The Protocols of the Drinkers of Coffee

Vision Aforethought

You should see what they say about Mickey Mouse and Tom and Jerry! Sadly, as per a specific play by a certain Mr. William S., if the masses lend their ears, the masses shall easily be swayed. And the more our current gov dumbs down the population (with the help of the media), things will only get worse as your average Brit laps this all up. Don't think it will happen? Read on...

In the last year - and this is rather worrying - I have had anglo saxon 'friends' and/or their partners actually shout at me about these issues (unprovoked) as if I'm part of all this or would know about it. My response was that I had no idea what they were talking about having been bought up and been educated in the same country as them and pretty much adhering to the same values. My 'friends' seem to think that Jews conspire amongst themselves! (Huh!?) They acted as if I was telling porkies.

As it is, blogs like this and some YouTube videos of Mulas preaching their lies is the first I learned of such things, and if it was not for the danger it poses us all, it would be funny. (As it happens, Jews do run a number of companies, but then that's because they work hard and like to be industrious, not a bad thing.) Me smells envy.

What were the seven deadly since again?

Jacob

"As anyone can see, however, the female figure in the Starbucks logo (pictured above) has two fish tails. This is a clue that she is not Esther, queen of the Jews in Persia. She is instead a twin-tailed siren of Greek mythology. This is because the company is apparently named in part after Starbuck, Captain Ahab’s first mate in the book Moby Dick."

These Jew hating Sheiks have never allowed such a thing as facts get in the way of any hateful conspiracy theory.

What is funnier about these anti Starbucks tirade is that the cofee shop was never a hit in Israel. This is because Israel has its own coffee shops and Starbucks was just one more among many.

Verity

It just goes to show you can't be too careful!

TW

"What we are up against within the Islamic world is quite simply" a Satanic deception.

I recently listened to Walid Shoebat who was a Palestinian terrorist who became a Christian and has a few videos on the web.

He said that he did not know what reasoning was until he became a Christian.

DOV KORET

Your ChoiCe
GENESIS 16:12
"He will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone's hand will be against him; And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren and will live to the east of all his brothers."

GOD'S WORDŽ Translation (©1995)
He will be as free and wild as an untamed donkey. He will fight with everyone, and everyone will fight with him. He will have conflicts with all his relatives."

King James Bible
And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

American King James Version
And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brothers.

American Standard Version
And he shall be as a wild ass among men; his hand'shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his brethren.

Bible in Basic English
And he will be like a mountain ass among men; his hand will be against every man and every man's hand against him, and he will keep his place against all his brothers.

Douay-Rheims Bible
He shall be a wild man: his hand will be against all men, and all men's hands against him: and he shall pitch his tents over against all his brethren.

Darby Bible Translation
And he will be a wild-ass of a man, his hand against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell before the face of all his brethren.

English Revised Version
And he shall be as a wild-ass among men; his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Webster's Bible Translation
And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

World English Bible
He will be like a wild donkey among men. His hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him. He will live opposite all of his brothers."

Young's Literal Translation
and he is a wild-ass man, his hand against every one, and every one's hand against him -- and before the face of all his brethren he dwelleth.'

Geneva Study Bible
And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
(f) That is, the Ishmaelites will be a separate people by themselves and not part of another people.

Wesley's Notes
16:12 He will be a wild man - A wild ass of a man, so the word is: rude, and bold and fearing no man; untamed, untractable, living at large, and impatient of service and restraint. His hand will be against every man - That is his sin, and every man's hand against him - That is his punishment. Note, Those that have turbulent spirits have commonly troublesome lives: they that are provoking, and injurious to others, must expect to be repaid in their own coin. And yet, he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren - Though threatened and insulted by all his neighbours, yet he shall keep his ground, and, for Abram's sake more than his own, shall be able to make his part good with them. Accordingly we read, Gen 25:18, that he died, as he lived, in the presence of all his brethren.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
12. he will be a wild man-literally, "a wild ass man," expressing how the wildness of Ishmael and his descendants resembles that of the wild ass.
his hand will be against every man-descriptive of the rude, turbulent, and plundering character of the Arabs.
dwell in the presence of all his brethren-dwell, that is, pitch tents; and the meaning is that they maintain their independence in spite of all attempts to extirpate or subdue them.

Jason from AZ

Well, no one ever accused these people of being mental giants - so they are prone to such ridulous beliefs (not to mention violence).

These are the same people who believe Jews use the blood of Muslim children to make Matzoh on Passover, Jews started the HIV/AIDS epidemic, Jews are responsible for 9/11, Jewish physicians steal the organs of Arabs for transplants, Jews are responsible the slaughter in Darfur, Jews are responsible for the recent economic meltdown....need I go on.

Question: Since its inception, how many Nobel prizes for science and medicine have gone to someone from the Islamic Middle East? Answer: 0

gary ashton

ha! great post today melanie, i'm not sure who's more pathetic, those that sprout such nonsense or those that believe it.

joe

According to research Ashkenazi Jews have an IQ 15 points higher than average. According to the Muslims Jews control the world. How come they're doing such a terrible job of it!

