Proxy-Activist Stress Syndrome?

logdon

The answer to Melanie's final sentence is nothing but no doubt George Laird will soon find a suitable connection. His dry and soulless Hallmark card condolences for all occasions offered to the Camerons whilst mustering any passionate obfuscation he can marshal in defence of Hamas says it all.

Tom

Umm, Mel - quite a lot really. Public health is at the heart of medicine. I agree with you that Israel is focused on disproportionately, but your argument here is misplaced. Articles in these journal frequently blur edges, such as, for instance, the merits of birth control etc. Given the fact your only qualification is an English degree, you would be cautious of casting stones here.

Harris Tweedy

In response to Tom, I would have thought they would be more focused on Zimbabwe and about a hundred other public health nightmares around the world. If Melanie's English degree disqualified her from commenting on anything other than Eng. Lang. and Lit. then she would have made little progress in her career. I think you need to read her CV more carefully before you cast that particular snide stone.

George Laird

Dear Logdon

People who know me well will tell you one thing.

Don't ask George Laird for his opinion just in case you might not like it.

On the subject of David Cameron and his family's tragic loss, I am deeply sorry for him and his family at this time.

I am also sorry that you feel given the circumstances that using it to have a go at me is appropriate.

I would hope that the moderators would removed your post as being in bad taste.

I don't say things that I don't mean.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Michael B

Tom,
"Disproportionately," in a nutshell, is the answer to your own implied question. Grossly disproportionate with an accompanying selectivity, thus a moral myopia would be more apt still. Two things, 1) review some of the world's other hotspots and then review BMJ's lack of proportionate hand-wringing concern when it comes to some of those other hotspots and 2) a review of BMJ's hand-wringing concerns since 2001/2002, when Hamas began firing munitions into Israeli civilian populations, evidences a total lack of concern, at least so based upon a search at BMJ's online site. So, it's that selectivity and the resulting malformed moral quality that needs correction and that forms the basis of Melanie's query.

Ann

We know, wee laird - but most of them are still ingorant rubbish.

"Umm, Mel - quite a lot really. Public health is at the heart of medicine. I agree with you that Israel is focused on disproportionately, but your argument here is misplaced. Articles in these journal frequently blur edges, such as, for instance, the merits of birth control etc. Given the fact your only qualification is an English degree, you would be cautious of casting stones here"

Drivel. Having a hysterical go at Israel is not at the 'heart of medicine' - it is in the black heart of antisemitism.

Ben

I am a doctor, and a BMA member. It is a very effective trade union, no question. The journal however has been nauseatingly right-on for years. The rot probably began with the editorship of Richard Smith, who amusingly decamped to big business for a while. Hamas/Israel is nothing to do with the BMJ really, it just suits the platitude spouters down at Tavistock Square

Tom

You've all completely ignored by point, apart from Michael who has blended both parts of Melanie's post into a composite question. But Melanie's only question focused on the single issue:

"I merely ask one question: what have the Arab/Israel impasse and Israel’s military strategy towards the Palestinians got to do with the practice of medicine?

And the answer is, as with ANY conflict, such experiences raise issues of huge importance to public health such as disease control, malnutrition and so forth.

Lizzy

Some great posts here.

Well, yes, George Laird, why is it always about Hamas while there isn't a corresponding outrage about the slow and horrible death of Zimbabwe? Could you answer in 100 words or fewer please.

Straydingo

George Laird,

The fact you sign of your posts with "The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University" for me is an illustration of what I find so wrong with most left-wing Moonbats positions on topics such as the Middle East & AGW.
The fact is your ideologies are underpinned with an innate desire to be seen as moral crusaders who need to beat their chests and bellowing out what every the latest trendy leftwing slogan.
Personally, I believe that a society needs to have and encourage health debate but how is one supposed to take someone like you serious when they sign off with "The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University".

Straydingo

I have just read the bmj.com article in question in which Michael O'Donnell is quoted as saying

“the best way to blunt the effectiveness of orchestrated email campaigns is to expose them to public scrutiny”.

Is this guy for real?

What world is he living in?

Does he not realise that we are now living in the age of Web 2.0, in which a person (no matter what status they may hold) with an internet connection can access a treasure trove of information which only a decade ago was not even imaginable.

When he says “the best way to blunt the effectiveness of orchestrated email campaigns is to expose them to public scrutiny” he is challenging the very gift that access to the internet gives and that is power to the people.

It’s well documented that one of the key reasons that Obama won his election was by effectively using the Web as part of his PR arsenal – does this mean the Republicans should be calling for the use of the Web as a means of communicating?
How is one supposed to take these individuals seriously?

Vision Aforethought

Well, from all the hate, lies and/or trouble causing highlighted by this blog and other enlightened organs of sanity, can we now conclude that those with interests in further demonising you know what and you know who are inserting themselves into every formerly? credible organisation and using a process known in military circles as divide and conquer to achieve their objectives. Look what they have done to the UN and Amnesty International!

Oliwagino Alefava Yihiri

That is what I am asking myself what Israel military strategy towards philistine get to do with the practicing of medicine? it is all about "jealousy" off course, the left wing liberals want to create propaganda for Israel, before they was mentioning about the economy like money and banking now it is about medicine
it doesn't make sense

and anyhow it past my bed time now

MikeNZ

Tom you state:

"I merely ask one question: what have the Arab/Israel impasse and Israel’s military strategy towards the Palestinians got to do with the practice of medicine?

Sorry Tom, the answer is Nothing.

Unless of course you want to use it to politically lob verbal grenades at Israel and keep the anti-Jewish crap going around the world.
MikeNZ

Michael B

Tom,
The originating question can be interpreted as one that assumes an all or nothing response, while foreclosing other considerations - or it can be interpreted as one that is more rhetorical in nature, intended to open up a more probeing set of questions and considerations. I chose the latter interpretation.

Norm

Given Israel's even handed medical treatment of all who were injured I would have thought that was something the BMJ would be praising.

Laura

Tom, you've got no "point" whatsoever. If it's to do with the practice of medicine then it should be in the journal. This has got sod all to do with medicine. It's to do with international politics. It's called the British Medical Journal - what on earth is it doing outside of a British jurisdiction?

Not that it's the only journal to stick its nose in where it's got no business. My other half had to cancel his NUJ subscription because of the endless stuff in it (especially at conference time) on Israel/Palestinians.

That's supposed to be a union looking after the pay and conditions of journalists yet thinks is perfectly OK to have senior people in its hierarchy using other people's subscription money to mouth off at Israel at its wretched conferences.

Neither of us is Jewish, he just got fed up with people being so bent on using their journal/union to try to whip up antipathy towards Israel.

Some of us do see through it, you know.

Suffolkbor

What has the Arab/Israeli impasse got to do with the practise of medicine ?
Sod all !
It is now fashionable to wade in with criticism of Israel or just to bring the subject up no matter how out of context it may be and in whatever irrelevant publication .
I would not be at all surprised to discover an article slagging of Israel and the Jews in an edition of The Welly Throwers Quarterly if such a periodical existed .
If one presented such a scenario in the form of satire in the tiresome period of history in which we now find ourselves it would , without a doubt , be taken as gospel by those poor simpletons to whom irony is an unfathomable concept .

gary ashton

the key word is 'british' in british medical journal.
british is a term that needs redefining.

Linda Smith

"What have the Arab/Israel impasse and Israel's military strategy towards the Palestinians got to do with the practice of medicine?"

See for example article co-authored on 5 Jan 09 BMG Group Blogs by Tony Waterston, Professor Emeritus John Yukin, Marion Birch, Director of Medact: "Tony Waterston on the Situation in Gaza"

"....We deplore the inadequate response of the Israeli and other world governments to the humanitarian crisis..........On humanitarian grounds, we appeal to the Israeli government to cease the bombing forthwith.....

The article does not mention Hamas or ask them to stop firing rockets. Dr Tony Waterston is credited "....he leads the RCPCH teaching programme in the occupied Palestinian territories."

There are 28 "political" comments from supporters and haters of Israel locked in battle, with the usual suspects saying Israel has no right to exist.

John Edwards

What has the humanitarian crisis in the Occupied palestinian Territories got to do with a medical journal. Nothing apart from the effects of a shortage of medical supplies and equipment, poverty, malnutrition, death and injury from IDF attacks etc etc.

Karl Sabbagh's article on the content of the e-mails is an absolute classic. Makes the pro-Israel campaigners look VERY stupid

It seems the BMJ have got you bang to rights.

Adam B.

George laird, I couldn't care less which organization you claim to represent. We are all grown ups here, have done different things in our lives, and don't feel the need to label ourselves as one thing or another. You know nothing about any of us, we just discuss the topic. What makes you so impressed with yourself that you pompously feel you need to sign yourself with your silly mantra about your school?

Time to talk like a big boy.

Owen Morgan

Tom said,initially quoting Melanie, '"I merely ask one question: what have the Arab/Israel impasse and Israel’s military strategy towards the Palestinians got to do with the practice of medicine?"

'And the answer is, as with ANY conflict, such experiences raise issues of huge importance to public health such as disease control, malnutrition and so forth.'

So why the concentration on these subjects now and why uniquely in the context of Israel & Gaza? What are the PC quacks going to learn from this war in Gaza, that they shouldn't have known already? Bullet-wounds and shrapnel wounds, I believe, are pretty much the same now as they were in 1915. Malnutrition hasn't changed much since Hippocrates was a lad. Has the BMJ covered conflicts in, say, the Congo, Sierra Leone, Sudan, or Sri Lanka, in equal detail? Or the cholera epidemic in Zimbabwe?

Tom

Laura, I really object to the idea that I don't 'see' through it - implying I tacitly acquiese in the anti-semitism I recognise is growing across the UK and have campaigned against at varioius occasions both at university here and abroad since 2005.

However, to suggest the BMJ should focus only on medical procedures itself displays an understanding of the knowledge and role of medicine in society which is incredibly ignorant. Should the BMJ have articles about NHS funding? Should it have articles about treatment after 7/7 and in associated disasters? I'm actually fairly shocked people here do not realise that any humanitarian crisis provides information of considerable value to the medical profession, given the life-threatening conditions which ensue.

In relation to the NUJ, there is no disagreement between us; or for that matter NUS, Amnesty, the teaching unions and so forth. I would have hoped, on this site, people would have the clarity make more refined distinctions. I was, evidently, wrong.

Nathan

I trust all these medical people will make sure that no drugs,devices,scanning equipment etc that the Israelis invented
or originated through their research will never ever be use in their patients,so they can be true to their biased views.

Robbins

To Tom, if there is malnutrition in Gaza it's the fault of Hamas and not Israel.

The BMJ is being led by a bunch of political activist and Jew haters. It's that simple.

GaryO

Has anyone blamed Israel for the global warming yet?
Give them some time!

GaryO

Actually on the same token, many of the charities (we all know which ones) are also highly politicised and pro Hamas and have therefore lost my support.

Wm. Hazlitt

I was surprised to learn that Melanie Phillips' degree was in Eng. lit. I had a similar education long ago, but I could not inform the nation on so many issues, and so diverse. Not only radical Islam, Israel/Palestine,and US politics,but climate change, and medical science. Think of the number of scientific specialities she had to master to adjudicate on climate change, all the data she had to sift through and analyse, all the competing arguments to digest. Even the advanced statistics required would floor me. And the same with medical science. Take MMR. I would not know enough about vaccination, about the links between the gut and the brain, about epidemiology, and again statistics, my great bugbear. Then there is her work on radio, which requires a deep knowledge of ethics, a huge subject which many many very clever people have devoted their lives to studying to try to come up with answers that will withstand critical scrutiny.

I think the nation owes Melanie Phillips a debt of gratitude.

