A less than engaging strategy
A couple of weeks ago, there were claims on Panorama and in the Guardian that the government was about to make a drastic change to its strategy for tackling Muslim extremism in Britain. According to these claims, it realised it had made a catastrophic error in identifying extremism with violence, thus ignoring the conveyor-belt of extreme Islamist ideas which is radicalising ever rising numbers of young British Muslims -- and, worse still, engaging people with those extremist ideas as government advisers on combating Islamist violence. At the time, I expressed scepticism about such an outbreak of realism and suggested it was more likely that an argument was going on in Whitehall between these two factions.
On Wednesday evening, the Communities Secretary Hazel Blears delivered a major speech on the subject which, far from presaging a change in strategy, was a defence of the status quo. But it was so incoherent and nodded simultaneously at so many competing arguments that it seems even more likely that, just a few weeks before the government is set to announce the second phase of its counter-extremism strategy, the argument behind the scenes about the direction it should take is indeed still raging.
The essence of the muddle in this speech was her blurring of the distinction between moderate and extremist Muslims, and between tackling only violent extremism (as at present) and tackling extremist ideas. At one point early on in the speech she seemed to well understand the key point that until now the security world has denied – that it is not enough to tackle terrorism, because extremist ideas by people who are not themselves violent nevertheless act as a continuum of prejudice, hatred, sedition and violence:
But the question is the extent to which politically-extreme groups such as Hizb ut-Tahrir contribute to an environment which makes violence more acceptable or justifiable, makes individuals more susceptible to committing acts of violence, and whether there is a symbiotic relationship between groups whose hate is expressed in words, or whose support for terrorism or suicide bombing is confined to the Middle East but not Britain, and those whose hate is expressed in violent actions. For example the Muslim Brotherhood is not a terrorist organisation, but it supports terrorist organisations such as Hamas in Gaza.
Indeed. And so did that mean that the government would now treat the Muslim Brotherhood as beyond the pale and stop throwing money at them and employing them as government advisers in the wholly misguided belief that they were the antidote to terror? Well no. Because although the common threads in this ‘network of violence and hatred’ were
a belief in the supremacy of the Muslim people, in a divine duty to bring the world under the control of hegemonic Islam, in the establishment of a theocratic Caliphate, and in the undemocratic imposition of theocratic law on whole societies: these are the defining and common characteristics of the disparate strands of this ideology here and around the world,
nevertheless this was all a
twisted reading of Islam
which was not shared by the vast majority of British Muslims who
oppose the single narrative promulgated by Al-Qaeda, and certainly oppose violence.
But she had just gone to some lengths to explain that the problem was not just al Qaeda but also people who did not support violence but the ‘political Islamisms’ whose extremist ideas helped promote that violence. So what was she going to do about them – the ‘political Islamists’ -- was what we now needed to know.
But she didn’t tell us. Instead, she retreated to the old comfort zone of the ‘moderate majority’ and the need to engage with and encourage the mainstream Muslim community so that violence would not take further root there. And then her speech started skidding all over the road:
You can see the potential dangers inherent in this approach. Every minister is well aware of them. It involves engaging with organisations and individuals with whose views we disagree vehemently, who, for example, have unacceptable attitudes towards women, Jews, or gay and lesbian people. As a Government anchored in the European social democratic tradition, we place great store in equality, women's rights, anti-racism, and so on.
So there is a need for moral clarity, for a clear dividing line between what we consider acceptable, and what we consider beyond the pale.
We are clear that engagement is not the same as endorsement. I know our political opponents will seek to make hay with this: they will say that somehow engaging with groups with extremist views shows a lack of proper understanding of them, that we're being hoodwinked, used, or exploited by extremists, or that we don't care enough about anti-Semitism, sexism or homophobia. This is at the core of the argument of, for example, Melanie Phillips.
But if we leave the field clear to extremists, without any engagement at all, we embolden them and undermine our own objectives. And if we genuinely want to change minds, then we will never make progress merely by talking to people who already agree with us. We must be prepared to challenge, and be challenged in return.
