbaric mindset belongs to the 7th century.
You're probably a fanatical Islamist with a very English sounding nom de plume to give your warped views legitimacy.

By the way, Israel deserves to have the ultimate deterrent if only because most of the theoretical physicists in the Manhattan Project were Jews, and whatever their politics, they certainly would be gratified to know that their invention will have prevented another holocaust of the Jewish people.

phil

Foster I have listened to the Regev interview ,the same one you did,you have twisted his words for your own purposes -he actually said they had never denied using white phosphorous but it was never to attack civilians and that also they are investigating all claims,particularly as this info was solely from hamas and never verified .He also said it was never policy to harm innocent civilians but hamas had deliberately hidden and attacked from sites where civilians were situated ,do you agree that a war cannot be carried out if the enemy hide and attack in such a way ? btw Amnesty and HR have condemned hamas for these war crimes ,do you agree?

phil

AN EMAIL I RECEIVED ,MAYBE SOMEONE WILL TAKE NOTICE .

Bad news from France ...REAL BAD! for French Jews...

Once again, the real news in France is conveniently not being reported as it should. To give you an idea of what's going on in that country where there are now between 5 and 6 million Muslims and about 600,000 Jews, here is an E-mail that came from a Jew living in France.

Please read! "Will the world say nothing - again - as it did in Hitler's time?" He writes: "I AM A JEW -- therefore I am forwarding this to everyone on all my e-mail lists. I will not sit back and do nothing. Nowhere have the flames of anti-Semitism burned more furiously than in France. In Lyon, a car was rammed into a synagogue and set on fire. In Montpellier, the Jewish religious center was firebombed; so were synagogues in Strasbourg and Marseilles; so was a Jewish school in Creteil - all recently. A Jewish sports club in Toulouse was attacked with Molotov cocktails and on the statue of Alfred Dreyfus, in Paris, the words 'Dirty Jew' were painted. In Bondy, 15 men beat up members of a Jewish football team with sticks and metal bars. The bus that takes Jewish children to school in Aubervilliers has been attacked three times in the last 14 months. According to the Police, metropolitan Paris has seen 10 to 12 anti-Jewish incidents PER DAY in the past 30 days. Walls in Jewish neighborhoods have been defaced with slogans proclaiming 'Jews to the gas chambers' and 'Death to the Jews.' A gunman opened fire on a kosher butcher's shop (and, of course, the butcher) in Toulouse, France. A Jewish couple in their 20's were beaten up by five men in Villeurbanne, France (the woman was pregnant). A Jewish school was broken into and vandalized in Sarcelles, France. This was just in the past week."

"So I call on you, whether you are a fellow Jew, a friend, or merely a person with the capacity and desire to distinguish decency from depravity, to do - at least - these three simple things:

First, care enough to stay informed. Don't ever let yourself become deluded into thinking that this is not your fight. I remind you of what Pastor Neimoller said in World War II: 'First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.'

Second, boycott France and French products. Only the Arab countries are more toxically anti-Semitic and, unlike them, France exports more than just oil and hatred. So boycott their wines and their perfumes. Boycott their clothes and their foodstuffs. Boycott their movies. Definitely boycott their shores. If we are resolved we can exert amazing pressure and, whatever else we may know about the French, we most certainly know that they are like a cobweb in a hurricane in the face of well-directed pressure.

Third, send this along to your family, your friends, and your co-workers. Think of all of the people of good conscience that you know and let them know that you - and the people that you care - about need their help.

The number one bestselling book in France is....'September 11: The Frightening Fraud' which argues that no plane ever hit the Pentagon!

Please Pass This On, Let's not let history repeat itself, thank-you for your time and consideration."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

____________________________________________________________

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sharon

"Why are so many noted intellectuals always so drawn towards suicidal idiocy and totalitarian ideas?"

Melanie, Melanie!

Just as many intellectual commentators look at the economic implosion and are suddenly remembering Charles Mackay's observation that "men go mad in herds", some of us would observe that the same is true of the jihadist appeasers - and many of them are, apparently, intellectuals.

The evidence is piled up high in front of them in words and deeds and spread across centuries - but it's not the Islamists' fault.

I thought on 7/7: this is it. They'll wake up. We'll be like America and take our border security seriously and kick out any undesirables. And what happened after the latest chapter in this centuries-old volume of jihad? Everyone blamed George Bush - nothing to do with the 'religion of peace'.

At this stage there is nothing anyone can do save catalogue the errors as we go down.

One day all these pseudo-intellectuals will rediscover what Churchill said about Islam the way all these financial fools have just re-discovered what Charles Mackay wrote all those years ago.

Jessica

A very bleak outlook but one which i cant help feel has much truth to it. Ever the optimist, even I am not blind to the dangers facing Israel and the west. Ignorance and noveau liberalism has created a world of haters and a storm is steadily brewing. If only people would wake up to the extremity and urgency of the situation.

Sam Armstrong

Thanks Phil for sharing that shocking email.

I am pleased that the bullying that goes on in France by the Muslim community is finally being exposed.

I lived in Lyon for about a year in the late Nineties, and then briefly in Paris about five years ago. Although France spends lots of money keeping it's city centres looking picture perfect, scratch the surface and you find a hidden underworld that's frankly frightening.

There is a shopping centre in Lyon called 'Part-Dieu' which has been taken over by Arabs, and is virtually a no-go zone. It's located away from the pristine centre, and is thus off the tourist map, but white girls who stray into this area can expect to have hands shoved up their skirts, spat at, abused verbally and, as I was warned, can get assaulted.

Take the RER from the centre of Paris towards the north and east of Paris's suburbs and check out the looks you get if you're white and/or Jewish.

Sadly France is being turned into a hell hole.

Dixon

I wouldnt worry about an arms embargo on Israel. Its true that they import a small number of specialised weapons, such as ground penetrating bombs, but the vast bulk of everything they use is home-made. In both senses. If an embargo affected ammunition supplies, they could easily produce their own..its probably the most basic form of all arms production. even the Taleban have mastered it.

Dont forget that when South Africa was a pariah state it was Israel who armed it and co-developed military technology, including the South African nuclear weapon.

As I have said before, most Israeli equipment is OLD, second or third-hand and some of it has been in use more thanhalf a century.

Meanwhile, the US ABM system is subcontracting to Israeli companies. How would that affect the likelihood of an arms embargo.

That Crooke fellow always strikes me as dubious and aptly named. Basically, people believe him and give him air-time because he talks posh! Its that silly. After all, we dont hear much about David Shayler these days do we...he doesnt talk posh, but also claimed to have been in the secret service.

Frankly, "I was a secret agent" has to be the archetypal clarion call of a crank.

Now for some GOOD news! We can henceforth refer to Lord Ahmed as ...quite literally...that "convicted criminal, Lord ahmed". He has just been sentenced to 12 weeks in jail for texting whilst driving in a trial brought about by the ( we are told, unrelated ) death of a motorist.

Henceforth he shall always and forever be "...convicted criminal Lord Ahmed..." whenever I have to refer to him. Or will he? Perhaps a better one is "...ex-convict Lord ahmed..."!

Louise

Mon Dieu! Methinks that France needs a new Napoleon. Bonaparte gave French Jewry citizenship only when he was satisfied, through a series of questions to their communal leaders, that they did not practise polygamy nor other customs conflicting with modernism. French Jewry, that most patriotic of communities, went on to produce three Jewish prime ministers: the socialist Blum, the conservative R. Mayer, and the radical Mendes-France, not to mention other prime ministers of Jewish extraction. Today, the land that produced the Dreyfus Case -thus prompting Herzl's noble dream - has turned into something the opposite of Belle.

Linda Smith

Phil: .

The French, like all the countries of Europe, have plenty of their own problems with Islamism. Having had plenty of trouble with Islamist Algerians, the French warned us in the 1990's that Britain was creating Londinistan; Britain took no notice.

The Moslem population in France are generally disliked by the rest of the population, live in concrete jungles on the outskirts of the towns, and find it hard to get work.

I expect you will find that as elsewhere in Europe, the violent antisemitic attacks are perpetrated mainly by Moslems and a few other political extremists. Plenty of riots in France, Car burning is a favourite past-time. No point in alienating the rest of the French population, who are as worried as we are about the extremists and the threat of Islamic fundamentalism.

GutClean

leigh @ 6:35 am

Checking your contribution I came across this interesting resource on 'Islam, the Koran and the Jews' @ http://www.hebrewhistory.info/factpapers/fp040_koran.htm
archived for a leisurly browse by me some time on and shared here for those who don't know it.
/
You would seem to be right in your post but note the page just quoted offers some similar passages in the Koran addressing all disbelievers, thus:

"2.191. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief and worshiping of other gods along with Allah] is worse than killing."
/
(Thanks to the poster Jerry his solution for paragraph breaks (if it works for otherwise my post will be very brry - sorry)

Conservative Cabbie

Sam Armstrong

Your description of Part-Dieu was pure racism. A place where Arabs molest white girls - shame on you!

Ben Qurayzah

One would hope that that the powers that be have been giving the enemy enough rope with which to hang himself. I do believe that most seeming dhimmis are, in fact, frothing *****ophobes, albeit ones with no desire for immediate martyrdom. Even seventy years of Marxist cultural evisceration and enemy infiltration matters little. In this day and age, we have no need of mass movements and Churchillian figures, although kudos to Geert the Magnificent. We Kuffars got the tech, y'see? Victory coming soon, brothers and sisters...

Sharon

Phil, yes, it's here. It's real.

Melanie has been saying for years that it is the culture wars that really matter. Once you surrender your ideas for phoney new ones thought up by Marx et al, that's it. The forcefield is down and the haters have the licence they need to get on with the job.

If the Jews make any last stand it will be in Israel. Europe is offering up their throats in the vain hope of saving their own from the Islamists' sword.

My enemy's enemy is my friend - hence a growing number of people's unwilling alliance with the BNP. There is no way of stopping this now in Europe. The state has abandoned the field to Islamist aggression and in Paris they quite literally run riot.

As HG Wells said in his preface to 'The World Set Free': "Every intelligent person in the world felt that disaster was impending and knew no way of averting it."

Sam Armstrong

Conservative Cabbie
February 25th, 2009 1:59pm

Racism? I think not.

Past experience, yes. I challenge you to stroll through Part-Dieu in either a Kippa or a short skirt (whichever is appropriate).

Dixon

Ben Qurayzah
February 25th, 2009 2:13pm
One would hope that that the powers that be have been giving the enemy enough rope with which to hang himself. I do believe that most seeming dhimmis are, in fact, frothing *****ophobes, albeit ones with no desire for immediate martyrdom. Even seventy years of Marxist cultural evisceration and enemy infiltration matters little. In this day and age, we have no need of mass movements and Churchillian figures, although kudos to Geert the Magnificent. We Kuffars got the tech, y'see? Victory coming soon, brothers and sisters..."

unfortunately, our enemies have ALSO got OUR tech...and education in how to use it courtesy of our universities. It is staggering how some academics have the hypocrisy to campaign against the arms trade when theyve been teaching the methodology of the WMD to all comers for decades!