She has a point in her question about medical journals discussing public health. I suppose the answer is that the doctors believe the UN (Boo, hiss) and the aid agencies (socialistical wimps) that there is a crisis in public health in Gaza, and in the West Bank. Apparently, back in 2002, one in five children under the age of five in Gaza was malnourished. What must the figure be now? Apparently the Palestinian population in the West Bank gets much less than the daily amount of water recommended by the WHO, because Israel has appropriated all the aquifers and siphoned off most of the water for the settlements and for Israel proper. Apparently, when they blockaded Gaza in 2006, Israel allowed in 9000 types of basic commodity, but reduced the number in 2008 to 20. Apparently, Israeli bombing has seriously compromised the sewage system. Apparently when Israel bombed Gaza's only power station it had some effect on the electicity supply. Apparently medical supplies are, well, in short supply. I suppose as public health experts doctors wish to discuss Gaza as an experiment on live subjects on how to create a humanitarian crisis, to add to their work on Zimbabwe, Iraq, Burma and elsewhere. We can only hope that the knowledge they glean will help them address a public health disaster should it ever happen to us.

There is also the possibility that the doctors are humane and want the suffering to stop.

gary ashton

i just watched Robert Baer ex cia big wig on australian tv being interviewed about the advice he is giving obama about iran. it's incredible.
he says the us should drop israel and forge allegiances with iran as that is the strongest player in the mid east. he basically says america has lost the war to iran because they can't afford to start one and maintain it for 30 years.
incredible!!!!

Derek BLADES

Norm 25 February, wrote "Given Israel's even handed medical treatment of all who were injured I would have thought that was something the BMJ would be praising."
The problem is that Israel also took an even-handed approach to injuring people in its recent war on Gaza. Women, children and non-combatant adult males were injured - and indeed killed – at least as often as the Hamas soldiers. The BMJ has a right to express views on what most normal people see as a murderous and wholly disproportionate attack by a sophisticated military machine on a defenceless civilian population.

James Murphy

'Israel's use of white Phosphorus gas in Gaza has raised the temperature in the region by 0.0001% over the past month, thus contributing a potentially lethal Global Warming additive to already high pollution levels in the Middle -East, climate experts stated this week in the Daily Spart.

salsify

Wm., apparently your agenda is to bash Israel and any trumped-up claim will do for your purposes.

EC

George Laird, "The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University"

Exactly how are human rights being infringed at Glasgow University?

I think that George Laird, The Glasgow University Peace and Justice Commission would sound far more impressive.

stanley Jerusalem

The point being made here is the incongruity of a Medical Journal expressing partisan views on a political situation outside the remit of the Journal.
What's next? Cookery columns criticising Israel's staple commodity distribution to the Gaza Strip [despite the billions poured into the PLO Hamas and Fatah] or perhaps a gardening column. " Now's the time to earth up your rhubarb for a bumper crop; not like those terrible Israelis in Gush Katif. Oops, sorry, they gave those $1,000,000.00 dollar greenhouses to Hamas who bulldozered them."
We are back to the AGM's of the Boilermakers Union in the 60's expressing their solidarity with the poor downtrodden workers of [......] fill in blank.Again outside their remit but with a false image of aninternational conscience.

stanley Jerusalem

Derek BLADES
February 26th, 2009 9:48am "The BMJ has a right to express views on what most normal people see as a murderous and wholly disproportionate attack by a sophisticated military machine on a defenceless civilian population."
Do they? On what wholly independent source would they base their comments? On which forum and for whose consumption would theymake those comments? Do they require a mandate from their membership before doing so? Have they obtained it?
What do they perceive as the goal of their non-medical opinions?

Michelle

It's a shame the mainstream press and the BMJ can't report on Israeli and Palestinian scientists uniting to help the region. Check this story out http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enDispWho=Articles%5El2408&enPage=BlankPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enVersion=0&enZone=Democracy&

peter

Israel has frustrated and purposefully delayed medical treatment in the past to Palestinians.

In any case, any show of a humanitarian spirit from Israel counts for nothing, given that rogue state's wholesale and consistent slaughter of civilians.

Nannette

No-one's mentioned the billions of dollars which Hamas used to buy weapons (rockets, bombs, anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles), etc.

They COULD have used the money to build hospitals, schools, homes, industry and BUILD an infrastructure for their country.

The world should have encouraged them to BUILD instead of DESTROY after Israel gave them their independence in 2005.

They don't want peace, they want to DESTROY Israel and all western civilisation. Yet, the BMJ won't mention this, and nor will they mention the fact that Hamas has decided the best way to treat Christians is by crucifixion.

While the west is busy promoting, forgiving, and apologising for Islamic terror, Christians and other faiths are routinely massacred and persecuted by Muslims in nearly all Islamic countries, with no-one in the west protesting about the grotesque treatment of these minorities.

They crocodile will always bite off the hand that feeds it in the end... and the Islamists will have their way.

We'll be forced to regress to the 7th century, with no freedom of expression, no free speech, etc., and where will the BMJ be then?

Nannette

I'm wondering why the BMJ haven't boycotted any Israeli medical and technological advances made in the past few years.

Is it because they're just bigotted hypocrites? But they want to use the Israeli advances to benefit their own practices...

Mr R

Peter: "In any case, any show of a humanitarian spirit from Israel counts for nothing..." You got that right, buddy. And that's because of bigots like you.

martin.

I'm afraid Jew hating doctors exist.
You may recall some tried to bomb glasgow Airport

Dehumanise then pulverise

Good one EC-Campaigning for Human Rights at Glasgow-ha! or lol as they say.
But imagine his gall-using the death of David Cameron's child to score a cheap point, eh logdon?

Dixon

Harold Shipman...wasn't he a member of the BMA?

Linda Smith

Peter: re your comment on Israel "any show of a humanitarian spirit counts for nothing, given that rogue state's wholesale and consistent slaughter of civilians".

As you present yourself as a passionate humanitarian, I would love to hear your comments on Darfur?

Or is it only Israeli Jews and "Palestinians" Moslems you are passionate about?

Linda Smith

Just noticed a typo in my post of 25 Feb 11:37pm. Should read BMJ Group Blogs.

John Thomas

Yes, There are at least two understandings of "Human Rights", a left wing one and a right wing one. The important thing is never to believe that either of them actually put purely-ethical, genuinely humanitarian, considerations before political ideology. How often do you get these "human rights" organisations speaking up for the righht to life - the most basic right of all - or in any way questioning the biggest holocaust, the greatest evil, in human history, the abortion holocaust? And never trust people who trumpet the "ethical policies" of their organisation - such as the Co-op Bank - with their holier-than-thou smugness; I asked the Co-op Bank about the place of abortion rejection in their vaunted "ethical" policies - you can imagine the reply I got. Total hypocrisy, all of it, nothing but hypocrisy.

Original Tony

I will try and post this again...a frequent anti-Israel poster on this Blog is George Laird.

I have been intrigued why he always signs on behalf of 'The campaign for Human rights' at Glasgow University, so I took the liberty of phoning Glagow University this morning and guess what, nobody has ever heard of him. I then searched their website for 'The Camapaign for human rights' of which I got 283 posts/thesis/narratives/seminars but after reading through 80 of them I found no mention of Mr Laird.

So who are you Mr Laird and do you think your non-title, non-affiliation with the University makes you feel any more legitimate than the rest of us?

I will certainly ignore all your posts until you reveal your affiliation with Glasgow University

Jenny

I know, ‘Wm. Hazlitt‘, who does Melanie Phillips think she is? There go all those herds of other journalists in The Guardian and so on commenting on all these things you’ve listed that have such a huge impact on our everyday lives and world events and here is Melanie Phillips doing the same!

Who does she think she is? All these other people putting their oar in and she dares to break the BBC/Guardianista hegemony. How could she have the temerity to challenge their liberal fascist orthodoxy?

The thing is, Mr ’Hazlitt’, is that Melanie Phillips has never made herself out to be anything other than a journalist, so why could you be so upset with her and not all these other people?

Do you know, Mr ‘Hazlitt’, I think it might just be that she’s so effective at what she does that she’s getting to be an embarrassment to all those other lightweights who spend their lives re-writing government press releases.

It’s very nice of you to bring your green eyes over here and let us know how much it gets to you, but, really, shouldn’t you be busy trying to rebuild morale on the other side?

I know it must hurt when one journalist single-handedly cuts through the shameless cant of so many others but, really, don‘t the liberal fascists’ dunces make it so easy for her? If you told them all to try harder you might not have this problem you‘ve got with Mel.

Donna Gardier

So Derek Blades:-

What do you do when Gaza and its people are carefully and clinically indoctrinated with hate and primed to hold onto a position as “a vanguard” to the ultimate aims of Islam? Their children are raised deliberately as sacrificial impoverished undereducated political pawns. This land is prime propaganda fodder and the whole campaign which has built up around their pain and isolation is DELIBERATE. It is not very difficult to see the image of the main oppressors using cunning tactics to abuse part of its people as fodder for the aims of the bigger game. The Israelis among other tolerations have therefore put up with years of their own frightened schoolchildren being traumatised and shuffled into shelters on a daily basis to avoid being killed by rockets launched by Hamas.

Israel is a nation built on the beliefs of a people who have been hounded and dislocated for centuries. Yet nonetheless they have a predominant well adapted, widely assimilated passive peaceful culture. Israel in recent years you could say has been waiting for a sign that someone somewhere will recognise who is doing what, and why, and that there will be a sign that ALL the radicals will back off and encourage education and freedom and self fulfilment and other healthy values in Gaza and surrounding areas.

How vain a hope is it that Palestine, a region designated as a vanguard in the fight towards Islamic dominance can build a healthy response to the Chief Protagonists of war who are comfortably ensconced in Iran who have murderous radical self serving agendas and who blithely supply arms and convince their people the path to paradise is to sacrifice their lives and those of their children. Should Israel just give up and abandon the country they have built because of these oppressors and their ridiculous tactics? No of course not. But the world is going around in cowardly pretentious circles justifying their naïve belief in appeasement and diplomacy against a depraved and mediaeval threat, pretending there are not a whole bunch of maniacal murderers gaining too much of a stranglehold on modern civilisation. Cue comments like yours Derek

….”The BMJ has a right to express views on what most normal people see as a murderous and wholly disproportionate attack by a sophisticated military machine on a defenseless civilian population”……

Hopefully not everyone is cowering in the comfort of self-delusional appeasement as you would have it? Surely it doesn’t take much to work out that the greatest fear the people in Gaza live with is fear induced by the controlling Islamic mindbenders. These oppressed people don’t fear death for themselves or their children, they have been convinced that their poverty and neglect is a necessary role towards the final solution. It is a win win situation for the Islamic propagandists.

Hamas and all radical Islamists should be vilified for their stupidity. Here’s a solution, let Mamas take over and sort all these idiots out. From what I’ve seen from many contented successful thriving productive communities, it works for the Jews! Perhaps the Islamists know this only too well?

George Laird

Dear Lizzy

If Melanie Phillips does a piece on Zimbabwe, then I will read it.

Depending on the content; I may comment.

Melanie start scribbling something!

Finally, some people feel fake "outrage" at how I sign off my posts.

I don't care, I have made my position clear on how this matter can be changed so there is no need to state it again.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Penny

I've heard that Israell researchers are working on a cancer cure which involves lemongrass. Apparently, a gram of a substance found in this herb (citral) causes cancer cells to commit suicide.

I wonder if the BMJ - or indeed, those who currently deem Israel an unworthy 'rogue state', will
stand by their principles if this cure turns out to be of medical importance?

Linda Smith

Derek Blades: "The BMJ has a right to express views on what most normal people see ...."

Medicine is an evidence based science. I am not aware that the BMJ has conducted any evidence based research on "what most normal people see..." vis-a-vis Israel.

Nor have you.

Linda Smith

Wm. Hazlitt: " many, many very clever people have devoted their lives to studying to try to come up with answers that will withstand critical scrutiny.

The purpose of any university degree is not the "jug method" of cramming your head with "facts" but to learn how to analyse, think critically, and present an argument. It is not necessary to know how to do statistics, it's just a tool. It is only necessary to understand the principles underlying their employment.

