Liberal derangement

boxermk

The figure the U.S. is pledging to Gaza is $900,000,000, not $900,000.

Wilhelm

''70 states including Europe and Britain swelled that total to more than $4.4 billion to Gaza.''

Throwing money down the toilet, bit like the African aid industry racket.

Original Tony

There is no such thing as a rational liberal...the very word infers 'gay abandon' to do whatever you like! That's why liberals agree to abortion and a hundred other crimes against humanity. This is just another crime against humanity!

In the 1980s, the world rushed to help get Zimbabwe on its feet; the Nordic countries, the USA and Europe pumped in billions of dollars, most of it for repairing infrastructure and building schools and hospitals. What the benevolent world did not realise is that auditors from the USA were shown the same hospital the Norwegians were building, thinking it was their hospital! In the meantime the cost of the other hospital went into Swiss bank accounts to buy arms and luxuries for Mugabe.

Hamas will be no different. The evil spirit that indwells Mugabe indwells Hamas; but the liberls who 'accept anything' will not bat an eyelid when all their donations go into bombs or swiss bank accounts; they wont even ask to see the very goods, services and infrastructure their money is sponsoring!

cuffleyburgers

Dear Ms Phillips

Plse stop using the word liberal when you actually mean pinko-grauniad-reading-islamofascist-appeasing scumbag.

I consider myself a Gladsotnian liberal and resent being painted along with these people.

I am a great fan of America, but their abuse of the word Liberal is extremely annoying.

About the aid to hamas - I fear you are right. Of course we don't expect much from the labour foreign ministers (utter utter vacuous arseholes) but I had hoped that the US would manage better. Clinton (Mr) had a pretty decent record on Palestine.

GaryO

That is over $3,000 per capita!
Wow, waging war is profitable business for some!

The truly sad thing about all this is that none of the countries who pledged billions to Band Aid have yet fulfillied their promise - Why? because those who were going to benefit were poor Africans, not war mongering terrorist thugs.

This is a reward for terror.

Tories and LibDems would have done the same. Our politicians are not accountable to the electorate any more.

What to do?

stanley Jerusalem

Douglas Alexander, Britain’s International Development Secretary, has said:

‘There is a desperate need for tough restrictions on the supply of goods to be relaxed,’ he said. ‘Gaza needs money, fuel and construction materials, and whilst these goods are turned away at the borders, repairs to homes, water systems and the electricity network will remain impossible. Israel must do the right thing and allow much-needed goods to get through to those men, women and children who continue to suffer.’

Doesn't Gaza have a common border with Egypt? Why does this political fool think that only the Israeli borders present difficulties? Egypt no more wishes to give succour to Hamas than Israel does.
Remember Black September, a reminder of the slaughter of tens of thousands of PLO operatives trying very hard to overthrow the Late King Hussein of Jordan, his government and his State.The mantle of Black September is now with Hamas and Hisbullah.

PaulL

What to do? Indeed. How to break the collective psychosis infecting our ruling 'elite'?

How to deal, not with a state with a mafia, but a mafia with a state under the protection of and rebuilt by the psychopaths' friend the UN.

Iran must be laughing their socks off just as their contempt for us grows ever deeper.

Suffolkbor

Why don,t we just send 30 million pounds worth of arms to Hamas and have done with it ?
At least that would cut out the middlemen .
Does anyone think that Hamas and Iran will send us all a Thank You note?

George Laird

Dear All

“There has never been a situation like this. ‘Surreal’, as Daniel Pipes expostulates, just doesn’t begin to describe what America, Britain and Europe are doing in Gaza”.

Surely, giving people hope and opportunity cannot be a bad thing?

“America has pledged $900,000 for the ‘rebuilding’ of Gaza; at the ‘donors’ conference at Sharm el Sheikh yesterday, pledges from more than 70 states including Europe and Britain swelled that total to more than $4.4 billion”.

This rebuilding programme should be conditional on a successful Israeli and Hama peace talks.

“The beleaguered British taxpayer may be rather surprised to know that bankrupt Britain is throwing £30 million at the place”.

Does Melanie forget that the British people are allowing the navy to risk British service personnel on Israel’s behalf?

“These governments all piously intone that the money will not end up in the hands of Hamas. This is utterly absurd. Hamas run Gaza. They control it. Nothing happens there without their say-so. UNRWA, which is apparently supposed to distribute the humanitarian aid, is riddled with Hamas operatives amongst its staff; Hamas won more than 80 percent of the vote in the last election for the UNRWA workers association and the UNRWA teachers association”.

Is Melanie finally cracking and admitting that Hamas has entered the democratic process?

“To avoid the money going to Hamas, we are told with a straight face, aid is to be funnelled through the Palestinian Authority. But the PA are in the West Bank. They are not in Gaza. Hamas run Gaza. The PA have no more power to stop that money from ending up in the pockets of Hamas than they have of flying to the moon”.

Since the PA control the money, they get a big say and they could just sit on it.

“Who can doubt that the $4.4 billion will go straight to Hamas so that it can buy yet more rockets and missiles and construct yet more death-dealing factories to enable them to bombard Israel and kill the innocent?”

I doubt that statement, it is subjective.

“In no other global conflict do the nations of the world throw money at an area waging aggressive war, even while it is still lobbing missiles at its victims”.

1300 Palestinians killed, 13 Israelis, who are the victims exactly?

“According to Israel’s ambassador to the UN, there have been nearly 100 rocket and mortar attacks from the Gaza Strip since the ’ceasefire’ on January 18”.

Why don’t the Israelis ask them to stop it?