Oh, and they also have OUR laws protecting THEM from US! Nulabour has put into place all the security paraphernalia necessary for the suppression of dissemt by the indiginbous population here. Thats what "terror legislation" is about, protecting the minority from the majority, not, as it at present is spun, visa versa.

That convicted criminal Lord ahmed...when he gets out of jail, becoming that ex-convict Lord ahmed, will be free to carry on with his threats of mass intimidation comfortably protected by "anti terror" laws against any "backlash".

phil

Conservative Cabbie was that comment by you to Sam from an imposter ?it happens here!,,because if his comment was true we should know about it -if it were not of course you would be right ,but SAm normally writes sensibly .

George Laird

Dear All

I like Melanie Phillips articles as they have a touch of comedy about them.

“As Iran sprints towards the nuclear finishing line, the lethal and wicked isolation of Israel in the west is accelerating”.

Didn’t the west recently agree to help Israel? Didn’t Gordon Brown state that UK warships would help stop arms traffic into Gaza?

It must therefore be a hell of a crowded isolation that Israel is suffering!

“Yesterday, Amnesty called for an arms embargo against Israel based on a travesty of a report which accused Israel falsely of crimes it did not commit in Gaza – deliberately targeting civilians – while omitting the crimes Hamas did commit – using civilians as human shields”.

Has Melanie investigated each of the alleged crimes? If so, can she tell the board how she went about it, resources deployed and other persons assisting her to investigate.

I am also disappointed that Melanie should use the weak defence of “civilians as human shields” and omitting crimes committed by Hamas. The; ”he done it too” defence isn’t standing up in any Court of Law or Court of public opinion.

“An arms embargo (of the type apparently favoured by Obama’s foreign policy guru Samantha Power) – would of course remove Israel’s ability to defend itself against an Arab and Muslim world bending every sinew for its destruction. It is therefore tantamount to calling for the destruction of Israel”.

Since when is firing into a crowd of innocent civilians defence?

“Amnesty proposes no total arms embargo on Iran, nor on any of the 22 states of the Arab league. Only on Israel, their designated victim”.

Amnesty is speaking out against Israeli actions therefore no one is buying the “designated victim” status.

“Oh, and on Hamas whose sole crime it says was to have fired rockets at Israel which hardly killed anyone anyway. Thus in its absurd attempt to appear even-handed Amnesty equates the victims of terror with those who would murder them”.

Could Melanie attempt to be impartial, could she explain the difference in the numbers of Israeli dead and Palestinian dead?

“Israel alone of all the countries of the world is not to be allowed to defend itself against annihilation”.

The way that Melanie goes on you would think that Muslim countries are sitting waiting to invade. Those days are over.

“Thus also the truth of the devastating insight of Natan Sharansky who, writing of his experience – straight after last week’s London conference on antisemitism -- at the hands of the BBC which purred over an Arab interviewee blaming Israel for the rise in global Jew-hatred, observes that, as on previous occasions, the Jews of Israel are being faced with this obscene choice”.

I would think that the dislike of Israel is firmly based on the actions of Israel, when you murder innocent women and children,; you will find few supporters.

“Either live and be hated, or die and be loved”.

This reminds of me those trendy Second World War Russian catchphrases to drum up support that isn’t there.

“Scarcely had the new items on Amnesty’s report faded away yesterday than BBC Radio Four’s Start the Week featured Alastair Crooke, the former MI6 agent who now promotes the cause of genocidal Islamists as ‘resistance’ and who was plugging his new book: Resistance: The Essence of the Islamist Revolution”.

First, we had a play and now we have a book, so what?

“I have written repeatedly about the way Crooke promotes the cause of Hamas and Hezbollah and the way he has acted as a conduit between the EU and these terror organisations”.

Are you implying something sinister on the part of Crooke? Is it not totally irresponsible of you to do so?

“His book, of which he has kindly sent me a copy, is a farrago of distortion, omission, recycled conspiracy theory and anti-western loathing, drawing upon such staples of revisionist and anti-western pseudo-scholarship as Karen Armstrong and Edward Said”.

Did you sent it back? As to his views, again can you provide evidence of your investigation into all of his allegations? The; “I don’t think so” is not generally taken to be facts where I come from.

“Thus for example, the Crusades were an attempt by the Church to ‘force a change on history through mass human action’ – no mention of the fact that they were a reaction to the Islamic conquest and colonisation of Jerusalem”.

Campaigns were also directed against pagan Slavs, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, Waldensians, Old Prussians, and political enemies of the popes, why no mention of that by you? Could it be you were short of space?

“Thus the American neo-cons deliberately created a fear of Islamism in order to restructure western society by eradicating liberalism and multiculturalism (I kid you not)”.

Has multiculturalism been eradicated in Britain, not according to Labour; however we are living in a Police state.

“And thus there is no mention whatever of the demented loathing of the Jews -- not just of Israel – which permeates the charter of Hamas and everything they say and do, but instead this”.

Charters can be changed; all that it requires is good will.

“Resistance for Hamas therefore is both an expression of deep-seated human emotions and Islamist principles of justice”.

Melanie, do you believe in justice? Given that there is supposed to be a two state solution, do you support that?

“Some of this book makes no sense by any standard of logic:
Islamist resistance is also about refusal...to allow the complexity of the past to be reassembled by archaeologists who seek to privilege one particular layer of history above others”.

Well that is always the trouble with history, who is writing it.

“But isn’t that precisely what Hamas stands for, privileging Muslim history over that of the Jews (which so inconveniently is validated by archaeology?)”

Isn’t that precisely what Israel stands for, privileged Israeli history?

“Or this demonstrable rubbish from Hamas leader Khaled Mesha’al, who told Crooke
...that there is no problem with Jews either as individuals or collectively as a society. ‘This is not the dispute: the conflict stems from behaviour – from aggressive Zionist behaviour. It is this behaviour that is unacceptable. The question of behaviour however is a political issue between us; it is not theological”.

I would say that is grounds for at least having a conversation, I would say that is grounds for peace talks and getting Hamas to change its charter.

“Dear oh dear”.

Many dears round your way?

“The Hamas charter describes Jews as a cosmic evil who were the hidden hand behind every rotten aspect of modernity; it accuses them in terms of being responsible for the French Revolution, capitalism, communism, sociology, psychology, the League of Nations, Freemasonry, on and on. And quoting the curse from the Koran, it states that Jews must be killed wherever they may be found”.

When was the Koran written? Is it possible that times have moved on?

“The other remarkable thing about this book is that Crooke understands very well indeed the enormous influence upon the foundational Islamist thinkers of such Marxist and nihilist western radicals as Frantz Fanon or Theodor Adorno, Max Horkheimer and the Frankfurt School. These thinkers themselves have played a major role in undermining the west and all its values”.

Haven’t they given us Political Correctness which is used by the Labour Party and others to destroy people’s rights and freedoms?

“But Crooke actually recommends that western radicals should learn from and apply the way in which the Islamists were inspired by these totalitarian thinkers. He is thus not merely promoting the Islamists’ cause in the Middle East; he is urging a totalitarian alliance between western radicals and Islamists, to bring about a revolution in the west and the overturning of its civilisational precepts”.

Yes, during the course of history we have seen one dictatorship replaced by another in the west and it is called democracy to fool people.

“None of this, needless to say, was raised on Start the Week. Instead, host Andrew Marr gave Crooke the most gentle and respectful of hearings for his promotion of genocidal, anti-western jihadi terror outfits on the treasonous basis that the west had lost its way and we’d all better start listening to the superior insights of the Muslim world instead”.

The BBC, the last bastion of free speech unless you want to air a plea for donations to help children in Gaza!

“The nearest Marr came to challenging this thesis was to suggest that the Islamists also had a ‘history of violence’ and that they were not very keen on certain liberal freedoms such as the rights of women or homosexuals”.

Could time and the ability of the presenter be a factor?

“There was not one mention of their murderous hatred of the Jews. Not one”.

I would assume that Marr recognises that not all Muslims hate Jews, why can’t you?

“Instead, another guest on the show, writer Miri Rubin, cooed over this ‘rich book’ and spoke about the Islamists’ ‘trauma in Gaza’. Also taking part in this discussion was the noted Israeli author Amos Oz. And what did Israel’s premier man of letters have to say to this propagandist for those who would murder him and all his fellow Israelis? He was ‘greatly inspired’ by what Crooke was saying; indeed, he suggested that the American neo-cons were the same as the Islamists in that they too wanted to ‘save souls by force’”.

American neo cons aren’t interested in saving anyone except a buck.

“Why are so many noted intellectuals always so drawn towards suicidal idiocy and totalitarian ideas? But help is at hand for the Islamic 'resistance' from the White House. Obama is giving Gaza $900 million which is to be handed to UNRWA to ensure it does not end up in the hands of Hamas. This will ensure that it ends up in the hands of Hamas, due to the fact that nothing moves in Gaza outside Hamas’s control: UNRWA is riddled with Hamas members amongst its workforce, its ambulances and other vehicles are used to transport Hamas weaponry and terrorists, and the camps it administers are Hamas bomb factories. So Hamas will get a $900 million pay-off from America, in order to smuggle yet more weapons with which to kill yet more Israelis”.

I think you should give Obama and his staff a little more credit for being able to think this through. Hamas could just as easily take any vehicle at gunpoint.

“Meanwhile the Islamists’ western European front – aka Britain’s human rights lawyers – are feverishly searching for ways of using international law to persecute Israelis for the crime of defending themselves”.

So, Human Rights Lawyers must be racist, is that what you are saying? Either the claims are true or they are not, are you saying they shouldn’t be investigated?

What were you saying about totalitarian States being bad; does this mean that a totalitarian is okay as long as it is Israel?

“NGO Monitor explains how ‘lawfare’ is being vigorously promoted by Palestinian and other Arab ‘human rights’ activists – who for some unaccountable reason are not taking similar action against Hamas or any of the Arab states which have murdered so many of their own citizens and deprived them of their human rights over the years”.

Could that people that like Israel these people are taking care of their own first?

“Thus the Palestinian NGO al Haq, working through British lawyer Phil Shiner, launched legal proceedings today against three British Cabinet ministers to stop all British aid or assistance to Israel on the false grounds that Israel is gratuitously attacking Palestinian civilians”.

Is it okay for Israel to fire a rocket into innocent civilians in order to kill one guilty man?

“According to NGO Monitor:
Al-Haq's General Director Shawan Jabarin has been denied exit visas by Israel and Jordan on account of his alleged ties to the terrorist group Popular Front for Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). On July 7, 2008, the Israeli Supreme Court upheld the visa denial because it examined reliable evidence that Jabarin is ‘among the senior activists of the Popular Front terrorist organization.’”

I don’t think many people put much stock in Israeli justice.

“Amongst al Haq’s funders are the governments of Ireland, Netherlands, Sweden and Norway and the UK charity Christian Aid”.

“Such legal actions may have little chance of succeeding in court but their purpose is to propagandise, terrorise and demoralise, in which they have significant success”.

