Just whose side is he on?

Neil Turner

The USA is at the top of a very slippery slope.

Rather like 1997 in the UK - Blair comes in, smiling, promising change, rapturous applause...

The reality was a mass destruction of British values, bankrupting the State, and subverting the civil service, police, and Parlimentary democracy. Most right-thinking patriots find themselves marginialised as being "racist" or "extreme right-wing"

America - I fear for you. But remember you voted for change, and this is exactly what you will get

Michael B

Power Line has a set of three commentaries, all probative, on Chas Freeman:
The Saudi-Manchurian Candidate
It's Official
Freeman: Beyond the Pale

Herbert Thornton

Melanie - You write - "But now, Britain and the other nations of the west must really start asking themselves whether America is still on their side."

I think that a more cogent question is whether Britain and the other nations of the west are still on America's side. What I observe in Britain is a strong tide that evinces both anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism - a tide that includes both the country's Muslims and the left in general. (At the same time, I can't help suggesting, in passing, that it also seems to me that the one party most deeply opposed to both those groups is the BNP, is it not?)

As for Chas W Freeman, you leave me wondering - where do you think he stands in the matter of the reported keen interest that the CIA are said to have in penetrating Britain's Muslim communities in order to identify terrorists? Will he be content to see Britain developing into a sort of Pakistan - in some respects appearing to cooperate with the U.S., but under suspicion of the cooperation being a good deal less than fully sincere?

Worried

As a businessman who learns how to judge a person within the first few seconds, without even reading this posting (or the prior one about this gentleman), I would not trust him as far as I could throw him. And trust is what this is all about.

Vision Aforethought

@Herbert Thornton: You are so spot on, it is frightening. Britain being stuck right in the centre between the two great philosophies seems to have it's loyalties in a twist.

DJM

This is absolutely shocking Melanie. Pray the confirmation hearings (if there are any for this role) bring these facts out. If this appointment gets through, the next 4 years will undermine US credibility and ability to project its power. Maybe that's why they did it.

William Lambton

A generous interpretation would be that the 'new' US
has a policy of 'drawing the sting' from potential
adversaries (eg Iran) by appointing soft-looking
'sponges' to the front line of her diplomatic troops.
Are you suggesting Freeman is a nascent traitor?

Your views, incidentally, on the real reason Israel pulled
back from Lebanon several years' ago would be of
great interest.

hadrian

The BNP, for anyone who cares to recall in these fraught times, espouses Nazi national socialism. That it hates Islam hardly guarantees it now loves Jewish people. Feed it at your peril! One fantaicism is as mad, bad and dangerous to know as any other. We don't need thugs, we need wise men.

An American

Herbert Thornton,

Thank you for your insightful comments.

America's left hates what American stand for also.

I'm not sure we can save ourselves.

Rob

"The truly unforgivable mistake of the Chinese authorities was the failure to intervene on a timely basis to nip the demonstrations in the bud... I do not believe it is acceptable for any country to allow the heart of its national capital to be occupied by dissidents intent on disrupting the normal functions of government, however appealing to foreigners their propaganda may be."

Dear God, what a tremendous arse of a man he is.

gary ashton

america is only a few years behind europe sweeping change in ideology and allegiance with islam. obama will court the islamic world, the pawns are being moved in that direction now, it's only a matter of time before israel is in check.
surrounded by arab nations who want it eradicated and europe's left and islamic population who are blinded by their hate for jews to the point they can rationalize it, asia's muslim interests and now americas political defeat, the game moves into very dangerous territory for those who support israel.
history is cyclic and repeats its self in various guises, different background, different faces but the conflict is always the same, israel/jews and the symbolism they represent are the prize.
the jewish people need to move to israel where they at least gan be defended.

Frank Pulley

St. Mark of Steyn adds his twopenn'orth to the CV of The One's latest horrifying pick:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YzI2ZjFlMTY3YzhlOGM0MjhhNTk1MDYxODY0MzBkNTk=

As ever Mark's whimsy evokes a powerful medley of emotions: maniacal mirth; fury and fear for the future - in equal measures. The current Vicoian chaos that is engulfing the West seems to indicate that we are truly at that tipping point and that a cycle of destruction is imminent. Get some rations in. We may have to take to the mattresses quite soon.

Herbert Thornton

Hadrian - of course we need wise men. But wise men do not substitute abuse for reasoned debate, and your attempt to smear the BNP by repeating the false and tired old allegations that it espouses Naziism and consists of thugs is not reasoned debate.

Kim

I concur w/ all but your final question, Melanie. "But now, Britain and the other nations of the west must really start asking themselves whether America is still on their side." And what side would that be? Based on your recent pieces on Britain's and other Euro countries' stance on freedom (Geert Wilder), Israel, Islamism...How far from Europe's "side" does this choice for NIC chief put our country, anyway? Different but the same, is how it appears to me. Sadly for us all.

DH

Since when is China America's enemy?

allan kessing

Oh the iniquity of the behorned devil, "interviewed (someone)about Hamas","talks to others (China/Iran)",and of course the clincher , "a vicious enemy of Israel".
When the Picts re-invade Scotland will the author assert they are returning home?
As the accusation "Nazi" automatically taints the accusor, surely "God gave the land to us" is even more self defeating.

Derek BLADES

Ms Phillips describes Freeman as "a supporter of the Walt/Mearsheimer anti-Jew canard that ‘the Jewish lobby’ manipulates American foreign policy in the interests of Israel."
A correction. Their well researched and carefully argued book is called "The Israeli Lobby and US Foreign Policy". They do not refer to a “Jewish” Lobby because they are not anti-Semitic. But they do believe - as do I and countless other educated observers - that the Israeli Lobby in the United States has proved a disaster for both Israel and the United States. Their book should be compulsory reading for those wishing to post comments on Ms Phillips' site.

Micahel F. Scheuer, Falls Church, VA

Isn't it fair that the two foreign lobbies that are, with the help of the U.S. governing elite, destroying America -- the Saudi lobby and the Israel-firsters -- have their respective agents high inside the U.S. government -- IDF vet Rahm Emanuel as Obama's chief of staff and Freeman as a senior intel adviser. It seems a bit churlish of for the Israel-firsters to complain about an American enemy beside themselves having access to sensitive U.S. data. And, after all, which is more important to America. Israel is a barren sandpit, while Saudi Arabi is the swing oil producer and owns much of the U.S. debt. Washington licks the boots of both under the rule of both parties, but because we have given the Saudis the upper hand, we must lick their sandals more earnestly.

Respectfully,

M>FR> Scheuer
Falls Church, VA

Nannette

Chas Freeman wrote: "The truly unforgivable mistake of the Chinese authorities was the failure to intervene on a timely basis to nip the demonstrations in the bud... I do not believe it is acceptable for any country to allow the heart of its national capital to be occupied by dissidents intent on disrupting the normal functions of government, however appealing to foreigners their propaganda may be."

That statement alone proves that this man is anti-American and anti-democracy.

He should be removed from office ASAP...

Or is he representative of a future anti-democratic America, run by thugs and dictators?

Shezza from Oz

DH
February 28th, 2009 2:25am
I can't say that I am well versed in this area so I do suggest that you google it. America's relationship with China is quite interesting. I do know that China is unhappy that the US recognises Taiwan as a county independant of China. There have been all sorts of senate issues regarding trade with China and If I remember correctly Israel was not allowed to sell technology to China because the US wold not allow it. Enemies in the cold war sense they are not but it has only been in the past few years that the relationship has thawed a bit

fulcanelli

The political leanings of Obama, and members of his campaign team as well, regarding Israel and the middle east became apparent to anyone who would listen during the campaign. The problem was that most people would not listen, they still won't.

This will not end well for the US. The parallels with 1997 are quite striking, and yet most political commentators continue to act like young girls before a rock star when they mention Obama, gushing praise without looking beyond the performance. Give it a couple of years and they will realise that their 'messiah' is nothing more than a phoney. He, and his left wing cronies Pelosi et al, will lead the US to ruin. After electing these people they deserve everything they get. I really do fear for the conservatives in the US at the moment. Best of luck sorting out the mess!

GutClean

Hi everyone and trust you shan't mimd an off-topic contribution this blog but some weeks ago I corrected Mel's correct but not colloquial Dutch translation of 'never again' (it should really be 'nooit weer') and I said I was having difficulty locating an internet source for the 'Auschwitz memorial' where these words are transcribed in several languages.
I've now discovered that it's at Treblinka and Dutch is not one of the languages. Apologies.
Not really worth posting but my source is a current piece by Simon Scott Plummer for Standpoint magazine 'From Treblinka to Tannenberg' in which he travels through the wreckage of German military might and I thought readers who haven't yet noticed it might appreciate the link @ http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/940/full .

Omar

This fella doesn't seem to have much regard for the values and traditions of the country he's supposed to represent. There's no greater or more dangerous flaw than that.

Bill M

DH,

Since Mao took over.

Linda Smith

Some words of comfort for Jews and supporters of Israel who may be feeling beleaguered:

Haaretz, Israeli Newspaper, reports today that the US is to boycott Durban conference on rascism.

Also:

"A British official says a UK diplomat has been suspended following his arrest for an alleged anti-Semitic rant in a London gymn.

Foreign Office Minister Gillian Merron told members of Parliament on Friday that Rowan Laxton, 47, had been suspended from his job at the Foreign Office and will face disciplinary proceedings."

Dixon

One thing bothers me. In view of Mels alarm about the putative involvement of the US in Durban 2 a week ago, does not the fact, declared half a week ago, that the US has declared it will now SHUN Durban 2 deserve a mention?

Whilst I am with Mel on her core issues ( the Big Struggle ) I do find her rhetorical style...selectivity and exaggeration...to be getting a bit alienating. The views she puts usually can stand up without either of these stylistic aspects. Adding them on...as the saying goes..."gilding the lilly" actually undermines her case.

In fact, a case also could be made for Obama not actually representing such a big change after all. He is continuing to authorise weekly missile strikes from UAVs in Pakistan. He has said nothing about the revelation that these UAVs are actually BASED in Pakistan...presumably with armed American personnel to protect them. He has appointed as CIA chief a man who has openly declared that he would endorse torture when other methods of interrogation have failed, he has refused to countenace the arraignment of Bush administration personnel on "abuses" that his supporters had demanded and ( it seemed ) expected.

Gitmo is not closed and when it does Obamas people anticipate the continuation of the detention of enemy combatants, but at other places ( inside the US ).