Anyway, it was a child who said "the emperor's got no clothes".

Wm. Hazlitt

salsify,
If "any trumped-up charge" will do (though I tend to think they are of no use whatsoever, indeed counterproductive) tell me a few.

salsify

Wm. -- gee, your post is full of 'em! (What do you think, they're REAL?!! TRUE?!!)

stanley Jerusalem

Wm. Hazlitt
February 26th, 2009 2:23pm
What are you doing here? You passed away on the 18th Sep.1830 after a relatively superficial existence as an essayist.
You truly appear to believe the nonsense emanating from Gazan Hamas sources and turn the blinding glare of your coruscating satire on Melanie Phillip's attempt to highlight the incongruous stance of the editorial policy of the sacrosanct BMJ.
Either dryden or Pope, I don't recall, claimed that satire could be defined as removing your opponent's head with so sharp a rapier that even he wouldn't notice. Sorry, mate, no cigar.

Robin

SuffolkBor

What have you got against Welly Throwers? They have enough problems coping with Welly Throwers' Finger. See this article published in our favourite journal:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1351888

Wm. Hazlitt

salsify,
It will therefore pose no difficulty for you to declare which charges you mean and what justifies you in calling them "trumped up" (preferably without a ! ? and CAPITALS arms race).

Pete Hoskin

George Laird: we haven't been approving some of your posts recently, as this is not the forum for you to wage your campaign against Glasgow University.

Everyone else: comments feeding into the Glasgow Uni thing won't be approved from now on...

Dixon

Re some very muddled reasoning by Wm Hazlitt et others...incidentally Mr Hazlitt, I read your "Journeys through France and Italy " ( or was it Spain ) ...it was a matter of great difficulty staying awake long enough to finish each paragraph.

Of course MEMBERS of the BMA or staff at BMJ are entitled to campaign about anything as is anybody. The point is that the campaigning is not relevant to their responsibilities in the BMJ or BMA nor does the authority of those bodies have any bearing upon political questions. The argument that Gaza and Israel are issues of "public health" would have it that the BMJ should also publish articles about car design or whether airliners should be allowed to have only two engines over oceans...both also "public health issues".

The argument that writers in the BMJ are as entitled to use it to advance views on non-medical topics as Mel P is to talk about Gaza in the spectator is obviously daft because of the simple fact that the Spectator is a POLITICAL and CURRENT AFFAIRS journal, and it is specifically her role to write about such topics. Her articles about MMR ( upon which her views I oppose ) are ALSO about the politics of the topic. If she wrote instead a paper about...lets say, the incidence of arthritis in skateboarders...I doubt they would publish it at the Spec', for the simple reason that it is not a political issue.

Underlying all of this is the point that the medical profession enjoys a hyper-inflated status in our society ( a bit like investment bankers used to ) and many of them try to exploit that "Dr" and the authority it seems to imply, to ram their opinions down our throats.

What in turn galls me most, is that it takes several years on top of a degree and the production of original research to obtain a Phd and the title "Dr" in any other subject, but medics get to wear that spurious badge of authority as soon as they obtain their basic degree. So, in reality, most medical "doctors" are not in reality doctors at all!

What is medicine? A complex form of plumbing. That is all. Medics are plumbers with a capacity to memorise large quantities of "manual" type text-book information. It is no indication of reasoning ability to obtain a medical degree, but rote learning and hard work. It has been observed by scientists that when medics try to pretend to scientific reasoning the outcome is lamentable.

George Laird

Dear Pete Hoskin

I would remind you that I have only responded to those who have attempted to smear me.

I have also when challenged responded that I am willing to prove my veracity, third party.

As such my comments are retort and fair comment.

If someone implied you were a liar, would you feel you had a right to a fair reply.

This board is censored, so I would assume that I would not be out of place to ask for fair treatment.

I am happy to have the same rights as everyone else, not more and certainly not less.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

stanley Jerusalem

Dixon - your evaluation of Medics with aspirations as scholars rang a bell. Some years ago at a concert on the South Bank the Professor of Cardio-Thoracic surgery with whom I arrived introduced himself to an old friend of mine, an Emeritus Professor of Law , as a plumber. he also called orthopaedic surgeons carpenters. Perhaps the upper echelons of the profession are undeluded as opposed to the editorail staff of the BMJ.

C.Gee

Wm.Hazlitt,
Your list of Palestinian (West Bank and Gaza) complaints: malnourishment, water shortage, lack of over 800 "basic" commodities (how "basic" can they be?), lack of sewer systems and electricity, may well be reasons for public health concerns, but as every one of them is self-inflicted, the question is why do the Arabs, including the Palestinians, continue to allow these public health threats? Why have they not poured money into infrastructure, hospitals, civic institutions? Because propaganda against Israel blaming Zionists for Palestinian plight is cheaper. It is much more useful to their purposes to have chumps like you loathing Israel than to have a productive, self-sufficient, Palestinian population. Just a little research effort will lead you to facts that rebut the accusation that Israel steals water. Look at the history of Israel's efforts to install sewage systems and other infrastructure and the Palestinian refusals. Look at the many, many, exposes of Palestinian propaganda hoaxes - including having the PA leaders meet in candlelight, when the photograph shows sunlight through gaps in the curtains. Lately, we even had a photo of that Booth woman in a store in Gaza with fully loaded shelves, a fact unhelpful to her cause of protesting Israel's blockade. The complaint about medical supply shortages is fast rising to 'Protocol of the Elders of Zion' status - known lies believed as truth. And please, look into the history of Palestinians living in Lebanon. The BMJ may be interested.

Rob

"What is medicine? A complex form of plumbing."

If medics are plumbers, us patients must be plug-holes...

Truthtriumphs

Derek BLADES.
Ignorant, as usual.
Did you not know that Hamas fought with many of their combatants dressed in civilian clothing, against all the established rules of warfare?
They admitted it themselves.
Neither is the population of Gaza "defenceless".
They are armed to the teeth with bombs, mortars, AK4's, missiles etc. etc.paid for by huge sums donated for humanitarian aid.Infact, there are more AK4s than there are Gazans.
Nor is the population of Gaza "innocent", as they voted in democratically (as people like you never tire of telling us) Hamas, a movement whose ideology is based on the destruction of a sovereign state and the murder of Jews worldwide.
One thing that can be said for Hamas is that, just like Hitler, it has always been upfront as to its true intentions.
It is those, like yourself, who choose to sanitize it, in the deluded belief that kufirs like you will be spared their brutality when the time comes.

Felicitas

Nannette, I agree the militia muslims are destroying their countries, they are buying weapons, they don't have enough food for their people, schools for their children, hospitals to treat the sick people, it is happening many muslim countries not only Palestine, for example Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia etc
I don't know what to say but the muslim people have to stop destroying their own countries

George Laird

Dear C. Gee

“Your list of Palestinian (West Bank and Gaza) complaints: malnourishment, water shortage, lack of over 800 "basic" commodities (how "basic" can they be?), lack of sewer systems and electricity, may well be reasons for public health concerns, but as every one of them is self-inflicted, the question is why do the Arabs, including the Palestinians, continue to allow these public health threats?”

How does an innocent Palestinian get a self-inflicted Israelis artillery barrage?

“Why have they not poured money into infrastructure, hospitals, civic institutions?”

Are you saying they should be starting a building works during that can be destroyed by Israeli shelling? Where is the sense in that? Do you remember the UN building a base for humanitarian supplies?

What did the Israelis do? They destroyed it and killed UN personnel.

Here is your question back, why did the UN allow this self-inflicted event to happen to them?

“Because propaganda against Israel blaming Zionists for Palestinian plight is cheaper”.

So, what is Mark Regev, if nothing but a spin doctor, is he just an interested party standing about every time a microphone or a tv crew pop up?

“It is much more useful to their purposes to have chumps like you loathing Israel than to have a productive, self-sufficient, Palestinian population”.

How can the Palestinian be self-sufficient when their borders are closed?

“Just a little research effort will lead you to facts that rebut the accusation that Israel steals water. Look at the history of Israel's efforts to install sewage systems and other infrastructure and the Palestinian refusals”.

Got a link complete with pictures, third party independent?

“Look at the many, many, exposes of Palestinian propaganda hoaxes - including having the PA leaders meet in candlelight, when the photograph shows sunlight through gaps in the curtains”.

You might find that the curtains were drawn as a security measure so that a sniper couldn’t put a bullet through someone’s head. Your observation is not proof that the electricity is on.

“Lately, we even had a photo of that Booth woman in a store in Gaza with fully loaded shelves, a fact unhelpful to her cause of protesting Israel's blockade”.

Do shop owners sell food for free, last time I checked it cost money! Again, what is that other than subjective opinion?

“The complaint about medical supply shortages is fast rising to 'Protocol of the Elders of Zion' status - known lies believed as truth”.

I recall recently that a convoy with supplies including medical left Scotland for Gaza and on board was a Labour MSP, Pauline O’Neill, are you saying she was duped?

“And please, look into the history of Palestinians living in Lebanon. The BMJ may be interested”.

What is this statement trying to say? So what if there are Palestinians living in Lebanon, what difference does that make to those starving and living on aid in Gaza?

It is meaningless.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Louise

Over the years many medical breakthroughs have been made by researchers at the wonderful Weizmann Institute, for the benefit of all humankind.
Israeli doctors often treat Palestinian patients, including children with deformities.
Of course, little of this goes reported in the media.

Penny

C. Gee - I realise this is off-post a little, but you mentioned the Protocols of the Elders of Zion - a dire publication that is raising its ugly head yet again.

As part of my research, I have been visiting many internet sites and forums where I've tripped over these 'Protocols'.

The hysterical views of those who believe them to be true are, well...hysterical!

According to the conspiracy theorists, the 'Elders' are behind every dastardly deed ever known to mankind. Their power and genius is such that they appear capable of almost ruling the known Universe, let alone this planet.

Well, if they are so powerful, so brilliant and so capable, how come they actually WROTE down a Master plan? Hadn't they heard of 'code'? I mean, if you were a powerful group, intent on world domination, would you devise a plan and then write it in a known language? Even the feeble nations of the world have more savvy than to do that!

More to the point, how come they were daft enough to leave it lying about, ready to be discovered? Once it had been, how come they didn't use their limitless powers to suppress it?

Even if it wasn't a hoax, wouldn't the sheer ineptitude of these so-called 'Elders' reassure you that they are no threat?

War is Peace

Donna Gardiner now has a psychic connection with the people of Gaza-'Surely it doesn’t take much to work out that the greatest fear the people in Gaza live with is fear induced by the controlling Islamic mindbenders.'
Surely Israeli policy has shaped Palestinian attitudes. Any outcry from you over the settlements, the use of the security wall to annex further land, the demolition of houses?

Michael Brett

Oh God, doesn't Melanie Phillips talk about anything else? She won the George Orwell prize but he wrote about everything from children's comics to the state of the nation. She's a bit of a one tune piano player. Shame.

Wm. Hazlitt

C. Gee, Stanley Jerusalem, Linda Smith, and Jenny,

Thank you all for your comments. I found them enlightening.

Wm. Hazlitt

Stanley Jerusalem,
Your remark on satire is I grant you all too apt. My writing has deteriorated sadly since 1830. But your comment about my pre-death career - oh, you know how to wound!

Dixon

stanley Jerusalem
February 26th, 2009 4:50pm
Dixon - your evaluation of Medics with aspirations as scholars rang a bell. Some years ago at a concert on the South Bank the Professor of Cardio-Thoracic surgery with whom I arrived introduced himself to an old friend of mine, an Emeritus Professor of Law , as a plumber. he also called orthopaedic surgeons carpenters. Perhaps the upper echelons of the profession are undeluded as opposed to the editorail staff of the BMJ."

I think he was referring to the saws and such like that they are prone to use.

Seriously though, its not a matter of scholarship. scholarship is itself another matter of rote acquisition of knowledge. Its the reasoning...what you make of the knowledge...that a medical training does not necessarily indicate. Sure, there are plenty of very intelligent medics, but its also certainly true that complete numbnuts can pass the exams if they have a good memory for raw information.