Well, if Israelis feel bad about killing innocent Palestinian women and children then it is a start. Maybe they shouldn’t be doing it, just as Hamas shouldn’t be doing it either.

“Thus Israel becomes progressively more isolated by the day, in a process of global delegitimisation”.

Melanie that is the rouble with mass murder; you lose friends very quickly.

“whose diabolical purpose is nothing less than to soften up the western world for genocide”.

Your last piece is so over the top that it is laughable, honestly talk about amateur dramatics.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Linda Smith

George Laird: "Well, if Israelis feel bad about killing innocent Palestinian women and children then it is a start. Maybe they shouldn't be doing it, just as Hamas shouldn't be doing it either."

Your use of the word "should" shows you have no understanding whatsoever of the conflict between Israel and its enemies. Unless you are a jihadist, Israel's enemies are also your enemies.

Your comment "Charters can be changed; all that it requires is good will" is daft.

"Hamas' Charter states 'all Israeli territory is irrevocably Muslim land; Israel must be destroyed; the struggle against the Jews is a religious obligation for every Muslim'.

Although focused locally, Hamas is linked with every other jihadist group and terror-supporting countries, especially Iran.

Jihadists are not attacking "infidels" like Israel and Americans because they want justice, equality, more freedom, higher standards of living - or even land. They are engaged in a religious struggle to annihilate the enemy, 'the other', non-Moslems, their entire societies and cultures.

Jihadists don't represent another culture or civilization. They are a wold-wide movement that includes Al Qaida and the Moslem Brotherhood. Their goal is the destruction of all cultures and civilizations that are different as a prelude to the Caliphate, the End of Days.

Jihadists, therefore, can't compromise, reconcile or accommodate because that would deny their reason to exist. Apocalytic, they yearn for the end of everything - which is why - for thrm - life means nothing.

Jihadism is a form of nihilism, the negation of pluralism and progres, the end of notions of good and evil. Hurtling towards a void in which nothingness is everything, martyrdom and death is the ultimate fulfillment.

This is why negotiations with Hamas are futile; any deviation from their Covenant violates their identity. Concessions are a betrayal of Islam. 'Peace-makers' are traitors.....

.......The Arab-Israeli conflict is not a territorial dispute; every Palestinian leader has said this for the last 70 years and we must believe them."

(Extracted from "Hamas and Jihadism" by Moshe Dann, in American Thinker 25.2. 2009)

Ann

Paul L:
an emphatic yes. They break the law (both in terms of their charter and criminal legsialtion) every day of the week. They are riddled with antisemitism.

AI have been biased against Israel for many years. I have stopped giving to them ... well, from the start, because of their obvious bias. Ditto Oxfam.

I see that the little laird is an expert of what goes on in the ME. Has he ever been there, I wonder? He sounds like the founder of a fifth-form debating society in a failing school, with no members other than himself, foaming at the mouth about 'mass murder' by Israel, a country he hates with pathological passion. And clearly he hasn't heard - or has read but cannot comprehend - about all the lies about 'Israel bombing a school' etc, lies which were thoroughly debunked (but of course, with no apology from the lying BBC about broadcasting them as factual stories).

Ann

"Firstly, Mark Regev has admitted on the record (Today programme) that the IDF used white phosphorus in its recent incursion into Gaza"

As a screen, which is perfectly legitimate. The antisemites are screeching about Israel using it deliberately against civilian - which is an antisemitic blood libel.

"even I can see the grave error of Israel's ways. Politics don't enter into it - Israel is in the wrong."

Err, no, only in the hate-filled delusions of people who know nothing about the ME or - as someone has said - get excited by their Jew-hatred. Israel is 100% right to defend itself against your genocidal friends.

Ann

Terry, good on you!
I do much the same vis-a-vis Oxfam, but will start to do it with AI as well. And the IRC.

Ann

Dixon,
he is the NECC (Never Elected Convicted Criminal) Ahmed.
I wonder whether he will be stripped of his title, as we have been told the government is planning to do ... or is it only Tory peers they are talking about?

phil

George I praised you a little earlier for your kind remarks to DC ,but here if this is your thesis I must report a dismal fail for the most confused one I have ever read -you have copied and pasted us into oblivion -I will offer you another chance

-Give your considered views of how Israel should move on for the next twenty years ,whilst doing this you must bear in mind they want to live !,and as a given there will be a two state solution ,but no right of return for those that left 60 years ago ,even compensation for lost properties (without admission of blame)-A must is a hamas charter guaranteeing Israel's right to exist and recognition by all Arab states ,add your own requirements if you like but do something constructive that will ensure that innocent children on both sides will have a future to look forward to.

No more nasty comments ,just sound common sense that has a chance of working and please sign it George laird -you are losing any impact with your title .

George Laird

Dear Linda Smith

Your argument doesn’t make sense.

The West has signed up for a two state solution.

The Palestinians have signed up for a two State solution

And Israel has signed up for a two State Solution.

So, everyone has signed up.

Therefore given that is the agenda, someone should be going over to Gaza or invite representatives from Hamas for talks.

Are the Israelis waiting for the good weather?

Charters can be changed, if they can be written they can be altered.
The only logical step for peace is that due process and civil government is properly restored in Gaza. This will allow moderate people to enter the political process, the status quo isn’t working.

Times can change!

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

nosmo29

Evidence that Israel will not submit meekly to its potential destruction:
Israeli drone can hit anti-air missile before its activation:-
The Israeli air industries first unveiled its new Harop "loiter drone" for taking out ground-to-air missiles at the annual Aero-India 2009 air show which closed recently at Bangalore.
The Iranian media were first to disclose that this sophisticated Israeli drone is capable of targeting the Russian radar-equipped S-300 anti-air missile before it enters attack mode .
Military sources report that while Iran has contracted to buy from Russia five S-300 batteries worth $800 m to defend its nuclear sites against potential aerial attack, India and Turkey are interested in Israel's Harop killer-drone. The sources report that the Tehran media made much of the new Israeli drone as a means of pushing Moscow to set the new batteries' delivery dates which the Russian suppliers have so far withheld.
The Harop is an upgraded version of the Harpy with more advanced features for taking out radar installations and anti-air missile installations. It can travel 1,000 km to patrol an assigned area and loiter there until a hostile target is exposed. Its 23-kilo warhead then strikes the target before it is activated in attack mode.
The Russian S-300 missile purchased by Tehran is one such target. It is classified in the West as a "game-changer" designed to rule out air attacks on its nuclear sites. This missile system is capable of engaging up to 100 targets at once, tracking targets with a mobile radar station which is immune to jamming.
The Harop is an expendable unmanned aerial vehicle which can sustain a mission of several hours over an assigned area. Operated by electro-optical sensors, Harop can detect weapons systems in inert mode, weapons on the move and radar installations switched off to avoid detection.
Our military experts maintain that once it penetrates Iranian airspace, this drone can silence surface-to-air batteries and open the skies to aerial and missile attack.

Wm Hazlitt

Melanie Phillips as a professional journalist will have read the Amnesty report. Some of you might not yet have had time. The report lists some instances of uses made of weapons in the recent military action in Gaza that contravene international law. It reports who supplied the weapons. It points out that at least one supplier, the US, is required by law to stop supplying weapons to anyone likely to use them in contravention of international law. It calls upon the US and others to stop supplying weapons to those who break the law. In this instance Amnesty thinks that the evidence it provides is sufficient to warrant further investigation specifically of Israel by independent international bodies. Amnesty lists weapons used by both Israel and the Palestinians. The Israeli list comprises the small proportion of the types of weapons in its arsenal that were actually used in Gaza. The Palestinian list is very short and comprises small arms and primitive rockets. Amnesty proposes that measures be taken to ensure that the Palestinians cannot smuggle in any more weapons.

Conservative Cabbie

Sam Armstrong

By explicitly stating that Arabs molest "white girls", you are making a racist statement. I suspect that a large number of the residents of Part-Dieu have no intention of molesting anyone. A person molests another not because of their race or cultural heritage but because they are a sexual predator. I called you on it because I'm concerned at the tone on this blog recently, the debate has degenerated to personal and racial-religious-cultural attacks and no longer seems to be about substance. Phil, whose judgement I respect, has spoken up for you so I'm happy to leave it at that in the hope that you understand my point.

Phil

Yes it was me.

Linda Smith

George Laird, Your statement "So everyone has signed up for a two State Solution is false.

Everyone has NOT signed up for a two State Solution. Hamas, Hezbollah,Syria and Iran for starters have not signed up for a two state solution. Times do not change, as you would have it, for Islamic fundamentalist jihadists.

In order to to be respected by the intellectual community, the "board" as you call it in your posts, you have to be able to argue on correct facts, not highly selected ones and ones you alter to suit your own hypothesis as you constantly do on the Spectator website.

Conservative Cabbie

George Laird

"Since when is firing into a crowd of innocent civilians defence?"

It's not when it's deliberate, but you have no evidence to suggest that it was. In that case, it was an unfortunate piece of collateral damage in an attack designed to prevent Hamas missiles from bombarding Israel. So in that case, their pre-emptive attack was defensive.

"Could Melanie attempt to be impartial, could she explain the difference in the numbers of Israeli dead and Palestinian dead?"

Irrelevant. Motive is more important. Hamas deliberately targeted civilians, the Israeli's did not and thus Israel has moral superiority.

"The way that Melanie goes on you would think that Muslim countries are sitting waiting to invade. Those days are over."

Only because Israel had to take the type of pre-emptive action that they did on this occasion.

Campaigns were also directed against pagan Slavs, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians... and political enemies of the popes, why no mention of that by you? Could it be you were short of space?

Probably because they're not as relevant to a discussion of the middle east.

"however we are living in a Police state"

Well that's something we can agree on.

"Charters can be changed; all that it requires is good will"

Good will by Hamas, something they haven't demonstrated yet.

"Melanie, do you believe in justice"

I'm certain she does. You however, have not shown any respect to any form of justice that I recognise.

"Isn’t that precisely what Israel stands for, privileged Israeli history?"

No Israel stands for self-determination, not possible when under constant attack.

"I would say that is grounds for at least having a conversation"

On whose terms. Bearing in mind that Hamas breached a cease-fire, I'd be somewhat suspicious of trusting them.

"When was the Koran written? Is it possible that times have moved on?"

It doesn't matter when it was written, it only matters that certain muslims treat as sacred those passages which preach violence against non-believers.

"The BBC, the last bastion of free speech"

I like your sense of humour. The only speech allowed on the BBC is that of liberal prescription and there's nothing free about that.

"American neo cons aren’t interested in saving anyone except a buck."

You obviously know nothing about neo-conservatism and it's raison d'etre, the spread of democracy.

"are you saying they shouldn’t be investigated?"

Perhaps the better question should be, who does the investigating?

"Melanie that is the rouble with mass murder; you lose friends very quickly."

That doesn't seem to apply to Hamas though does it? They still seem to have many friends. George Galloway, the U.N. and most on the left.