Brian

I wholeheartedly agree that this is racist madness.

However, "What we are up against within the Islamic world is quite simply a wholesale negation of reason" is misleading. Believe it or not, these crazy clerics are in a minority - yet you suggest they represent Islamic opinion, which is incorrect.

Frankie

Welcome back, Verity - you've been missed!

Neil

What are grown men and women doing in Starbucks anyway? It supplies sugary, lukewarm 'coffee' milkshakes that could only appeal to an American palette.

Lizzy

"What we are up against within the Islamic world is quite simply a wholesale negation of reason; nothing less."

I agree, Melanie. (You can't negotiate with them, Mr Obama.) How do you tolerate such intolerance? Where do we go from here?

phil

well who cares ,he didnt find out that the pig is a Levy and all prawns are Cohenim I know where there is a first edition of the protocols of zion bound in pigskin and never been read -if this guy wants it he can ring the rabbonim taxi company and come round on shabbat to a secret address which can be found only by infidels and in a taxi driven by the chief rabbi at eleven oclock any saturday .Priced at chai cak mit sibbilies its a real bargain .

alanadale

I thought Starbucks attracts opprobrium because it has branches in illegal West Bank settlements.

Oliwagino Alefava Yihiri

That logo is Esther? the Jewish queen? the woman in the crown is Esther? oh yeah, stupid Egyptian fanatic clerics from the dark ages, the Logo is a picture from the Internet, or just a beautiful woman from Seattle, Washington or maybe queen Elizabeth when she was young, when that cafe was opened Howard I forget his last name the first man who open this business was never thinking about Esther he should of, okay let them boycott the coffee shop the people who will suffer the most will be the muslim people who work in those places

and by the way if those fanatics don't like Jewish people, the Jewish people should not like them either, it takes two to not like each other

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Melanie, this is not a joke, the way this muslim clerics are thinking is just, I don't know what to say...
Loco!

Straydingo

Brian,

The problem is that they are not a minority - a lot of the extreme views that MP references in such posts can be easily uncovered by you and I through the simple process of researching the backgrounds of some of these so called moderate leaders of the Muslim world.

What one quickly starts to see is a very dark underbelly that has and is being allowed to develop in the West and is not being challenged by the so called Moderates.

wrong symbol

No - the figure in the Starbuck's logo is a Northern figure called Melusine. She is a sorceres friend of Merlin.

Mr R

It's very easy to laugh at this kind of inanity (and insanity) that Melanie describes. But when people are raised on hatred, and these beliefs are supplied together with mother's milk, it is very dangerous indeed.

Suffolkbor

Perhaps I should loan these clerics some one of my Rupert Bear annuals and see what they would make of the characters in it .
With such well known Jewish Zionist figures as Bill Badger ,Podgy Pig ,Edward Elephant and PC Growler as well as Rupert himself they would have a field day .

The really disturbing aspect of all of this is not that pyschotics like aforementioned clerics voice this kind of verbal diarrhoea but that otherwise rational people actually believe it .

Linda Smith

Islamic clerics openly incite Jew hatred as religious duty in member States of the UN.

"... in 1981, the Iranian representative to the United Nations, Said Rajaie-Khorassani, articulated the position of his country regarding the Universal Declaration of Human Rights by saying that the UDHR was "a secular understanding of the Judao-Christian tradition", which could not be implemented by Muslims without trespassing the Islamic law." (Wikipedia)

It is irrational that Islamic States who do not subscribe to the principles underpinning the notion of universal "Human Rights" should sit on the UN Human Rights Council whose purpose as defined on its own website is "addressing situations of human rights violations and makimg recommendations on them.".

To paraphrase Ms Phillips's last sentence:

What we are up against within the UN is quite simply a wholesale negation of reason; nothing less.

MD

Straydingo thinks that such views are representative of the majority of Muslims. Brian thinks they aren’t.
We’re all lost unless we can believe that other people, left to their own devices, prefer to live sensible lives, free of conflict, too.
It doesn’t always happen though. When one is subject to mental and physical coercion, as supremacist movements such as Nazism and Communism have shown, having been grabbed by the balls, people’s hearts and minds tend to follow.
So the issue isn’t one of majorities or minorities. It’s one of the good and the evil in a doctrine and how it is applied. That’s what differentiates Geert Wilders from the BNP. He draws attention to a message and its demonstrable consequences, giving us necessary food for thought. They emphasise social unrest, differential rights and envy, a platform that would have been all too familiar in the 1920s and 30s, set out then using the racist rhetoric also favoured by today’s unspeakable preachers.
We need to tackle the message and its extremist proponents while trusting in the good sense of people generally.

Miz S

So I guess when they figure out that the Starbucks logo features a mythological siren, they'll move the polytheists up a notch on their "To Annihilate" list? Seriously, thank you, Melanie, for publishing these ravings - we wouldn't know they existed if we relied on "traditional" news sources!!! Keep up the good work and may success crown your efforts!