The most scathing critique of medical "scientific manques" ( or "manky" pseudo scientists ) was penned by one of the fathers of American Behaviourism, C.L.Hull, when he took apart, with very little effort, and hung out for contempt the "research" into hypnotism conducted by Binet and feret and later Heillig and Hoff.

Dixon

Rob
February 26th, 2009 5:05pm
"What is medicine? A complex form of plumbing."
If medics are plumbers, us patients must be plug-holes..."

Well, they are always seeking to shove things up and down us!

Penny

Dear George (Laird)

I wonder if you noticed my posts on 27th February, one of which was addressed to you in person?

In this - and later posts - I raised and addressed some of the issues mentioned by Cee Gee, along with comments made by the Palestinian journalist Khalid Abu Toameh, the PLO Military head, Zuhier Mohsen and a Saudi delegate to the UN.

Not all appear in the same post as I was replying to points raised by Si Ni through the day, but, by looking for my name you should find them with great ease.

Would you perhaps read them and care to comment - especially as the journalist named above made four very pertinent points in respect of the radicalisation of the people of Gaza and the corruption amongst the leaders.

Remember, journalists in Gaza are not free to write the truth - if you 'Google' Khalid, you will find his statements on this. He is an open man who criticises all those involved in the Palestinian/Israeli situation - he doesn't cherry pick. As this is the case, why not listen to what he has to say?

Human rights issues are important, but all too often those supporting them listen only to the minority voices who shout the loudest (the leaders or agitators) whilst ignoring the majority who are the real victims.

C. Gee

War is Peace,
'Palestinian' - Arab - attitudes have not changed very much since the Naqba. Egypt and Jordan signed a treaty with Israel, but their attitudes to Israel and the Jews remain hostile. I think a strong case may be made that Israeli policies are irrelevant to Palestinians. Land for Peace? Refused many times.
The were given Gaza - lock, stock and greenhouses. No peace in return. Leftist or rightist Israeli policies make no difference. Palestinian leaders - whether 'secular' Fatah or Islamist Hamas - want the end of Israel, and of Jews. Lest you believe otherwise, why should the presence of Jews in settlements on the West Bank prevent a land for peace deal? Why would they not take the settlers as full citizens should they wish it? Surely, they do not want a Judenrein state? As for outcry - thank goodness the security wall has silenced the noisy outcry of Israelis (Jewish and Arab) at the deaths caused by suicide bombers. Demolished Arab houses? Rebuild. Demolished Jews? Shrug.

Wm. Hazlitt

Stanley Jerusalem,
It may be the pique of an author scorned, but on reflection I cannot let pass your cavalier dismissal of facts as emanating from Hamas. My sources were the Boston Globe, John Hopkins University, Ha'aretz, the Israeli government via Reuters... okay, and the BBC that den of vipers (nb also C.Gee). Do not base your strong opinions on ignoring facts.

stanley Jerusalem

Wm. Hazlitt - Do not base your strong opinions on ignoring facts.
Pick-and-mix,eh?
Oh well,never let the truth get in the way of a good storyTrouble is it's nigh on impossible to read between somes lines when the quoter is not listening but rearranging their prejudices.

Sweeie

George Laird, if you are, as you call yourself "Head of Campaign for Human Rights", what do you feel about the human rights of Israeli citizens to live in peace without the hellish threats of racist Moslems who want them wiped of the face of the earth. I dont suppose you will respond, because you cant defend your opinion.

Ros Morris

In December last I was invited to the Schneider Childrens' Medical Centre in Petach Tiqva. I was shown around by both the heads of Cardiology and Emergency Medicine. The Schneider Hospital is dedicated to reaching out to children from all areas of the Middle East. In fact this is enshrined in the hospital's modus operandi.

While I was there, I met with patients from Gaza, the West Bank and other Muslim countries. Everyone is treated equally and the staff are delighted to be able to treat these children along with Israeli patients.

Much new technology is created there and all children are the beneficiaries of this.

Why is this not reported on? Namely because it's a 'good' story.

This hospital is not unique in Israel. Hadassah in Jerusalem welcomes patients from all over the Middle East too, as does Soroka in Tel Aviv.

As an aside, it is well known in medical research circles in Israel that the BMJ effectively curtail many research papers from being discussed in its publication. More fool them!

An American

I thought it incredibly naive when many of the bloggers here thought that Hillary would be a strong supporter of Israel...much more so than Obama.

Many Americans have known for a very long time that far-lefty Hillary would throw Israel under the bus the first chance she got.

Well...read the latest headlines about Hillary's tirade against Israel and how badly she feels for the poor Gazans...

It's no surprise to me. Once a leftist always a leftist.

ps...Is it me or does Hillary need to take her makeup person along with her on her world jaunts...boy is she looking worse for the wear.

Donna Gardier

To:War is Peace 26/2 8.09pm

Over 100,000 Palestinians used to work in Israel, on Israeli settlements, or in joint industrial zones...that is till the Tunisians arrived in 1993 and the intifadas began.

If as a race the Arabs concentrated on shoring up Palestinian independence properly with proper education and proper financial and practical help in building up a civil and economic infrastructure then they would arm them usefully. Giving them a chance to negotiate in a healthy reciprocal neighborly way with Israel. Israel has already provided some support and incentive by providing work and opportunity to Palestinians.

One thing is for sure so long as the Palestinians stay undereducated undernourished unorganized and undervalued by their own race, they will remain as prime fodder to take the pain of sacrifice and front the war on behalf of their more organized more educated better-fed warmongers in other parts of the Middle East.

What do some of their fellow Arab nations do for them? They keep their distance yet ship in weapons and funds for the Palestinian war chest and prolong hatred, dispute and division wherever they can. Where is the philanthropic influx of Arab scholars and businessmen and teachers and doctors who could help them organize and build a civil and economic infrastructure with a strong intelligent diplomatic core empowering them to negotiate a fair and mutually beneficial solution to their border disputes and develop a proper identity and a sense of self worth? They're thin on the ground and instead Palestine and her issues are brim full of people from the West mopping up and prolonging a victim mentality and displacing responsibility from Palestine itself escaping denial and calling on other developed Arab nations to help them help themselves.

Palestinians are simply not encouraged to be well organized enough to look after themselves and are therefore caught up as convenient pawns in a myriad of other crypto marxist agendas too. It is too easy for the Arab world to abstain from taking a convincing stance against the terrorist extremists and to leave the West wringing their hands. It is incumbent on the Arab world to step in and give practical help to such an oppressed people who are oppressed because of a role that is foisted upon them to act as the Vanguard in the fight to eradicate Israel.

It is very difficult for Israel to find a balance in having to act responsibly towards a people being cruelly utilized as a ‘Vanguard’ manipulated by a greater force to annihilate them and also remaining sympathetic to those people who are groomed to sacrifice their quality of life for Islam.

Therefore, unfortunately I guess, we can be fairly sure that the border disputes are more likely to be about strategically securing terrain so it is non-accessible for terrorists and weaponry rather than the normal luxury of who has this or that piece of land, which arable fields, or orchard or olive grove, or who should have the beach front houses. If only.

phil

sweetie ,george does not reply to questions that are too difficult -he just makes statements -please keep your sensible questions coming .Isn,t it amazing how a few line can say so much in the face of yards of nonsense .

War is Peace

Donna, I'm afraid I lost your justification for using the wall to annex land in there somewhere. The 'normal luxury of who has this or that piece of land' is an issue that needs to be settled before the conditions you describe can occur.
If the situation were reversed the Israeli people would not give up their national aspirations in exchange for jobs or even security for that matter.
Healthy reciprocality is not evidenced by the actions of Israel. When peace plans such as the Elon Plan are taken seriously by the Israeli establishment how can the Palestinians move forward along the lines you describe. Under this plan, the only certain way they will be allowed to stay in their homes with full rights is to convert to Judaism.
And before you say it the Palestinians are not responsible for the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries,and should not be punished for it.

Wm. Hazlitt

Stanley Jerusalem,
I have twice left a message to celebrate the fact that we agree on something: I can accept what you say in your last posting.

I am still not sure whether you acknowledge the facts I presented or choose to ignore them. Here are a couple to try to find out.

Israel destroyed the only power station in Gaza. This is not in dispute. Israel announced it to the world.

Dov Weisglass explained the effect Israel hoped its blockade would have: "it's like an appointment with a dietician. The Palestinians will get a lot thinner, but won't die." As an indication of the measures Israel has taken: Gaza requires 340 tons of flour a day for bread. By November 2007 Israel had cut the daily supply to 90 tons. With the power cuts in hospitals and the malnutrition, I am not sure how Mr. Weisglass can be sure there won't be deaths.

I am sure you believe in the rule of law. Both of these sample actions constitute a crime under international law.

Do you choose to recognize such facts in arriving at your opinions on Israel/Palestine, or do you choose to ignore them as inconvenient?

Donna Gardier

Phil:
And there are lots of questions about George methinks! However, I’d prefer chatting to Rab C Nesbit.

Thanks for your comment.

War is Peace:

I’m not justifying anything, I’m putting forward a point of view. It seems you may need to get into the habit of looking at different points of view much more carefully. You might find some answers in the layers of the argument.

phil

Donna that was a fine analysis-WIP has not or does not wish to understand the problems Israel faced -they did not start out in statehood to be in the position they are now ,they were to be "a light unto nations"-it didnt last long ,less than 24 hours before they were bombed and it has never stopped .Those that object to the wall need to understand the reasons for it -survival -regards phil

Adam B.

Ros Morris - an interesting insight. But positive stories about Israel don't fit the narrative of people like "war is peace," so they ignore it.

stanley Jerusalem

Wm. Hazlitt - Gaza's power comes principally from powers stations in Israel not from inside Gaza so the station to which you refer is in all probability a switching sub-station.As to the bags/sacks/tons of flour shipped across the Israel - Gaza border- well I suppose the Egyptians could, if they tried REEEEALY hard, squeeze a few bags across their border with Gaza. What? Didn't we realise Egypt had a common border with Gaza. Heavens to Murgatroyd.I
wonder flour doesn't come from the Palestinians 'brothers' in Egypts. I wonder. Nah!

Wm. Hazlitt

Stanley Jerusalem,

I'll take it then your answer is that you prefer to ignore inconvenient facts.

Two questions though:

1.Is there something odd about Israeli power generation that causes it to cut out periodically as it crosses into Gaza?

2.Who do you think Hosni Mubarak is more friendly with: a)Israel and its wealthy sponsor the US or b) Hamas aka the Muslim Brotherhood?

How foolish Dov Weisglass must feel. Senior advisor to Ariel Sharon AND Ehud Olmert, and still he doesn't realise the Palestinians of Gaza could break his blockade simply by turning to their Egyptian friends.

The Palestinians must be letting their children suffer the diseases of malnutrition just to make some cheap political point.

Well, it won't work, because we are going to ignore their plight, aren't we?

Wm. Hazlitt

I should also have said that the power plant in Gaza supplies one third of the electricity supply. for the other two thirds Gaza has to depend on Israel. The plant supplies electricity to Gaza City and to the pumps used for the water supply. The plant was bombed in 2006 and has been closed subsequently by Israel's embargo on fuel and spare parts. Whether or not you want to call this power plant a "switching sub-station", bombing it remains a crime under international law.

War is Peace

The question still remains about the wall and settlements. Any country has the right to build any type of wall they wish in their own territory, but to build it in their neighbour's is annexation.

Adam B.

War is Peace, Judea and Samaria does not belong to Israel's neighbours.