B. Roozendaal

I cancelled my membership of Amnesty International in 2006, after its despicable report accusing the Israeli Defence Force of war crimes in the Lebanon campaign.
In my cancellation letter I pointed out that Amnesty uses one set of rules in dealing with the Jewish state, and quite another in dealing with the rest of the world.
Were that to apply to individuals, it would amount to antisemitism.
It is about time an international campaign is started to counter the rising tide of Israel-bashing and jew hatred, and expose organisations like Amnesty, the U.N. and its subsidiaries for what they are: bastions and fellow-travellers of the new fascism that stalks the world.

Adam B.

George laird, Hamas has NOT signed up to the two state solution, and has declared itself against any peace talks of any kind.

Please get you facts right.

Carl

Ann, are you claiming then that the IDF used white phosphorus against Gazan civilians by mistake?

They have actually admitted it, even the chief propagandist Regev has done so. Does that make him a self hating Jew? I'm interested how you may deal with this.

Henry Sidgwick

Dear Adam B.
I am not sure what you mean. The head of Shin Bet told the Israeli cabinet in November that Hamas wanted to negotiate a continuation of the ceasefire - to prolong it and to extend it to the West Bank. This surely counts as peace talks of some kind. A Hamas spokesman also repeated on BBC television (I heard him) an offer, that it is reported Hamas has made on several occasions, to negotiate with Israel on the basis of the 1967 borders (and one hopes on the rights of refugees, although I don't know if that was in the offer). Again, this surely counts as an offer of peace talks of a kind. What then are the facts that Mr. Laird is to get right?

Ann

"In my cancellation letter I pointed out that Amnesty uses one set of rules in dealing with the Jewish state, and quite another in dealing with the rest of the world.
Were that to apply to individuals, it would amount to antisemitism."

No - it IS antisemitism, because it is motivated by hating Jews.

"Hamas has made on several occasions, to negotiate with Israel on the basis of the 1967 borders"

NO.
The 'offer' is that Israel would withdraw to the so-called '1967 borders' (there was no such thing, there was an armistice line violated by the Arabs), and THEN Hamas would agree to sit down and discuss further concessions by Israel. Sorry, that is not an 'offer of peace talks' by any stretch of the imagination. It is a demand that Israel capitulate before any talks took place. But I am sure the wee laird will refuse to understand this, living as he does in a Jew-hating la-la land.

Ann

"The BBC, the last bastion of free speech "

ROFLMAO.

"American neo cons aren’t interested in saving anyone except a buck"

LOL. If this ignorant screeching nonsense is what they teach you at university, no wonder that it's such a laughing-stock.

Ann

"The way that Melanie goes on you would think that Muslim countries are sitting waiting to invade. Those days are over"

I do believe the wee laird has never heard of Iran (maybe even of Syria). Quite amazing. What DO they teach at your university, laddie?

Henry Sidgwick

Ann,
What version of the offer by Hamas does your description reflect? There has been some evolution in its thinking from Sheikh Yassin's first "offer" in 1997, through sheik Hassan Yousef in 2004, and Ismail Haniyeh in 2006, to Ahmed Yousef last month.

What Hamas is offering is negotiation. In other words, what they say they want now is unlikely to be what they expect to get. You know how it works: each side sets out an initial position, and then they haggle until they reach a compromise. You would not expect Israel to surrender all its chips before negotiating, so I suppose you would not expect Hamas to surrender what few chips it might have. It would be foolish to trust Hamas, no doubt; but would it not also be foolish also not to try to find out exactly what is on offer. It may be peace (you don't have to like your enemy to make peace).

Dagobert

I often wonder if Israel has told the Arab countries that an all-out attack by them on Israel will lead to Israel obliterating Mecca and Medina. This would strike a blow at the foundations of Islam. It would show that the Meccan moon God, Allah, can't defend his own city.

Dixon

re Nosmo29....in a gist, "air defence" is seldom more than a fig-leaf. For as was often said in the Nineteen thirties, "the bomber will always get through".

In fact, its going to be a lot easier for Israel to shoot down Iranian ballistic missiles with their arrow ABMs than for Iranians to hit IDF bombers flying in an ECM environment close to the ground in broken terrain.

It'll be interesting to see how many Russian "technicians" are killed if it ever comes to pass.

Nehama, UK

Carl said: "Ann, are you claiming then that the IDF used white phosphorus against Gazan civilians by mistake?"

Israel did NOT use white phosphorus against civilians. And Regev did not admit to any such thing, as stated by a number of commenters above, Israel used white phosphorus to light up the conflict zone, and this is totaly permissible in international law. And the Red Cross have acknowledged Israel's usage was within the relevant guidelines. Not that you are the type of person to let a few factual details get in the way of a good old anti-Semitic rant.

Also, do you accuse every Palestinian spokesman of being a propogandist too, or is it a title you save only for Israeli spokesmen?

Adam B.

henry Sidgwick, read article 13 of the Hamas charter. Then find out the definition of a hudna.

You will find:
1. Hamas is founded on the principle that peace talks in any circumstances are anathema to the genocide promoting organization.
2. That the ceasefire extenstion has been called because Hamas has just had a drubbing, and needs to regain its strength during a temporary (not permanent0 ceasefire. This is the concept of a hudna. It is not "peace" in any sense, but merely a postponement of more violence.

Consequently, the premise of Mr Laird's contention is erroneous.

Michael B

steve, re, Germany and technology and weapons exports to Iran, the following:

We know Germany is the largest trading partner in the EU with Iran, representing four billion in exports to Iran, singly comprising 30% to 40% of the EU's exports to that regime at a time when broader sanctions imposed against Iran would serve strategic ends. That's based upon a mid-2008 report. Austria is also a prominent trading partner with Iran. In terms of advanced technology, including dual use technology capable of being used in the field of nuclear weaponry, in a Feb., 2009 report by Benjamin Weinthal and cited by James Joyner, a series of major deals are between Germany and Iran are noted, indicating "[a]ll of this is taking place while Iran is moving at an astonishing pace to process high-grade uranium for its atomic bomb. Iran's launch of its first domestically produced satellite ... prompted an alarmed French Foreign Ministry spokesman Eric Chevallier to underscore the link between Iran's military nuclear capability and its compatibility with the satellite technology." Weinthal further indicates "[t]ransparency is badly needed in this area. The German Federal Office of Economics and Export Control (BAFA) refuses to disclose the nature of these agreements. Economics Minister Michael Glos, who oversees BAFA and is considered an advocate of trade with Iran, should reveal the names of the firms commencing trade with a country that sponsors terror organizations such as Hezbollah and Hamas. The German firms are hiding behind a wall of nondisclosure to avoid being blacklisted on the U.S market."

gary ashton

conservative cabbie- i can't comment on the situation in france where the arabs may or may not rape white girls but over here in australia it happens quite frequently and the motives and justifications are disturbing, as is the way the legal system supports the perpetrators.
'girls like you' is a book by paul sheehan an australian journalist who writes for the sydney morning herald, i'd recommend that people read it and then make an informed decision about how safe they feel.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.
The head of Shin Bet reported to the Israeli cabinet in NOVEMBER last year that Hamas was seeking a continuation of the ceasefire - to prolong it and extend it to the West Bank.

If an enemy whose founding charter forbids it to negotiate offers to negotiate, do you assume that it is bound forever in all its actions by this founding charter and refuse to talk to it, or do you negotiate to see what is on offer. I can imagine the IRA has in some dusty drawer an equivalent of this founding charter.

The premise of Mr. Laird's contention is not erroneous.

Geoff Miller

"....the Crusades were an attempt by the Church to ‘force a change on history through mass human action’ – no mention of the fact that they were a reaction to the Islamic conquest and colonisation of Jerusalem. "

Not to mention the extermination of Christian communities throughout the Levant, North Africa, Spain/Portugal, Mediteranian Islands and the invasions of France (as far as Poitiers), Italy and Switzerland.

Why oh why are the Crusades held up as evil when Christians "tolerated" Islamic violence, cruelty and invasion on a massive scale before resolving to fight back and take the fight to Jerusalem ?

.......and now Worcester is twinning with Gaza.

Great !

phil

george you are usually fast on the trigger where is your answer to my question yesterday ?

phil

foster have you lied and run again?-you are quick with false accusations and very slow to answer your own accusers -but typical of your sort .

Carl

Nehama, you can go on deceiving yourself as long as you like. The fact is Israel did used WP against civilians and lied about it for as long as it could. They acted with disgusting brutality against civilians.

Nehama

No Carl, Israel did not use white phosporus against civilians. I am not deceiving myself, it is a simple fact, verified by an independant international organisation. You are being deceived by Hamas propoganda, and your anti-Semitism is blinding you to the truth.

Louise

nosmo29, many thanks for that post, which gives all of us who love Israel with our hearts and souls cause for optimism.

Carl,I think you're being deliberately perverse. Read what other people have already written about Mark Regev's remarks regarding the use of white phosphorus (better still, listen to his interview again) -you are twisting the admirable and articulate Mr Regev's words.
btw, you do condemn Hamas's genocidally antisemitic Charter - don't you?

Reb Shlomo Silverstein

Geoff Milller asks why the crusaders are held up as being evil. Firstly, when I was at school in England in the 1970s, I was taught that they were saintly heroes. Certainly observant Jews remember the crusaders as evil butchers, who on their way to Jerusalem, slaughtered and massacred many thousands of Jews and decimated entire Jewish communities such as Speyer, Worms and Mayencea and of course, when they arrived in Jerusalem, put the holy Jews of the city to the sword.

On the fast of the 9th Av (around July August time) every year, we sit on the floor and recite Kinos (dirges or laments) to remember all the tragedies that have befallen us throughout the centuries including the Jews who were murdered at the hands of the Crusaders.

Carl

Nehama, how original of you: criticism of israel means that the critic must be either anti-Semitic or a Self hating Jew, taken from the ABC Guide for Zionist Apologists. It is proven beyond any doubt that Israel did use WP against civilians in Gaza, although the Apologists will claim it is because the civilians lived in the wrong place. I can see why you are ashamed of this.

Jon

If anyone is interested in reading Alastair's book or indeed just buying it for a ceremonial burning then it can be ordered at a special price here:

http://www.plutobooks.com/crooke.htm

Augustus

No, quite right, Israel will not submit meekly to its potential destruction. They've been at it for six decades and they are in this for as long as it takes. In an interview with Golda Meir after the Six-Day War she was asked what the secret of the Israeli army was. She replied, "We have nowhere else to go."

Adam B.

Henry Sidgwick, Melanie has covered the false comparison made between the IRA and Hamas. Please read her comments, and then tell me why you disagree.

Hamas offered a continuation, but not a permanent ceasefire. In fact, even now, it continues to fire rockets. Some ceasefire.

Hamas proposes a hudna, which you have not addressed. Indeed, do you know what a hudna is?

Yur view that Hamas seeks peace is not only naive, it is extremely dangerous.

You also haven't commented on article 13. have you read it?

Consequently, Georgie's absurd comments belong in the bin.

Adam B.

carl, "it was proven beyond all doubt..."