“These have been increasing in number, with 12 rockets fired at Sderot on March 1 alone. On Saturday morning, two new and improved Grad rockets, capable of yet greater destruction than before, hit Ashkelon; one hit a school”.

And still the Israelis haven’t sussed that peace talks are the answer.

“And for this Gaza is to be rewarded to the tune of $4.4 billion”.

No, they are not being rewarded; they are being helped, just like Israel is being helped by the British Navy.

“Even the Saudis seem to think this is mad:

Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al Faisal told al Arabiya TV that rebuilding Gaza would be ‘difficult and fool-hardy, so long as peace and security do not prevail’ in the territory”.

Well; he is correct Hamas and the Israelis have to talk peace.

“But of course; Saudi knows full well that what America, Europe, Britain and the rest have just done is hand $4.4 billion to the Iranian war machine against not just Israel but the Sunni Arab world”.

Is that not stretching it a bit, do you think that all the money is going to be handed over at once? Don’t you think people will be monitoring it?

“Now look by contrast at what Douglas Alexander, Britain’s International Development Secretary, has said:

‘There is a desperate need for tough restrictions on the supply of goods to be relaxed,’ he said. ‘Gaza needs money, fuel and construction materials, and whilst these goods are turned away at the borders, repairs to homes, water systems and the electricity network will remain impossible. Israel must do the right thing and allow much-needed goods to get through to those men, women and children who continue to suffer.’

What is wrong with that, even Alexander has managed to say something right,

“No mention of the materials getting through to be appropriated by Hamas in order to kill more Israelis. Alexander’s remarks reflect the collective derangement of Britain’s political class, which frames a genocidal war against Israel as a humanitarian catastrophe for the perpetrators who are said to be starving, even while they fire bigger and better weapons to kill Israelis”.

1300 Palestinians killed, 13 Israelis!

“As a result, Douglas Alexander, Hillary Clinton and the rest of them are effectively giving Hamas $4.4 billion to do just that. Clinton’s own remarks were just pure newspeak”.

She is a politician and wants to be seen to do the right thing.

‘Our response to today's crisis in Gaza cannot be separated from our broader efforts to achieve a comprehensive peace,’ she said. ‘Only by acting now can we turn this crisis into an opportunity that moves us closer to our shared goals.’ She added that ‘by providing humanitarian aid to Gaza, we also aim to foster conditions in which a Palestinian state can be fully realized, a state that is a responsible partner, is at peace with Israel and its Arab neighbors and is accountable to its people.’

In other words; Israel gets the peace and security it wants through a proper government controlled Gaza.

“Her remarks reflect the lethal liberal delusion that the establishment of a Palestinian state would bring peace to the region, and that humanitarian aid is necessary to make that state more possible. No recognition that the Palestinians have received more aid than any other people on earth – and have used it to wage genocidal war, because their grievance is not the absence of a state but the existence of Israel”.

When people are murdered, their families and friends seek revenge, think Munich Melanie!

“Clinton’s delusion is the distillation of the key liberal fallacy that the perfection of the world lies in the application of reason; that people are all innately reasonable, and will always act in furtherance of their own rational self-interest”.

Is Melanie than advocating extermination?

“Seen through this prism, Israel’s destruction of Palestinian infrastructure – indeed, any action it takes to prevent Gazans from murdering Israeli citizens – is frightfully inconsiderate because it mucks up the only real agenda in the Middle East which is to set up a Palestinian state -- not the fact that Israel is under permanent siege from a real agenda of genocide”.

Melanie, it is a funny permanent siege if the Israelis and others in Israel can come and go as they please. In a siege, you are trapped with no exit.

“So Gaza’s donors told themselves this:
A new drive to revive the Middle East peace process is needed because violence could easily erupt again in Gaza, wrecking aid efforts, international donors were told at an aid conference today... ‘We are confronted with a serious dilemma,’ Norwegian Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere told the final news conference. ‘Will we once again reconstruct something we built a few years ago and now has been hammered and flattened?’”

The Palestinians need a future and to see that a future can include peace with all their bneighbours.

“Note – the dilemma is not whether the donors’ money will be used to hammer and flatten Israel; it is only whether Israel will give the donors a poor return for their investment in Gaza, by having the gall to seek to protect its citizens against the violence that the donors’ money will fund”.

If people are putting up money, they want to see a return, what is wrong with that concept? The return isn’t purely bricks and mortar but change of attitude and practices. The return of civil government and elections is the only way forward for the Palestinians.

“As Tony Blair said after a visit to Gaza and Sderot:
‘I wanted to come to hear for myself first-hand from people in Gaza, whose lives have been so badly impacted by the recent conflict. These are the people who need to be the focus of all our efforts for peace and progress from now on.’”

In others words, we need ordinary people to enter the political arena and demand their historic right, to live in peace and bring up their families.

“Note -- the people of southern Israel, who have been living in shelters almost continuously, aren’t the real victims of this conflict. That honour goes to those who have been trying to kill them. It is those people who will now be ‘the focus of all our efforts for peace and progress’. And Blair poses as a friend of Israel”.

It looks like Melanie doesn’t like Blair now either!!!

I would be grateful if she could publish a list of the disloyal so we all know who they are.

“Did I say liberals were rational?”

I thought she was accusing liberal people of being fascists.

Never mind Melanie when Israel goes for peace talks; you can go in the huff and complain bitterly about how they have betrayed your Israel.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Maurice MD

There is a good summary on the website JIHADWATCH that gives the figures for the colossal sums of aid given to the PLO/Fatah/Hamas/Poor Suffering Palestinians/Poor Suffering Arab Refugees for decades past.

And how it was useless and/or misused.