Lizzy

Dear George, you ducked and weaved and still haven't answered my question.

stanley Jerusalem

Just to clarify for the umpteenth time - Judea and Samaria are defined by cease-fire lines. They are not and never were any country's borders. EVER.
Anyone trying to aportion blame needs to start with the Glorious British Empire's abitrarily ceding parts of Judea and Samaria to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan during the Mandate years. No-one gave the Brits the right to transfer a Saudi Minor 'prince' north to Jordan and bestow a 'Kingdom' on him, but they did. Jordan and Transjordan were the result. No war, no conquest. Just British endeavour to get their feet under the Middle East Oil table. Pathetic and ultimately the origin of that bit of Israel. Now contested for ownership by Palestinians who didn't exist as a coherent ethnic, religious or national group in 1963 let alone 1922.
Their Egyptian self-appointed leadwer Ahmed Shukairy invented and adopted the Roman word [Palestine]in an attempt to unify and label the disparate group of refugees and local indegenes abandoned by the surrounding arab nations after two failed attempts to eliminate the UN- sanctioned State of Israel.

stanley Jerusalem

Wm. Hazlitt - Why should Israel bother to supply power to Gaza at all. They get little thanks from them. Come to that, Egypt view Hamas with as much friendship as do Israel so no love lost there either. Funny how the only friends Hamas appear to have are demonstrating brits who always 'support the underdog'. Bugger the facts, support the underdog is their watchword, and possibly yours too. I remain to be convinced.Interference with your own power supply ranks fairly low on the International Crime scales of values, I think. Anyway, why don't these Hamas-governed individuals employ the billions of dollars poured into them for creating a healthy and viable infrastructure? Oh I forgot, their leaders past and present have salted it all away in Swiss bank accounts for their retirement fund, bit like the directors of British banks. Nice people, all of them when they aren't trying to blow you up or take your home away. Am I digressing?

phil

Wm. Hazlitt-your obfuscations are amazing but mostly exactly that ,but maybe you can tell us all why the Palestinians are routinely treated in Israeli hospitals,and why more than a million live in Israel in full enjoyment of its facilities ,even serve in the army -they could leave if they wanted to ,but they do not -we await impatiently your answer,although Stanley seems to have your number .

stanley Jerusalem

Phil - I'm not impatient.

Wm. Hazlitt

I am only a visitor passing through, so I am not aware of what purpose this "Phil" serves. He appears to patrol the perimeter, leaving little deposits to mark it as his territory.

Stanley Jerusalem: Israel should bother with these people because it is the occupying power with the attendant obligations. And just to be clear, withdrawing to the border, blockading the territory, and calling it an enemy entity does not absolve Israel of it duties under international law.

phil

Wm. Hazlitt you no doubt would pass through most things quickly as certain things do ..Part of my purpose is to see those like you do not get a free ride at our expense ,but also to try to get a sensible answer from you and in that I routinely fail as I have done with you .It will be noted by most posters and your name will beadded to the role of --------

stanley Jerusalem

Wm. Hazlitt - Sophistry diguised as righteous indignation. Go peddle it to someone who is an ignorant xenophobe. You stand a better chance on such fertile and intellectually untroubled soil.

Wm. Hazlitt

Stanley Jerusalem, There are roughly equal numbers of Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews in the region. Some time they are going to have to agree how to live together as neighbours. It seems to me a first step beyond blind hatred is to learn the facts and try to understand the other side's position. We are all ignorant about things we ought to know. But to be ignorant deliberately and to be determined to remain so seems to me unwise.

Here is another fact. Nearly 50% of the population of Gaza are under 14 years of age. How can they be held accountable for the military wing of Hamas and punished?

P.S. which laws do you consider sophistry? all of them, some of them, just the ones that would constrain your behaviour?

stanley Jerusalem

Wm. Hazlitt - I embrace your aims but they are hampered by teaching primary school children in Gaza [and elesewhere in Arab lands] to hate and destroy Jews.That does not happen in Israeli schools or anywhere else in Israel. We are busy trying to live life not destroy it.

War is Peace

Stanley Jerusalem-
'Palestinians who didn't exist as a coherent ethnic, religious or national group in 1963 let alone 1922.'- I see you're not above a bit of sophistry yourself. They still lived on that piece of land you refer to as Judea and Samaria.

stanley Jerusalem

War is Peace - I wasn't advocating their slaughter. Their new leaders are.

Adam B.

War on peace, Jews lived on the piece of land you call Iraq, a quarter of Baghdad was Jewish. Now not one Jew lives in the whole of Iraq.

Are you as "concerned" for them?

Adam B.

Wm Hazlitt, the 14 year olds aren't being held accountable, however, Hamas terrorists are.

It's called war, it's messy, imprecise and tragically innocents get hurt. Perhaps, if Hamas stopped firing rockets (isn't THAT collective punishment against Israelis?) there would be no need for any military action to try to stop them. (Hamas has fired 100 rockets since the so-called "ceasefire.")

Is Israel supposed to just accept rockets being randomly fired at its citizens?

Wm. Hazlitt

Stanley Jerusalem, I accept your very reasonable response: hatred should not be taught Palestinian children; the Israeli people are trying to live their lives in peace and have every right to. Two points, however: As I understand it, Israeli children are not taught the whole truth about their history and about the Palestinian Arabs (I have not gone through an Israeli education so I may well be completely wrong). Secondly, the Israeli government on behalf of the Israeli people, and in particular the settlers, is not simply trying to live life. It continues, as it has throughout its history, to acquire more land and more resources for Israelis at the expense of the Palestinian Arabs and to take punitive measures against any Palestinain Arabs who protest or resist. In the interests of its people, the Israeli government has to take a different tack (or at lest that is what I maintain).

Wm. Hazlitt

Adam B. It may be the 14 year olds are not being held accountable, but they are being punished. By the laws of war this is not war; it is collective punishment, and a crime. Also, you are playing the game of "you atarted it" - is it really true that Israel has only ever taken military action when fired upon? And have you tried to monitor the Israeli breaches of the ceasefire? And, no, Israel is not supposed to accept rockets fired randomly at its citizens. When an extension of the ceasefire was on offer in November, do you think the best way to avoid rockets being fired at Israeli citizens was to break the ceasefire?

stanley Jerusalem

Wm. Hazlitt -
(I have not gone through an Israeli education so I may well be completely wrong).
Yup!

War is Peace

Adam B I certainly do not condone the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Muslim countries. Can you categorically state that you do not support the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homes. Seeing as you don't mind the annexation of their land, why not go the whole hog and expel them?

C. Gee

Wm.Hazlitt,
Please refrain for obtruding your idea of the "facts" while at the same time accusing your interlocutors of deliberate ignorance, or of "blind hatred" or failing to look at the opposing point of view. Israel and the West have not only understood the point of view of the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank, they have granted them the fiction of nationality and have bought into their "narrative". Israel's intellectual "elite" have insisted that the Arab narrative is included in the Israeli text books; Israel has accepted the Arab demand for Judenrein territory and the only ethnic cleansing Israel has perpetrated has been of Jews from Gaza. Your glib statements that Israel is in breach of "international law" or the "law of war" is ill-informed. Scholars of law can argue all sides of a law. Leftist and pro-Arab lawyers pursue their anti-Israel agenda in any court they can. The very fact that they bring their arguments solely against Israel and no other country (or Hamas or Hizbullah), should make one wary of regarding their arguments as dispositive. The BBC always refers to "illegal settlements" even when they are perfectly legal under treaty. The least you could do is acknowledge that Israel is "allegedly" in breach of international law. And what international law? Geneva Conventions? UN general assembly resolutions? The "Law of War"? Are they even applicable? I do know that Israel's record of trying to avoid civilian casualties at the expense of lost lives of its soldiers, its humane treatment of enemies at the expense of its own civilians, its continued monitoring of the legality of its own actions through its Supreme Court, its bringing to justice of soldiers in breach of proper conduct (far more harsh than its treatment of deserters or refuseniks), its very doctrine of purity of arms, are all evidence of humanity in war unmatched by any other country on this planet. On which side is the "blind hatred"? On which side is brutal indifference to Palestinian hardship? The idea that there is a symmetry between Hamas and Israel - "cycle of violence" stuff - is already an admission of dangerous silliness and deliberate ignorance.

Adam B.

War is Peace, I can categorically state it, because Palestinian Arabs were not ethnically cleansed. And its not "their" land, and Israel has not expelled them.

Got it?

Adam B.

Wm Hazlitt

Do you know a way in which military operations can be conducted against Hamas whithout any civilians being hurt, especially in light of the fact that Hamas uses human shields?

It is simply impossible, and the logical conclusion of your argument that "it's collective punishment" is that Israel should never take any action against Hamas at all, because civilians will inevitably be hurt, resulting in howls of "collective punishment". You say Israel is not meant to accept a neverending barrage of rockets - it's just that you don't believe it should actually do anything about it.

And as for the ceasefire, Israel offered to extend it - it was Hamas who rejected it. They rejected it, and then moaned that the Israelis had the audacity to respond to its rockets.

How absurd.

Adam B.

Additionally, war is peace, you say you do not condone the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Muslim countries. But you don't bring the subject up either. In short, it doesn't seem as important to you as the narrative of Palestinian "victimhood." These threads are full of people talking about Palestinian refugees, with ne'er a word spoken about Jewish ones.

Why, I wonder?

stanley Jerusalem

War is Peace - How many times does it need to be said. There never was a Palestinian land or people. The victims languishing in appalling conditions in Gaza are the detritus of refugees abandoned by their "Champions" who assured them back in 1948 that the despised Jews would be swept into the sea. Since that attempt failed, this miserable remnant have been left to rot in their shanty towns and denied the opportunity to integrate into a larger area or yet leave to join other arab peoples in other arab states. Those arabs which did embrace the new State of Israel [ all 1 million or so of them] have been absorbed into the state together with Beduin and Druze, some of whom actually serve and fight in the Israeli Armed Forces. I assure you that few of them are eager to embrace their 'brethren' in Fatah, Hamas or Hizballa.

Wm. Hazlitt

Stanley Jerusalem,
...nevertheless I do recall a TV programme comparing and contrasting the teaching of history to Palestinian children and to Israeli children. The Israeli textbooks were at least as grotesque as the Palestinian. It reminded me, in exaggerated form, of the history I was taught as a Protestant and the history my friend was taught as a Catholic. Can it be that Israeli education has become more liberal or ecumenical since them (outside the Orthodox schools)? Or might it be that you have invested so heavily in the version of history taught in the schools that you can't imagine the possibility that it might be only half the truth or even a distortion of the truth?

Adam B.

Wm Hazlitt, that's utter nonsense. Israeli schoolbooks are nothing like Palestinian schoolbooks, which preach outright racism and hate, and if you can't tell the difference, then you either have no sense of perspective or else are being wilfully misleading.

War is Peace

Adam B-it is their land because they have lived there for several generations. Its just unfortunate for them that a 2000 year old text promises the land to a more powerful people who have few qualms about taking it from them.
I have no doubt you would not condone the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, as long as they shut up and accept that they are to be second class citizens in the state of Israel- and that not even the West Bank is to be considered 'their land'.
Stanley Jerusalem - I really have to commend your language- 'Detritus', 'miserable remnant'. Why not throw in sub-human for effect.

stanley Jerusalem

Wm. Hazlitt - it may well be impossible to answer " have you left off beating your wife?" questions.
You have your view and I don't.However, I would have thought that anything emanating from TV in the UK would be likely to have a hidden agenda which would invariably adopt the fashionable posture of Israel-bashing [except Sir David Attenborough's nature programmes].