On top of all this, it now seems the Iraq "withdrawal" will not be a withdrawal, so much as a scaling down by half, to a vestigial...( ho ho ) FIFTY THOUSAND "advisors". No less an Obama supporter than Nancy Pelosi was hopping mad on TV the other night night.

Then we have that little fact, unmentioned here, that the US has now expressed dissaproval of Durban 2 and will not be taking part.

None of which gets a mention by Melanie.

It seems to me that if Obamma turns out to be the American Blair after all, time will tell. Noone can change it one way or the other. So what is the reason to bang on about it?

Dave M

"The BNP, for anyone who cares to recall in these fraught times, espouses Nazi national socialism. That it hates Islam hardly guarantees it now loves Jewish people. Feed it at your peril!"

I thought all that over for quite some time and read with interest Melanie's article on the BNP in this weeks Mail. My take on the BNP is this: For a start, they're never actually going to get into Government power by any stretch of the imagination. Lewt's forget that idea outright. The U.K. population is made up of more pro BBC, wishy washy Guardianistas than "populist nationalists" i.e. those who don't want to live in a multicultural society or see Western values go down the drain. Not all of these latter are what you would call B.N.P. voters but, as Melanie has stressed, have nowhere to turn, apart from maybe UKIP. Thus, those of us who are pro Melanie or even pro Richard Littlejohn (both detest the B.N.P.) form a real minority. The majority of the country wants to see mass immigration which is why the Labour Party and Beeb have had a free hand. If Brown were in Italy or Germany he'd have been voted out years ago over immigration issues. Moreover, just watch BBC Question Time and you will see. Melanie has stood out on that show like a sore thumb and people just going ahead with the same old defence of radical Islam or the Palestinians and so on. I think for many people who are now at their wits end, the BNP is really a stick to frighten the main parties. If the main parties were willing to debate the whole multicultural ideology, as William Hague was willing to do, the B.N.P. would be superfluous. In fact, even Hague used the B.N.P. in his campaign to frighten people into a more realistic discussion of mass immigration (so the B.N.P. wouldn't gain strength). Many peope use the B.N.P. to tactically frighten politicians into doing something.

Dixon

Incidentally, regulars here will know that I express very hardline views in support of "The West". But at the time of Tiannamen, I also expressed views ( not on the nascent internet of course ) in support of the Chinese government. Indeed, as its now a topic airing, I would say many in the West need to wake up to the likelihood that "repressive", easily criticised China is as much a frontline battleground in the war for survival of modernity agains reaction as is Israel. China has its own indiginous Muslim population which is already waging a little reported domestic war. But more significantly, it is the very bull-headedness and self-interest of China that is important. These are qualities which the west had surgically excised from within by its left leaning intelligentsia, decades ago. It is why we are ...yes we are...going to lose to Islamisation long before the end of this century ( unless something changes very radically ). The only hope for the survival of a "modern" Western-derived outlook in the world is in the bull-headed, old-time self interested form of a continually modernising China. Frankly, the less "freedom" they allow to their own left leaning intelligentsia to pervert the course of industrialisation and development the better. One of the few encouraging things in this world is that regarding such matters as "human rights" and "environmentalism" the Chinese government reflects my own personal outlook...they just dont give a damn.

aliceinarcata

The majority of American jews voted for Obama. Are they on America's side?

George Laird

Dear Melanie

Why don't you write a piece on how the free world should give Israel a veto on any national appointments by western leaders?

That way you can make the case for a big brother super state were thought and ideas can be carefully vetted before someone is deemed worthy to serve Israel first, there country second.

I notice for a while that you imply that Israel is in effect an ally of the west.

I don't subscribe to that notion and I wonder why you keep trotting it out.

Finally, do you have any information what Israeli units are serving in Iraq and Afghanistan?

I would like to know what our Israeli "allies" are doing.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Frank P

DH

"Since when is China America's enemy?"

If you are implying that because Marxist inspired regimes now exist in both America and China (not to mention the UK) they are now collaborators rather than ideological enemies, you have a point. However, the multi-ideological stripes that have now blended into each other around the globe have turned geopolitics into a miasmic melange. As the earth spins and warms or cools (choose whichever lies about ‘climate change’ suit you own prognostications) the politico-religious tectonic plates will assume two shades: the dark brown of Islamism and the yellow streak of Dhimmitude. The possibility of multi-faceted nuclear war will, if it occurs, only serve to accelerate that outcome. Time is short and options are limited. Mohammed is indeed coming to the mountain. There is only one country willing to ambush him and the fifth columns that proliferate within its own populace and those of its so-called allies are vilifying that country. Wise-up, O western weaklings! The day of Dhimmitude is dawning.

phil

George Laird you need to answer questions before you have the impudence to ask anyone else -mine for instance
btw your quote "I don't subscribe to that notion and I wonder why you keep trotting it out." --who do you think cares a damn what you think apart from you --yours sincerely-phil- the campaign for our human rights not to read so much garbage from you ,backed up by all the other twits who object to being bracketed with you !

beloved

An American
February 27th, 2009 11:18pm
Herbert Thornton,
Thank you for your insightful comments.
America's left hates what American stand for also.
I'm not sure we can save ourselves.

Dearest An American-oskyvich,

Not even at the ballot box? I agree that storming congress with assault weapons might incure a slight set-back for the conservative agenda. But, don't you think we have a small window of opportunity at the next few elections?

It's all over the innernet. O'voters are having severe buyer's remorse because of such things as, taking away "loopholes of the rich" that will effect everybody. O hits everybody's wallet very hard, including liberal non-profits who won't be able to depend on those evil and selfish middle class capitalists for huge donations that pay those liberal salaries. I mean, it seems like Obama really expects the Liberals to earn their own living! hahahahhaa! What planet is he from?

The progressive socialists are figuring out (again) that their very identity as non-working consumers and recovering pot-heads in the economy is in jeopardy. They depend on us redneck anti-socialists who unfairly work hard and insanely contribute to charities, without any government supervision, mandates, or training. They want us to keep producing the bread that dead-beat socialists feed upon.

The clock is ticking on the O'revolution. The backlash could be far more conservative than Ronald Reagan and Anti-Americans around the globe ever dreamed. It might even be LIBERTARIAN with a Bob Barr as President, Alan Keyes as Majority Senate Leader, Ron Paul as VP, and Ann Coulter as Sec of State! Well, that may not happen until Jesus returns and sets up his kingdom on earth. But, we could at least join the counter-revolution until then.

We should try to restore the Constitution as the law of the land !!! Our nation is worth the effort. Step one is lifting our own spirit so we can lift other people around us.

Yours truly,

Beloved-novich
Unrepentant Bitter Clinger from the USSA

Linda Smith

George Laird posted 'I would like to know what our Israeli "allies" are doing.'

Israel, our ally, is fighting Hamas and Hezbollah, Islamic fundamentalist Iran's proxies. All part of the same global war against Islamic fundamentalism.

HarleyDavidson

It is not so much whose side is Freeman on we know where Freeman stands. The question is whose side is Obama on? Powers, Rice, Jones, and Freeman are all Obama appointments.

For those of you on this site using Saudi or even Arab oil why America is currently involved in the middle east perhaps its time you all understood the actual facts.

Canada is far and away America's number one oil and gas producer. Followed by Mexico and Venezuela and then Nigeria. America ONLY gets 2% of its oil from Arab sources which Canada and Alaska can fill with the completion of the new pipelines currently being built.

The Arabs are far and away the EU and Japan main source of oil. NOT America.

OK, here's the way I see it from across the pond why America pulled out of Durban 2. America elected an idiot who pick a team of idiots . . . who developed a idiotic policy to deal with even more idiots only to prove our idiots are not idiotic enough to deal with professional idiots. Yep, that covers it all.

David

Prehaps Mel will apologise for previous comments that the US won't be boycotting Durban II?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067506.html

The United States will not attend a United Nations conference on racism that critics say will be a forum to criticize Israel, and will no longer participate in planning sessions for it, the State Department announced on Friday.

So, whose side is he on? Ours, it seems.

epaminondas

Mr Scheurer, while I respect your indefatigable work on my behalf, you are blowing it on this call. Mr. Freeman is not a George Marshall who thinks our interest lies on the other side. By not only espousing but also propelling the ideas of Walt and Mearsheimer, he is not much different from some 1964 country club cracker slyly making lite of those outside agitators and their efforts to destroy their efforts.

Make no mistake...Walt and Mearheimer's complaint is about Americans who happen to be jewish and their 'inchoate non conspiracy conspiracy' for the benefit of Israel and the to the detriment of the USA. Their claim is literally word for word that jews have a stranglehold on congress, time donations to CHOOSE outright the prez, and they spend an entire chapter on how jews control the american media.

That's bigotry and that's why Freeman is unacceptable.

He accepts and embellishes BIGOTRY and is the National Intelligence Council Committee Chair, and will write Obama's daily briefs.

Like having Jim Crow writing civil rights briefs for Ike.

David

"Since Mao took over."

The American's helped Mao take over as they thought he would be better than the Nationalists. Good call, really......

Herbert Thornton

Dave M - your posting (February 28th, 2009 2:54pm) - rang a bell about my father. He returned from the World War 1 trenches as a firm - even extreme - Socialist (which shocked my firmly Tory grandfather). I once asked him what he thought of the situation in Britain in the 1930s.

My father said that Britain in the 1930s was sufficiently confused that any party that had new ideas, and that could to get only a small foothold in Parliament, was likely to act as a catalyst for great change. Consequently, he said, it had needed only a handful of new members from a completely new party - e.g. a handful of Communists or of Sir Oswald Mosley's party - in Parliament to bring massive voting shifts in subsequent elections - even to a situation like that of Spain that led to the Spanish civil war. As it happened, the Parliamentary catalyst did not appear, but he thought it had been touch and go.

You do not see any future for the BNP, but I wonder whether the basis for that belief is founded largely in your sentence - "The majority of the country wants to see mass immigration..." Can that really be true? I find it very hard to believe. You refer to many people being at their wits' end. I should have thought that those who are at their wits' end considerably outnumber those who want to see mass immigration. Moreover, as the economic downturn gets worse, people who are at their wits' end for other reasons will be looking for new ideas.

This all makes me think that the BNP really are more than a mere stick to beat reluctant and blinkered politicians.