HarleyDavidson

It is the west who is directly responsible for the ongoing conflict in the Middle East/Gaza. It's not like we don't have history on our side to prove my point. During all of the Arab/Israeli wars it was the Soviet Union who poured money and materials into each of the Arabs nations before and after each war.

Result-six wars.

Now its the west doing exactly what the former Soviet Union did in years past consequently the exact same results have been achieved, WAR!

I agree with Cuffleyburgers. These are NO liberals. These are indeed Islamofashists-appeasing scumbag and should be called as such! Islamofashists appeasing scumbags to the core! How could they possibly be anything different? I mean the estimated damage (I have no idea who did the estimate to begin with) was 2.1 billion. These appeasing Islamofashists scumbags are providing 4.4 billion EVEN AS Hamas is firing rockets into Israel. A clear reward of 2.3 billion for attacking Israel!

These are OUR so called leaders here in the west? Then this makes absolute sense why the west is bankrupt. Why the economy gets worse everyday. Why our western citizens are getting laid off everyday and why OUR families are having to do without! Why OUR citizens are NOT as cute and cuddly as those living in Gaza and deserving of financial aide. Why each of OUR nations are going broke! Why OUR tax dollars are being sent to Hamas instead of helping us!

Makes perfect sense to me!

Maurice, MD

One may wonder why The Good People of the World are so infatuated with the Palestinian Cause above and beyond all others.

One can see a news clip of mothers in Africa trudging endless miles carrying their children on their backs trying to find a place where there is some food for them. But one does not then see the governments of many countries rushing to pledge billions of dollars to aid them.

Can it be that the reason for the infatuation with the Palestinians is only that they are something their "suffering" is something that can be used against the Jews?

Indeed, if the "Palestinians" were fighting any other nation but Israel, how much passionate pity and support would they get?

David

"That honour goes to those who have been trying to kill them."

Very, very revealing comment. Melanie sees no difference between the ordinary Palestinian and Hamas.
I'd also note that Melanie, the fearsome critic of moral equivalence, appears not to extend this to other spheres, arguing as she appears to be doing that the destruction and deaths in Gaza are precisely the same thing as suffered by towns like Sderot.

Augustus

To be blunt, all those governments who send aid in whatever form, to Gaza are complicit in crimes against humanity. The ever-present cris de coer that humanitarian help must be sent without question is very noble, and in the case of Gaza this has been done in abundance, but there are limits to everything. If the Palestinians are determined to continue their criminal activities then there should be an end to sending them government aid.

Differences of whatever nature should in practice be ironed out by negotiation, if needs be through an intermediary. But negotiations between Israel and Gaza are impossible simply because there is no mutual respect or meaningful recognition between the parties. Hamas, which is in control of Gaza, desires only the destruction of Israel. As long as they continue to hold that view they can't be considered a meaningful partner to a peace process. The whole conflict is skewed from the start anyway; on the one hand there is a recognition, even by Israel, that Hamas has been elected, and on the other there is international agreement that Hamas is basically nothing more than a terrorist organization. Out of this split-personality characterization a choice has to be made. Hamas' position is not purely incidental, it is structured along criminal lines. All aid siphoned though Hamas, has proved, through a devious ways and means, to be structured to procuring yet more weapons and ammunition. By whatever legitimate means Hamas have been chosen to lead the people of Gaza it doesn't make them any less of a criminal organization. And it is a given fact that Iran is the largest supplier of weapons to Hezbollah and Hamas.

The Palestinian people of Gaza and the West Bank have suffered for decades in misery and underdevelopment. That coupled with the intense hatred of Israel is not the best of circumstances to make progress and to develope a community. They are completely dependent on international aid. A few Palestinians settled in the West and gave their version to the world the Gazans' plight. Because of this various NGOs began to organize aid and at the same time paint Israel as the baddie in the conflict. The truth is different. Whoever looks into the matter more deeply discovers that Israel has done more to come to terms with the Paletinian's demands than could be expected from a nation under such villification.
And despite all that, the left-wing governments of the West still choose the side of the terrorists.

It would be perfectly logical if Israel now chooses to bring the Palestinians to their knees so that they will have to beg to be allowed to stay under Israel's conditions. Of course, they can always leave to another Arabic nation in the Middle East. And as for their 'human rights', these can always be considered once they decide to give up the mass murder of Israeli civilians.

Adam B.

"No recognition that the Palestinians have received more aid than any other people on earth – and have used it to wage genocidal war, because their grievance is not the absence of a state but the existence of Israel."

There, in a nutshell, is the whole problem.

Nannette

Read the following from a journalist in Gaza: Puzzled in Gaza

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1235898327903&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull

"THE GAZA I saw was societally intact. There were no homeless, walking wounded, hungry or underdressed people. The streets were busy, shops were hung with embroidered dresses and gigantic cooking pots, the markets were full of fresh meat and beautiful produce - the red radishes were bigger than grapefruits. Mothers accompanied by a 13-year-old boy told me they were bored of leaving home to sit on rubble all day to tell the press how they'd survived. Women graduates I met in Shijaya spoke of education as power as old men watched over them."

In other words, Gaza has just become another blood libel against the Jews, amongst the many other blood libels over the past centuries.

barackobama

George W Bush supported the establishment of a Palestinian state and was the first president of the US to say so.
Was he a liberal?
Dick Cheney supports the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Is he one too?
It was the policy of the administration of president Bush to support the creation of a Palestinian state based on a roadmap which implied settlements would have to go and Jerusalem would be divided.
It's all terribly confusing.

Louise

Maurice, I believe you have hit the nail squarely on the head!
Today's (London) "Daily Telegraph" has a wimpish editorial about Gaza. It seems to have swallowed the Hamas casualty figures hook, line and sinker, and to be distancing itself perceptively from its former stalwart championship of the imperilled Jewish State.
Oh for those halcyon days when Barbara Amiel, Daniel Johnson, and Mark Steyn were its regular columnists!