Dan

Those who dismiss this and similar Jew-hating paranoia from the Islamic world as representing a "small minority" miss the point. A small but dedicated minority can be tremendously powerful. Just one example: the American Revolution was only fought by 4% of the local population. So, how small is this radical Islamic minority? Polls indicate 10% (maybe higher). That's all they need.

stanley Jerusalem

Phil - You leave me speechless, an unusual condition.
" All prawns are Cohanim".
What will my grandchildren think?

The Mullah's spiel is surreal in the extreme but they are playing to a captive audience.
The too-successful-by-half East Anglian Bishop in the early years after the Norman conquest who was 'got out of England' to convert the heathens in Northern and Central Europe to the true faith brought with him the Blood Libel of Little St.Hugh of Lincoln mentioned above until it was ingested with their mother's milk by every Catholic child for 800 years. What chance truth now?

logdon

Anyone remember this? http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/35

Note that Guardian and Government poster boy Inayat Bunglawala adds his twopeneth about 'hurt'. I see he was arrested for stabbing someone recently. I wonder how 'hurt' that must have felt? A bit more than a fantasy like this I'd imagine.

16th September, 2005 at 2:14 pm

The Sun has a bizarre story today (thanks Laura) about Burger King recalling its ice-cream cones that have a swirly design that offends some Muslims.

The design on the lid apparently looks like the word ‘Allah’ in Arabic.

One customer told the Sun the design was “sacreligious”. BK says: “As a result of feedback our supplier is amending the design.” MCB’s Inayat Bunglawala: “We commend the sensitive and prompt action to prevent any hurt being caused to the religious sensibilities of others.”

It beggars belief that the Muslim Council of Britain keep giving credence to these stupid stories with their own quotes. For god’s sake, it only gives the impression that all Muslims are hyper-sensitive. BK should never have changed this, I haven’t seen a single campaign or email about this issue.

Radical Humanist

"They [fight] not for the sake of land and security, as they claim, but for the sake of their religion"

What I find fascinating about these guys is consistently they
describe themselves when they damn their enemies.

It's deeply revealing.

Fabio P.Barbieri

Stanley Jerusalem. And there I thought I had had a good Catholic upbringing - but it seems that some important features have been missed --- Where would we be without conspiracy theorists like you telling us how awful those Papists really are? I suggest you pick up some of Maria Monk's tracts, they are quite entertaining.

For the information of everyone else, my view is that we all have one common enemy, and that to go and invent reasons to hate each other will only lead to the common enemy laughing last.

Alex Bensky

As it happens, both Little Ceasar's and Domino's pizza companies are headquartered right here in Michigan. Little Ceasar's owner is Mike Illitch and his ancestry is some kind of Balkan, I think, but definitely not Jewish. The former owner of Domino's Tom Monaghan, is a very right-wing Catholic. They aren't by any stretch of the imagination "zionist," although I take it this is not a situation in which facts actually matter.

They both owned the Detroit Tigers baseball team and shook down the public for millions to build themselves a fancy new stadium and destroy our priceless Tiger Stadium and...oh, well, that's another post.

stanley Jerusalem

Fabio P.Barbieri - I agree with you 100%. Sadly the uninformed lumpen prolateriat can only rely on the myths of their infancy since they stopped listening and reading shortly before growing hair above their testes and they KNOW that you can't trust the Hebes 'cos their mummy told them so.

phil

Fabio P.Barbieri I rather think Stanley was saying how "crazies"can lead ordinary decent people down a disastrous path -the Pope has made it clear in modern times how the relationship should be between Catholics and Jews,both of whom have leaders with sense and responsibility as do the Protestants too.

For my pal Stanley you will note I left out the lobsters who have no idea how to daven :) -You can also tell your grandchildren that the monkfish want to join as mere Israelites ,but so far have refused circumcision .I do not blame them either

-May I say I have the utmost respect for the people of Islam who see their religion as one of peace and love and the rest can go to hell where if there is a G-d they surely will finish .One man made it clear to the lunatics in Luton exactly how they were shaming the Muslims who wish to live in peace with us -he was a very brave man and should be applauded as a real representative of the Muslim religion ,not these abusive idiots who have disgraced not only themselves but our flag.Theirs was a day of infamy that we will remember for a long time . Hopefully more will take the example of that man and realise that he sets the example for what Islam really stands for, I salute him .