Wm. Hazlitt

Stanley Jerusaelm, Fair point about the "wife-beating". I was partly going on my own experience of history, where the more I read conflicting accounts of events the more I had to revise my own firmly held but evidently not well founded opinions. (I find myself in the unusual position of defending British TV: the programme quoted from textbooks on the same set of issues; the textbooks were described as standard.) If your comments to War is Peace are representative, then I think my question has merit.

stanley Jerusalem

War is Peace - I was commiserating with them but you are too biased to notice.It is their own leaders who treat them as sub-human detritus. Cattle-fodder worthy of being put in the front line of battle to serve as scapegoats to deter the enemy or employ as casualty statistics.

stanley Jerusalem

War is Peace and Wm. Hazlitt - Perhaps I need to repeat that
those arabs who did embrace the new State of Israel [ all 1 million or so of them] have been absorbed into the state together with Beduin and Druze, some of whom actually serve and fight in the Israeli Armed Forces. I assure you that few of them are eager to embrace their 'brethren' in Fatah, Hamas or Hizballa.
It was the remnant who found themselves subject to Egyptian and Jordanian control and didn't manage to rejoin their relatives beyond the cease-fire lines whom I pity.Remember they are behind case-fire lines - never designated as borders. The only attempt to establish that was rejected by the arabs of course. To have accepted the outcome of the wars they started would have been to lose face and they would sooner lose their children and their grandchildren than lose face. It's a culture thing. We westerners don't understand it. We know that compromise is for the greater good they don't see it that way. Avoiding loss of face is the most important war to win.
Of course you have taken my adjectives and claimed they are perjorative and probably racist. So much for balanced argument.

phil

C. Gee an exceptional post -well done !

phil

Wm. Hazlitt-your obfuscations are amazing but mostly exactly that ,but maybe you can tell us all why the Palestinians are routinely treated in Israeli hospitals,and why more than a million live in Israel in full enjoyment of its facilities ,even serve in the army -they could leave if they wanted to ,but they do not -we await impatiently your answer,although Stanley seems to have your number .

I asked you this earlier but all that was received was a rude response not even addressed to me -I realise I get under the skins of those that write like you and I admit it is my purpose .Stanley has been very patient with you ,to his credit -WIP continues to write his nonsense ,but I must ask you ,what is your purpose here?and why are you unable to answer my question above ? I suppose you will not reply as I am not as nice as Stanley to those that write to wound and not to debate .or inform .

sj perelman

This is near the end of a long stream that started with the BMJ.
Medical readers will know that the Lancet - the other "doyen" of medical journalism in the UK, is no less rabid in its abuse of Israel. Both are incorrigibly biassed. They have total control of the material they publish and feel no desire to be even-handed in their exposition of events in the middle east.
I have urged all libraries I use to remove the Lancet from their shelves and save money, and promote fairness. The medical scientific content of the Lancet and BMJ is pathetic compared with the "real" medical journals of the world now - almost all of which are American or even European. Unfortunately, the UK is a spent power in medical journalism because of the leftist, PC approach of the editors of these two once honored Journals, that shine only in memories of my past as a medical student forty years ago.

stanley Jerusalem

sj perelman - " because of the leftist, PC approach of the editors of these two once honored Journals, that shine only in memories of my past as a medical student forty years ago."

Was that before or after you wrote Monkey Business and A Night at the Opera?

C. Gee

Honestreporting.com has a follow-up to the BMJ/Honest Reporting spat. An independent media analyst found that the BMJ is obsessed with Israel/Palestine, at the expense of far greater, nastier "public health" situations, e.g. Darfur (Arab v. Black).
Thank you, Phil.

War is Peace

If you are all so worried about Palestinian education, why did the air force destroy the American School, which had a Western style curriculum.

Adam B.

War is peace (what is THAT meant to mean?)

It is NOT "their" land, any more than Jews can claim that a quarter of Baghdad is "Jewish land" because Jews lived there for generations. Generations of immigrants have lived in parts of the UK. Does that make this "their" land?

Palestine was never a country. Never, not at any time, ever. Please do some research. Meanwhile, Israeli Arabs enjoy rights in Israel not afforded to them in any Arab nation. They are full citizens, and enjoy equality in law. The Bedouin even volunteer for the IDF, as do Druze Muslims (who often face discrimination in neighbouring Arab countries). Jews were and are treated as dhimmis throughout the Islamic world, unless they have already been ethnically cleansed - not that you would bring that subject up.

Please stick with facts, rathetr than knee jerk anti-Israel fantasies.

Adam B.

One more thing, War is Peace, if the Palestinians are being "ethnically cleansed" as you outrageously claim, how is it that the palestinian population of gaza and Judea and Samaria is exploding? How is it that the Arab population of israel has consistently grown over the past 60 years?

Some "ethnic cleansing."

Meanwhile, Jewish communities of Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Yemen, Iraq, Iran and Tunisia have been decimated, most ceasing to exist at all. No Jew is allowed in Saudi Arabia, and it is illegal to be a jewish citizen of Jordan (a relatively "moderate" case).

Isn't that racist, and ethnic cleansing?

Wm. Hazlitt

Stanley Jerusalem,
Your remarks on Israeli Arabs do not appear consistent with the history of their treatment. Your remarks on the Bedouin are particularly odd.

The Israeli government has over the years made persistent efforts to evict Bedouin farming communities in the Negev from their "unrecognised" villages and to "concentrate" them in seven "planned townships". "Unrecognised" villages are by law deprived of all basic services, such as water, elctricity, clinics and schools, and the houses are subject to summary demolition at the whim of the Israeli authorities. In 2003 Ariel Sharon announced that millions of dollars would be allocated over five years to force the relocation, classifying the Bedouin as "trespassers" on state land. From 2002 the Interior Ministry took to destroying the Bedouins' crops by spraying thousands of acres with herbicides (a practice stopped by the courts). The Jewish National Fund meanwhile approved plans for a network of more than 30 private farms that would control large swathes of the Negev for Jews only. the ministerial committee overseeing the new settlements agreed they should be designed to block "Bedouin expansion".

The Druze are an interesting case: in 1948 they very quickly saw who had the military superiority and were bound to win, and sided with them.

My point remains pertinent: study the history.

Wm. Hazlitt

Adam B. You say that Palestine was never a country. I take it you mean an independent sovereign state? Is that required for its inhabitants to have rights?

Would it not be reasonable to recognize as many Zionist did at the time that Jewish nationalism and Palestinian Arab nationalism both emerged at the same time. Zionsim prevailed not because it had the better claim but because it had the help of the imperial powers.

stanley Jerusalem

Wm. Hazlitt - "Would it not be reasonable to recognize as many Zionist did at the time that Jewish nationalism and Palestinian Arab nationalism both emerged at the same time. Zionism prevailed not because it had the better claim but because it had the help of the imperial powers."

There has never ever been a movement of Palestinian Arab nationalism unless you are attempting to categorise the PLO terrorists who hijacked and blew up international airliners and those heroes at Munich who murdered Israeli Olympic athletes.Or perhaps we must mention Mr. Klinhofer's murderers. Heros and nationalists all.The territory refused by the arab states after the 1947/8 UN Partition Plan was fought over by legally- constituted citizens of the new State of Israel. There never was a new State of Palestine and there still isn't. As far as Western assistance is concerned, Israel fought the combined forces of 750 million arabs' armies in 1948 and won without help from the West.Not even with boatloads of rusty rifles such as were sent by the USA to Britain before Pearl Harbour forced them into the war with us. And then followed 25 years of Russian invovement with the armed forces of Egypt and Syria, not that it did them much good. I.e. the Russians who didn't get a warm-water port and the Egyptians and Syrians who comprehensively lost every war they waged against Israel.The only constant factor during this entire period and up till the present day has been the remnant of arabs left behind by these wars who continue to live in dire conditions thanks to their arab brethren who maintain these conditions with no hope of improvement. Why do you believe that Israel should better their lot if the surrounding arab nations refuse to do so?
You really don't understand the ethic of loss of face, do you?

Wm. Hazlitt

Stanley Jerusalem, You really must go back and study the history books, from historians with as many different interpretations based on the record as you can, and with an open mind. I will leave you to it.

stanley Jerusalem

Wm. Hazlitt
March 4th, 2009 1:54pm - "I will leave you to it."

So that's your answer is it? No comments on the idea of loss of face. Might there be a possibility that after I have read everything I would still have the same confidence that the opinions I hold now are correct? Are you hoping for a holiday from critical comments on your postings?
Were I not more polite I might suggest that you occupy your time more fruitfully in consulting the very sources which you have recommended to me.However, I don't give a flying f**k what you think. I just reserve the right to shoot down all the seditious claptrap you come up with.

phil

Stanley Jerusalem don.t be too hard on WH he is reading history where the Arab armies won, and where they did not leave the unfortunate people who lived under the yoke of the ottoman empire and latterly the mandate ,in such dire circumstances :.the fact that they could and should have become Israeli citizens as indeed they were invited to eludes him -sadly we are just Jewish know alls ,which will no doubt comfort him .---------

Whilst those like him continue to pervert the truth there is little hope of any settlement of the problems ,of which both peoples suffer .What motivates him is beyond me as the only ones he will persuade are the likes of the laird ,.the blade ,and of course the pearl of Cardiff -carl

War is Peace

Adam B,
I mean 'their land' both as in the private property of individuals and 'where they used to live', to put it as simply as possible for you. For you to say there is no Palestinian nation now after 60 years of common and unique experience is a blatant denial of the facts. They want a country- what are you going to do about it? Restoring 'Samaria' and 'Judea' to their biblical selves could only be acheived by ethnic cleansing.

Donna Gardier

To: Wm. Hazlitt on Mar 4th @ 1.54pm

You make a suggestion to Stanley in Jerusalem. Someone living in the thick of it, in the here and now and you suggest he takes his eye off the ball (or the rockets looming overhead) and starts scanning history books instead!? .

We have choices. One is to regain our instincts and use a proper sense of reason. The corollary of what is happening here and now is what needs to be addressed. Our perspective has the advantage of being in the here and now. Any situation is a sum of its parts and surely part of being a grown up is to face up to what needs to be judged and acted upon – now? Facing up to the corollary and dealing with it honestly must be more necessary than resorting to justification for reactionary scapegoating by citing external sources such as history books as if they are the Holy Grail? Especially as the information highway provides a constant stream of propaganda that is much more likely to be a reference point than the perfect most well written unbiased book full of unquestionable facts, knowledge and perception, if it exists, or ever existed.

Alternatively one can, whilst sitting in a comfortable armchair, disappear into a pile of books (or cyberspace) and scan miles of secondary evidence and carefully collated statistics and carefully worded facts. All of which are very easily and unfortunately very often, equally carefully crafted (by various interlopers) to seize the hearts and minds of as many impressionable people as they can. The more ripe minds will belong to those who are driven to find a cause, and succour for boosting their sense of moral superiority. It doesn’t take enormous insight to realise that perspectives therefore will be tainted more negatively than positively especially as there are too many insidious power brokers determined to manipulate the world order to their own advantage.

Know Thyself?

Henry Sidgwick

To the Moderator,It is my own fault that I have followed these exchanges in the hope that Stanley Jerusalem might produce a reasoned response to some of the points. It is not for you to teach him but for him to learn the rules of rational debate (which will involve him in some intellectual humility). But I do want to ask you about the abuse and expletives. It may be you let them through because they show us the man. But does it not lower the tone? Is this meant to be a debate or a bar room squabble?

stanley Jerusalem

Henry Sidgwick - The employment of invective as a debating tool is not without merit if used sparingly however after 70 years I remain without experience of a bar room squabble. Perhaps you might enlighten me?
I bow to your inferior ignorance.

stanley Jerusalem

Donna Gardier - Well said! Some of the cotributors to this blog appear to be bulldozer drivers with no visible targets.

phil

Henry Sidgwick-take your thumb out of your mouth-these threads are for grown ups and Stanley interests all of us with good humour and common sense .an item that often is lacking here.send some views and knowledge not complaints please .

Henry Sidgwick

Stanley Jerusalem, When you say you bow to my "inferior" ignorance, do you mean that your ignorance is superior? Invective is fine, and I have enjoyed several of your efforts, but don't confuse it with effing and blinding.

Adam B.

War is peace

What common experience?

And as for your assertion that it is "their" land through private ownership - you are, in most cases, sorely mistaken.

And again you bring the discussion round to Palestinian refugees exclusively, and ignore Jewish ones in the equation.