Martin

Liberals in the true sense would no more send aid to Hamas than they would to Hitler or Pol Pot.

Melanie you mean "Media Liberals", who are unprincipled self - advertising, superannuated
teenage rebels.

Real Liberals support Israel, not Islamofascism

Michael B

Tragi-comic farce writ large. Yet another profusion of puffery and pride in lieu of any more genuinely conceived and hard won historical advance.

Somebody, somewhere, find something, somebody, to blame, avoiding so much as a glance, much less a steady gaze, into the mirror.

jeremy

If the world would pledge 1/4 to the starving in Africa, this would eradicate starvation, but this is never on the agenda.
But for the Palestinians who brought the destruction on themselves, the hand out is unlimited

phil

There is a simple solution to this ,much as I do not want to see the innocents deprived ,they themselves must make some effort to vote in a government that actually cares for them and until they have one that does not continue its rocket barrage we should not pay them one penny -a total blockade .let Israel open up its hospitals and child care facilities to the Palestinians and provide food at the borders so that no,one starves -These people need peace more ,even than Israel ,and hamas has brought them only misery .The aid is being used to fuel this war and it will be endless until the west says enough is enough -some hopes !

Ros Morris

@Maurice, MD. 'Indeed if the "Palestinians" were fighting any other nation but Israel, how much passionate pity and support would they get?" Here you have it in a nutshell.

By aiding and, therefore, arming Hamas, the world is complicit in the desire to anihilate Israel. Is this a conscious desire or something that resides in the collective DNA of the so-called 'leaders' of those nations who are willing to print money in order to demonstrate their visceral hatred of the Jews and the Jewish state?

One can only hope that, having made a promise to deliver these funds, that they too, like the Band Aid millions, get caught up in bureaucracy and never find their way to the sticky fingers of Hamas.

itlog95

cufleyburgers, even the 'liberals' don't like the designation anymore because the word has become a pejorative. They now call themselves 'progressives'. I like O'Reilly's term for them - 'secular progressives', which is rapidly becoming a pejorative as well.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Suffolkbor, you would not get thank you note, let's not be naive
Thank you!

Henry

So my taxes are now indirectly paying to bomb the people of Sderot.

Surmise

I am not sure this has anything to do with right or wrong. I think Britain and Europea are prepared to appease militant Islam in the short term, regardless of the consequences for Israel, in the hope that it will facilitate victory in the long term.

They are prepared to lose a battle in order to win a war.

Andras

Can anyone tell, how much money had been transferred to Georgia following the Russian onslaught on that country last August, and by whom?

I am most curious.

There will be conclusions to be drawn from the answer whatever it will be.

blue_&_white_avenger

I recently read a perceptive article by Gunnar Heinsohn forom the Wall St Journal: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123171179743471961.html
entitled "Ending the West's Proxy War Against Israel ". That was written before this recent meeting pledging $4.4B to Gaza.
It's thesis is that the West has been ploughing money into UNWRA so that Gaza's inhabitants are supported without having anything to do. This enables each Arab mother to have on average six children - resulting in a "youth bulge" some four times that of the US or seven times the UK. As in other Arab states e.g. Lebanon, Algeria, such youth having nothing better to do fights - except that in Lebanon when this happened in the Civil War of 1975-90, 150,000 died and in Algeria, 1999-2006, 200,000 died. So 1300 is no big deal - but of course if Israel's involved then that must be criminal. Now if the West were to stop funding UNWRA and encouraged the population to do something useful rather than lapping up handouts, then & only then will the situation improve. In other words, this benificence is actually exacerbating the situation not improving it.
And, BTW, the sooner UNWRA is dismantled and replaced with the UNHCR there, also the better

Cam

Just who is pulling the strings behind the West draining its coffers? Perhaps they can't destroy us fast enough? As if the recession didn't exist already.

Wagner

Was that an attempt at compassion while trying to look tough, Phil? You might as well return to the dead-end no-hope hard line of your compadres. So the plan is:
Deprive the Gazans of everything but food-until they vote for...Fatah. Maybe Kadima could field some candidates.

Hamas clearly provoked the invasion so that they would get handouts with which to rebuild the buildings that were destroyed and have plenty of dead babies to show to the media and its not Israel's fault for obliging them. Israel is just a big dumb unstoppable force of nature with no self-control, like a tsunami.

Wilhelm

Jeremy says

''If the world would pledge 1/4 to the starving in Africa, this would eradicate starvation.''

Nah son, the Africans would just spend it on Mercedes Benz cars, ever heard of the Wabenzi tribe ?

Sam Armstrong

To think that as a UK taxpayer I will have to toil to pay for a small percentage of this money that's going to nourish Islamic terrorism, and that each day I board the Tube to go and toil for this money I am also wondering if the train will be blown up by followers of the very ideology I am funding! How messed up can you get? I never thought of myself as dhimmi til, like, I read this article.

Raymond in DC

Folks, it's actually worse - and more surreal - than first appears. The latest figure is closer to $5.5 Billion when one adds earlier - but as yet unfulfilled - pledges from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states. That indeed comes to some $4,000 for every man, woman, and child in Gaza. (Israel, of course, gets nothing despite suffering 8 years of rocket and mortar assaults from Gaza.) Remind me again how much these nations have given to those suffering in Darfur, Congo or Zimbabwe...

Such generosity is quite curious, since only weeks ago the UN estimated that total damaged amounted to roughly TWO billion dollars.