david skinner

A picture is worth a thousand words:
http://tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/

stanley Jerusalem

Fabio P.Barbieri - I have invented nothing.Don't you know that conspiracy theories commence with filth like this? The origin of the story of Little St.Hugh is sadly fact. It was invented to increase the takings over Eastertide of Lincoln Cathedral which was in competition with other wealthy East Anglian Churches to attract the greatest number of [paying] pilgrims. However the Bishop of Lincoln was so successful that the King saw him as a threat to his crown and had him shipped off as described above. It's sadly no myth and explains how the Blood Libel of Jews killing Christian children to use their blood for making unleavened bread spread across Northern and Central Europe in the Middle Ages.The fact that Jews did no such thing and that anyone with the most basic knowledge of Jewish dietary laws would know that blood was an absolute no no even from kosher beasts.But to the superstitious illiterates of the 12th Century who were frightened of their own shadows this provided a perfect set of scapegoats for their pathetic feudally impoverished existence.
The Papists have nearly 2000 years of cruel prejudice, intolerance and torture to ask forgiveness for and Jews the world over know that antisemitism lurks below the surface of the most urbane and civilised of them. It was ever thus unfortunately and is a perfect explanation of why the current wave of antisemitism appears to have been so cheerfully embraced by seemingly civilised individuals and groups.Martin Luther [ the original one] was no less antisemitic than his Roman enemies and the fervour with which Jews were persecuted by Protestants through the ages is no less than their Catholic contemporaries. Bearing this is mind, I take no delight in attempting to clarify the origins of today's antisemitism as uncomfortable as it may make some of you feel. The fact that Islam is now waving the same flag will not put Christians of any denomination in the same bed as them. It will only be a short time before Christians find themselves being treated to the same invective and contumely as the Jews from the extremists of Jihad.

stanley Jerusalem

Phil- you're right too!
BTW I knew a crayfish that could sing Kol Nidrei and my Auntie Annie used to fillet plaice to the tune of Adon Olam. Does that count?

Adam B.

An Iranian TV documentary alleged that "Pepsi" stands for "Pay every penny support Israel."

You won't hear about this level of paranoia and hatred in many parts of the Islamic world on the BBC.

Utter madness.

Gautam

These are not clerics, these are prized morons. What can one say? It might be interesting to find out what percentage of, say, the Egyptian population believes such arrant nonsense as Salama Abd Al-Qawis spout.

In India, there might be no dearth of such funny caps. Fortunately not many Muslims look to them as any kind of leaders. A very large mass of Indian Muslims completely rejects such hate-mongers. The question is whether we must judge Muslims by the rabid and unstable clerics or by the more evolved -- like the Sufis -- examples of the people of the faith. There's so obviously a need to discover the peaceful face of Islam. The sort of peace one gets at a dargah in any place in UP or Rajasthan. Where there are more Hindus at the graves of Khwajas and Hazrats than Muslims.

Douglas Bass

The current Starbucks siren logo is merely a sanitized version of the original bare-breasted Starbucks logo. Furthermore, the siren has nothing whatsoever to do with Moby Dick, as there is no mention of the word siren in the entire book.

It is an urban legend that Starbucks is named after Mr. Starbuck in Moby Dick, and that Mr. Starbuck was fond of coffee. The word coffee is mentioned exactly six times in the entire book.

This post I wrote in April 2006 will tell you more than you really wanted to know about Starbucks, Starbuck, the siren logo, and Moby Dick

Isaac

Jason from AZ: there was one Nobel prize - Arafat shared the Peace prize.
What a peace.

isaac

Jason from AZ: correction. Nagib Mahfouz awarded Nobel prize for literature in 1988.

isaac

A few days ago, on this blog, 'Night Closes in', regarding the 'UN proposal to criminalise ‘defamation of religion’'. Does anyone think that the Muslims will stop there attacks on Jews and Judaism? Does anyone think that any country, most of all UK or US will take them to court for that?

phil

Stanley Jerusalem-- sorry -aunt Annie is out, but I had a Dover sole that could do ain caelouhanu -my uncles Labrador could lay tefillin ,oh and by the way when someone asked pres Clinton if he had ever laid tefillin ,he asked what her second name was as he had forgotten. Stanley I realise this is little irreverent but I get sick of the seriousness of the situation that this world is going through ,so I would rather treat these stupid clerics with the disdain that I feel for them -meanwhile we can have a little fun :)

simone bacchini

I only know that Starbacks sells disgusting coffee; now, if the pious Mohameddans start boycotting it I'll have to begin drinking it, like I had to read the dreadful Satanic Verses to show support for freedom of speech. Oh My!

B Team

Guys - you think the Starbucks one is bad, check this out:

Top 10 Video clips from the Middle Ages.. i mean.. Middle East:

http://timesonline.typepad.com/comment/2009/03/1dial-113-and-t.html

Linda Smith

Phil, you posted "..I have the utmost respect for the people of Islam who see their religion as one of peace and love...... he sets the example for what Islam really stands for".

What are your reasons for asserting that Islam REALLY stands for peace and love?

Who decides what Islam (or any other religion) REALLY stands for?

Dixon

Anyone who is tickled by this will love Borat The Movie, if you havent already seen it.

Andre

This morning we see Mr Brown urging Iran to behave nicely and then it can join the nuclear domestic power club. What madness is this? Gordon brown seems to be in complete denial of the threat posed by radical Islamic terrorism.

stanley Jerusalem

Phil - you do realise that we are plagiarising the Monty Python 'Halibut' sketch no matter how subconsciously.
On the matter of light relief I concur. That they are mad does not preclude from the ignorant following them like lemmings[hopefully over the nearest cliff].