But now she appeared to be saying that the mainstream Muslim communities with whom the government was having all this dialogue actually had ‘extremist’ views. So while earlier she had been talking about the importance of engaging with moderates, now she seemed to be talking about the importance of engaging with extremists. And as she said, I do indeed think that such ‘engagement’ is ‘endorsement’; more importantly, truly moderate Muslims think so too and have repeatedly begged the government not to engage with extremists in the community because it emboldens them and undermines true moderates .
Blears went on:
What is needed is a framework for engagement, based on clear principles.
Indeed: and those principles should surely be that it is not just support for violence in Britain that should be beyond the pale but advocacy of a caliphate, a desire to overturn British society and impose sharia law, or support the enemies of this country or terrorism abroad. But no, the minister declared merely that she would not sit down with advocates of terrorism because:
You cannot win political arguments with groups who tell lies as part of their strategy, who change the goal-posts, who spread misinformation and seek to undermine the very process of debate. Agreeing to meet and engage in discussion with such groups would lend a veneer of legitimacy that they have done nothing to warrant.
But it is not just terror groups who fit this description but political Islamists such as the Muslim Brothers. Yet with groups which display
an equivocal attitude on core values such as democracy, freedom of speech or respect towards women,
there would be ‘ limited engagement’. Did that include the Muslim Brothers, or Hizb ut Tahrir, or other groups who want to Islamise Britain? Because ‘engagement’ with such people is the current strategy, and the result is that radicalisation of Britain’s Muslims is going through the roof while the government is seen to cave into the threat of violence and dance to their tune. Witness, for example, the banning of the Dutch anti-Islamist politician Geert Wilders, who threatens no-one, while according to the Centre for Social Cohesion the Hezbollah spokesman Dr Ibrahim el-Moussaoui is to be allowed into the country to teach a course on political Islam at the School of Oriental and African studies – a course apparently aimed at educating Government officials and the police.
So let’s get this straight – ‘engagement’ with extremists means having a spokesman for an Iranian terrorist organisation responsible for numerous attacks upon western interests ‘teach’ British officials and police officers about the inspiration for that terror.
It defies belief. No wonder there's an argument going on in Whitehall.
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Melanie Phillips is a Daily Mail columnist. She also writes for the Jewish Chronicle and is a panellist on BBC Radio Four's Moral Maze. Her most recent book is 'Londonistan', published by Encounter and Gibson Square.
For a complete set of Melanie's articles click here
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Truthtriumphs
February 27th, 2009 1:23amBlears should have disseminated one clear, unequivocal message, that Muslims coming to our country,(and their descendents) to enjoy its many benefits and opportunities, should fit into OUR way of life, not the other way around. If they don't like it, there are 57 Islamic states of varying hues for them to choose from.
All the rest is unneccessary obfuscation.
She should ask herself why it is that amongst many immigrant groups seeking refuge here, it seems to be only the Muslims who seek to change the status quo.
journeyman
February 27th, 2009 3:03amI wonder if Hazel Blears knows what Taqiyya(hypocrasy)is,because if she did,then the
"you cannot win political arguments with groups who tell lies as part of their strategy"
realization would have been arrivable at much sooner.
Why don,t they stop using the (we can,t stop laughing,what idiots--enemy)advisiory panel,
and get you,Robert Spencer,Frank Gaffney and the rest of the Anti-Jihad-Lite experts to break through the "denial syndrome"and culturally suicidal ignorance,
down at the think-tank-room.
It will finally click,but the question is when.
I consider the above remarks by Hazel Blears as a definite indication that the establishment is not perhaps that far off from discovering that as unplesant as it may appear,the only way to prevent our children inheriting a Europe 10 to 20 years down the road,where Muslim enclaves are using Beirut tactics to attain Sharia autonomy,is this..
PUSH BACK;Talk our talk,not theirs.Stop feeding the crocodile in the hope it you are the last one to be eaten,because it just gets bigger.