Really? Provide the evidence.

You aren't merely a critic of Israel's government, you support Jew hating organizations which are proud to declare their intentions to commit genocide against all Jews.

That's antisemitism, Carl.

Meh

Children, children! As neither a jew, a muslim, and with no particular bias in either direction, it's fairly obvious that Melanie's plodding diatribe is the usual over-egged, fear-inducing nonsense. She thinks the BBC/liberal lefties/rest of the Western world are biased? Perhaps she - and the rest of the angry people on here - should have a good look at their own political leanings once in a while. Israel used WP - it's been admitted by Israel and there's the physical evidence to back it up. I imagine you'd all be screeching about the breach of international law if Hamas had hit Isreal with the stuff. No?

The world is just not as black and white as all you conspiracy-lovers would like to believe. We're just not that well organised.

George Laird

Dear Adam B & Linda Smith

I wrote;

“The Palestinians have signed up for a two State solution”.

You wrote;

“Hamas has NOT signed up to the two state solution, and has declared itself against any peace talks of any kind”.

I never wrote that Hamas did, I was writing about the previous Israeli/ Palestinian agreement.

I am sure that IQ’s haven’t fallen that quickly, have they?

Henry Sidgwick wrote;

“am not sure what you mean. The head of Shin Bet told the Israeli cabinet in November that Hamas wanted to negotiate a continuation of the ceasefire - to prolong it and to extend it to the West Bank. This surely counts as peace talks of some kind. A Hamas spokesman also repeated on BBC television (I heard him) an offer, that it is reported Hamas has made on several occasions, to negotiate with Israel on the basis of the 1967 borders (and one hopes on the rights of refugees, although I don't know if that was in the offer). Again, this surely counts as an offer of peace talks of a kind”.

His comment of; “I heard him” is therefore pertinent.

Hamas is looking for an opportunity to have a permanent solution. This gives the Israelis the opportunity to help foster civil government in Gaza. That means due process, law and order, infrastructure and jobs.

When you have nothing; you have nothing to lose, therefore politics must replace the gun.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Carl

Adam B - change the record. You haven't even got beyond Step One of the ABC Zionist Apologists guide on how to silence anti Israeli criticism.

As to WP, even Regev, propagandist in chief, was finally forced to stop lying and admit that it had been used.

Mind you, I guess in your mind all Arabs are terrorists, so what does it matter?

Louise

Ye gods! Now the cathedral city of Worcester has decided to twin itself with Gaza.
I wonder whether other British cities will follow suit!

Carl, your answer to my question is ... ???

Aby Shishoo

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.
Israeli & Palestinian Children Killed The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports that at least 431 Palestinian children (and no Israeli children) were killed during Israel’s Dec 27, 2008 - Jan 18, 2009 assault on the Gaza strip. This number does not include any killings of Palestinian children in the West Bank, which may have taken place since the beginning of 2009. “The majority of these [Palestinian] children were killed and injured while going about normal daily activities, such as going to school, playing, shopping, or simply being in their homes. Sixty-four percent of children killed during the first six months of 2003 died as a result of Israeli air and ground attacks, or from indiscriminate fire from Israeli soldiers.” - Catherine Cook Israelis and Palestinians Killed
The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports that at least 1,440 Palestinians were killed during the Israel’s assault on the Gaza strip, between December 27, 2008 and February 5, 2009. The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs reports that 5 Israeli soldiers and 4 civilians were killed by Palestinians between December 27, 2008 and January 18, 2009, and 1 soldier was killed on January 27, 2009. The numbers do not include the sizable number of Palestinians who died as a result of inability to reach medical care due to Israeli road closures, curfews, the Israeli closure of border crossing from Gaza, etc. Israelis and Palestinians Injured in current violence. The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports that approximately 5,380 Palestinians were injured in Israel’s assault on Gaza from Dec 27, 2008 - Jan 18, 2009. (This does not include Palestinians injured in the West Bank during this time.) Approximately 523 Israelis were injured during the same period. Daily U.S. Taxes to Israel & thePalestinians. The source for US aid to Israel during Fiscal Year 2007 is the Congressional Research Service’s “U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel,” written by Jeremy M. Sharp, Specialist in Middle Eastern Affairs, updated January 2, 2008. According to this report, the US gave Israel at least $2,500.2 million in 2007. This number does not include the $137.894 million spent on joint U.S.-Israeli missile defense projects or the $1.4 billion in loan guarantees made available to Israel in 2007. Military aid to Israel has reached $3.1 billion each year (or an average of $8.49 million a day). Thus, U.S. tax dollars are subsidizing one of the most powerful foreign militaries. According to the CRS report, current U.S. military aid, “grants to Israel represent over 20% of the overall Israeli defense budget.” United States has given more money to Israel than to any other country. The Congressional Research Service’s conservative estimate of total cumulative US aid to Israel (not adjusted for inflation) from 1949 through 2007 is $101.1908 billion. The US has provided $50 million for the U.S. Agency for International Development’s West Bank and Gaza programmme, as well as $77 million directly to the Palestinian Authority.

UN Resolutions Targeting Israel and the Palestinians
Aside from the core issues—refugees, Jerusalem, borders—the major themes reflected in U.N. resolutions against Israel over the years are its unlawful attacks on its neighbours; its violations of the human rights of the Palestinians, including deportations, demolitions of homes and other collective punishments; its confiscation of Palestinian land; its establishment of illegal settlements; and its refusal to abide by the U.N. Charter and the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. From 1955 through 1992, Israel has been the target of 65 UN Resolutions and the Palestinians are the targets of none.
Current Number of Political Prisoners and Detainees One Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. Since the beginning of the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories in 1967, over 650,000 Palestinians have been detained by Israel. This forms approximately 20% of the total Palestinian population in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT).
Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes
0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 18,147 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.
Current Illegal Settlements on the Other’s Land
Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land.
Current Israeli and Palestinian Unemployment Rates
The Israeli unemployment rate is 7.3%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 23%.

phil

George Laird did I offend you by writing something nice about you ?you have not responded to my very reasonable question included with it -it did give you the chance to propose constructive suggestions for the future and you have ignored it -why?
here it is again .lets hear from you ----------------------------Give your considered views of how Israel should move on for the next twenty years ,whilst doing this you must bear in mind they want to live !,and as a given there will be a two state solution ,but no right of return for those that left 60 years ago ,even compensation for lost properties (without admission of blame)-A must is a hamas charter guaranteeing Israel's right to exist and recognition by all Arab states ,add your own requirements if you like but do something constructive that will ensure that innocent children on both sides will have a future to look forward to.

No more nasty comments ,just sound common sense that has a chance of working and please sign it George laird -you are losing any impact with your title .

phil

Aby Shishoo-did you actually have a point to make with all those statistics ?even if they are to be believed and is somewhere in that mass of info a number for the Israelis killed by terrorists ?

Richard Pearce

While Iran sprints towards the nuclear finish line, it should be noted that Israel already has it's nuclear facilities in Soreq and Dimona and that despite it's nuclear opacity, Israel is currently regarded as the only nuclear power in the Middle East.

Germany has trade agreements with many countries, lets not forget the 5 submarines it has supplied to Israel which are capable of launching nuclear missiles; facilitating the Israeli "Sampson Option" if all else fails. Even in nuclear war, it appears that Israel is prepared to attack indiscriminately as it's last form of "defence". I'm sure that the whole world will agree that causing global conflagration in the name of "defence" is of course acceptable.

Iran is one of 190 states that have signed the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. Israel, I note, have not. For Israel though, the "nuclear question" is not a global problem, but merely one that is limited to their underdog status as the only democracy in the Middle East.

The International Atomic Energy Agency knows that Russia has supplied low-grade uranium to Iran, in fact, during a recent inspection in Iran the IAEA found that Iran had more low-grade uranium than it believed Iran actually had. Does the IAEA have any idea how much low/high-grade uranium or plutonium Israel has in it's possession? Given that the people of Israel aren't even allowed to know what their nuclear scientists at Dimona are paid, let alone what they are producing, I doubt it.

No sane person wants to see Iran in possession of nuclear weapons, but that should not preclude them from seeking to use nuclear technology for domestic purposes.

Neil Craig

This is the same Amnesty that piblicised every KLA propaganda story told against Yugoslavia & never apolgised when, after 3 months of NATO bombing they all turned out to be either proven lies or lacking any evidence. Nor have they called for an embargo of the NATO countries (granted difficult to enforce) for using depleted uranium & cluster bombs against civilians let alone for the obscene allowance of NATO employed KLA "police" to kidnap 1300 of Serb civilians, cut them open while still alive & sell the body parts across Europe. There are absloutely no circumstances in which politicians & organisations which support that can ever criticise Israel.

Adam B.

Carl
1. You provide no evidence that I "think all Arabs are terrorists" despite my invitation that you find one instance where I have said such a thing. This is simply lazy and intellectually impoverished thinking. If I did think that, it would mean I would hate the brave Bedouin who serve with distinction in the IDF (as well as the Druse Muslims, who are loyal and brave and also volunteer for service in the IDF).
2. You provide no evidence for your contention that WP was used against civilians - as opposed to being used legally on the battlefield.
3. You have not responded to my question, nor Linda's.

A scpetic may even believe you don't have the answer!

Adam B.

Geoff Miller, I'm surprised by your post, and your defence of the antisemitism of the Middle Ages. These pogroms and killings were not motivated by any rational reasoning, and it is wrong to claim that they were. In addition, we did not fight WWII to save the Jews.

Adam B.

George laird, you said the following:
"So, everyone has signed up.
Therefore given that is the agenda, someone should be going over to Gaza or invite representatives from Hamas for talks"

No George, NOT everyone has signed up, Hamas hasn't. You then make the leap that because Fatah has signed up (in a rather unclear way) this means that Israel should talk to Hamas. What's the connection? Fatah doesn't speak for Hamas. You post simply makes no sense.

Have you read article 13 of the Hamas charter? Do you think it's a joke?

LYM

I know of someone whose son is in the IDF and was involved in the recent trouble. He and his fellow soldiers went from building to building with the specific purpose of getting Hamas members only. It is a fact that mosques, schools and hospitals were booby-trapped by Hamas.

Did Britain fight the Nazis from building to building in Germany? Or did they just flatten cities? I don't remember anyone boycotting us for our 'disproportionate' use of force. The fact is, Israel is unfairly held to a different standard than the rest of the world.

Nehama, UK

Actually Carl, I know you think you've got the perfect "when did you stop beating your wife?" type question... damned whichever way you answer, but the fact is a quick review of the historical record shows your assertions to be wrong - so you fool no one but yourself.

Linda Smith

Aby Shishoo: You say "The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world's major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict and increasingly imperiled by its devastation."

You then reel off a mass of facts and statistics but omit the key facts:

The Jewish State of Israel was given the right to exist by UN Resolution 181 of 29 November 1947 partitioning the British mandate of Palestine. The so called "Palestinians" are the authors of their own misfortune. They were given their own state under the same Resolution. They refused it and declared war. They have been at war with Israel ever since.