Why is it so hard for these people to realize that by making aggression and terror cost-free, indeed making it pay, they are only acting as enablers? These donor conferences are like an "intervention" where people take pity on their drug using friend, urge him to turn his life around, but chip in so he can afford his next fix.

Bill M

You are now watching America head down the toilet faster than the UK.

Herbert Thornton

Ros Morris,

You say "By aiding and, therefore, arming Hamas, the world is complicit in the desire to annihilate Israel."

True, but I believe that you understate it. The arming of Hamas is symptomatic not just of the desire to see Israel annihilated, but of the west's insane urge to abandon it's own finest values, and prostrate itself before Islam in abject surrender - to achieve the suicide of western civilisation. Western populations have become like Lemmings, rushing voluntarily towards their own destruction - while trying to push the Jews over the cliffs first.

Lee Jakeman

"Israel must do the right thing and allow much-needed goods to get through to those men, women and children who continue to suffer." No mention of Gaza's border with Egypt, through which aid could be easily delivered. Palestinians obviously prefer to get their supplies from the hated Jewish enemy than from their Arab "brothers".

John M

Distributing such large sums of money to the Palestinians to promote peace is like trying to put out a fire by dousing it with kerosene, as an sensible person would know. Obviously promoting peace in Gaza is not the aim here.

I completely agree with cuflyburgers on terminology. The socialists in America who call themselves liberals are obviously not liberals in the classical sense and not as the term was once used in the US. This is just Orwellian newspeak to call something the opposite of what it truly is. The same applies to the rejuvenated term progressive. To use the words liberal or progressive in this way is a corruption of language, and I wish it would stop. But whatever the current term, it will in time become a pejorative slur, which is why they must keep switching every so often.

TW

4.4 billion could resettle every last person from Gaza.

Shiva

The same kind of mad thinking is happening regarding other Jehadi hot spots like Pakistan where the USA is again throwing billions in response to the latest terror attack on the SriLankan cricket team.. All this just boggles the mind...WHY REWARD TERROR WITH MONEY???

Terry

This has all been played out before - except the money went to hamas mark 1 aka arafart (his Swiss bank account, more precisely).

Most of the money won't be given anyway. Pledges are only pedges, not cheques. They will not see the light of day. And mercifully so.

And the money that is given will go to hamassholes. The donors might just well flush it down their toilets for the good it will do. Why not ask where the gaza greenhouse industry went after it was donated to these savages in return for zilch!? Oh the poor old pretend palis wrecked it as soon as gaza was Judenrein!! So now let them rebuild it themselves, because free gifts shouldn't be given more than once.

Garry

Better send more children to Gaza, they must need fresh shields for the on-going conflict.

Archie

Am I mistaken in believing that during the recent bit of street theatre, Hamas had rejected outright the 'two-state solution" so beloved of "progressives" and presumably the raison d'etre of all this largesse? Good money after bad, just like Africa. I particularly like the story of the agricultural facility, greenhouses, etc., turned over to the Palestinians by a rich Jew, which they promptly wrecked. So much for "hope and opportunity"!
Another point: I don't see or hear of other Arab countries rushing to throw money at Hamas, just as they seemed reluctant to come to their aid during recent events.

Mustapha Bunn

George Laird.....a long thoughtful reply to Mels article.
Could you now give us all your thoughts on the discovery,by Egyptian officials,of 400 Kgs. of explosives,in Egypt, awaiting transportation into Gaza....for peaceful purposes of course.

bmc3186

2 points. 1 = I agree with those saying Melanie needs to learn the meaning of the word liberal. She may share some of the absurd opinions of the radical American right, but I'd hoped she still understood that true 'liberals' tend to vote Tory.

2 = I wonder if Melanie thinks theres a single deserving Palestinians. If the media (as she claims) make them all out to be innocent victims, Melanie intimates every single one is a Hamas terrorist. Not a very persuasive argument.

richard scorner

with regard to the accurate meaning of words such as liberal, I propose the term "deviant cultural revisionism" as a substitute for "political correctness" any suggestions ?

James Christie

Hillary Clinton has proven to be a liar, what else should we expect. It's all sick.

Daniela from Haifa

TERRORISTS ATTACK ISRAEL.
THE WORLD IS SUPPORTING THIS TERRORISTS.

WHAT IS SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND???

phil

georgie boy -some years ago a famous comedian was approached by a customer at batley variety club and asked "can tha tek constructive criticism lad " --ay he replied --"ok then ,tha were crap"-your filibusters are not only boring they bring to mind the customers criticism -is it impossible for you to ever write some sense and concisely too-

Carl

Nanette - your "journalist" lied for Israel.She is nothing more than another propagandist.

Richard Sicree

I'd have thought the Palestinians of Gaza are about as deserving of our sympathy as the Nazis who died in Dresden, Hamburg etc; the equivalent of the dead Hamas supporters in Gaza. You vote for Nazis/Hamas, you get your just deserts. My vote in 1943/4 would have been with Bomber Harris. A lot of pain would have been prevented if someone had flattened Nuremberg during their rallies pre-war, and 110,000 dead Nazis would have been a solid plus. similarly for Hamas supporters.

Mark

The Seth Freedman article linked below contains an interesting counterpoint to some of the prevailing views expressed here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/03/israel-judaism

Grahame P

@ David. You said "...Melanie sees no difference between the ordinary Palestinian and Hamas."

I'd remind you the ordinary people voted Hamas into power. Faced with the democratic Gazan peoples' choice of a Jew hating corrupt terrorist organisation for a government, I'm amazed Israel even provides electric power, healthcare and aid to those who only return racial and religious hatred to them - along with the rockets.