Islam is a two faced deciever and bully,and like all bullies,at heart a coward.
If we make it abudantly clear that we,see it for that which it is ,an are not the in the slightest bit interested in,accomodating,humouring,appeasing,these trojan horses and their 6th century beduoin desert political juggernaut,after the initial reaction of outrage(angerboy),victimhood and grievance,they will realize that they have been rumbled for the "snake oil salesmen"that it is.
And I can guarantee you that a few years down the road we will all loók back,feeling rather foolish and embarassed that we didn,t think of it sooner.
Actually I think I,ll put my own name forward right now for Hazel Blears new think tank myself.
Penny
February 27th, 2009 3:10amWe could look on the weakly bright side. If the good Dr. is teaching a 'political Islam' course at the SOAS - then surely that's an admission that we are, in fact, looking at Islam as being a political ideology with an unusual form of Hustings and other similar political processes?
In which case, do some of the laws in place to protect it from racial/religious intolerance no longer apply?
Islam must make its mind up in countries where there is a separation of religion and state. It has to be either a spiritual belief or a political ideology. On a weakly funny point, it is setting a worrying precedent.....
Can you imagine if other political ideologies/parties get wind of this? Might the BNP do an L. Ron Hubbard and invent a religion in order to say what they please without fear of the law?
journeyman
February 27th, 2009 4:20amHazel Blears and the rest of the think-tank experts are surely but slowly begining to catch on to the Koranically santioned Islamic doctrine of lies,deception,sedition and hypocrasy,known to thé initiated as TAQIYYA.
Now if the Brits hadn,t booted out Geert Wilders,he could have told them.
Why is it goverment that are always the last ones to find out.
Its getting hard to meet anybody who doesn,t know the intricasies of Taqiyya.
Next thing is to stop feeding the crocodile hoping you will be the last to be eaten,because it just gets bigger.
Stop talking their talk and start talking ours.
There may be a few chidish tantrums thrown by "anger boy"at first,but he will soon settle down when he has been left with absolutley no doubt whatever that the (stupid Kaffir),have finally rumbled his modus operandi,
Islam is a bully and like all bullies, upon being confronted is shown for the coward it really is.
Get the Anti-Jihad-Lite mob down there like youself Melanie,Robert Spencer and Frank Gaffney.
We don,t want to end up with Gaza x 10,enclaves all over Europe 15 years down the road.
Guy Leven-Torres
February 27th, 2009 7:30amOh No Guy You Simply Don’t Understand!
Comment by Guy Leven-Torres
27th February 2009
4,000 British born jihadists in Afghanistan! Wow! A whole Legion in effect or a Brigade trained, ready and war hardened to wage guerrilla war back in Britain. Yet nobody so much as mentions it. The Romans controlled whole provinces bigger than Britain with such numbers- 4,000-5,000 is about the optimum one can control effectively on the battlefield without complex Command and Control. The figure of 4,000 is no arbitrary accident but a figure deliberately recruited and trained for the purposes of waging war in Afghanistan and a potential conflict in Britain when these individuals get back.
They will not be arrested of course and tried for treason and hanged but will simply be ignored by our Multiculturalist fascist elite, who will instead either recruit them to assist the ‘War on Terror’ or give them handouts to spend, not on becoming ex-extremists but to recruit another 4,000 strong Brigade, train and arm them.
I would even suggest that this Moslem ‘Brigade’/ Legion is perhaps a single unit and broken down into Companies, Platoons, and Sections with Commanders, just like the old style IRA. They would be pretty stupid if they did not but I suspect they have. Like I said 4,000 tells me a lot. I was told not to reveal this by the way but we changed our minds, in order to shock the ‘dead from the neck up’ British masses out of their customary myopic apathy and complacency. They of course do worry about Banker’s huge pensions for failure but, well ‘who cares about a few Brigades of murderous Islamist nutcases in our midst? Besides it’s racist and Islamophobist to mention it.
WAKE UP PEOPLE!