Israel is a sovereign state and has the right to protect itself from its Islamofascist enemies who refuse to recognise its right to exist and whose Charter is genocidal. If Israel withdraws from the West Bank Islamofascist Hamas will take control from Fatah by force as it did in Gaza.

America is looking to its own interests by supporting Israel. America is sending more troops to Afghanistan; it's all part of the same war against Islamofascism.

The Americans dropped 2 nuclear bombs on Japan to stop Japanese aggression in World War 2. That devastation did not imperil the Americans. It stopped the Japanese.

Linda Smith

George Miller: "Maybe we Westerners should never have gotten mixed up in the Middle East (let alone fighting against Hitler's project...."

Westerners did not "fight against Hitlers "project" to save Jews. Westerners fought to save themselves from Nazi domination.

St Bruno

I don’t know any Palestinians personally but I suppose I know of them by their actions. I was in Kuwait in 1991 touring the streets in Kuwait City escorted by an Arab resident. We came to a roadblock with armed soldiers searching vehicles. Don’t worry said my resident you are all right and added that the soldiers are looking for Palestinians, the troublemakers.

Today, I like to believe that not all Palestinians are troublemakers but it seems all troublemakers are Palestinians and as all Palestinians are Muslim it can also be said that they are troublemakers willing to vent their anger at any perceived disrespect or grab any opportunity to enrich themselves at the expense of others.

I support Israel in its fight against oppression at the hands of Islam. The demise of the state of Israel would be one more nail in the coffin of Europe that started in recent times with the takeover of Kosovo, and if Turkey gained entry to the EU, I really fear for our future.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.
I take it then that your answer is, No, you would not negotiate. This is more absolute even than Ehud Olmert's outgoing government who are even now in negotiations with Hamas. (Indeed, Hamas has even accepted an intermediary that does not have its interests at heart i.e. Egypt.)

If negotiation is impossible, how do you see the conflict being resolved? This is not a rhetorical question. I am genuinely interested in your answer.

Adam B.

Henry, you are quite right, I wouldn't negotiate with organizations which advocate the extermination of every Jew on earth, and acts to kill as many Jews as it can. Hamas has made it repeatedly clear that peace talks are anathema to them, and that they will never accept Jewish people on earth, let alone a Jewish state as their neighbour.

The conflict will be resolved when the tyrannical regimes and terror organizations of the Middle East accept the concept of a non-Islamic nation living amongst them in peace. Without this, peace will always be elusive. Peace between Israel and Egypt and Jordan exists because those countries gave up on the idea of annihilating Israel. The rest of Israel's neighbours need to do the same.

Kenneth Chan

I hope Melanie never stops flying the flag, or at least making noise. It's the very truth and accuracy of her observations that make her so offensive to so many.
Good to see she mentions Edward Said and Karen Armstrong, since these two are good examples of the authors of much of the misquided orientalist/pro-Islamist muck that the progressive intelligentsia have forced into the minds of the normal, decent people of the UK.
Anti-Israel attitude has become de rigeur, and anyone who might, God forbid, speak out on behalf of the media-demonized Isrealis and voice rightful criticism of the never ending barrage of pro-Islamist propaganda it spews out is condemned as a racist, bigot, or some such. Which basically goes to show how terrified of the truth the media and indeed the policy makers surely are.
For what it's worth, I believe academia, being dominated by middle-class trendies pedalling half-baked universalist, Benetton advert, cuckooland claptrap have a lot -an awful lot - to answer for. Armstrong is beloved of such people, and nobody in academia dare speak out on any matter concerning race without qualifying it within the oh-so-fashionable and convenient get-out clause that is "cultural relativism". Afraid, oh how we're all so afraid of a terrible truth that is staring is straight in the face.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.
Two questions:

Why do you take a position on negotiation with Hamas more intransigent that that of the Olmert government?

What would Israel bring to the table once it was persuaded that everyone accepted its presence in the region?

phil

for those wondering what AdamB ,s reply to geoff miller was, Pete has taken down millers post as it was simply hateful and got through by mistake .

Richard Pearce

In regards to evidence that Israel used white phosphorous on civilian areas, you can view some photographic evidence at this website.

The pictures were taken at the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) Elementary School for Boys and Girls in Beit Lahia, one of 221 schools that the UN operates in Gaza.

If you bother to look at the pictures, you will see that that is a basketball hoop in a playground where the white phosphorous has landed. You will also see the UN ambulance and the UN staff attempting to extinguish the white phosphorus flares.

The UN have published a video regarding the reopening of the school which can be seen at this website. I do not speak Arabic but fortunately there is a translation of what the children are saying in the section below the video. If you don't bother to view the video or read the text, here are a few quotes;

"We fled the shelling of the school and went to my uncle's home".
"I dream of the rockets, how they are shelling us".
"My cousin was washing the dishes. A bullet from a helicopter hit her head. It sounded like something blew up inside her head. She fell down on the floor".
"Because I saw the children cut into pieces. I became afraid to go down from the house".
"We were very afraid. Kids always get scared in the war".

I understand that Israel must defend herself against the terrorist attacks by Hamas, however, I do not condone the illegal use of military weapons on innocent civilians. Palestinian children are not Hamas terrorists.

Adam B.

Henry, my view is not "intransigent" as you claim. It is realistic. I would ask you how peace would ever flourish when one side wants (and acts) to annihilate the other. Is that really so difficult to understand?

I do not speak for Olmert's government (I am happy to see the back of it), so I don't understand why you keep referring me to it.

To repond to your other question, I would ask you this: what will the tyrannical nations surrounding Israel and terror organizations bring to the table? Why do you believe that only Israel will benefit from peace - wouldn't peace benefit all sides?

Adam B.

Henry - just to add, your question is academic anyway, as there is no sign at all that Hamas, Hizbollah, Syria or Iran would ever consider accepting Israel. Instead of talking hypotheticals, I prefer to live with realities.

Richard Pearce

Linda.

The Americans did not drop 2 nuclear bombs on Japan to stop Japanese aggression in World War 2.

The Japanese surrender was already being negotiated at the time and it was widely believed that it would be accepted by the Japanese as long as the office of Emperor was allowed to remain. The US Administration delayed the negotiations for reasons that only they know.

I suggest that you do some research on the matter. The Franck Report of 11th June 1945 would be a good start. You can find it at this web site.

Unfortunately, the Franck Report was ignored, and the United States of America went ahead and detonated Little Boy above Hiroshima on 6th August 1945; the explosion killed up to 90,000 people in an instant and an estimated 140,000 by the end of the year. Three days later, the Americans detonated Fat Man above Nagasaki, killing up to 40,000 people in an instant and an estimated 74,000 by the end of the year. It is estimated that 95 percent of the people killed were civilians. Nobody will know what the final death toll caused by this heinous act actually was, but 400,000 to half a million dead would not be far from the truth, even today, innocent people are still affected by the long term effects of the radiation that was released.

On 15th August 1945, Emperor Hirohito of Japan announced on the radio that Japan had lost the war. The Emperor's announcement is hard to understand because he speaks in archaic court Japanese, but one thing he said is understood as follows; "Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to damage is indeed incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives."

I understand that the Americans were at war, and I appreciate that the huge loss of life associated with a ground assault on Japan would be unacceptable to the US Administration (and the American public). However, I don't believe that dropping nuclear weapons on an area that is mainly populated by civilians, and incinerating those innocent people, was the correct approach in bringing an early closure to the conflict. I also believe that although the war came to an abrupt end, this miscalculated decision to use these weapons of mass destruction in combat for the first time did imperil the Americans and ultimately it made the world a much more dangerous place to be.

phil

Richard Pearce---"Palestinian children are not Hamas terrorists." ---you are 100-percent correct ,and the evil hamas should not be doing their work anywhere near them .This war obviously had to take place ,and hamas had huge amounts of warnings -they did it deliberately to bring opprobrium upon the Israelis and that they have done at a terrible cost to their innocents .

Richard Pearce

Phil.

You too are 100% correct when you state that the evil Hamas should not be doing their work anywhere near them, however, I do not see any masked terrorists with bombs, rockets or guns running around in the pictures of that school playground whilst it is being attacked. I also doubt very much that the UN would sanction the use of one of it's schools as a Hamas terrorist training camp, bomb making or weapons storage facility.

Phil in Canada

Brilliant, as usual, Melanie. Here is a thought: Perhaps Israel will be better off without the 'help' of Western powers? Maybe then she can actually defend herself; and better yet take the war to her enemies.
As for Cooke... what a (literal) shame. He has is fast transforming into the 'Lord Haw Haw' of our age.
It has long been a strategy of the Islamists to put a wedge between the Christian and Jewish communities. Isolating and one group, and when possible putting one in power over the other - just to reinforce resentment and xenophobia.
Think: Andalusia and the pogroms that followed - a tactic Hitler would have richly enjoyed, I am sure.
What we see today is far more refined, and as you point out 'influenced' by modern totalitarianism rather than medieval despotism. Cooke is playing into the hands of this 'chic' Jew Hatred.
Thanks for standing watch, Melanie. You are very much appreciated here and your writing has done much to increase a Jewish and Christian fellowship in the face of a threat, at least in these parts.
May the God of Abraham and Moses Bless you and keep you and yours safe.

phil

Richard Pearce-they were there but hiding ,and the UN has admitted the school was not hit -many of those poor children were killed by hamas booby traps too -Richard every one, was one too many and I along with all real Jews mourn them -Please G-d -he will rid this world of hamas and all those that think like them ,the children of both sides deserve a future without fear .

phil

Phil in Canada -maybe our name has something to do with kindness and compassion as opposed to the haters who come here -your post brought a tear to my eye and I reciprocate your good wishes .

Usama Hasan

>> And quoting the curse from the Koran, it states that Jews must be killed wherever they may be found.

At best, this is pure ignorance; at worst, a malevolent lie.

Adam B.

It is even quoted in the Hamas charter Usama Hasan. Not a lie - you just can't cope with the truth.

phil

Usama Hasan please enlighten us ,what does it mean ?

Augustus

This week Iran's first nuclear reactor was tested. It was built with the help of the Russian federation and will be in full working order by the end of this year. The IAEA produced a report earlier this month about Iran's nuclear programme. According to the report, Iran has over 5,600 centrifuges 4,000 of which are already active converting uranium into nuclear energy. The IAEA also reported that Iran has enriched more uranium than was hitherto expected. It now possesses over 1,010 kilograms of low-enriched uranium. If all of this were to be fully enriched it would be sufficient to produce an atomic bomb. The director of Iran's nuclear programme said this week that their goal is 50,000 centrifuges. This would be enough for a complete nuclear arsenal.

Unlike in the land of 'hope and change', Obama country, Israel can't rest easy with these facts, and it is understandable that Israel finds the position quite terrifying. If President Obama intends to give in to Iran too much Israel will have to act alone. Nobody knows exactly how, or if Obama, unlike his predecessors, would be able to influence Israel's decision. Personally, I think its extremely dangerous to allow such a barbaric regime, with such barbaric punishments as stoning and hanging people, the capacity to wage nuclear war. Are these bearded ones so trustworthy that we can actually
negotiate peace with them?