Dixon - Your posting (February 28th, 2009 3:01pm) also rings a bell. I was living and working in Hong Kong at the time of the Tien an Min Square confrontation, and remember the huge, silent, peaceful demonstrations against Deng Xiao Ping's government. At the time, I was horrified and felt the same as the demonstrators. I have since changed my mind. I now entirely and heartily agree with everything in you posting. China is firmly on the side of civilisation and may yet save the whole world from barbarism.

Penny

Dear George,

Why do you specify Iraq or Afghanistan in your question about 'allies'?

Do you consider wars are only those in which the military fight on sea, land and in the air - and always, always wearing a uniform?

Might I respectfully suggest that you take a wider look around you at the world today? Look at the number of countries that are fighting 'wars' that may not always fit into the category you describe. Think of the USA, UK, Australia, India. Or even tiny, beautiful Bali.

I have addressed a few posts to you over the past week in which I mention - amongst other things - the doomed propensity of the intelligentsia to extrapolate their Western logic into Middle Eastern affairs; the military and psychological strategies employed by Hamas; quotes from a Palestinian journalist in respect of strategy and corruption within the Palestinian leadership, and the Military Head of the PLO who quite clearly stated that the Palestinian people are just a weapon in the fight against Israel. You didn't appear to pick up on any of these points.

You ask where Israel fits in? Well, the difficulty you will have is in abandoning your own Western mindset which has its own logic and its own set view about what constitutes 'war' and 'peace', and 'victory' - to name but a few. The Middle Eastern mindset has an entirely different notion of these which most Westerners really don't understand - but Israel does.

Listen to an Islamic, extremist - or a pro-Ummah/Caliphate Muslim - for some insight into this. Better still, if it is at all possible, seek out discussions between the Islamic extremist and members of the Western Intelligentisa to see how frustrated and angry both become due to the non-meeting of mindsets. It may be possible to see the Newsnight discussion somewhere on the internet, where such a clash of cultures, mindsets and 'logic' supports all that I'm saying here.

Believe me, Israel IS a frontline for the West and they are our allies in an on-going, gradual, subtle - almost insidious (but getting less so with each passing year) - form of warfare. If Israel falls, the entire Western world will be affected.

I don't expect you to agree with me because you won't understand it. It is clear from your posts that you see only one, very small, aspect of the Israel/Palestine situation. You are seeing it through a Western heart and eyes whilst applying Western logic.

I have lived in the ME; I married into a ME family and I can assure you that when I speak of the folly of extrapolating a Western mindset / logic into ME affairs, I speak from a reasonably sound position.

The battle isn't all about guns, bombs and infrastructure. There is so much more to it than that. To focus on the visible, external aspects is like being at the helm of the Titanic, unable to see what lies beneath the tip of the iceberg.

Penny

George,

I would just like to add a small point to my earlier post in which I mention 'mindsets'.

There are many around the world which differ from ours. If the Middle Eastern mindset is not familiar to you, I'm sure you will have some knowledge of the Japanese views of 'honour', and of say, seppuku (e.g.hara kiri)and kamikaze pilots. The Japanese 'Suicide Culture' is well-known and is written about by Kayoko Ueno - amongst others.

You might consider India and the outlawed 'suttee', where a widow would climb on the funeral pyre of her dead husband.

You might consider female circumcision and the underlying mindset of those countries that support it.

The above are just a drop in the ocean of worldviews that don't fit into our Western logic or understanding. There are many, many more.

Ann

I see that the usual suspects are claiming that W & M's unhinged piece of Jew-hatred is "Their well researched and carefully argued book". You couldn't make it up.

Ann

David, they shilly-shallied and flirted with this Nuremberg II hate-fest. FINALLY they decided to skip it, but only after quite a while. Even sitting down to consider this antisemitic sewer was too much.

Michael B

Re, the "realism" and realpolitik approach to the present Chinese regime, I particularly enjoyed the recent Chinese olympic ceremonies, an extraordinarily entertaining panoply. I.e. magnificent as entertainment - but also distracting from "other" issues that govt deems necessary to "deal with." The thugs they used, while the olympic torch was passed at certain points around the globe, was but one tell-tale indicator in that vein.

The Chinese govt and the extraordinarily expansive PR that serves as panoply for its systemic and highly coercive internal campaigns can by no means be compared to a 1930's Soviet Union's sundry socialist apologists aka "useful fools" - from George Bernard Shaw to Walter Duranty to Sidney and Beatrice Webb to U.S. Ambassador Joseph Davies (recall Chas Freeman, presently) and many, many others. So some perspective is needed.

Otoh, a comparison with, e.g., economist Paul Samuelson's "useful fool" apologetic, in the wake of East Germany's uprising and protest, in the wake of the Humgarian uprising, in the wake of the Poznan (Poland) uprising and protest, in the wake of the Czechoslovakian revolution, among other factors of note - that begins to be a bit more representative, that begins to reflect a better, a more commensurate analogy.

Realpolitik and more genuine realist considerations, important as they are, need not and more positively should not blind us from the very real, systemic oppressions that are occuring in China today. Entertainment and exercises in deluded chin-pulling need not and should not extract such an extraordinarily high price.

Jenny

No, David, February 28th, 2009 6:05pm, Melanie Phillips will not apologise for her earlier writing on Durban II because, as Rick Moran over on American Thinker notes, "The UN Conference on racism is a thinly disguised conclave that will bash Israel and the US. That the Obama administration insisted on taking a part in planning this insult to both countries revealed either a naivete breathtaking in its scope or just plain idiocy."

Why should Melanie Phillips apologise for being proven right (again)?

She was perfectly right in her objections to this disgraceful venture. Having been so disgusted at the first hate-fest, why did the US assist in the pre-planning of the second?

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/02/obama_throws_durban_ii_under_t.html

The AT also notes the Freeman appointment really is causing waves across the Atlantic. Mind you, if you have a racist mentor for 20 years as a mentor, what sort of judge of character are you?

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/02/more_second_thoughts_by_proisr.html

Robert

Penny, if Israel are our allies, should they not a mindset similar to our own? While the evidence is that the UK and US governments couldn't care less about human rights if the public let them get away with it- a la Diego Garcia- the fact is that a huge proportion of British people opposed the war on the basis that it did not follow norms of international justice. So when we see that the Israelis persist with settlements and annexation of land, we cannot condone this any more than we could with our own government.

adi

Ms. Melanie, is China an enemy to US? Why you always look at this world as black and white? You are still in the cold war dream. If you try to influence the America people with this kind of unproductive views, the world is never been in peace. I fully support Obama's decision, there must be a Change in mind set.

Adam B.

George laird,

What on earth are you on about? Your last post simply made no sense. Are you saying you want israel to provide troops for Iraq and Afghanistan?

Please be more lucid - if you are capable.

Ayatollah Ghilmeini

A few thoughts, and Melanie, you are this generations Orwell.

I find it appalling anyone could think the world is better place because the Chinese revolution failed at Tienanmen Square. Image a democratic China supporting allied efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq, controlling North Korea and not shipping melamine tainted food to the west because they have normal depoliticized quality inspectors...... the mind reels at how much better the world would be. How about the thousands who might not have died in the recent earthquake because China might have had modern building inspectors.

Poor Laird, whether Israel has troops in Afghanistan or Iraq is less relevant than the unassailable fact that Israeli intelligence has saved thousands of lives in the west over the years, maybe millions; people forget that Saddam Hussein was psychotic murderer, what would he have done if Israel had not stopped his nuclear program? With people like Laird striving to destroy the Jewish people through an inversion the notion of human rights, one must conclude leftist morality is jut like regular morality, only different.

Try this on for size Mr. Laird, Israel just fought a war in which people like you accused her of genocide but somehow, despite the use of some of the most powerful weapons known to mankind, caused only a few hundred civilian casualties in three weeks of fighting. You have already tried the Jews and found them wanting; there is no need to study the facts. Even the sentence is ready.

And speaking as a member of the Israel lobby, if we had anything to say about it, Chas Freeman would be inspecting the tree slug population of Anchorage Alaska before he ever git where he is now.
How anyone can look at the misery and suffering of the Islamic world and blame Israel not the incompetents, thieves and murderers who run most of Islamic countries suggests that those who see Israel not as a friend of the west look in the mirror and say these magic words: "it is because of people like me that Israel has developed a nuclear capability." We trusted the George Lairds once before, as the song goes, "we won't be fooled again."

David

"Why should Melanie Phillips apologise for being proven right (again)? "

She claimed Obama would participate. The US will not. She was wrong. Again. Face it.

Vision Aforethought

@Ayatollah Ghilmeini: Brilliant! Is anyone archiving the best of this blog? Some of the writing here should be published in multiple languages and air dropped across the planet to enlighten the brainwashed before it is too late and the relatively short period of freedom the previously liberated have enjoyed since the middle of the last century is bought to a gradual and unpleasant conclusion.

Meanwhile, in other news...

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/02/28/somalia.sharia/index.html

Truthtriumphs

Dereck BLADES.
Walt and Mearsheimer ARE antisemitic, they just try the old camouflage technique by referring to it as the "Israel lobby".
Any visitor from Mars would wonder as to all the fuss about the Israel lobby. After all, BLADES, it hasn't been all that successful really, has it---- all it's managed to achieve is less than one sixth of 1% of Arabia--- barren land for the remnant of its persecuted people---you need a magnifying glass to see Israel on the map. The Arabs, on the other hand, have, with bloody conquest, stolen vast areas of other people's lands with lots of oil with which to hold the world to ransom.
No, the thing that really grates upon Walt, Mearsheimer and yourself is Jewish success against all the odds, and the huge contribution of Jewish talent from tiny numbers,to human advancement and betterment.

Ayatollah Ghilmeini

How was she wrong? Obama tried. US diplomats sat in a room as vile bigotry spewed from the "hallowed" halls of international diplomacy; to America's shame, they said and did nothing. When it became obvious that even the solar brilliance of the light that shines from Obama's leftist heart could not illuminate the Durban II sewer, Obama cut his losses. But oh how he tried to reach out to the hatemongers of Iran, Cuba and Libya.

Maybe during his third term.....

A wasted exercise

Tom the Redhunter

I think we can put to rest the notion, advanced by some on the right, that Obama would govern as a moderate.

Between this and his Porkulus, he's worse than Jimmy Carter.