Money can be earned and spent- Your lives and that of your children cannot! British Pakistani extremists are killing your sons and daughters in a civil war and have already murdered 52 here in Britain, let alone the thousands of young Britons maimed and killed by Moslem gangs on the streets of Bradford, Leeds, and various towns in the West Midlands. These are never called ‘racist’ by the way, because to the Multiculturalist mindset, kicking white children to death is simply justifiable revenge by former colonials upon their white British oppressors. ‘And besides we don’t want to upset the Moslem Labour vote do we, with which we shall return to power in 2010?’
I am not suggesting we arm ourselves at all. Like I have pointed out many times to you all. I deeply oppose private armies and vigilantes, because I know and understand the damage, death and chaos they can cause. This is why I am so determined that the facts above are not ignored either through cowardice, indifference, stupidity, mistaken appeasement or any other such nonsense. We need to deal with this and now, not tomorrow, not next week, next year or when something happens but now! Today!
Write to your MP! Protest! Withhold your Council tax!
We see hundreds of thousands of Rent-a- Cause Middle England Numpty Britons sporting Hamas scarves on bussed into London demonstrations from Gaza- on- Thames, about so called Israeli Nazi style genocide, but nobody seems to care that, let alone understand that British extremist Moslems, whose ideology is taken in many cases straight out of Mein Kampf and Arabist-Moslem racial-Caste supremacy, are fighting and killing their own countrymen and women.
This is not a new story by the way.
It was reported last year after Nimrod crews and ground troops heard West Midlands accents on intercepted Islamist radio transmissions. John Gaunt even ran a whole day’s programme on Radio Talk Sport to try to alert people to what was happening.
However all he received back was endless comment on football celebrities and transfers. One could hear the exasperation in his voice! I really do wonder at times just how dense and stupid we British have become. We worry about money- oh yes money- always money and other people’s salaries and pensions- but not dangerous murderous thugs trained and ready to kill us all in a potential civil war that will make the Irish troubles look like a picnic. By ignoring it and obsessing about football and celebrity trivia, a Banker’s pension in a replay of the old British Class Envy Syndrome that has been more responsible for destroying this country than any Hitler wannabe.
Well there is one consolation, when you are under islamist rule or dead, there will be too much time, spent either in avoiding offending our new Master Race or ‘On the Other Side’, if there is life after death wondering why we did nothing when we had the chance to and watching as our descendents, live daily in an Islamist hell that we could have prevented had we been not so utterly selfish a generation of thicks and ‘ I Want It nows.’
Another thing which I find worrying; deeply alarming in fact is the shocking enthusiasm and delight that much of Gaza-on-Thames relishes in Jew bashing, while at the same time getting worked up about the Holocaust and Holocaust deniers like David Irving or Roman Catholic Bishops.
I don’t see the difference actually…..They are both violently anti- Semitic, and simply side with the Nazi thugs that carried out the deliberate and systematic extermination of the Jewish People, who as a result share a special place in history. Whether you sport a Hamas scarf in blind ignorance of reality or wear an SS uniform, I don’t see any difference either…..Both are nasty and unpleasantly racist. Or perhaps they want to become Moslems after all?
The mind boggles!
And if this upsets you…Good! My daddy always told me that if people are upset by fact then upset them more! This country is a bloody disgrace at present!
And I can tell you that the decent, very likeable majority of Moslems who want nothing to do with this stuff are also ignored by our weasel Elite. I wonder why?
So many questions to be answered but as usual ignored…..
zoltix
February 27th, 2009 7:52amThe full extract regarding 'twisted reading of Islam' is
"You can’t ignore the facts that this ideology is rooted in a twisted reading of Islam. The academics, scholars and imams I meet to discuss these issues tell me that the message of Islam is one of peace"
This shows that the same old delusion stills remains, as well as being 'advised' by the usual suspects, the imams and the so called scholars.
The barely concealed vicious sideswipe at Geert Wilders inserted into the speech reveals how gutless and unprincipled our politicians have become.