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Simone bacchini, I am tea person but Starbucks coffee is okay it depend what you buy, I like the "Latte with the vanilla shot syrup", it is sweet and yummy, try that and let me know what you think, and it is good idea to visit the cafe just to make the Islamic extremist people happy,

Anyhow, let me have my cup of tea now
Ciao!

The muslim who is inside a Christian

I am muslim but secretly Christian, I pretend to be muslim when I am around the muslims, but in my heart I am Christian, i think the Christian religion is peaceful and respects individuality, I am not the only muslim who is like this but a lot of muslims are becoming like this, we are fed up Islam and we want to be free, and do what the Christian people are doing
I like music, ballet, going to the cafes and Pubs I don't mind going to Starbucks just to support it,

phil

Linda Smith
March 17th, 2009 12:48am

Phil, you posted "..I have the utmost respect for the people of Islam who see their religion as one of peace and love...... he sets the example for what Islam really stands for".

What are your reasons for asserting that Islam REALLY stands for peace and love?

Who decides what Islam (or any other religion) REALLY stands for?
LINDA I should have made it clear by saying "those people of Islam,who see etc " sorry for the confusion .You will have noted what I said about the rest.

phil

Margaret Muller-Johansson have you tried Illy coffee-it is the best ,and first flush darjeeling -no milk or sugar -wonderful with digestives -taken straight after the fish that can sing prayers and do not incite young people to kill is truly a life experience :)

Ronnie

I've just returned to my office, from a meeting in Stabucks and the stupid, pyjama-wearing medievalists can all go to hell.

Linda Smith, if you are not careful you will start to push your head up your own back-side. And that would be a great pity.

Linda

Ronnie, you posted "Linda Smith, if you are not careful you will start to push your head up your own back-side. And that would be a great pity."

Please explain what you mean.

stanley Jerusalem

Linda - Please tell me you don't want diagrams. Please.

Ronnie

What I mean, Linda, is that I normally enjoy reading your posts. I may not always agree with you, naturally, but they are always lucid and reasonable.

In my view you've rather lost the plot with this intervention,

'What are your reasons for asserting that Islam REALLY stands for peace and love?

Who decides what Islam (or any other religion) REALLY stands for?'

I just wonder where it came from and how long you will give Phil to answer this rather open-ended two-part question.

I'd love to see the marking scheme.

Stanley, you will be sent to the corner if you persist.

Linda Smith

Ronnie: I am a professionally qualified lecturer in Psychology - ie I'm trained to think critically!!!

Andre

The muslim who is inside a Christian
May God bless you and give you courage.
Jesus said, 'I am come that you might have life and have it in abundance.'
I pray this will be true for you

Dixon

Linda Smith
March 17th, 2009 1:06pm
Ronnie: I am a professionally qualified lecturer in Psychology - ie I'm trained to think critically!!!"

If thats true Linda, why could you not look at Phil's comment critically and critically discern with your immense critical faculties that he was being...quite obviously ... ironic, rather than proceeding as you did to treat aspects of his irony as though he meant them literally.

Looking at what followed I can see a terrible and quite incomprehensible tangle has followed, not in the least clarified by your standing up and shouting "My brain is BIGGER than your dads brain."

Oh, BTW, Ive published three books on my specialist aspect of psychology tallying half a million words and been several times on TV and radio shows to demonstrate my "crtical faculties" in this connection. So there!

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Linda Smith, you sound a professional don't worry about Ronnie,

phil, that will be the next project, Darjeeling with no Sugar, I prefer with Baklava or Halvah parfait

Brian Moshe

Brian wrote:
Brian
March 16th, 2009 7:58am

Brian, I have respectfully asked you already on a previous thread if you can call yourself Brian with a second name.

I used to be a regular poster on Melanie's threads from the very begining of her blog.

I posted originally as Brian but became Brian Moshe after Brian O'Connor and Brian from London began regular posting.

I can't insist that you add an appendage to your name to avoid confusion with me but I object to being mistaken for you and for this reason no longer feel free to comment here.

Please could you add another name to your first name.

Fabio P.Barbieri

Stanley Jerusalem - sure it's all true. So was the Maria Monk affair. So very true. Do go on hugging your hatreds to your heart, they are so comforting.

P.S.:I could answer your nonsense, but the brick outhouse you have in place of a head would not allow any facts in. When you are so obviously resolved to hate and hate and hate, anything I do or say would be perfectly useless. So, as I say, do go on warming yourself with your hatred.

Ronnie

Linda, we all have choices in life.

Original Tony

I think Jewish influence in the world is pretty high considering folk like the Rothschilds are reportedly worth 20 trillion. And the Oppenheimers?

That does not mean to say they are using this wealth to destroy Islam, I do not believe that, but they will always be very, very influential in the world.

I would say this drives the jealousy behind many people who foolishly hate Jews

Ronnie

Fabio, you seem a very calm, level-headed sort of chap.

Ronnie

But, Brian Moshe, you are Brian Moshe and Brian is simply Brian. Is that a problem?