Winston Smith

Herbert Thornton
February 27th, 2009 7:20pm,

You are very correct in your analysis. Gramscian Hegemony is working a dream at the moment. There is strong anti semitism and anti Americanism, helped along by the Muslim students association in our Universities, funded by Saudi Arabia, that's rubbing off on the Non Muslim left and anyone opposing this, most notably from the right is immediately branded racist and Islamaphobic.
Regarding the BNP, well, it's the only party that the British people know is NOT a vote for Islamisation of the UK, not forgetting the immediate removal of the UK from Europe and National Sovereignty again. The main three are looked upon as the Main ONE - the NuLabConLiberal Alliance. All of these parties would continue to welcome Saudi Sharia Finance and Wahabism, not forgetting continued immigration from the EU and Non EU. After all the the EU runs the UK, the UN runs the EU and the OIC runs the UN. What a dreadful situation we're in.

To the American people, you voted in change and you've got Tony Blair and NuLabour mrk II. LOL
I'm sorry for the laugh but really, you should have seen this coming. Worse still, when Obama has destroyed the USA, as to where the UK currently is, any complaints lodged against him will just be written of as Racist Rants from the right.
Last point as well, within 4 years of Nulabour government the Muslim population grew by 400%, in fact many believe that the figure of 2million in the UK(3% of the pop) is actually closer to 4million(6%).
Oh boy, what you have to look forward to in the USA. I can't wait when hate speech is law along with an International "Incitement to Religious Hatred and defamation of Islam" bill is passed.

I suppose you have your guns in America, to fall back on, but then, wouldn't it be dreadful if Obama outlawed the carrying of firearms and only the police were allowed to carry them? You say it will never happen, but never say never. I'm sure the people in Britain felt the same, but over a period of 70 years, they managed to completely disarm the people of the UK.
I can see many Americans pulling their hair out in frustration and all those stupid Jewish people who voted for Obama, even with his anti semitic background and Jew hating associates.

An American

beloved,
I'm not sure we can get it done at the ballot box...Obama and his liberal cronies are pushing their liberal agenda through as quickly as possible...hoping to fool the American public before they wake up to the fact that they may soon be living in the United Socialist States of America.

Then, the only way to save our country and its freedoms will be to have an honest to God revolution...the real thing.

It would be worth it to sacrifice my life for my country. America has been so very good to me and mine...we've worked hard and America has rewarded our efforts. I want that for my grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

Yes...there is still hope...didn't Reagan do away with the income tax that exceeded 70% on the wealthy?

This is not just about high taxes...it is about our very freedoms of speech and thought. I believe that Obama has more plans in store for us than just high taxes...he wants compete control and is evil incarnate. Wonder how he will hide his 666.

An American

Harley Davidson,

Makes complete sense to me...

Derek BLADES

Lizzie Smith, 28 February writes "Israel, our ally, is fighting Hamas and Hezbollah, Islamic fundamentalist Iran's proxies. All part of the same global war against Islamic fundamentalism."

The results of Israel fighting Hamas and Hezbollah are that Hezbollah is now the leading member of the Lebanese government and Hamas has an even larger majority of support in Gaza and the West Bank. With an ally like that who needs enemies?
Lizzie, try looking at the world as it is and not through your paranoid looking-glass.

Shy Guy

David
March 1st, 2009 12:43am:

She claimed Obama would participate. The US will not. She was wrong. Again. Face it.

No. At the time Melanie wrote her Durban articles, the US indeed was actively taking part in the Durban conference preparations, including negotiating drafts of opening joint resolutions.

Face it.

And grow up.

Shy Guy

To answer Melanie's question in this article's title: evil.

CelticLeopard

Melanie said,

"He [Chas W Freeman] is not simply a vicious enemy of Israel, pushing for a one-state solution ie the destruction of Israel."

The relentless construction of 'facts on the ground' has destroyed the possibility of a two- state solution. It would seem that the Israeli democracy has (unwittingly) sown the seeds of self-destruction by pushing the one-state solution.

Jenny

"She claimed Obama would participate. The US will not."

Wrong, David. The US did participate by sending a delegation to delegation to Geneva.

I know you Guardian readers are scared of facts but you won't wash them away on this blog. Deal with it.

David

Hah! Can't stand the Guardian. Left wing ideological rubbish.

Linda

Derek Blades:

Correlation is not causality

Linda Smith

Derek Blades:
I observe that you resort to calling me Lizzie.

I must really be getting under you skin!!!

Jenny

Then stop acting like one of Rusbridger's goons.

Ann

"The relentless construction of 'facts on the ground' has destroyed the possibility of a two- state solution. It would seem that the Israeli democracy has (unwittingly) sown the seeds of self-destruction by pushing the one-state solution."

Nonsense. First of all, buildings can be abandoned (cf. Sinai, Gaza). Secondly, what you are saying that any putative 'Palestinian' state must not have Jews in it. That is ... err ... just a tad racist, perhaps?

Anth

No, Melanie, his appointment does not necessarily compromise the USA's ability to act effectively on the world stage. You've highlighted facts about him that give cause for concern, but no evidence for believing him to be a security risk. He seems to have a good understanding of the Muslim and Arab perspectives and could well provide the internal dialectic necessary to achieve balance. For example on Iran, a more comprehensive US policy capable of attracting wider international support for decisive – i.e. painful, probably military - action would be vastly preferable to Israel having to lauch a preemptive attack unilaterally.
(But I think on this last point I’m indulging in wishful thinking and trying to rewrite the Bible.)

Linda Smith

I would like to point out that Jenny's post "Then stop acting like one of Rusbridger's goons" was in response to David's post of 10.33am, which is printed directly above my own response to Derek Blades "I must really be getting under your skin."

phil

D. BLADES---"For what it did in Lebanon and Gaza, Israel has been widely and vigorously condemned by people of good sense throughout the world. That does not make us hypocrites-----."-GOOD SENSE IN YOUR DICTIONARY TRANSLATES TO ANTI-SEMITES and that is a description that you will know I rarely ever use.You showed your true colours the other day when you tried to post your disgusting views on the condolences thread and achieved it by mistake for a short time-I am pleased to say I notified Pete and it was taken down -your behaviour was unspeakable ,how anyone could write like that on a thread where we were offering the family our heartfelt sympathy is beyond me -Many will remember what you did,and what you are . I hope Pete will put this up especially for all of us who were so offended ---------------------------------------------------perhaps perhaps you did not see the above which I posted some time ago but it bears repeating when you continue to air your despicable views .

Adam B.

Derek Blades, so not only are you a hypocrite, working for the Chinese government whilst demonising democratic Israel, you are also an old school misogynist.

What a charmer you are.

Frank P

Those on both sides of the debate here seem to keep forgetting that Obama is not in charge; he is the tool of cabal of revolutionaries and crooks who manipulate him and feed his teleprompter. He's the mellifluous trumpeter, but he didn't write the score he's handed. Just wait and see what happens if and when he tries a little improvisation. And remember too that he sleeps with one of his most powerful manipulators: the black version of Hanoi Jane; it's the mean lips; teeth and glittering eyes that reveal the constant Marxist snarl - regardless of how she forms her cheeks into a superficially disarming smile and uses their daughters to convey the impression of the all-American mom. It's revenge, not progress and unification she's after. Watch out America! Britain has been through almost 12 years of the internationist leftist process and we're dead in the Herring Pond. Beware the Gook bearing gifts next week. He's there to save his own ass, not yours. His prescriptions are poisonous as we know only too well. Sadly most of you did a very bad thing last November and proved that 'democracy' can get it badly wrong. Unless you start the process of correction in two years time, we are all doomed to betray the dead of two world wars and every sacrifice for freedom since.

Frank P

More proof of the deep integrity of The One and his desire spend the monet wisely:

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/bronx/2009/02/28/2009-02-28_buildings_sprang_up_as_donations_rained_.html

h/t Dan Collins (Protein Wisdom blog)

An American

Winston Smith,

Please don't blame me for voting in Obama...remember that approximately 47% of Americans voted against the Messiah.

Otherwise, you are correct on all your points and many Americans are well aware of the enormous problems ahead of us.

Obama, along with giving Gaza close to a billion dollars...a reward for constantly stirring their pot of hatred... has also inviting close to 200,000 Palestinians to immigrate here...I wonder how many jihadists will be among those immigrants...invited into our very heartland.

Yes, many of us can see what is happening.

What has been a real eye-opener to me is how little power the people really have...Obama is like a dictator with the help of the Pelosie and Reid. They are literally ramming their liberal socialist agenda down out throats.

If we can vote Obama out in four years...he will have done so much damage, I wonder if it can ever be undone.

And then, there is the census. The liberals are going to try to change our electoral college to represent only the higher population states on the liberal west and east coasts. If that happens, Conservatives in the rest of the country will never be able to overcome Obama's socialist agenda.

We do have guns, but the libs are busy as I write... in taking them away...if they can't do that, they will try to limit-take the bullets. Bullets do degrade with time.

It's a very sad thing when you believe you need guns to protect yourself from your own government.

The liberals pushed us into this financial quagmire to gain power. It's a tired saying, but the inmates are now running the asylum...this is all so very crazy. To ruin a great nation for a distorted, unsucessful political belief.

You are right, out Republic is in real trouble.

Winston Smith

An American,

Please understand that when I say "Americans" I mean those Americans that voted for Obama. I of course know that many didn't, although I really still cannot understand why so many whites supported him not forgetting Jewish people too, especially with his Black power, Black Supremacist, Islamist and Anti Semitic associates and to some extent past history.
There were many intelligent Americans who weren't taken in with the hype and pazaz. The Obama Worship was similar to the Diana Worship here in the UK and I can gladly say I had no part of that or both come to think of it.
Your comment could also be a breakdown of Nulabour in the UK. It's ironic isn't it?
I really hate to say it but with the socialist policies that obama will reap on America, this will gain him yet more support from the "bums" in society, like NuLabour has done here. You will also see the rise of Huge increase in Gay/Lesbian/Transexual rights as they take superiority over the majority heterosexuals, teenage pregnancies, the destruction of the family, increase in IVF, increases in Gay Adoption and IVF for Gays. In fact the traditional family in the USA will simply die out as it has here. You will begin to see much more Minority control and of course an upsurge in Political correctness. You will see more power from the state as it tightens its grip on society. yo may very well see more CCTV. You will also see the state take the roll as the father, especially as radical feminism grows to "Hate the male".
If you really want to know where the USA's headed then just read up in the last 12 years of NuLabour in the UK. If you want to see where Islam in the USA's going, then just read up on Islamic growth under NuLabour.
Sorry for the doom and gloom An American, but the saying does stick "a country deserves the government they elect". It couldn't be simpler. Sadder still the School of Frankfurt, that came to the USA escaping the Nazis, really has done a number on your country. Their "Marxist Critical Theory" with their destruction of everything the West stands for is working like a dream. Isn't it ironic that those you welcome into your country, who are escaping persecution, should not just bight the hand that feeds them but destroy the rest of the body as well?
That's gratitude for you!