That's who the Gazans voted in David. And while we prop up the Palestinians with aid, we insulate the people from the consequences of their choices. Making conflict affordable for Gazans, at the same time as shovelling billions onto this corrupt shower, will do nothing other than build yet another barrier, this time financially incentivised, to a peace settlement.

The Palestinians have made their own bed and as far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter how uncomfortable they subsequently find it to sleep in, there are many more deserving causes for largesse. Few of these though have the advantage of indulging in a little associated resentment of Jews (or Israel as some would have it) so simply don't get the attention – or the money.

How much cash or effort are we expending in Darfur for example? Hundreds of thousands of people, mostly women and children, being raped, mutilated and murdered because of their ethnicity, while we potentially pour billions into the hands of Palestinian terrorists voted in by their own electorate? If this is the charity of the new uber-liberal, then it has a perverted racial tinge to it.

Linda Smith

sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. How come you believe all the propaganda you regurgitate here?

Linda Smith

Richard Sicree: You may be interested to read my current debate with Richard Pearce re Japan on another thread, Israel's Choice. Richard Pearce thinks we should die to save the enemy! He also spouts idealist guff that people can defend themselves against evil vicious fascists with talk and prayers. The free world will be destroyed by idealists like him.

EDDIE

lawyer had very short a letter published in today’s ‘’The Times”, A ONCE FAMOUS PAPER OF THE BRITISH Empire.
Sir,
Where does the conversation start with a peace partner who says?
“ I have one requirement only; that you cease to exist”?
I bring this up because it was also announced today that 72 countries across the world headed by the USA are to pledge 4.2 billion dollars to rebuild Gaza. Not Darfur, Not Nigeria, not Zimbabwe, not just about anywhere in the world where today people are dying in their thousands.
The consequences are two fold.
Firstly, their offer is for Hamas a tangible proof of the rightness of their cause.
Secondly, they must know, unless world governments are terminally naïve that some if not all of the money will go into weaponry or secret accounts.
They know that they have taken refugees and over 60 years, institutionalised them into a dependency culture that makes it impossible for them to do anything more that breed and hate. That was not naïve, it was deliberate. Now they must face a hugely destabilised Middle east.
These goodly governments want to open up the border controls around Gaza to allow food and building cement to enter Gaza freely. Cement to build tunnels and freedom of passage for killers to go about their blood soaked business.
This whole scenario, this completed denial of logical truth can only mean that they think Israel is a superfluous entity to be removed in the interest of good relations with those who control the Muslim world. Historically, it was the payment of money that was used to stave of the threat of attack; now it is through sacrificing small states, just as we did with Czechoslovakia in 1938.
But if Iran starts atomic warfare, it will not remain confined to that area, rest assured.

Janet

Phil's response to George Laird has me in stitches, I can't stop laughing...great Phil, however, without George's intelligent incite we wouldn't be able to have such a good laugh... His bit about Israel
telling Hamas to stop firing rockets...where the hell does he think he is.. in the kindergarten..maybe Hamas should get a slap on the hand if they don't stop.. For goodness sake..get it into your head's Hamas are barbaric terrorists, out to destroy any chance of peace and quiet.. a two state solution is ridiculous.. as far as Hamas are concerned it would be a means to an end and we all know whose end that is.....

Terry

Obama's "reaching out to the muslim world" in reality is hand outs to islamo-fascist terrorists. Imagine that! Liberals cannot possibly see the distinction, causes, effects or consequences. History will show 'global warming' should be the least of our concerns when liberals all over the planet are systematically destroying man's best hope, freedom, and the nations that built upon it.

Linda Smith

Dear all,

Please recover composure. Just noticed my post today at 1:43 omits CARL's name. It should have read:

CARL: what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. How come you believe all the propaganda you regurgite here.

Yours sincerely
Linda Smith
Campaign against Bigots

Original Tony

GEORGE LAIRD...I just can't believe what you have written in one of your paragraphs: "when people are murdered their families seek revenge, think Munich Melanie"

For a split second I thought you were supporting Israels desire for revenge over the deaths of their people, but knowing you as I do you are in effect saying that Hamas' rockets are a revenge for Palestinians being murdered!

The only murder that took place was the innocent Israelis that took hits from Hamas rockets. It was Israel who had the right for revenge and they did NOT murder Palestinians in the process of that revenge; they killed combatants and the civilians were collaterol, like in any war.

Furthermore, how can you compare this with Muncih when it was once again terrorists that did the murdering of Jews, which then entitled THEM to act in revenge, not the terrorists!! You are twisted Mr Laird!

Your other paragraph of suggesting that Israel asks Hamas to stop rocketing them is just pathetic and is a reflection of your lack of maturity in your posts.

George Laird

Dear Phil

''is it impossible for you to ever write some sense and concisely too .''

No !

Yours Sincerely

George Laird

The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

simon

The truth is that we did well in Gaza - we gave Hamas a bloody nose, and its supporters across all spectrum of society.

Palestinians are ALL complicit in the suicide bomb culture that poses an existential threat to all Israelis and Jews worldwide.

We should get back in to Gaza and finish what we started before this money is allowed to rebuild this morally bankrupt society.

stanley Jerusalem

Dear Phil

''is it impossible for you to ever write some sense and concisely too .''

No !

Yours Sincerely

George Laird

The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University"

Phil do you remember when we were kids taking a number at random out of the telephone directory and informing the poor thing at the other end that either [a] they had won 5 free lessons at the Arthur Murray School of Dancing or [b] That the GPO was checking the activities of a number of dishonest engineers so would they please measure the length of their receiver chord and if it was longer than 16" [which it always was] thay should cut 6" off and return it to the nearest Telephone Exchange or Post Office.
Well I feel that responding to The Laird of Glasgow is a bit like trying to reply coherently to one of those calls. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't.Best thing is to say thank you and hang up after asking them to hold on while you finish your homework, have supper and walk the dog.
His contribution is marginally less entertaining then Cute Carlikins and Drek Blades as sweetie has so aptly renamed him.