Reiterating Truthtriumphs point above, changing the status quo, islamisation, caliphate yearning are not extreme islamic demands. They are the duty of all devout muslims. Until our slow learning politicians see this, the stealth jihad continues.
Brian of London
February 27th, 2009 8:01amThere's only one sensible view of Islam: there is no moderate Islam.
Carry on chasing the Unicorn UK. But, please, Jew, realise what's happening and leave Europe now before it's too late again.
J. Isaacs
February 27th, 2009 8:48amThe photo of Hazel bears a striking resemblance to Alexander the meercat from Comparethemeercat.com on a current British TV advertisement.
Merlyn
February 27th, 2009 8:53amAs Australia's prime minister, Kevin Rudd has said;
'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. '
'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'
'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'
'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'
'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'
We need a straight talking, no nonsense man like this at the helm of our ship, NOW.
Every person and every nation needs a purpose, let our purpose be personal and our society's respect for ourselves and our own autonomy.
'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'
'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'
Straydingo
February 27th, 2009 8:59amTruthtriumphs,
I agree with your observations - You don't see Indians, Polish, Australian, New Zealand, Chinese, Jamaican, German etc etc etc trying to turn the UK into "mini me's" - its truly mind boggling
GaryO
February 27th, 2009 10:02amFortunately, Hazel Blears and her government will be gone, come the next general election. My worries are regarding the views of those that'll replace this immensely giving-in and dangerously naive government.
If you think that the Tories or LibDems have any better ideas, then please write an article on those. At least it'll give someone like me, who has all but given up on Britain as having a secular and tolerant future, a glimmer of hope and will stop looking at other alternatives.
steve
February 27th, 2009 10:43amGuy Leven-Torres: Could you provide evidence that there are 4,000 British-born jihadists in Afghanistan?
phil
February 27th, 2009 11:33amsteve-one less if you are here :)
Norm
February 27th, 2009 11:56am"you cannot win political arguments with groups who tell lies as part of their strategy"
ZanuLabour won three elections with exactly that stratagy.
steve
February 27th, 2009 12:37pmStraydingo: Actually, I think if you look back there has been suggestions in the past of various groups and not just Muslims for not fitting in. For example, there has been criticism of Sikhs in the past. If you want to go back even further, a hundred years ago Jews were being criticized for being foreign and not fitting in.
Forlornehope
February 27th, 2009 1:27pmWhatever the past history, and it is terrible, for Guy Leven-Torres to smear "Roman Catholic Bishops" in general with the despicable view of one renegade is simply to fall for the KGB smear perpetrated by Rolf Hochuth's angry play, Der Stellvertreter (The Deputy). This was part of a deliberate and successful operation to smear the Catholic church, at that time the only effective intellectual opponents of Communism. This campaign reached its appogee with the attempted assasination of Pope John Paul II. Despite the curtain being drawn back so obviously, the useful idiots are still repeating the KGB line. Well done you should be proud of yourselves!
The idea that religion can be excluded from society flies in the face of the best science (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=is-religion-adaptive). What can be done is to replace "bad" religion that encourages hostility to others with good. Most religions have, at their core, values of respect and support for others. But it is worth remembering that for any religion it still holds that:
"Religion makes good people better and bad people worse." — H. Richard Niebuhr
stanley Jerusalem
February 27th, 2009 1:31pmMichael B - If you want to go back even further, a hundred years ago Jews were being criticized for being foreign and not fitting in. No-one ever criticised Jews for not fitting in. They boasted about it. For their part the Jews went quietly about their business and never tried to blow up a number 30 bus or a Tube train. Even the Sikhs managed to change civilisation by getting the Brits to accept Bus Coductors and cyclists wearing turbans. Hardly earth-shattering. But now, how times change!
Mr R
February 27th, 2009 1:38pmIt's not only about fitting in. That's just one part of it. It's also about not expecting the host country/population to adapt their ways to suit the newcomers. Jews never expected that, Sikhs did not either (for example). Poles don't expect it, neither do Koreans (for example). It seems to be an exclusively Muslim thing and that, probably, because it is what their sacred texts demand.