Groucho Marx once threatened to sue Warner Brothers for using 'Brothers' in revenge for Warner Brothers suing the Marx Brothers over a film title (I forget which one). You see where I'm going with this?

Pay attention, An American, I said Groucho.

Linda, I discern a very rich seam of research material for you in these threads...

Dixon

Fabio Barberrerilli, never mind brick oats houses, those who live in glass houses should think twice before insulting other posters... when they have a pompous sounding silly name like that. Personally, I would not want to labour on through life under the burden of being laughed at for having such a name. Changing it involves a very simple legal procedure, takes about half an hour and costs fifty quid.

You seem to have a problem with hate. I love hating things. I hate alkmost everything. In fact, I DO hate every thing. I hate the fact of existence itself. Hate is a good, solid, honest, unequivocating, un-duplicitous, sincere emotion. Theres no arguing with hate. It splits no hairs. It bows to no heirs. There are no airs and graces about it.Its genuine. Its real.

On the other hand, that name of yours....

Linda Smith

Dixon, I disagree with your post to me of 17 March 2:08pm.

I cannot see that Phil was being ironic. In his own response (17 Mar 9:18am_, Phil again asserted that "the people of Islam who see their religion as one of peace and love.." decide what Islam (or any other religion) REALLY stands for.

Doubtless, the militant Islamists claim they decide what Islam REALLY stands for, ie subjugation of non-moslems by the sword. Do you think that is synonomous with peace and love?

Dixon, in your opinion, who decides what Islam (or any other religion) REALLY stands for?

Linda Smith

Ronnie, I enjoy reading your posts because they make me laugh, as I am sure you intend. Making jokes is fun and sometimes deflates one's opponent. But the only way to demolish an argument is to explose its flaws.

For my part, I am a critical thinker. People throw out all sorts of statements and arguments which on the surface appear reasonable, but are often built on false assumptions. When I read comments which I think are illogical or based on false assumptions, I will challenge them as I think fit.

I challenged Phil because in his post he was claiming that Islam REALLY stands for peace and love. How does Phil know what Islam REALLY stands for? Who knows and who decides what Christianity or Judaism REALLY stands for? If there was unity, there wouldn't be Sunnis, Shias, Wahabis or Catholics, Protestants etc etc. at loggerheads with each other.

I think these sorts of issues merit examination because they are at the heart of the discussions on these threads.

I hope that answers your question "I just wonder where it came from..."

EC

Linda Smith: "who decides what Islam (or any other religion) REALLY stands for?"

The clergy and their "scripture." Heavily edited, often rewritten and sometimes wholly fictitious. The justification and preservation of their power and parasitical hold over their "flock."

Ronnie

Thank you Linda. I agree with you on the matter of critical thinking in general but so much of what is written here is uncritical that humour is often the only response. Sometimes the absurd is not as absurd as it seems.

As to your challenging Phil, I suppose that I felt your questions were too wide and unanswerable in the context of what he was trying to say. That's why it seemed that you were allowing the idea to run away from you, as so many others here have done here. I genuinely hoped that was not the case.

phil

Linda maybe its my unclear statement which I attempted to clarify ,so I will do it again-I used the words THOSE ,and there are some who do view their religion as one of peace and love ,I neither said nor meant ALL, nor was I being ironic ,just factual -please read it again -I am not an apologist for the ones who use their religion for hatred ,but those who stand up for decency must be supported -now I am sorry I have caused a furore with some of my favourite posters through confusion so I hope all of you will settle down and let peace and love prevail again at least amongst THOSE:) of us who like one another .

phil

Linda "challenged Phil because in his post he was claiming that Islam REALLY stands for peace and love. How does Phil know what Islam REALLY stands for"--now i hope you realise I was not making such a claim ,just that the man in Luton needed recognition for what he did and those like him too-at least I have so far avoided a verbal avalanche from our female defender of the faith ,but I am expecting a massive rant at any moment:)

Dixon

Linda, I was basing my reading of Phil on its place in the context of his prior statements over preceding months that I have been coming here. If it transpires that he misrepresented himself, that does not make irony any the less the appropriate interpretation of his choice of words, rather had no such irony been intended, then he obviously slipped up in phrasing it that way.

As for my or anyone elses OPINION of what "really" constitutes a representative manifestation of a religion, I think its a pointless question. An "opinion" reflects the views of the person who harbours it, regardless of the facts or realities that count. So my "opinion" on this matter is of no importance, any more than yours. Its what the bandanna-headed boogars DO that counts!

But if you must, my "opinion" is that the real Muslims are those who are consistent with the Koran. There are no "moderate" Muslims, only REAL Muslims and lay people of Muslim descent. Like my neighbour from Libya who used to drink like a fish at the pub up the road. Or the "Muslims" who made up the majority of customers at a pub in Slough I was at last year. Thats the kind of "Muslim" I like!

Linda Smith

Dixon: how on earth can any Moslem be "consistent with the Koran"?