Carl

Linda Smith. Thank you, please be assured that I will continue to campaign against people like you.

George Laird

Dear "George Laird"/ Stalker

I see that you have made me offically famous today.

"George Laird" on March 4th, 2009 3:19pm wrote;

"Dear Phil
''is it impossible for you to ever write some sense and concisely too .''
No !
Yours Sincerely
George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University"

Stealing someone identity for the purposes of fraudulent misrepresentation is a crime.

Luckily the Spectator will have logged your IP address so they can track you.

I guess this means that by pretending to be me you are acknowledging that you are a loser to yourself and the rest of the board.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

orionman123

The Western World's continueing head in the sand appeasement of the Global Islamofascist menace, will for a certainty result in dire and grim consequences in the near future.
The realist among us can only hope that eventually common sense,reason and logic will eventually prevail before it is too late to take decisive and preemptive remedial action to safeguard the future for ourselves and our children and grandchildren.

stanley Jerusalem

See what I mean?
Net sum of additional
knowledge = 0

Alex

You are stuck with the Obama administration. There is no point throwing your toys out of the pram.

phil

George Laird
March 4th, 2009 3:19pm

Dear Phil

''is it impossible for you to ever write some sense and concisely too .''

No !

Yours Sincerely

George Laird

The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University-------------------------

GEORGIE I knew you would come good in the end at last you have spoken the truth and I must applaud you for that -hope you will keep it up -we wait with baited breath -you have routed the bookies and astounded the posters -a gezunt on your pipick (an old Jewish blessing)-assuming you have one ,being politically correct of course -signed phil the campaign for ----well you know by now

phil

Carl
March 4th, 2009 3:47pm

Linda Smith. Thank you, please be assured that I will continue to campaign against people like you.

Not only Linda will be shaking in her shoes .we all are jonesey boy .Take a leaf from the lairds book -he admits he does not write the truth -it will be good for your soul and it certainly needs some help -gosh I am busy here with you two but I like a laugh sometimes .

phil the campaign to bring truth and clarity to carl jones

phil

stanley Jerusalem didnt know that game but we would send the less gifted on initiative tests to buy a glass hammer -I bet our boy would find one too

phil

Janet if you want a good laugh have a look at the liberal fascism thread towards the end :)-we need one sometimes don.t we ?-sorry I dont have an apostrophe button on my foreign keyboard ?

Raymond Joseph Douglas

I resent a single penny of my devalued, taxed to the hilt income, going to these aid junkies in Gaza ! Not only this, but due to the rockets STILL flying out of Gaza , there is every chance that my hard earned taxes will be blown to smithereens once again ! Still, given the record of labour over the last ten years, pouring yet more of our taxes into the sand is par for the course for Gordy and co !

stanley Jerusalem

phil - Let us not forget:-

[1] A Left-handed Hammer
[2] A Long Rest
[3] A Pint of Pigeon's Milk

BTW - Which Georgie has the Toni Perm?

bmc3186

Richard Sicree,

My grandparents were in Dresden, they were refugees at the time who had shown as much 'support' for the Nazis as Melanie might show for Hamas.

Nor did any of the German people 'vote' the Nazis into power. In the last elections held (more than a decade before Dresden) the Nazis still won only a minority of the vote.

So try delving into history before you make grossly offensive comments.

phil

stanley Jerusalem sorry I forgot the pint of pigeons milk-honestly we did this to a naive pal once and he went !we also told him he had been called up and had to report to an address with both those articles at 12 midnight -we were a load of young cackers then and probably not much has changed

phil

George Laird
March 4th, 2009 3:55pm -georgie does that mean that I blessed your pipick in vain -it wasnt you ? I withdraw the blessing unreservedly -it will have to look after itself .what a disappointment !!

George Laird

Dear Phil

That was my evil twin brother.

Yours Sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Mark

bmc3186 - I'm grateful that you pulled Richard Sicree up for his deeply offensive post. It seems a kind of shame that no-one else here has seen fit to.

Dave M

"To think that as a UK taxpayer I will have to toil to pay for a small percentage of this money that's going to nourish Islamic terrorism.."

I seem to recall Gazans firing guns in the air not too long ago and shouting out dire warnings against Denmark and any other country that didn't censor the press. That took place during the cartoon crisis.
Personally I wonder why Israel should tolerate all of this stupidity and perhaps make it clear the west should choose whose side they're on. I mean, would the U.S. take kindly to Israel giving money to criminal gangs in South America?
The problem here is simple: If Europe and the U.S. don't lay down the line to the Palestinians they'll get no more money in future (if they don't give up terrorism), we'll be going around in circles. The Palestinians view all of this as sympathy for their cause and, of course, they'll rearm as in the past. Unless Sharon has something to say about it and let's hope he does.

phil

George Laird
March 4th, 2009 7:15pm

Dear Phil

That was my evil twin brother.

Yours Sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University--------------

identical georgie?

Margaret

Rebuilding Gaza with money that none of these countries has -- certainly we in the US don't as our savings have disappeared in the tanking stock market.

Why are we rebuilding what the Palestinians destroyed when they took over?

Utter madness. I can only hope that the daft Obama voters begin to say, "What?" Most of them don't pay attention to the news or make the necessary connections to realize the disaster this administration is.

Every Wednesday the Obamas have their supporters over to the White House to party-hearty on the taxpayer dollar.
Their goal was to destroy the US economy and they are partying while the country burns.