Terry
February 27th, 2009 1:42pmMs Blears has an absolute cheek when she says we mustn't worry about political correctness, but ensure that we confront such wrong views as (inter alia) "homophobia". the promotion of homosexuality is itself one of the chief features of modern political correctness.
Dixon
February 27th, 2009 1:45pmBlears...how can antyone take seriously a woman who smirks continuously like shes talking to a three year old?
wally
February 27th, 2009 1:47pmArticle in today's Telegraph gives the figure 4000 Afghanistan trained Muslims in the UK, according to security services.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1557505/4,000-in-UK-trained-at-terror-camps.html
Muslims have always let Christians and Jews live by their own laws in states such as the Ottoman empire: concomitant with this was the fact that they were disarmed and had a legally inferior status to Muslims. At least some Muslims seem to feel that this is how things should be in Europe (without the second class citizenship and general sense of insecurity, of course).
There is a passage in the Koran telling believers not to take unbelievers as friends and the highly influential (among the Pakistani community) Deobandi brand of Islam teaches the avoidance, as much as possible, of association with infidels.
All this is of a different order to problems of Sikhs or Jews fitting in - and their religion didn't mandate the use of the threat of force to convert or gain the submission of unbelievers either. Read your Koran if you want evidence for that.
Linda Smith
February 27th, 2009 1:50pmIsrael and Jews are not alone. See Indian website: "Islamic Terrorism in India" for eye-opening articles such as
"Islam's Other Victims: India" giving historic context of India's centuries long and ongoing fight against militant Islam,
Read current debate on anti-Hindu film Slumdog Millionaire which Hindus say is an inversion of the truth.
htp://islamicterrorism.wordpress.com/2009/02/23/anti-hindu-film-slumdog-millionaire-wins-8-oscar/
For example, on the Topic Anti Hindu film Slumdog Millionaire wins 8 Oscar jagoindia posted on 23 Feb 09:
"When will Danny Boyle make a movie on Hindus suffering at the hands of the Islamofascists? Will he? Why will he not? He will definitely not. Because if he shows the Muslims as aggressors there is evey chance he may have to confront violent Muslim mobs baying for his blood. It is far easier to target the gentle Hindu as the evil one. ...."
and another post:
"..The book by Vikas Swarup has the main protagonist named as Ram Mohammad Thomas who was conveniently transformed into a Muslim boy, Jamal Malik who lost his mother to a Hindu mob to make it sound in the author's own confession more 'politically correct'...."
and another:
"...More disturbingly, you have the depiction of the blue bodied Rama whom Hindus consider as Maryada Puroshottam (the best among men) threatening to terminate the existence of the innocent Muslim children...."
Jews might find comfort (or alarm) to find they are not alone. Check out the website.
Carl
February 27th, 2009 1:56pmMerlyn, Kevin Rudd said no such thing. That was an amalgam of anti Muslim rhetoric, the type that the BNP and its supporters in this country send around by email to foster a climate of hate
Keith
February 27th, 2009 2:54pmUK Islam is a tiny part of Global Islam. Global Islam has many inviolable tenets of doctrine which are against UK law, yet the Govt. has given massive funding to the ethos. Why??
Original Tony
February 27th, 2009 3:25pmWell said Mr. Leven-torres.
I personally can't stand appeasement towards radicals of any kind; a radical is normally entrenched in his/her opinion and if their actions are breaking the law they must be dealt with harshly.
pip
February 27th, 2009 4:50pmsteve-one less if you are here :)
LOL
Lizzy
February 27th, 2009 6:45pmMerlyn, where did Kevin Rudd say that please?
I would really like to know because his bureaucrats still toe the "multi-culti differences" line.
Monty
February 27th, 2009 6:50pm"But now she appeared to be saying that the mainstream Muslim communities with whom the government was having all this dialogue actually had ‘extremist’ views. "
She probably didn't mean to let that particular cat out of the bag, mainly because it happens to be the truth.