I've never read it but, from what I've learned from other posters, earlier verses are superceded by later additions. I'm not sure if those later additions are in the Koran itself or in later add- ons/commentaries. If you are right, then the REAL Moslems are the ones who want to obey the commands to subjugate all us infidels by the sword, ie the militant Islamists are the REAL Moslems.

I expect like all the different factions of Christians and Jews, all the different factions in Islam claim they are the REAL Moslems.

re: your comment "That's the kind of 'Muslim' I like". I think that's what Phil meant when he asserted that peace loving Moslems were the REAL ones.

Linda Smith

Ronnie (18 Mar 8:52am) ""I felt your questions were too wide and unaswerable....it seemed that you were allowing the idea to run away from you, as so many others here have done here."

I was trying to make Phil, and other people, think and reflect on what they post here. The questions seem wide and ananswerable because they are difficult. You commented earlier that my posts "are always lucid and reasonable". Believe me. it's not easy! I spend ages turning my brain inside out. It's the philosopher in me.

It is important not to get lost in the wood, but to keep hold of the big picture. Always be sure that your opponent's, and your own, basic assumptions are correct - why bother arguing with an opponent on his terms when you can demolish his argument by exposing his false assumptions. Make sure your own basic assumptions are not false, or your opponent will demolish them.

To beat your opponent here, and there's plenty of them, you have to think through so that they cannot falsify your position. A bit like doing science or law where the intention is to present a case that cannot be falsified.

Dixon

Linda Smith
March 18th, 2009 4:54pm
Dixon: how on earth can any Moslem be "consistent with the Koran"?
I've never read it but, from what I've learned from other posters, earlier verses are superceded by later additions. I'm not sure if those later additions are in the Koran itself or in later add- ons/commentaries. If you are right, then the REAL Moslems are the ones who want to obey the commands to subjugate all us infidels by the sword, ie the militant Islamists are the REAL Moslems. "

So much for your "critical faculties", you declare a judgement about the practical import of something in the same passage in which you confess you know nothing about it and then continue to demonstrate that you REALLY DO know nothing about it.

First up, before spouting off all over this forum about Muslims and Islam you ought at least have a browse through the Koran! Crikey. You have muddled up all sorts of things in your "critical reasoning" quoted above. Allow me to try to explain:

There are no "earlier" or "later" editions of the Koran ( although there are various translations from various times ). The Koran, is the Koran is the Koran. gottit. THEN there is the Hadith, which you have got it muddled up with. An ongoing dialectic of critique and synthesis of rulings derived from the sayings and actions of The Prophet. The latter among these supercede the earlier. But they do not alter the rules stated in Koran itself or the certitude of anything stated explicitly therein.

Somehow you have muddled these things together on the basis of "what Ive read others say here " and what a hash of it you have accomplished. Half baked and not even half informed. You obviously havent a clue about the Koran or Islam. The whole point of the one is that it is based...RELIGIOUSLY ( indeed ) ...on the other. The Koran is utterly unlike The Bible. It is a blow by blow minutely detailed set of instructions on every aspect of how to live, do business, conduct relationships, marriage, inheritance, property rights, etc.

When you say "how on earth can any Moslem be "consistent with the Koran"? " this makes my jaw drop! That is the very purpose of The Book.

Its OK for any Tom, Dick or Harry to not know this stuff...why should they...but YOU are on here prating about the meaning of all this when you clearly know not a damn thing about it...and then patronising the rest of us with pompous guff about your "critical reasoning" ability.

I am offended.

phil

linda!!!!!"I was trying to make Phil, and other people, think and reflect on what they post here."I am not your opponent ,and in this instance with respect ,it is you who has misinterpreted my words ,so really I do not need beating .

Ronnie

Hmmm, Linda. You suppose that you can form a position that is copper-bottomed and I don't think that is possible.

There are many people who regard their positions, no matter how strange, as irrefutable and that's why they quickly lose their tempers and become abusive and amusing. I don't think it's worth worrying too much about. We are dealing with opinion here, nothing more.

And the odd pre-set agenda, of course.

Ronnie

OK guys, lets not start up again. We don't need a sledgehammer to crack this nut.

Linda, I think you read too much into Phil's general humanitarian point and nothing in Mel's world of blogs is absolute.

Phil, perhaps a little beating, now and again, might not go amiss.

Dixon, pub!

phil

I think Linda is blushing now
Ronnie :)

Linda Smith

Phil: If I misinterpreted your words, as you say, I still don't understand exactly what you meant. Anyway, you're not my opponent; you're my ally.

Linda Smith

Ronnie,

You wrote "We are dealing with opinion here, nothing more. Wrong. We are dealing with opinion based on fact.

You also wrote "you suppose that you can form a position that is copper-bottomed and I don't think that is possible."

I try to destroy the apparent copper-bottom of my opponent's argument. But I've got to make sure that my own argument is as strong as possible so that he cannot do the same to me.

The stuff we debate on this blog is serious. Not everybody is entrenched in a pre-set agenda and some of those people get misled or swayed by sophistry - like the audience of the BBC News. If our serious commenting has no influence on those who read it, why bother to comment? Or would you prefer that we all just play it for laughs?