All of this could be divined from his associates, his skimpy voting record, and his background and writings. Melanie knew what kind of leadership he would be bringing and warned the world.

I took part in the "Tea Parties" last Friday -- organized on the fly -- the next set will be better organized and with more angry citizens. Time to sharpen our pitchforks?

Tom the Redhunter

Melanie, once again you hit it out of the park.

bmc3186 - that plurality did, though, vote for the Nazis. Further, the mass of Germans did support them once Hitler's economic program improved their standard of living. There was no resistance to Hitler. Therefore, the German people do bear responsibility.

Ditto for the Gazans.

Bill M

Melanie,

You forgot to mention the $23 million that Obama, by Executive Order in January, approved for Gaza “refugees” to resettle in the U.S. with free food and housing. At a minimum, this is hundreds of thousands of Hamas supporters and Hamas terrorists being welcomed by our traitorous president to begin pumping out radical offspring destined for publicly supported madrassas (here, better known as Charter Schools). No one covered this as it was slid trough by the slimy hands of our Executive Branch.

I work my tail off to pay federal taxes and I want my money back!

Did anyone ever see Trading Places? We now have Billy Ray Obama. Who put the coals out on my flo’?

Mr Melrose

Simon 4th March 3.36

Palestinians are ALL complicit in the suicide bomb culture that poses an existential threat to all Israelis and Jews worldwide.

We should get back in to Gaza and finish what we started..

Could you please confirm what you mean by 'ALL' and 'FINISH' and what you would consider to be a would be a satisfactory result?

Say what you mean Si!

phil

Mr Melrose -simon seems to be our equivalent of carl ,george ,derek .mark etc -he is a passionate young man but represents 0 percent of Jewish thought ,where do you stand -not with simon obviously ,but with those mentioned, or the moral majority ?

Original Tony

Carl 11:16 am...why is it that the journalists reporting from Gaza that YOU choose to listen to are okay and informative but Nanettes's journalist, who told a diferent story from Gaza, is a liar!! What a hypocrite you are!

Furthermore, when footage came out from Al-Jazeera (nee BBC)didn't you notice the market stalls BULGING with food and goods DURING the daily 3-hour reprieve in operation Cast Lead. If you dont believe me, go to the film archives and see for yourself!!

RWB

I am a Zionist. But I can't help but feel desperately sorry for the Palestinians who have been betrayed by everyone who has ever led them. And by the West who indulged Arafat as they now indulge Fatah and Hamas. One day, the Palestinians will get a leader who, if he is not killed first, might not look upon his own people as victims but will instead 'do a Sadat'. Until then, the outlook is hopeless.(Remember that Fatah also wants to destroy Israel, they are just prepared to play a long game).

That said, I can't help but think that Israel got Cast Lead wrong. Just as Hitler didn't break Londoners in WW2 there is no way that Israel could break Hamas with bombs. Indeed, they welcome them. They should have gone for the tunnels and destroyed all of them. They should have made it impossible for them to be re-dug. My understanding is that this did not happen and I simply don't understand why.

Carl

Original Tony - don't forget that Israel would not allow journalists into Gaza during their latest aggression - they knew that world opinion would turn against them even sooner than it did.

Thanks to a few brave people, the whole world is now aware of just what a brutal oppressor Israel is.

It is frankly insulting for some airhead British "Poet" to add her halfpenny worth of pro Israel propaganda - she should hang her head in shame or publicly apologise.

Adam B.

There you are again Carl, speaking for the "whole world." You really have an inflated sense of yourself.

Why couldn't journalists go to Gaza through Egypt dearest carl?

And do you condemn the Hamas charter, which calls for the extermination of the Jews? Still mulling it over?

Ymarsakar

Thanks to a few brave people, the whole world is now aware of just what a brutal oppressor Israel is.

The only brave people are the ones helping to fight dictators and terrorists in Iraq and other parts of the world. They solve problems of pollution, lack of security, and economic turbulence while people like you, Carl, get to sit back and sabotage all of our works.

Ymarsakar

Btw, Chris here from TFT provides a very nice summary argument for the whole "violent conflict" gig.

Link

Some people believe violence can be solved or stopped if they sit around and play make believe: turning the other cheek, letting them ethnically cleanse you, etc.

In reality, of course, there are some things that don't change. Things you must know, and which Carl doesn't know, precisely because there are forces in this world that try very hard to keep you ignorant so that they can keep slaughtering and looting.

Don't be a dupe. Get educated.

Dave M

This is an ongoing problem the root cause of which lies in American and European defeatism and lack of moral backbone. Palestinian terrorists should have been left in little doubt they would get no support from the U.N. or anywhere else unless they abandoned terrorism totally. They should also have been made to accept an international force of U.N. peacekeepers in order to prevent any more rocket fire. Europe is kidding itself if it believes humouring terrorism and trying to appease it will bring about peace. They have to stamp out the message terrorism is unacceptable and those states who breed it will be isolated totally. You see India setting a far better example. This is why the BBC behaves with such stupidity as they know only too well how India would react if rockets were fired into their towns and cities.

phil

Carl indulge us son -do you think if you keep repeating your lies that someone will believe you -you are in the wrong place .you need to go where there are these brave people you talk about -you know the ones that blow up innocents on the buses ,use car bombs to kill children ,run around our capital in hordes with Islamist placards for a bit of free fun .whatever the sickness is that inhabits your mind carl ,it is a very unusual one that seems to like being humiliated every day -it even has a catching element as we seem to enjoy doing it to you so hope you keep writing .,dont be shy

Masood

Let the writer of this column come face to face with George Galloway. He will knock real sense into his flawed head.