Michael B
February 27th, 2009 7:23pmstanley Jerusalem, I have not commented in this thread.
Steve
February 27th, 2009 10:19pmHazel Blears makes Sarah Palin look like Gail Trimble.
Neil Saunders
February 28th, 2009 10:45amThere is an important speech given recently by Geert Wilders, "We Will Never Apologize For Being Free Men", which appeared originally on the JihadWatch web site, and is reproduced on the American Renaissance web site.
Shezza from Oz
February 28th, 2009 11:23amMerlyn
February 27th, 2009 8:53am
Unfortunately it was not Kevin Rudd the current Prime Minister's point of view you were reiterating. It was the prevouis Prime Minister John Howard who would have said somthing along those lines. He and the previous foreighn minister were quite vocal on the issuse and were not very PC in their attitude towards immigrants who wanted to change the Australian status quo. I have yet to see similar resolve from the current Prime Minister. Though he not take kindly to a Mufti from Melbourne who extolled the virtue of "wife discipline". The Mufti in question then stated that he was just a boy whose intentions were good but he was misunderstood.
Sweetie
February 28th, 2009 11:56amSteve, your comment about Jews not fitting in in Britain is complete tosh. Jews are very well assimilated and dont push their religion on anyone. In fact they are very very fussy about who can become a Jew. How many Jews have conspired to blow innocent Britains up and how much has Islam contributed to life in Britain?
phil
February 28th, 2009 3:07pmsteve it looks like sweetie has you by the gonads -if you write tosh you will feel the righteous indignation of those you offend ,and I have heard sweetie has a tight grip .
Pip
February 28th, 2009 4:04pmWe, people of the UK should be asking our Government what the heck is going on here.
I have just read that Choudary and his nasty bedfellows are on a demo mission today.
Pandering to this man and his fanaticals is just outrageous. Is this what Blears wants?
Is it no wonder people are feeling the way they are!
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/71154/Hate-preacher-gets-OK-to-run-Sharia-law-demo/
28th February 2009 By Tom Savage and Ross KaniukYour Shout ( 0 )
HATE preacher Anjem Choudary will march in London today calling for Britain to adopt Islamic Sharia law.
The startling move comes just days after processions celebrating St George were banned for being racist.
Choudary was given the green light yesterday despite a previous demonstration in which some of his supporters chanted: “Bomb the UK”.
Publicity for the march, in the East End, carries 41-year-old Choudary’s personal mobile number and says the aim of the campaign is to “emulate the Prophet and his companions, by calling for Islam and speaking out against the oppression of man-made law”.
It says that Britain is full of “disbelievers” who are involved in prostitution, gambling, alcoholism and worshipping other gods.
The publicity says women are welcome to join the march but they must walk at the back of the procession as “strict segregation will be enforced”.
The demo comes 18 months after three of Choudary’s supporters were jailed for soliciting murder in a London protest against cartoons of the prophet Mohammed published in Denmark.
That was when some demonstrators chanted “Bomb the UK” and “Europe, you will pay with your blood”. Organiser Choudary was fined.
Today’s march won permission after a council withdrew funding for a St George’s Day parade in the Midlands – on the grounds that it was “racist”.
Parade founder Mark Cowles, 40, of West Bromwich, said yesterday: “I can’t believe Choudary’s event can go ahead.
“The British establishment is trying to take away the British voice but other cultures choose to force their way of life on us.”
David B
February 28th, 2009 4:08pmThis just seems like a Fisking, littered with "contrarian jibes" (as one commenter was dismissed on another thread).
I would much rather read Melanie's analysis and proposals for what should be done.
stanley Jerusalem
February 28th, 2009 4:18pmMichael B - Quite right. I meant Steve.
janet
February 28th, 2009 8:05pmSeems to me that there is always some kind of demonstration going on in England, however why isn't anyone demonstrating against the rockets that are still being fired from gaza into Israel even after the ceasefire a month ago..total number of
rockets around 90...where is the media now, as usual they are turning a blind eye..jews of the world start demonstrating and supporting Israel you might not realise it now but it may be your new home one day...