Augustus

However much America is currently afflicted with Hopenosis, unbridled socialists never change and their plans never succeed:

"One could almost wonder whether the Government do not reconcile themselves to the economic misfortunes of our country, to which their mismanagement has so notably contributed, because these misfortunes give the pretext of establishing even more controls and an even larger bureaucracy. They make mistakes which make things worse. As things get worse they claim more power to set them right. Thus they move ever nearer to the scheme of the All-powerfull State, in which the individual is a helpless serf or pawn. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
-Winston Churchill

Derek BLADES

Phil's comment of 1st March about my posting on Ms Phillips' Condolences site will have puzzled anyone who bothered to read it. In my posting I made the obvious point that while we were all touched by the death of the Cameron child, most of those who expressed their condolences seem to have been unmoved by the deaths of hundreds of Palestinian children during Israel's war on Gaza. My heart goes out to parents everywhere who lose children whether they are Arabs living in Gaza or the leader of the Tory party. Perhaps the problem is that I see the inhabitants of Gaza as human beings with the same feelings, hopes and desires as the rest of us.

stanley Jerusalem

Derek BLADES - You are a pathetic opportunist.
Do you believe that the leaders of Hamas hiding in their bunkers under schools and hospitals in Gaza City or safe in Damascus think about the inhabitants of the Gaza strip like that?
What a deluded idiot!

Janet

"Israel's War on Gaza" as you call it Mr. Derek Blade was in retaliation for seven years of continual rocket attacks into Israel..how many times does this have to be explained..no one likes to see people being killed..except of course Hamas
Hizbollah, Jihad Islamists....
those barbarians are taught from birth to kill.. there are always innocent victims in every war..and Israel has lost many innocent "human beings" over the years, men, women and children..complete families..
Gaza is ruled by Hamas, the fate of the innnocent "human beings" lies in their hands..
By the way, rockets are still being fired into Israel every day since the ceasefire five weeks ago, hamas are still using hospitals, mosques, schools to continue their deadly deeds...why isn't the media reporting this now..maybe they are saving themselves for when Israel retaliates but of course you wouldn't have known why..

True Brit

The Right are washed-up and powerless. Capitalism has been brought to its knees.

Left-wing, Socialist politicians form the government in the countries that matter. Marx has won.

Robert

'Buildings can be abandoned'-really, Ann? A disingenuous and pathetic justification for the settlement policy. The West Bank settlements will not be easily abandoned, and are part of a process designed to improve Israel's claim on the territory. They are not simply buildings, they are accompanied by infrastructure including roads from which Palestinians are barred from using.
It is yet another problem which future generations of Palestinians and Israelis will have to deal with. Look at Northern Ireland 300 years after the plantations.

Jenny

Sorry, Linda, I didn't expect your post to be above mine! I was indeed responding to David.

Frank P, all your reading of Mark Steyn has put you in a purple prose mood! I really enjoyed that post and thanks for the links to Steyn. Steyn is like the anti-venom to reading articles by the ghastly Peter Oborne. How we could do with him back over here.

Do check out Mark Steyn's website or on the National Review website. He's just writing sublime stuff at the moment from what I read today.

Penny

Hello Robert,

Thank you for your post. I really wouldn't know where to begin without writing a thesis.

I wonder if you would consider reading a post I wrote on Melanie's blog, 'Requiem...'? It's really a precursor to this one. It appears at 3.19pm. It might make this one more understandable.

The point I am trying to make is that we Westerners have not only a specific mindset and logic, but also a set of values which we assume are the same the world over.

We value life. We value justice, humanitarianism, human rights and democracy. However, what we can't seem to get into our heads is that those values are not necessarily held in high esteem in other parts of the world. Indeed, they are sometimes seen as weak, sentimental and immoral - but, nevertheless, pretty good for exploitation purposes. I mean, just how did Arafat find the money to build a casino in Jericho instead of the hospital he promised his people? How did he manage to own a private plane or provide his wife with so much money that her spending sprees were legend? And why did his people remain impoverished?

We tried to export our values to Iraq and Afghanistan, believing that we were 'freeing' the people and 'winning hearts and minds'. And yet, six years later, we're still trying to convince them.....

We ignored the radical preachers in the UK, believing no one in their right, Western, minds would listen to them. Wrong!! When we realised people were listning, we threw yet more of our values at the problem in the form of advisors, think-tanks, community cohesion projects and even more laws which are suffocating our own culture. And yet - the values espoused by those teachers have spread even futher!!

Remember the Danish cartoon debacle (nothing to do with Israel) and the placards those young men held? Or the chants such as 'Democracy - Hypocrisy'? To say nothing of 'Death to the West' and 'Bin Laden is Coming'. Some young men have gone to Pakistan to train in Jihadist camps; some are in Afghanistan fighting us. A few bombed us. And still, we don't get it.

As yet, this 'Jihad' thing is not overly-strong in the UK. It's growing - as it is in many other countries. I wonder where we will be in 50yrs time and whether or not we'll be able to handle the matter in a Western, humanitarian fashion?

You may speak of justice, but our version isn't necessarily valued in the ME. In Gaza, for example, there are summary beatings and executions. The authorities are in their second sitting of a motion to enable Sharia to pass into law - complete with crucifixion.

Hamas does not see our values as worthy. They say this quite openly. They don't value life in the same way that we do. Life, for them, is about Jihad. It's dying in the glorious cause of Allah and becoming Shihad. They run summer schools for 12yr olds to teach them how to be suicide bombers; a long-term strategy that will be very difficult to reverse even if peace comes. Young men want to be martyrs in many parts of the ME, not just Gaza. It's nothing to do with Israel; it's the long-term aim of a Caliphate. Israel could hand over all the land tomorrow and it won't alter the situation.

Contrast this 'glorious death by Shihad' value with your average Western kid. In some parts of the ME, the pin-up guys are Shihadists and the dream is to die a martyr. Meanwhile, in the West the kids look up to pop stars and footballers and hope for a job, perhaps a family and a full life. Very, very different values.

You know how Hamas fights; in civilian areas, using children as human shields and so on. You know that through the years of shelling Israel, Hamas built not a single shelter, devised not a single emergency policy to protect the people, nor did they implement an evacuation process to minimise casualties. Indeed, you'd have to be extremely stubborn not to concede that their military tactics seemed designed to maximise death and injury. Why?

Well, just like some of the African despots, there are factions in the ME that exploit our values. They know how to yank our chain. But whilst we're reaching for our wallets and our Western values, we should consider exactly who that money is going to. I'm all for supporting the ordinary Gazan people who aren't free to speak their minds (neither are the journalists). But I'm worried that all I'm hearing is Hamas and I'm loathe to support corruption.

If that sounds like just my view, read the following comment from Khalid Abu Toameh, a Palestinian journalist who worked for Arafat.

He says..
" My argument is as follows. The fact that Arafat was crooked didn't surprise us Palestinians. We were only surprised by the fact that the international community kept giving him money and refused to hold him accountable when he stole our money. Why didn't they invest something? They didn't want to believe it"

"By depriving these people of money, what did Arafat do? He radicalized the Palestinians who did not see the fruits of peace. So that's reason number one why Palestinian society is radicalized"

"Reasons number two is that you (USA) gave Yasser Arafat guns so that he could kill Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but instead he directed those guns against anyone who said they wanted reform or democracy"

"Reason number three. You gave Yasser Arafat money to open a TV and radio station. And on this TV and radio station Arafat said “Jihad, jihad, kill the crusaders, kill the Jews, kill the infidels, kill everyone but me.” Now you may ask yourself why Arafat was inciting against his peace partners in Israel, why was he inciting against the Americans and Europeans who were feeding him? It doesn't make sense"
"Well, to us it does make sense. This is how our Arab dictators survive. They constantly blame the miseries of our people on the Jews and the West and the Crusaders and the infidels and the Zionist lobby and the imperialists. They use all these slogans. Arab leaders always need to make sure that their people are busy hating somebody else, preferably the Jews and the Americans. Otherwise their people might rebel, and God forbid they might demand reforms and democracy"

Penny

With regard to the West Bank, it would seem that Fatah is seeking out and torturing 'alleged' Hamas supporters whilst in Gaza, Hamas is doing the same to 'alleged' Fatah supporters.

Khalid Abu Toameh claims that if the Israeli's pulled out of the West Bank tomorrow, Hamas would take over.

His views of Hamas:

"The one in Gaza is an Islamic state run by Hamas and supported by Ahmadinejad, Syria, Hezbollah, and some people say Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood. It’s a very dangerous situation, and as a moderate Muslim that’s the last place I want to live on this earth"

"Hamas is not a partner for any peace agreement because Hamas is not going to change. All these people who believe that Hamas will one day change its ideology, that pragmatic leaders will emerge in Hamas, these people are living under illusions. Hamas is not going to change. To their credit we must say that their message has been very clear. It’s the same message in Arabic and in English. They’re being very honest about it. They’re saying “Folks, we will never recognize Israel. We will never change. We will not abandon the path of the resistance.” They’re very clear about it."

On Journalism..

"When Arafat returned to the West Bank and Gaza from his exile, his security forces ignored pursuing terrorists and instead arrested independent journalists not loyal enough to the PLO. Over 38 journalists were forced out of their jobs or the country. This was not given much attention by the foreign media because at the time Arafat was allowed to do whatever he wanted in the name of Oslo. Although they did not cover the story heavily, I was not alone in pointing out to foreign journalists that the first thing Arafat did when PLO returned to the territories was to restrict freedom of speech."

"Arafat has complete control over the Palestinian media to this day. Almost all Palestinian newspapers are financed by the PLO, and serve as a mouthpiece for the organization, which is basically Arafat's office. Some days the headlines for the three major Palestinians papers are identical. The lack of freedom at these papers is a big disappointment for Palestinian journalists; they were freer to write what they wanted under Israeli occupation before the PLO returned from exile."

"Arafat's suppression of free speech is another example of an Arab leader not allowing the people to speak out. In this way Arafat is no different from other Arab dictators, who see the role of the media as subservient to – and a mouthpiece for – their regimes. In the Arab world, if you are an independent journalist or you criticize the regime, then you are branded a traitor – and that kind of suppression of dissent is how dictatorial Arab regimes survive."

And Hamas is worse than the PLO. We really don't know what goes on.