Linda Smith

Richard Pearce You imply in your 2 posts of 27 Feb 2:13 that the Americans unnecessarily imperiled the world by dropping 2 atom bombs on Japan in 1945 killing civilians, as the Japanese were going to surrender anyway - just needed a bit more negotiation - the same sort of argument that people make about Israel and Hamas and Israel's attack on Gaza.

There are interesting parallels:

The Japanese were fascist allies of Nazi Germany. Japan's barbarous, cruel and vicious behaviour towards the "enemy" both military and civilian is well known and documented.
Hamas are genocidal Islamofascists (see their Charter), Iran's proxy, allied with other global Islamofascist groups.

The Japanese military did not want to make peace. Nor does Hamas.

The Japanese fought tenaciously, showing they would not surrender but would fight till the last civilian, let alone soldier. The allies were worried about the high level of casualties from Kamikasi suicide bombers.

At the Battle of Okinawa in 1945, the Japananese had lost over 100,000 troops, and the Allies more than 50,000 casualties with over 12,000 killed in action. Hundreds of thousands of civilians were killed, wounded or attempted suicide. The suicides were under Japanese order. Approximately one-fourth of the civilian population died due to the invasion.

An initial allied invasion of Kyushu was set to commence in October 1945. A second invasion of the main Japanese island of Honshu was scheduled for March 1946.

The Atom bombs caused the Japanese to surrender, preventing further massive casualties on both sides in the planned invasion of Japan.

The fascist Japanese were the authors of their own misfortune, The Arabs refused to accept their own State that was given to them under the UN Resolution 181 of 29 November 1947 Partion Plan and instead chose to declare war. The Arabs ("Palestinians") in Gaza elected Hamas, genocidal islamofacists; thus they are also the authors of their own misfortune.

It is the fascists who imperil the world and make it a much more dangernous place to be, not the actions of the Americans and the Israelis. It is the useful idiots like you who invert the truth who imperil the free world.

Richard Pearce

Phil.
I hope and pray that this conflict can be resolved. Every man, woman and child in that region, be they Jewish or Arab, has the right to self-determination and the right to live in peace.

Richard Pearce

Linda.
As a useful idiot who inverts the truth I would like to point out that the American use of the Atom bomb started a global arms race and that during the Cold War the world was indeed imperiled.

Clearly you did not bother to read the Franck Report and you would probably not bother to read anything else I suggest. In an effort to convince you of the feeling within the US military establishment, here is the text of a memorandum sent on 27th June 1945 from Ralph Bard (Undersecretary of the Navy) to Henry Stimson (Secretary of War); "MEMORANDUM ON THE USE OF S-1 BOMB:

Ever since I have been in touch with this program I have had a feeling that before the bomb is actually used against Japan that Japan should have some preliminary warning for say two or three days in advance of use. The position of the United States as a great humanitarian nation and the fair play attitude of our people generally is responsible in the main for this feeling.

During recent weeks I have also had the feeling very definitely that the Japanese government may be searching for some opportunity which they could use as a medium of surrender. Following the three-power conference emissaries from this country could contact representatives from Japan somewhere on the China Coast and make representations with regard to Russia's position and at the same time give them some information regarding the proposed use of atomic power, together with whatever assurances the President might care to make with regard to the Emperor of Japan and the treatment of the Japanese nation following unconditional surrender. It seems quite possible to me that this presents the opportunity which the Japanese are looking for.

I don't see that we have anything in particular to lose in following such a program. The stakes are so tremendous that it is my opinion very real consideration should be given to some plan of this kind. I do not believe under present circumstances existing that there is anyone in this country whose evaluation of the chances of the success of such a program is worth a great deal. The only way to find out is to try it out."

I would also like to point out that Japan, after suffering defeat after defeat and after the strategic bombing that destroyed Japanese industry, was staring defeat in the face. It did not have the resources to support it's war effort and with the Russian invasion of Manchuria on the 10th August 1945 there would be no choice for the Japanese War Council but accept the Potsdam Declaration.

I have nothing but contempt for your rationalisation that "The Atom bombs caused the Japanese to surrender, preventing further massive casualties on both sides in the planned invasion of Japan". If you believe that incinerating 130,000 human beings in an instant (and lets not forget that 95% of those people were innocent civilians) is acceptable, then I can only regard you as barbarous as the fascists that you loath so much.

phil

Richard Pearce -I do not want to get into the moral dispute you have with Linda ""The Atom bombs caused the Japanese to surrender, preventing further massive casualties on both sides in the planned invasion of Japan",-but you are arguing against all accepted facts. The Japanese government would not have surrendered as was demonstrated ,nor would the people, who you can see in the newsreels of the fight on Okinawa -,they were jumping off cliffs and pushed too by soldiers who would have shot them, rather than surrender. .The battles on Iwo Jima and for mount Suribashi ably demonstrate their unwillingness to give an inch ,you will have seen the Kamikaze newsreels too.-

You can even hear the broadcast by the Emperor,everything will show you why the bomb ended the war and saved many hundreds of thousands of lives -at a terrible cost I know .SADLY IT WAS THE DUTY OF THE ALLIES TO SAVE THE LIVES OF ITS SOLDIERS -YES THOSE THAT HAD NOT STARTED THE WAR .You can read all the reports you wish from anyone you like but they will not change the position that the war had to be ended and kind words were never going to do that -The Japanese were hijacked by a set of evil men just as the Palestinians have been now and until they have been neutralised nothing will change .--

If your position is one of compassion you will know I admire that but sometimes common sense and pragmatism must prevail -perhaps you will give your views on the potential torture of one man to save the lives of many thousands -a terrible dilemma ?

Nasser Kurdy

Dear Melanie

Why do you insist to close your eyes to clear violations of human rights by Israelis? Why have you turned a blind eye to the graffiti by Israeli soldiers saying "gas the Arabs"? Why have you turned a blind eye to videos and pictures showing atrocities by Israeli soldiers such as the shooting of an un-armed Palestinian demonstrator who has been blind folded and then shot at close range (3 feet) by an Israeli soldier in his leg using a high powerful rifle? Why have you turned a blind eye to Israeli parents teaching their young ones how to use automatic rifles, and signing missiles to be launched by their army? These videos and pictures are now out there in the public domain. Why have you turned a blind eye to all the independent reports that have recently demonstrated as to what has really happened in Gaza?
Why should you do that? If you want to be a voice of honesty to be heard, you need to open both eyes and be honest. Your impartiality only goes to show that you have a one sided view and that you do not speak for honesty and truth, you only speak for Israelis and not for humanity In general.
It is shameful that for someone who has such an opening in the public media that they should show such a blatant bias against the humanity of Palestinians.

Linda Smith

Richard Pearce: Although in your opinion the Japanese were on the point of surrendering after "suffering defeat after defeat", you are wrong. Surrender was not in the Japanese military mindset. The Japanese preferred to die to save their "face".

The Americans knew from Signals Intelligence that the Japanese had identified Kyushu as a likely invasion site. A Study of Signals Intelligence "The Final Months of the War With Japan", is available on the CIA website and I give a few brief quotes here.. What if arguments "can be narrowed to the specific issue of the impact of signals intelligence, and for that there is an empirical base."

"By the first week in August, the estimated total of Japanese Army and naval ground combat troops on Kyushu was more than six times what it had been on Okinawa. Intercepted communications had been showing Japanese preparations to employ the same kinds of suicide attacks and other unconventional tactics and devices that had caused so many casualties in the Okinawa operation." The initial US estimate of casualties in capturing Kyushu was 105,000-106,000.

Japanese documentation obtained postwar shows 14 Japanese combat divisions on Kyushu and that intercepted communications had identified all of them; 900,000 japanese soldiers were assigned to Kyushu's defence, against the 600,000 the US had estimated.

Perhaps, Richard, you would have preferred the Americans to have sacrificed themselves to save the enemy?

Your demonisation of the US for nuclear proliferation based on their bombing of Japan is false. Other countries would have got them anyway. The US was able to use nuclear weapons to end the war in Japan in 1945 without fear of nuclear retaliation because they were ahead of the game. Why do you doubt that any other country would have done the same in their position. I quote from your favourite publication "The Franck Report":

"Prospectives of Armaments Race: ...even if we can retain our leadership in basic knowledge of nucleonics for a certain time by maintaining the secrecy of all results achieved on this and associated projects, it would be foolish to hope that this can protect us for more than a few years...Nuclear bombs cannot possibly remain a "secret weapon" at the exclusive disposal of this country, for more than a few years. The scientific facts on which their construction is based are well known to scientists of other countries."

In your post to Phil about the Middle East you say "Every man, woman and child in that region, be they Jewish or Arab, has the right to self determination and the right to live in peace." Unfortunately that is not a view shared by Islamists, who, like the Japanese, prefer death to surrender.

phil

Nasser Kurdy if what you say is correct you need to send Melanie details of any atrocities ,providing always they are not forgeries by hamas and others like them -in war there are always isolated incidents of atrocious behaviour by small numbers of people but it is when it is the States intention to perpetrate these atrocities that it is time for real concern -I am sure it is neither in the Jewish psyche nor the Israelis to behave like that -if you are being sincere here you will know that it is always the intention of hamas to perpetrate atrocities both on the Jews ,Israelis and Palestinians and you have made no mention of this ,nor have you provided authentication for your concerns .

Richard Pearce

Linda.
I do not dispute the fact that the Japanese surrendered on 15th August 1945. I also do not dispute the fact that the Japanese surrender occurred after the Americans had dropped not one, but two Atomic bombs on the urban areas of the Japanese cities of Hiroshima (6th August 1945) and Nagasaki (9th August 1945). I also do not dispute the fact that the Japanese surrender was preceded by the formal declaration of war by Russia against Japan (8th August 1945) and the Russian invasion of Manchuria (10th August 1945) using a force of 1.5 million men.

I am aware of the inefficient intelligence that was used in the planning of Operation Olympic and I do not dispute your assertion that a ground assault on Kyushu would have resulted in the deaths of many more US personnel than were predicted in that military plan.

I have no doubt that there are other people, who, like you, believe that the American use of Atomic bombs in the civilian areas of two Japanese cities brought about the end of the war with Japan and that by taking that action, saved hundreds of thousands of American lives. I am sure that there are people who believe that the Russian invasion of Manchuria brought about the end of the war with Japan. I am also sure that there are people who believe that is was a combination of both these actions which brought the conflict to its conclusion.

There are also other people, who, like me, believe that the war with Japan could have been ended without the use of Atomic weapons. There is Gar Alperovitz, Lionel R. Bauman Professor of Political Economy at the University of Maryland, College Park Department of Government and Politics who wrote the book The Decision To Use the Atomic Bomb and the article Hiroshima: Historians Reassess which may be of interest to you. And there is Peter Kuznick, Associate Professor of History and Director of the Nuclear Studies Institute at American University who wrote the atricle The Decision to Risk the Future: Harry Truman, the Atomic Bomb and the Apocalyptic Narrative which may also be of interest to you.