"They want a country" Why didn't they accept the numerous offers of one then? Because destroying Israel is more important than establishing a new state.

stanley Jerusalem

Henry Sidgwick -Psalms CXV v.5

War is Peace

The common experience of occupation.
So if you don't have title to land, its up for grabs? Common land is belonged to the community that live on it.
It is effective annexation when an occupying power take occupied common land to give away to their own citizens.
Settlements swing the democratic balance of power in the occupied territories and reduce the effective area which will be considered in any future state, as well as being efective theft of a community's common land.
What numerous offers of a country?

Adam B.

War is Peace - Gaza isn't occupied. Nor is much of Judea and Samaria. It isn't "common land", it is state land.

Please do some research about offers of a country - it's freely available information. The last (not the first) was in 2000 - Arafat responded by killing 1000 Israelis.

War is Peace

Adam B,
You're not really following this argument, just nitpicking. Gaza was occupied until recently, therefore its occupation is part of the shared experience of Palestinians.
If the Occupied Territories are now Israeli state land, then it must have been annexed as it has not always been Israeli state land, no?
What you seem to be saying is that any piece of land not actually owned by a palestinian with a title deed is legitimately up for grabs by the Israeli state, and by extension by settlers. Can you not see the injustice of this?
I think you could do some research yourself and look into the reality of the situation in which these offers of a country were made and realise that Israel was not blameless in these deals falling through. If you prefer to stick to media that merely confirms your own world view carry on.

Adam B.

War is peace

State land means the land of the governing body. Land which was not (and has never been)privately owned, therefore belonging to the Ottoman Empire until the end of WW1, then the British before 1948. Between 1948 and 1967, this land was occupied illegally by Jordan (in the case of Judea and Samaria) and Egypt (in the case of Gaza). This occupation by Jordan and Egypt had no legitimacy, not being part of the UN partition plan which was accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs, who rejected the notion of any Jewish state, irrespective of borders. These two countries, though occupying these lands, were never asked to relinquish them for a "Palestinian" state - as the concept did not exist until the 1960's. Indeed, Palestinian nationalism was an invention of the 1960's.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why Israel is now present in Judea and Samaria. The Arab world repeatedly tried to annihilate Israel, and launched several wars to that end, only to lose every time.

I take it you are as concerned about the plight of Sudeten Germans, and ethnic Germans of Prussia, both of whom were actually ethnically cleansed at the end of WWII? (I can imagine your blank look). Please explain the moral difference.

I am well aware of arguments put against Israel (I do not only read media with which I agree - why do you say that?) I simply find it amazing that people who are historically ignorant have no compunction about mouthing off on subjects about which they clealy have little (and selective) knowledge. I am afraid it is you who has fallen hook line and sinker for the received wisdom of the mainstream media, and do not question why this land is labelled "Palestinian", nor see beyond the propaganda. The Arab world is more concerned with destroying Israel than permanently settling the Palestinian refugees. The Jewish refugees from Muslim lands have been settled by Israel. Why can't the Arab world do the same for the Palestinian Arab refugees? Do you ask yourself these questions?

War is Peace

The Sudeten Germans expulsion was at the end of the massive trauma of WWII and has been forgotten because of the great national shame that Germans feel for starting that war. It was still an injustice for those who actually got expelled.
Just because it was acceptable after world war II does not mean does not make it OK forever after.

stanley Jerusalem

Adam B.
March 8th, 2009 12:58pm

Well said Sir! Trouble is you are preaching to the equivalent of a brick wall. The opposition will wait till you finish and then proceed to repeat all of the codswallop they have previously relied upon to make their case without any reference to what you have written though it is the plain unvarnished truth.After all if they repeat it sufficiently often it must be true, mustn't it?

Adam B.

War is peace

You are correct, it has been forgotten because the Germans were the aggressor and started the war in the first place - and also the Germans in question have resettled within Germany and got on with their lives for the past 64 years.

Why do we take a different view in the Middle East?

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B. You can help me with a couple of questions. At the last count, how many wars have the Arabs launched and how many Israel? And when you say the Jews (the Zionists, I take it) accepted the partition, do you mean they accepted it fully intending to remain within the borders designated in the plan and to retain the Arab population within the borders designated in the plan?

You are clearly expert in Ottoman property law. I can recommend a book that details how Israel used Ottoman law and various other stratagems to acquire land within Israel after 1948, and in the West Bank after 1967: "Access Denied" by Hussein Abu Hussein (a Palestinian Arab I grant you, but allowed to practice law within Israel, hence something of an expert on the subject).

One other small point: I am not sure yu are right that Palestinian nationalism was invented in the 1960s, any more than Zionist nationalism was invented in 1948. If you go back to accounts of life before 1948 you will find plenty of evidence of Palestinian nationalism. Indeed, they even had the temerity to ask the British to grant them self-determination.

War is Peace

Adam B,
Thank you for pointing me towards the story of the Sudeten Germans. I had heard of them and have seen evidence of their presence in deserted homesteads in Southern Bohemia, but never looked into their history.
After looking at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_from_Czechoslovakia
I wonder is it a good idea to compare Israel to the Czech government of that period.

Adam B.

Thanks Stanley, yes, unfortunately you are right. Lies repeated often enough tend to be believed by the ignorant.

stanley Jerusalem

Adam B - Problem is, after enough repetition they are also believed by nearly everyone else.

Henry Sidgwick - Palestine as an entity is ridden with alternative groupings claiming association whereas Zionism is enshrined in Jewish prayers in excess off 2000 years old.Not quite so recent.
[I don't know why I bother considering my first comment to Adam B.]

Adam B.

War is peace

Firstly, there are 1.2 million Arab citizens of Israel.

Secondly, the Arab population of Judea and Samaria has expanded dramatically since 1948.

How is the situation the same?

This converstaion runs in only one direction with you. Blame Israel, blame Israel, then blame Israel some more. So you continue to ignore the genuine ethnic cleansing of the Jews of Muslim countries. Are you aware that not so long ago, a quarter of Baghdad was Jewish - a QUARTER! Now not one single Jew lives in the whole of Iraq.

Of course you don't go on about that.

(As an aside, I couldn't care less about the Sudeten Germans and Prussians having to move, after their treatment of and crimes against the Poles and Czechs as sub-humans).

Adam B.

Hebry Sidgwick

Zionism dating from 1948?

Oh dear. PLEASE do some reading.

In response to your query, the Arab world has started every war against Israel. In fact, they are all the same ongoing war - only flare-ups.

Henry Sidgwick

Stanley Jerusalem,
Zionism emerged in the late 19th century as a political movement to establish a nation state for the Jews. Various locations were proposed, but ultimately Palestine was agreed to be most likely to enthuse supporters.

As I understand it, from reading Jewish authors, Eretz Israel has been revered throughout the ages by generations of Jews as a place of pilgrimage not a future secular state. Jewish tradition and religion clearly instruct Jews (so I am told) to await the coming of the promised Messiah at the end of times before they can return to Eretz Israel as a sovereign people in a Jewish theocracy, as the obedient servants of God (hence the objection of many Orthodox Jews to political Zionism).

While we are at it, you might like to explain your citation of Psalm 115 verse 5. You are obviously fair taken with it, as I notice you have cited it more than once. Unfortunately, at our church we were taught to sing the psalms but not always to understand them.

The verse is part of a description of the gods of the heathen/the nations/gentiles/goyim: they are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths but they speak not, eyes have they but they see not... The psalmist then says that the heathen are as challenged as their gods. Only those who worship the true God will flourish, since the Lord has given them the earth.

So what are you saying: that goyim do not understand because they do not worship the true God, or...?

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.
"Zionism dating from 1948" - do try to read what is written.

Are you saying that 1956, 1967, 1982 were all started by Arabs? Is there no end to their fiendish cunning! To trick Israel into preemptive attacks!

By the way, you should be more careful with your analogies. You appear to have told War is Peace that like the Sudeten Germans the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed, but like the Sudeten Germans they should get over it.

And I am still waiting to hear about the idyllic life the Bedouin live in their reservations.

stanley Jerusalem

Henry Sidgwick - "As I understand it, from reading Jewish authors, Eretz Israel has been revered throughout the ages by generations of Jews as a place of pilgrimage not a future secular state."
Since you claim to have chanted psalms with no understanding perhaps I might clarify a verse in Psalm 121. 'God is the shadow on my right hand'
The implication here is that God will help you if you make some attempt to help yourself. Along the lines of 'the shadow won't move unless I move.' You know the story of the man who prays that he may win the lottery and a Heavenly voice comes to him and says
" Meet me halfway and by a bloody ticket".
The desire for a return to Zion stretching back to the exile following the destruction of Jerusalem and the second temple by Titus in the year 70 C.E. enjoins Jews to pray for their return. This is not meant as a source of income for travel agents but a genuine attempt at resettling our former spiritual homeland.As for the spirit of enlightenment offered in Psalm CXV, that derives from the burden placed by God on the Jews of ancient times to be "A light to the nations". before dismissing this as megalomania you would do well to consider that three of the worlds great religions are founded on the Five Books of Moses.Whatever you might speculate as to the diverging paths that those religions have taken over the millenia you cannot deny the source of their inspiration and codification of laws upon which civilisations have been founded..

Adam B.

Henry, please read what you wrote - "any more than Zionist nationalism was invented in 1948."

At least you've backtracked on this ridiculous contention. Yet you simply don't understand that Zionism is the simple desire for the Jews to have their ancient homeland restored, and to have the right to self determination (a right you have no problem bestowing on others.)

I do indeed contend that the wars you cited were started by the Arab world. A war is not started simply by who fires the first shot - that is simplistic and blinkered. They are all part of the same war (the state of war between Israel and its neighbours was never rescinded - they were at war Henry, except with Egypt in 1982). The state of war between Israel and most of the Arab world (except Jordan and Egypt) exists to this day Henry. I repeat: once the Arab and wider Islamic world decides it can accept a Jewish state in the Middle East, there will be peace. There is no sign of this occurring in the near future.

And as for my analogy, you simply failed to understand it. I was highlighting the rank hypocrisy of War is peace, and all the others who scream about Palestinian refugees (whilst ignoring Jewish ones). I took a case where there was blatant ethnic cleansing, and contrasted it with their reaction to the Palestinians, who THEY CLAIM were ethnically cleansed (in my last post I demonstrated the folly of such thinking, and how the Arab population of Israel and Judea and Samaria has exploded) - a strange kind of "ethnic cleansing", wouldn't you say?

Adam B.

Stanley, I fear that Henry has been indoctrinated with nonsense, and won't shift from it.

stanley Jerusalem

Adam B.
March 10th, 2009 12:12am

"Stanley, I fear that Henry has been indoctrinated with nonsense, and won't shift from it."

My favourite epithet to cover such behaviour is "he's not listening. he's just rearranging his prejudices!.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.
Before we go any further, let us be clear about how the English language works: "I am not sure you are right that Palestinain nationalism was invented in the 1960s ANY MORE THAN Zionist nationalism was invented in 1948." In other words, Palestinain nationalism was NOT invented in the 1960s and Zionist nationalism was NOT invented in 1948.

I have not anywhere denied Israelis the right to self-determination. I still wonder why you deny it to Palestinain Arabs, or more importantly why Israel does. I have nowhere denied that Israel exists and that the Israeli people have the same rights as anyone else. I still do not understand why ancient history justifies current actions, and I wonder whether you think it a univesral rule or one unique to Israel.

You notion that whoever starts a war it is always the fault of one side is difficult to maintain. I will continue in my belief supported by the contemporary statements of the Israeli generals, and even the Israeli politicians (because the generals do sometimes keep them partially informed). By the way, belief supported by reputable evidence is not indoctrination.