Linda Smith

Dixon: from Wikipedia on Sunnis and Shias:
"Shia Muslims also feel animosity towards some of the companions of the Prophet Muhammad, based on their positions and actions during the early years of discord about leadership in the community. Many of these companions (Abu Bakr, Umar, Aisha, etc.) have narrated traditions about the Prophet's life and spiritual practice. Shia Muslims reject these traditions (hadith) and do not base any of their religious practices on the testimony of these individuals. This naturally gives rise to some differences in religious practice between the two groups. These differences touch all detailed aspects of religious life: prayer, fasting, pilgrimage, etc."

If Sunnis and Shias are all REAL Moslems because their lives are consistent with the Koran which gives "a blow by blow minutely detailed set of instructions on every aspect of how to live....", how can one group accept the hadith and the other group reject it? Sunnis and Shias hate and kill each other. Which of the two groups are the REAL Moslems?

Dixon you are the one who is conceptually confused, not me.

Ronnie

OK Linda.

There is a constantly evolving set of political, economic and social events. They often 'interact' with each other, thereby changing their individual and collective characteristics as time passes.

Not one single political situation remains static, each is like the changing shape of a rain cloud.

As a result of these constantly changing circumstances it is, in my view, impossible to nail down something that could be called an absolute and truthful understanding of what is actually going on because no-one possesses all the relevant information at any given time, regardless of their intellectual agility. That is why ideologies have a limited shelf-life and always become obsolete.

We are therefore left with an almost limitless range of opinion which, if people remain alert, can change in light of developing circumstances. It is therefore our particular interpretation of events, or opinion, that we are projecting. Why? Because it is eternally interesting and a function of our desire to discuss and exchange ideas.

Opponents! If I were standing as a candidate for elected office, the other candidates would be my opponents because we would all be working toward a prize that only one of us can have.

It is fair to say that An American and I do not share a unified interpretation of world events. However, I regard her, respectfully, as a correspondent in the endless human discourse, not an opponent. We've never met and never will but I find her views interesting, stimulating and usually well made nonetheless.

There are many ways of making a point and humour is one of them. I sometimes find many of the views expressed here to be absurd. Deliberate expressions of unreality, divorced from the messy and complex 'chaos' that real world events are. In my weakness, I resort to trying to point out the absurdity of some people's positions, it's all I can do. However, where (in my view) credible points are made then I try to engage with them seriously and with respect. Unfortunately I'm just as suscpetible to losing my temper as everyone else.

I also dislike gratuitous rudeness and personal abuse and I am perfectly happy attacking those who can't be civil when discussing these very important issues.

beloved

re: The Coca Cola and Pepsi companies and all their product and Kentucky Fried Chicken?

WAIT! Those are Southern Inventions to Civilization, you numb-skulls! Southerners will not appreciate this one little bit. It could start a war.

It should start a war!

We're lucky the Muslims haven't discovered Moon pies, yet. What would they say about the devious expansion of flavors to Orange, or how about the mix of banana WITH vanilla in the same box!? How does a good Muslim discern the difference? Only devout Southerners know. Devout Jews cannot help them because they do not eat Moon pies.

Jews do eat chicken, though. So, I can see SOME connection.

The Muslims can have Pepsi. Pepsi is too sweet without the famous acid kick that Coke has. (In a blind test I could tell you the name of any soda, probably even the factory!) What do the Muslim clerics say about the can versus plastic bottle controversy? Coke fans know Coke is better in a can. The uninformed may not know why. Plastic containers ruin Coke's character, and nothing saves Pepsi except an overflowing landfill to toss it in.

I love modern life and appreciate those from every religion who have contributed to it, although I have long suspected that Pepsi was a Northern conspiracy of Quaker origin.

Have I mentioned that Southerners will not appreciate any of this? They don't have much else to lay claim to besides Jimmy Carter.

Linda Smith

Ronnie: I largely agree with what you say in this morning's post.

I use the term opponent in relation to posters who make "DELIBERATE expressions of unreality, divorced from the messy and complex 'chaos' that real world events are" as you neatly put it."

I can't abide clever clogs who think they can outwit me. The recently departed Derek Blades springs to mind.

phil

Linda :):):)no prob
I will try just this last time to say I regard with respect those Muslims who are trying to live in peace with us and who take the trouble to criticise the militants -as in Luton -Those people who go to the trouble of putting their peaceful view of Islam are the ones I prefer to think represent their faith ,but as a colleague once said to me when I challenged him on his interpretation of the ratio decidendi of a case (and he was wrong)"I am not the pope you know .I am not infallible" and then stormed off --its only my opinion and as everything here is ,its for "gornisht"

Fabio P.Barbieri

Dixon, one day you might come to understand what funny is and how funny works. Meanwhile, you are just plain embarrassing. I am glad I will never be one of your friends.

Chingford Man

And there's me thinking the new Queen Esther was going to be Sarah Palin.