I am glad that you have read The Franck Report; it is one of many documents that I have read on this subject. Unfortunately, your quotes from two separate sections of a rather detailed report are not representative of the whole content of the report, and they do not in my opinion, give credence to your justification of the US Administration's unannounced use of Atomic weapons of mass destruction.

Richard Pearce

Phil.
I agree that common sense and pragmatism should prevail when considering available facts, however, I believe that I have the right to express an opinion based on facts. I also understand that if not all facts are considered (or if they are dismissed as not being fact), that different people may come to separate conclusions regarding an event based on what they know (or indeed think they know).

In regards to torture, I do not believe that it's use can be justified in any way; be it the torture of one man to save the lives of many thousands or indeed the torture of many thousands to facilitate the end of a war.

phil

RICHARD PEARCE-I do not condone torture either ,but your quote----"In regards to torture, I do not believe that it's use can be justified in any way; be it the torture of one man to save the lives of many thousands or indeed the torture of many thousands to facilitate the end of a war." -------

I find it very hard to see how pragmatic that is as regards to "one man"---My early religious teachings were that the most important thing one could do was to save the life of a person and that one could break the Sabbath without committing a sin to do so -years have past now and I am not religious at all but those thoughts remain very vivid in my mind .So I must ask you, would you not have tortured one man (not mutilated) to save the lives of all those in the twin towers and airplanes ?--------

I can see you are a person that cares and I respect that, but sometimes pragmatism must prevail or can I call it common sense without offending .

Linda Smith

Richard Pearce:
I read the articles you posted. They are written with an agenda, The Signals Intelligence shows that rather than surrender, the Japanese were gearing up to defend an American invasion, In your post you falsely assert that the US gave no warning of their intention to drop the atom bombs. The US army dropped leaflets printed in English and Japanese giving warning of the dropping of the atom bombs. You can read about it on the CIA website: "The Information War in the Pacific 1945". Unfortunately I don't know how to give you the direct link for you to click on.

Despite the nuclear bombs, the military still refused to surrender. On 14 August the military sent soldiers to attack the Imperial Palace to get the recordings the Emperor had made in order to stop him broadcasting his surrender the next day. They failed.

In your posting to Phil, you said you do not believe in torture be it the torture of one man to save the lives of many thousands..." The logical consequence that flows from your statement is that if you will not torture, then you will not kill, which is as bad or worse. I must conclude then that you would have refused to serve in the war.

My father served six years in the Royal Naval Voluntary Reserve between 1939-45 and was the youngest officer when he was commissioned. He did not volunteer to go to war as a career but to defend himself and his loved ones, and his countrymen, from fascism. In the circumstances,I do not see any real difference between the death of allied servicemen and civilians,

I do not see why men such as my father and all the others who were forced to fight to save us from fascism should have been sacrificed to save Japanese civilians. We are lucky we did not have to rely on you. So are the Israelis.

Richard Pearce

Phil.
Torture is illegal and no matter how I try to rationalise it, I cannot condone its use.

Breaking the law by use of torture in an effort to prevent another crime is fundamentally wrong.

I can appreciate that the catastrophic consequences of a terrorist act may far outweigh the suffering of one man subject to a "humane" form of torture, and in this instance, if it is beyond doubt that the subject has information that would be conducive to preventing such an act, it may be justified. Unfortunately, it is still against the law and cannot be condoned.

With specific conditions and regulations defined to govern its use, I would support a change in the law to allow "humane" torture under what could be described as very extreme circumstances.

It is, after all, illegal to shoot a man dead, however, an armed policeman does have the power to use lethal force to prevent, for arguments sake, a terrorist blowing up innocent people.

Richard Pearce

Linda.
You are entitled to your opinion regarding the reason for the surrender of Japan and I am entitled to mine.

I do, however, find your numb indifference to the consequences of the first use of Atomic weapons on innocent civilians, quite frankly, disturbing.

Imagine a city the size of Manchester in the UK or Miami in the US, then think about the people that live there going about their daily lives (albeit in wartime). Now imagine 130,000 of those people being vaporised in a matter of seconds - gone, only a shadow on the ground left behind as evidence of their existence. Then think of the 270,000 survivors who would be dead within six months time, many of whom have had the skin burnt from their bodies or their eyes melted from their sockets. The population of an entire city completely wiped out.

If fascist Germany or Japan had committed such an act of genocide, surely the perpetrator would be held accountable and the tried for war crimes.

The US dropped a mere 5 million leaflets across 35 Japanese cities (which included Hiroshima and Nagasaki) which said; "Read this carefully as it may save your life or the life of a relative or friend. In the next few days, some or all of the cities named on the reverse side will be destroyed by American bombs. These cities contain military installations and workshops or factories which produce military goods. We are determined to destroy all of the tools of the military clique which they are using to prolong this useless war. But, unfortunately, bombs have no eyes. So, in accordance with America's humanitarian policies, the American Air Force, which does not wish to injure innocent people, now gives you warning to evacuate the cities named and save your lives. America is not fighting the Japanese people but is fighting the military clique which has enslaved the Japanese people. The peace which America will bring will free the people from the oppression of the military clique and mean the emergence of a new and better Japan. You can restore peace by demanding new and good leaders who will end the war. We cannot promise that only these cities will be among those attacked but some or all of them will be, so heed this warning and evacuate these cities immediately".

There was no mention of a new bomb with a destructive force that could not be compared to the conventional bombings that these cities had already experienced.

Even President Truman's Chief of Staff at the time, William Leahy, the first US military officer ever to hold a five-star rank in the US Armed Forces. Leahy, who was without doubt, a very experienced military man, wrote in his memoirs; "Once it had been tested, President Truman faced the decision as to whether to use it. He did not like the idea, but he was persuaded that it would shorten the war against Japan and save American lives. It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons... My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make wars in that fashion, and that wars cannot be won by destroying women and children".

I stand by Leahy's observation that wars cannot be won by destroying women and children and I hope that the Israeli people would as well. If my position does not suite your world view then so be it. My conscience is clear.

Linda Smith

Richard Leahy: "I stand by Leahy's observation that wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

Six million Jewish innocent men women and children, as well as Gypsies and many others, died in the Holocaust. Not to mention the millions of others slain in the fight against the Nazis. I regret that no nuclear bomb was availabe earlier than 1945 to drop on Berlin.

The Israelis are facing genocidal religious maniacs, supported by genocidal maniacs in a soon to be nuclear Iran. The world's Jews are again being threatened by genocide.

You and I stand in two different moral universes. You are an armchair philospher and I am a pragmatist.

In the end it's a case of us or them. And I'd rather it's them.

phil

Richard -Linda says"You are an armchair philospher and I am a pragmatist.

In the end it's a case of us or them. And I'd rather it's them"-----and I have to agree with that -being" morally" right and dead has little attraction for me ,also I would not wish to impose that thought on countless others who would die to salve my conscience .Your stance is admirable but- sorry -it is not sensible

Richard Pearce

Linda.
We live in the same universe, only our morals are different.
I'll leave you with the words of a Palestinian Arab who has just lost his 11 year old son in the recent conflict in Gaza. Perhaps, despite his grief, his view will help shine a light through the darkness of the universe that we share; “Lets only pray for peace, and... stop war, and talk to people, talking always works. You can destroy a mountain with a bomb, but you cannot destroy an idea, and there is nothing more beautiful than an idea of peaceful coexistence”.

Richard Pearce

Phil.
We all face issues that do not make sense, however, if everybody took the view that to save a life is the most important thing one could do, then there would still be hope. Mahatma Gandhi, who is much more experienced in these matters than I, wrote in 1938; "Let the Jews who claim to be the chosen race prove their title by choosing the way of non-violence for vindicating their position on earth".

stanley Jerusalem

Richard Pearce - I'm sure the poor guy meant what he said. it's a pity he didn't say anything to his kid's teachers about the filth they were teaching him about the place of Jews in world society or prevent him attending his suicide bombing instruction courses.Where would your sympathies lie if that child were being taught to commit suicide on a bus which took your wife or children to school?

Richard Pearce

Stanley.

The poor guy that you are referring to is Suleiman Baraka, a Palestinian astrophysicist who has been working at Virginia Tech with NASA since October last year. I'm sure that he would have taken his family with him if Israel had allowed them to leave. Israel wouldn't even let him go back Gaza to mourn with his family.

In regards to his son, he said; "My house is not a military base, Ibrahim is 11 years old, he doesn't need F16 jet fighters to kill him. The roof of my house was there for me and my children to use my telescope, not anti-aircraft missiles or rockets".

Not every Palestinian is a terrorist, and thank God, not every Jewish person believes that is the case. Didn't Elie Wiesel say; "Mankind must remember that peace is not God's gift to his creatures; peace is our gift to each other."?

Linda Smith

Richard Pearce: I am curious. Do you know any reason why Egypt would not allow Mr Baraka's family to go to the US via their border with Gaza. Egypt is at peace with both Israel and the USA.

Richard Pearce

Linda.

Mr Baraka's family are now safe with him in the US (minus one son). I suggest you direct your query regarding the imprisonment of the citizens of Gaza to the Israeli or Egyptian authorities.

Linda Smith

Richard Pearce: Strange inversion of the truth in your quote from Mahatma Gandi in 1938. Seems to me it was the Nazis, not the Jews who were violent.

Never knew before that Gandhi was an antisemite.

phil

RICHARD P the quote "Mahatma Gandhi, who is much more experienced in these matters than I, wrote in 1938; "Let the Jews who claim to be the chosen race prove their title by choosing the way of non-violence for vindicating their position on earth".IF INDEED HE SAID IT ,ISN'T IT STRANGE THAT THEY WERE BEING MURDERED AT THAT TIME AND NOT FIGHTING ANYONE ? -----

.It does seem an odd quote from a wise man and he surely would have known that "the chosen"was to describe the task of the Jews to keep G-ds law .not to be superior or to get the oil-it has been an onerous task and one that I have failed in as I do eat pork but I am aware of the morality that JUDAISM TEACHES BOTH OURSELVES AND CHRISTIANITY .If this world followed the path that was set out for us by those laws we would not be debating the dilemmas we are facing now .-------

One thing that I have to tell you though is that I feel no need to vindicate my position on this earth -it was not my choice nor did I choose my religion ,although I do choose to follow its moral teachings and I hope that you do too.

phil

Richard P-I have researched your quote on Gandhi and I am surprised to say it is a total distortion of what he said and now I am wondering why you did that

-here is his speech -http://www.kamat.com/mmgandhi/mideast.htm -he is totally in favour of Jews ,although he has some reservations as to how they should deal with the land issue ,but they are the issues of 1938-I have to say I am surprised in view of our "coversations "at the post that you made on this subject. Perhaps yuo will clarify .

Rachel

I think the post above made some interesting points, on a related side note I found a used version of American Foreign Policy: Theoretical Essays which is directly related to this topic for less than the bookstores at http://www.belabooks.com/books/9780618918072.htm