Shy Guy
March 1st, 2009 7:20am"Philistines upon you, Britain!"
Rodders
March 1st, 2009 12:29pmGood Grief! Only in the moral and rational vacuum of the Left could this be such a difficult issue to decide on.
Margaret Muller-Johansson
March 1st, 2009 1:23pmsteve, in the past or even now you never see Jewish or Sikhs going to the underground and blowing up themselves and others do you? what are you talking about? actually many people know that Jewish integrate any country in the world they go or live, there maybe few Jewish or Sikhs who are very traditional and keep their culture to themselves, they are such a peaceful people who don't bother anyone, they don't bring their believes to the others either, contrary the muslims who think the western culture is horrible specially the massive immigrants who been coming to Britain and Europe for the last 20 years have a different story
steve
March 1st, 2009 11:28pmI didn't say that Jews and Sikhs have committed acts of terrorism in the UK. My point was about the wider issue of assimilation in response to another post. Jews and Sikhs have been criticized in the past for not fitting in and certainly for not being British.
Merlyn
March 2nd, 2009 7:36am8 more rockets fell on Southern Israel this weekend, one on a school. Its just a matter of time before renewed hostilities. Israel has to stand firm on zero tolerance of rocket fore.
phil
March 2nd, 2009 11:05amsteve is there a purpose to your post ? You could just as easily have said "sometimes the post is late"-it is just as relevant
stanley Jerusalem
March 2nd, 2009 11:10amSteve- Jews and Sikhs have been criticised in the past for not fitting in. Their complainers were those of limited intellect and understanding of what constitutes fitting-in. The vast majority existed with the philosophy of not troubling trouble till trouble troubles you and they were to be proved correct. No Jew or Sikh has sought to undermine the British way of life and their contribution to society has been positive and useful. What the complainers considered to be British is anyone's guess.Going to the pub and getting legless perhaps.
As a group, Jews may be considered to have contributed disproportionately [ if it is permissible to use such an emotive expression] to British culture and society during the 300 years during which we have been more or less tolerated here.The children and grandchildren of the Ugandan Asians who arrived here in the 60's and 70's on the other hand have marginalised themselves instead of accepting the culture their parents found, and convinced themselves that they live in alien environment, albeit of their own making.We laughed in the 90's when we heard reports from Yemen of Brits from Leicester being caught in violent armed agression against their state. Little did we know that this was the tip of an iceberg which threatens to sink UK plc as surely as the one which sank the Titanic, another British unsinkable giant.
steve
March 2nd, 2009 6:03pmSorry, phil. I was trying to engage in an actual discussion instead of simply spouting rhetoric and engaging in name calling. You clearly are an expert on the history of race relations in the UK so I'll defer to you and keep quiet.
Hanan Dayouni
March 2nd, 2009 7:19pmIn this picture Hazel Blear looks like stress free woman who is just having some kind of fun, she doesn't look like a responsible leader or a politician, I wonder why this country is going the wrong way, when people like me go out in the community we see the things the government people don't want to see it is just too much for us to deal with, most of the politicians or the rich middle class are ignoring what is happening around the British streets because it doesn't affect them, they go to work, they go their second homes in the countryside for the weekends, holidays, private clubs to exercise, they send their children in a private schools, they don't know what is going on in this country, Islamic extremism is rising and they don't want to do anything with that, poverty is rising in Britain, their is a big gap between the rich and poor and their are people who live like Dickens time here, crime and drugs are high, their are many things need to be watch, we need our voices to be heard with out being accuse of racism and political incorrectness, the labour government has to involve and listen now not later....
phil
March 3rd, 2009 11:09amsteve ,I have searched but cannot find any intellectual debate from you -maybe you can point it out .Nevertheless I am obliged by your offer ,although it is not necessary as this is a wonderful opportunity for all of us to write our thoughts ,especially those that have them .