Greg

This guy sounds like Allen Dulles all over again. Read the book "Secret War Against the Jews."

Adam B.

Derek Blades, your behaviour on the other thread was disgusting. (You really know about a time and a place).

It stems from an arrogant belief that only you are sensitive, only you understand suffering, and everyone else is horrible and nasty and callous.

I note from your comments that your sympathy does not extend to Israeli children.

The loss of any children is tragic - each individual loss is an absolute tragedy. Surely, if we are to avoid the loss of innocents in the future, Hamas can take some responsibility for the situation and stop firing rockets - they have fired almost 100 since their so-called "ceasefire" began.

What is Israel meant to do - sit on their hands and wait for one to hit a kindergarten before they are allowed respond?

I take it that you are a pacifist?

Adam B.

One other thing Derek Blades - isn't it rather hypocritical of you to speak of your "sensitivity" for Palestinian children, when you worked for the Chinese government, the same government which brutalizes Tibet 9and its own people) and mowed down thousands of unarmed students in Tianenmen square?

Dave M

Herbert Thornton, the problem is this: Willy Hague did his level best to confront this mass immigration, multiculturalism ideology in a sensible way. There was a real chance for people to go out and vote against New Labour yet they totally rejected the Tories at the ballot box. This is the problem. In fact, the Tories were bashed hard which is why David Cameron has now simply abandoned any idea of challenging mass immigration. We saw the same thing happen when Robert Kilroy Silk formed his Veritas Party after having been hounded out of the BBC for making some unwise rant or other against Islamic radicalism. Nobody seriously expected Veritas to catapult itself into mainstream politics but surely voters could have given his stance some support? In fact, Kilroy lost his deposit and gave the whole idea up before finally making an appearance on reality T.V.
Yet what people did vote for (and have voted for time and time again) is a party that devastated this country. I mean, literally. In the heyday years of Maggy Thatcher I recall being a typical working class individual who got a totally free uni education under a Tory Government. There were far higher levels of social welfare, better education, far more industry and far more freedom. Yet New Labour over time has led students into debt, left the armed forces in major decline, opened up the borders to Jihadists and criminal gangs, screwed up the economy and damaged the values of liberty and democracy. They've also scoffed at any concept of national identity or interest. It cannot be understated the damage New Labour has brought about and this was a danger the population fully understood back in the eighties. Everybody back then knew Old Labour was way too radical and couldn't lead the country. Sadly today, many voters just aren't aware how they've been let down and cheated. Thus, to my mind the BNP attracts various types of people. There are those who are outright racists. There are those who are not racist at all but don't wish to be part of a multicultural melting pot. There are those who simply seek to use the BNP to frighten the main parties so they'll actually stop mass immigration with all its implications. Many people loath Labour to such a degree and feel disappointed by the Tories that they vote BNP for the sock of a bloody nose.

Frank P

Jenny. "... all your reading of Mark Steyn has put you in a purple prose mood!"

Heh, heh, heh! Well, he does hit the buttons, 'tis true. But his own shade of deep purple is as idiosyncratic and inimitable as Earl Bostic's.

I'm also becoming a fan of Jenny and Penny - are you two twins? You certainly seem to be firing from the same machine gun.

You'd better not reply to this comment, or we'll be told to 'get a room' by the trolls who lurk hereabouts. But you'll note that Melanie's kindred spirits still outnumber the fellow travellers. And Melanie deserves all the support she can get, so keep up the good work.

Augustus - thank you for reminding us of WSC's musing on socialism: as fresh and pertinent for today as it was when he coined it; perhaps even more so.

DH

All of which, Penny, has precisely nothing to do with Robert's point about the settlements

Derek BLADES

Linda Smith. First let me apologise for getting your name mixed up. In my mind's eye I see you as a "busy Lizzie" spending most of your waking hours tending to Melanie's blogs. Anyway it was inexcusable on my part and I hope you will accept my apology.

On 1st March you posted a cryptic one-liner "Correlation is not causality". This was in reply to a posting of mine in which I noted that Israel's wars on Lebanon and Gaza have been followed by enhanced support for Hezbollah and Hamas in Lebanon and Gaza respectively.

"Correlation" is not quite the word you want. This is a technical statistical term and best avoided by the layperson. I think what you had in mind is the logical fallacy known by its Latin tag – “post hoc ergo propter hoc”: because B happened after A it is assumed that B happened because of A. You are quite right in suggesting that I believe there is causality between Israel's recent wars and the subsequent growth in support for Hezbollah and Hamas. I base this on the analogy with the playground bully. The little chap who stands up to him may end up the worse for wear but he wins the support and admiration of his playmates for having the guts to take him on. I strongly suspect that something of that kind explains the growth in support for Hezbollah and Hamas.

You apparently deny this. Perhaps you think the increased support was due to some quite random event - more sunspot activity for example or the unfathomable outcome of dislodging a butterfly from its perch in a neighbouring country. But I do not want to put words into your mouth Linda, so why not give us your version?

phil

Penny .-Hitler said it loud and clear and the government of the time did not believe he would do what he promised -we all know the results of that and 20 million dead at the end of it or maybe more -We are at war with a form of Islam but it seems once again it is not PC to say it .-------------

What we write here is mostly for the converted ,in fact a very small group and even here we are attacked usually by crass individuals ,fortunately,but if you read the comments in the independent and guardian ,you will see the hatred and demonisation that is amongst us in this country .Much of the problem is that we have been raised as Brits to care for the "underdog" and to be polite and not to make a fuss.those that obey the rules do exactly that and it is the others we hear from .I still believe that the overwhelming majority of British people think like we do but do not shout like the others and I hope I am right !

phil

D blades------"Phil's comment of 1st March about my posting on Ms Phillips' Condolences site will have puzzled anyone who bothered to read it" --------

-I DO NOT THINK SO ,WE HERE UNDERSTAND YOU WELL .you could have apologised for invading a site purely for condolences and one which even George Laird managed to convey his sympathies ,but you chose not to and merely compounded your callousness .Do you think anyone is really interested in the thoughts of derek the blade ?.Your sarcastic and patronising response to Linda easily defines you and the ignorance you continually display .

JJS

Adam B, I agree with you. Blades IS a hypocrite. The only right he seems to care about is the right to obliterate Israel and Jews. The rest is just a smokescreen. Sad but true.

Penny

Dear DH

I was responding to comment Robert made about an earlier post of mine - which itself was a reply to Mr Laird.

Robert's post about settlements was not his first.

The connection is quite clear to me.

Linda Smith

Derek Blades: "Correlation" is not quite the word you want. This is a technical statistical term and best avoided by the lay person....."

I am not a lay person.

Linda Smith

Derek Blades: You made yet another false assumption in assuming that I spend most of my waking hours "tending to Melanie's blogs". As unfortunately I have other things to do at the moment, I cannot immediately respond to your request "why not give us your version". But I will.

Ronnie

Derek Blades, it is too simplistic to claim that increased support for Hamas and Hezbollah has come as a direct result, only, of Israeli actions.

The failure of the PLO in general and Fatah in particular, to represent their people effectively over the years and to behave in a rational and accountable way, has driven many away and alientated the younger generation.

Indeed the PLO can be regarded as the founder of factionalism and patronage, a situation that has easily been exploited by the Israelis and their supporters. I sense that Hamas may be no better but that Hezbollah may be a stronger organisation.

It used to be said that Israel needed a credible partner for peace talks and that the PLO did not properly fulfil that role. Now that it is clear that neither Hamas nor Hezbollah are actually interested in peace, Israel has two options.

Either reassess the relationship with a much weakened PLO or accept that peace, based on a two state solution, is an idea whose time has passed - for the moment.

As things stand, any peace agreement signed with the PLO is only half a deal and there is no guarantee that the PLO will be around long enough to enforce it in the West Bank.

George Laird

Dear phil

“George Laird you need to answer questions before you have the impudence to ask anyone else -mine for instance”.

Thank you for claiming, I am impudent for asking pertinent questions, I am on occasion, it is part of my sparkling personality!

“btw your quote "I don't subscribe to that notion and I wonder why you keep trotting it out." --who do you think cares a damn what you think apart from you”.

Well obviously you do as you have continually fired into have a pop at me. You care enough to get in my face and I have no problem getting in your face either.

“yours sincerely-phil- the campaign for our human rights not to read so much garbage from you ,backed up by all the other twits who object to being bracketed with you !”

I have looked at your title and feel it is too long and suggest that you might want to cut it down so that the public can remember it.

On another thread you asked if someone saying something nice to me upset me.

No it did not; I hope this clears that point up to your satisfaction.

Finally; human rights allows you the right of free speech, however it doesn’t give you a right of reply. I hope this helps you understand human rights better.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Herbert Thornton

Phil -

Your posting (March 2nd, 2009 10:40am) expresses the problem in a nutshell - that the real evil now stalking the world (aided, sadly by many foolish westerners) is Islam - but few people dare say so.

As for Britain, the most chilling aspect is - as Dave M (March 2nd, 2009 12:56am) has pointed out - there is no hope whatsoever that David Cameron & has the slightest intention of facing up to it, any more than has the Labour Party.

To my mind, those facts outweigh the trivia of all other squabbles.

Adam B.

derek blades, Israel is not the bully, that title belongs to the Islamofascists of Hamas and Hizbollah.

And what evidence can you produce to back your claim that Hamas is now more popular than before Cast Lead?

Adam B.

Please note derek blades has not been able to reply to the charge that he is a hypocrite, having worked for the totalitarian and blood drenched Chinese Communist government.

What a hypocrite.

Winston Smith

Herbert Thornton
March 2nd, 2009 6:10pm,

Let's look at the big picture here. The big picture, that is, (I truly believe)that the MSM and government won't address.

1. Sharia Finance. This is holding up the British Economy and it comes all the way from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States. Worse still it comes with a catch:

a) Unhindered promotion of Wahabism in Islamic faith schools and universities.
b) Continued unhindered preaching of Wahabism in Mosques, preached by Foreign Imams in Arabic/Urdu.
c) The bringing of Imams into state and church schools with which to promote and teach Islam to Non Muslims.
d) Setting up of Islamic Study courses and Muslims student Associations in Universities, currently also being funded by Saudi Arabia.
e) More protection for Islam by the Police Force, regardless of Marches that are Anti British.
f) More respect for Islam from the Police Forces and establishments
g) Removal of the word Muslim from newspapers when it comes to describing terrorists, murderers.
h) No negative discussion of Islam in the Newspapers, especially from "right wing" Dutch politicians.
i) Almost enforcing the current OIC's wishes of the UN to make discussion on Islam hate speech.
j) (no doubt)The distancing of the UK from Israel in favour of Palestine.
k) More rights and exceptions made for separate Muslim swimming sessions, breaks for prayer and the wearing of Islamic dress.