As for your claim that Palestinian Arabs were not ethnically cleansed, the record as it is found in the Israeli archives for 1947-48 gives you the lie. The Israelis even used codenames like bi'ur hametz. The fact that those evicted went on to have families does not alter the fact of cleansing.

henry Sidgwick

Stanley Jerusalem,
Just to be clear: you are telling me that the following is just wrong, "Eretz Israel has been revered throughout the ages by generations of Jews as a place of pilgrimage not a future secular state. Jewish tradition and religion clearly instruct Jews to await the coming of the promised Messiah at the end of times before they can return to Eretz Israel as a sovereign people in a Jewish theocracy, as the obedient servants of God (hence the objection of many Orthodox Jews to political Zionism)."

Thank you for your exegesis of the psalms. It is still not entirely clear why you cited psalm 115.

And why is it you and Adam B. break off at regular intervals to congratulate each other and commiserate on the foolishness and bigotry of those who challenge what you say. You risk appearing insufferably smug.

stanley Jerusalem

Darling henry! Sweetie-Pie; I am willing to take the risk.
Like any religious doctrine, that of Judaism admits of several interpretations and you have chosen that which the Jewish detractors of Zionism have adopted. This surprisingly places them in bed with Hamas, Fatah and Dinnerjacket and they are to be seen represented in their courts and at their demonstrations.That they are viewed by rank and file Jews as well as ultra-orthodox Jews as some form of Quislings does not deny them their belief in their interpretations, only their peculiar choice of fellow-supporters. The vast majority of both secular and orthodox Jews would never allow themselves to appear to give succour to the likes of Dinnerjacket let alone the Fatah or Hamas organisations.

stanley Jerusalem

henry Sidgwick
March 10th, 2009 1:27pm

"Stanley Jerusalem,
Just to be clear: you are telling me that the following is just wrong,Eretz Israel has been revered throughout the ages by generations of Jews as a place of pilgrimage not a future secular state."

Yes.

Adam B.

Henry, your post of 8.53 did appear to negate Zionism. I am glad you believe otherwise.

Neither I, nor Israel, denies a state to the Palestinian Arabs. Indeed, one already exists, called Jordan, which comprised almost three quarters of Palestine's pre-1922 borders. The majority population of Jordan is Palestinian Arab (although the Monarchy is a Hashemite, and thankfully moderate, implant from Saudi Arabia). If we are talking about establishing a second Palestinian Arab state, I accept this notion, as does Israel - but on one condition: that this state is peaceful, and does not become a future Gaza, with a fundamentalist Islamist government which fires missiles indiscriminately into Israel, or from where an army of suicide bombers crosses the border to kill Israelis.

There has been no negotiating partner on the Palestinian side, no-one who has acted in good faith, or who promotes moderation and tolerance in Palestinian society. Israel has put a Palestinian state on the table many times - the last in 2000, and each has resulted in Palestinian violence against Israel.

As for your baseless accusation about ethnic cleansing, what are we talking here? Are you going to point to one particular document which questions whether there is an instance of it here, a possibility of it there?

Let's get this clear - there was no widespread ethnic cleansing. I notice you do not refer to Israel's sizeable Arab minority, whilst you ignore the jewish refugees from Arab nations. If we're going to rtalk about refugess, fine, but let's talk about ALL of them, including the Jewish ones. It is the one way direction of your conversation which betrays an agenda.

You also have not absorbed the notion that the Arab-Israeli wars are all part of the same ongoing war - i.e. a genocidal Islamic world intent on annihilating a Jewish presence in the Middle East - or rather anywhere on earth.

Henry Sidgwick

Stanley Jerusalem,
Not entirely coherent, but never mind.

I am still none the wiser as to why you thought it a good idea to remind me that the gods of the heathen/nations/gentiles have mouths but they speak not; eyes have they, but they see not, because they are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. But it was no doubt meant to be edifying, so thank you.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.
Telling the Arabs in the West Bank, Gaza, Lebanon etc. (and in Israel, according to an increasing number of Israeli politicians) to go and live in Jordan where they belong is surely a bit like telling the Scots to go back to Ireland or the Northern Irish Protestants to go back to Scotland, or any number of other such historical absurdities.

I have a feeling I have read your account of Israel's offers of a state to the Palestinians before. We should agree to differ.

I am sure you will find the documents you are demanding in the IDF Archives, the Central Zionist Archives, and the Hagana Archives. They are also quoted by several Israeli and Palestinian historians. The ethnic cleansing is a matter of record.

I agree that sll refugees should be mentioned. By the way, I notice you earlier suddenly went off the idea of discussing the Palestinians within Israel and their treatment after 1948. Are you saying they're existence disproves ethnic cleansing?

I suggest you read in more detail about the Arab-Israeli Wars and how likely the Arabs were to achieving the aim you allege, even assuming it was any part of the plans of those actually with any power. As you will notice if you read the record of Ben Gurion's sayings and doings, there is a great difference between what politicians say to various audiences and what they actually do.

stanley Jerusalem

Henry Sidgwick
March 10th, 2009 10:29pm

Stanley Jerusalem,
Not entirely coherent, but never mind.

What precisely is incoherent about " yes?"

Henry Sidgwick

Stanley Jerusalem,
In one message you say there are many interpretations of which this is one. Half an hour later you say it is simply wrong.

Adam B.

Henry, I did not tell anyone to go and live in Jordan. What on earth do you mean?

Ethnic cleansing is not a matter of record, and yet again you show your bias by only referring to the Palestinians and not the Jewish refugees. It's like you can't help yourself.

Consider this: there are 1.2 million Arab citizens of Israel. Not so long ago, a quarter of Baghdad was Jewish. That's a QUARTER Henry. Now not one single Jew lives in the whole of Iraq. Who do you think has indulged in ethnic cleansing Henry?

Your last paragraph truly strains any credibility. Jews have a problem you see - they tend to believe it when someone openly declares their intention to exterminate them. Such were the threats coming out of every Arab capital on the eve of the Six Day War. The Jews will not lie down and die to please western lefties - get used to it.

You need to look at the whole picture.

stanley Jerusalem

Henry Sidgwick
March 11th, 2009 1:09pm

Stanley Jerusalem,
"In one message you say there are many interpretations of which this is one. Half an hour later you say it is simply wrong."
Correct, it is wrong. They can't all be correct and a basic rule in Jewish Law study reinforces this despite the small faction* of the gentlemen of the extreme right siding with Dinnerjacket et al.
Remember'My son Jonny is in step and the rest of the regiment isn't.'
Picking on the *Neturei Karta version is cherry picking gone barmy.

Adam B.

Stanley, Henry seems to have disappeared.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.
I have not disappeared. I wrote a detailed rebuttal of your previous piece, plus an apology for misreading and misunderstanding what you said about Jordan. But it disappeared into the aether. I do not have the heart to rewrite it all, especially as regardless of what I write we will continue to disagree. What I will say is that denial of the ethnic cleansing of 1948 is not a sound basis for moral righteousness.

Henry Sidgwick

Stanley Jerusalem,
I will put to one side all the volumes with authoritative sounding titles like the "Oxford Companion to Judaism" and the "Routledge Introduction to Judaism" etc. and move on to the more interesting question: what is the nature of the right this longing for Jerusalem gave Zionists to colonize Palestine? and is it a right unique to Zionists or is there a comparable right bestowed on other groups? I acknowledge this is a question of mainly historical interest as it applies to Zionism, unless it influences the attitudes of Israelis and Palestinians now - nevertheless, it is still of some interest.

stanley Jerusalem

Pity.

Adam B.

Henry, espousing libels against the Jewish State, whilst continuing to ignore the widespread ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Islamic world (why can't you talk about this?) is a complete inversion of morality.

stanley Jerusalem

My 'pity' posting referred to Adam B's 6.58 posting.

Henry - The historical significance of the desire to resettle The Promised Land is just that; RESETTLE being the key word. Airy references to what happened too long ago to be of any importance or relevance may have little significance to those of other races but to Jews it is of immense significance. Based on a previous occupation of that geographical area, the Jews claim to it stands head and shoulders over territories occupied by those who have won by conquest or simply absorbed their neighbour's territory.What would you do, Henry, were you to return from 4 weeks in the Bahamas to discover someone living in your house? Might you feel that it was your own fault for leaving it unoccupied? Well the Jews exiled by Rome didn't go on holiday and the Russian and Polish Jews returning in the 1880's were'nt returning from holiday. Also there have been Jews living there continuously since the year 70C.E. so why do you dispute or deride their claim?

Henry Sidgwick

Stanley Jerusalem,
Is this kind of claim allowable to any other group, or is it only allowable to Zionists, because they feel it has immense significance to them? What sort of a claim is it? This is a question, not an expression of derision.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.
I did acknowledge that Jews were expelled from Iraq and Egypt and I did say that any ethnic cleansing is wrong. (I would include Sudeten and Prussian Germans.) My comments disappeared into the aether.

It is a misreading of the historical documents so odd as to appear wilful to call the ehtnic cleansing of 1948 a libel on the Yishuv and Israel. I can't think of a state entirely innocent of crime and atrocity. Israel is no different.

Adam B.

Henry, we will have to disagree about the so-called ethnic cleansing. All I can say is that it is a strange kind of ethnic cleansing where the ethnic group in question keeps expanding its population.

My problem with your posts is that they only run in one direction - yes, you say you are against the ethnic cleansing of Jews form the Islamic world, but only when this is drawn to your attention; you don't go on about it (unlike your obvious sympathies with the Arab Palestinians). It is what you choose to say, and what you omit, which betrays a double standard.

stanley Jerusalem

Henry Sidgwick - At what stage does a war for your very survival become defined as ethnic cleansing given that your adversary may be defined by an ethnic description. Surely a continuation of the 'ethnic cleansing' after the war has ceased would be a justifiable description but, all other things beeing equal, only Egypt and Jordan have made peace with Israel and the others either choose not to or question Israel's right to exist at all.In such circumstances even your description of ethnic cleansing flies out of the window.We are at war with this lot and when we kill them in self-defence this is not ethnic cleansing. Coy descriptions of the many thousands of rockets launched from Gaza over the past years as being "home-made" does not diminish either their effectiveness to destroy and maim or to terrify and traumatise but the media and their sponsors would have us believe that this was not so.Operation Cast Lead was meant to diminish this flow of rockets and it has. The fact that they do continue is a measure of the intransigence and stupidity of our enemies despite the claim by Hamas before the weekend that they were not authorised, whatever that may mean, if anything.The scale with which Israel responded has been described as disproportionate. Is there some internationally accepted sliding scale of proportionality or are we dealing with concepts like slightly pregnant here?

Adam B.

Stanley, great post!

I think Henry really has disappeared this time!

stanley Jerusalem

Careful Adam or we'll be accused of belonging to a mutual admiration society!

Henry Sidgwick

Stanley Jerusalem and Adam B.

Such absolutely wonderful and insightful and altogether spiffing postings from both of you! An absolute honour to read them!

In 1948,the Zionist/Israeli politicians and military drew up detailed plans of which Arab villages to clear(the terms most frequently used were tihur, biur, and nikkuy). At the end of the war, more than 750k Palestinian Arabs were refugees. Only 150k remained. Somehow the plans had got themselves implemented and the villages were emptied. Do you insist this was not ethnic cleansing simply because the 150k were thougtless and feckless enough to carry on breeding?

I will not bother with the irony of your "double standards".

Enough. I will leave you to bathe in the refulgence of each other's admiration.

Adam B.

Henry,

yup, still running in one direction i.e. let's ignore the ethnic cleansing of the Jews whilst repeatedly levelling this baseless accusation at the Jews. If you do it long enough, maybe we'll forget about the Jews expunged from the Islamic world altogether.

About 1948, it's called fighting Henry. There was a war in Palestine when the British left. There was no war in Iraq or Yemen, yet the Jews were thrown out (or treated so abysmally that staying wasn't much of an option).

And it is interesting to note that you omit the calls by the Arab leaderships of surrounding nations, and of the Palestinian Arabs themselves, to leave Palestine because they would return as triumphant victors over the bones of dead Jews.

Pity for you their plan didn't work.

You're like listening to a broken record.

And I like your door slam at the end. How...mature.

Adam B.

stanley, I think we've annoyed him.

How will I sleep tonight?