2. Due to most of part one there are the following:

a) Police are reluctant to investigate Islamist crimes in the UK, for fear of court proceedings being lodged against them for racism and Islamaphobia.
b) Police are reluctant to become heavy handed should Muslim Marches get out of hand as we have seen in the past, in previous Islamist marches like the one in London, after Israel's assault on Palestine after 8 years of relentless attack, that ended up in the police being chased through the streets and with Jewish people and businesses being attacked for being Jewish.
c) A crackdown on memberships to right wing parties that are against Islamisation with witch hunts and people losing their jobs

3. The government's long standing arms, heavy weaponry and munitions contracts to Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States will immediately be put under threat with the loss of some 50,000 jobs Nationwide, plunging the UK into even deeper recession.

The appeasement is to Islam, but more importantly being orchestrated by Saudi Arabia. Alas, the enemy of the West is not Afghanistan or Iraq, far from it as Saudi Arabia had everything to win by a Western War with Iraq. Saddam Hussein also had Oil, therefore you knock out the competition, although this was a relatively small part. Saddam Hussein's Iraq was the closest any Islamic country got to being a 'western state'. Christian's could worship openly and never had to fear persecution. Women could study and go to University, also being allowed to dress like Westerners, should they so choose. Women also held positions in the Parliament. It was one of the most secular countries in the Islamic World. All one has to do is look at Saudi Arabia to see that possession of a Bible is a criminal offence. More importantly of all, Saudi Arabia knew that if saddam was removed then chaos would ensue. They knew that an attack by the West would allow Islamism in, something that Saddam kept at bay in his war against Iran. I believe that the whole Iraq war was planned with Saudi Arabia in mind.

David Cameron, will do nothing to change any of the points made. It will simply be another colour taking over, from red to blue as the policies will still be the same. Islamisation is the catch if the UK allows Sharia Finance. Cameron will not listen to the Majority. He is merely a mayor in the state of London for Brussels, themselves puppets for the UN, themselves puppets for the Organisation of Islamic Conference, oddly enough a majority of Islamist Countries that do not adhere to EU Human rights and Humanitarian issues. We are seeing the Islamisation of the UK and in fact the whole of the West, all because of one thing - MONEY!

Adam B.

George laird, your last ever lengthy post contained no substance about the subject of this thread at all.

What's the point?

Dave M

"Police are reluctant to investigate Islamist crimes in the UK, for fear of court proceedings being lodged against them for racism and Islamaphobia."

Exactly right. What is more, I concluded long ago anyone who allows his or herself to be taken in by the whole multiculturalism misconception is being misled. From the outset, multiculturalism has masked itself under the veil of "tolerance" when, in fact, it has always discriminated. Not only that but the billions of pounds New Labour has spent on importing foreign nationals, hiring translators, forcing diversity and so on could have been channeled into education and the economy. In fact, we were already overpopulated. Moreover, we were spoon fed the propaganda we needed immigrants to support our ageing populations.

Derek BLADES

Ronnie, March 2, posted a thoughtful reply to my earlier comment about the rise of Hamas.

I think, Ronnie, that you are too pessimistic about the possibilities of peace in the short-term. Let’s not give up too soon on the two-state solution. Both Obama and Clinton are on record as supporting it so the Netanyahu/Liebermann rejection of it is not really relevant.

One possible scenario is that the Clinton-Mitchell team start talking to Hamas either directly or through Egyptian go-betweens. (I agree with you that the PLO is a lost cause.) Provided that the US insists on the abandonment of all the post-1967 settlements on the West Bank my reading of Hamas' intentions is that they would then agree to a genuine peace settlement with Israel. Of course abandonment of the settlements does not mean that they are physically destroyed or that their Jewish inhabitants must leave them. Simply that they are incorporated into a West Bank state with the dwellings open to ownership by Arabs as well as Jews.

stanley Jerusalem

Derek BLADES - "Provided that the US insists on the abandonment of all the post-1967 settlements on the West Bank my reading of Hamas' intentions is that they would then agree to a genuine peace settlement with Israel."

What makes you think Hamas want peace? Have they given the slightest indication of ever having wanted peace?
They are an internationally- acknowledged terrorist organisation dedicated to the destruction of Israel.That alone is the only thing any of them has ever agreed upon. NOTHING ELSE.
Nothing!
Which source of wisdom are you relying upon in your reasoning? Please share it with us. No-one [except Carl and possibly the Laird of George]can see where you are coming from with this statement about Hamas'agreement to peace.
Wishful thinking may be laudable but at some stage reality must set in.

Ronnie

Derek, I think you are being too optimistic.

I see no evidence to support the idea that Hamas, as presently constituted, has any interest at all in peace with Israel.

Nor do I expect Israel, under Bibi, to accept any form of ceding or sharing of responsibility for their people settled on the West Bank.

You've not even mentioned security or Jerusalem.

There is a very wide gap between what we would like to happen and what is possible at the moment.

phil

georgie --so long as you stop having a pop at Jews and ISRAELIS I do not care what you think or write here -as for "getting at you" .I am glad you noticed ,because as you will have seen most posters are fed up with your interminable rubbish .you deign never to respond to difficult questions and only continue to make wild and inaccurate statements.IT WAS IN FACT ME WHO SAID SOMETHING "NICE" TO YOU AND I ASKED A SIMPLE QUESTION BUT IN YOUR IGNORANCE YOU DID NOT RESPOND . Now take your thumb out of your mouth,wipe the tears then you can continue to amuse us all with the thoughts of george .,
“yours sincerely----------
phil- the campaign for our human rights not to read so much garbage from you ,backed up by all the other twits who object to being bracketed with you !”

phil

george this was for you and on the wrong thread so I have taken the liberty of passing on the message from our dear friend and colleague sweetie----

Sweetie
March 2nd, 2009 3:43pm

George Laird, you are truly deluded. Hamas does not want to talk to Israel, it just wants it removed, as, no doubt do you. In light of this, do you have any more bright ideas>---HOPE YOU DO NOT MIND-“yours sincerely----------
phil- the campaign for our human rights not to read so much garbage from you ,backed up by all the other twits who object to being bracketed with you !”

Carl

Like it or not (and clearly most do not) Israel will have to negotiate with Hamas. Isn't it ironic that Israel supported Hamas a few years ago?

George Laird

Dear All

Recently Melanie Phillips has been getting on her high horse on some sort of moral crusade.

She wrote a piece in the Mail which clearly stated;

"Our police were never guilty of 'institutional racism' and it's time this witch hunt ended".

The reality is;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7918911.stm

Racism, violence, bullying and intimidation in a London Police Station!

Melanie Phillips got it wrong.

For some considerable time now Melanie has been asking for total support for the Israelis by British people, specifically those who are Jewish. Her argument is along the lines that Israelis are nice people and our allies.

The reality is;

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israels-death-squads-a-soldiers-story-1634774.html

Since when do British people support death squads?

Melanie Phillips got it wrong.

In Melanie’s attempts to brand people who believe in human rights and speak out about Israeli war crimes, she has sought to label them Jew Haters.

I cannot speak for everyone but during Andrew Sachs scandal, my support went immediately to the elderly German Jewish man. I called for Ross to be sacked for his treatment of Andrew Sachs.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/faithbased/3038511/why-russell-brand-soupsets-us.thtml

Melanie Phillips got it wrong.

If Melanie wishes to continue this high horse stance can I suggest she switches to a Shetland pony! That way she will have less distance to fall and give the bad weather ride on the grass to cushion any such falls.

Finally, this news must come as a shock to Melanie’s cheerleading squad on here who rush to criticism so quickly on her and Israel’s behalf.

What an awful let down for them when the truth comes out.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Carl

Assassination and kidnap are standard Israeli tactics, but of course we must always remember that they do not target civilians - unless they happen to be Arabs.

Sweetie

Drek BLADES, I wonder if your heart went out to the parents of many Israeli children who were killed or maimed by murderous Islamic terrorist suicide bombers.

Sweetie

George Laird, all that about Andrew Sachs only proves that you dislike Russell Brand and Jonathan Ross even more than Jews!!

Sweetie

And furthermore George Laird, anybody with an ounce of decency would be offended by Brand and Ross's behaviour, whether it was directed to a jew or anybody else. Are you saying that you objected even though Sachs is Jewish. How very nice and liberal of you. If you are trying to say that it proves you are not antisemitic, well it just proves you are. It is as bad as saying "some of my best friends are jewish". What an odious remark!

George Laird

Dear All

Does anyone have any ideas why some of the posts look like a transit van has crashed into them?

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Adam B.

George laird,

You write about supporting Andrew Sachs (a Jew no less - wow! A true sign of an objective mind if ever there was one!)

Do you think you could raise the level of your interminably lengthy and rambling compositions? Just a little?

George Laird

Dear Sweetie

"George Laird, all that about Andrew Sachs only proves that you dislike Russell Brand and Jonathan Ross even more than Jews!!"

Only in your simple mind sweetie, only in your simple mind.

Finally, why not a crack about the other two points, not up to the task? Always with no substance, aren't you.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

stanley Jerusalem

Sweetie - What a typo!

Winston Smith

George Laird,

A long reply is not needed to deal with your issues. All one has to do is see that you work for the "The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow" which in itself has utterly destroyed the UK, destroying the West and allowing Islamism to run rampant, not forgetting punish the innocent and reward the guilty.
This is what human rights has done and quite frankly it makes me sick to think, that people like you are promoting the defence and rights of people, whom many lost a long time ago, when they decided to follow what their faith tells them to do.
The Police and not institutionally racist and that's fact. If they were, then why is it I was brutally attacked, stabbed many times, bottled, bricked, kicked and punched and although the police knew who they were never brought any to justice? My attackers were Bangladeshi Muslims in the East End of London and I was lucky to have lived. If they were racist, would they not have moved mountains to bring to trial these people, who attacked a white man?
Your human rights culture will be the downfall of Western Society and your continuing fight for human rights is denying millions more theirs. It is a case for people like you that the needs of the few outweigh those of the many. you have no argument Mr Laird and I am sad to see that you are in a position with which to fill children's head with Human Rights rubbish being in a University.
Quite pathetic really.

phil

georgie boy I wish I could sue you ! my ribs are cracking from laughing at your nonsense and you should have to pay for my pain .Sweetie says it concisely in less then 6 column inches ,we do not need "friends" like you -we need them out in the open as you usually are, not slithering down a wall like a lump of lard -I doubt that Mr Sachs would want you in the trenches with him .Sweetie has just arrived and sussed you out immediately ,well done Sweetie !!can you send some tape for my ribs ?

Michael B

George Laird,
Your self-caricaturizing schtick is morally myopic and intellectually boorish. Given your cartoonishly conceived human compassion, care to temporize profoundly on such as this? The world awaits your wizened opinings.

Linda Smith

Winston Smith: George Laird is not at Glasgow University. It's his own rights he's on about.

Sweetie

Stanley Jerusalem, that was no typo!!!

Sweetie

George Laird, my mind may be simple but at least it isn't filled with irrational hate.

Sweetie

Drek BLADES, You make me think that Hamas are really very nice people who want a friendly peace with Israel just as long as Hamas's demands are met. Wake up man, if you know as much about Hamas as you think you do, you must know that their charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Can you please explain to me how you can make peace with lunatics who want you dead. I am confident that a clever clogs like you will have the answer.

Linda Smith

Derek Blades: re your post 2 Mar 5.20am: What you call my "cryptic one liner" - correlation is not causality - is a basic fact of statistics, I haven't got time to give you a course in statistics just now. Suffice to say for the purposes here, in statistics, a correlation is a mathematical relationship between two variables. A mathematical relationship between two variables does not mean that one variable causes the other. For example, if all pregnant women ate cucumbers, this would not "prove" that eating cucumbers causes pregnancy.

In any case, your assertion that support for Hamas rose due to the recent conflict is false. A PCPO poll shows support for Hamas fell in Gaza from 52% in November to 20% at 11 Feb 09.

I quote from an article in the Jerusalem Post 2 Mar 09 "Puzzled in Gaza" by British Journalist Yvonne Green:
"No one praised their government as they showed me the sites of tunnels where fighters had melted away. No one declared Hamas victorious for creating a forced civilian front line as they showed me the remains of booby trapped homes and schools. From what I saw and was told in Gaza, Operation Cast Lead pinpointed a totalitarian regime's power bases and largely neutrilized Hamas's plans to make Israel its tool for the sacrifice of civilian life."

I do not know if your assertion that support for Hezbollah in Lebanon has risen since 2006 is true. If it has, other variables (factors) in addition to the conflict with Israel have to be considered:

Hezbollah is a militant Islamic fudamentalist organisation funded by Iran. It gains support by providing social infrastructure (funded by it paymaster Iran). Hezbollah also gains "support" by terror tactics.

There has been a global resurgence of militant Islamic Fundamentalism due to opportunity, Islam has been militant since it was invented 1400 years ago and only "peaceful" when restrained. (e.g Yugoslavia was quiet until repressive Tito died, then the lid came off and all hell was let loose again.)

Hezbollah's objective is to Islamize Lebanon. Support for Hezbollah within Lebanon is therefore also affected by internal politics, religious factionalism, shia versus shi'ite versus christian, and attitudes to Syria.

Ronnie and other posters have pointed out other variables.

Your highly selective and erroneous "analysis" exposes your usual bigotry, and is nothing but a conduit for your favourite occupation of Israel bashing.

phil

Stanley J -sweetie has a sharp wit hasn't she ? she certainly has collared our opening batsmen -I can see it now drek -0 ,lbw sweetie,georgie hit own middle wicket .b sweetie -0

Penny

Dear George

With respect, I find it a little disingenuous of you to say:

"Finally, why not a crack about the other two points, not up to the task? Always with no substance, aren't you."

I believe you are a little inclined to cherry-pick when it comes to replying to posts, dear George!

But, I'm going to 'have a crack' - although it has to be said that I have no military background - which I rather suspect would be necessary to truly know the ins and outs of a situation such as the one you have highlighted.

I haven't had time to really research 'Breaking the Silence' either, but I note with interest that the soldier speaking here wishes to remain anonymous because his actions might lead to charges 'from abroad', whilst another source states that 'Breaking the Silence' is apparently going 'on tour'. I doubt anonymity can be preserved under such circumstances.

The young man in the article says that the operation was to be an arrest but at the last minute the orders were changed. It would also seem that there was some collaboration by two Palestinians (including the target's own uncle!) who were providing intelligence and who were able to see the target with such accuracy that even the amount of coffee in the militant's glass was visible. It further states that the operation was being monitored from a room set up for the purpose and contained "all the big chiefs'. So much attention for a 'nobody'? Seems pretty unlikely to me.

All we can do is speculate as to why this target was of such vital importance. Can we be certain that the change of plan did not arise due to Palestinian intelligence, given that they were monitoring the target with such clarity?

Again, not being a military person myself, I cannot say whether the action described in this article is legal or not. If it isn't, then of course something should have been done. Let me repeat that so that we are clear - if the action was illegal, it should not be supported. Fortunately, the soldier in question has the freedom to speak out. There is, therefore, the reassurance that transparency exists in Israel, which in turn enables potentially illegal actions to be highlighted. This young man is not being muzzled or suppressed; his wish for anonymity appears to stem from fear of sources outside of his own country - not from action within.

Such transparency does not exist for the Palestinian people who, rather than have the freedom to go on tour with their grievances, would be executed - perhaps summarily. Such transparency did not exist in the UK: perhaps you will recall the letter written by Siegfreid Sassoon, entitled, 'A Soldiers Declaration'; an action which resulted in him being declared 'shell shocked' and intimidated with threats of an asylum. Of course, this happened a long time ago and is perhaps not relevant. Still, the question surely remains that none of us know to what extent modern armies supress negative information.

As I don't have a military background, I am not sure how the action described in this article differs from the action we have taken in Iraq where the targeting and 'assassination' of militant leaders is central to some of the operations. In fact, the USA are reported by some sources to have a 'target, track, locate' thermal-type technology for such purposes (whether true or speculative, I do not know). We have, in the past, deliberately targeted and killed numerous militants; as of 2007, the coalition forces had killed 400 militants and 19,000 insurgents. I am therefore unable to assess how, according to the article, the Israeli operation is 'the sort most Western countries regard as a grave breach of international law"

Sadly, most nations involved in war, commit unwholesome acts. We've had some British lads apparently abuse Iraqi prisoners. Morally, such abuse is indefensible; psychologically it seems to me that it is becoming a bit of a phenomenon in guerilla-type warfare. Because the guerillas wear no uniforms, soldiers cannot tell if the person walking towards them is an innocent civilian or a suicide bomber. Tensions run extremely high - as we saw in Vietnam - and normal mental and emotional processes seem greatly affected.

By the by, if you are passionately interested in abuses of Palestinian people, George, might I suggest you research those which occur in Gaza and West Bank at the hands of Fatah and Hamas? Or don't they count as 'murder squads'?

In one incident alone, in 2007, Amnesty reported over 350 Palestinians were killed at the hands of their own leaders. Director, Malcolm Smart said:

"The leaders of both the PA and Hamas must take immediate steps to break the cycle of impunity that continues to fuel abuses, including arbitrary detentions, abductions, torture and ill-treatment by their forces."

Might you also look at the sheer volume of Palestinians ethinically cleansed or killed by their own Arab brothers?:

Kuwait: ethinic cleansing of 400,000 in one day.

Jordan: killing 20,000 in one day

Syria: killing 20,000 in one day

Lebanon; killing thousands in the 80's

There are other statistics whereby ME nations and Russia have slaughtered hundreds of thousands - and do you know what? There were no outcries from the Arab world and no UN outrage. Such is reserved for Israel alone.

George, I note your belief that Melanie should get a Shetland pony so that her fall is cushioned. She does at least have a horse which she rides with purpose. With respect, it seems to me that the title you quote at the foot of your posts - 'The Campaign forhuman rights' is a rather legless animal given that it appears not to move at all but has instead remained in a fixed position; focused on Israel.

I have not seen a single post from you that mentions human rights issues in any other nation of the world - issues where the atrocities and death tolls outweigh Israel by proportions so huge I can't quantify them. You don't comment on posts where these are mentioned - which would surely be relevant to your campaign?

I have not seen you condemn Hamas for their unholy actions in respect of human shields, fighting in civilian areas, deliberately maximising casualties, torture, summary executions - the list goes on.

I have said in this post that if the Israeli actions ARE illegal then they are indefensible. Will you at least grant that the same must be true for Hamas and Fatah?

George, it is my honest belief that you should examine your own motives in respect of Israel. Either that or alter the wording of 'Campaign for Human Rights' to reflect its focus on Israel. As it stands, this title is clearly misleading as it implies that you care about humanity as a whole. Such care for all those suffering around the globe is not evident in your posts.

Carl

Michael B - anything to shift the attention from Israel's atrocities eh? You must be up to Step 4 of the Zionist Apologists Handbook.

It doesn't wash anymore, the world knows the truth about Israeli brutality against Palestinian civilians.

Michael B

No shift whatsoever, Carl. This set of revealing graphs was linked, requesting comment. In response, the only comment you offer is one that shifts attention away from those particularly telling graphs.

Wagner

Penny,
You wonder why George doesn't post about other human rights abuses in the world. What would be the point of posting here about other conflicts. It is after all, a comments blog, a method of replying to what you read. And what does Melanie talk about all the time------Israel! Actually Penny, where are your posts about Darfur and the like-on some other blog where they are talking about this maybe? I'm sure that when Melanie spouts her rabble rousing guff about another conflict, she'll provoke similar reactions, if anybody is still reading.

stanley Jerusalem

Wagner - "I'm sure that when Melanie spouts her rabble rousing guff about another conflict, she'll provoke similar reactions, if anybody is still reading"

A propos criticising Penny Rossini said that Wagner had some brilliant moments but mind-numbingly boring half hours.

Michael B

Wagner,
The reason Melanie Phillips' and likeminded commentary is necessary, and in fact is worthy of being roundly applauded, is due to a wide range of factors, for example as reflected upon here and, more briefly, here. The first link is largely a set of pictorial and video reflections, the latter a brief editorial written by Ishmael Khaldi, "born into a Bedouin tribe in Northern Israel, one of 11 children" who now serves as deputy consul general of Israel in the U.S. There's the previously linked graphical reflections, but all that is but the barest of beginnings as to why Melanie's commentary is worthy of acclaim - and not merely of acceptance or being tolerated.